Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) on securing the debate. The issue is important, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) said, it is not a priority, certainly not for constituents in Ynys Môn or, indeed, north Wales.

I want to reiterate some of the points that my right hon. Friend made, but also to take up some of the comments of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), with whom I agree on many constitutional issues. I used to agree with him on some constitutional issues when he was a member of another party; but I have been firm in my belief that changes to the electoral system should be brought about by referendum of the people of Wales. That must be the principle we stand for in this place. Only recently, the people of Wales were given a referendum on relatively small extra powers, yet when it comes to making significant changes to the boundaries on which they will elect Assembly Members, there is no question of the Conservative party offering a referendum.

The priorities for my constituents are the cuts, policing and the armed forces—all those issues—but not electoral arrangements. Yet in the short time for which they have been in office the Government have already pushed through changes to the boundaries in which Members of Parliament are elected. That must be a huge priority for them—but not, it seems, when it comes to the House of Lords. There is a possibility that changing the second Chamber could be dealt with by a referendum; but when it comes to National Assembly arrangements, then, with no mandate, the change should go through—and with little consultation too.

I want to address the Minister’s remarks about whether the Prime Minister said one thing or the First Minister said another. I assure him and the House that when I asked the Prime Minister a question in the Chamber, about the respect agenda, his response was very firm: he respected the National Assembly and the other bodies, and would listen to what they said. The First Minister has made it very clear in the National Assembly that he feels the proposal should not go ahead in the way in question. If the Prime Minister is to be taken at his word—he gave me a cast iron guarantee, as he did his Back Benchers on the European referendum—he should respect the views of the Assembly and the First Minister and withdraw the Green Paper and engage in a proper debate.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy said consultation was important. In a parliamentary democracy we have the relevant debates before a general election. We put our policies into a document called the manifesto and allow the people of Wales to judge the parties on it. That is what democracy, the voice of the people, is about. We have changed from a position where parliamentary parties seeking election put policy in their manifestos to one where they do not have a policy, but invent one when they are in office.

I do not know why the proposal has become a priority for the Minister and the Wales Office. Perhaps they have little to do, and are looking for issues to run with. No one I represent—or, indeed, who is represented by other Members of Parliament in the Chamber—has come forward to say “We need to do this.” Yes, there is an issue of coterminosity, because of the changes in the parliamentary boundaries. The hon. Member for Aberconwy said that his seat would disappear as a consequence of the proposals, and the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011. I can guarantee what would happen if he said to his electorate before the election, “The seat that I am standing for will be done away with, because my party will push through electoral changes.” Yes, the manifesto quite correctly said there would be a change of boundaries, but nowhere did it say that a quarter of the seats in Wales were to disappear. I challenge the hon. Gentleman to intervene, if he feels it necessary, because that is what he voted for.

[Guto Bebb]

The manifesto commitment was for an equalisation of the seats in the United Kingdom. I fail to see how anyone would not have seen that as a change that would result in a proportionately larger fall in the number of seats in Wales, because Wales has traditionally been over-represented in comparison with the population. That over-representation was justified in historical terms, but with the existence of a law-making Welsh Assembly I fail to see how the issue could have been a surprise to anyone in my constituency.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman might feel that that is a good academic argument, but it was not the outcome of the Act of Parliament. When it came to the Isle of Wight or the Western Isles, or many parts of the United Kingdom with strong Liberal representation, there was consensus. There was no equal representation across the United Kingdom.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and then to the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart).

[Alun Michael]

The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) would be well advised to read the Westminster Hall debate initiated by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who castigated the Government for the way in which the size of constituencies in Wales had been downgraded because of the relationship between Wales and England. Reading that speech might be an education for the hon. Gentleman.

[Albert Owen]

I often agree with the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee. In his most recent pronouncement he criticises Defence Ministers—I am sure that the Minister wants to hear this because he always criticises Assembly Members for not coming before the Welsh Affairs Committee—for not coming forward when radical changes are being made to regiments in Wales. There is inconsistency in the Government’s stance.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman at least accept that there is a distinction between the Government and the Boundary Commission? The Government passed legislation that a constituency should be 75,000, or 5% either way, but it was the independent Boundary Commission that actually drew the lines.

