UK Export Finance: Contingencies Fund

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2025 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

The Export Credits Guarantee Department—operating as UK Export Finance—is seeking a repayable cash advance from the Contingencies Fund, following budget changes to an IT project to improve its transaction record systems. This is essential to meet the operational needs of the Department and its work supporting exporters.

Parliamentary approval for additional capital of £2,728,000 will be sought in a supplementary estimate for the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £2,728,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund.

The cash advance will be repaid following Royal Assent to the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill.

[HCWS958]

UK-Greenland Partnership, Trade and Co-operation Agreement

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2025 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

The UK and Greenland agreed to resume negotiations on the UK-Greenland Partnership, Trade and Co-operation Agreement at the European Political Community summit in Copenhagen on Thursday 2 October.

This partnership provides a strong commitment to enhance our bilateral trade relationship with Greenland and develop a deeper relationship with all parts of the Kingdom of Denmark to deliver a more prosperous and secure Arctic.

Greenland has historically been an important exporter of seafood to the UK, exporting approximately £211 million of seafood to it between 2022 and 2024. The deal could also support the UK’s seafood processing industry, which employed nearly 16,000 people in 2024.

It will also lead to tariff savings on seafood and fish imports tariffs of up to 20% from Greenland for UK processors, supermarkets, catering businesses and restaurants, which could be passed on to consumers.

Once negotiated, this will be Greenland’s first bilateral free trade agreement. There is a strong case for resuming talks and concluding the deal to consolidate and deepen the UK’s economic and geostrategic relationship with Greenland, including working more closely on critical and rare earth minerals co-operation.

The Government will continue to update and engage with stakeholders while we look to conclude negotiations with Greenland.

[HCWS936]

UK-US Trade

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2025 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

The UK and US have met to continue talks on the UK-US economic prosperity deal in London, Washington DC and virtually during August and September 2025.

The UK has continued to engage across the range of issues outlined in the general terms for the UK-US economic prosperity deal agreed in May. This has included discussions on digital and technology, tariff and non-tariff barriers, as well as on the US tariffs levied on products subject to section 232 investigations.

During the state visit of the President of the United States, the UK and US announced the technology prosperity deal that builds on the EPD. The first ever UK-US tech agreement is focused on developing the fastest growing technologies like AI, quantum, and nuclear. The deal will bring new healthcare breakthroughs, clean home-grown energy, and more investment into local communities and businesses in Britain and the United States.

Last month, the United States confirmed that the UK will not face an increase in steel and aluminium tariffs to 50% and will remain the only country in the world to benefit from a preferential 25% rate on steel, aluminium and derivative exports to the US, thanks to the EPD. This provides the certainty that UK industry has long been calling for. We continue to work closely with our US counterparts to reduce tariffs further and secure the best possible outcomes for UK manufacturers.

Also as a result of the EPD, the UK has received preferential treatment for lumber products, with the lowest tariff rate of any country in the world at 10%. Other countries face tariffs of up to 50%.

Intensive discussions are continuing on other sectors under section 232 investigation, including pharmaceuticals and semiconductors, towards the significantly preferential outcome provided for under the general terms.

The US is the UK’s largest single country trading partner with a trading relationship worth some £315 billion last year. UK firms employ some 1.2 million US workers while 1.4 million people work here in the UK for American companies. We have £1.2 trillion invested in each other’s economies. The EPD will continue to deliver on saving thousands of jobs, protecting key British industries, and helping to drive economic growth.

[HCWS935]

Turkey Enhanced Free Trade Agreement: Round 2 Negotiations

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2025 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

The second round of negotiations on an enhanced free trade agreement with Turkey took place in London during the week commencing 15 September 2025.

Economic growth is our first mission in Government and FTAs have an important role to play in achieving this. A stronger trade relationship with Turkey will contribute to jobs and prosperity in the UK, with total trade between the UK and Turkey standing at around £28 billion in 2024.

Negotiations were productive, with positive progress being made in a number of areas:

Trade in services

Constructive discussions were held on a range of key technical areas, including digital trade, financial and professional business services, as well as investment. The UK continues to seek commitments that will support opening new opportunities for services trade, which is not covered by the existing UK-Turkey FTA.

Trade in goods

Turkey is a significant trading partner for the UK—our 16th largest trading partner in 2024. In that period, UK goods exports to Turkey were worth more than £6.1 billion. During the second round of negotiations both sides discussed priorities for building on this baseline, and potential areas of growth. Talks focused on text proposals, as well as discussion of goods trade data covering recent years.

Sustainability and collaboration

The round included further talks on environment, labour, and anti-corruption provisions, building on initial conversations held in Ankara during the first round of negotiations. Both sides continued to assess scope for areas of co-operation, including reaffirming relevant international commitments and building on identified shared priorities.

Additional areas

Positive talks were also held on dispute settlement, intellectual property, Government procurement, customs, and consumer protection; productive initial discussions on trade remedies and good regulatory practice also helped build a shared understanding of both countries’ initial positions.

The UK will only ever sign a trade agreement which aligns with the UK’s national interests, upholding our high standards across a range of sectors, including protections for the national health service.

The third round of negotiations is expected to take place in late autumn of 2025. Ministers will update Parliament on the progress of discussions with Turkey as they continue to progress.

[HCWS933]

Bus and Lorry Tyres

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2025 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

Following EU exit, the UK transitioned over 43 trade remedy measures. These measures were originally applied on behalf of all 28 member states, including the UK, by the European Commission. Two of these 43 measures were anti-dumping and anti-subsidy measures on imports of certain bus and lorry tyres of Chinese-origin.

The UK committed to conduct transition reviews of all 43 measures to ascertain whether the measures are appropriate for the UK market, including whether they should be extended or terminated. As the UK’s independent trade remedies investigatory body, the Trade Remedies Authority is responsible for the conduct of transition reviews. The TRA makes evidence-based recommendations to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State carefully considers their conclusions, the evidentiary basis and relevant matters in the public interest before deciding whether to extend or terminate existing UK measures, such as those 43 the UK transitioned from the EU.

In 2022, the European Commission lost a legal challenge brought by Chinese industry, challenging the anti-dumping and anti-subsidy measures that the EU had in place on bus and lorry tyres of Chinese-origin. The methodology underpinning the EU’s measures on behalf of the 28 member states was found to be flawed. The European Commission reopened both investigations and in 2023 recalculated the duties, backdating the effect to remedy the issue. The new duties applied only on behalf of the 27 member states as the UK had already exited EU.

The UK was unable to take comparable action without a review of the measures. On 3 May 2023, the TRA initiated the transition reviews of our anti-dumping and anti-subsidy measures on imports of bus and lorry tyres of Chinese-origin. Through the transition review, the TRA received compelling evidence supporting a recalculation of the anti-dumping and anti-subsidy duties inherited from the EU.

Following a consideration of the evidence provided to it by domestic and foreign interested parties, the TRA recommended to the Secretary of State that both measures be extended for a further five years. The TRA also recommended that certain duties be increased, whereas others should be decreased. Domestic legislation limited the TRA to being able only to recommend that these new duties be applied from the original date of expiry of both measures—23 October 2023 for the anti-dumping measure, and 13 November 2023 for the anti-subsidy measure.

While the Secretary of State accepted the basis of the TRA’s recommendation to extend both measures and amend the duties, the Secretary of State believed that the amended duties should be applied from different dates. The Secretary of State believed that it is in the public interest and the reasoning was as follows:

For those duties the TRA recommended be increased, the Secretary of State decided to apply these prospectively from the day after the public notice was published—1 August 2025. This is because applying the increased duties prospectively is in accordance with World Trade Organisation rules on prospectivity and represented a fair outcome for the affected UK importers. The Secretary of State also does not anticipate the TRA finding itself in this situation again—the issue was driven by the original EU duties being found to be flawed. The TRA has almost completed all transition reviews of those 43 measures the UK originally inherited.

For those duties the TRA recommended be decreased, the Secretary of State decided to apply these from 1 January 2021. This was to remedy the fact that the UK inherited duties from the EU that were subject to a successful legal challenge by Chinese industry in 2022. This again represented a fair outcome for UK importers.

The Government published a public notice on 31 July 2025 to give effect to the Secretary of State’s decision from 1 August 2025.

[HCWS934]

Jaguar Land Rover Cyber-attack

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I welcome the Minister to his new job.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Chris Bryant)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I fully recognise the anxiety and deep concern that employees at Jaguar Land Rover and across the supply chain will be feeling. The Government and the National Cyber Security Centre will do everything in our power to help resolve this as soon as possible. We are engaging with JLR on a daily basis to understand the challenges that the company and its suppliers are facing, and we are monitoring the situation closely. I have spoken to the company myself, and I will have a further meeting with the chief executive officer later this week. I understand that the company has also invited local MPs to a question and answer session this Friday.

The National Cyber Security Centre has been working with Jaguar Land Rover since last Wednesday to provide support in relation to the incident. I am sorry that there is a limit to what I can say on the specifics because I do not want to prejudice the ongoing investigations.

The cyber-security of the UK, however, is a key priority for the Government—crucial to protecting the public, our way of life and the successful growing economy. We have been taking significant action to help protect businesses against cyber-attacks. We are reducing cyber-risk across the economy by making technology more secure by design. That includes the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022, introduced by the previous Government, which requires manufacturers to build security into the manufacture and operation of internet-connected devices; the software security code of practice, which sets out how vendors and developers should make their software more secure; and the AI cyber-security code of practice, which sets out how AI developers should design and operate AI systems securely.

We are also providing businesses with the tools, advice and support to protect themselves from cyber-threats. That includes the cyber governance code of practice, which shows boards and directors how to effectively manage the digital risks to their organisations; the highly effective cyber essentials scheme to prevent common attacks, reducing the likelihood of a cyber insurance claim by 92%; and a wide range of free tools and support from the National Cyber Security Centre, including training for boards and staff, the “Check Your Cyber Security” tools to test IT systems for vulnerabilities, and the early warning system to get notified about cyber-threats to networks. I urge all businesses to take up these tools and improve their cyber-defences.

It is not for me to announce future business of the House, but when parliamentary time allows the Government will introduce the cyber-security and resilience Bill to raise cyber-security standards in critical and essential services, such as energy, water and the NHS.

