Draft Wales Bill

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

On 18 November, the Government announced their response to the Silk commission’s part 1 recommendations on fiscal devolution to Wales.

I am pleased today to publish the draft Wales Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny. The Bill implements almost all of the recommendations from the Silk commission’s first report on the devolution of tax and borrowing powers to the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government.

Specifically, it will enable the Assembly to legislate about devolved taxes—a Welsh tax on transactions involving interests in land (replacing stamp duty land tax in Wales) and a Welsh tax on disposals to landfill (replacing landfill tax in Wales); it establishes a mechanism by which the Assembly can trigger a referendum in Wales on the question of whether a part of income tax in Wales should be devolved; and, subject to a vote in favour in a referendum, the Bill will enable the Assembly to set a Welsh rate of income tax, in the same way as the Scottish rate of income tax is set in Scotland.

These changes will give Wales more fiscal autonomy, and will make the Assembly and the Welsh Government more accountable to people in Wales for raising the money they spend.

The draft Bill also grants the Welsh Government new powers to borrow for capital expenditure and extends the circumstances in which they can borrow in the short term to manage their budget. These powers will enable the Welsh Government to borrow to invest in renewing Wales’s infrastructure and support growth in the Welsh economy.

In addition, as I announced to the House in March, the draft Wales Bill sets out how we intend to implement important changes to elections to the National Assembly for Wales. The draft Bill extends Assembly terms permanently from four to five years, making it less likely that Assembly elections will coincide with Westminster parliamentary elections in future; it will remove the prohibition on candidates in Assembly elections standing in a constituency and on a regional list; and it will prohibit “double jobbing”, by preventing MPs from also being Assembly Members.

The draft Bill also makes minor changes to the Welsh devolution settlement that we have agreed with the Welsh Government. These include changing the name of the Welsh Assembly Government to the “Welsh Government”; providing for HM Treasury to set an aggregate borrowing limit for local housing authorities in Wales and for the Welsh Ministers to set limits for each local housing authority; and enabling the Law Commission to provide advice and information to Welsh Ministers on devolved matters.

Taken together, this is a significant package of reforms which provides the opportunity for devolved governance in Wales to be fairer, more accountable and more able to support economic growth in Wales.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

David Jones Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Since the general election, the Wales Office has made investment in infrastructure its No. 1 priority to deliver growth in the Welsh economy. This Government have already committed over £2.25 billion to new infrastructure that will benefit Wales, directly or indirectly. We are spending almost £2 billion to modernise the rail network, including electrifying the Great Western main line to Swansea and the railways serving the south Wales valleys. We are investing £250 million to build a new prison in north Wales that will create up to 1,000 new jobs and require a supply chain that will bring an estimated £28 million a year more into the local economy. We have also committed £57 million to bring superfast broadband to Wales, a key element of a modern infrastructure network. Alongside that, Hitachi’s investment in new nuclear at Wylfa Newydd is a great opportunity to create jobs and drive economic growth across north Wales.

Earlier this month, I confirmed in a written statement to the House that we would enable the Welsh Government to use their existing borrowing powers to start work as soon as possible on the sorely needed upgrade to the M4 around Newport, tackling the congestion that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has described as

“a foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy”.

Today, in making our full response to the Silk commission’s recommendations, the Government are unveiling a new and extensive package of financial powers that will be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government. I would like to commend my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and Jane Hutt, the Welsh Minister for Finance, for the positive and collaborative approach taken in agreeing this package of powers, which demonstrates the strength of the United Kingdom, and the flexibility and adaptability of devolution within our Union.

The Silk commission made 33 recommendations, 31 of which were for the Government to consider. Today we are accepting, in full or in part, all but one. We are devolving many new financial powers to the National Assembly and the Welsh Government, potentially giving the Welsh Government control over more than £3 billion of tax revenue, with commensurate levels of borrowing. We are providing the Welsh Government with additional tools to invest in the areas they are responsible for, to enable them to upgrade Wales’s infrastructure and help to quicken the pace of economic growth. This will facilitate the improvement of Wales’s deteriorating road network—not only the M4, which I have mentioned, but the other key Welsh trans-European route, the north Wales expressway.

The devolution of tax and borrowing powers will also make the Assembly and the Welsh Government more accountable to the people of Wales who elect them. Since devolution, the Assembly and the Welsh Government have been accountable only for how they spend taxpayers’ money; they will now become more accountable for how they raise it. The Government’s response to the Silk commission’s first report builds on the announcement made by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this month, and sets out in detail the devolved financial powers we are giving to the National Assembly for Wales. We will give Welsh Ministers borrowing powers, so they can invest in the capital infrastructure I have described. We will devolve landfill tax and stamp duty land tax in Wales, ensuring that the Welsh Government have an independent funding stream to pay back the money they borrow.

We will also provide for a referendum to take place, so that people in Wales can decide whether some of their income tax should be devolved to the Welsh Government. Subject to the approval of the people of Wales in a referendum, we will deduct 10p from each of the main UK income tax rates in Wales, with the Welsh Government able to set an unrestricted Welsh rate of income tax for all Welsh taxpayers. This is consistent with the system being introduced in Scotland and will increase the accountability of the Welsh Government, while avoiding significant risks to UK revenues that would result from different Welsh rates for each band.

We will also fully devolve non-domestic business rates raised in Wales, so that the Welsh Government budget benefits more directly from growth in Wales; enable the National Assembly for Wales to create new taxes, with the UK Government’s consent; and devolve the tools to manage these new powers. A cash reserve will be created that the Welsh Government can add to when revenues are high and utilise when they are below forecast. We will also provide the Welsh Government with limited current borrowing powers to deal with shortfalls if their cash reserve is insufficient.

I was pleased that Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, welcomed the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement earlier this month. This package of powers gives the Welsh Government additional tools to invest in Wales to rejuvenate the Welsh economy, which has languished behind the rest of the United Kingdom for far too long. This package will make the Assembly and the Welsh Government more accountable to the people they serve and place important taxation levers in the hands of the Welsh Government, which, if used wisely, can help to make Wales a more prosperous place. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity for Wales. I hope that the Welsh Government will rise to the challenge and look beyond the M4 to invest wisely and strategically across the whole of Wales. I will place a copy of the response in the Libraries of both Houses, and I commend this statement to the House.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement on this historic occasion. It is almost a year since the Silk Commission produced its report and 16 years since the last time a Conservative Secretary of State for Wales made a statement in this House—better late than never. Labour Members certainly welcome the acceptance of the Silk recommendations, especially coming from a Secretary of State who once described devolution as constitutional damage.