[Albert Owen]

I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman is really apportioning blame to the Boundary Commission. He and his party voted on strict criteria, which were then imposed on the Boundary Commission. First, they allowed exemptions in some areas, which means that the argument that the hon. Member for Aberconwy made about equalisation across the entire United Kingdom is a false one. Secondly, the Boundary Commission was given no room for manoeuvre, which is why we will end up with this Government doing away with a quarter of the seats in Wales.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a degree of nonsense in what certain Conservative Members are saying? It seems that they want fewer Conservative Members of Parliament in Wales as long as it does not affect their own seats. In his role as Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) has to sit silently, but he has described the changes as the death of parliamentary democracy in mid-Wales. Although he is not allowed to speak, he can nod—he is not even nodding this morning. Does my hon. Friend not agree that there is real inconsistency in what the Conservatives are arguing on this point?

[Albert Owen]

I have highlighted the inconsistencies of the Conservative party on these issues, but I now want to move to some of the important points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen made in his opening remarks. I have dealt with the first point: there was no mandate for the change. There is no respect for the National Assembly as a body and for the First Minister as a leader of that body. That is absolutely clear from what has come out of this debate and from the way in which the matter is moving forward. As for the idea that there is dialogue among people through a Green Paper—the hon. Member for Aberconwy gave me the ammunition to go after this one—I have to say that not many people concentrate on a Green Paper. Many people concentrate on manifestos. That is the difference.

[Guto Bebb]

indicated dissent.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but that is what parliamentary democracy is based on. I am disappointed that the Secretary of State is not here this morning. She was the one who said at Welsh questions that she wanted to lead this debate. This was the opportunity for her to do so. Perhaps 9.30 is a little too early in the morning for her to turn up to lead a debate, but at 11.30 on Monday she wanted to do so. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen has given us this opportunity at 9.30 on Tuesday.

[Mr David Jones]

Let me correct the hon. Gentleman. This is not the debate that the Secretary of State wanted to lead. She wanted to lead the debate in the Grand Committee that Opposition Front Bench Members refused to have.

[Albert Owen]

I do not take notice of what my Front Bench colleagues say on every occasion, but they were absolutely right about this. What they said—if the Minister is going to quote them, he should do so correctly—was that they wanted a debate on the Floor of the House, in the main Chamber. Changing the way in which people are elected and the numbers who can be elected to the National Assembly are important issues. I welcome a debate, but not after the event.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy said that the status quo is not an option, so the only option left is 30:30. Those are the only two options presented by the Government. We stay with the status quo, which will not be an option, or we go for 30:30. I have concerns about equal weighting between regional Members and constituency Members. Members of the Assembly and Members of Parliament serve a community. There is a link with the individual who is elected. He or she represents the views of the people and they can be voted out. When we increase the regional lists—this is another inconsistency among some Government Members—we make things less representative. The power goes not to the people but to the party managers, which is something I disagree with, whether for the European elections, the Assembly elections or any other election. In this Chamber today, there are three Members who were regional Assembly Members, and I have respect for all of them as individuals, but they have all chosen to come here and to be elected on a constituency basis. I take from that that they favour that form of election.

[Glyn Davies]

I realise that there is a convention that Parliamentary Private Secretaries do not speak in a debate, but I do not want the hon. Gentleman’s point to pass unchallenged. As an individual Member, I certainly did not decide to move from the Assembly to Westminster; it was the election result that decided that.

[Albert Owen]

I did not single out the hon. Gentleman, but I am glad that he has intervened, because we miss his contributions. The fact that he is a PPS and is unable to contribute to debate is a sorry thing for this Parliament and this Chamber.