[Derek Twigg]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question—as a north-west MP, you know what a large employer JLR is in the region. As we have heard, this serious cyber-attack on Jaguar Land Rover has stopped production and halted sales, and staff have been instructed to stay at home. The car plants at Halewood in my constituency and in Solihull, and other production facilities around the world, have been unable to operate. From what has been reported, JLR shut down its IT systems in response to the attack. I believe that dealerships have been unable to register new cars and—initially, at least—garages that maintain JLR vehicles were unable to order the parts they needed.

The JLR Halewood plant in my constituency is an important and valued employer. Many of my constituents are employees, which is also the case for my neighbouring Merseyside MPs. Thousands of jobs in the supply chain have been affected. I am disappointed that despite the cyber-attack happening just over a week ago to one of our most important businesses, which has nearly 33,000 direct employees and, of course, a huge supply chain, no statement has been made to Parliament on what actions have been taken to help the company or to prevent future attacks.

The latest attack raises wider issues following on from the attack on Marks & Spencer. The two instances in themselves are very worrying. One would like to believe that all companies reviewed their cyber-security after the M&S attack. If these attacks continue, there could be an ongoing and even more serious effect on our economy. What are the Government doing to help protect our businesses from cyber-crime? I have heard what the Minister has said today, but it is in our national security interest for them to work closely with business. Is there an underlying weakness in how business is dealing with cyber-security? In that regard, we heard from Ciaran Martin, former head of the National Cyber Security Centre, on the “Today” programme this morning, suggesting that companies are perhaps focusing more on protecting customer data at the expense of the security of their operations.

This House needs to hear more in the coming months about what the Government are doing to work with business and to help prevent these attacks being successful, because they are a threat to our economy and to national security.

[Chris Bryant]

First, I commend my hon. Friend on seeking this urgent question and you, Mr Speaker, on granting it. My hon. Friend makes the important point that Jaguar Land Rover is not only an iconic national brand, but a very significant employer—it employs 34,000 people in the UK, including in his constituency, and 39,000 worldwide. He is right that we need to ensure that cyber-security is something that every company in the land take seriously, and every public sector organisation. In my previous ministerial role I was conscious of the attack on the British Library, which was actually one of the most financially significant attacks heretofore, and it pointed the way for some of the other issues arising across the economy, which is why we have been keen to bring forward a Bill on this, as stated in the King’s Speech. We will introduce such a Bill “soon”—I think I can get away with that with the Chief Whip and the Leader of the House, although, in the words of Humpty Dumpty, when I use a word it means precisely what I choose it to mean, no more and certainly no less. As my hon. Friend says, there are serious issues that we need to address across the whole of the economy to ensure that we get this right.

My hon. Friend pointed to one person; I point to another—Richard Horne, the chief executive officer of the National Cyber Security Centre—who recently stressed that the UK faces increasingly hostile activity in cyber-space. We simply cannot afford any degree of complacency in this. There are major criminals operating in this space, as well as some malicious state actors, and some 40% of companies in the UK reported last year that they had faced some kind of cyber-attack. It is a very important issue that we take seriously.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Dame Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) on securing this important urgent question. I welcome the Minister to his new role, although I will never be able to rival his literary quotations.

This attack on Jaguar Land Rover is extremely concerning. The impact on that world-leading business, and on its suppliers and workers, has been significant. I hope that the whole House agrees that we must use the full force of the state to crack down on cyber-criminals. I appreciate that the Minister is constrained in what he can say, but when were the Government and the National Cyber Security Centre informed of the attack? What kind of support are the Government and law enforcement agencies able to offer Jaguar Land Rover? How much longer do the Government expect the disruption, which is impacting on the supply of vehicles, to continue?

The attack is just another in a series against British brands and iconic institutions—the Minister says that 40% of our businesses have been affected—including the attack earlier this year on Marks & Spencer. Will he elaborate on what the Government are doing to prevent future attacks? Has he identified who is responsible for the attack? Can he rule out its being a state-sponsored attack? If the group responsible for the attacks on Jaguar Land Rover and Marks & Spencer are linked, what progress have law enforcement agencies made in pursuing them?

[Chris Bryant]

I am not sure whether the shadow Minister is in a new role—

[Dame Harriett Baldwin]

indicated dissent.

[Chris Bryant]

She is not; I will not welcome her to her new role, then—I welcome her to the Dispatch Box none the less. She asked a series of questions, and I will try to answer those that I can as precisely as possible.

First, the shadow Minister asked when the NCSC was notified and engaged. It has been engaged since last Wednesday. We have an undertaking that when people get in touch with the NCSC, the response will be very immediate.

The shadow Minister asked what engagement there is from the Government. The primary engagement is through the NCSC, which is fully engaged and devoted to the work. It is also in the public domain that the Information Commissioner’s Office was notified. I should clarify that that was not because JLR was certain that there had been a data breach, but it wanted to ensure that it had dotted every i and crossed every t, which is why it notified the Information Commissioner’s Office.

The shadow Minister asked about a timeline for getting this resolved. I wish that I could provide one, but I cannot. I think she will understand why: this is a very live situation that has been ongoing for a week. I note the points that JLR has been making. As I say, there will be an invitation for all local MPs—my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) should already have had one—for a Q&A session on Friday morning, when JLR hopes that it will be able to provide more information.

The shadow Minister asked what else we are doing. This summer, the Home Office undertook a consultation on our policy on ransomware. I am not saying that that relates specifically to this case—we do not know that yet and I am not coming to any foregone conclusions—but that is one of the things that we must address, and it was heartening to see resolute support from the vast majority of companies in the UK for our ransomware policy. Maybe we will come to that later.

The hon. Lady asked whether I can say who is responsible. I am afraid that I cannot. I note what is in the public domain, but I have no idea whether that is accurate and I do not want to impede the investigation. She asked whether the attack was state sponsored. Again, I do not want to jump to conclusions, and I can neither confirm nor deny anything. She also asked whether the case is linked with that of M&S. Again, I cannot answer that as fulsomely as I would wish, simply because I do not know, and I do not think anybody has come to any secure decisions on that. In one sense, all cyber-attacks are linked, in that it is the same problem, which is relatively new. The previous Government were seeking to tackle it, and we are seeking to tackle it in broadly the same way. Some of the techniques used are remarkably old-fashioned, such as ringing up helplines, which are designed to be helpful. That is exactly the same as when News of the World was ringing up mobile companies and trying to get PINs to hack other people’s phones. This is an old technique. The new bit is that sometimes people use AI-generated voices, which are remarkably accurate and can lead to further problems. I am not saying that that is what happened in this case, but some of the patterns are across the whole sector.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee.

[Liam Byrne (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) on securing this urgent question, and warmly welcome the Minister to his new role. This is an extraordinarily serious issue, and the Business and Trade Committee will soon table its recommendations on tackling economic harms such as this. Many companies such as JLR now confront a much bigger threat surface, and the peril of state-backed threats. That is why this will be a much bigger issue in the future, and why companies in this country will need more than new laws. They will need new investment incentives to clean up legacy infrastructure that is currently not safe enough.

When we took evidence from Archie Norman and Marks & Spencer in the wake of that cyber-attack, we were given a distinct impression that more could have been done by agencies to help M&S. Will the Minister reassure the House that all the lessons from how the M&S case was handled have been learned, and that the state will bend over backwards to ensure that JLR has every assistance it needs to get back up and running, and to prosecute the guilty?

[Chris Bryant]

The single most important thing we can do is ensure that we end up prosecuting the guilty and that people are sent to prison, such as the gentleman—well, the person—in the United States of America who was recently sent down for 10 years as part of one of these networks, which was important. I am a Minister in the Department for Business and Trade, but the Minister for Security, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley North (Dan Jarvis), and the Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Kanishka Narayan), who is on the Front Bench, are actively engaged in these discussions, and we must ensure a cross-Government approach. I look forward to what we will hear from the Business and Trade Committee. I was intrigued by what my right hon. Friend was saying about investment incentives, and I hope he might come up with some clever idea that we could put into practice once he has produced his report.

On the main point about whether we have learned all the lessons from M&S, I certainly think we have. I have read Archie Norman’s evidence to the Committee, and I hope that M&S has also learned the lessons that he laid bare. I hesitate in trying to make too immediate a connection between one case and another, because as my right hon. Friend will know, I do not want to prejudge what has happened in this particular set of circumstances.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)]

I welcome the Minister to his new role. There has been a spate of cyber-attacks on important UK companies such as Jaguar Land Rover, on supermarkets and on the Legal Aid Agency. What are the Government doing to restore public and, just as importantly, international trust in the UK’s cyber-security networks? Do the Government think that the attacks have come from overseas?

[Chris Bryant]

That is the second time I have been asked whether this attack has come from overseas, although I suppose that is a slightly different question from one about state actors. Again, I am not going to prejudge the investigation—I can tell that the hon. Gentleman knows that, because he is smiling. He referred to UK companies, but were I speak to any of my counterparts in Europe, or in most countries in the world, I would find that they are going through exactly the same issue. Qantas, Pandora, Adidas, Chanel, Tiffany & Co., Cisco—all those companies have had major attacks over the past months, and unfortunately that is simply a part of modern business. It is a despicable practice and a set of criminal actions. We must prosecute those who are responsible and ensure that they go to jail for a very long time, so that we can protect our industry in the UK, and co-operate with other international agencies to ensure that we do the same around the world.

[Maria Eagle (Liverpool Garston) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) on securing this urgent question. I used to represent the Halewood plant until boundary changes, and hundreds of my constituents work at that plant, with many more working in supplier companies. They are at home and being paid at the moment, but The Sunday Times reported that prospects of a quick end to the saga are limited, and that the worldwide shutdown is costing £72 million a day in lost sales. Despite requests, local MPs have had no meaningful information from the company, although we have a 30-minute Zoom call on Friday, which is a start. What can the Government do to ensure that this disaster is brought to a close as soon as possible? These attacks threaten our economy and our national security, so what help can the Minister offer the company and my constituents at this worrying time? Things do not seem to be getting any better.

