Prison Media Bill

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Katherine Fletcher]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert, for the very first time and to propose legislation to the House. Let’s get to it.

The Prison Media Bill tackles the serious, real-world harm caused by photos, videos and other media created of the inside of prisons and of prison staff and uploaded to social media and websites. We have seen that content used to intimidate and harass victims of crime, prison workers and their families, causing significant distress, and to facilitate continued criminality in both prisons and the community, including drug supply, violence and gang feuds. Given the severe consequences for the safety and wellbeing of victims of crime and prison staff, it is unacceptable that such prison content should be allowed to remain online.

This important Bill will strengthen section 40D of the Prison Act 1952 to ensure the removal of such photos and videos from online platforms and to reduce their harms. It will also discourage individuals from making and uploading the content in the first place, updating legislation passed in the 1950s—very much in the absence of modern social media. The Bill will achieve that by closing existing loopholes, making the uploading of unauthorised prison content illegal regardless of whether it has been uploaded from the prison or the community. It will also make it clear beyond doubt that it is illegal to film the inside of a prison from the outside, for example by drone. Importantly, it will also make it illegal to film staff on prison land.

I am grateful for the service of the prison officers who work in the two prisons in the South Ribble constituency, HMP Garth and HMP Wymott. They do a caring and brave job, day after day. The important measures in the Bill will protect their right not to be intimidated or harassed while going to work and will stop that activity, especially where it facilitates continued criminality. Together, those changes will provide social media companies with the clarity they need that such content has been unlawfully uploaded and must therefore be removed.

With that background in mind, I turn to the clauses in the Bill, as well as the amendments and new clause 1.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Before my hon. Friend goes into the detail, she mentioned section 40D of the Prison Act 1952, which already contains provisions to prohibit mobile phones from being allowed inside prisons. Perhaps we should make it clear that it is already illegal to have a mobile phone there. Am I right in understanding that the Bill will mean that anybody who is on prison grounds or grounds surrounding a prison who films is also committing a criminal act and can be sentenced in a magistrates court or Crown court?

[Katherine Fletcher]

As usual, and as his service as a magistrate shows, my hon. Friend is quite right. It is illegal to have a mobile phone in a prison estate at the moment, and it is potentially punishable with an additional two years of sentence. The Bill strikes the right balance between preventing criminality, in terms of filming prison officers and providing protections, which I will turn to, for people who happen to live close to a prison, such as those in Ulnes Walton.

We are aware that, while it is illegal to have a phone in prison—from legislation from the 1950s, prior to the social media age—it does happen occasionally, and there is a worrying increase in media being uploaded outside of the prison estate by members of the community for various nefarious means, which I have set out. The figures in the briefing pack show that there have been about 2,000 such incidents in the last three years, so it is important that we have the legislative powers to prevent it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Edward Argar)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. I add my wholehearted support to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble for introducing this hugely important Bill. She has handled today’s proceedings and presented her case with aplomb, elegance and eloquence, as though she had done this 100 times already, so I pay tribute to her for that. It has been a pleasure to work with her on this Bill. It is a testament to her determination to get things done that she has brought it this far. Her South Ribble constituents are very lucky to have her.

As the Minister for prisons, parole and probation, it is central to my role to help to protect the public from serious offenders and improve the safety and security of our prisons. The Prison Media Bill will help us to achieve those core priorities by demonstrating a zero-tolerance approach to social media misuse from within custody. Like my hon. Friend, I put on record my gratitude to all those who work in His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service for the work they do day in, day out to keep people safe.

I also put on record my gratitude for the contributions today, including from my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South. In this place—this is not always the case with all colleagues—on matters of justice, he knows of what he speaks, with his strong track record as a magistrate and in this House, so it is always interesting and instructive to listen to his contributions.

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield, who rightly highlighted a very distressing case, which he and I have discussed. He has been diligent and dogged in his pursuit of his constituent’s interests in this matter. As with my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble, his constituents are equally very lucky to have him.

The Bill strengthens existing legislation, specifically the Prison Act 1952, on the unauthorised creation and uploading of digital media, including photographs and videos created inside prisons, or of the inside of prisons from outside—for example, by drone. Deterring individuals from uploading videos and photographs and removing from social media those that are uploaded is crucial. The content can cause very serious harm. It can be used to harass and cause distress to victims of crime and their families, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield highlighted, thereby re-traumatising them. It can facilitate continued criminality, which extends beyond prison walls into the community, including drug supply, violence and gang feuds. Videos taken from above prisons by drone can also cause serious security risks.

As well as videos and photos created inside prison, the Bill tackles, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble said, so-called audit style videos, where members of the public film prison staff from outside a prison, threatening the safety of hard-working prison workers. We are not talking about a couple of cases: last year, HMPPS reported 890 pieces of harmful prison content found online, and between 2020 and 2023, it reported nearly 2,000 uploads. The reality is that that probably under-represents the true scale of the problem as those figures are just for reported incidents. That is why, in clause 1, it is hugely important that the statutory maximum limit for fines on summary conviction is effectively removed, aiming to ensure that the offences can be punished by a fine of any amount, reflecting their seriousness.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble for working so closely with my officials to amend the Bill to extend it to Scotland and Northern Ireland through new clauses 1 to 3 and amendments 11 to 17 and 19. As initially drafted, the measures would apply only in England and Wales. However, as she highlighted, harmful digital content is not constrained by the borders within our United Kingdom, so extending the Bill’s coverage will better protect victims from distressing content created by their perpetrators inside prison, as well as bolstering prison security and the safety of prison officers across all nations in the UK.