I would like to thank Paul Silk and his team for their work in producing the report. That report and the Government’s response to it are of enormous significance to the people of Wales—a part of the UK that has been harder hit by this Tory Government than anywhere else. Welsh wages have fallen faster and further than anywhere else in the UK, the Welsh budget has been cut by £1.7 billion by the current Tory Government, and we have seen energy and other bills rise higher and faster than elsewhere. That is the reality of the context of today’s announcement.

Because of those cuts, the Welsh Government have sought borrowing powers and agreed with the Silk recommendations that Wales should be able to exercise those powers, as Scotland and Northern Ireland do at present. We welcome the confirmation that Wales will in future have the capacity to borrow in order to invest in infrastructure, but will the Secretary of State clarify some of the many details that are left outstanding after today’s announcement?

First, will he clarify exactly when he expects that package of borrowing to be in place for the initial tranche of investment in the M4 and other roads? More importantly, will he tell us about the process by which that level of borrowing will be agreed? The Government previously indicated that the devolution of the minor taxes such as stamp duty and landfill tax, which are being devolved today, would be sufficient to trigger significant borrowing powers for the Welsh Government. Today’s statement, however, seems to suggest that that borrowing would now be contingent on income tax-varying powers being taken up in Wales. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether that is the case and say how much borrowing will be released once the minor taxes are devolved? Will he further confirm whether a mechanism, a set of methods and a formula similar to that used in Scotland under the Scotland Act 2012, which affords about £230 million of borrowing to Scotland, would be the method employed in Wales?

We welcome the devolution of the minor taxes—stamp duty and landfill tax—as this gives the Welsh Government the capacity to make some changes to the Welsh economy and to invest in order to grow and create jobs. Prior to the introduction of these new Welsh taxes, we would need to be very clear about whether the Welsh people would be better or worse off. That is our primary concern, so will the Secretary of State explain exactly how the process and methods will be agreed and set for offsetting the block grant by the amount devolved to Wales under the minor taxes?

The most significant aspect of today’s announcement relates to income tax and the proposal that the Government will legislate for a referendum in which the Welsh people may be asked if they want a proportion of income tax to be devolved to Wales. Our position on income tax is that we support the proposal as laid out by Silk on the basis of a “triple lock”, whereby we will judge whether the people of Wales will be worse off, we will see through the referendum whether the people of Wales want to take that responsibility and we will see whether fair funding is agreed for Wales. That remains our position today.

It is a significant that, in making today’s announcement, the Government have rejected Silk’s proposal to devolve the income tax bands independently of one another. Can the Secretary of State confirm why he has rejected that recommendation? The Government’s written statement suggests the reason is that the UK Government have discovered an interest in the progressivity of the UK tax system and are concerned that devolving those bands independently of one another might reduce that progressivity. That is ironic from a Government who have cut taxes for the wealthiest people in Wales. Will the right hon. Gentleman further confirm that the leader of the Welsh Conservatives in Cardiff Bay has said that he would use the tax powers only for the wealthiest by cutting only the 40% band, thus continuing the anti-progressive policies being pursued in Westminster?

I noted from the media today that the Secretary of State, in contrast, would cut all the bands by 1%. He will know that that would result in a £200 million shortfall in the Welsh Assembly’s budget. Will he tell us exactly how he would fill that shortfall, or, alternatively, tell us which services he suggests that the Welsh Government should cut to make the tax cut affordable?

May I ask the Secretary of State about fair funding? Last year the Government said that there was evidence of convergence in funding between Wales and England. Today’s statement commits them to

“review relative levels of funding for Wales and England in advance of each spending review and, if convergence is forecast to resume, to discuss options to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner.”

Will the Secretary of State tell us exactly what the result of those reviews will be? If there is evidence of convergence, will action be taken? Will we see what Paul Silk wanted, namely a review of the Barnett formula?

Without a hint of irony, the statement provides for the Government to give Wales a facility to save any “surplus revenues” that it might have lying around. Given that the Welsh budget has been cut by £1.7 billion over the last three years, can the Secretary of State tell us when that surplus is expected to materialise? Or have we just been given another set of false promises by a Government who do not believe in the Welsh people, and will not deliver for them? Is today another day on which we should beware Tories bearing gifts?

[Mr Jones]

I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for what I think was a welcome for my announcement. However, we heard the predictable preamble about Wales having been hit harder by the Government than any other part of the United Kingdom. In fact, the grant to the Welsh Government has been reduced proportionately less than that of any other Whitehall spending Department. Given that we are living in times of extreme difficulty—caused to no small extent by the last Labour Government—I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome the support that this Government have given the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly.

The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific questions, the first few of which related to when the borrowing powers would be made available. I am pleased to be able to tell him that, as was announced in my written ministerial statement, the Welsh Government have already been given assurances that they can negotiate with the Treasury for borrowing powers in respect of the M4 and the north Wales expressway to take effect immediately. We will fund that by allowing the Welsh Government’s current borrowing powers to be used without any adverse impact on the departmental expenditure limit.

The hon. Gentleman welcomed the devolution of taxes. The two larger taxes that are being devolved are landfill tax and stamp duty land tax. That will of itself provide a funding stream against which the Welsh Assembly Government can borrow, but we want income tax to be devolved as well. The hon. Gentleman is right: I do support the devolution of income tax. I urge the Welsh Assembly Government to trigger the referendum as soon as they can, because the Conservative party will be campaigning vociferously for a yes vote in that referendum, and, furthermore, for a cut in income tax.

The hon. Gentleman made a point that revealed the poverty of the Labour party’s ambition. We believe that devolution should be used to give a competitive edge to Wales, and that the powers that are devolved should be used to make Wales a more prosperous place. Very far from wanting the tax cuts to apply to the wealthiest people in Wales, we would like them to apply across the board, to everybody in Wales, so that the brightest and best want to come to Wales to set up business, to make their livings and to look forward to a brighter future. That is what differentiates the Labour party from the Conservative party. Interestingly, the Welsh Finance Minister, Jane Hutt, hailed today’s announcement as

“a good deal for Wales, and a big step forward for devolution.”