[Chris Bryant]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for all the work that she and I did together, particularly on space, in my old job and in hers. She was an excellent Minister to do business with, and I slightly fear having her on the Back Benches as she is a very redoubtable person. Many suppliers, including Evtec, WHS Plastics, Sertec, OPmobility and a series of others, are in an even more complex situation than Jaguar Land Rover, and I will try to co-ordinate the activity that we are doing in our Department to ensure that we provide every possible support to them. I note the tone in which my right hon. Friend said that MPs were getting a half-hour Zoom call on Friday. I will try to ensure that all MPs get the support they need, so that they can do the job of reassuring their constituents. Earlier today I made that point forcibly to JLR, and as I say, I intend to have a meeting with its chief executive later this week. When I possibly can I want to keep MPs updated, either individually in constituencies, or the whole House.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Father of the House.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on surviving the reshuffle. This Minister adds to the general merriment of the nation, so we will miss him when he’s gone—[Laughter.] We’re all mortal. May I ask a serious question about the public sector? As it happens, I am an enthusiast for the Prime Minister’s idea of a national digital ID card as a means of countering illegal working, but it raises a whole new spectre if tens of millions of people have an ID card on their mobile phone in their pocket and malign forces—Russia and elsewhere—seek to attack us. What work are the Government doing with their Bill and in the National Cyber Security Centre to try to get this right?

[Chris Bryant]

The right hon. Gentleman is right on two points, and to take his point a little further, data is a wonderful thing—a gold mine, in many ways—but it is also a potential vulnerability. We must ensure that if we take people into a digital future, with digital ID cards—I am not saying that we are, but if we were to go down that route; or wherever we go, for instance with a digital driving licence, which we will have soon—we must ensure that it is safe, secure, and that people’s data is not imperilled.

I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman meant about me surviving. I love him too.

[Sonia Kumar (Dudley) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the Minister to his place. In the light of the cyber-security breaches survey published in April 2025, which reported that 43% of businesses and 30% of charities experienced a cyber-attack last year, what steps is he taking to strengthen national cyber-security? How are the Government working with businesses and charities to improve prevention and ensure better intelligence-sharing, as a matter of national security?

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is on the Business and Trade Committee, which I will be before next week, I think. On ransomware, one of the questions is whether we know the full extent of what is going on in the UK. That is why we have suggested mandatory reporting. It is interesting that more than 70% of businesses in the UK agreed with what was in the consultation that the Home Office produced in the summer, and I hope that we can introduce further measures when the Bill comes forward. I have referred to some of the means of providing support to businesses up and down the land, but I am happy to fill my hon. Friend in with more details, if she wants to grab me afterwards.

[Mr Joshua Reynolds (Maidenhead) (LD)]

As has been said, Jaguar Land Rover is not the first British household name this year to experience cyber-attacks. In a recent Business and Trade Committee meeting, the chairman of Marks & Spencer said that he wished that somebody would ride in the cab with them for this experience; he felt like there was too much one-way traffic, and not enough dialogue between the Government and the business. Can the Minister reassure us that the Department has learned those lessons? Can he reassure us that Jaguar Land Rover is having that two-way dialogue, and that someone is in the cab with it at the moment?

[Chris Bryant]

We want to make sure that is the case. As I have said, I have spoken to Jaguar Land Rover, and I intend to have a further meeting with the chief executive later this week, though he is departing in November. Two new Ministers from the Department for Business and Trade are here. Our job and our absolute determination is to ensure that business can flourish in this country, because in the end, business largely pays the bills, keeps the lights on, keeps the NHS functioning, and keeps everything going. That is why we are determined to have a strong working relationship with businesses, in this and many other areas.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

We have heard from my hon. Friends and the Minister how wide the impact of the cyber-attack has been, across the economy. Hon. Members have mentioned the national security threat. The Minister gave evidence to the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy in his previous role, and spoke about his confidence in the “robust” contingency plans in place for critical national infrastructure, to quote a phrase he used. To what extent does he have the same confidence when it comes to cyber-attacks?

[Chris Bryant]

The evidence that my hon. Friend mentions related to subsea cables, for which I think the situation is robust. In fact, we had another cut to one of the subsea cables during the summer months; it was, I think, repaired within eight days. We are one of the best countries in the world at repairing subsea cables, but we are also one of the more vulnerable countries, because we are an island nation. I assure him that we three Ministers—the Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Kanishka Narayan), the Minister for Security and me—will apply exactly the same diligence and lack of complacency to this issue as to the issue of subsea cables.

[Sir Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) for seeking and securing this urgent question. It is good to see the Minister in his place, with his perennially cheerful, Tiggerish demeanour, following the reshuffle.

In the royal town of Sutton Coldfield, we are extremely concerned about this incident. The Minister mentioned WHS Plastics, which is based in Minworth in my constituency. I spoke to the chief executive yesterday in some detail; he has 2,000 employees and eight plants, and the vast majority of his business goes to Jaguar Land Rover. The Minister will know that throughout the west midlands, there are probably more than 200,000 people in the supply chain who are directly affected, and I understand that all the factories globally have been shut down.

May I ask two questions to the Minister and support what was said by the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee, the right hon. Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North (Liam Byrne)? First, can we have an absolute assurance that we will have full help from all the relevant agencies of the state, and that they are seriously and 100% engaged in all this? Secondly, will the Minister press for maximum transparency, so that the staff who are being sent home in very large numbers, and who are naturally very anxious and worried about this issue, can be reassured to the greatest extent possible?

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, all the agencies will be engaged to the fullest possible extent. As the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee said, we will bend over backwards and do everything we possibly can to ensure that this issue gets resolved as soon as humanly possible; I do not want to say when that will be, because I simply do not know. If the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir Andrew Mitchell) would like to pass on the details of the chief executive of WHS Plastics, I am very happy to have a call with them, and with others in the supply chain, later this week. It is often not just individual companies, but the whole supply chain that is affected. As for Tigger, I seem to recall that the final line in the song is:

“the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is I’m the only one!”

[Mrs Sureena Brackenridge (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) for securing this urgent question, and the Minister for coming to the Dispatch Box. Jaguar Land Rover is a valued employer in Wolverhampton North East and an iconic British brand, so the disruption to production and the impact on the wider supply chains have caused much concern. What action is being taken to protect businesses and supply chains from ransomware and cyber-attacks?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I laid out in my initial answer some of the things that the Government are already engaged in, such as the NCSC, which has had involvement with Jaguar Land Rover since last Wednesday. There are really good online aids that can help many companies work through how they can protect themselves better. Some of those things are relatively simple, but some are more complex; it depends on the size of the organisation. As I said, we have consulted on ransomware. As we have said previously, paying the criminals does not get us out of the hole; they are not to be trusted, and people should be extremely cautious. We do not recommend people paying ransoms in any circumstances. It does not solve the problem, and actually adds to the business model of the criminals, whom we want behind bars.

[Saqib Bhatti (Meriden and Solihull East) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister to his role, and thank him for recognising the anxiety of the staff in the supply chain. Jaguar Land Rover is a huge employer in my constituency, not least because I have the factory in Elmdon, which employs thousands, and there could be an effect on tens of thousands, through its supply chain. Many of my constituents will be really anxious, not least because there is a lack of information at the moment. I echo the comments of the right hon. Member for Liverpool Garston (Maria Eagle) about briefings for MPs. Can the Minister reassure my constituents that this Government will give the NCSC all the resources it needs to pursue the perpetrators? I am more than happy to work with him on that. Given the reports of losses being made every day, have there been any requests for financial support? Is he talking to Chancellor about anything like that, or is it too early to say?

[Chris Bryant]

I am tempted to say that it is too early to say, as the hon. Gentleman gave me that get-out clause at the end. The main thing I want to ensure is that all MPs have the information they need on a secure basis, so that they can provide reassurance to their constituents. I am sure that there will be all sorts of rumours spreading around, some of which may be very wide of the mark, and I want to ensure that JLR is able to provide information to everybody. We are going into recess next Tuesday; otherwise, I would have been more than happy to gather MPs to have these discussions in a private setting. It is probably best if we see how we go on Friday. I do not think that half an hour will suffice for a Zoom call with JLR; I will make that point to the chief executive.

[Laurence Turner (Birmingham Northfield) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and Halewood (Derek Twigg) for securing this urgent question, and welcome the Minister to his new role. JLR employs hundreds of people directly in my constituency, and many more indirectly. This is an extremely concerning time for them, and I hope that the Department will consider providing information directly to local MPs, in addition to engaging with the company. As has been said, this attack follows attacks on Marks & Spencer, the NHS, the British Library and other public institutions. I understand why the Minister has set out that the Government’s focus is on ensuring that companies are better protected and report these kinds of incidents, but can he assure the House that all steps are being taken to identify areas of critical national vulnerability in both the public and private sectors, so that we can try to avoid these attacks in the first place?

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, I can assure my hon. Friend that we do that. Of course, I fully understand that this issue comes on top of other issues for JLR this year, not least tariffs in the United States of America. As my hon. Friend knows, the Prime Minister was very personally engaged in making sure that we got a better deal with the United States, and was able to announce that in a JLR factory. I know that some voluntary redundancies are going through the normal business process at JLR at the moment; that has nothing to do with this cyber-attack. However, I can give my hon. Friend the assurance he asks for.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

Jaguar Land Rover is the largest employer in the west midlands, so every west midlands constituency is impacted by this cyber-attack. The attack on JLR is not the first of its kind, and it certainly will not be the last. Increasingly, we are seeing state actors using criminal gangs, whether they originate from Russia, North Korea or Iran, to get hard cash into their country. What more can the Minister and the state do to support our businesses with the robust defences that are required? They are fighting states, and they need this state right behind them.

[Chris Bryant]

They certainly have this state right behind them. Incidentally, I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman: I think I visited his constituency during the recess, and he might have known about it only 10 minutes before I arrived. We were looking at digital inclusion issues.

One thing that all businesses can do now is get a certificate for cyber-essentials, which is a programme that helps businesses to protect themselves better. I am very hesitant to jump to conclusions about overseas involvement in this situation at JLR, but of course the Government take very seriously the fact that there are undoubtedly foreign state actors who want to interfere in our businesses and, for that matter, in the way we do politics in this country. We need to keep our eyes wide open for that.

[Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)]

This cyber-attack is terrible news for Jaguar Land Rover and its supply chain. Many of those companies are based in and around my constituency. Pool Re is a publicly owned insurance provider that provides insurance cover for physical terrorist attacks, invests in terrorism reassurance initiatives, and has £2.3 trillion of assets on its books. Have the Government considered extending the reach of that publicly backed insurance scheme to cyber-incidents such as this one?

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend has stumped me there. I do not have the faintest idea. I will have to write to him with an answer to that one.