My officials, like my hon. Friend, have worked closely with officials in the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that the provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly are consistent and compatible with existing devolved offences, and that the Bill’s provisions will function effectively within those jurisdictions. I, too, put on record my gratitude for the co-operation of Ministers and officials in the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, particularly for the speed with which they have looked at the matter and given their support in principle to extending the Bill in respect of those devolved offences. Again, I suspect an element of that is testament to the persuasiveness of my hon. Friend.

I am also grateful to my hon. Friend for tabling amendments 1 to 10, intended, first, to avoid criminalising behaviour that is not necessary or appropriate to criminalise; and secondly, to ensure internal consistency between measures in the Bill and external consistency with existing offences. The changes are designed to ensure that the Bill functions effectively and that provisions do not capture legitimate content, as she said, such as recording by neighbouring residents of a prison or someone’s dashcam capturing the inside of an open prison from a car driving past.

[Andy Carter]

The Minister mentioned the 2,000 or so cases, over a couple of years, where material has been posted online. What action has been taken to remove that material? Are social media companies working with His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service to ensure that it is taken down in a timely manner, that prison officers are protected, and in particular that their identities are not disclosed in a way that could cause them danger?

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, not least because he gave me the opportunity to have a glass of water. He is right to raise that point. The figures reflect reported incidents, so the number may well be higher. I met social media companies relatively recently to discuss this matter. They are improving in both speed and in taking things down, but one challenge is often that each social media company has its own rules, guidelines and approach to tackling harmful content, so there is not always a consistent policy approach by each one. Some—I will not name them—have engaged constructively, while others are more challenging to work with. However, across all of them, there is a recognition of this, and the Bill will further reinforce the sense of obligation upon them.

In closing, I reiterate my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble for bringing forward this hugely important piece of legislation and confirm the Government’s continuing support for it as amended, subject to the Committee’s decisions. The Bill will enable us to tackle the issue of harmful prison media being uploaded online. It will allow us to disrupt the continued criminality that that fuels. It will reduce distress caused to members of the public, bolster prison security and ensure that prison staff can go to work without fear of online targeting and harassment. I am pleased to support my hon. Friend in that endeavour.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Amendment made: 2, in clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert—

“(2A) After subsection (1) insert—

‘(1A) For the purposes of subsection (1)(a)—

(a) a photograph taken outside a prison of an image which is being transmitted from inside the prison by electronic communications for simultaneous reception outside the prison is to be treated as a photograph taken inside the prison, and

(b) a sound-recording made outside a prison of sounds which are being transmitted by electronic communications from inside the prison for simultaneous reception outside the prison is to be treated as a sound-recording made inside the prison.’

(2B) Omit subsection (2).

(2C) After subsection (4) insert—

‘(4A) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (1)(aa) it is a defence for the accused to show that they did not know and had no reasonable cause to believe that the photograph was of the inside of a prison.’”—(Katherine Fletcher.)

This amendment clarifies that taking a photograph or making a sound-recording of material transmitted from inside a prison is covered by the existing offence in section 40D(1)(a) of the Prison Act 1952. It also provides a defence in relation to the offence in section 40(D(1)(aa) of that Act.

Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Unauthorised photographs and sound-recordings of prisons and prison workers

Courts (Remote Hearings) Bill

Andy Carter Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider clause 2 stand part.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to see my constituency neighbour in the Chair, Mr Twigg. I propose to deal with clauses 1 and 2 together, and I promise hon. Members that we will be done within the six hours allotted.

This modest but important Bill amends current legislation to enable defendants and debtors in specific types of cases heard in the magistrates court or the county or family courts to be able to appear remotely via a live audio or video link. The use of remote links of this type is relatively common and is already used in civil, family and criminal jurisdictions, delivering significant benefits not only through swifter access to justice, but by utilising the court estate efficiently. As a result of the Bill, two categories of cases will be able to be heard remotely. This means that those in breach of some injunctions and orders in the county and family courts, as well as persistent defaulters on orders to pay either council tax or business rates, will be able to appear remotely.

The ability to appear remotely is especially important, as in many cases, defendants must be physically brought before the courts within 24 hours of their arrest for breach of these civil injunctions. Sometimes, that is not possible. Defendants may be arrested out of hours, and court facilities may be some distance away, and all the while the clock is running down.

This Bill addresses those points. People who are arrested for those breaches will now be able to appear remotely, as will defaulters. However, remote does not mean a lesser degree of access to justice. The courts recognise that a remote hearing is no less capable in principle of being fair than a hearing at which all parties are physically present. That has been affirmed by the evaluation by His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service of remote hearings during the recent covid pandemic. Importantly, the Bill does not mandate remote hearings. The ultimate determination will be by the judge or magistrate, who will make their ruling after hearing from the parties and taking into consideration the availability of facilities for such hearings.

With that background in mind, I turn to the clauses. Clause 1(1) sets out the required legislative changes. These include an amendment to section 47 of the Family Law Act 1996 on arrest for breach of order. Clause 1(1) inserts proposed new subsection (13), which provides that the defendant may appear before the court either by way of live audio or video link. Clause 1(2) amends section 9 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 on arrest without warrant. It inserts proposed new subsection (7), which provides that the defendant may appear before the court either by way of live audio or video link.

Clause 1(3) amends section 43 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009 on arrest without warrant. It inserts proposed new subsection (8), which provides that the defendant may appear before the court by live audio or video link. Clause 1(4) amends paragraph 8(1A) of schedule 4 to the Local Government Finance Act 1992 on enforcement in England and Wales. It inserts proposed new sub-paragraph (b), which states that regulations may provide that the debtor, subject to an application under paragraph 8(1A), may appear before the court either by way of live audio or video link.