There is an important point about the lack of democracy when there are list Members. If we go to 30 seats in the parliamentary boundaries and they are coterminous, we should have dual membership. I disagree that it will give an advantage to the Labour party, because the electorate are sophisticated in Wales and they will make their choices. They have limited choices as to who their regional Members are. That is decided by party managers, which is what this Government want; they want to strengthen their grip over who gets elected to the Welsh Assembly.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

In my own region and in the region of my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), in south-east Wales, Labour consistently tops the poll on the regional list yet we do not have a single Labour regional AM. Is that democratic? Is that not ignoring the democratic will of the people?

[Albert Owen]

No, it is not democratic, but it was accepted by the electorate in Wales when we had a referendum. I accept that members of the public in Wales knew what they were voting for, but I do not accept having radical changes without going back to the people of Wales and having another referendum so that they can endorse or disagree with the principles. That would be real democracy.

[Jonathan Evans]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could calm his colleague, the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who has such a sense of injustice, by reminding him that in the Assembly elections last year, Labour got 43% of the constituency vote and 70% of the constituency Members. I say that in case he feels hard done by.

[Albert Owen]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for pointing that out, and for once again putting on his record his disagreement with the Conservative party on the way we elect Members. He has been honest and consistent that he wants greater representation through proportional representation, and I give him credit for that. Indeed, I am at one with him. We should elect all our Assembly Members on the basis that they serve their constituencies and that the constituents have the right, every four or five years, to turf them out if they think that they are not doing a good job, or re-elect them if they think that they are doing a good job. We should strive for having a named person and a named party, which is open democracy, not for increasing the list proportion, which does away with that and gives party managers a greater responsibility that they do not deserve.

Why is the issue a priority? It was not in the Conservative manifesto. I do not believe—I will take an intervention if it is not the case—that it was in the Liberal Democrat manifesto. We had a referendum on the alternative vote, which I support and would do so in the future if we had a proper Green Paper to advance it. Why did we have a referendum on the alternative vote but not on changing the boundaries for the Assembly? Why are we pushing this forward? The reason why we pushed AV up the parliamentary timetable was because it was the cement that kept the coalition together. Perhaps, this is cement, too. I will take an intervention from the Liberal Democrats, although I know the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) is going to speak in a minute, to hear whether they have been pushing for the measure. I have not seen any political party pushing it in this place.

Going back to the respect agenda, there needs to be real respect for elected bodies, whether they are in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister should check his notes and look for what he actually said in the meeting, because two against one is a democratic vote in my thinking, and two people remember one thing and one does not. I rather suspect that the Prime Minister’s memory is failing him or that he has done another U-turn. He is very good at doing U-turns; he has done dozens of U-turns. I remember him telling the electorate in Wales that he would not, in any circumstances, put VAT up, yet he did so as a priority when he came into office. I say to him, “Check your notes, certainly show respect for the First Minister and the people of Wales and let’s have a proper debate on this before we move forward.”

I believe that there is no consensus to be built around this narrow Green Paper. What we need is a proper debate in both institutions; indeed, we have had an excellent one in the House of Lords. I hope the Minister will reflect on what has been said by far more independent-minded people in the House of Lords on the issue. We need a proper debate in which we have the choices in front of us: whether we really want to be radical and move forward, or just to edge forward, giving more power to party managers rather than to the people of Wales.

Can the Minister clarify some points in his winding-up speech? What mandate does he have for the changes? I think I know the answer to that question. What are the views of the Assembly and does he respect them? Indeed, does he respect the views of the Welsh Conservative group within the Assembly, who have made it quite clear that they do not want these changes? How did the Government build the consensus that they put into the Green Paper and how do they hope to move forward?

I suggest that the only way forward is to scrap the proposed changes; to get the parliamentary boundaries firmed up, with Parliament’s will; and to look at the issue properly and give the people of Wales the chance either to endorse it or kick it out.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Lady’s personal animosity towards the Secretary of State is well known, so I will not grace her comments with any further response.