[Sir Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities, and on behalf of the many JLR employees in my constituency, welcome anything the Government can and will do to get JLR back to business as usual as soon as possible. On our broader defences, the Computer Misuse Act 1990 is 35 years old, and there are many who believe that its provisions impede the work of cyber-security professionals almost as much as, if not more than, cyber-criminals. Will he take this incident as an incentive to look again at the provisions of that Act, and to update it, as we need to, to make sure that cyber-security professionals can help companies such as JLR to deal with incidents just like this one?

[Chris Bryant]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes a very good point about legislation that is somewhat out of date and needs renewing. That is one of the reasons why, as we stated in the King’s Speech, we will introduce a new cyber Bill. I see the Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Kanishka Narayan), nodding. If we do not do that properly, I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will table an amendment to the Bill when it is debated.

[Dame Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Minister on his new role. I am sorry that we never had the opportunity to welcome him to the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee when he was at the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, but I believe I see the new artificial intelligence and cyber Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Kanishka Narayan), sitting on the Front Bench, and I look forward to welcoming and congratulating him.

The devastating JLR cyber-attack is one of a series of cyber-attacks that have been wreaking havoc on British businesses and consumers and undermining public confidence. Will the Minister confirm my understanding that neither JLR nor Marks & Spencer are deemed to be providers of essential services under cyber legislation, and are therefore not required to meet the highest levels of cyber-security and reporting requirements? If that is the case, will that change under the new cyber-security and resilience Bill, which he mentioned? If not, how will he improve cyber-resilience in our industry and society without such measures?

[Chris Bryant]

It is interesting, is it not? My hon. Friend makes a very good point. There is a balancing act for us to achieve: we do not want to overburden businesses with requirements, but we want to make sure they take every action to ensure they are properly protected. I will write to my hon. Friend if I have got this wrong, but my understanding is that those companies are not presently included. I am afraid that she will have to wait for the Bill, but our intention is that it will directly relate to things like energy and water supply—drinking water and things like that. As I say, it is a balancing act, trying to make sure that industry has the freedom to operate as it should while embodying the best practice.

One other thing I will say is that all businesses, whether large or small, should avail themselves of the early warning tool available from the National Cyber Security Centre whenever they think that they may have had an attack. It is really important that we have a real idea of the prevalence of this problem across the whole sector, and that we are able to join up the dots between different incidents.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister to the world of “neither confirm nor deny”, though I fear it may cramp his inimitable style somewhat. Does he accept that there are broadly three categories of hacker? There are the show-offs, who are aiming to boost their egos in the online world; the wreckers, who are usually working on behalf of hostile countries or political ideologies; and the extortionists to whom he referred earlier, who are out to blackmail people and relieve them of large amounts of money. In every case, though, there is always the anxiety that people’s personal data is going to be compromised and publicised. To that end, is the Minister really satisfied that so many Government services that deal with personal data—the latest being His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs—insist that people go online to supply that data to Government?

[Chris Bryant]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point about personal data. When I was the data Minister, that was one of the things I was trying to push very strongly—there is no point in trying to get people to give data if it is not then secure. That is the single most important part of what we have to do, not least because if people do not trust that their data is going to be secure, it is perfectly understandable that they are not going to surrender it. That does not just apply to Government, although it is very important in Government; it applies across all sorts of different companies.

I slightly take issue with the right hon. Gentleman’s delineation of those three groups; I think there is just one, which is a bunch of criminals. Their intent sometimes mixes a desire for cash with a desire for some kind of spurious infamy, but I just think of all of them as criminals. As for my inimitable style, I can neither confirm nor deny it.

[Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

I agree with those Members who have raised concerns about the impact that this cyber-attack might have on jobs. It also has an impact on our reputation as a country when two iconic brands basically have to go offline. I do not expect that this will be the last attack on either a retailer or an automotive company, but the risks to automotive companies are particularly acute, because going forward, cars are basically going to be computers on wheels. Customers will be concerned about what attacks mean for their security, but also about what the impact on the automated features within the car means for driver safety. The Minister said that the UK is increasingly a target; is that because of the interest in the UK, or because we are more susceptible?

[Chris Bryant]

No, I meant that every country in the world is increasingly susceptible, not just the UK. This is a growing business, and the worst thing we could do would be to feed that business model. I would urge caution about one thing. It may well be that we do not know all the incidents that have taken place, because understandably, lots of companies will not want to make them known publicly if they feel that they have managed to deal with the issue fairly swiftly. That is why, as I said, we consulted on the issue of ransomware earlier this summer, and I was gratified by the response we had from more than 70% of businesses.

[David Chadwick (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe) (LD)]

Fundamentally, this is a question about resilience across British industry. These attacks are costing British industries millions of pounds a day. What are the Government doing to facilitate knowledge-sharing within industry to boost resilience and guard against operational technology attacks? I know from personal experience that people in the cyber industries like to share information together, but require a forum to do so.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Member is right. For that matter, I suspect that every single Member of the House will have had some kind of attempted cyber-attack, whether that is phishing or vishing or whatever it may be on their mobile phones, where something comes up that looks remarkably possible. Then you say to yourself, “Oh, no, HMRC probably wouldn’t ask me to do that.” I urge all Members, incidentally, to take their own personal cyber-security seriously, and the House provides facilities for that. One other thing that we can do is for all companies to follow the cyber governance code of practice and provide board training. The more that board members understand these issues, the better.

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the Minister to his role. Previously, I inadvertently suggested that he was not a national treasure, and I would like to set the record straight on that one. More and more often, businesses and charities in my constituency of Harlow are reliant on the internet for sales, for trade and for human resources services. What reassurance and advice can the Minister give to charities and businesses in Harlow, if they are worried that they might be the next victims of such attacks?

[Chris Bryant]

Basically, every organisation in the country should be considering whether they might be the next under attack. It is possible that there might already have been an attempted attack on them. Obviously, iconic brands such as M&S and JLR are possible candidates in that sense, but I urge all organisations to take these issues seriously, because the costs are dramatic, both financially and in staff power.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

Cyber-security costs are rarely taken into account by any company, but for a company such as JLR, such costs should be easily absorbed because of its profit margins. SMEs do not have that luxury. Their profit margins will not necessarily cover the costs, and often they hold just as much personal and financial data. The Government should be coming alongside those businesses and assisting them to ensure that their security is industry-standard and that they are secure. Can the Minister give me an update on that?

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Member is absolutely right that it is not just about big companies, listed companies or, for that matter, big organisations in the public sphere; it is also about much smaller ones, which may have all sorts of different attacks. I am not sure whether she is asking for financial support.

[Carla Lockhart]

indicated assent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Ah, she is. I saw the nod. I am not sure how Hansard records a nod, other than the fact that I have now said it. The important point is making sure that everybody has an understanding that cyber-security is important to every single organisation, big or small, and the services of the state are there to help.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Luke Pollard. [Interruption.] Sorry, Richard Foord.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

The Minister talked about a cross-Government approach, and last week the Ministry of Defence stood up the cyber and specialist operations command, building on the foundations of strategic command and bringing together more than 26,000 specialists. Can the Minister comment on what collaboration exists between officials at the Department for Business and Trade and those working in this area in the MOD?

[Chris Bryant]

The primary relationship is between my Department, because we have responsibility for businesses and making sure that they can prosper in the future, the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, as represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Kanishka Narayan) here, and the Minister for Security in the Home Office, but the hon. Member makes a good point. The MOD has an equal responsibility for ensuring that we are all secure.

Mr Speaker, I am sure that some kind of digital identification service will be available for identifying the right MP to call.

[Mr Speaker]

Finally, I call Jim Shannon.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Always rear gunner. I am pleased to see the Minister in his position. It is well earned, and we are pleased to see him where he is. He will be aware that cyber-attacks on Marks & Spencer and Co-op have left many people concerned about the security of their information online. This attack on Jaguar will heighten those concerns, and businesses in my constituency have told me that. I have been contacted by people who are concerned about the ramifications of a cyber-attack on the Government’s systems, particularly in health. What discussions have been held with Cabinet colleagues on the robustness of cyber-defence, and what information can be shared with private businesses to help them defend themselves against these criminals that we all fear?

[Chris Bryant]

In fact, the first of these big cyber-attacks was on the British Library, which is an arm’s length body of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, so some of these lessons were taught immediately to Government. The hon. Member is absolutely right, and we need to make sure across every Department that not only is data—personal data and all other kinds of data—secure where it needs to be, if it is not open-source, but that cyber-attacks can be rebuffed, spotted and prevented at all costs. That is an ongoing piece of work between the different parts of Government. When we are able to bring forward the cyber Bill in the very near future—sorry, soon—I hope that we will be able to address some of these things and discuss them in the round in the House.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Consideration of Lords message
Tuesday 21st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The concern is that we would simply drive people into a black market; that seems to have happened in Ireland. The CMA has said that capping prices, which is what the Opposition want, would not reduce the incentive to resell, for exactly the reasons my hon. Friend has pointed out, so through the Bill, we are taking the pragmatic step of increasing the enforcement of current regulations, while also looking at the wider picture, in the review, to see whether improvements can be made. We think that is the right balance.

In conclusion, I encourage this House to agree with the Government’s position on Lords amendment 104B, and accept the Government’s proposed amendments (a) and (b) in lieu. It is imperative that Royal Assent be achieved without further delay, so that the legislation can be implemented and the Bill’s benefits realised as quickly as possible.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I beg to move manuscript amendment (a), leave out from “House” and insert

“agrees with the Lords in their Amendment”.

I confess that I am completely perplexed as to why the Government have adopted the attitude that they have taken today. The Bill could have gone through both Houses quite easily and have steamed ahead to Royal Assent if they had simply agreed to these very minor recommendations from the House of Lords. We do something very similar to what the amendment suggests in relation to Olympics tickets, partly because the Olympics’ organisers insist on such legislation for any Olympics, but we also do something very similar for sporting events. The question of why we do not do exactly the same for music, comedy and other events is legitimate.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

The Minister has only just sat down, but now he is intervening on me.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I just wanted to address one of the points that the hon. Gentleman makes. He talks about the Olympics, for which there was a complete ban on resale. Is that what he is proposing?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

No. If the Minister will listen for a few more minutes, I will get on to precisely what we recommend. Indeed, he may remember that in the last debate on this issue, I said very clearly that we do not intend to ban all resale. If somebody has a ticket that they bought themselves, not through a bot, but is unable to use it and wants to resell it, that should be a perfectly legitimate process, but the price should be capped at a sensible level—at something like 10% or 15% above the original cost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Indeed. I will come to authorised resale later, because it is a real problem with the way that the market operates. Fans are very unclear whether the ticket they have bought through the secondary market is authorised by the original vendor—that is, the venue or one of its authorised vendors—and therefore whether they will actually be admitted in the end. That is one of the problems: even when fans are paying very inflated prices, they are not certain that the ticket they are buying is a genuine ticket that will gain them admittance to the event they have paid for.