However, the Eeyore-like shadow Secretary of State prefers to look for a cloud in every silver lining. He is out of step with everybody except himself.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

May I congratulate Paul Silk and the Silk commission on the excellent work they have done on part I? May I also heartily congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent response to this thoughtful piece of work? I am pleased that he has taken time in responding, because it is the right response. I am particularly delighted with the extension of borrowing powers. He will be familiar with the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government have always made excuses about why they could not improve the M4 and the A55. Does he agree with me that we should have a start-date for those improvements this week from the Labour Government down in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

May I, in turn, commend my right hon. Friend on the hard work she carried out in setting up the Silk commission in the first place? I would also like to repeat the thanks I gave in my response to the Silk commission’s recommendations for the hard work carried out by Paul Silk and his commission. The truth is, indeed, that responsibility for the maintenance and upgrade of those major routes always lay with the Welsh Assembly Government. They have in the past acknowledged that the cost of that was difficult to meet within their budget. We could not allow the deterioration of those major routes to continue indefinitely, and I therefore hope they will proceed swiftly with the upgrade of both those routes. I am pleased to see, however, that they are already consulting on the upgrade to the M4.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Timeo Tories et dona ferentes, as we say in Newport. Are the people of Newport and Wales right to be cautious about Tory promises, particularly in the light of the very small share Wales has had of the Olympic legacy? Although it was promised a larger share, it is on protozoan level. Can we have a guarantee from the Government that if the Welsh Assembly Government implement these measures, it will mean fair funding, not a continuation of underfunding?

[Mr Jones]

Well, we clearly have another representative of the Eeyore tendency in the hon. Gentleman. All I would say is that his concern is not shared by the Welsh Government who, I repeat, have said very strongly that the announcement

“represents a good deal for Wales, and a big step forward for devolution.”

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I, too, congratulate the Secretary of State on his statement today. We are very pleased that there is a consensus in the Welsh Assembly about the proposals. May I add that I hope that that consensus can spread to this place as well and that best advantage can be made of the proposals?

[Mr Jones]

Indeed, all parties in the Assembly have welcomed the announcement. The only exceptions appear to be the hon. Ladies and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches. It is essential that all parties work together in order to get a referendum as quickly as possible, so that Wales can get the tax-raising powers it needs to give it a competitive edge.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for advance sight of his statement? I also congratulate all the members of the Silk commission on the very hard and conscientious work they undertook in the past 12 months or so. I think today’s statement is something we can build on; with a little ambition, we can improve the lot of the people of Wales, rather than look for problems with it. I would like to ask one or two brief questions, however. When will the UK Government set out the clear detail on borrowing limits? Will there be separate borrowing powers from those set aside for funding the M4 relief road without the partial devolving of income tax, and will the borrowing deal to fund the M4 relief road contribute towards an overall borrowing limit?

[Mr Jones]

It is indeed contemplated that further borrowing powers will be conferred on the Assembly Government, although that will depend very much on the income stream that is available to fund that. Certainly, if there were a positive vote in the referendum on income tax, there would be that much more scope. As far as the M4 is concerned, negotiations between the Treasury and the Welsh Government are already well under way to work out the detail of how those powers will be applied.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

Today is truly an historic day, and it is great to hear these announcements from a Conservative Secretary of State. Given Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ recent assessment that the average per capita tax take in Wales is 25% less than in the UK as a whole, the only appropriate movement for income tax in Wales must surely be downwards.

[Mr Jones]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I repeat that the difference between Labour and the Conservatives is that we are ambitious for Wales, whereas Labour seems to think that Wales should be a supplicant nation for ever more. The best way to increase the economic success of Wales is to ensure that it has a competitive edge, and I believe, as does my hon. Friend, that that purpose will be best served by reducing the rate of tax.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know that many thousands of my constituents work in the city of Chester, in Eddisbury, in Manchester, in Liverpool and in Ellesmere Port. Similarly, thousands of people from all those constituencies work in my constituency in Flintshire. Has he thought through properly how the income tax-varying power might work in practice? What consultation on this matter does he intend to undertake with businesses on both sides of the border?

[Mr Jones]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, 12 months’ thought has been put into this exercise. Over the years, Wales has grown progressively poorer compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, and I hope that he will welcome and support our giving it a competitive edge through a beneficial rate of income tax. Also, he knows that it is easy to move from one side of the border to the other. That is another reason we had to think carefully before doing anything that might unbalance the economy of that important part of the world.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I greatly welcome the work of Mr Paul Silk and his commission. I also welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement as an exciting step forward for the devolution process in Wales. If meaningful fiscal accountability is to lie with the Welsh Government, it is crucial that responsibility for a significant proportion of income tax should be devolved. Does my right hon. Friend share my hope that all the political parties in the Assembly and here in Westminster will enthusiastically support the campaign for a yes vote in the referendum?

[Mr Jones]

My reading of the situation is that the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties will certainly campaign in that way, and I imagine that Plaid Cymru will do so as well. I am not so certain about the Labour party, however, although I hope that it will be bold and ambitious for Wales.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I should like to press the Secretary of State on a detail that seems to have been omitted. Under the Scotland Act 2012, the Scottish Government can borrow up to 10% of their capital budget, up to a maximum stock of £2.2 billion. I believe that the relevant figure for the financial year 2014-15 will be £230 million. Will the formula be the same for the Welsh Government?

[Mr Jones]

We certainly propose to use the Scotland Act as a model, but these matters require further negotiation, and further details will emerge in due course.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

The Secretary of State’s statement referred to the investment of £250 million to build a new prison in north Wales. May I urge him to have urgent discussions with his colleagues in the Ministry of Justice to make sure that from the moment it opens it is a completely drug-free establishment?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I am sure that that certainly would be the intention of the Ministry of Justice.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has described Opposition Members as Eeyores, so I will try to be a bit more like Tigger—a bit more optimistic—as long as he does not pooh-pooh this question. May I ask him for some more accuracy on when he expects the discussions between the Treasury and the Finance Minister in the Assembly Government to have concluded on the borrowing powers that will allow the M4 relief road to go ahead, releasing £2.1 billion into the south Wales economy?