Clause 1 sets out the necessary changes to legislation so that a defendant or a debtor, in certain circumstances, can appear before a court by live link. These changes ensure that individuals who are arrested for breaching certain family court or county court injunctions, or who persistently fail to pay business rates or council tax, can appear before the court in a timely and efficient manner using remote links.

[Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing this important Bill. Can he confirm that a remote hearing will be of benefit in domestic abuse cases? It is really important that domestic abuse cases are heard in this way, because it provides a critical lifeline as a safe, accessible platform for survivors to seek justice and removes the burden of a physical court appearance. The digital approach ensures confidentiality and reduces the risk of intimidation, empowering victims to speak up and access legal recourse swiftly and securely.

[Andy Carter]

It is clear that courts, particularly the magistrates court, already make full use of digital means. The Bill will benefit those suffering from domestic abuse, particularly where restraining orders and non-molestation orders are in place to keep somebody who has committed domestic abuse away from the victim. In the event that someone is arrested on a weekend, say, a Saturday morning, and there is a 24-hour time limit in which they can be held, they may well be released because the court does not sit before Monday, and they cannot appear before court in that time. Once released, they could cause more problems for the victim of domestic abuse. The Bill will mean that that person could appear before a judge and the judge could remand them or take other steps to ensure that the victim is protected. My hon. Friend is right to raise that point.

Under clause 1, defendants or debtors will have a hearing within the mandated period of 24 hours or will have to be released by the police in the case of those who are in breach of an injunction, as I have just said to my hon. Friend. In doing so, we are ensuring that the rule of law is upheld and that we provide for better and more timely access to justice. Public safety is also enhanced by ensuring that dangerous individuals—in the case of breaches of injunctions—are not released for want of finding a court or member of the judiciary out of court hours.

The use of remote links in court proceedings is relatively common. As a magistrate, I sit on a regular basis on remote court hearings, and there is no negative impact on ensuring that justice is delivered. In fact, I would argue that it delivers significant benefits. This provision will provide greater flexibility at judicial discretion where appropriate. Most importantly, it does not mandate that remote links must be used. Access to justice is not curtailed. The defendant will be able to make representations to the judge, and the safeguards of access to legal representatives remain in place.

Clause 2(1) provides that the Bill will come into force at the end of the period of two months following Royal Assent. Subsection (2) sets out that the Bill may be referred to as the Courts (Remote Hearings) Act 2024. This clause establishes the timing for the Bill to become law once its passage through this House is completed. There is nothing controversial in these arrangements. I commend the Bill to the Committee.

[Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I am aware that the hon. Member for Warrington South is a magistrate. I have served as a justice of the peace in Scotland and am aware of the implications of the Bill. I see no negative sides to it. Although the Bill does not extend to Scotland, its provisions appear eminently sensible and will only assist in the timely, flexible and efficient administration of justice in appropriate cases. Therefore, the Bill has my full support.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

I am not a lawyer or solicitor or magistrate, but I am interested in this, because the administration of justice in places like Somerset is few and far between. The nearest court we have is in Taunton, meaning all my constituents must travel there, so I understand the provision for video links, but I have some questions about it. First, if somebody misbehaves on the video link, they cannot be reprimanded for contempt or anything else. I am interested to know what will then happen. Are they brought to a court for proceedings to take place in person?

Secondly, what is the procedure for defendants on video links whose first language is not English? I have done enough international conferences with a language barrier, as I am sure my hon. Friends have, to know how difficult that is. Thirdly, the explanatory note says that the use of video links is

“common in civil and family proceedings. In those proceedings, the appearance of a defendant by remote link is permitted at the direction of the court, including cases of far greater sensitivity or gravity.”

What is “greater sensitivity or gravity”? The Minister mentioned it, but I am interested in what that pertains to. I think that is important.

Fourthly, when a video link is used, is the solicitor in the court, or are they on the video link? We all want representation. In Somerset, the remand centre is in Bridgwater and the court is in Taunton. This Bill is eminently sensible and I agree with it, but I am wondering about the practicalities of making sure that someone can exercise their right to justice and to be represented. I am wondering what the mechanism for that is.

I am also concerned about intimidation. If someone is on remand and appearing via video link, there are other people around them—not in the room, probably. One of the great things about being in a court is that the person is in the court. They are part of court proceedings, with court officials and court people. If they are elsewhere, there is potential for intimidation. What if somebody appearing in court is on remand? Someone else has had a go at them, because there is also somebody else in these places. Are we absolutely sure that people are not going to be put under undue pressure to appear on the video link?

Finally, on the video link, will officials—in other words, police and others—be in the room with the defendant? What is the mechanism for making sure that there are suitable people in the room should the person decide to have a hissy fit or otherwise?

[Andy Carter]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset for being part of this Bill Committee and for his questions, which are eminently sensible. I preface my remarks by saying that remote justice is frequently already used in the courts. In fact, in many cases, particularly for those on remand, there is a preference for remote hearings, because if someone is being held on remand in prison, remote hearings mean that they do not have to leave the prison, go to court, take all their belongings with them and risk being taken back to a different prison. They can stay in their prison and attend the court via video link. It is regularly used.

My hon. Friend raised questions about contempt. The judge or magistrate treat an individual attending on a remote link as being part of the court. If they misbehave, the sanctions for contempt are exactly the same as they would be if the individual were present in the courtroom.