This debate is about the Government’s Green Paper on the future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales, but the Labour party appears to spend most of its time agonising about process. Having hacked through that undergrowth of process, its principal complaint seems to be that it is the Assembly, not Parliament, that should be responsible for determining those electoral arrangements. The position, however, is absolutely clear: this Government can only work within the devolution settlement that was put in place by the Government of Wales Act 2006. That Act was implemented by the Labour party, so it is rather rich that its Members are now complaining about the arrangements that they thought perfectly adequate back in 2006. I witnessed the passage of the Bill through Parliament, and I cannot recall any of those Members suggesting at the time that the arrangements should be anything other than those that we are pursuing.

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not, because I have been left very little time by the hon. Member for Pontypridd.

Under the settlement, the Assembly’s electoral arrangements are not a devolved issue, so constitutionally it is entirely proper for Parliament to consider the question. The issue of the First Minister’s conversation with the Prime Minister has been raised. Let me make the position clear for the record: the Prime Minister’s recollection is that, when he met the First Minister at the Broughton aircraft factory, he told him that the Assembly should be fully engaged in the process. He did not say that the matter was to be decided by the Assembly itself. Frankly, it would have been extraordinary if he had done so, because that is not an option under the devolution settlement. As I have said, the notes from the meeting do not reflect the First Minister’s recollection of what was said.

I repeat that this debate is about a Green Paper, in which the Government are asking important questions about the future conduct of Assembly elections and the make-up of the Assembly itself. It is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has pointed out, a consultative document, and the Assembly, the Assembly Government, Opposition Members—in fact, everybody—are not only free but positively encouraged to play into that process. I have no doubt that the right hon. Member for Torfaen will himself play into it and make submissions to the consultation, which will continue until 13 August.

The Government are seeking to establish whether people think that the Assembly constituency boundaries should reflect the 30 proposed new parliamentary boundaries in Wales, or whether there should remain 40 constituencies, which would have to be of equal, or nearly equal, size. I find it extraordinary when Opposition Members criticise the principle of equality of vote, because it was my understanding that the Labour party—we have been reminded of this by several Opposition Members, most notably the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—considers democracy to be important. It is wrong, according to the values of any democracy, that a vote in the constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth should be worth almost twice the value of a vote in Arfon. What is sauce for the parliamentary goose is sauce for the Assembly gander, and that is precisely what we seek to achieve—fairness and equality within the voting system.

We have made it clear, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) has pointed out, that we favour a move to 30 constituencies that are coterminous with parliamentary constituencies, because that would be cleaner and clearer for the people of Wales. Under such a system, they would know which constituency they were casting their vote in, whether it was at a Westminster or an Assembly election. I do not believe that there is anything controversial about that.

This has been an extraordinary debate, because it should have taken place yesterday in Grand Committee, and it should have lasted for three and a half hours, rather than an hour and a half. I must say that it is because of the ineptitude of the shadow Secretary of State in opposing the motion for a Grand Committee when it was made on the Floor of the House that we did not have the debate yesterday. I do not believe that his party’s Back Benchers are idle or cowardly, but that the hon. Gentleman has completely mishandled the process.

It is also extraordinary that Opposition Members appear to be clamouring for a debate on the Floor of the House about a consultation paper. When the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was progressing through the House, they clamoured for a Grand Committee on the issue, yet when they were offered a Grand Committee on the Green Paper, they refused it because they wanted a debate on the Floor of the House. This is a question of utter, shambolic inconsistency on the part of Opposition Members in general and the hon. Member for Pontypridd specifically. I realise that he is very new to the job and that he is inexperienced, but it would have been more beneficial to him if he had sought the counsel of the right hon. Members for Torfaen and for Neath (Mr Hain) before he decided, in such a cack-handed manner, to refuse the offer of a debate in Grand Committee.

The Green Paper is an important document. I hope that Opposition Members will play into the process and that the hon. Member for Pontypridd will learn from this experience and exercise a little more caution before shouting, “Object”, on the Floor of the House.