[Mr Jones]

I am glad to see the more upbeat attitude of the hon. Gentleman. Those negotiations are continuing and, knowing both individuals involved—the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Finance Minister in the Welsh Assembly Government—I have no doubt that they have every intention of concluding them as quickly as possible.

[Mr Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State and Paul Silk on this excellent work and the statement. The Secretary of State is right not to take the advice in the puny and unworthy response of the official Opposition, but I urge him to give a good answer on the following matter. Some of us have shared economic interests across the border; as has been said, many people on either side of the border commute. Whether we are talking about the Wrexham industrial park in north Wales and the economic basis, or the Environment Agency and the river catchment areas, there is an absence of accountability—those living on the “wrong” side of the border in England cannot hold anybody in Wales to account for their decisions. At the moment, there is an absence of democratic legitimacy. Will he provide an answer on that point?

[Mr Jones]

My right hon. Friend raises a fair point, which has been made on many occasions. The devolution settlement, as currently constituted, does lead in some cases to a democratic deficit. These matters were raised on several occasions with the previous Labour Government. At the moment, my right hon. Friend is best served by finding a friendly Assembly Member who will raise the issues that are of concern to his constituents but which relate to matters on the Welsh side of the border. On the basis of the current devolution settlement, that is the best answer I can give.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State says in his statement that the National Assembly for Wales will be allowed to create new taxes with the consent of the UK Government. How does he envisage that process developing? Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer, rather than the Welsh Assembly, be deciding the tax regime in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would understand that any new taxes would need to be constituted in such a way as not to unbalance the national economy, but the response that has been given to the Silk report makes it clear that, subject to that consent, the Assembly Government will be in a position to create new taxes.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that in the Chester area the Anglo-Welsh border goes through the middle of housing estates—it goes through an urban area—and on one side of the road people are in England and on the other side people are in Wales. Significant differences in tax rates either side of the border could lead to significant strains on the local economy. What consideration has the Department given to trying to ameliorate those strains?

[Mr Jones]

I am well aware of the points my hon. Friend raises. It was for the very reason he mentions that further consultation was undertaken on the proposed devolution of stamp duty land tax; it was ultimately felt that, as a capital tax, a balance would naturally be struck. There is no doubt that were income tax to be devolved, there might be some impact overall, but in terms of the local economy I would imagine that the same people would live very close to one another, albeit on different sides of the border.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Like everybody else, I support the proposals. However, I hope that my constituents are not watching this session, because all they will be thinking about is the cost of living crisis in Wales. Hundreds of thousands of families are worrying about whether they will be able to heat or eat this winter, and yet here we are again fiddling around with the constitutional settlement. Our constituents want us to deal with the real issues that matter to them. I suggest that we get rid of the idea of having a referendum and that we spend the money instead on keeping open the Porth and Treherbert libraries.

[Mr Jones]

I am afraid that I cannot speak on behalf of the users of the Porth or the Treherbert libraries. Those are matters for the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government. None the less, those are important matters. The recommendations have been widely welcomed by all parts of the political spectrum, except of course by the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I have the greatest respect for the high office of state that my right hon. Friend holds and fills with such distinction. Wales has a Secretary of State and England does not. I fully support his efforts to devolve income tax rates to Wales and to create a competitive tax economy in Wales, but will he ensure that the administrative costs of the Wales Office are met entirely by Welsh taxpayers?

[Mr Jones]

We shall consider that interesting suggestion.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Over recent months, the Tories in the Senedd and the Liberal Democrats have pledged to alter individual tax bands should they form the next Welsh Government. Would not those specific pledges be undeliverable due to the lockstep that the Secretary of State has announced today?

[Mr Jones]

Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

There are plenty of suggestions. If that is not within the powers of the Secretary of State, perhaps he could consider once again a more flexible approach to the level of bands of income tax under his proposals.

[Mr Jones]

That is a very attractive proposition. In fact, Terfyn in Cheshire derives its name from terfyn, which means a border, so perhaps that is something that we should press. However, we have given careful consideration to this matter and believe that the lockstep proposal is the best way forward.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

After listening to the Minister’s statement, the question that looms large is whether he is proposing tax competition between different parts of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Jones]

That would certainly be attractive in many parts of Wales. Of course, in Scotland, that is precisely what is available.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the Secretary of State elaborate a little on the case-by-case process for establishing new taxes to which he referred earlier? He and I served on the Welsh Affairs Committee. I hope that he is not proposing the ghoulish resurrection of the legislative competence order process.

[Mr Jones]

Certainly not. I would imagine that, in most cases, those would be issues for negotiation between the Welsh Finance Department and the Treasury.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In the referendum to which the Secretary of State referred, will 16 and 17-year-olds be entitled to vote?

[Mr Jones]

That is very unlikely.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Wales is currently underfunded to the tune of £300 million. Why does the Secretary of State for Wales not come forward with a fair funding formula?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman will know that in October 2012 the Welsh Finance Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I announced new arrangements in Cardiff, which ensured that if there were any issue of convergence, there would be further negotiations between the Welsh Finance Department and the Treasury. [Interruption.] We believe that Barnett certainly is coming to the end of its life. The issue is to rebalance the economy, which was left in such an appalling condition by the Government of whom he was a member.

Wales (Infrastructure and Finance)

David Jones Excerpts

Friday 1st November 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I are pleased to set out the Government’s plans to facilitate infrastructure investment in Wales, in order to stimulate economic recovery and build growth in the Welsh economy.

Infrastructure in Wales has suffered from years of under-investment that, since 2010, this Government has worked hard to put right. Wales is benefiting directly and indirectly from almost £2 billion of investment to modernise the rail network, including electrifying the mainline to Swansea and the railways serving the south Wales valleys; £250 million to build a new prison in north Wales; £57 million to bring superfast broadband to Wales; and Hitachi’s investment in new nuclear at Wylfa, which is a great opportunity to create jobs and drive economic growth in north Wales.

We have also been clear about the need to work with the Welsh Government to ensure they are able to invest in infrastructure in those areas in which they take the lead, and in particular on those roads in Wales which form part of the trans-European road network—the M4 in south Wales and the north Wales expressway.