Over the years, Members have repeatedly given evidence—

[Sir Philip Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I ask the hon. Gentleman to let me make a little progress. I am still on the first sentence of my speech.

Over the years, Members have repeatedly given evidence that the secondary ticket market is not working: with tickets advertised with no declaration as to whether they are real, or of their face value; websites that only declare the face value of a ticket at the very last stage, with a clock ticking away and the fan already hooked; fake tickets being sold, leaving consumers out of pocket and completely in the lurch; tickets sold without evidence of proof of purchase, or of the seller’s title to the tickets; and websites circumventing artists and venues’ policies on the resale of tickets.

Taylor Swift tickets with a face value of £75 are presently selling on Viagogo for £6,840. If a Foo Fighters fan from the Rhondda wanted to buy a ticket to see them at Cardiff’s Principality Stadium, it would have cost them £95 direct from that stadium; on Viagogo today, that exact same ticket would cost them £395. If a child from the Rhondda who loves space and hopes to one day become an aeronautical engineer wanted to see “Tim Peake: Astronauts - The Quest to Explore Space” at Swansea Arena, they would have paid £48.75 face value; on Viagogo, they would have to find £134. This is about much more than just price gouging and ripping people off from their hard-earned money: it is robbing children of their chance to be inspired, to spark a creative idea, to see a career in our growing creative industries, or to learn from an expert. That is why I wish the Government were adopting the measure passed by the House of Lords.

Fans, the people who really create the value, are being excluded from live concerts. The UK’s secondary ticketing market is estimated to be worth £1 billion annually, but it is rife with fraud and scamming, which affects people every single day. I would not even mind if just some of the inflated price money went into the creative industries, and into training young people and providing them with a creative education, but not a single penny of it does. It is set to get worse, too: ticketing security expert Reg Walker has reported “a massive escalation” of harvesting using software. People who have long used bots to bulk-buy items such as iPhones are now turning to ticket touting because it is more profitable, and according to Reg Walker, there is a new generation of young, tech-savvy armchair touts

“smashing ticket systems to bits”.

It is a market that simply does not work, and Labour will fix it.

The Lords have given us a perfectly sensible measure. Their amendment establishes a legal requirement that secondary ticketing facilities must not permit a trade or business to list tickets without evidence of proof of purchase or evidence of title, a matter not mentioned by the Minister. It forbids a reseller from selling more tickets to an event than they can legally purchase on the primary market. It requires the face value of any ticket listed for resale, and the trader or business’s name and trading address, to be clearly visible in full on the first page on which a purchaser can view the ticket—I have had a bit of debate with the Minister about that proposal, so I will come on to the specifics later. It also requires the Government to lay before Parliament the outcomes of a review of the effect of these measures on the secondary ticketing market within nine months of Royal Assent. I cannot understand why any sane person would oppose such a measure, unless it was purely and simply for ideological reasons.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

On such ideological reasons, the Conservative party claims to be the party of Adam Smith, but if we read “The Wealth of Nations”, we see that the behaviour of the rentier class is not exactly praised by Adam Smith, and this is pure rent seeking. As the hon. Gentleman said, this is taking a ticket at £75, charging 90 times that and doing nothing to add any value at all. This is rent seeking, and ideologically it should be opposed by the Conservative party.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

The hon. Member makes a very good point. Indeed, in the main the market is a good thing—it can operate to produce good and efficient outcomes in society—but in this case the market is not working, and where the market does not work, the state has to intervene.

I cannot understand why any sane person should oppose such a measure, but unfortunately the Government have. Their amendment (a) in lieu is a weak sock puppet of a concession. It does not strengthen the rules; it simply leaves them in place. It does not prevent tickets from being sold without evidence of proof of purchase or the seller’s title to the tickets. It does not limit the quantity of resale tickets to the original number limited by the seller or artist. It leaves in place the current system for showing the face value of a ticket, despite the fact that section 90(8) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, in my view and in the view of everybody who has spoken to Members about this, is very opaque and open to interpretation—or, I would argue, open to deliberate misinterpretation by the secondary ticketing market.

For instance, Viagogo does not say “face value”, but has a little box that says “FV”, which is not explained anywhere on the website, and people have to click on that. If Viagogo genuinely wanted to be open and transparent, it would say “face value”, and put the price at the very beginning. StubHub is similarly advertising tickets for Taylor Swift on 21 June at £711, but nowhere on the first page does it give the face value. I note that, if someone goes on to the second page, it says $75 there, but I am told that that is not the actual cost of the ticket. Seatsnet has tickets for Murrayfield—for Taylor Swift again—selling at £1,294.79 or £1,092.15 each, and nowhere does it give the face value of the tickets. Interestingly, AEG Presents and AXS, which are managing the tickets for the concerts at Murrayfield, say that tickets are strictly not to be resold:

“Any tickets found to be purchased via re-sale on the non-official secondary market will not be valid for entry into the concerts.”

In other words, it is completely in doubt whether the tickets being sold at £711 or £1,294 are tickets that will actually gain admittance for an individual.

[James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman referred to Viagogo, and I have just gone on to its website. He mentioned the “FV” symbol, but when I click on it, it tells me the face value of the ticket. Did I misunderstand the point he made?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Yes, the hon. Member did misunderstand the point I made. Why does it not just say “face value”, instead of “FV”, which would be perfectly simple? For that matter, why should people have to click on it? The point of the Lords amendment is very clear, and it is that people should know from the very first time they see the ticket what the face value of that ticket is. I am perfectly happy, if people want to be scammed, that they should be free to be scammed, but they should at least know from the very first point at which they seek to buy a ticket what the face value of the ticket is.

[Sir Philip Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I will give way to the hon. Member, although I am keen to move on.

[Sir Philip Davies]

I am very grateful. As the hon. Gentleman was struggling so much with the previous intervention, I thought I would intervene and give him a way out. If he gets his way, all that will happen is that all of these tickets sold on the secondary market will be sold by spivs outside the location of an event. Why does the hon. Gentleman think that consumers will be better protected by spivs selling these tickets outside the event than by their being sold on official secondary ticket markets?

[Mrs Hodgson]

Because of the scale!

[Sir Chris Bryant]

The secondary ticket market is the spivs: it is precisely the same set of people scamming the system and the public. They are taking advantage of people’s desire to get tickets, and thereby making the market simply not work in the interests of the creators of the art, the fans, or the stadiums and venues themselves. That is why we want to take action.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right about the market not working. The point that has been missed hugely by Conservative Members is that a finite number of tickets are going on sale, and this finite number is being gobbled up by the spivs, speculators and whoever online. He mentions the guys outside a venue, but they can only hold so many tickets. It is the scale of this, as I heard the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) say from a sedentary position. Without the Lords amendment that has been proposed, this is being allowed on an industrial scale. Why are the Government and the Conservative party willing to see people ripped off? It is just unbelievable.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I rather agree with the idea that some Conservative Members actually want people to be ripped off, and maybe that is what we have seen for the last 14 years when we have seen taxes rise, but what we get for the taxes has diminished.

The Minister says that he wants to give more powers to the CMA to be able to enforce the action. The problem with that is that the CMA itself gave evidence that, when it tried to take Viagogo to court, it came up against inherent weaknesses in the existing consumer protection toolkit, and the Government are not adding anything to that consumer protection toolkit whatsoever. Indeed, they are deliberately voting down precisely what they said they wanted.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

No, the Minister will get to reply afterwards, I am sure. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] So the Minister is begging. I will give way to his begging.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I beg the hon. Member’s leave, but can I draw his attention to the comments of the CMA before the Bill Committee? One witness said exactly this in response to the point he has just raised:

“We think that many of the changes in the Bill will address those weaknesses directly by giving us civil fining powers for the first time.”––[Official Report, Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill Public Bill Committee, 13 June 2023; c. 7, Q3.]

It is not right to say that the CMA is getting no more ability to oversee this regime.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

No, because I read that completely differently from the way the Minister does. If the Minister were right, why is it only at this stage that he has chosen to bring forward amendment (a) in lieu? Precisely as with every single step of the way on ticket touting that we have seen over the last 14 years, somebody moves an amendment in the House of Lords—quite often Lord Moynihan, wonderful man that he is—and the Government are dragged kicking and screaming to introduce sensible measures that have cross-party support, but that the Government object to for some bizarre ideological reasons.

Labour will strengthen the consumer rights legislation to protect fans from fraudulent ticket practices, restricting the resale of more tickets than permissible and ensuring anybody buying a ticket from the secondary market can see—clearly, easily, readily and absolutely unambiguously —what the original price of that ticket was and where it came from. All of this could have been done today if the Government had not rejected the Lords amendment, but supported Labour on the cross-party amendment from the Lords. However, they have put touts before fans, and profits before the public.

If Labour is given the chance to form a Government, we will also go further. We will restrict the resale of tickets at more than a small set percentage over the price the original purchaser paid for it. No more touts buying a £50 ticket and selling it on for £500; no more bulk buying of seats for Taylor Swift concerts that could go to a 13-year-old fan from Wigan, but instead go to a millionaire from the US. No more scalping of our creative industries and artists, who set reasonable prices for their tickets, only to find somebody else making money off their talent and hard work by reselling them at 10 times the price. Ministers say that the CMA will enforce more, but I doubt that anything will change as a result of anything the Government are intending to do with this measure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will address the points that have been raised during the debate.

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) presented a cap on ticket prices as his solution to this problem, but that flies in the face of the evidence given by the CMA in its report. It said that such a measure would not significantly diminish the incentive, and the misconduct would therefore continue. However, it was good to hear the hon. Gentleman finally admit that the market is a good thing—that, coming from an Opposition Member, is a revelation.

