Draft Transparency of Donations and Loans etc. (Northern Ireland political parties) order 2018
Chloe Smith Excerpts(6 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Transparency of Donations and Loans etc. (Northern Ireland Political Parties) Order 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. The draft order will provide for the full publication of donations and loans received on or after 1 July 2017 by Northern Ireland political parties and other regulated donees or participants. The current regulatory framework provides for information on political donations and loans to Northern Ireland recipients above relevant thresholds to be reported to the Electoral Commission. However, the commission is forbidden by law from publishing that information except in very limited circumstances. Hon. Members will be aware that that contrasts with the position in the rest of the United Kingdom, where information on donations and loans to political parties is published quarterly.
Party funding regulations were introduced across the UK by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. At the outset, however, those arrangements did not apply to Northern Ireland, because the risk of intimidation of donors was a major concern at the time. The Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 extended the 2000 Act to Northern Ireland, with provisions in place to prohibit the publication of Northern Ireland political donations. The Electoral Administration Act 2006 made UK-wide provision for the reporting and publication of loans to political parties, similar to the provision already in place for donations. The Electoral Administration Act 2006 (Regulation of Loans etc: Northern Ireland) Order 2008—forgive me for all the long titles, Mr Hosie—extended the provisions of its parent Act to Northern Ireland, with modifications to prohibit the publication of details relating to loans made for political purposes. The donations and loans confidentiality provisions were always considered to be temporary. Public support for transparency has remained strong and consistent since the provisions have been in force.
The Government have made increasingly clear our desire for increased transparency with regard to Northern Ireland political donations and loans. In January, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State wrote to the Northern Ireland political parties to seek their views on moving to full transparency. For the first time, all the parties that responded agreed that the time was right to introduce transparency to Northern Ireland. He also asked the Northern Ireland parties for their views on the date from which transparency should take effect. Of the parties that responded, only the Alliance party suggested that publication should be backdated. The issue was further discussed in the political talks that followed the Assembly election in March. Again, there was consensus that transparency should be introduced, and again only the Alliance party suggested that publication of donations and loans should be backdated.
The Secretary of State subsequently announced to the House that the Government would bring forward secondary legislation to introduce transparency, and I am pleased to present this important legislation to the Committee. In the light of the responses received from the political parties in Northern Ireland about the date from which transparency should take effect, and to ensure consistency with the Electoral Commission’s quarterly reporting schedule, the draft order will provide for the publication of details relating to all donations and loans received on or after 1 July 2017.
Let me take the Committee through the draft order in detail. Although its primary objective is to provide for the publication of donations and loans in the way I have described, it also contains provisions to address a range of related issues, particularly in relation to the operation of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act. That Act provides for details of donations and loans received over the calendar year by a recipient from the same source to be published when their aggregate total exceeds the reporting threshold. Articles 2 and 3 of the draft order therefore provide for the publication of details about a donation or loan received before 1 July 2017 if it is aggregated with a donation or loan received on or after that date.
Hon. Members will be aware that the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 does not permit the draft order to make provision that would allow for any information on donations or loans made or entered into before 1 January 2014 to be published in a form in which it would be possible to identify the donor or lender.
Loans or donations may not be one-off events, and changes to a loan may be made over time. Certain changes to a loan—such as a change in value or rate, a change of repayment term, a change of parties or the loan coming to an end—must be reported to the Electoral Commission. Article 3 provides for reportable changes taking effect on or after 1 July 2017 to be published if the loan was entered into on or after 1 January 2014. The effect will be that a change to such a loan that takes effect on or after 1 July 2017 will result in the publication of all details relating to that loan, including from the pre-1 July 2017 period. However, the draft order provides that such publication will not take place if the change to the loan is simply the repayment of the whole of the debt, or all the remaining debt, under the loan.
The prohibition on commission officials disclosing information relating to Northern Ireland political donations and loans is supported by a criminal offence. That will remain the case for donations and loans received before 1 July 2017, unless the disclosure relates to aggregation or a reportable change to a loan, as provided for elsewhere in the draft order. Articles 2 and 3 further provide that the commission will not be acting contrary to the prohibition on disclosure if commission officials publish information relating to a donation or loan received after 1 January 2014 and before 1 July 2017, so long as the relevant donation or transaction report does not state that the donation or loan was received before 1 July 2017 and commission officials believe that it was received on or after 1 July 2017 and were reasonably entitled to hold that belief. I think that was the longest single sentence I have ever spoken in a Delegated Legislation Committee, Mr Hosie, but there may be more like it coming up.
Hon. Members may be aware that the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act permits donations and loans from certain Irish citizens and bodies to Northern Ireland recipients. Additional information must be provided in donation reports to the Electoral Commission in respect of those donors in order to confirm their identity. Article 5 provides that such information, which includes passports and statements of naturalisation, will not be published by the commission; clearly it would be inappropriate to publish such sensitive personal information. However, I assure the Committee that all other information that relates to Irish donations and loans received from 1 July onwards will be published in the normal way.
Articles 6, 7, 8 and 9 will require political parties and regulated donees or participants to provide dates on which donations or loans are received, particularly for those received before 1 July 2017. This will minimise the risk of pre-1 July 2017 donations and loans being published in error.
Articles 10 and 11 will ensure that the current verification steps undertaken by the commission to verify Northern Ireland donations and loans will continue to apply to Northern Ireland donations and loans received on or after 1 July 2017.
The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act provides for reports to the commission to be submitted and published at different times, depending on whether the recipient is a political party or a regulated donee or participant. Article 12 provides that the first publication of regulated donee information can take place only at the same time as, or after, political party information has been published.
I hope that the Committee has found that summary of the provisions helpful. As hon. Members know, the Electoral Commission will be responsible for implementing the arrangements set out in the draft order. The Government have fulfilled our statutory obligation to consult the commission about the draft order; I place on the record my thanks to the commission and its staff for their close co-operation and constructive input into the drafting process.
In summary, there remains widespread support among the people of Northern Ireland for full transparency. There has been a welcome recognition by the political parties of the importance of transparency to the broader political process.
While there is still much work to be done in re-establishing an Executive in Northern Ireland, I have no doubt that the order before us today is an important milestone that will strengthen confidence in and support for the democratic process in Northern Ireland more generally. For this reason, I hope that hon. Members will support the order.
Owen Smith
I will give way in a moment; the hon. Gentleman has made his intervention.
Chloe Smith
The right hon. Member for Exeter is precisely on the point. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State began this action in January. Can the hon. Member for Pontypridd explain why we have not received any further communication from the parties about changing their view, as he claims they have done? Did they not see that we were having a fully open process for the whole of 2017 in which they could have communicated that? They have not done that. I tell him that they have not. We have not received any such communication. There has been no change, and he is dancing on a pin.
Owen Smith
Let me read out to the Minister some of the responses that I have received from the political parties in Northern Ireland, and I will also read out the view of the Electoral Commission in Northern Ireland. I will start with the commission, as it is the only statutory consultee that the Government are meant to consult as a result of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014. It is profoundly disappointed that the Government have chosen not to backdate the donations to 2014, it welcomes the transparency that is going to be introduced prospectively—
Owen Smith
Not unlike the hon. Gentleman because those were my opening words to the Committee today, so the Minister really ought to listen. But the Electoral Commission is profoundly disappointed that the provision will not be retrospective, which is also my view. Ann Watt, the head of the Northern Ireland Electoral Commission, said:
“While all reportable donations and loans received from 1 July 2017 will now be published by the commission, we would also like to see the necessary legislation put in place, as soon as possible, to allow us to publish details of donations and loans received since January 2014.”
Her predecessor, Séamus Magee, who retired in 2014, said:
“The deal on party donations and loans must be part of the DUP/Conservative deal. No other explanation…Every party in Northern Ireland understood that the publication of political donations over £7,500 was to be retrospective to Jan 2014.”
