Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Jeremy Hunt Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

We have had excellent speeches this afternoon from the majority of Members, who chose not to be partisan but to try to find a constructive way forward so that we can address the problems. Time is short, but I should like to mention some of the excellent contributions made. I start with the superb contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale). This is the moment for the whole House to recognise his superb chairmanship of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. He is probably the hon. Member who, of all of us, has done the most in recent weeks to restore the reputation of Parliament to its proper place. He made an important contribution; in particular, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), he urged News International to co-operate in releasing the files that are with Harbottle & Lewis, so that the investigation can proceed to its proper destination.

[Mr Whittingdale]

I am almost embarrassed by the Secretary of State’s praise. I would only say that Select Committees operate as a team, and I am fortunate to have a very strong team on our Select Committee.

[Mr Hunt]

We have more independent Select Committees in this Parliament, thanks to the decisions taken by this Government, and that has been shown to have been absolutely the right thing to do. [Interruption.] Will hon. Members let me proceed, please? My hon. Friend raised the important question of whether politicians should be removed from future decisions on media plurality. There is a difficult tension, because those decisions need to be impartial, and they need to be seen to be impartial. In recent months we have found how very difficult that is, whatever independent reports one gets, and however much we follow independent advice from independent regulators. We need to look at how we get the balance right between the accountability of elected officials and making sure that impartial decisions are seen to be made.

I pay credit to the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who has done an excellent job and produced today an excellent but very disturbing report, which talks of a catalogue of failures by the Metropolitan police. What he said about the importance of Sue Akers having all the support that she needs to deal with this very important investigation is absolutely right. He will be reassured by the letter that he has just received, which he kindly showed to me and the Prime Minister, in which Sue Akers says that she has increased the number of officers and staff on the case to 60; that is one of the biggest investigations in the country, and she is constantly reviewing the support that she needs. The whole House will have been slightly amused by the right hon. Gentleman’s comment that the breach of security in the other Committee yesterday may have been the result of police officers appearing before his Select Committee.

An excellent contribution was made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox). He made a compelling case, and the Prime Minister said to me in the Tea Room shortly afterwards that every time my hon. and learned Friend speaks, the House of Commons gets thousands of pounds-worth of free legal advice. He made a very important point: it appears that in 2006 the Attorney-General may have known about what my hon. and learned Friend described as a vast array of offending material. His case was powerfully backed up by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), who also talked about the potentially inaccurate legal advice given by the Crown Prosecution Service. Those are all things that the inquiry will look into in great detail.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) made an important point about understanding, when making any changes to media regulation, that we are in a new media age, and that it is no longer relevant to look at the concentration of power in only one particular platform or type of media; we have to look at how that power extends across different platforms—a point echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) and the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann)—I hope I pronounced that last place correctly.

Among a number of important points, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark talked about the “fit and proper person” test. I can confirm that Ofcom applies that test continuously and assiduously. It ruled on a company called Bang Media in November 2010. But I accept that one of the lessons of what has happened in recent weeks is the need for more transparency about how the test is applied, so that the public can have confidence in how it operates. Like the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), my right hon. Friend made an important point about the necessity to stamp out completely the whole business of police tip-offs and pay-outs, which has concerned so many people as the issues have arisen.

The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) returned to the question that the Prime Minister addressed continually in his earlier statement about whether there had been discussions about the BSkyB deal. The discussions that the Prime Minister had about the BSkyB deal were irrelevant. They were irrelevant because the person who had the responsibility—[Interruption.] If hon. Members will listen, I will answer the question. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Members can try to intervene, but the Secretary of State has the floor.

[Mr Hunt]

They were irrelevant because the person who was making the decision was myself, and I was making it on my own. This was not a matter of collective responsibility. This was a quasi-judicial process. I wish I could take more decisions completely on my own without any reference to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor or other Cabinet colleagues. This is the only such decision I have ever been privileged to make.

[Steve McCabe]

I do not believe that any discussion that the Prime Minister has is irrelevant. But is the right hon. Gentleman confirming that the Prime Minister did have discussions about BSkyB, and will he tell us who he had them with and what they were about?

[Mr Hunt]

I will confirm that the Prime Minister had no inappropriate conversations with Rebekah Brooks at any time.

[Mr Ivan Lewis]

With respect to the Secretary of State, it is never a good idea to contradict the Prime Minister, especially when he is sitting next to you. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the Prime Minister publishes all the details of the discussions that took place with regard to BSkyB, so that the House can make a judgment about the transparency and independence of the process?

