Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

The reason we are phasing the measure in is to make sure that we get it right. There are internal DWP processes that are taking too long. The assessment is taking too long, and it is also the case that some claimants are taking too long to return the forms that have been sent to them. We are working on this with both providers, and we will get there.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Under the current DLA system, it is hard for people with severe mental health conditions to get the higher-rate amount, but will that change when PIP is implemented?

[Mike Penning]

We often hear about the negative side of PIP, and we have heard again from the Opposition today about their opposition to some parts of it, but there is a great success story for people with mental health issues. Under the old DLA system, they would not be able to get the higher rate that they will receive under PIP, which should be welcomed across the House.

Welfare Reform

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Sheridan, to have this debate under your chairmanship. I want to explore where we are with welfare reform and the options for the future. The coalition Government inherited a broken welfare system that was in desperate need of reform. We have started and are seeing through the most far-reaching reforms in more than half a century. The reforms are not about saving money; they are about saving lives. They are about replacing dependence with independence.

Let us look at what has been done to date. Labour left the biggest ever peacetime deficit, with £120 million a day in interest bills. Under Labour, welfare spending increased by 60%, taking inflation into account. That is £3,000 a year for every household in Britain. More than £170 billion was spent on tax credits, four and a half times the cost of the benefits they replaced. By the end, out-of-work benefits were increasing nearly twice as quickly as earnings. That was the toxic legacy left by the Labour party, and that is the out-of-control spending that the Government have fought to keep in check while protecting pensioners with the triple lock.

Welfare spending is now falling as a share of GDP. Savings of £25 billion will have been made by the end of this financial year, with £50 billion having been saved by the end of the Parliament. At every turn Labour has been unapologetic. Labour has opposed every single reform, including universal credit, and has provided no ideas. Labour has nothing to say. Indeed, the few policies developed so far are spending pledges, rather than savings. For example, the jobs guarantee will cost a staggering £1 billion. On my count, it is the 10th time that Labour’s bank bonus tax has been spent. To every problem, its answer is the same: more spending, more borrowing, more debt and more welfare. It is small wonder that the Labour party is increasingly known as the welfare party.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies says that we need to reduce the benefits bill by a third, but Labour has failed to name even one working age benefit it would cut. Government Members have given thought to the reforms that could be made to promote a greater sense of fairness: fairness to people on welfare, so that they might have independence in place of dependence; and fairness to hard-working people and their families, who expect their taxes to be used to help people escape poverty and welfare, rather than further to enchain them within it.

I have been giving thought to how work-based benefits could be reformed, particularly to improve the position of women in the workplace. In our system, industrial injuries benefits cost £907 million a year, while maternity pay costs £2.3 billion. The maternity pay system, however, too often hampers rather than safeguards the position of women in the workplace. There are still too many barriers to hiring women. Too often employers are scared of employing women who may go on maternity leave. Even the Labour peer, Lord Sugar, was moved to say:

“We have maternity laws where people are entitled to too much.”

He also said that the prospect of women becoming pregnant and taking maternity leave puts businesses off hiring women.

That attitude needs to change, as does the shocking complexity of the system, which involves complex reclaims though the tax system and leaves people at risk of their employer going bust or otherwise failing to pay. Women are increasingly self-employed, yet the self-employed are worse off with maternity allowance, and injury benefits are sparse indeed. Meanwhile, pay is not even at minimum wage levels. Pay is set at £137 a week, which is a far cry from the £220 received by a minimum wage earner for a 35-hour week. To my mind, the system is ripe for reform, to safeguard and improve the position of women in the workplace, to increase simplicity and security, to treat the employed and self-employed alike, and to pay parental leave more fairly.

How can that be done? We should think about a new system of workplace benefits, paid for by the workplaces of the nation. We should set up an at-work scheme—a compulsory pooled risk system along the lines of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, backed up by the state but funded by business with reference to the total pay-as-you-earn income tax paid by each business. In return, businesses would see a corresponding cut in their net employers’ national insurance contributions. That way, the cost would not be affected by the number of injuries or the amount of maternity leave that might at any one time affect any one workplace. The at-work scheme would pay out regardless, whether there were no parental leave absences or many. In that way, the fear of the burden of maternity would be reduced, and so too would the barriers to women in the workplace. The self-employed would contribute on the same basis and be treated in the same way as employed people. Pay for leave could more easily be increased from the current £137 a week to the minimum wage level of £220, and that would ensure that the minimum basic standard would be the minimum wage.