I put it to the Minister that part of the reason that some of the political parties did not respond saying that they wanted it to be retrospective is that they naturally understood that that would be the case, given that that was what the legislation allowed for. When the Minister responds, I am sure she will tell us why she has arbitrarily picked the date of 1 July 2017. There is no reason that I can see, either in statute or in ministerial comments, for coming up with that date.
Let me read some of the views of the parties. Conor Murphy, a Member of the Legislative Assembly for Newry and Armagh, said on behalf of Sinn Féin:
“The British Government’s refusal to backdate new laws on political donations is aimed at covering-up so-called Brexit ‘dark money’ that was paid to the DUP”.
He also said:
“If the DUP and the British Government were serious about transparency in government then they would support the retrospective publication from January 2014 of all donations over the reportable threshold.”
Robin Swann, the leader of the Ulster Unionist party, has told me in writing today that his party would not oppose retrospective introduction of the legislation, and a similar view is now held by the Social Democratic and Labour party. In addition, the view of the Alliance party, which was clear back in January, was that it, too, wanted publication. The truth is that the views of the political parties in Northern Ireland and those of the Labour party have changed as a result of growing concern about the DUP donation.
Mr Bradshaw
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I hope the Minister will explain why the Government have changed their mind when she responds to the debate.
If the Government will not change their mind again, to their original position, and backdate transparency to 2014, I invite the Minister to publish the full details of this unprecedented £435,000 donation, regardless of the scope of the measure, so that the public interest and confidence in the referendum result can be protected. Will she also explain the reasons for the fine imposed by the Electoral Commission on the CRC, and exactly which law was broken? I would be amazed if she were not aware of that and did not know. It is her job as a Northern Ireland Minister to find out.
Chloe Smith
I am afraid I must stop the right hon. Gentleman on this line of argument now. I do not think he has been listening or has understood the gravity of the situation. There is a criminal offence prohibiting disclosure of details. I do not have those details; the Electoral Commission is not permitted to pass them to me. I cannot answer his question. He appears to be inciting me to do something very foolish that, even if it were not foolish, I cannot do. Perhaps he could improve the quality of his arguments.
Mr Bradshaw
The simple answer is to backdate this measure to 2014. The Minister would be able to do whatever she likes then and we would have full transparency, which she claims she wants.
Will the Minister also explain why she is ignoring the representations of the Electoral Commission, of civil society in Northern Ireland and of all the political parties except the DUP? Has she satisfied herself that the donation to the DUP for the Brexit campaign was from a permissible donor, and has she satisfied herself that it was legally sourced? I am not asking to her publish it without the order, but has she satisfied herself of that?
Mr Bradshaw
It is her job. If not, what is she doing about it? [Interruption.] The Minister should listen to me. Has she asked the relevant ministerial colleagues to satisfy themselves of that, and has she asked them to investigate the allegations of illegal collusion involving the DUP, Vote Leave, Leave.EU, BeLeave, Labour Leave and Veterans for Britain? [Interruption.]
Mr Bradshaw
It is not a laughing matter; it is a very serious issue about public political transparency, honesty and tackling corruption.
Chloe Smith
For the sake of the record, I repeat that I cannot do the things that the right hon. Gentleman is asking of me, and nor can other Ministers. We do not have access to that information by matter of law. It is a criminal offence to share the details he is asking for. It is not a matter for jollity in the Committee that he is asking frankly asinine questions about something that I cannot do.
Mr Bradshaw
The Minister is telling us that she is a helpless victim in this whole affair. There is nothing to prevent her from writing to the Electoral Commission, asking it to investigate the matters that I have just asked to have investigate. We have done it, and other people have done it too. What is stopping her? She is hiding behind secrecy to protect the true source of the donation, and it is totally unacceptable.
If she cannot answer these questions satisfactorily, the only conclusion that anyone can draw is that the Government’s sole priority is to protect their deal with the DUP, rather than honour the letter and the spirit of the legislation, and do what is right and in the public interest. I hope the Committee rejects this shabby little order.
Chloe Smith
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset for his comments and support. I will deal with a few of the remarks made in the debate and then, in wrapping up, I will emphasise why the Committee should vote for this order.
In chronological order, I will begin with the arguments of the hon. Member for Pontypridd. Frankly, I find it amazing that he is opposing transparency. He will no doubt say that his first words were to support transparency, but his second words were to say that he would vote against it. That is a shabby state of affairs. Our words should echo our deeds. The Government are committed to transparency, which is why we have introduced this order; the parties are committed to transparency; the public are committed to transparency; and the Electoral Commission is committed to transparency. He cannot bring himself to vote for it. He is not committed to transparency.
Chloe Smith
Yes, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will say that he is committed to transparency.
Owen Smith
I am, as I said at the beginning of my remarks. I hope the Minister will explain to the Committee why she is not in favour of transparency in line with the original legislation that her Government passed in 2014. That offered more transparency than is currently on offer—Labour wants more transparency, not less. All she needs to do is tell the Committee that she will take this measure away, rethink it in the light of changed views in Northern Ireland and in this House, and adopt what was originally intended by her Government, backdated to 2014.
Chloe Smith
That was a lovely long intervention, so that is the hon. Gentleman’s lot—I will not take another one from him. I will explain exactly those points.
I remind the House that the Conservative manifesto for the 2017 election in Northern Ireland pledged to increase transparency. We are delivering on that. The Labour party is choosing not to. That is amazing.
We wrote to the parties in January. This year, Northern Ireland parties have engaged in two elections and in sustained political talks, so to offer the position in January, to seek views and then to take action from July is a reasonable approach. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already explained that he thinks that it is not right or fair to impose retrospective regulations or conditions on people who donated in good faith with the rules as they were set at the time.
Ian Paisley
Will the Minister confirm that this vote is take it or leave it—that if the Government lose, there will be no publication?
Chloe Smith
Indeed, that is the case. If Members were to vote against tonight’s order, they would vote against transparency. It is as simple as that. That is what we are dealing with here. Let us not forget what we have been through to get here.
Jess Phillips
I would like to remind the Minister, when she uses words such as that we are “voting against transparency”, of how words matter. Actually, I ask the Minister to think about how people get treated because of the poor words used by people in this building, or used to represent people in this building, in newspapers. I ask to her to consider what seems like a total pantomime: saying that asking for more transparency is to vote against transparency. The Minister is probably a bit better than that.
Chloe Smith
I have great respect for the hon. Lady and I have great and serious respect for her tone of voice. However, she has deployed it unnecessarily twice in this Committee. She is trying to say something that her vote will not say. She needs to hear her own advice. She needs to take her own point: that words and actions matter. In fact, I think that actions probably matter the most, which is why Conservative Members will vote for the order.
Chloe Smith
I am afraid that I will not take an intervention from the Opposition Whip. I need to move on and respond to some of the arguments that have been made.
As I mentioned briefly, there has been a history of intimidation in this particular context. Confidentiality has been important up to this point. I find it astounding that the Opposition are playing fast and loose—words that have already been used in this Committee—perhaps with that delicate history, I do not know, but certainly fast and loose with the sensitivity of this time, when we need to get politicians back around the table. This is not about playing politics; this should be about getting on with something that has been important to Parliament. I am afraid to say that the party of the hon. Member for Pontypridd is inconsistent, rather incoherent and perhaps even incredible.
Mr Clarke
We are dancing on the head of a pin. I feel that the argument has been driven by motives other than those on the face of the order. The speech by the right hon. Member for Exeter goes to the point on that. It is about trying in some way to stop or to undermine Brexit rather than being about the real sensitivities and the political history of the most troubled part of our country. Does the Minister agree that the tone that has been struck is almost wholly unhelpful?
Chloe Smith
I agree with my hon. Friend and I think that it is rather a shame that we have had to have this discussion. Let us take the point of Brexit: in the time that we have been working hard to deliver transparency, since January 2014, the hon. Member for Pontypridd and his party have taken seven different positions on Brexit alone. We need to do a little better than that.