There is a common factor between what was said by the hon. Gentleman and what was said by the other contributors to the debate. He said, for instance, that face value was not made sufficiently clear on the various secondary sites, but there is a key saying clearly what face value is on the first pages of the Viagogo and StubHub websites. All those points relate to one thing and one thing only, namely enforcement, because the requirements are there in the existing legislation. We are keen to bolster enforcement. He says that we are somehow kicking and screaming to do so with this amendment, despite the fact that this Government have unilaterally brought forward this legislation. Part 3 offers huge new powers that were not added through an amendment in the Commons or the Lords; they were on the face of the Bill from day one.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

The Minister knows that Taylor Swift tickets are being sold. The organisers of those concerts have said that tickets sold on unauthorised secondary ticket markets are not valid. Would he therefore encourage people to buy tickets only from authorised ticket vendors and not from those that are unauthorised, which include Viagogo?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I would certainly advise any consumer to comply with the rules set out by the primary market. It is quite clear that the primary markets can do a lot more about restricting secondary sales, and we have been quoted examples of that today, including the way the Olympics was run, the way that football matches are run and the way that Glastonbury is run. All those things have very tight controls on secondary markets, which is in the gift of the primary market.

The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) asked about resources, as did the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil). The CMA’s budget is £122 million, so we feel that it has the necessary resources available to it. The fines and penalties can be kept by the CMA for its enforcement activities.

The hon. Members for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) made similar points about the inappropriate resale of tickets—for England football matches, for example—and refunds that have not been processed properly. Only six people have been prosecuted for abuse in this sector, and we want to see more. Prosecutions for the use of bots have not been brought forward, and the amendment allows the CMA to do that. All the concrete action that the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South calls for is about enforcement, not more regulations. I absolutely agree with that, and we want to ensure that there is more enforcement in this space.

It is of paramount importance that we get this Bill on to the statute book so that it can start delivering for businesses and consumers as soon as possible. I thank all who have helped to get to this place, including the Clerks, the officials in the Department and the Bill team. I thank them for their hard work on this legislation, and I hope that all Members will feel able to support our position.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Universal Postal Service Order: Rhondda

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Westminster Hall

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the universal postal service order in Rhondda constituency.

It is a delight to see you in the Chair for the first time, Mr Henderson. Congratulations on your elevation—some have greatness thrust upon them. I should say that I am here as a Back Bencher, although I am quite often up against the Minister from the Front Bench. It is a different kind of arrangement today.

The universal service obligation, which is an essential part of delivering many public services up and down the land, says that there should be letter delivery six days a week, next-day delivery for first-class letters—which we all know are now quite expensive—and delivery within three days for second-class letters. I fully understand that recent years have been tough for Royal Mail. Letters are down from 14.3 billion in 2011-12 to 7.3 billion in 2022-23, and parcels are up from 2.6 billion in 2018-19 to 3.6 billion in 2022-23. It would be very easy for Royal Mail to conclude that its future lies in parcels, not in letters, but I want to say on behalf of my constituents in the Rhondda—I suspect that MPs from every constituency in the land would say the same—that the service they are getting at the moment does not meet the universal service obligation. That is a problem for individuals, our public services and our economy.

Let me talk through some of the issues that my constituents have faced. In the past three years, my office has dealt with a vast number of cases that have come in by email, letter and phone. We have created more than 100 individual pieces of casework relating to Royal Mail issues. All those cases share some very specific issues: sporadic arrival of mail, sometimes no mail at all received for weeks, and large bundles arriving at once. These are not people complaining that they are not getting any letters from anybody because nobody loves them; they are people saying they know a letter is due and it does not arrive, even when it has a first-class stamp on it. The most common complaint is late delivery, resulting in missed hospital appointments and fines.

These are not isolated locations in the Rhondda; the issue affects the whole of the constituency. It is a persistent problem that residents have been reporting since 2019. I have tried regularly to get to the nub of these issues with local managers. I am endlessly promised that they will be sorted, and they never are.

Of course, all my constituents are full of praise for their local postal workers, who deliver in rain and sunshine—I worry about sunshine because I have had melanoma and I know the dangers of skin cancer, so I want to make sure there is proper protection for postal workers. Many of the issues that postal workers face are the same ones that my constituents complain about.

Postal workers have told us about the following issues. There are not enough base staff to cover all rounds. Staff holidays and staff sickness come at peak times, making it impossible to maintain the USO. Management prioritises parcels over post—I know the Business and Trade Committee has looked at that closely. There is clear evidence that that is still happening, and it is problematic. Rounds are far too big and undeliverable. Vans are not large enough for parcels and the post, so postal workers have to go back to the sorting office and make multiple trips, and no overtime is offered for that.

I have met the Royal Mail management team at the sorting offices multiple times, and they always say that it is a matter of staff sicknesses and that it is all going to be sorted next time, but it never is. I have also been told anonymously that staff are paid overtime to clear the mail before I get there so that when I arrive at the sorting office, it is all perfect and there is no mail waiting to go out, but once I have gone somebody gets back in the van and it goes back into the sorting office. If that is true, it is obviously a deliberate attempt to mislead the Member of Parliament, and I am sure the Minister would want to condemn it.

I will just go through some of the specific cases we have had—

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Yes, I can—I think it is fine.

[Gordon Henderson (in the Chair)]

As long as it is to do with the Rhondda.

[Jim Shannon]

Absolutely. I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing forward this issue; he is right. Does he agree that there must be a greater obligation under the universal postal service order for availability in rural areas? I understand that that is an issue for him too. There is no substitute for a full-service post office, and those obligations should be clearly defined in law. I think the hon. Gentleman is pushing for that. If it were in law, that would be to his advantage and to everybody else’s too.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

To be honest, I just want to get it sorted in my constituency. I want Royal Mail to do the job that it is required to do by law already, and I just do not think that that is happening. I suspect that 650 MPs could give exactly the same story.

Let me give one instance. Nicola Thomas wrote to me about the delivery of letters from the local health board:

“I received an invite to book an appointment, a reminder of that invitation, and a letter saying ‘we’ve removed you from the list because we haven’t heard from you’ all in the same delivery.”

That is clearly a nonsense.

Another resident told me that all her mail takes over three weeks to arrive. She received a letter on 15 April that was dated 19 March. She is disabled. She has had numerous hospital appointment notifications that have not arrived on time. When she called the hospital to apologise for not attending, they say everyone is having the same problem, and I can confirm that. She has tried to call the clinic and sorting office. Nobody ever answers. She has tried calling the main headquarters. Nobody ever answers. Her postie told her that his boss at Clydach said that parcels take priority over letters. That is manifestly wrong. Her partner, who lives in Porth, where I also live, paid £70 to have their mail redirected, but the new tenant is still bringing letters to him. They have also tried to complain, but they can never speak to a human.

A resident in William Street in Ystrad said:

“We only get mail every 3/4 weeks, this has been an ongoing issue since last November. They’ve now stopped delivering parcels too. Royal mail have said there isn’t enough time for the post person to deliver to William street at all, with no plans to resolve the issue. I have to go to the sorting office in Ferndale if I want to receive any mail which is sometimes difficult with the restrictive opening hours.”

I agree about the restricted opening hours. We all know the saga: one of those little notes has been put through the door saying that they tried to deliver a parcel and but no one was there. Sometimes it feels as if it is the five minutes that no one was in the house that they managed to find that moment to put it through, but now they have restricted the hours when parcels can be picked up from the sorting office as well. This is not a proper service that is effective or efficient for my community.

Ethan Jenkins says:

“Postmen are now delivering for Amazon and Yodel as well as their own. They are delivering stuff daily that can be picked up at your local store still delivering toilet rolls, crates of alcohol, crates of pop. What they’re delivering shouldn’t be delivered by Royal Mail but a courier whose only job is parcels.”

This is a real issue for Royal Mail. They must ensure that letters get through.

Gaynor Harvey said:

“I think that most of us are having difficulty getting our mail delivered. I’m not sure that there’s any difference between a first class or second class stamp anymore except for the price of the stamp. Mail locally can take up to a week to get where it’s supposed to.”

Nita Bianca from Trealaw said:

“We’re lucky to get post once every 2 or 3 weeks in Trealaw. I’ve missed numerous hospital appointments due to this, and I probably would have missed a lot more if I didn’t have the NHS text reminder to tell me I have an upcoming appointment”.

Letters will always be important for the local health board, for the simple reason that lots of people in my constituency do not have internet access at home. Because of GDPR, it is difficult to send appointment invitations via email, as it cannot be guaranteed that the only person who will open that email is the person to whom it is directed. Many people simply do not have smartphones, particular the elderly who rely on NHS services in my constituency, which makes it all the more important that we ensure that letters can get through.

Significant numbers of my constituents have been caught speeding. Whether the speed limit is 20 mph, 30 mph, 40 mph or 50 mph, it does not matter; people get caught speeding or get caught in a yellow box, and they are sent a notice by the local police force or safety team. Often these notices arrive three or four weeks late, long after the date before which it is possible simply to fess up and pay half the fine. That adds to the administrative burden and the cost to individuals, and sometimes these letters get completely lost, which is problematic for public services, local government and my constituents.

My colleague, Senedd Member for the Rhondda Buffy Williams, did a report on this a few weeks ago. It emphasised two things. First, this is a significant problem for a large number of my constituents—26% of the people who responded to her survey said that they had missed NHS appointments. I do not need to underline the issue because we all know that there is a problem across the whole United Kingdom with the backlog in the NHS. If the NHS is sending out invitations to appointments and people do not get them in time, and then do not turn up, that is a hideous waste of resources in the NHS. Ensuring that Royal Mail performs its function properly is part of ensuring that we get the NHS back on—

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I think I am meant to take only one intervention in these short debates, if the hon. Member does not mind. I am not quite sure of my timing. Mr Henderson, you may want to remind me how much longer I should go on for—the Minister will always say, “Stop now”, but—[Laughter.] I heard that laughter over there.

Post matters. Letters matter. It is not just about appointments and fines but about banks. Quite often, they send out material that needs to get to the person in a timely fashion, including credit cards, bank cards and so on. That is all the more important now, because we do not have a single bank left in the Rhondda constituency, and several of the banks are now closing in Pontypridd. Any kind of physical contact with a bank might mean going down into Cardiff, which would be a considerable journey for many people in my constituency. Yet again, it is all the more important that we have a proper system.

Birthday cards also matter. It would be really nice if everybody in the Rhondda who was sent a birthday card with a first-class stamp got it on their birthday, rather than two or three weeks after. I cannot tell you how many constituents have told me how upset they have felt when no birthday cards have arrived at all, when they know that their family would always want to ensure that they arrived on time.