The same is true for non-English-speaking attendees. There is a facility to ensure that anybody who needs an interpreter can access one. That is at the discretion of the judge. In my experience as a serving magistrate, one becomes very aware very quickly if someone does not understand proceedings and one ensures that an appropriate interpreter is put in place.

My hon. Friend made a good point about solicitors. In many cases, duty solicitors will be in the court, but they have an opportunity to speak to the defendant or the debtor online prior to the court hearing, although in some cases it may be that the defendant is with the individual in the centre where the video link is taking place.

I think the point my hon. Friend made about intimidation and officials is important. By its very nature, it is a remote hearing, and the individual is somewhat remote from the court premises, but magistrates and judges are very used to ensuring that people who are participating remotely on video or telephone links are brought into court and understand fully. One of the things I have learned as a magistrate is that we go over the top to explain what is going on to somebody who is not in the court. I would therefore say to my hon. Friend that magistrates and judges are used to dealing with defendants and debtors who are on a video link, and they take every step to ensure that court proceedings fully include those individuals. I hope that answers his questions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Gareth Bacon)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I promise not to detain the Committee for much longer, but I want to lend my wholehearted support to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South for introducing the Bill.

As my hon. Friend set out, the Bill extends the availability of remote hearings in two instances where individuals have been arrested and detained in police custody. The first is for defendants in claims for breach of the terms of certain antisocial injunctions or certain family orders. The second is for a failure to pay either council tax or business rates. Those hearings could be conducted remotely from a custody suite, whereas at present they must be heard in person. The decision to hold a remote hearing will be set at the discretion of the judge after considering the representations of all parties. To be clear, in-person hearings will still take place if that is necessary.

Hon. Members will be reassured that despite the new powers, the number of hearings in either type of case is not expected to rise and charging decisions are independent of the availability of the court. The changes will establish important safeguards for the public and give magistrates, county and family courts greater flexibility and efficiency. That will enhance public safety.

Remote hearings mean that potentially violent individuals, such as those arrested for breaches of injunctions to protect the victims of domestic abuse, can be quickly and efficiently dealt with. Current arrangements mean that those defendants must be produced physically in court within 24 hours of arrest and the lack of court premises or judicial capacity, for example at the weekend, would result in their release back into the general population. That is something we are trying to avoid.

In closing, I reiterate my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South for introducing this important Bill, and I can confirm the Government’s support for it. I also want to thank the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock for his support and my hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Bridgwater and West Somerset for their questions. I thank all hon. Members for their attendance this morning. This modest Bill provides remote hearings only when necessary and adds to the flexibility of the ways the courts operate without compromising any of the safeguards of our justice system.

[Andy Carter]

May I conclude by thanking the Minister for his comments and for the support of the Government? He is absolutely correct in what he says: this short Bill will broaden the situations in which defendants can join court proceedings via audio or video link.

The Bill will specifically mean that breaches of non-molestation orders, occupation orders, antisocial behaviour injunctions and gang-related violence or drug-dealing injunctions can be heard remotely. That is particularly helpful for situations where someone is arrested and held at a time when a court is not sitting, such as a Sunday or a public holiday, when the clock is running down and individuals can only be held for 24 hours. It will also mean that secondary legislation can require that where someone has defaulted on an order to pay either their council tax or business rates, they can join a hearing remotely regarding their non-payment.

I conclude by saying that I am extremely grateful to all colleagues for attending this sitting and for the cross-party support that I have received. As the Minister said, we can now get on and make our courts more efficient.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill to be reported without amendment.

End of Custody Supervised Licence: Extension

Andy Carter Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady. As I said to the shadow Secretary of State, I have great respect for the work done by those in our probation service. Indeed, I have met the probation unions in the past. Although we do not always agree, I have huge respect for the work those unions do in representing their members.

I would make two points. First, to say that it was done without scrutiny in this House stretches the bounds of credibility. There have been two statements by the Secretary of State and multiple oral parliamentary question sessions, and I have undergone a polite but thorough grilling at the Justice Committee by its Chair. I do not think it stacks up to say that this has not been subject to scrutiny.

On the hon. Lady’s underlying point, I set out earlier that we are investing in probation. There is £155 million of additional investment a year since 2021 and there are 4,000 more probation officers and staff in training.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

A moment ago, the Minister set out the significant increase in the number of people being held on remand—I think he said it had increased from 9,000 to 16,000. What work are the Government doing to address court backlogs? What steps are being taken to look at other routes for monitoring people who are on remand, who could perhaps serve their remand period in the community under a tagging system?

[Edward Argar]

To correct myself, there are now 16,500 people on remand in the prison population. On court backlogs, we have increased the investment in our courts and the number of sitting days, and we are seeing progress. Obviously, courts take the decision on whether to remand or bail someone, and we can help that process by giving the courts the information they need. We continue to invest in the Bail Information Service, which gives sentencers reassurance about the information they need to make a judgment call about whether someone is safe to be bailed. We are increasing our investment in the community accommodation service, so that when someone is not bailed because they do not have a stable address, there is an increased opportunity for them to have an address, giving sentencers the opportunity to bail them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andy Carter Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Alex Chalk]

The senior presiding judge will keep a close eye on regional discrepancies. In certain cases, there is the power to transfer them from one court to another, but that will depend on the suitability for defendants, and witnesses and victims who need to attend hearings. It is important that we send the message from this Chamber that more than 90% of all criminal trials—the cases that people want resolved such as criminal damage, drugs matters and common assault—are dealt with in magistrates courts, and magistrates up and down our country are doing an excellent job at getting through those cases.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I absolutely endorse the Lord Chancellor’s comments on magistrates working incredibly hard to clear backlogs in courts. He will have seen recent journalistic reporting relating to single justice procedure, which is an important element of magistrates’ work. The principle behind the single justice procedure is good, and I have sat on cases in SJP courts, but there are some concerns, in particular around vulnerable individuals who may have mitigation that is not necessarily being addressed. Does he agree that perhaps he could remind Members that magistrates can already use their discretion to refer cases back to open court, where prosecutors can review cases to ensure that individuals who are vulnerable are not served with un-justice?