Chloe Smith
I am just about to come to the hon. Lady’s comments—I thought she might like it if I did that. She said that the 2014 Act obliged us to publish from then, but I am afraid that it does not. It is an option and not a requirement under that 2014 legislation. She is also of the view that we should not leave anything in the dark, that we should not delay and that we should not set yet another date. Again, why is she is voting against today’s transparency? It is a very unwise thing to do. It would leave donations now in the dark. It would leave us without a date and with no transparency.
Deidre Brock
Will the Minister explain why MLAs currently declare their donations on their register of interests on the Northern Ireland Assembly website? She is attempting to block publication of donations, which all parties accept is likely to happen, as she has generally recognised since at least 1 January 2014.
Chloe Smith
I will put this quite bluntly: the Government propose transparency; those who vote against the order are reducing the amount of transparency that will stand on the statute. That is the fact.
Chloe Smith
No, I will not.
Let me deal with the point from the right hon. Member for Exeter. As I said when I intervened on him, I cannot confirm any of his questions; I explained why, and he should know why. He still seems to want me, for example, to have written to the Electoral Commission, and to have asked it to commit an offence by replying to such a letter. He says he has done so; I really hope he has not, because to do so before passing a draft order such as this is to incite the commission to commit a criminal offence. That would be very unwise indeed.
Mr Bradshaw
On a point of order, Mr Hosie. The Minister is specifically referring to something I said in my speech. Would it not be courteous of her, in your view, to give way on that specific point?
Chloe Smith
If the right hon. Gentleman can do better than he did the first time, I will be happy to hear it.
Mr Bradshaw
Why is the Minister ignoring the advice of the Electoral Commission on this matter?
Chloe Smith
The right hon. Gentleman allows me to move on to my next, rather important point.
Chloe Smith
The answer is that we are a responsible Government who are introducing the draft order on transparency, and while we have no intention of providing for the publication of pre-2017 donations, we intend to work with the Electoral Commission to review the operation of the broader framework for donations and loans in Northern Ireland when these transparency arrangements have bedded in. That is rather important, because it reminds us that what we have today is the beginning of obtaining an important amount of data; from today, we will be able to better see the full situation.
On that, I turn briefly to the comments from the hon. Member for East Antrim, although he is not a voting member of the Committee. I welcome his affirmation that parties wants to move to full transparency. He also reminded us that only one party proposed backdating, and I reiterate that we have not received any communications from parties indicating that their positions have changed since January.
I also say to the hon. Gentleman that I understand his argument regarding Irish donations. The draft order will provide transparency and will be the beginning of our having some valuable data. When that transparency has bedded in and there is a fuller understanding of how Northern Irish parties are funded, my officials and I intend to work with the Electoral Commission to look at other aspects of the operation of the donation and loan systems in Northern Ireland, to review whether there might be a case for further reforms.
The Government welcome the Electoral Commission’s support for the draft order. We think we should get on with it; to delay will lead to even greater secrecy. Those Members who vote against the draft order are voting to delay transparency and to avoid the normalisation of Northern Ireland’s politics, and they are voting against the ability of anybody to hold politicians to account. Funnily enough, we are talking today about the standards of politicians and the clarity of our conduct. Our votes should mirror our views. If we believe in having transparency henceforth, let us vote for it.
Question put.
Universal Credit: Northern Ireland Implementation
Chloe Smith Excerpts(7 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
In the light of recent questions in the House, I wish to set out the policy and respective responsibilities regarding the non-consensual conception exception to the policy to provide additional support in child tax credit and universal credit, and its interaction with Northern Ireland criminal law.
There has been particular focus on Section 5 of the Criminal Law Act (Nl) 1967. This provides that where a relevant offence has been committed, it shall be the duty of every other person who knows or believes that the offence has been committed and that has information which is likely to secure, or to be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person for that offence, to give the information, otherwise they shall be guilty of an offence, unless they have a reasonable excuse. This provision is not new, nor has it been affected in any way by the implementation of universal credit in Northern Ireland. Its implications for those who are victims of crime, including rape, date back to 1967. And as criminal law is a devolved matter, the UK Government have no role in determining the appropriateness of this particular provision, nor in proposing any amendment to it. What is more, we understand that there has not been a single prosecution of a victim of rape under section 5 of the 1967 Act in 50 years. That means that there is no recorded case where it has been considered that those limbs of the prosecutorial test have been met since 1967.
As to the non-consensual conception exception more broadly, it is an important part of the two-child limit policy. It is in place to protect those who are not always able to make choices about the number of children in their family. But given its complex and sensitive nature, great care is taken in its application right across the United Kingdom. We have worked with the Department for Communities, given that the administration of universal credit is a devolved matter, to ensure the same is true in Northern Ireland.
In particular, the legal position is made very clear on the forms and guidance for child tax credits and universal credit, so that both the claimant and the third party professional are clear before any disclosure is made:
“Please be aware, that in Northern Ireland, if the third party knows or believes that a relevant offence (such as rape) has been committed, the third party will normally have a duty to inform the police of any information that is likely to secure, or to be of material assistance in securing, the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of someone for that offence”.
In addition, claimants applying for this exception will be told that they do not have to tell the third party professional the name of the child’s other biological parent. Nor is there a requirement on the approved third party professional to seek any further evidence to confirm the circumstances around the conception of the child beyond what the claimant has described to them. The role of a third party professional will simply be to confirm, by ticking boxes on a form, that the claimant has made a declaration to them which is consistent with the criteria for the non-consensual conception exception in relation to their child. No officials of either the UK Government or the Northern Ireland Civil Service will question a claimant about an incident. You can find details of the guidance and the forms online (https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/form-ncc1niis-support-child-conceived-without-your-consent).
Taken as a whole, therefore, the implementation of universal credit in Northern Ireland has been undertaken in a way that reflects the interests of claimants on the one hand, and the interests of those taxpayers who support themselves solely through work on the other. Ultimately, however, given the devolution settlement, the questions raised are properly for a restored Northern Ireland Executive.
[HCWS259]
Oral Answers to Questions
Chloe Smith Excerpts(7 years ago)
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Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The economy in Northern Ireland continues to grow, with 42,000 more people in work now than in 2010, and with inward investment playing an important part in that success. As we develop our new trade relationships and expand our global trade networks, we will continue to promote Northern Ireland as a place to invest and do business.
Amanda Milling
I thank my hon. Friend for her reply. Will she confirm that the Government remain committed to devolving corporation tax powers to the Executive in order to help Northern Ireland to better compete with Ireland for investment and jobs, but if that is to happen, we need a fully functioning Executive with sustainable finances?
Chloe Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Our imperative is to see a restored and fully functioning Executive so that they can take such steps to support the economy, along with the many other important things on their to-do list.
Robert Courts
Will my hon. Friend confirm that Northern Ireland remains one of the most attractive parts of the UK in which to invest, and that the key to that continuing will be working with a restored Executive to ensure that Northern Ireland benefits from our modern industrial strategy?
Chloe Smith
Again, this is precisely the point in front of us. Northern Ireland has already proved itself to be a top destination for inward investment. In the last year alone, it welcomed 22 new investors, who have brought in 34 new foreign direct investment projects and more than 1,600 new jobs, but to take that further, we need an Executive in place.
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
On devolution, the political parties collectively agreed in 2007 to throw their weight behind the important work of growing Northern Ireland’s economy, achieving particular success in foreign direct investment. In the absence of devolved Ministers due to Sinn Féin’s continued refusal to get back into government and deliver for the people of Northern Ireland, will the Minister outline how she will assist Invest NI?
Chloe Smith
The hon. Lady draws us into some of the themes that we went over at some length on Monday night. This Government are prepared to do everything necessary to support the good governance of Northern Ireland, but our first priority is to see the Executive restored, so that they can play their part in the economic development that we all want for her city, for the rest of Northern Ireland, and for the good of the entire United Kingdom as we face the large task of exiting the EU.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Will the Minister ensure that the Government’s efforts to bring about inward investment are focused on the whole of Northern Ireland, including great places such as Newry, Omagh and Derry/Londonderry?