Upgrading the M4 around Newport is an urgent priority for both Governments, and I am committed to working with the Welsh Government to deliver the improvements that are required.

In October 2012 the UK Government agreed in principle that the Welsh Government should be allowed access to capital borrowing powers to invest in infrastructure in Wales, subject to an independent revenue stream being available to it to repay the money it borrows.

That agreement has informed our consideration of the recommendations made last year by the Commission on Devolution in Wales (the Silk Commission), and I can confirm that the Government will implement the key proposals in the Commission’s first report. These are:

We will give the Welsh Ministers borrowing powers, so that they can borrow money to invest in Wales;

We will devolve certain taxes, as the Silk Commission recommended to ensure the Welsh Government have an independent funding stream to pay back the money they borrow;

We will devolve landfill tax and stamp duty land tax in Wales;

And we will provide for a referendum to take place so that people in Wales can decide whether some of their income tax should be devolved, in the same way as it is in Scotland.

These measures will give the Welsh Government the tools to invest in infrastructure in Wales and, in doing so, will make the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government more accountable to the people in Wales who elect them. Since devolution these institutions have been accountable for how they spend taxpayers’ money. As a result of my statement today, they will be more accountable for how they raise it.

We will legislate to implement these changes as soon as parliamentary time allows. As a first step, we will publish a draft Wales Bill in the next few months to allow Parliament to scrutinise the legislation in draft.

We will enable the Welsh Government to use their existing limited borrowing powers before the new tax and borrowing powers come on stream to get the improvements to the M4 under way as soon as possible.

Before the end of the year we will announce the Government’s response to all 33 recommendations made by the Commission in its first report.

Government's Legislative Programme (Wales)

David Jones Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Government’s Third Session legislative programme announced in the Queen’s Speech on 8 May contains a wide range of measures that will apply to Wales, either in full or in part.

The following Bills and draft Bills will extend to Wales:

Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill (Home Office)

Draft Consumer Rights Bill (Business Innovations and Skills)

Defence Reform Bill (Ministry of Defence)

Deregulation Bill (Cabinet Office)

High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill (Department for Transport)

Immigration Bill (Home Office)

Intellectual Property Bill (Business Innovations and Skills)

Mesothelioma Bill (Department for Work and Pensions)

National Insurance Contributions Bill (HM Treasury)

Pensions Bill (Department for Work and Pensions)

Rehabilitation Bill (Ministry of Justice)

Draft Wales Bill (Wales Office)

The following Bills may extend to Wales in varying degrees:

Care and Support Bill (Department of Health)

High Speed Two Hybrid Bill (Department for Transport)

Local Audit and Accountability Bill (Department of Communities and Local Government)

Northern Ireland Bill (Northern Ireland Office)

Water Bill (Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

Discussions will continue with the Welsh Government on Bills that might include provisions that require the consent of the National Assembly for Wales or Welsh Ministers.

National Assembly for Wales (Electoral Arrangements)

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

In May 2012, the Wales Office published “A Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales” (Cm 8357). It sought views on four issues: whether the link between parliamentary constituencies and constituencies for elections to the National Assembly for Wales, a link broken as a result of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, should be reinstated; whether the length of an Assembly term should be moved from four to five years; whether the prohibition on a candidate at an Assembly election standing in both a constituency and a region should end; and whether Assembly Members should not also be able to sit in Parliament.

A three-month consultation on these proposals ended in August 2012, and the Wales Office published a summary of consultation responses in November. I am today announcing how the Government intend to proceed in light of the consultation response.

As a result of the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013, the four UK boundary commissions will now report in 2018 on their recommendations for new parliamentary constituencies. The boundaries of parliamentary and Assembly constituencies will remain the same until then, and there is no longer an immediate need to re-establish the link between the two sets of constituencies. The Government do not therefore intend to proceed with the changes to Assembly constituencies proposed in the Green Paper.

We do, however, intend to take forward the three other proposals in the Green Paper. First, we will move the Assembly from four to five-year fixed terms. The term of the current Assembly is, exceptionally, five years, but the Assembly is set to revert to four-year terms after the next Assembly elections in 2016. A permanent move to five-year terms would make a coincidence between parliamentary and Assembly elections in 2020 (and every 20 years thereafter) less likely.

Secondly, we will end the prohibition on candidates at Assembly elections standing in both a constituency and a region at the same time. The Government believe that, in principle, candidates should not be barred from standing in a constituency and a region, and the current prohibition impacts disproportionally on smaller parties.

Thirdly, we will prohibit Assembly Members from simultaneously sitting as Members of the House of Commons. The Government do not believe that one person can adequately serve two sets of constituents. This prohibition would not apply to Members of the House of Lords.

The Government will bring forward legislation to effect these changes at the earliest opportunity.

Wales

David Jones Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr Jones]

If this Government were to pursue the policies advocated by the Labour party and try to fix a debt crisis simply by borrowing more, the plight of the individuals whom the hon. Gentleman mentions would be infinitely worse. So far we are providing 109,000 additional jobs for the people of Wales, and we are reducing their tax bills and doing our best to ensure that they get sustainable private sector jobs. The hon. Gentleman has no answer to that.

[Official Report, 27 February 2013, Vol. 559, c. 295-96.]

Letter of correction from David Jones:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith).

The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Jones]

If this Government were to pursue the policies advocated by the Labour party and try to fix a debt crisis simply by borrowing more, the plight of the individuals whom the hon. Gentleman mentions would be infinitely worse. So far we are providing 44,000 additional jobs for the people of Wales, and we are reducing their tax bills and doing our best to ensure that they get sustainable private sector jobs. The hon. Gentleman has no answer to that.

Supplementary Estimate - DEL

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Subject to parliamentary approval of any necessary supplementary estimate, the Welsh Government’s departmental expenditure limit (DEL) net of ring-fenced depreciation will be increased by £107,012,000 from £14,704,278,000 to £14,811,290,000.

Within the total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) changes, the impact is set out in the following tables:

Commission on Devolution in Wales

David Jones Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Government established the Commission on Devolution in Wales (the “Silk Commission”) in October 2011 with the support of the Welsh Government and all the parties in the National Assembly for Wales.