[Mr Hunt]

Will the shadow Culture Secretary be good enough to publish all his conversations with News International about the BSkyB deal? The Opposition should show some transparency, following the example that the Government have set.

The right hon. Member for Blackburn made an important point, echoed by a number of hon. Members, that it is possible to find a system of regulation that is independent and that has teeth. It is not an either/or choice between statutory regulation and self-regulation. There are many combinations used in other professions that can be looked at as models. The important thing is the independence of the regulation.

[Mr Straw]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his endorsement of what I was saying about press regulation. May I take him back to an important statement that he made a moment ago, when he said that none of the discussions that the Prime Minister had had about BSkyB were relevant because he himself—the Culture Secretary—was making the decision? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that this is the first occasion in the course of a six-hour debate when there has been any admission that the Prime Minister had had any discussions whatsoever about BskyB? Would it not be for the House to judge whether those were relevant or not?

[Mr Hunt]

The Prime Minister has said over and over again that there were no inappropriate discussions.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) said, any considerations of plurality and revisions to the law on concentration of media ownership need to include the BBC, because it is such a major force in broadcasting. That is something that many of my hon. Friends will—

[Sir Gerald Kaufman]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for a speaker at the Government Dispatch Box to say one thing at one moment and two minutes later totally deny that he said it?

[Mr Speaker]

I am afraid I must say that it is in order, and that it has in fact been happening for hundreds of years.

[Mr Hunt]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) made some very partisan points about the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, but completely failed to mention that the Prime Minister’s chief of staff was acting on the advice of the permanent secretary at No. 10—the most senior permanent secretary in Whitehall. The right hon. Gentleman shared with the House the fact that he was in the Oxford university Labour club with Rupert Murdoch, who was apparently expelled for breaking campaign rules. I am surprised the right hon. Gentleman has not considered referring that to Ofcom under the “fit and proper person” regulations.

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who has played an important role in the campaign, talked about responsibility for what happens inside corporations —a point echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe. After yesterday’s evidence, many people had questions about how an organisation such as News Corporation could allow such things to happen without the knowledge of the people at the very top. I do not want to prejudge the inquiry, but there are further questions to be answered on that front.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

Time is short, and I need to make some progress.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath made an interesting point about the plurality rules in respect of drama and comedy. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) made a moving speech and said that the ultimate test of our success as a Parliament—a political class—in getting this right will be whether there is justice for the family of Milly Dowler. Many people would agree.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an important point about the need for social responsibility in the press. Sadly I did not hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), but I note that he said The Times had supported his leadership bid. In the spirit of transparency I am delighted that he shared that information with the House.

[Barry Gardiner]

rose—

[Angela Smith]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I want to make some progress, because I want to mention all the excellent comments we have heard, including those of the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) about making sure that we do not have the nexus between the police and media organisations that seems to have emerged. Many people feel that it is extremely unhealthy.

We heard good points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma). The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) talked about the concentration of media power. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) expressed a view shared by many of my hon. Friends: yes, we need to sort out the problem, but we also need to move on and sort out other problems that are of great concern to our constituents.

We heard excellent contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald), for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), for Bedford (Richard Fuller), for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) and for Stourbridge (Margot James), and the hon. Members for Bassetlaw (John Mann), for Eltham (Clive Efford), for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). I am sorry that I do not have time to talk about all those contributions.

In conclusion, we all know that there are lessons to be learned, but there has been a huge contrast between the intelligent contributions made by many Members and the attempt by Members on the Opposition Front Bench to secure partisan advantage. The problem was not just ignored by Labour in office, it was made a great deal worse, yet listening to Opposition Front-Bench speakers we could be forgiven for thinking that phone hacking happened only under this Government, when it took place under their Government. We could be forgiven for thinking that Labour politicians had never even heard of News Corporation, Rupert Murdoch or Rebekah Brooks, and for believing that it would be inconceivable for an ex-News International employee to work in the office of the leader of the Labour party.

We can all ask ourselves why so little was done, but Opposition Members, too, need to ask those questions. There has not been a spirit of humility. For example, there was no recognition of the fact that in yesterday’s evidence, Rupert Murdoch said that the Prime Minister with whom he had the closest friendship—his wife and the Prime Minister’s wife were also friends—was not the current Prime Minister but the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). It was not just the former Prime Minister, but his predecessor.

Labour Front Benchers fail to understand that when they make partisan attacks, the public will hold them to account for their record—including the Leader of the Opposition, who was a member of the Cabinet that decided to do nothing about phone hacking, and a member of the Government who failed to reform the press despite repeated warnings. He criticised the Prime Minister for ignoring warnings, but how many warnings did he himself ignore?