Chloe Smith
Yes. I was in Newry last week, speaking to an audience of teenagers about the future that they want for Northern Ireland, which is extremely important. We need to look across the whole area and to be sure that we are working for all people of Northern Ireland, as we do for all people of the United Kingdom.
Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
This Government are committed to building an economy that works for everyone. The Government’s industrial strategy is a vital part of the plan to drive growth across the country. It will offer opportunities that strengthen productivity, support innovation and create jobs in Northern Ireland. Ultimately, though, the requirement for strong growth is political stability, so I say again that we seek a restored Executive.
Andrew Lewer
The UK Government have pledged to fund the EU’s PEACE IV and Interreg programmes up to 2020. Interreg already has strong third-party country participation, including with Norway, Greenland, Iceland and the Faroes in the Northern Periphery and Arctic programme. Will the UK seek third-country status after Brexit, or after 2020, given Northern Ireland’s strong involvement in Interreg, or are the Government working on a new programme to replace it after 2020?
Chloe Smith
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I am more than happy to write to him with the detail but, in brief, the Government will guarantee funding for structural and investment fund projects until the point when we leave the EU. We have spoken specifically about the European Territorial Co-operation fund, of which PEACE and Interreg are a part. We have put more detail in our position paper on Ireland and Northern Ireland, and it is important to endeavour to see those funds continue.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does the Minister agree that too many people are concentrating on the potential threats that may emerge post-Brexit? What is she doing to try to promote businesses in Northern Ireland, which have a fantastic opportunity to take advantage of getting business in GB as well as the EU, strategically placed as they are in Northern Ireland?
Chloe Smith
There are a few things to say about the hon. Gentleman’s important point. First, we ought to pay tribute to the businesses in Northern Ireland that have created so many thousands of jobs. More than 10,000 new jobs have been created in the past year alone, which is important progress. Secondly, this Government will never be neutral on the subject of the Union, and people will see our support for the trade that needs to go between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Thirdly, our exit from the European Union provides an additional opportunity for firms in Northern Ireland to trade around the globe, which is something to be seized.
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)
Chloe Smith
Yes, I certainly can. We are convinced of the need to go out and seek opportunities around the globe that will bring more jobs to Northern Ireland, and greater prosperity to both Northern Ireland and the whole United Kingdom, because we are stronger together.
Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The fundamentals of the Northern Ireland economy remain strong, with growth last year at 1.6%. Economic activity is up, exports have risen, unemployment has fallen to levels not seen since before Labour’s recession of 2008, and 42,000 more people are in work compared with 2010.
Rehman Chishti
Will the Minister confirm that the unemployment rate in Northern Ireland today is 4.7%—down from 7% under the Labour party—and that any return to the high-tax, out-of-control spending and record deficit of the Labour years would have a disastrous impact on Northern Ireland’s economy?
Chloe Smith
I certainly can. Under this Conservative Government, unemployment is at its lowest level in four decades. Labour would put all that at risk. We want to continue seeing the creation of more than 1,000 jobs a day. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is excessive noise in the Chamber. We are discussing matters of very great importance to the people of Northern Ireland, and they should be treated with respect, as should the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), who is about to ask her question.
Vicky Ford
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Does the Minister agree that although the recent performance of the Northern Ireland economy is strong—thanks, in large part, to the policies of this Conservative Government—the sparkling gem of our country that is Northern Ireland still has the potential to do better? Does he agree that that would be boosted by the restoration of an Executive with local Ministers taking local decisions?
Chloe Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She knows the region well and she will be aware that tourism numbers for the first six months of 2017 hit a record high, and that Belfast and the causeway coast is rated by Lonely Planet as the best region in the world to visit in the coming year. To continue that progress, we need to add political stability to the mix so that economic development can continue to be supported.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Minister will know that some good results for the Northern Ireland economy have come out this morning. Does she agree that the Democratic Unionist party has negotiated a fantastic deal with the Tory party that will help to create jobs in Northern Ireland and strengthen the economy in the future?
Chloe Smith
Everybody in this House ought to celebrate the further economic progress in Northern Ireland and there being a strong Government who can deliver that and support economic progress for the whole United Kingdom.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Mr Speaker
Extraordinary behaviour! The right hon. Gentleman is a distinguished former Northern Ireland Minister; he is entitled to be heard with courtesy, at the very least by Members on his own Benches.
Chloe Smith
The right hon. Gentleman raises important points that were debated at length in the Chamber on Monday night. The point is that we wish for political progress to be seen through the formation of an Executive, in which case accountability would be extremely clear. In the interim period, the House put in place measures on Monday to allow the Northern Ireland civil service to continue to spend as is required by the population of Northern Ireland, and it is under a duty to do so fairly and equally between communities.
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
I know from previous questions that the hon. Lady has asked that she is concerned about particular circumstances that could apply to claimants in Northern Ireland. The Department for Work and Pensions and Northern Ireland’s Department for Communities have worked closely together to enable the exemption for non-consensual conception to be applied sensitively. As I said to the hon. Lady in July, the guidance states that women who apply for this exception do not have to tell a third party the name of the other biological parent, and neither is there a requirement on the third party to seek any further evidence beyond confirming that the exception should apply.
Alison Thewliss
I have been pursuing this issue for more than two years now and that answer is simply not good enough. When I visited Belfast recently, the Women’s Aid Federation Northern Ireland, doctors, nurses, midwives and social workers all expressed their serious concerns about the implications of this policy for women fleeing domestic violence, who could be prosecuted under the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967. Will the Minister act now, speak into the Prime Minister’s ear and ask for this policy to be scrapped once and for all?
Chloe Smith
No, I will not. The hon. Lady may think that the answer is not good enough, but it has the merit of being true.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Will the Minister simply confirm whether women rape victims in Northern Ireland will be at risk of potential prosecution as a result of these measures—yes or no?
Owen Smith
The Minister and indeed the Prime Minister need to reflect on that answer, because I have a letter here from Barra McCrory, the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland, who said, in answer to my question on this very issue:
“It is, however, a potential offence to withhold information regarding an act of rape. The legislation does not distinguish between a victim and third parties to whom a disclosure is made; each is potentially liable to prosecution.”
How on earth can the Government countenance making women in Northern Ireland who are subject to rape imprisonable under the law? How can she accept that?
Chloe Smith
The fact is that we are not doing so. As I said to the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), there is clear guidance on the form that makes the legal position very clear, and we have sensitively handled that as an exception for precisely those reasons.
Northern Ireland Budget Bill
Chloe Smith ExcerptsMonday 13th November 2017
(7 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland Budget Act 2017 View all Northern Ireland Budget Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
I thank the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) for his sober words, and for his party’s support for the Bill. I also thank the Scottish National party for its support.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds), my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Alan Mak), the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly), the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) for their contributions. I thank the House for its support in general for this necessary although regrettable step that will keep public services running in Northern Ireland in the continued absence of a devolved Government.
I do not think that anyone in the House has welcomed the fact that the UK Parliament is debating the Northern Ireland budget. This step has been held off for as long as possible to allow a Northern Ireland Executive to bring forward its own budget in the usual way. However, the point at which that was possible has passed and no Executive have been formed so, in those circumstances, the step we propose today is the only appropriate and right one.
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, the Bill provides certainty and a measure of financial stability. By providing a full budget for this financial year, it ensures that civil servants—we owe them our thanks for working so hard to administer public services in the absence of Ministers—do not have to tackle the kind of cliff edge we might otherwise have faced. Although this is a Government Bill, it is not the Government’s budget. It is based entirely on the advice of Northern Ireland civil servants, and the decisions that follow will remain for them to take.
Several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire, the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, asked why there was not more notice of our proposals. I would only repeat that we have tried as hard as possible to provide as much space as possible for a different course. We sought to allow the space for an Executive-formation Bill to be brought forward instead, and we then endeavoured to inform right hon. and hon. Members as much as possible about the detail of what we faced, albeit during a truncated period of time.
