Backbench Business Committee

Angela Smith Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Natascha Engel]

I absolutely agree with that. When Back Benchers are given the responsibility to conduct time for themselves, they do so with added interest. If something is in people’s control, they participate in a completely different way. Also, certainly from the perspective of observers of Parliament, there is a slightly more chaotic atmosphere when Back-Bench business debates take place, as there is not the massive control that takes place on days in the control of the Government. That is important, because there has been the freedom to have debates that otherwise might not have taken place. That is a big difference between debates arranged by the Backbench Business Committee in this Parliament and previous debates.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has always been noted as someone who sticks with her colleagues through thick and thin, so it is no surprise that she has been such a successful Chair of the Committee. She talks eloquently about the often cross-party nature of many of the Backbench Business Committee debates; that has been its main strength. Will she comment on the potential tension over e-petitions, given the culture of the new Committee and its often consensual nature?

[Natascha Engel]

My other criticism of the Backbench Business Committee is in dealing with e-petitions. Potentially, they are a mechanism for Parliament to have direct contact with our electorate—an opportunity that we do not often get between elections. They could work tremendously well in letting us know directly, in Parliament, what the electorate are thinking. Unless e-petitions are dealt with in a much better way, however, rather than having hundreds and thousands of people making contact with us through signing an e-petition, they could be disappointed by their contact with Parliament.

The Backbench Business Committee is not designed to deal with e-petitions. We are having to deal with the consequences, but unfortunately, we cannot do so ourselves. The Procedure Committee has made some good recommendations, and I hope we can deal with the problem immediately after the Queen’s Speech in the new Session, because it urgently needs our attention; otherwise all those who have signed e-petitions in good faith will be sorely disappointed. The longer we leave it, the more people will be disappointed. We should be able turn the problem round and make e-petitions work, so that people can have adequate and proper contact with us and not be disappointed. My hon. Friend’s point is an important one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

That is an important issue that I hope the Procedure Committee will look at in some detail. Part of the allocation of 35 days for the Backbench Business Committee comprises what were previously set-piece debates. Defence actually had even longer—five days—along with a number of other debates, such as on fisheries or EU Council matters. There are many such debates, but we decided that they should compete on merit with all the others brought to us each week, which has disappointed those who were used to having the five defence days or the Wales day debates, for example. We, as Back Benchers, collectively need to resolve the matter, through the Procedure Committee.

I wish to draw to a close now to allow the following Back-Bench debate to take place, but I want to say a big thank you to the original members of the Committee—there were two Labour members who were replaced after they were promoted, one to the Whips Office—and to the Clerks who have supported our work, without whom we could not have done it. On a personal note, I express my gratitude for being given the opportunity to chair the Committee, which is an innovation; it is very rare that something brand-new comes along in Parliament. To have been involved right at the beginning has been a tremendous privilege.

[Angela Smith]

I hope my hon. Friend will consider standing for re-election, as Chair of the new Committee, and that the Government will ensure that the elections to the new Committee take place as soon as possible after the Queen’s Speech.

[Natascha Engel]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. I absolutely share the hope that the Government and the Opposition will conduct those elections as soon as possible, so it can continue its work. Thank you very much, Mr Brady, for chairing this mini-statement. I look forward to giving evidence to the Procedure Committee on the operation of the Backbench Business Committee, and to a new Committee being set up in the near future after the Queen’s Speech. Thank you.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angela Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

On 21 April 2010 the Deputy Prime Minister described the House of Lords as being

“stuffed full of people who have basically done favours to other politicians.”

Is that how he would describe those Lib Dems who have been sent to the Lords since the general election?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

For anyone who wants to defend the status quo, and it is unclear whether the hon. Lady does—the Labour party used to campaign proudly for reform of the bastion of privilege and inherited power but seems to have lost its historical vocation as a progressive force for political reform—I ask them to reflect on the fact that over 70% of all the people in the other place are there because of an act of political patronage. Is that really sustainable in the 21st century? I do not think so.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Angela Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) made some very partisan points about the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, but completely failed to mention that the Prime Minister’s chief of staff was acting on the advice of the permanent secretary at No. 10—the most senior permanent secretary in Whitehall. The right hon. Gentleman shared with the House the fact that he was in the Oxford university Labour club with Rupert Murdoch, who was apparently expelled for breaking campaign rules. I am surprised the right hon. Gentleman has not considered referring that to Ofcom under the “fit and proper person” regulations.