The Commission’s remit is divided into two parts. I can inform the House that the Commission has today published a report on part I of its remit. The report. “Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales”, makes recommendations on the devolution of fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales.

I welcome publication of the report and have placed copies in the Library of the House. The Government will carefully consider the Commission’s recommendations and respond in due course.

The Commission will now turn its attention to part II of its remit, in which it will review the powers of the National Assembly for Wales. I wish to inform the House of changes to the membership of the Commission for part II. I am making two new appointments to the Commission to replace commissioners who are standing down: Helen Molyneux, chief executive of New Law Solicitors, Cardiff, is joining the Commission as an independent member in place of Dyfrig John CBE, following a recommendation by the Commission, and Jane Davidson is the Welsh Labour party’s nominee in place of Sue Essex.

I have also appointed Trevor Glyn Jones CVO as an additional independent member to ensure representation on the Commission from north Wales for its part II work. Mr Jones recently retired as Lord Lieutenant of Clwyd, and all four party leaders in the Assembly have agreed his appointment.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Paul Murphy]

No, because I think those issues were different at the time. The other option that is not in the Green Paper is the question of whether top-up Members of the National Assembly should be elected on an all-Wales basis, as opposed to a regional basis. Personally, I think that would be more logical, and that there should be a list system for Members elected by proportional representation. My point, however, is that these debatable options should have been put to the people of Wales but were not, and that is why the Green Paper is flawed.

My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) touched on the assurances that were given to the First Minister of Wales concerning electoral arrangements for the National Assembly. I understand that the Secretary of State said last week that no such assurances were given, but I want to provide the Chamber with two quotations from what was said when the National Assembly debated the issue some weeks ago. The first comes from the former Presiding Officer of the National Assembly, Lord Elis-Thomas:

“Would it surprise the First Minister to know that, when I was Presiding Officer…I received assurances from the Prime Minister…and the…Secretary of State that there would be no change in our boundaries to coincide with Westminster boundaries?”

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, answered:

“I received an assurance on two occasions from the Prime Minister that there would be no change without the consent of the Assembly, and I am on record as saying that. I took that assurance in good faith and I expect it to be adhered to. However, the reality is that Scotland will continue to have different boundaries for Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament constituencies. If it works in Scotland, what evidence is there that it could not work in Wales? None is offered.”

The point is that there is obviously a huge difference of opinion between the First Minister and the former Presiding Officer on one hand, and the Secretary of State on the other. Whom are we to believe in this instance? The First Minister has made it absolutely clear to me and to others that such an assurance was given.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned the First Minister’s recollection of what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said to him. It is important at this juncture to make it absolutely clear that that is not a recollection that is shared by the Prime Minister.

[Paul Murphy]

In which case someone is telling untruths. The reality is that the former Presiding Officer, Lord Elis-Thomas, confirms that he was told exactly the same thing as the First Minister. Whom are we to believe? If there are such vast differences of opinion on this matter, the Government should rethink their whole strategy on the Green Paper.

[Paul Murphy]

Of course they are not, and the point about this whole business is that it undermines the trust between the two Governments and the two Parliaments. It cannot be the case that the First Minister did not discuss such an important issue with the Prime Minister when the Prime Minister visited Cardiff—or, indeed, with the Secretary of State. It is so fundamental to the future of the National Assembly and the way in which it is elected that it seems impossible that the issue would not have been discussed, and that assurances would not have been given. I cannot go any further, because on the one hand the Minister says that the assurance was not given, and on the other Lord Elis-Thomas and Carwyn Jones say that it was.

[Mr David Jones]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way to me again, because clearly this is a matter on which Opposition Members would like further clarification. The position is clear so far as the Prime Minister is concerned: he agrees that the electoral arrangements for the Assembly are not within the Assembly’s devolved competence. That is a point on which the First Minister appears to agree. When they had their discussion, the Prime Minister said that the Assembly should be fully engaged in the process. He does not recall, as the First Minister seems to recall, saying that the matter was to be decided by the Assembly itself and, indeed, the notes of the discussion do not reflect the First Minister’s recollection of the conversation.

[Paul Murphy]

Whoever said what to whom, the reality is that we are now in a fine old mess over it. It seems to me that the Government should go back and rethink their whole approach, not just on the Green Paper, but on how they handle relations with the National Assembly, the Welsh Government and the First Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but that is what parliamentary democracy is based on. I am disappointed that the Secretary of State is not here this morning. She was the one who said at Welsh questions that she wanted to lead this debate. This was the opportunity for her to do so. Perhaps 9.30 is a little too early in the morning for her to turn up to lead a debate, but at 11.30 on Monday she wanted to do so. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen has given us this opportunity at 9.30 on Tuesday.

[Mr David Jones]

Let me correct the hon. Gentleman. This is not the debate that the Secretary of State wanted to lead. She wanted to lead the debate in the Grand Committee that Opposition Front Bench Members refused to have.

[Albert Owen]

I do not take notice of what my Front Bench colleagues say on every occasion, but they were absolutely right about this. What they said—if the Minister is going to quote them, he should do so correctly—was that they wanted a debate on the Floor of the House, in the main Chamber. Changing the way in which people are elected and the numbers who can be elected to the National Assembly are important issues. I welcome a debate, but not after the event.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy said that the status quo is not an option, so the only option left is 30:30. Those are the only two options presented by the Government. We stay with the status quo, which will not be an option, or we go for 30:30. I have concerns about equal weighting between regional Members and constituency Members. Members of the Assembly and Members of Parliament serve a community. There is a link with the individual who is elected. He or she represents the views of the people and they can be voted out. When we increase the regional lists—this is another inconsistency among some Government Members—we make things less representative. The power goes not to the people but to the party managers, which is something I disagree with, whether for the European elections, the Assembly elections or any other election. In this Chamber today, there are three Members who were regional Assembly Members, and I have respect for all of them as individuals, but they have all chosen to come here and to be elected on a constituency basis. I take from that that they favour that form of election.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Mr Hollobone, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. In the brief time available to me—some 11 minutes—I will do my best to answer many of the questions posed in this debate. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) on initiating this debate. He was kind enough to say during his remarks that he had considerable respect for me. I must tell him that as a lawyer, I am always suspicious when told that people have respect for me, because the expression “with great respect” is the greatest insult in the legal profession. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman’s compliment was, in fact, meant as a back-handed insult to the Secretary of State for Wales, and that insult was echoed by many Opposition Members. Frankly, the personal nature of their criticism does them little credit.