A number of hon. Members asked about the detail in the Bill. I emphasise that the decisions taken through the Bill remain a devolved matter. I will not go into the detail of the allocations, but I will respond to a few specific questions. The Chair of the Select Committee asked about the method by which the budget allocations have been set. To put it briefly, the House addresses the 2017-18 financial year through the Northern Ireland main estimates, which have been published today. The Northern Ireland Department of Finance prepared the estimates and made them available to hon. Members. They provide the line-by-line detail of how that civil service has allocated resources for this year. Further explanation has been made available to Members through additional briefing from the Northern Ireland Department of Finance.
I would make a further brief point in response to the hon. Member for East Antrim, who asked why there might be particular increases for the Department of Finance and the Executive Office. I emphasise again that those are matters for the devolved government to answer, but the hon. Gentleman will know, given his experience, that some of the figures are essentially transfers from one line item to another. He can address that further when he looks through the full detail of the estimates.
As we are delivering a budget on behalf of the Northern Ireland Assembly, some hon. Members have, of course, talked about accountability. We recognise that the situation is highly unusual, but that was why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State outlined a proportionate approach to accountability, which we have put in place. I particularly welcomed the endorsement of that approach by the Chair of the Select Committee, and I trust that hon. Members can look to it in the immediate next steps.
I echo my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s emphasis on the Government’s commitment to the restoration of devolved government. The debate reminds us that we need an Executive.
Conor McGinn
There has been little or no discord tonight about the desire of all of us to see devolution restored. What is the Government’s plan for allowing that to happen? The Bill will pass tonight, but what will the Minister do tomorrow with the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister, the Irish Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland? Whatever has been done in the past 11 months has not worked, so something needs to change if the Assembly and the Executive are to be restored.
Chloe Smith
We have spent significant time on the future of devolution and what the next steps should be. That might have happened during our consideration of a technical budget Bill, but the House has discussed those matters tonight. The Government will continue to support the Northern Ireland political parties, working with the Irish Government as well, so that we move towards resolving the differences that have stopped an agreement from being reached. We are steadfast in that and in our commitment to the Belfast agreement. We will work tirelessly on that process from tomorrow morning.
Vernon Coaker
The debate has been good; there is general good will across the House towards Northern Ireland. The House will rightly support the budget proposals, but there is an impasse at the moment. No matter whose fault that is, a number of us want the Government to take concrete steps to support the restoration of the Executive and the Assembly. This is about not just rhetoric or wishful thinking, but concrete steps that will give us a chance of believing that the matter can be resolved.
Chloe Smith
I am grateful for that intervention. Several options remain under close consideration. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will continue his work with the kind of patience for which he has been roundly praised in the Chamber. Such work must continue. The Prime Minister will continue to give the process her wholehearted support and active attention. I will not go into further detail on the avenue down which the hon. Gentleman is trying to draw me, because our consideration of the Bill is not the appropriate vehicle for that. [Interruption.] Instead, we must pass this budget Bill and, with your support, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will conclude my remarks to allow us to do that.
The Bill is a necessary intervention in devolved matters, but it does not preclude the continuation of the talks. Indeed, it leaves spending decisions in the devolved space for a returning Executive to take, should the parties reach an agreement, which is what we all wish them to do. While leaving the decisions at a devolved level, the Bill none the less gives Northern Ireland Departments and other public bodies reassurance about their funding for the rest of the financial year. The people of Northern Ireland need that for their public services, and, as such, I propose that the Bill is read a Second time.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).
Bill considered in Committee (Order, this day).
[Dame Rosie Winterton in the Chair]
Clauses 1 to 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill reported, without amendment.
Bill read the Third time and passed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Chloe Smith Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con)
3. What recent discussions he has had with the Irish Government on cross-border security.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The UK Government have regular discussions with the Irish Government on a range of issues, including cross-border security. We work closely together to tackle security challenges and keep people on both sides of the border safe.
Chris Philp
Does my hon. Friend agree that, as we leave the European Union, close co-operation with the Government of Ireland on security will be extremely important? Can she assure the House that that will be a top priority in the coming negotiations?
Chloe Smith
Yes—in short, I certainly can. Co-operation with the Irish authorities is already strong. We wish to see that continue. If I may, I will take this opportunity to commend the security services and police on both sides of the border for all that they do to keep individuals safe.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Minister will be aware of the security assessment that the New IRA represents a very real and present threat to security. What discussions have the Government had with their Irish counterparts about that organisation?
Chloe Smith
Obviously, it is not possible to comment on specific assessments and security matters at this moment, but as I said in my previous response, co-operation is very strong across all security matters. We wish to see it continue that way in order to keep people on both sides of the border safe not only from the scourge of terrorism, but from cross-border crime where that is relevant, too.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for her response and I am sure she will join my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and me in welcoming Adrian O’Neill, Ireland’s newly appointed ambassador, to London. Will she also speak to Dublin about how it, as a co-guarantor of the Good Friday agreement, can assist in moving the peace process forward? I very much welcome the spirit of her words.
Chloe Smith
There has been close co-operation with the Irish Government every step of the way in seeking to re-establish the devolved Government, which is a common and shared priority. As the hon. Gentleman has said, that spirit is shared not only by Members on both sides of the House, but by the Governments. I am clear, however, that the UK Government have the specific responsibility of delivering public services and good governance in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. We act consistently in accordance with our obligations under the Belfast agreement and we are not looking for any principle that might be inconsistent with that agreement.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
4. What discussions he has had with the Taoiseach on maintaining the common travel area after the UK leaves the EU.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
5. Whether the Government have plans to establish a Northern Ireland powerhouse; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
This Government fully support business groups and civic leaders collaborating across boundaries to grow local economies. We are committed to doing our part to build prosperity right across the United Kingdom. For example, in Northern Ireland our UK industrial strategy will support business growth, employment and innovation, and boost levels of trade and investment.
Chi Onwurah
The north-east has been part of the northern powerhouse brand for some years now without succeeding in obtaining any significant investment. The Democratic Unionist Party on the other hand seems to have managed the opposite trick of receiving £1 billion of investment without any scrutiny, oversight or branding —or at least not one that it would be orderly of me to cite. Does the Minister agree with me that it is far better to have the money without the branding than the branding without the money?
Chloe Smith
I would hope that those on both sides of the House would agree that in every part of the United Kingdom we need to see jobs growth, the growth of key industries and people living a secure and prosperous life. I am pleased to note that this morning it was announced that the Northern Ireland unemployment rate for the May to July quarter of this year has decreased again. I hope that the hon. Lady would welcome that kind of growth. I also hope that she would turn her attention to what she could do to support the economy in her own constituency. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are plenty of private conversations taking place in the Chamber, but I am very keen to hear the thoughts of Mr David Simpson.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am sure the Minister agrees with me that when Northern Ireland achieves the status of 12.5% corporation tax, along and combined with our industrial strategy, our skills base and productivity, we would be ripe for a powerhouse initiative.
Chloe Smith
There are two things to say. First, we would like to see additional economic co-operation within Northern Ireland—namely, the possibility of there being city deals. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman’s comments about corporation tax clearly remind us that we need to work towards the restoration of an Executive who can take such decisions for the good of the people of Northern Ireland.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
6. What steps he is taking to ensure good governance and political stability in Northern Ireland.
Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con)
14. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The threat from Northern Ireland-related terrorism continues to be severe in Northern Ireland, meaning that an attack is highly likely. Our response to terrorism and paramilitary activity is co-ordinated, effective and fully resourced. This Government remain fully committed to keeping people safe and secure and ensuring that terrorism never succeeds.
Sir Henry Bellingham
As part of the security review, will the Minister look at the case of Dennis Hutchings and other veterans, who have been hounded and charged in respect of alleged shootings nearly 50 years ago? There is no new evidence, so surely the time has come to restore humanity and natural justice, and bring in some form of time limitation.