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who has played an important role in the campaign, talked about responsibility for what happens inside corporations —a point echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe. After yesterday’s evidence, many people had questions about how an organisation such as News Corporation could allow such things to happen without the knowledge of the people at the very top. I do not want to prejudge the inquiry, but there are further questions to be answered on that front.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

Time is short, and I need to make some progress.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath made an interesting point about the plurality rules in respect of drama and comedy. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) made a moving speech and said that the ultimate test of our success as a Parliament—a political class—in getting this right will be whether there is justice for the family of Milly Dowler. Many people would agree.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an important point about the need for social responsibility in the press. Sadly I did not hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), but I note that he said The Times had supported his leadership bid. In the spirit of transparency I am delighted that he shared that information with the House.

[Barry Gardiner]

rose—

[Angela Smith]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I want to make some progress, because I want to mention all the excellent comments we have heard, including those of the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) about making sure that we do not have the nexus between the police and media organisations that seems to have emerged. Many people feel that it is extremely unhealthy.

We heard good points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma). The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) talked about the concentration of media power. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) expressed a view shared by many of my hon. Friends: yes, we need to sort out the problem, but we also need to move on and sort out other problems that are of great concern to our constituents.

We heard excellent contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald), for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), for Bedford (Richard Fuller), for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) and for Stourbridge (Margot James), and the hon. Members for Bassetlaw (John Mann), for Eltham (Clive Efford), for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). I am sorry that I do not have time to talk about all those contributions.

In conclusion, we all know that there are lessons to be learned, but there has been a huge contrast between the intelligent contributions made by many Members and the attempt by Members on the Opposition Front Bench to secure partisan advantage. The problem was not just ignored by Labour in office, it was made a great deal worse, yet listening to Opposition Front-Bench speakers we could be forgiven for thinking that phone hacking happened only under this Government, when it took place under their Government. We could be forgiven for thinking that Labour politicians had never even heard of News Corporation, Rupert Murdoch or Rebekah Brooks, and for believing that it would be inconceivable for an ex-News International employee to work in the office of the leader of the Labour party.

We can all ask ourselves why so little was done, but Opposition Members, too, need to ask those questions. There has not been a spirit of humility. For example, there was no recognition of the fact that in yesterday’s evidence, Rupert Murdoch said that the Prime Minister with whom he had the closest friendship—his wife and the Prime Minister’s wife were also friends—was not the current Prime Minister but the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). It was not just the former Prime Minister, but his predecessor.

Labour Front Benchers fail to understand that when they make partisan attacks, the public will hold them to account for their record—including the Leader of the Opposition, who was a member of the Cabinet that decided to do nothing about phone hacking, and a member of the Government who failed to reform the press despite repeated warnings. He criticised the Prime Minister for ignoring warnings, but how many warnings did he himself ignore?

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Angela Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. An enormous amount of money is still spent by local authorities on their own free local newspapers. That is injurious to the newspaper industry. There is a strong case for recognising the importance of a strong regional and local newspaper industry.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

The New York Times last September said that the reporter to whom it had spoken was one of two people who said that Coulson was present during discussions about phone hacking. Did the Prime Minister discuss that allegation with Andy Coulson and if not, why not?

[The Prime Minister]

As I have said, I had a number of conversations all the time during his employment. In the end the swirl of allegations is why he left. What we have now is not only a criminal investigation, where people are being interviewed by the police and the police can go without fear or favour, but a public inquiry. None of these things happened properly under the previous Government; they are happening now, and no one will be immune from them.

Phone Hacking

Angela Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

In his statement, the Prime Minister said that Judge Leveson and his panel will inquire into “the contacts made, and discussions had, between national newspapers and politicians”. May I take it, therefore, that he will submit to the inquiry details of all meetings held between him and senior figures at News International, including the names of the individuals who attended such meetings, even if one of them was his ex-chief of staff, Andy Coulson?

[The Prime Minister]

I will be happy to go along to the inquiry and answer any questions it wants to put to me about any contacts I have had with any media organisation at any time, as long as I still have the memory of when it happened. I am very happy to do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angela Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I hear my hon. Friend’s concern about these matters, and she is quite right to raise them. The Government have established a commission to look into the case for a British Bill of Rights that will incorporate and build on the existing rights that we already enjoy and extend them further where we can.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

T6. The right to form coalitions is very much part of our constitution. In Sheffield recently, Lib Dem councillors have co-opted a United Kingdom Independence party candidate on to one of our local town councils in order to maintain their grip on power. Does not this show that the Lib Dems will do anything, and do deals with any party, to maintain their grip on power?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am not sure what case the hon. Lady is referring to—[Interruption.]