Sentencing Bill

Andy Carter Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I will be relatively brief. As a member of the magistracy who spends time sentencing—in fact, I was sentencing last week on a whole range of issues that come before the Merseyside bench—I am acutely aware that the British public, including my constituents, want to ensure that the criminal justice system is fair and proportionate and fair to victims as a principal concern. Today we are debating a Bill that will strengthen those principles by making sure that the most serious offenders receive tougher sentences that reflect the severity of their crimes. The Bill will remove from society those who pose the greatest danger to the public while also reducing the rate of reoffending by lower-risk criminals.

Too often, I see familiar faces in the courtroom and I want the Government to do much more to take steps to break the cycle of reoffending. That is not just a matter for the criminal justice system; it is for every part of the Government, in particular the Departments for Work and Pensions and for Education. We can do much more to break the cycle.

The Bill introduces a presumption that sentences under 12 months will be suspended, punishing and rehabilitating offenders by using technology to deliver and enforce tough curfews and work in the community, where they can begin to repay their debt to society. Of all the announced measures, the presumption against an immediate short-term custodial sentence in favour of a suspended sentence or community order is particularly relevant in magistrates courts. As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) said just a moment ago, that is essentially the approach that we already take in the magistrates court, where, even if the custody threshold for an offence is exceeded, the practice is for magistrates to consider in the first instance whether a suspended sentence or community order would be far more appropriate.

Magistrates consider a range of facts and sentencing, and they do not sentence in an isolated form. The first thing they do is look at the antecedents of the criminal before them. If that criminal has a long list of previous convictions, they are more likely to go back to prison because that is the way magistrates operate in their courts. Magistrates follow very detailed sentencing guidelines. They work tirelessly to ensure that there is consistency across all courts and to consider the statutory aggravating and mitigating factors, and they look carefully to ensure that the punishment fits the crime. However, it is important that magistrates retain the discretion for immediate custody if neither a suspended sentence nor a community order is suitable. I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor is aware of that.

I will conclude by touching on two other brief points. First, on prison capacity, I recognise the importance of extending the prison estate, and the Minister has very kindly notified me that Thorn Cross Prison in my constituency is likely to see an increase of 76 prisoners as a result of the increased use of rapid deployment cells once planning permission has been granted. Can the Minister confirm that an appropriate increase in staffing will follow? That prison has had significant issues with drugs being delivered into it. When the Lord Chancellor was prisons Minister, he spent time meeting my constituents to consider that particular area. Can the Department confirm that the relevant experienced prison officers will come alongside the additional prisoners?

Can the Minister also confirm that there will be no change in the type of prisoners that are held there? There had been discussions about holding sex offenders who are coming to the end of their sentences, but it was then decided that that would not happen. The prison is in very close proximity to a school, so I would be very grateful if the Minister ensured that that does not happen.

I welcome the provisions in the Bill, which will put public protection at the heart of sentencing. The Government are taking an evidence-based, long-term approach to sentencing to ensure that we are tough on violent crime, committed to reducing reoffending, and doing what is needed to keep the public safe.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)]

I call the Opposition Front Bencher.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andy Carter Excerpts

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

T3.   One of the primary reasons for adjournment and relisting in magistrates courts is a lack of trained probation officers to carry out pre-sentence stand-down reports. Could the Minister outline what steps he is taking to address this so that courts can get through caseloads more speedily?

[Alex Chalk]

My hon. Friend speaks with great authority as a magistrate, and I know from my own experience as a practitioner how important stand-down reports are. They provide the bench with information about the offender—their relationship situation, their record of previous convictions, their mental health problems and so on—so that the court can tailor a disposal that punishes the offender but also progresses their rehabilitation. We are working closely with the probation service to ensure that that resource is properly allocated so that we can have more stand-down reports to ensure better justice on the facts of each case.

Prison Capacity

Andy Carter Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Alex Chalk]

No, that is wrong. The first part—that this is an idea whose time has come—is correct. I spoke about this when I was a Back Bencher in a speech at the Conservative party conference, of all places. I have come to this as a realisation for some time. What is encouraging is that the Government are putting enormous additional resource into the probation service, because I reckon that it is ultimately critical to the success of community orders; it does a phenomenal job. We are putting more resources in and recruiting more, and we will do everything we can to strengthen the system.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

My right hon. and learned Friend knows that magistrates think carefully before they commit anybody to custody, because they know that once somebody is sent to prison for a short sentence, their life can spiral downwards very quickly: they can lose their home, their job and, often, their family. Does he agree that more robust community sentences are needed, particularly in relation to drug rehabilitation, which is the root cause of so much offending? Will he set out what steps he is taking to ensure that those on community sentences are suitably supervised?