We have seen the toxic legacy left by the Labour party and we have passed welfare reforms to save lives and promote independence in place of dependence.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue about the future of welfare reform. Will he join me in deploring the fact that the current welfare reform measures have still not been implemented in Northern Ireland, at a possible cost of more than £1 billion over the next five years? The Finance Minister there indicated that the Northern Ireland Executive have already lost £15 million. We have negotiated good tweaks to the system to suit the Northern Ireland situation, yet Sinn Fein holds up that reform, at a massive cost to the Northern Ireland block grant. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is time for Northern Ireland to move into line with what is happening elsewhere?

[Charlie Elphicke]

Yes, I would. It is about fairness to hard-working people and their families. They pay their taxes and want to see those taxes used to help people escape poverty, rather than to enchain them within it. They want their taxes to fund doctors, teachers and nurses, rather than those on welfare. It is also about fairness to people on welfare and their having a greater sense of independence, rather than being locked into a cycle of dependence. I hope that the Northern Ireland Executive will think more carefully about the future, and fairness for working people and those not in work.

In the absence of any positive ideas from the Labour party, I hope the Government will consider new reforms like the one I am suggesting. It would promote the role of women in the workplace, increase simplicity and security, treat employed and self-employed alike, and ensure that maternity and parental leave is paid fairly and that the system is funded by the workplaces of the nation on a long-term sustainable basis.

[Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)]

rose—

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Order. Mr Kwarteng, I notice that you have not registered to speak in today’s debate. Protocol suggests that, with the agreement of the hon. Gentleman who introduced the debate and the Minister, you can speak. Do you have permission?

[Charlie Elphicke]

indicated assent.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

indicated assent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Order. Mr Bryant, you also did not register to speak. Do you have the permission of the promoter and the Minister to speak?

[Charlie Elphicke]

indicated assent.

[Steve Webb]

indicated assent.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am grateful, Mr Sheridan. I also thank the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) for securing this debate. If it had been an hour-and-a-half debate, it would have been more conventional to have several people speaking. I say to the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) that it is not only a convention, but a rule of the House that only two people are allowed to speak in these half-hour debates. We are therefore engaging in a rather unusual practice this afternoon, which is why things are slightly confusing. The hon. Member for Dover gave a rather short speech—the debate’s promoter normally takes 15 minutes—and he devoted quite a lot of it to saying nasty things about the Labour party. I understand why he wants to do that, but I want to correct some impressions.

The Labour party has been engaged in a process of welfare reform and was when in government. One of the key things that we wanted to achieve was ensuring that work pays. In my constituency, which has historically high levels of people on one form or other of sickness benefit, people have been trapped in a style of poverty that ends up being inherited from one generation to the next. Opposition Members are desperately keen to ensure that we have a system under which work always pays. That is why we supported the introduction of the national minimum wage, which we see as part of welfare reform, and why we introduced tax credits as another means of making it possible for people to get into work.

I do not accept the argument of the hon. Member for Spelthorne that Labour has never been in favour of welfare reform. Indeed, key elements of what the Government are doing now are right. The move towards universal credit is right. The Government have been too ambitious in the time scale that they have set themselves, and it would help the Government’s cause were they a bit more honest about the fact that the scheme is neither on time nor on budget and that a great amount of money has been wasted. Ministers have not yet made key decisions, such as when somebody goes on to universal credit, whether their children will be entitled to free school meals. At the moment, there is a difference between those on in-work benefits and those on out-of-work benefits. The latter’s children get free school meals, but the former’s do not. Universal credit does not recognise the difference between the two, which is a key policy issue that will have to be determined.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The Labour party initially voted against universal credit. Labour should be more supportive of the Government during a big, important reform, rather than too often appearing to throw rocks from the sidelines.

[Chris Bryant]

We are keen to try to help the Government make universal credit work, but it is difficult so to do if the Secretary of State is mouthing inanities and presenting such an optimistic version of events that some might construe it not to be entirely true, which is what the Labour party believe has happened. It is a convention that people receive absolution only after confessing, and the Government need to own up to a few more of the problems that they are experiencing with universal credit. We would then be more than happy to help them.