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)

Angela Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I said earlier, as is set out clearly under the Parliament Acts and in line with the convention that the Government are held to account primarily by this Chamber, the supremacy of this House would remain.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I am surprised that the Deputy Prime Minister should be focusing on this issue, given that in the local elections in Sheffield people were bothered only about jobs, inflation and getting his party out of the town hall. However, how can he describe his vision as “representative” or “democratic”, given that it would give representation to those who are members of the Church of England but would not give it to those of Jewish faith, Catholic faith or Muslim faith?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The Catholic Church prohibits its bishops from sitting in Parliaments and political bodies. Leaders of other faiths—I was in discussion with the Chief Rabbi just yesterday—also recognise that they do not possess the hierarchies that would allow them to provide that kind of representation. Those leaders of other faiths have long accepted, acknowledged and supported the idea of continued representation of the established Church in this country, even in a reformed House of Lords.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angela Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend speaks very well of someone who lived in my constituency and invested not only in rugby, but in Formula 1, which has been an absolutely world-beating industry for our country. We should celebrate that, particularly in my region, where so many people are employed in this incredibly high-tech endeavour.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Q9. Does not the Prime Minister’s plan to sell off the forests show once again that he knows the price of everything but the value of nothing?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me say to the hon. Lady and to all hon. Members who I know are very interested in this subject that we are having a consultation; we are listening to people’s views. Let me make a couple of things clear. First, we will not do what happened under the last Government, which was the sale of forests with absolutely no guarantees of access. [Interruption.] Yes, that is exactly what they did. We also have a good opportunity to bust a few myths about this situation. The idea that all Forestry Commission forests are open to the public and do not charge is simply not true. Many forests, such as the New Forest, are not owned by the Forestry Commission and have much better access, no parking charges and very good records on habitat. While we are having this consultation, we should bust some of the myths that have been put around about this idea.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Angela Smith Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and I hope that one day he will have more friends in neighbouring constituencies, which I think means that we will have to win some more Labour seats in Scotland. The key point is that, on the whole, it is better not to combine polls. I fully accept that the Minister has referred today—as have several other Members in previous debates—to the situation in the United States of America. It has an election day and the vast majority of elections are held on one single day. We have not gone down that route, and thus far it has been thought to be inappropriate to combine them on the same day, especially where a variety of different electoral systems are involved. I hope to come on to some of the specific problems of that.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

I give way to an English woman.

[Angela Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way to an English woman on this point. Does he agree that in this instance it is not just that two different polls are to be held on the same day, but that one of them is an election and the other is a referendum, and as referendums have completely different processes from those for elections, that will complicate things and could well cause confusion?

[Chris Bryant]

Indeed, and I will come on to some of the specific problems that could arise. My hon. Friend did not add, however, that they are on completely different franchises as well. The Minister seems to think that the franchise for the next general election will be the same as the franchise for the referendum. They will not be, however, because of the inclusion of peers in the referendum. It has to be said that we do not have many peers in the Rhondda, however. We have one: Baroness Gale of Blaenrhondda who, unfortunately, is in hospital at the moment—she is across the road at St Thomas’—and I wish her well. There will be confusion in respect of the different franchises and issues such as whether we have the same register or two registers, and I will talk about those specific issues a little later.

The Minister referred to all the schedules before us and how we will address them, and he said that the territorial Departments for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have today—I presume that means since the beginning of the debate this afternoon—tabled the statutory instruments that are required fully to combine the polls in each of the areas. There is no provision in statute for the combination of polls in Northern Ireland, whether for local government and Assembly elections or any other kind of elections. In Scotland, there is provision by virtue of an order, which I think was introduced in 2007, hanging off the Scotland Act 1998. That order makes it clear that local elections and parliamentary elections can be combined, but in fact it has now been decided not to combine them. In Wales, the situation is different again, because a 2007 order on the representation of the people and the Welsh Assembly makes provision to combine local elections and Welsh Assembly elections, but until now there has been no provision to enable the combining of referendums and elections.

The dangers of combining referendums are completely different from the dangers of combining elections. That is why the Government have had to introduce these statutory instruments to make provision for the referendums to be combined in each of the three territorial areas. Unfortunately, that is not the legislation that exists today, so these instruments have been tabled without, as far as I know, having been sent in advance to anybody involved in this Committee or anybody in the shadow offices in relation to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and without the Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly having been consulted on them; they have simply been published. I presume the Minister will be tabling things tomorrow, once we have finished in Committee, and he will then table a series of new amendments, which we will be able to debate on Report. I simply say that such an approach puts the horse before the cart.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

He has now made it clear, and we are deeply grateful to him, that these instruments will be dealt with by the affirmative procedure. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) received a letter to that effect—I was copied into it—on Friday.