[Alex Chalk]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. His observation that magistrates do all they can to avoid sending someone to custody and do so only when absolutely necessary was well made. The reason why this reform will be so important is that under a suspended sentence order, the magistrates are saying in effect to that individual, “You must engage in a sensible and productive way with drug rehabilitation. If you don’t, you will go to prison.” That provides the most powerful incentive for that individual to break the cycle of offending while not locking them up, which, as my hon. Friend indicated, would mean they could lose their universal credit, not get the mental health treatment they require and break the family relationships that can be so important to keeping people away from crime.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andy Carter Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Damian Hinds]

What the hon. Gentleman said is just not the case. He is absolutely right that securing accommodation on release is incredibly important—we have just had a similar conversation about employment, but accommodation underpins so much else, including the ability to get into work—but the tier 3 accommodation that he mentions had, by February of this year, already supported more than 5,000 people who would otherwise have left prison without a home to go to.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Further to the Minister’s comments about the progress made in magistrates courts, may I thank him for recently meeting members of the Cheshire bench who came to Parliament? Will he update the House on the decision to pause the additional sentencing powers granted to magistrates in 2022? Does he agree with me and members of the Magistrates Association that restoring those powers could free up about 1,700 extra Crown court sitting days each year?

[Mike Freer]

The change in sentencing powers was no reflection on the magistrates, whose work is highly valued. The Department continues to keep the sentencing powers under review. I give my hon. Friend the commitment that the issues raised in that meeting with his local bench are being progressed through the Department

Oral Answers to Questions

Andy Carter Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dominic Raab]

I certainly support the hon. Gentleman’s pursuit of maximum transparency. If he is having problems, he can feel free to drop me a line and I will see what I can do, but the FOI Act sets out clearly prescribed limits, and we want to make sure we process those applications fairly and properly.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Around 12 months ago, the Minister set out a plan to recruit a further 4,000 magistrates. Can he give us an update on how that is progressing? What steps is he taking to retain the most experienced presiding justices?

[Mike Freer]

There are a couple of things we are doing to achieve our target of 1,000 additional judicial vacancies this year, which is on track, and I am willing to share that with my hon. Friend. We have reformed judicial pensions today. In addition, we have increased the age limit, so that we can retain the best judiciary.

Sentencing: Repeat Offenders

Andy Carter Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Grahame Morris]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and what he says is reasonable. I have just been reading a book about the former Director of Public Prosecutions and his early career; he is now the leader of the Labour party, I believe. [Laughter.] He was at pains to provide sentencing guidelines in discussions with Ministers—Conservative Ministers, I might add—to try to address some of these issues. I do not think that Ministers can completely wipe their hands of responsibility.

I will elaborate some of the related issues and explain why prison is not as effective as it might be, although it is an important alternative, particularly for serial offenders. As I said, the victim of the particular crime that I referred to has completely lost confidence in the system and has said that he would not give evidence in future, because he thought that the sentence that was given was inappropriate—in fact he said that it was laughable.

When a case goes to court and the outcome is an affront to justice, it is the police who experience the fall-off in public confidence. Members might be aware that YouGov regularly conducts a survey in which it asks the public whether they have confidence in the police’s ability to deal with crime in their area. The trends are very worrying; 47% of the public lack confidence in the ability of the police to tackle crime, compared with only 43% who are confident in the police. Overall, the number of people who believe the police are doing a good job—nationally, and not in County Durham; I think we have an outstanding police force—has fallen from 75% to 53% in the last two years. I hope that sets alarm bells ringing for Ministers.

The failure is systematic. When I presented my Prisons (Violence) Bill in the previous Session of Parliament, I warned that offenders often left prison more damaged and more dangerous than when they arrived. The out-of-control levels of prison violence make rehabilitation in the current circumstances practically impossible. That leads to more reoffending, at a cost of tens of billions of pounds a year to the criminal justice system, as well as causing misery for millions of victims and their loved ones, who have to live with the consequences of even more crime.

That situation is more than an appalling waste of both public money and people’s lives; it is nothing less than a crime against our communities, and I must say that the Government are complicit in it. The Conservative Government and all Ministers are responsible, first, for the devastating cuts to the budgets of the Prison Service during the coalition years of austerity. It was those cuts that triggered the escalating level of violence in prisons. For example, the number of prison officers was cut by a quarter. That meant that a massive amount of experience, held by experienced prison officers, and of that most precious resource, which prison officers refer to as jailcraft, was taken out of the system at a stroke. The vacuum that was created was quickly filled by prisoners who had become more experienced than many officers on the landings of our prisons. The vacuum has also been filled by violence.

Despite recent recruitment drives, the Prison Service has lost almost 90,000 years—I repeat, almost 90,000 years—of prison officer experience since 2010. That is a shameful statistic, but it just gets worse every year. As the experience of the prison officers who are in charge of our prisons goes down, violence goes up; there is a direct correlation. In turn, that leads to even more officers leaving the service. Not surprisingly, the retention rate for prison staff is at a record low, as of course is their morale.

It has not helped that this Government have raised the retirement age for prison officers to 68. Frankly, for prison officers—both men and women—who are grappling with young and fit criminals, 68 is far too old. It is a cruel policy, which we have discussed on many occasions in this place.

The Government consistently ignore the advice of their own experts. The Prison Service Pay Review Body has proffered advice that prison officers should be given a proper pay rise. Ministers have ignored experts for three years running, and we are currently waiting for them to respond to this year’s pay review body recommendations.

The Government broke our Prison Service when they robbed it of resource, in the name of austerity, and now they need to fix it if they want to have any chance of reducing reoffending. The Government have also broken our probation service with a failed privatisation experiment. They took an award-winning service, envied and held up as a model and example around the world, and smashed it—fragmented it into little pieces, each to be run for private profit.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I had the opportunity to visit Thorn Cross prison on Friday and meet the excellent governor, Richard Suttle, who showed me around the site. I was struck by the number of employers now based in the prison, helping young people who are about to leave to find work. The hon. Gentleman talked of reoffending. The Government have taken significant steps to ensure that, when young people in particular leave prison, there is a work-based route for them. Does he acknowledge that that makes a significant difference to the number of people returning to prison?