Another classic example is the bedroom tax. People have different views about whether it is right and proper, but my argument is that while it might be a legitimate thing if we knew that everyone had smaller properties to move to, in truth, when those smaller properties are not available, it is a fairly cruel and vindictive assault on some of the most vulnerable people in society, including hundreds of thousands of disabled people. Even more bizarrely, the Government managed to mess that up by not spotting the loophole in their legislation. On the same day, three different Ministers said different things: one said that only 3,000 to 5,000 would be affected; another said in the House of Lords that the number would be insignificant; and a third Minister said that she had no idea how many people would be affected. Through freedom of information requests, which the Government should have submitted, we already know that, from the third of local authorities who have replied, 16,000 households are affected. In other words, it is likely that some 48,000 to 50,000 people are affected.

The Labour party is engaged in a process of welfare reform. We always have been. We want to make welfare work, so that it both supports those who desperately need it at key times in their lives and gives people an opportunity to stand on their own two feet. In your constituency, Mr Sheridan, and in mine, the vast majority of people are not looking for handouts; they are looking to stand on their own feet, to put food on the table for their family and to provide a better future for their children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

I will not, because it is the debate of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover. I want to respond to some of his specific ideas on workplace benefits. I agree with his goals. I absolutely agree that we need a system that is fair for women; that we need to think hard about anything in the system that makes an employer less likely to employ a woman of childbearing age; and that we clearly want the system to work for self-employed women. He has made some important points.

As the system currently works, however, 93% of the cost of statutory maternity pay is refunded to employers. In fact, more than 100% is refunded to small firms. Small firms that take on a woman who becomes pregnant and goes on maternity leave will get back all the maternity pay that they pay out, plus what is essentially a handling charge—another 3% on top. Even a large employer gets 92% or thereabouts of reimbursement.

If an employer is reluctant to take on a woman who might have a child, therefore, the pure finances should not make a huge difference. Clearly, there is a bureaucracy issue with the reclaiming and so on, and we are happy to look at whether that can be streamlined, but the basic principle is that the employers get the lion’s share of the money back. The thing that might put them off, as my hon. Friend said in his speech, is the thought, “Well, I employ this person. They might not be there in some months’ time. I might have to provide maternity cover, retraining and so on,” but however we reimburse maternity pay, that will still be a feature of the system.

I am not therefore sure that having a collectivised—I hesitate to use the word, but my hon. Friend knows what I mean—system of insurance is any different substantively for the employer. Either way, employers are getting reimbursed—the costs are being met and are not in essence falling on the employer.

My hon. Friend’s proposal is interesting and I am grateful to him for suggesting it, but one of my worries arises from something that I have learnt as a Minister. Whenever we set up a new scheme, we have new infrastructure, bureaucracy and sets of rules. If we had the levy—the at-work scheme that he described—we would have to define the new tax base, have a new levy collection mechanism, work out who was in and who was out, have appeals and all that kind of stuff. There is always a dead weight to such things. Simply setting up new infrastructure costs money. I would have to be convinced that we were getting something back for it.

In essence, my hon. Friend is proposing that, instead of the general taxpayer paying into the pot and employers handing out statutory maternity pay, which is reimbursed by the Government from the general taxpayer—the current system—we have a new levy on employers, although he recognises that he does not want a new jobs tax, so that it is offset by a reduction in something else that employers pay and the tax in that world is neutral overall. However, he then says that he wants the rate not to be some £130 a week, but to be £200 and something a week.

My hon. Friend was commendably brief, so I apologise if I misunderstood, but I was not clear where that extra money would come from. If we pay women on maternity leave double, someone must pay for it. If he does not want that to be an extra burden on firms, paying for it will simply be a tax increase. That might be the right thing to do—increasing taxes to pay for it—but it is an increase.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Part of the reason for raising the rate is to bring it into line with the self-employed position. Also, however, most work places have the extra maternity leave as well, yet a small number of less good employers do not top up the statutory amount. The idea is to raise the threshold, so that women on maternity leave are overall in a better position.

[Steve Webb]

I appreciate that my hon. Friend would like to make the scheme more generous, but my sense is that that is potentially quite a substantial cost. If we spend £2 billion already and he wants to double the rate, is that another £2 billion? I do not know. Without more detail, I could not say, but it might be a substantial cost that we have to think through.