There are important things that Royal Mail needs to do. First, if it is true that it has been trying to obscure the problems it has locally, it should apologise, make it clear that it has done that, and not do it again. Secondly, it needs to employ enough staff to do the job properly, and it needs to value those staff, so that they feel enthused about coming into work, rather than feeling constantly battered into submission by a system that simply does not allow them the room to do their job properly. Thirdly, it needs to ensure that letters are prioritised and not treat them like second-rate citizens compared with parcels. Whatever Royal Mail’s future aspirations for the USO may be, I am not here to talk about that today. I simply want it to adhere to the USO today. That means first-class letters being delivered the next day.

I also want Royal Mail to have a proper process for complaints, so that it can log the issues that arise. If a customer cannot speak to an individual when they ring about not having any post for three weeks, and they are worried about whether there is a letter coming from the NHS, surely to goodness there must be a proper system of logging that and ensuring that it happens. Finally, I would dearly love for Royal Mail in the Rhondda to get back to the system we had maybe 10 years ago, when all of that functioned much more efficiently. That is in the interest of our public services, our constituents and our community. It would just be nice if it were easy to pick up a parcel. I note, Mr Henderson, that you are encouraging me to shut up. I shall shut up now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Thank you, Mr Henderson. On the universal service obligation, I know the general obligation was not something that the hon. Member for Rhondda focused too much on, but it is important to say that we believe the six-days-a-week service should remain. We have been very clear about that. Ofcom has the primary duty to secure its provision. Despite the fact that letter volumes have halved in the last decade, which has put further pressure on making the service viable, it is right that the Prime Minister and I make it clear that the importance of maintaining a Saturday delivery service is that it provides flexibility and convenience. We will not countenance scrapping it, not least because of the impact that would have on the greeting card, magazine and similar industries.

I will come to Rhondda specifically, but on the main point the hon. Member for Rhondda raised about the general quality of service, we understand that we have had a number of complaints. It is one of the most frequent items that comes across my desk in correspondence or meetings with fellow Members of Parliament. Ofcom obviously has the powers to investigate and take enforcement action where failures are identified. It did so when it fined Royal Mail £5.6 million earlier this year for its contravention of conditions in 2022-23. Ofcom is obviously monitoring this to make sure that the service improves.

The latest published quality of service results for quarter 3 of 2023-24 showed that Royal Mail continues to fail to meet its first and second class delivery targets. It is quite clear that the service is not at the level we want to see. I met Martin Seidenberg, chief executive of the parent group, and made that point to him clearly. He accepted that this was the case, and that things need to improve. One thing about prioritisation, which the hon. Gentleman referred to, is that—

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I did not.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

To be clear, the hon. Gentleman was referring to whether Royal Mail is prioritising parcels over letters. Ofcom looked at that to see whether it was a feature of some of the problems behind the service level, and it did not identify any suggestion that Royal Mail’s senior management had directed the prioritisation of parcels. Nevertheless, I think we are all concerned about anecdotal stories at a local level that suggest it may be the case. We absolutely do not want to see that happen.

The strategy for Royal Mail that Martin Seidenberg set out gave me some comfort, although it is actions not words that we want to see. It included accelerated recruitment of permanent workers, reinforced operational management at regional and local levels, and tackling sickness and absence. Three thousand additional postal workers have been recruited, and Royal Mail has introduced new sickness and attendance policies, which it claims are playing a significant part in reducing absence.

Royal Mail recently delivered its best-performing Christmas period in four years, with more than 99% of items posted before the last recommended posting dates arriving by Christmas eve. It is encouraging that following an agreement with the Communication Workers Union, results are beginning to improve, with sickness absence reportedly down by about 25% by the end of December compared with 2022, and only 0.2% of the daily 54,000 walks could not be resourced on any given day by the end of December. Royal Mail advises that its most recent performance data from the start of 2024 is much stronger, particularly the service levels for first class mail, reflecting some of the changes that have been made.

As I say, it is actions we want, not words. I know that the hon. Gentleman will not be satisfied until he sees changes on the ground.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I wonder whether the Minister could do me a favour. Could he ask Royal Mail to provide data for my area every month on how they are doing with the USO and how much they are meeting? I have tried to get that information myself, but I find it difficult. I am sure it would be more effective if he asked.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I will take that away, and I am very happy to look at it, because I believe in holding Royal Mail’s feet to the fire. There may be an advantage if we look at that at constituency level.

I note the hon. Gentleman’s point that mail is sporadic and there is often no mail or it arrives late, resulting in missed appointments or fines and all those things. These are very serious issues, so I can understand his frustration. He said that he has had considerable contact with Royal Mail about those service issues, as is right—he is a very diligent Member of Parliament, and we urge other colleagues to do the same. Royal Mail reports that service in the area was disrupted due to sickness absence in some parts of his area being higher than average, and it was not a good picture across the board anyway. The time taken to recruit staff has also contributed to gaps in the service.

Royal Mail has acknowledged that it has not been able to deliver a consistently high level of service to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. I understand that the issues have centred around the Ferndale and Mid Rhondda delivery offices. In Ferndale I understand that last month there were six members of staff absent and that some customers may have experienced disruption to their deliveries. Royal Mail has now advised that absence levels have since been reduced, with fewer members of staff currently absent through sickness. In Mid Rhondda, there are currently three staff absent on sick leave and Royal Mail is currently recruiting an additional postal worker.

Royal Mail reports that it is currently delivering to all addresses served by both delivery offices six days a week when there is mail to deliver, and if postal workers cannot deliver on a given day, mail will be prioritised the next working day. We are assured that it is actively working on measures to restore service levels, and while it tries to tackle the local service issues, no address will go without a mail delivery for more than two days. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will update me regularly if that proves not to be the case.

I understand that the hon. Gentleman was due to visit one or both of those delivery offices in March, but that was postponed. He is looking at me very quizzically; maybe that was not the case. Royal Mail will be in touch with him to try to arrange a new date, if he would like to visit again. We would definitely urge Royal Mail to do that when constituency Members of Parliament are not happy.

The hon. Gentleman raised an important point about complaints. If he googles the Royal Mail customer service centre, which I am sure he has, there is a phone number and an online form to fill in. There is also an independent dispute resolution service—the postal redress service—which can try to resolve disputes. Citizens Advice can also provide assistance to constituents and constituency Members of Parliament to resolve these issues. He could also write to Ofcom to ensure that it is aware of the service difficulties he is experiencing. On his point about whether Royal Mail is obscuring the level of service, moving mail to a van outside and bringing it back in, that would be totally unacceptable. If the hon. Gentleman has evidence of that, will he please raise it with me or directly with Royal Mail?

The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the lack of banks and available cash on high streets. We have legislated for that, and post offices play an important part. I also look after them, as he will be aware. Banking hubs might feature in the towns and villages in his constituency in the coming months and years. I have also just replied to his letter on counterfeit stamps, which he should receive. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman acknowledges that he has received a copy.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Can I try again?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Yes, of course.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

It suddenly occurred to me that there might be a general election later this year. One part of what the Post Office is required to provide is the freepost delivery. How confident is the Minister that the Royal Mail will be able to deliver that in a timely fashion to the right constituents in the right places across the whole of the country?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

That is a matter close to both our hearts and those of others in the room today. Speaking from my own perspective, as someone who is not easily convinced or easily has the wool pulled over his eyes with reassurances, I was impressed by Martin Seidenberg, but people will be convinced only when services improve. I have set out some of the ways that they should improve. There is a personnel issue, as well as some management ones. There have been some steps forward, as I set out earlier. That should help to secure the improvements that the hon. Gentleman and I want to see.

As I said before, it is not words but actions that we want to see. I am happy to hear from Members across the House to ensure that service levels are where we want them to be. We are committed to ensuring that we have a financially sustainable and efficient universal postal service for all users in all constituencies. I would like to ensure that Members of this House are able to bring concerns to me whenever they or their constituents are disappointed with local services. I ask the hon. Gentleman please to ensure that I am aware of the difficulties that he sees on an ongoing basis. With that, I will conclude my remarks.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Gentleman has slightly jumped the gun, as the next question on the Order Paper relates to trade envoys. May I say how proud we are of the cross-party trade envoy programme, which I think he will hear about in a moment? We think they do an excellent, good value-for-money job for the United Kingdom in promoting trade in a number of key markets.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

6. What the travel costs of parliamentary trade envoys were in each of the last three years.

[The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)]

The Prime Minister’s trade envoys provide invaluable support in progressing the UK’s trade and investment agenda in 61 markets across the world. The travel costs incurred by the Prime Minister’s trade envoys were: £63,566 for the financial year 2021-22; £226,014 for 2022-23; and £232,325 for 2023-24. These costs were for flights, for accommodation when the official British residence was unavailable and for other sundry expenses.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

There is a great deal of murkiness about the trade envoys. I note that, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), the Minister point blank refused to deny that at least one trade envoy has explicitly asked for the exclusive use of a house while acting as a trade envoy. The Minister has point blank refused to publish the breakdown of all the trade envoys and their costs for absolutely spurious reasons. If a Select Committee visits South Korea, for instance, all the details of the costs are published, but not if a trade envoy goes. How can we possibly judge whether the £750,000 that has been spent so far in the past three years has been well spent? Is there any accountability whatsoever, or is this really just a means of providing sinecures for people who are liked in Government?

[Greg Hands]

Well, there is a lot of bluster there and not a few accusations. The hon. Gentleman may wish to try to stack these things up a bit. It is a cross-party programme, not a Government-only programme. Many Labour MPs, Labour peers and others are members of the programme. Gifts and hospitality are already published in departmental registers. If I may say so, Mr Speaker, two qualifications for this cross-party role are diplomacy and discretion, which might explain why not everybody has been asked to do it.

Volunteers

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Westminster Hall

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Ms Nokes, there could not possibly be a better way of spending this afternoon than taking part in a debate under your Chair. As you pointed out to me earlier, it is not just a privilege, but a massive privilege to be sitting here taking part in this debate with you in the Chair. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) for bringing us to this debate.