[Grahame Morris]

That is a good and sensible point, but I draw the hon. Member’s attention to the report of the Select Committee on Education, chaired by the right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). That is quite scathing about the opportunities provided by the education service in prison.

[Andy Carter]

The Committee visited the same prison I did, and highlighted the outstanding work at Thorn Cross. Businesses such as Timpson ensure that, when people leave prison, they have a solid job to go to. That work starts inside the prison. I acknowledge many of the comments in that report, but Thorn Cross was highlighted as one prison with an outstanding performance of reducing reoffending.

[Grahame Morris]

That must be one of the prisons on my list to visit, though I hope not as an inmate. I received numerous invitations from prison officers when I was in Eastbourne. I held a surgery for prison officers to raise concerns, anonymously if they wished, and there is a catalogue of issues to be addressed. Prison education is certainly one of those, but that is normally delivered by members of the UCU, the prison educators, who have an unenviable task, which I will come to in a moment.

I want to continue my point about the role of probation. In the complex jigsaw of the criminal justice system, there are vital elements: the police; magistrates; the Crown Prosecution Service; prison officers; the prisons themselves, which should be properly staffed and resourced; probation and prison educators. Those are all important elements of that mosaic. Probation officers play a vital role that is largely unrecognised in reducing reoffending. That is what their jobs are all about and how we gauge their success. They perform a vital public service, protecting our communities from crime, while helping ex-offenders to develop the skills they need to turn their lives around.

By introducing a profit motive into probation—a mistake since acknowledged—the previous Government betrayed the highly skilled and priceless work done by probation officers with many years of experience, leaving their pay, terms and conditions at the mercy of private firms, which tried to reduce their role to little more than a tick-box exercise. That led to a flood of resignations, with people leaving the system, and all the problems we saw as a result.

Even now, two years after the Government admitted defeat and announced a full reintegration and renationalisation of probation, the service is still in the midst of a recruitment and retention crisis, very similar to the one in prisons. Napo has told me about the workload crisis facing its members. Many probation officers are working over their recommended offender management levels—the number of cases they have to look after—by between 20% and 50%, and in one case, by over 90%. The staffing and workload crises in probation have had terrible and tragic consequences in the past. It is no wonder that the mental health of many probation officers is at breaking point.

The Government have put the public at serious risk from reoffending by trying to run prisons and probation on the cheap, and undermining the pay and terms and conditions of those critically important workers in the process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

You will wish you had not said that, Sir Gary, but thank you for chairing this debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

It is welcome that the Government have committed to 20,000 new police officers and that we are on target to meet that number. It is interesting that in areas like ours, Sir Gary, such as the South Hams, we have 170 new officers and are due 217 more by the end of 2024, which we are also on target to meet. We have local initiatives such as the councillor advocates scheme, set up by our police and crime commissioner, Alison Hernandez, that help local parishes engage with the police to ensure better representation and visibility and a better ability to disrupt crime networks. Such structures will make a difference and, hopefully, alleviate the problems of crime in rural areas.

[Andy Carter]

We have similar experiences in Cheshire. The police and crime commissioner, John Dwyer, reported just this week that Cheshire is in line to have more officers than ever before in the history of the force by the end of March—a commitment that the Government made and are delivering on. Does my hon. Friend accept that although we often hear about having more police on the beat, many crimes are committed online and behind closed doors? The real value of having forensic investigators working behind the scenes is paying off with higher arrest rates, particularly in areas such as child exploitation.

[Anthony Mangnall]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The nature of policing has changed and we have to be clear about how we tackle crime. I do not expect to see as many officers on foot patrol, but I expect to see more of them driving about. Sir Gary, you did say that this debate is about sentencing, so I will get back to that topic. First, it is about crime prevention, and secondly—the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) touched on this—it is about people who repeatedly commit crimes and find themselves with unduly lenient sentences, such as his constituent.

It is not for Members of Parliament to stand in this place and decide what a sentence should be, but perhaps the Minister will clarify what the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act will do to enhance sentencing, because our understanding was that we would have the opportunity to be more stringent when it comes to those who repeatedly commit crimes. I do not want to take up a significant amount of time, but I do want to talk about one way in which we can deal with repeat offenders, which is rehabilitation.

There are three programmes that are relevant to where we are from, Sir Gary. The first is LandWorks, a local organisation in south Devon that works with those who are at risk of going to prison or are coming out of prison and likely to reoffend. It does it in three ways: engagement through a market garden, through pottery and through woodwork. It is a hand-holding exercise for those leaving prison to ensure that, from leaving prison to re-entering society, there is an opportunity to help them to re-enter and ensure that recidivism is not just something that we presume will happen.

I have visited LandWorks and I have asked the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins), to visit. The Minister answering the debate today is of course welcome anytime in south Devon—it is amazing how many Ministers want to come down over the summer, so he could take a quick holiday and a jaunt to that extraordinary organisation that works to reduce reoffending. It helps the police and the Prison Service, who feel helpless, by ensuring that we do not have more and more prisoners going back in. As a Conservative, I believe passionately that we should have a tough stance on crime but I also believe that the purpose of prisons is rehabilitation and that people deserve a second chance, so we have to find a balance between those two positions.