On the important issue of self-employed women, the dilemma is that if they have chosen to be self-employed, they are paying class 2 national insurance of about £2.70 a week, while their employed sisters are paying national insurance of 12%, or whatever the rate is, as an employee, while their employer is paying another 13.8%. The best part of 25% of wages is raised in national insurance from the employed earner, while £2.70 something a week comes from the self-employed—or at class 4, depending on how much she is earning. The amount going into the system from the self-employed is vastly lower; the maternity provision for the self-employed, however, is only a bit lower for some women.

In that first six weeks, when we are on 90% of earnings, the employed earner could get more, but some self-employed women get more than their employed counterparts, because of the detail of the rules. There is an issue about some women who pay voluntary class 2 at two or three quid a week for a period of time, but then become entitled to maternity allowance running into thousands, having only put in £50 or £100 into the system. There is a worry that the system is possibly too lax in that area and we might need to think about it.

It is absolutely right that self-employed women get proper maternity provision, which is what the maternity allowance is for. Relative to what they put into the system, however, what they get out of it is a fantastic rate of return compared with an employed earner. An employed earner is putting far more in, while the employer is also putting in.

On the tax base for my hon. Friend’s idea, he proposes that all firms should contribute. Unless the self-employed are also going to contribute, they will either benefit without contributing, or we are talking about another levy on the self-employed as well. Having chosen to be self-employed, people often change, because of the lack of burdens, costs and levies of being an employed earner. We would have to think about whether we are distorting the choice between becoming an employed earner or a self-employed person if we made those changes.

I do not want to end on a discouraging note, because my hon. Friend has raised an important challenge. We do not want to be in a situation in which employers, through prejudice or for other reasons, are disinclined to employ women of childbearing age. That is clearly an important issue. We must ensure, however, that the social security system reflects the labour market as it is now and not as it was after the second world war. We need to reflect on the fact that there are growing numbers of, first, women working and, secondly, self-employed women. The Department is not currently doing work in this area, because we have our hands full with reform, but it is always good to look at such things.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Part of my thinking is that we are about to have a revolution with the whole concept of shared parental leave, so that issue of men versus women in the workplace will tend to blur. That might be a good time to look at reworking the system in this way, to encourage and help parents in the workplace.

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend is right, and the coalition can be proud of the shared parental leave approach and for rethinking the nature of what happens after a child is born and whether it is mum, dad or a combination of the two who take time off. My hon. Friend is also right to encourage us to think outside departmental silos: the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills does parental leave, but the Department for Work and Pensions does maternity pay, and so on. He makes a welcome link. I am not convinced that his scheme is necessarily affordable, because of the additional cost involved, but he makes an important link.

I have a final word of encouragement to employers, who may be listening to our proceedings. About 10 years ago, less than half of mothers who went on maternity leave came back and worked in the same job; that figure was about 40%, but it is now 80%. The norm now for an employer who takes on a woman who goes on maternity leave is that—four times out of five—she will come back to the job for which she was trained, in which she is experienced and to which she can contribute.

Likewise, we now find that three quarters of women return to work within 12 to 18 months of having their baby. There is a norm: if someone takes on a woman of childbearing age, the odds are that she will come back to the same job within 12 to 18 months. We need to educate employers about the fact that, if they do not employ women of childbearing age, they are depriving themselves of talented people who contribute to the work force. Not employing such women is clearly a bad thing, not only from a social point of view, but from an economic point of view.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the issue and my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne, who serves on the Select Committee now and is thinking hard about such issues, on his contribution. We have done a huge amount of reform in this Parliament, and we want to see our reforms through and deliver them, because we want our legacy to be a system that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dover said, encourages independence, not dependence, that is fiscally responsible, but that works with the grain of people, so that those who want to work hard and get on are encouraged and enabled to do so, rather than being trapped on benefit, which was the risk of the system that we inherited.

Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Grant]

I am appalled to hear of the physical assaults against those two referees, who have no doubt done excellent work in my hon. Friend’s constituency. The FA and Sport England have invested £60 million in the programme on raising standards. I would also welcome the full protection of the law for officials wherever attacks take place to ensure that community football is safe and enjoyable.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

8. What assessment she has made of the benefits of broadband to the rural economy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

We published an impact study last year. It showed that, in a decade’s time, the rural gross value added will be £3.3 billion—in 2013 prices—greater than it would otherwise have been. No doubt my hon. Friend welcomes the £10 million we are investing in broadband in Kent to help achieve that.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I welcome the Minister’s answer. Businesses in my constituency of Dover and Deal complain persistently about the appalling service provided by BT on connections, line speeds and fixing things when they go wrong. What more can he do to ensure that BT delivers as promised?