Chloe Smith
The Government will always give their fullest possible backing to those brave men and women who have done, and continue to do, an outstanding job serving the community. As part of our work to implement the Stormont House agreement, the legacy institutions will be under a duty to behave in a manner that is balanced, proportionate and fair. We also have the aim of taking cases in chronological order. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
I understand the sense of anticipation, but I remind the House that we are discussing the security situation in Northern Ireland. Out of respect for the people of Northern Ireland it would be good if there were some attention to the questions and answers.
Chloe Smith
Yes, I certainly do. I send the Government’s thanks and support to every member of the security services and the police force who keeps people safe in Northern Ireland and here.
Chloe Smith
This Government have committed £25 million of funding to support the Northern Ireland Executive’s tackling paramilitarism programme. However, I return to the point that this reminds us why we need an Executive back up and running to keep people safe, on this most acute of issues.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The Minister must be absolutely appalled by the report from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on the response by the Government to Libyan Semtex being used to murder people in Northern Ireland and here in GB. Will she commit to meet my colleagues and me to discuss this report and get a fresh start on dealing with this crucial issue?
Chloe Smith
More broadly, this is a matter being taken forward by the Foreign Office, but I would be happy to meet, or indeed to arrange a meeting, with members of the Government to discuss the issues in more detail.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
Can the Minister tell us what steps the Government are taking to try to reassure communities that it is safe for them to come forward and work with the police? Surely working with communities is one of the best ways to improve the security situation in the whole of Northern Ireland.
Chloe Smith
Yes, is the principal answer. It is crucial that people have the confidence to come forward to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, to ensure a safe and prosperous future for all parts of the community.
Criminal Law (Northern Ireland)
Chloe Smith Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
I beg to move,
That the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017, which was laid before this House on 22 June, be approved.
Under this order, trials without a jury can take place in Northern Ireland for a further two years from 1 August 2017; the current provisions expire on 31 July. Although this is the fifth such extension of these provisions, I hope to leave Members in no doubt as to the continued necessity for the provisions for a further two years.
May I take this opportunity to welcome Madam Deputy Speaker—Dame Rosie Winterton—to her place? This is the first time I have had the chance to do so from this Dispatch Box. I am sure we will all enjoy serving under her chairmanship this afternoon.
Hon. Members will be aware of the lethal threat posed by terrorists in Northern Ireland. Dissident republican terrorist groups continue to plan and mount attacks, with the principal aim of killing or maiming those who serve the public in all communities so bravely. Police officers, prison officers and members of the armed forces are the main focus of these attacks, but the terrorists’ continued use of explosive devices and other weaponry continues to cause death and injury. Individuals linked to paramilitary organisations also continue to undermine peace and the rule of law in Northern Ireland through the use of violence and intimidation, in both republican and loyalist communities. I want to assure hon. Members that the Government wish to end the exceptional system of non-jury trials as soon as it is no longer necessary. But that should happen only when the circumstances allow, otherwise we risk allowing violence and intimidation to undermine the criminal justice process in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am delighted to see you in the Chair for the first time, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to welcome the new Minister to the Dispatch Box to debate this important legislation. It would be helpful to the House if she were to indicate the types of trials that have involved the individuals who have gone through this non-jury procedure in the recent past. Have they involved loyalist paramilitaries, republican paramilitaries or predominantly one or the other? It would be helpful if she told us that.
Chloe Smith
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. Initially, I want to set out the conditions under which such a trial can be granted, as that will begin to help to answer her question. I shall also come on to discuss the numbers of such trials. As she will appreciate, I will not be able to comment on any live cases or give her every single detail she asks for, but I will endeavour to give the House a strong sense of what these trials are used for.
Lady Hermon
Obviously, I am not asking the Minister to comment on ongoing cases, but this procedure of non-jury trials has been exceptional to Northern Ireland. I fully understand and support them in the context of continued paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. However, what she needs to explain to the community and to the House is that this is not a one-sided process and that those who have been through it, whether convicted or acquitted, come from both loyalist and republican paramilitary groups. It would be helpful if she would do that.
Chloe Smith
The simplest short answer is yes, it is absolutely the case that the provisions we are discussing have and will apply across communities. There is no doubt about that.
If the House will allow me to continue with my opening remarks, I will try to answer everything else during the course of the debate. The Government wish to end the non-jury trial system because it is exceptional, and we wish to do so as soon as the circumstances allow. Although many attempts to visit violence and intimidation and undermine the criminal justice process have been disrupted, the security situation today remains much the same as it was in 2015, when the House last considered these measures. The threat from terrorism in Northern Ireland is assessed as severe. This year alone, there have been four national security attacks in Northern Ireland, including the wounding of a police officer who was serving the community. It would be remiss of the Government to dispose of the provisions now, given that threat and its potential impact on the delivery of criminal justice for all communities in Northern Ireland. It would be a weak argument to suggest that we should move on from the provisions because we have had them for a long time.
In the past two years, attacks by dissident republicans and loyalist paramilitaries have put countless innocent lives in danger. Members may be aware of the incident on the Crumlin Road in Belfast in January, when two police officers who were serving their community came under attack from dissident republicans, leaving one officer badly injured. The forecourt of a busy filling station was sprayed with automatic gunfire, demonstrating the utter disregard these groups show for human life and the harm that they pose to ordinary members of the public. Sadly, this despicable attack was not an isolated incident: there were four confirmed national security attacks in 2016 and there have been four so far this year. That underlines the persistence of the threat that we face.
The presence of dissident republicans and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland means that violence and intimidation remain concerns for the wider community. Figures released by the Police Service of Northern Ireland show an increased number of security-related deaths over the past three years, as well as an increasing trend in the number of paramilitary-style assaults since 2012-13. Threats towards the police and public bodies also demonstrate the continued attempts at the intimidation of individuals and communities in Northern Ireland. In 2016-17, there were 137 arrests and 19 charges related to terrorism. I pay tribute to the work of the PSNI and its partners, because it is having an impact on the threat, but the security situation remains serious.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
May I speak from personal experience? In some court cases there is huge intimidation of witnesses from the public gallery, which it is very difficult to control. I have to say, I was frightened.
Chloe Smith
I welcome my hon. and gallant Friend’s experience being brought to bear on this debate. He is right. I was just about to talk about the circumstances in which non-jury trials are appropriate, and will come on to that very point about the intimidation of those involved in the justice process. He will also be aware of some other jury reforms that have been implemented administratively; I hope to see them succeed.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
With the information she has outlined, the Minister is making the case for the system’s renewal very well. Does she agree that it is essential for all sections of the community in Northern Ireland to support the security forces and the work that they do?
Chloe Smith
Yes, I do. We are talking about a threat that goes across all communities and the wider public, and I hope I have begun to make that clear.
I shall explain the precise ways in which justice is threatened and what the measures before us are for. Non-jury trial provisions are available in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland, when a risk to the administration of justice is suspected—for example, jury tampering, whereby intimidation, violence or the threat of violence against members of a jury could result in a perverse conviction or acquittal.
The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland may issue a certificate that allows a non-jury trial to be held in relation to any trial on indictment of a defendant, and anyone tried with that defendant, if it meets a defined test that falls within one of four conditions: first, if the defendant is, or is an associate of, a member of a proscribed organisation whose activities are connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland, or has at any time been a member of an organisation when it was a proscribed organisation; secondly, if the offence was committed on behalf of a proscribed organisation, or a proscribed organisation was involved with or assisted in the carrying out of the offence; thirdly, if an attempt was made to prejudice the investigation or prosecution, by or on behalf of a proscribed organisation, or a proscribed organisation was otherwise involved with or assisted in that attempt; or, fourthly, if the offence was committed to any extent, directly or indirectly, as a result of, in connection with or in response to, religious or political hostility.