It is important that the facts are set out clearly on the record. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, although we have had the benefit of a one-and-a-half-hour debate today, the Secretary of State had offered to hold a Grand Committee on the issue. The right hon. Gentleman is an important supporter of the Grand Committee system and, had that offer been accepted, we would have had a three-and-a-half-hour debate yesterday morning. For the life of me, I cannot understand why his party’s Front-Bench representatives refused that offer. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was made on short notice, but as he will know there is little time left in this parliamentary term to hold such a debate. I hope that I am not being unfair to the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), but I think that, had the right hon. Member for Torfaen been in his position, that offer would have been accepted and we would have had a Grand Committee debate yesterday, led by the Secretary of State, and not the attenuated process that we have gone through today.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

I will, but I will not take many interventions, because I have been left with so little time.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Why is the Minister waffling so much? Where is the Secretary of State for Wales?

[Mr Jones]

That was a very helpful intervention. The fact is that, had Opposition Members been willing to turn up on a Monday morning, there would have been a debate yesterday.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Where is she?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Lady’s personal animosity towards the Secretary of State is well known, so I will not grace her comments with any further response.

This debate is about the Government’s Green Paper on the future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales, but the Labour party appears to spend most of its time agonising about process. Having hacked through that undergrowth of process, its principal complaint seems to be that it is the Assembly, not Parliament, that should be responsible for determining those electoral arrangements. The position, however, is absolutely clear: this Government can only work within the devolution settlement that was put in place by the Government of Wales Act 2006. That Act was implemented by the Labour party, so it is rather rich that its Members are now complaining about the arrangements that they thought perfectly adequate back in 2006. I witnessed the passage of the Bill through Parliament, and I cannot recall any of those Members suggesting at the time that the arrangements should be anything other than those that we are pursuing.

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not, because I have been left very little time by the hon. Member for Pontypridd.

Under the settlement, the Assembly’s electoral arrangements are not a devolved issue, so constitutionally it is entirely proper for Parliament to consider the question. The issue of the First Minister’s conversation with the Prime Minister has been raised. Let me make the position clear for the record: the Prime Minister’s recollection is that, when he met the First Minister at the Broughton aircraft factory, he told him that the Assembly should be fully engaged in the process. He did not say that the matter was to be decided by the Assembly itself. Frankly, it would have been extraordinary if he had done so, because that is not an option under the devolution settlement. As I have said, the notes from the meeting do not reflect the First Minister’s recollection of what was said.

I repeat that this debate is about a Green Paper, in which the Government are asking important questions about the future conduct of Assembly elections and the make-up of the Assembly itself. It is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has pointed out, a consultative document, and the Assembly, the Assembly Government, Opposition Members—in fact, everybody—are not only free but positively encouraged to play into that process. I have no doubt that the right hon. Member for Torfaen will himself play into it and make submissions to the consultation, which will continue until 13 August.

The Government are seeking to establish whether people think that the Assembly constituency boundaries should reflect the 30 proposed new parliamentary boundaries in Wales, or whether there should remain 40 constituencies, which would have to be of equal, or nearly equal, size. I find it extraordinary when Opposition Members criticise the principle of equality of vote, because it was my understanding that the Labour party—we have been reminded of this by several Opposition Members, most notably the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—considers democracy to be important. It is wrong, according to the values of any democracy, that a vote in the constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth should be worth almost twice the value of a vote in Arfon. What is sauce for the parliamentary goose is sauce for the Assembly gander, and that is precisely what we seek to achieve—fairness and equality within the voting system.

We have made it clear, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) has pointed out, that we favour a move to 30 constituencies that are coterminous with parliamentary constituencies, because that would be cleaner and clearer for the people of Wales. Under such a system, they would know which constituency they were casting their vote in, whether it was at a Westminster or an Assembly election. I do not believe that there is anything controversial about that.

This has been an extraordinary debate, because it should have taken place yesterday in Grand Committee, and it should have lasted for three and a half hours, rather than an hour and a half. I must say that it is because of the ineptitude of the shadow Secretary of State in opposing the motion for a Grand Committee when it was made on the Floor of the House that we did not have the debate yesterday. I do not believe that his party’s Back Benchers are idle or cowardly, but that the hon. Gentleman has completely mishandled the process.

It is also extraordinary that Opposition Members appear to be clamouring for a debate on the Floor of the House about a consultation paper. When the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was progressing through the House, they clamoured for a Grand Committee on the issue, yet when they were offered a Grand Committee on the Green Paper, they refused it because they wanted a debate on the Floor of the House. This is a question of utter, shambolic inconsistency on the part of Opposition Members in general and the hon. Member for Pontypridd specifically. I realise that he is very new to the job and that he is inexperienced, but it would have been more beneficial to him if he had sought the counsel of the right hon. Members for Torfaen and for Neath (Mr Hain) before he decided, in such a cack-handed manner, to refuse the offer of a debate in Grand Committee.

The Green Paper is an important document. I hope that Opposition Members will play into the process and that the hon. Member for Pontypridd will learn from this experience and exercise a little more caution before shouting, “Object”, on the Floor of the House.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. As Members who have just arrived to take part in the next debate will note, we have had a very interesting and lively debate on the electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales. We are now going to have an equally interesting and fascinating debate about East Anglia rail. It gives me great pleasure to call the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey).

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

2. What assessment she has made of the importance of supply chains to manufacturing and engineering in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Government recognise the high importance of supply chains to the manufacturing and engineering sectors in Wales, both of which are significant components of the Welsh economy.