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend rightly raises that issue regularly. The Government work with Ofcom and BT Openreach to ensure that the highest standards are maintained. There are occasional problems, which we work on, but BT did a good job over Christmas and new year during the floods.

Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

First, let us talk about the Work programme, which is the first time we have ever had a coherent way to address and support these people back into work. We know through industry statistics that over 440,000 people have got a job from that programme and that over 100,000 have found a long-term job. We are supporting people as best we can—the first time we have ever done this. We are taking specific steps, too: we are analysing everything, watching what works, conducting a best-practice group and implementing the findings. So this is new, it has started and we are getting it better.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Can the Minister confirm that the pilot is the first time that ESA has been looked at in a co-ordinated way to try and get people to fulfil their potential? Will she also confirm that it is innovative policies such as this that mean our unemployment is so much lower than that in countries such as France where the Labour party’s policies are being pursued to economic catastrophe?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is right. Most of Europe is looking to us to see how we get people into work, whereas the Opposition are looking to France where the exact opposite is happening. This is a very complicated journey for people who are in the ESA group and for most of them it is about understanding their lifestyles and getting them closer to the workplace and then into a job.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I made it clear in my previous answer that I will be coming forward with full details about that, including the number of people affected.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I urge the Secretary of State to promote fairness for people on housing waiting lists, fairness for people in overcrowded accommodation, where children have to do their homework in the hallways, and fairness for hard-working people and their families when it comes to welfare tourism.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly right. The reality that my hon. Friend has spotted is that the Opposition have voted against every single one of our welfare reforms. Not only would the welfare bill have been £45 billion higher under them, but more people would be out of work and they would have failed the British people.

Universal Credit

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Because back in 2011-12, as a result of that work, I decided there were problems in the way the system was being developed, so I intervened and brought in a group of people from outside to look at it. They agreed with me and we have since reset the programme. The truth is that Labour never did any of that when in government, and the right hon. Lady needs to ask herself, why not?

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I urge my right hon. Friend to reject the representations of Labour Members, who the whole House can see do not really believe in making work pay, and who long for universal credit to fail. Has he noticed that the write-offs are about one tenth of a per cent. of the £26 billion of taxpayers’ money wasted by the Opposition?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. Again and again what is going on is a kind of hypocrisy, with Labour Members somehow claiming that they did things properly. They never did; they lost billions and billions on programmes, whether in the Ministry of Defence or in my Department. We have been picking up the pieces and putting it right.

Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. Just so that we can hear it again, even though I have said it twice and he has said it once, youth unemployment has fallen for 17 consecutive months.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Will the Minister tell the House how the Youth Contract performs in terms of value for money and effectiveness compared with the future jobs fund?

[Esther McVey]

The future jobs fund cost £6,500 per outcome, whereas our work experience outcomes cost £325, which is a 20th of the price for exactly the same outcomes. As always, the coalition Government are delivering value for money.

Capping Welfare Spending

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I am delighted to have secured the debate. The level of welfare spending and whether it should be capped have been the subject of great public interest but have not been discussed much in Parliament, so this is a good opportunity to give the issue a short airing.

Even before the crash, the cost of welfare spending rose by 50% under the previous Government. All sides agree that when the good times rolled, too little action was taken, in the famous words of the Chancellor, to fix the roof while the sun was shining. The current Government have had little choice but to take necessary but tough decisions. We must live within our means, and welfare reform and capping welfare are key parts of that. It is a question of fairness. In my constituency and up and down the land, people go out, work hard and try to do the right thing for their families, spouses, children and loved ones, to make ends meet in difficult times. They look around and they tell me, “It’s simply not fair that there are people living on benefits who are better off than we are. Why do we go out to work? Why do we bother? Why not just live a life on benefits and be better off?” It is wrong that people who do not work enjoy a higher standard of living than people who go out to work and do the best they can.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the vast majority of those who are on benefit do not choose to live that lifestyle, but the previous Government designed a system that traps them, because they receive more in benefits than they are ever likely to get through work? The system traps people in that condition.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I completely agree with the powerful point that my hon. Friend makes. The number of households in which no member has ever worked doubled under the previous Government. As he says, we cannot stand by and allow social failure on such a grand scale to continue for a moment longer. That is why no family who are out of work should be better off on benefits; why a benefit cap is right; and why it is set at £26,000 a year.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, from the perspective of a Yorkshire MP or an MP from another part of the country, the benefit cap could be much lower in certain areas, which would be much fairer to working people in those areas?