A case that falls within one of the four conditions will not automatically be tried without a jury, because the DPP must also be satisfied that there is a risk that the administration of justice might be impaired were a jury trial to be held. For those with a historical view, I should be clear that this is not a Diplock system—this is not the system that pertained before 2007. There is a clear distinction between the current system and the pre-2007 Diplock court arrangements, under which there was a presumption that all scheduled offences were tried by a judge alone. In Northern Ireland today, there is a clear presumption that a jury trial will take place in all cases.
In line with the commitments made in Parliament in 2015—before the July 2017 expiry date that necessitates our being here today—the Secretary of State held a full public consultation on whether non-jury trial provisions should be extended. The consultation concluded in February this year. It received a total of 10 responses from a range of interested individuals and groups in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful for the Minister’s generosity in taking interventions. It would be helpful if, before she sets out the consultation’s conclusions and draws her remarks to a close, she could indicate how often the DPP has issued these certificates—he has not been at all hesitant in doing so. It would also be helpful if she could tell us about when he has refused to issue certificates, which is in the minority of cases. That sort of information would be helpful to everyone.
Chloe Smith
I am happy to do that, so I shall pause my speech and provide exactly those figures. In the 2017 calendar year, which is obviously still running, four certificates have been issued so far, and 19 were issued in the 2016 calendar year. In 2016, one request to issue a certificate was refused. I shall give the proportion as well, because it is illustrative for the House: in 2017, just 0.5% of Crown court cases have been dealt with by means of a non-jury trial under the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 —that is a percentage of all disposals. That makes it clear to the House how infrequently the provisions are used. The figure for refusals gives a sense of how carefully the DPP makes the decisions: it is not about rushed decision making; due care and attention are applied.
Before that intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was speaking about the responses to the consultation; I hope you do not mind my taking the time to put this on record for those who have an interest. The Secretary of State has received relevant briefing from security officials so that he can understand the underlying threat picture. In the light of all the evidence and views before him, the Secretary of State has decided to renew non-jury trial provisions for a further two years and to keep them under regular independent review—those are the proposals I have brought before the House. As an extra and new measure of assurance, the independent reviewer of the 2007 Act will review the non-jury trial system as part of his annual review cycle, the results of which will be made available to the public in his published report. We hope that that gives some extra reassurance to those interested in these issues.
We must recognise that Northern Ireland is in a unique situation and that the non-jury trial provisions in the 2007 Act continue to be an important factor in supporting the effective delivery of the criminal justice process in a very small number of criminal cases. Certain jury trials in Northern Ireland would not be safe from disruption by those involved in paramilitary activity, many of whom make their presence known in Northern Ireland’s close-knit communities or indeed in the public galleries of the courtrooms.
Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)
Given that some paramilitary organisations are also involved in organised crime, is the Minister confident that jurors in other trials are not being intimidated by those organisations?
Chloe Smith
That reminds us of the importance of the four conditions that apply here. If there were some link with those four conditions, any trial may be considered under these processes. The DPP must be satisfied that one of the four conditions is met, and that justice may be put at risk by the holding of a jury trial. My hon. Friend can rest assured that the provisions are available for all types of criminal cases as long as they meet the conditions.
In 2016 and 2017, a very small number of certificates were issued. I would just like to add that the DPP acts with a great measure of independence. His role is to exercise his discretion in deciding whether to issue a certificate. I note that the current DPP is due to retire this year, and he will have exercised these duties and many others in great service to this country over the years.
As I have said, the numbers of certificates are very small compared with the total burden of Crown court cases. I hope that hon. Members are reassured by the fact that the Secretary of State has not taken lightly this decision to seek to renew the non-jury trial system. We strongly believe, however, that the system is, on balance, proportionate and necessary in light of the unique risks facing the criminal justice process in Northern Ireland.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Just before the Minister concludes, can she tell us whether, in the very small number of cases that have gone before the non-jury courts, there is any evidence of appeals being put forward and indeed being successful in part as a result of the way in which they were tried in the first place?
Chloe Smith
There are indeed ways to challenge these certificates; legal challenges have been made. I will not go into them in great deal here because they are on record and available for Members to look at. However, I will draw out one interesting point from one of the pieces of case law: it is noted that not to have a jury trial is not the same as not to have fair trial. That is a crucial piece of reassurance for Members here today who may be thinking deeply about the measure for which I am asking their support.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Will the Minister comment on the concern of the Bar of Northern Ireland that the criteria under which a challenge can be brought under section 7 of the 2007 Act is really very narrow and confined to exceptional circumstances? That concern comes out clearly in the consultation and is expected to be addressed in some way.
Chloe Smith
I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for his contribution. He speaks with great experience, as he has spoken on these issues from this very Dispatch Box. He is right that the consultation responses, while being broadly in favour of continuing the system—indeed many of them noted that they had faith in the Secretary of State’s decision—contained some points of detail that could be considered in the future. However, I must point out that the provisions expire this month. I am asking the House to extend them now for immediate purposes, which is somewhat separate to the broader question of reform that we might look at in due course. I have mentioned an independent review, which will be a very good opportunity to draw out all these issues. I will also take the opportunity to put it on the record that the very complexity of these issues reminds us why we want to see an Executive in place in Northern Ireland—so that a Ministry of Justice there can properly play its part in these issues as well.
In conclusion, we would love to be able to do away with these measures as early as we possibly can, but that can only ever be done when circumstances allow. We want a system that remains fair, effective, necessary, appropriate and proportionate. We look forward to discussing it further under the annual independent review, but, for now, I commend this order to the House.
Chloe Smith
I begin my brief closing remarks by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) for that moving, sombre and timely illustration of exactly the issues we are dealing with today. On behalf of the whole House, I thank him for sharing that piece of his family’s unfortunate experience.
Dr Julian Lewis
This is an appropriate point, is it not, to show our appreciation for the work of our armed forces, without whose courage we would never have had a political settlement, and to express our concern that former service personnel still face the possibility of trial for matters arising out of the troubles when terrorist murderers are able to walk free?
Chloe Smith
My right hon. Friend will be well aware that, at this point, I am not able to deal fully with the issues he raises, except to say in brief that we would all wish to have a way of dealing with legacy issues in Northern Ireland that is fair, balanced and proportionate. We will have to return to those more fully at a later time.
I will do my best to work my way swiftly through the requests that have been made of me this afternoon. I thank the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), for his support for the measures, and for the additional reasons he gave for the argument that many of us share. He asked how the review mechanism will work. I confirm that it is for David Seymour to decide on the exact mechanisms of the independent review. We can all have confidence that his previous work has been very thorough, and that he will bring to the subject the oversight and transparency that we would wish for. In some ways, that answers other points that have been made—there are bigger issues than are in the order.
The independent review report will be laid before both Houses.
Stephen Pound
Will the Minister tell the House whether that will be on an annual, biannual or six-monthly basis?
Chloe Smith
It will be part of David Seymour’s annual review cycle. I think I said that in my earlier remarks, but I am happy to make it clear for the record.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the erstwhile Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee—
Chloe Smith
Indeed. No doubt we will see my right hon. Friend serve as the Chairman again. He and a number of hon. Members asked about the mechanisms of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. I can confirm to the House that that Act remains in force. The threshold is different for these provisions—the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) made those very same points. Obviously, the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 came after the 2003 Act. Today’s provisions were designed to complement the 2003 Act—the provisions that were already in force in the UK. They are specific to Northern Ireland and were designed to be a way to address its legacy of paramilitary activity and the risks to the population at large that stem from that.