However, I am scandalised by every single one of the contributions so far, because the largest number of volunteers who are out today are probably volunteering for political parties, and they have not even got a mention yet. They are the people who go out in sun and rain, in foul weather and fine. They sometimes get spat at—I have been shot at on one occasion. They get abuse, and sometimes they get people giving them a thumbs up, but they do it because they believe in the political system and in democracy. We all know that not one of us would ever be here if it were not for the contributions of volunteers in our political parties up and down the country. They will be far too busy today, but I put on record on behalf of us all, I am sure, our tribute to the volunteers in our political parties who do it for no other reward than the things that they believe in and trying to make a better world and a better country, in their individual ways.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Members for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) and for Gordon (Richard Thomson). I think we have all had the same briefing note from the Scouts, so I will not repeat anything; that would seem rather otiose, and you might rule me out of order, Ms Nokes. I disagree, however, with the Members who said that they are not going to list all the volunteers in their constituency, because I will refer to some from mine. I represent one of the poorest constituencies in the land and, one could argue, in Europe, according to some socioeconomic indicators.

The truth is that there are politicians who believe that private is always good and everything should be left to the market, and that public is bad and we should try to shrink the state. There are also those who believe that private is always bad because it is based on profit, and they want everything to be done by the state. I have never subscribed to either of those views—it is horses for courses—but I believe that the third sector is absolutely essential in making either of the other two sectors work. In fact, most of what we would consider as the welfare state—schools, hospitals and so on—sprang out of the churches and the voluntary sector originally. The NHS simply would not be able to function in most parts of the country without the support of volunteers. I do not necessarily mean people fundraising for scanners, running events locally or whatever, but all the additional bits that make the recuperative process possible for so many patients. Once they have had what they get from the NHS, they need that extra bit from the voluntary sector. If I look at my patch, organisations such as Valleys Kids have probably made more of a difference than any other organisation to the life opportunities of some of the kids in the most difficult families and parts of the country.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Yes, Bath calls!

[Wera Hobhouse]

Does the hon. Member agree that the charitable sector is so good at making the most out of every penny and doubling and tripling the amount invested by capturing the volunteering effort? However, they need a bit of seed funding and not to always be under threat of that funding being cut.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Absolutely. One of the difficulties comes when they end up with a memorandum of understanding, or some kind of contract with the local authority, or the local health board as we have in Wales—it is a different structure from England. They are then effectively part of the state sector, which makes them less flexible and less able to adapt to situations around them. That has been a worrying trend over the past 20 to 25 years. Maintaining that sustainability for them is the real challenge. That is one of the problems facing Valleys Kids at the moment: trying to make sure that they have a strong financial future.

There is also Sporting Marvels. Sometimes we refer to “charities”, which is quite a strict definition. But actually, lots of people volunteer for things that are not charities, but that, none the less, have a charitable end result, such as all the sporting bodies in my patch. That includes people who turn up as coaches on a Saturday and a Sunday morning for the football teams or for Ferndale rugby club. I will not go through all the rugby clubs in the Rhondda, but I am a patron of Ferndale rugby club, which has its presentation dinner in a few weeks.

So many of these organisations do not get any financial support from the state. Many do not even get charitable status and, for them, it is an even more complicated process. As has already been alluded to, the rules about what people can do—quite understandably, if they are working with children and so on—are onerous, complicated and difficult. Having done work on acquired brain injury, I am conscious that we want any coach working in football, rugby or cycling to have a full understanding of how the new rules and protocols work and when they should take a child off if they have had a concussion. All these things make people think twice about whether they should be engaged in volunteering. That is why the state sometimes has a role in trying to make sure that the process is as simple as possible and that the charities and all the different organisations have access to good, easy and readily understandable advice.

I will mention one other organisation, the Rhondda Polar Bears, of which I am also a patron. The charity teaches kids with a variety of different disabilities how to swim. I will probably see them later this evening at Ystrad sports centre, if I get back to the Rhondda in time.

[Richard Foord]

Given that the shadow Minister is a trustee of a charity, does he recognise that it can be beneficial for employers, including those in the private sector, to release staff for work in the voluntary sector?

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Yes—the next word of my speech was going to be “trustees”. That is a very important point. Obviously, school governors, magistrates or reservists in the armed forces have specific rules about what they can expect from their employers. Many employers are absolutely delighted to be able to support the work of their staff, although it is obviously much more difficult for those working in small companies. However, the point is made about trustees as well.

I was actually going to make a slightly different point about trustees. For all I know, it may be easy to find lots of trustees who know how to deal with the banking system or charitable law or whatever in Surrey; it is more difficult in some of the areas that most need that support. That is why organisations such as the NCVO and the Prince’s Trust have been really important in providing mentoring and support in areas such as mine in the south Wales valleys, where we would love to have more trustees. We often end up getting the same people to be the trustees of all the different charities and organisations, such as the Rhondda Arts Festival, which is coming up at the end of June. I am a trustee of that as well. Although I do not have any financial interest in that, I should declare it none the less.

There are also the individuals. Stan Power is no longer with us, but he was a veteran—he served. He took it upon himself for many years, as a member of the Royal British Legion, to make sure that anybody with whom he came into contact who had ever been in the armed forces in the Rhondda knew of every single type of support that they were entitled to claim for. He did that entirely off his own bat, but obviously with the support of the Royal British Legion. He was an absolutely wonderful man who made life-changing possibilities for dozens and dozens of people in my constituency. The more we can enable a few more of those people in every constituency in the land, the better.

I want to refer to a charity that works across the whole country, because it exemplifies the kind of problems we have at the moment, as alluded to by others, and that is Headway. The Minister knows about Headway, which is a charity that works with people who have had an acquired brain injury.

One of the great things we have done in recent years, because of the Government’s brave decision in some cases to create major trauma centres, is that we have saved the lives of many more people when they have been in an accident, many of them with brain injuries. However, getting them the quality of life that we would be able to bring them if they had full rehabilitation is very difficult. All the different therapies in hospitals are very stretched, which is often why we rely for rehab on charities such as Headway, up and down the country.

Most constituencies will have a Headway group. Headway has 1,100 volunteers helping with rehabilitation, 500 more working at setting up branches and 400 working in the retail shops. That is an important part of the network that enables people to get back a quality of life, which is important for the whole of our economy. This is not a partisan attack, but unfortunately the Government do not know how many people in the UK are living with an acquired brain injury—it is just not a known fact. We reckon it is somewhere in the region of 1.4 million, and the charitable sector probably has a better idea than others.

Headway, however, is struggling financially. Many of its branches are worrying about whether they will be able to continue, partly because of a lack of volunteers, but mostly because of a lack of finance. Rehabilitation and the kit needed is often expensive. I hope that at some point we have a major review of how charities end up with their funding, and how we can ensure that they are sustainable into the future.

Several Members have referred to the fact that volunteering is good for people. We can certainly see that in Headway. Often, the person who takes someone to their Headway group will have had a brain injury 10 years ago, was looked after and had rehab, was re-socialised, found a family of people, and then volunteered, volunteered a bit more and a bit more, got a few days’ work, and now is the full-time staff employee. That is rehabilitation and volunteering at its absolute best. We could repeat that of every other kind of charity that we have been talking about.

Volunteering is good for people. It makes them feel useful. It allows them to gain skills, especially because they might have to retrain in areas where they did not have the skills at all in the past. It re-socialises people and makes them feel happier. I note the point made about people in their retirement—I am 62 and some in the room are slightly older than I am, and perhaps thinking about what to do in retirement—and volunteering is an important part of still feeling that we have something to contribute. Often, important skills can be fed back into the community by older people.

There are problems. The significant collapse in the number of volunteers has been referred to, from one in four people of working age to one in six in the past few years, and that is problematic. In 2022, 40% of charities reported that a lack of volunteers meant that they could not progress, could not grow or could not even commit to the projects that they were already engaged in. Some areas, as I said, have found that particularly difficult, because of the financial barriers. If someone is struggling financially and economically to put food on the table for their kids, then the cost of the bus or train fare—even if it is only £2.90, £4.60 or whatever—is prohibitive. Many people will feel reluctant to ask the charity for the money, so they end up not volunteering at all. I would love it if there were some form of bank where all that need could be met. Perhaps that is a project for someone for the future—a particular charitable venture.

Local authorities have been facing enormous financial struggles. In my own patch, Rhondda Cynon Taf has found it difficult to maintain its financial commitments, let alone increase them in line with inflation, as has been needed over the past few years. That has meant that lots of charities have struggled. On top of that, people are not using charity shops so much, which has also had a knock-on effect on their income.

As I think has already been referred to, the Scouts have something in the region of 100,000 young people on waiting lists. Would it not be brilliant if we could get every single one of them into the Scouts? I am a scout from many years ago—I have a few badges, which I will not go into. We would love it if we could have more troops in the Rhondda, because there are kids who would like to do it. The same goes for the Sea Cadets and a whole series of other organisations. Those organisations give kids a sense of purpose and an idea of themselves; they provide a set of extracurricular of activities that offer a different form of learning. They give them confidence. In many ways, they are very similar to some of the creative industries. I would dearly love for the Scouts to be able to recruit far more volunteers.

I have a few final points. The first is about philanthropy. I sometimes look to other countries. On Tuesday night, I had dinner with Edward Burtynsky, a Canadian photographer and an absolutely wonderful artist. He said that in Canada, it is axiomatic that, if someone becomes a billionaire, they will become a massive philanthropist, set up a charity and give to a wide variety of different charities. That has not become the norm in the UK in the same way as it has in America, Canada and some other countries. There is still room for us to explore how we can incentivise that even more, so that it is part of our national psyche.

The second point is about companies. Several hon. Members have referred to the importance of companies being passionate about their local communities. They know that they derive their wealth from those communities, and if they want to incentivise their staff, they will want to play an important part in their local communities. Some companies have been financially strapped, because of energy costs and things like that. The more we can praise those companies that make a radical difference in their local communities, the better. Perhaps we need to think of new ways of badging and thanking them for the extraordinary things they have done.

My final point is about the role of the state in all this. At this particular moment in British politics, I sometimes feel quite depressed, because it feels as if so many parts of what we relied on in our past just do not work as well as they used to. Some people will say, “Let’s try to recreate the social fabric of the 1950s,” but I do not think that that works. The world has moved on: the internet, social media and so on have completely changed things. However, I do want to return to that sense of public engagement—the sense that we achieve far more by our common endeavour than we do by going it alone. I could make the party political point that, if we press the reset button in a general election, perhaps some of that will be achieved. But what is even more important—and politicians and the state play a role in this—is ensuring that the whole country feels engaged in the national project, and that the whole of the local community feels engaged in the local project. We cannot do that without people volunteering for the common good.