[Charlie Elphicke]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, which is certainly a topic for debate, so I hope that the Minister will address it when he responds. The Government have sent a positive social signal that work is a force for social good. Capping the amount of benefit that any one family can receive is right and has been met with great approval in my constituency. My constituents raised the issue time and again.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate and for giving way. At the beginning of his speech, he mentioned that the current Government had inherited debt from the previous Government. I remind him that after 18 years of the Conservative party being in power, that previous Labour Government found in ’97 that, for every pound levied in tax, 50p went to pay off debt. They eliminated a lot of inherited debt, but that is not my main point. When I was a Member under previous Conservative Governments, people were trapped in housing estates. The hon. Gentleman wants to call it the system that we inherited or whatever, but whatever system we bring in, there are going to be people trapped in certain estates—they used to be called Thatcher’s children.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interesting intervention, but I cannot agree with him. When the current Government came to office, the interest bill was the same as the entire education budget—I think that I am right in saying that. It was a very substantial amount. That is not a great showcase for fine administration of the public finances. It is well understood that the country’s debt was entirely out of control. I take his important point about social mobility and helping people to get out of the traps of poverty. Universal credit will make work pay, incentivise work and encourage people to do well, and that lies at the heart of much what the Government are doing. I approve of that approach. We need to build in incentives, by on the one hand limiting the amount of benefit and on the other hand encouraging work and making it pay.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

For too long, people in my constituency who were out of work for considerable periods, because they had challenges that needed to be overcome, did not get the proper, expensive advice and support that they needed to get back into the workplace or into it for the first time. Does my hon. Friend agree that in these difficult times, with a limited pot of money, we are better off spending money on top-quality advice, rather than increasing the welfare budget?

[Charlie Elphicke]

Absolutely, and a lot of Government policy has been about that. The Work programme is a key part of giving people the tools, education and support to get back into the world of work and understand the rhythm of a working day.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for taking my intervention. The Government are trying to ensure that the whole welfare system is perceived as fair. In a very low-pay constituency such as mine, the vast majority of people believe that the welfare cap is crucial if the system is to be fair and seen to be fair.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Absolutely. The system needs to be fair, and I hope that in his response Minister will address the important issue my hon. Friend raises.

The average pay packet has not increased much in recent years. The recession was serious and the recovery has been long, hard and extremely choppy, so it is right that welfare benefits should not increase faster than pay packets. It is unfair that benefits have risen twice as fast as average earnings since the financial crisis, which is why the Government are right to introduce a 1% uprating limit. My constituents have told me that that is an important signal about fairness and the fact that work is good. The Government are also right to make work pay, with universal credit and by increasing the income tax personal allowance. At the same time, the Government have sought to be fair and protect the most vulnerable—the disabled, the elderly and the incapacitated.

Benefit capping is about not only fairness, but money. We should remember the country’s debt crisis. Savings of £4.4 billion by 2017 are not trivial, so it is small wonder that more than 60% of people have told pollsters that they support the Government’s measures to restore fairness on benefit uprating. The Government have been prepared to make the most difficult decisions—I will not shirk that issue. Capping housing benefit, so that it is most aligned to housing need, has not been easy. It was a difficult decision. People do want to be told that they will have to pay more for their spare room, but that cap is also about fairness, which is why a clear majority of people tell pollsters that they support the difficult decisions that the Government have taken. There are 1.8 million households on the housing waiting list and 249,000 households live in overcrowded social housing, yet 386,000 households in the social sector are under-occupied. It is important that we take measures to restore the balance, so capping housing benefit is right and fair.

I would like to press the Minister slightly. Will he consider extending the principle of tackling the spare room subsidy, so that the social housing provider takes the burden? I am concerned that too many social housing providers think that they can simply pass the buck when it comes to managing their housing stock fairly and appropriately and making fair allocations. The spare room does not affect them, so why should they care? Too often, they are content to do little or nothing about fair housing allocation. The best incentive to get them to clean up their acts would be for social housing providers to take some or all of the burden for their incompetence in the management of housing allocations over such a long time. I hope that the Minister will consider that proposal, because it is right to send a strong message to social housing providers that indolence in housing management is not an excuse.

[Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Would he particularly welcome the fact that, as of today, 2,500 out-of-work households in London can no longer claim more than the average working family earns? In London, where I was a senior councillor for several years, we have seen some particularly egregious cases of people in houses with equivalent rents of more than £100,000. I agree that that involved a few isolated cases, but it was a real slap in the face for hardworking people in London trying to get by on £10,000, £15,000 or even £20,000. A bit like with Abu Qatada and the human rights law, it crystallised for so many people the inequity and unfairness of things.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. He made that same good point earlier today, in questions to the Prime Minister if I recall rightly. It is a serious point. We need to get a balance of fairness.

If we want to know whether people are affected, we need just to look at the local authority discretionary payments budget. Members can correct me if I am wrong—I am sure that the Minister will—but I believe that the budget has been under-spent, which indicates that the impact has perhaps been understated by some for political purposes, rather than their dealing with the practical effects of restoring fairness. Most of my constituents say, “It’s just not acceptable that anyone should have something for nothing, given the difficult times we live in.”

The Government have raised the issue of the overall cap, which is something I welcome strongly. It needs to be a serious cap, not the sort of nonsense that we have been hearing from the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He does not seem able to say what his cap would be or how he would set it. Labour cannot say what would happen if the cap was breached; all the party seems able to say is that it wants to include the state pension and pensioners in it. We need to limit welfare spending, but it is not right to do it at the expenses of pensioners who have worked hard for so many years and have contributed to the system. It would not be right for any Government to start beating pensioners up and taking their pensions away, considering how much they have put into the system, so Labour is wrong on that. The party is in a total muddle and confusion. It has opposed each of our welfare reforms, which have saved some £83 billion.

When might the Minister be able to set out further details of the Government’s plan for how the welfare cap will work? Labour’s proposals are muddled and confused, and it is right that the Government should take time to get the fine detail of the plan right, rather than shooting from the hip like Labour. Does the Minister agree that it is important to limit the cost of welfare and to build on the measures that the Government are taking to do more to make work pay? I ask him to confirm that this Government will not punish pensioners for having done the right thing in years past by contributing to the system and will not take away or limit the state pension, as the Opposition seem to plan to do.

With your leave, Mr Rosindell, I will end there and allow my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) to take up the cudgels.

Remploy

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I ask the hon. Gentleman to be very cautious with the words he throws around the Chamber, many of which are inaccurate. He is correct to say that more information has gone to the NAO about the health care business and the commercial process that was undertaken, but the NAO will then just be considering whether it wants to take this further and look further into the programme. There has been no asset-stripping. There has been full governance and procedure in this commercial process, undertaken by an independent panel and by KPMG. Remploy is a legal entity in its own right and it is the legal steward of what goes forward. I warn the hon. Gentleman to be very careful with his accusations.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

If nothing had been done and Remploy had continued to suck up resources, what would the impact have been on other programmes to help disabled people back into mainstream work and on the inclusion agenda?

[Esther McVey]

We have to look at what disabled people want to do now, and they have said clearly that they want to be a part of mainstream society. They want to be in mainstream jobs and they are looking towards their goals and aspirations. We are helping them with that, be it as part of the alliance, as part of disabled people’s user-led organisations, as part of the role models programme or, as I said, as part of our new disability employment strategy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman to the extent that there is mistrust of private pensions, which is why we have taken strong action,: for example, we have banned consultancy charges, which were a source of concern. On savings incentives, if he looks at our analysis, he will find that low earners in particular will have much smaller withdrawal rates when they save. Therefore, the return on savings, particularly for low earners, about whom I am sure he is most concerned, will be enhanced by the proposals.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Does the Minister anticipate making pensions the subject of a cap at any stage?

[Steve Webb]

I think my hon. Friend might be referring to the idea of a total welfare cap, and while the Chancellor of the Exchequer has explicitly ruled out the idea of capping state pensions, I understand there are others in this House who are prepared to cap state pensions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

As I said, we are in the process of implementing Professor Harrington’s recommendations. I would make the point to the hon. Lady, however, that when her party was in government, one in 10 people received the full employment support allowance, but as a consequence of our reforms three in 10 people now receive it, which demonstrates that the system is an improvement on the one that we inherited.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Does it not indicate that the Government take ESA very seriously and are being diligent in providing unconditional support to those who need it?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I want a system that gives the right support to the people who need it the most. We should also recognise that because of our reforms and improvements to the process, only 15% of fit-for-work decisions are successfully overturned.