Chloe Smith
I am afraid I must press on, as I have only few minutes left in which to answer points raised by quite a few Members.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury asked how many judges sat on the trials. I can confirm that in a non-jury trial there is a single judge. He and others asked about the trend for the types of trials that use the provisions. As I confirmed earlier to the House, trials have come from both republican and loyalist sides of the community, but, as we have seen in this debate, they are for criminal trials of all types. As long as the request falls under one of the four conditions, and the DPP is satisfied on the fifth, a certificate may be issued. I note that others, including the hon. Member for North Down, have gone further into what type of defendant has been tried under the provisions. I will not comment on individual cases in the Chamber, but I will confirm that they are designed to be used across communities and to protect the general public from the scourge of intimidation.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) asked about human rights implications. I am glad to have the opportunity to say a little more on that. In the explanatory memorandum, the Secretary of State is clear that in his view the provisions do not infringe on equality and human rights measures. That is the simple part. The more complex part is that one reason why we feel the provisions are necessary is because they protect the human rights of jurors. As my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham made absolutely clear, jurors have a right to enjoy a family life and a right to privacy. When we talk about the potential intimidation of juries, we must remember how those rights apply. It is also possible to argue that if a person does not receive an unbiased jury trial, their rights as a defendant have been compromised. I raise these points in brief just to say to the hon. Lady and others that these are complex issues, but we feel confident that the 2007 Act does not compromise human rights and indeed that it upholds, to the extent possible in the circumstances, the right to a fair trial.
My hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) wanted granularity in the list of where the measures have been used. As I said, I will not comment on individual cases but I am happy to write to him, and to other hon. Members who raised this point, with a little more detail to further illustrate the kind of trials to which they may apply. He highlighted the comments by the Bar. I reiterate that we all want to look towards a world where these provisions are not necessary. We have an opportunity to do that with the forthcoming independent review.
I welcome the comments made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). He emphasised the range of paramilitary criminality we face and I am grateful to him for placing it on the record. I am equally grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Alan Mak) and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) for illustrating further the reasons we should all be able to support the measures. I particularly welcome the hon. Lady to her role not only in the House generally, but as the justice spokesperson for her party.
Let me now deal with the remaining points made by the hon. Member for North Down, and dwell a little further on issues relating to the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The relevant provisions have been used in England in two cases, one in 2004 and one that is before Leeds Crown Court this year. It has not yet been used in Northern Ireland, but, as I have said, the two systems are designed to be complementary.
The measures in the 2003 Act do not address one very important issue, namely the potential for bias in juries. We have discussed the potential perversion of a justice system. There has not been time for us to go into this type of provision in too much detail, but it involves the important concept of wishing to avoid trials that could be undermined by biased juries, a problem that could arise in the context of the presence of paramilitaries in close communities. I am confident that the hon. Lady and some of her near neighbours are familiar with such issues, and—like, I think, all Members who are here today—want to see an end to paramilitarism, and an end to a world in which these unfortunate measures are necessary. I think we have all agreed that we want to see a move to renew and refresh the Executive in Northern Ireland, so that they too can play a part in ensuring that a robust criminal justice system serves all the communities in Northern Ireland.
I commend the order to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017, which was laid before this House on 22 June, be approved.
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the last half hour, the Department for Work and Pensions has made available a written statement outlining the closure of jobcentres across the country, which will lead to the loss of 750 jobs, including jobs at Newton-le-Willows jobcentre in my constituency. The story was briefed to the media earlier today, but no Minister has come to the House to be scrutinised or asked questions about this catastrophic decision, which will lead to the loss of so many jobs. I think that that shows contempt for the House, for scrutiny, and, most important, for the people who are losing their jobs. Can you advise me, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how we can ensure that when Ministers make and announce decisions such as this, they do it properly, in the House?
Oral Answers to Questions
Chloe Smith Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)
3. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The terrorist threat level in Northern Ireland remains unchanged at “severe”—namely, an attack is highly likely. The need for vigilance remains, and I pay tribute to the brave men and women who work to keep communities safe. They will always have this Government’s fullest support.
Mr Jayawardena
Last December, the Secretary of State assured me in the Chamber that he would be unswerving and unstinting in underlining the huge contribution of our armed forces, so will the Minister join me in welcoming the commitment in our manifesto that the bodies envisaged in the Stormont House agreement will be fair, balanced and proportionate to former soldiers?
Chloe Smith
Yes, I do reiterate that commitment in our manifesto. We continue to focus on implementing the Stormont House agreement and creating new bodies that will be fair, balanced and proportionate. The next phase, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has outlined, is to consult publicly on the detail of those bodies’ workings.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
As the Member of Parliament in the west of the Province who takes his seat, may I ask the Minister whether she is aware of the fact that security has been getting worse in the west of Northern Ireland, particularly the north-west? Will she review the problems associated with the bomb disposal team in getting them to the places where problems have occurred?
Chloe Smith
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s experience in this area and would be more than delighted to meet him to hear more about his specific concerns. As a new Minister, I have endeavoured to be in touch straight away with all the Northern Ireland MPs and those in the House with an interest. We must be vigilant, as I said earlier, and I look forward to further detail from him.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Will the Minister ensure that she and the Secretary of State play a full part in the Government’s forthcoming review of counter-terrorism strategy to reflect the lethal nature of the domestic terrorism threat in Norther Ireland? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
There is far too much noise and too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber. There has been extensive interest in all parts of the House in Northern Ireland in recent weeks; there ought to be interest in these matters being treated of in the Chamber today.
Chloe Smith
The short answer is yes. Both I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will endeavour to ensure that security is at the forefront of all that we do.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
The Minister will know that many terrorists have been brought back to Northern Ireland to face justice under the European arrest warrant. Will she commit today from the Dispatch Box that this Government will keep that arrest warrant post-Brexit?
Chloe Smith
The right hon. Gentleman will know that all such matters are for negotiation and are in the hands of my right hon. Friend the Brexit Secretary. We enjoy strong working relationships with our counterparts in the Irish Government. We intend to continue that, in the service of all the communities of Northern Ireland.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
4. What assessment he has made of the implications of exiting the EU for the free movement of people between Northern Ireland and the (a) Republic of Ireland and (b) rest of the UK.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear in her letter to Donald Tusk that we want to avoid a return to a hard border—nobody wishes to return to the border of the old days— and to maintain the common travel area. That desire is shared with the Republic of Ireland and the European Union, and we shall work tirelessly to achieve it.
Gareth Johnson
Northern Ireland is as much part of the United Kingdom as Dartford, but does the Minister agree that, given Northern Ireland’s unique situation, it is essential that there is a frictionless border between it and the Republic, without ever compromising the security of the whole of the United Kingdom?
Chloe Smith
Yes, I do agree. We all want to see people and goods moving as freely as possible across the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, in the service of a strong economy for those who need it.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Mindful of the worryingly high levels of radicalisation of people in the Republic of Ireland, what assurances can the Minister give DUP Members that the soft border that is important for trade will not become an unsafe border in terms of security?
Chloe Smith
I value the strong working relationship between this country and the Republic of Ireland, which will allow us to focus on the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman. We need to preserve the common travel area and to maintain tariff-free trade with Europe. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”]
Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)
7. What recent progress has been made on developing Northern Ireland's economy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Chloe Smith)
The fundamentals of the Northern Ireland economy are strong, with growth last year at 1.6%. Unemployment has fallen and employment has risen, but there is much more we must do.
Jeremy Quin
I welcome the additional investment in Northern Ireland’s economy, to address structural weaknesses. May I urge the Government to reinforce their efforts to secure private sector and foreign direct investment?
Chloe Smith
I assure my hon. Friend that we will continue to do that, using our relationships across the globe. It is clear that, despite the progress made in recent years, special circumstances still apply to Northern Ireland. We want a strong economy for all communities there.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The industrial strategy and the national shipbuilding strategy give two key opportunities for the Minister and this Government to assist in building and growing the Northern Ireland economy. Will she facilitate discussions with us and Ministry of Defence colleagues so that we can advance those golden opportunities for our Province?
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)
Under the terms of the Azores agreement and legislation passed through this House, only a devolved Administration can use their powers to reduce corporation tax, which would have an overwhelming beneficial impact on every citizen in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister guarantee that that will be raised in the talks over the next two days?
Chloe Smith
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will do everything he can to ensure that those talks come to a successful conclusion. The point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) simply underlines the need to make the reaching of that agreement a priority.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
8. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on the peace process of an agreement on confidence and supply between the Government and the Democratic Unionist party.