We also need to consider what their lordships should do. I contend that we should proceed steadily, rather than at a gallop, on constitutional reform. That means, first, that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee in the House of Lords should go through their processes. We should then decide on the Floor of this House whether we agree the order, as should the House of Lords. That process is particularly important because these orders are not amendable and so we ought to ensure that we have a proper process in place before we reach the Report stage—I do not see how we can consider matters on Report until that has been done.

[Angela Smith]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent case about the lack of proper consultation and process on these proposals. If we had had such a thorough consultation and procedure in this place it would have allowed us to consider not only the principles but the various costs of holding the referendum, whether or not it be on the same day as the other polls. That is a very important principle in the context of last week’s spending review.

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One sadness about the way in which the business ends up having to be transacted today is that because the Government have constructed this in the form of a new clause with four new schedules attendant upon it, the votes on the schedules will be separated from the votes on the new clause—unless, Ms Primarolo, you are going to allow us to proceed in a slightly different way from how these matters are normally conducted. I understand that we will end up having a debate on new clause 7 before we proceed to votes on the new schedules, rather than having a separate debate on the new schedules. That is precisely because of how the Government have constructed their approach to the amendments.

It is also worth pointing out that the Government have not put minor amendments before us today. New schedule 2, which refers to England, is 35 pages long, as is new schedule 3, which relates to Wales. New schedule 4 is 37 pages long—Scotland gets rather more than Wales or England—and new schedule 5, on Northern Ireland, is just 19 pages long. I presume that the Minister’s final throwaway comments on postal voting in Northern Ireland, which he made swiftly at the end of his speech, are why the number of pages on Northern Ireland is substantially smaller than the number on Scotland and Wales, and that he intends to introduce significant amendments at a later stage. Obviously, I do not believe that that should be next week—I think it should be once the statutory instruments have been considered and, if necessary, approved. However, that is all the more reason for us to ensure that the Northern Ireland statutory instrument is debated on the Floor of the House before Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

I can see why my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was confused and tried to intervene on the hon. Gentleman. That was a very lengthy intervention, almost worthy of a speech.

We have made considerable provision for debate, and when the Government provide extra time, the Committee needs to debate a Bill sensibly. To be fair, most Members have done so, but I cannot help but observe that most of the extra time that we added for the past couple of days was almost entirely used up by the hon. Member for Rhondda. Rather than comment, I will let Members judge for themselves whether he used that time well.

[Angela Smith]

However much time the Government give the Bill on the Floor of the House, it will not make up for the lack of the pre-legislative scrutiny that it should have had.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) dealt with that point very well in his intervention. As my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House has said, if there was pre-legislative scrutiny of everything at the beginning of a new Parliament, with a new Government having been elected, there would be a huge gap in the programme. He has made it clear that taking the Government’s programme as a whole, we will almost certainly end up allowing more scrutiny of draft Bills than any previous Government.

[Angela Smith]

With respect, is not a Bill relating to constitutional reform of such significance that the Government should have waited and gone through a pre-legislative scrutiny process before bringing it to the House?

[Mr Harper]

All that I can say is that we can examine the comparative records. In the last Session under the Labour Government only four Bills had pre-legislative scrutiny. We will end up with twice as many, so our overall record will bear comparison.

I am not sure whether he meant it, but the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) accused us of putting the horse before the cart and proceeding at a gallop. I represent a rural area, so I think I have got this right: putting the horse before the cart seems to be the right thing to do, as does proceeding at a gallop. I do not see any problem with that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angela Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 15th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting suggestion. Bill Bryson has made this suggestion to me as well because of the success that schemes like this have had in other countries. I will certainly ask his right hon. Friend the Energy and Climate Change Secretary to look at this issue and see if we can take it forward.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Q8. Back in June, Andrew Cook boasted that he was the largest donor to the Conservative party in Yorkshire, yet it turns out that his registered main residence is on the island of Guernsey. Can the Prime Minister assure the House that when he accepted free plane flights from Andrew Cook, he did so having satisfied himself that such a donation was both legally and morally acceptable?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously it is up to every party leader to make sure that when they accept a donation they make proper checks and do so in the proper way. All the donations that the Conservative party has received are properly set out with the Electoral Commission and other bodies, and we do everything we can to make sure they are accurate; I hope that the Labour party does the same thing.