[Neil Carmichael]

Does the Minister agree that small and medium-sized enterprises are a key part of the economy, both in Wales and England, and that the Government are absolutely right to focus on making sure they are attached to these supply chains, to develop their products and services further?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend is entirely right to highlight the mutual dependence of supply chains that emanate in England and Welsh manufacturing industry, and vice versa. In fact, Airbus accounts indirectly for about 135,000 jobs. The Welsh Government, to whom economic development is devolved, should be keen to foster those supply chains and, for that purpose, should be working very closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

On Friday, I visited the Orb works in Newport, which, thanks to a very large investment in the supply chain by Tata, is now producing world-class electrical steel, which is good news for the work force and for manufacturing in Newport. Steelmakers in Wales are still experiencing a subdued market, however, as yesterday’s news showed, so what more are the Government doing to help steelmaking in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

The Government are very closely engaged with the steelmaking industry via UK Trade and Investment, and I would reiterate the point that, given the news we heard yesterday, it is extremely important that the Welsh Assembly Government should work closely with UKTI to foster that industry.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the major challenges facing the Welsh economy is the deficit in exports generated in Wales and imported goods and services from other states, as well as from within the UK? What discussions is the Minister having with Cabinet colleagues and the Welsh Government to expand and diversify the Welsh export base—in particular in manufacturing, once a great strength of the Welsh economy?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to point that out. Over the next few weeks there will be an enormous opportunity for Welsh industry in the shape of the British business embassy, which exporters and importers from all over the world will be attending. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government are now engaging, albeit tentatively, with that embassy, but I urge them to do more.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

3. What discussions she has had with Welsh Government Ministers on the economic outlook for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

7. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on promoting the Welsh identity.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have frequent discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on promoting and capitalising on Wales’ unique identity as a constituent nation of the United Kingdom.

[Greg Mulholland]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Nothing promotes the Welsh identity better than the wonderfully rousing national anthem “Land of My Fathers,” but it is an affront to the people of Wales when the England team wrongly use the United Kingdom’s national anthem when they play. Does the Minister agree that England should emulate Wales, be clear on the difference between England and the United Kingdom, and introduce a rousing national anthem of our own?

[Mr Jones]

As a Welshman, I feel rather chary about intruding on English matters such as an English national anthem. As a Welshman, I sing “God Save the Queen” just as enthusiastically and just as badly as I sing “Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau”.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that as well as Welsh Members of Parliament we are British Members of Parliament and that as Welsh Members of Parliament we should be able to speak and vote on matters that affect our constituents, even those that affect our constituents from over the border? In my case, that includes hospitals, business, transport, defence and other matters.

[Mr Jones]

The right hon. Gentleman appears to be referring to the West Lothian question, on which, as he knows, there is a commission. It would be refreshing if Labour Members wished to debate such matters in Grand Committee rather than running scared.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

8. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on the residential construction industry in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on a range of issues, including the construction industry in Wales. I have written to the Welsh Government offering to facilitate discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government to explore the possible extension of the NewBuy scheme to Wales.

[John Howell]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the approach to planning and building regulations being adopted by the Labour Welsh Government is having an adverse effect on the construction industry in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

In Wales, an increasingly onerous planning and building regulations system is developing. Both planning and building regulations are key to the development of new housing and, at a time when England is relaxing that regime, the Welsh Assembly Government are making it more oppressive.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I am rather disappointed that there will be no Welsh Grand Committee on Monday; I do not know whether it is to do with alarm clocks or whatever else. There will be plenty of other opportunities for debating such matters on the Floor of the House in due course and that could have been a good first debate.

The construction industry employs 100,000 people in Wales. Will the Minister please make representations so that renovations are not subject to VAT? The problem is that new build is not subject to it but renovations are, and the vast majority of renovations are carried out by small and medium-sized firms.

[Mr Jones]

I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says about the Grand Committee and I agree with him entirely. My information tells me that it is the onerous planning and building regulations regime that is the biggest deterrent to new house building in Wales.

[Mr Llwyd]

I understand that the Welsh Government and the Treasury are currently discussing the whole issue of the Barnett formula and the housing revenue account subsidy scheme. That has been done away with in England, and never existed in Scotland or Northern Ireland. It cost Wales £73 million last year—money that could have been put to good use repairing council homes. Will he please further these discussions?

[Mr Jones]

The Welsh Assembly Government are doing considerably better in financial terms under this Government than many other spending Departments, and the right hon. Gentleman should take that into account.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Regional pay affects local economies in the poorest regions of Wales. Does the Minister agree that construction workers and construction firms in north-west Wales, in Cemaes bay and Colwyn bay, should be paid the same as those in Torbay and Buckinghamshire, as should teachers in those areas?

[Mr Jones]

Increasingly, Welsh house builders are leaving Wales to build in England, and it is good that firms such as Watkin Jones, which the hon. Gentleman will know, at least are keeping local employees. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. Let us have a bit of order for Mr David Rutley.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

9. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Welsh Government on improving broadband infrastructure in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend has regular discussions with ministerial colleagues, Welsh Government Ministers and other interested parties on improving broadband infrastructure in Wales.

[David Rutley]

Superfast broadband is an important priority in Macclesfield in our rural communities, just as it is in towns and villages across Wales. Is my hon. Friend disappointed that the Labour Welsh Government still have not announced the preferred bidder for the next-generation broadband for Wales project despite having promised to do so in December last year?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, the Welsh Assembly Government have been given double the expected Barnett consequential in order to deliver broadband infrastructure in Wales. I am reliably informed that an announcement will be made this summer.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

How will the Minister ensure that BT is not the monopoly supplier of broadband in north Wales?

[Mr Jones]

I think the hon. Gentleman had better speak to his colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, who will shortly be allotting the contract for broadband in Wales.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

10. What discussions she has had with the First Minister on the effectiveness in Wales of the Human Trafficking Commissioner.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Combating human trafficking is a key priority for the Government, and we fully recognise the importance of tackling the issue in Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not discussed this issue with the First Minister, although she has met the anti-human trafficking co-ordinator for Wales. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These are extremely serious matters. I think people would expect us to treat them with some seriousness and to listen to Mr Peter Bone.

[Mr Bone]

I thank the Minister for his response. The Prime Minister is leading Europe in the fight against human trafficking, but could we not learn something in England by adopting the Welsh idea of having an English commissioner against human trafficking?

[Mr Jones]

The principal reason that Wales has an anti-human trafficking co-ordinator is that, while policing and justice are undevolved, such issues as child care are devolved. It therefore makes sense for there to be a co-ordinator in Wales. In England, where there is no such issue of devolution, the question does not arise.