The second group I will reference is Pathfinder, which has been launched with the police. It is an evidence-based intervention that reduces harm and reoffending and can hold offenders to account for their actions. The scheme integrates offenders and the police, so that they can work together to ensure that offenders do not go down the predicted path of reoffending and are held to account through targets and checklists that they must fulfil. Strict adherence to the programme is already showing some successes.

The third initiative is NHS Reconnect. I recently met someone who was working intimately with the NHS Reconnect service who made the point that after they had left prison they never thought they would be able to get a job in something as big and as brilliant as the NHS. NHS Reconnect is the perfect example to show, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter) said, how businesses and public organisations and institutions can play a role. If we can help offenders to find a way into those schemes and structures, we can divert them from the predicted course, and that is where we have to focus.

Using those three initiatives—Landworks, Pathfinder and NHS Reconnect—we have the opportunity to disrupt the chain, the concept and the belief that reoffending is the natural course after leaving the prison system. The statistics accurately prove that crime in our part of the country is going down; I am sorry to keep referring to south Devon but, anecdotally, I am sure there are similar examples across the country, and in fact the statistics prove that. With the police and others coming up with innovative schemes, such as the councillor advocate scheme, we have a way to disrupt.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Daly (Bury North) (Con)]

I congratulate my friend the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) on bringing forward this important debate, which, as I said to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), can be viewed from a number of different viewpoints.

I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and declare an interest as a practising solicitor. I was a criminal defence solicitor for 16 years. During the halcyon days of the Labour Government under Tony Blair, I was in court every day and in police stations every evening, representing the reoffenders we have been talking about. I am sure the hon. Member for Easington has not come here just to engage in political point scoring, and he will not want us to get into a debate about this, but I could go through a whole raft of statistics from when I was practising before the courts under the Labour Government. Reoffending was rampant.

This will be my last point, because I do not want to get into this, but I do not know how Labour or any Labour politician can actually challenge a Government Minister when their leader has such an appalling record as Director of Public Prosecutions. There was a fall in conviction rates for serious sexual offending and other sexual offending. We should come to these issues without the political preening and look at what we can do to make things better.

I can tell the Members present that we could have been having this conversation back in 2001, when I first stood up in the magistrates court. The first mitigation I did was completely by luck—I was making it up as I went along. I got there at 9 o’clock in the morning and my new employer said, “Court starts in 45 minutes—off you go.” The first person I represented was a shoplifter. I did not know what to say, having had no experience of these things. It occurred to me that it would be a novel idea if the court was able to impose a sentence of a job and a home. I had no background training whatsoever, having done no criminal law during my training contract. I just had a feeling, at some point, that I would go into criminal law. I thought it sounded interesting. The feeling I had during that first mitigation has never left me: the way to tackle offending, certainly with repeat offenders, is by the state bringing as much stability to their lives as possible. That is an incredibly difficult action for the state.

Sentencing is a bespoke exercise. The idea that the Government impose sentences that are routinely put and that everybody—whether they are in Totnes, Easington or Bury—gets the same sentence in the same circumstances is utterly ridiculous.

[Andy Carter]

My hon. Friend knows that I sit as a magistrate. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) said that Members of this House do not necessarily sentence, but I actually do sentence. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly) is absolutely right. One of the greatest debates that benches of magistrates have is on the appropriate sentencing for the offender they see in front of them. Rehabilitation activity requirements and courses to help people understand the issues they face—on drugs, alcohol and dealing with conflict—are incredibly valuable and can form part of a sentencing package. As my hon. Friend says, it is right that magistrates have a full range of sentences available to them to ensure that the punishment fits the crime that an offender has been convicted of.

[Sir Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Thank you, Mr Magistrate, for the reminder that interventions should be slightly shorter than that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Carter]

Will the Minister talk about the changes to Friday release that have been announced? Having visited several prisons, it has always struck me that there are virtually no support services for prisoners when they are released into the community on Fridays. What was the thinking behind the changes?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and he is absolutely right about the impact of the changes. He will be aware that our hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mark Jenkinson) will introduce a private Member’s Bill to tackle this very issue. As we bring that Bill forward—hopefully with support from all parties—it will address my hon. Friend’s point.

On the matter of release, the hon. Member for Strangford asked a specific question: how do we notify the victim when the perpetrator is being released? I cannot comment on the arrangements in Northern Ireland, but we have a victim contact scheme in our jurisdiction. Where an offender receives one year or more in custody, bereaved close relatives and victims of serious sexual and violent offences are automatically referred to the scheme, so that they can choose to receive information on the following: first, when the offender is released or considered for release or conditional discharge; secondly, if the prisoner moves to open conditions; and thirdly, what the court sentence means for the offender’s detention in prison or hospital. We recognise that the point of release is a key moment to help offenders turn their lives around, which is why the issue of Friday release is important. As such, our prison strategy White Paper outlined our ambitious plans to ensure that prison leavers have the accommodation and employment support they need on release to help them to stay away from drugs and crime.

The hon. Member for Easington asked about prison education, and I can confirm that we set out our plans in the prison strategy White Paper to deliver a prison education service within this Parliament and to raise numeracy, literacy and skills in order to secure jobs on release. I have already highlighted the real progress that we are making in securing employment for prisoners, and we will change the law to enable them to undertake apprenticeships for the first time. In combination with our commitment to support prisoners to engage with community treatment ahead of release, we are confident that the measures will help reduce reoffending.

Specifically in relation to female offenders, who are more likely to commit low-level offences, we are delivering on our commitment to pilot a residential women’s centre. This will offer an intensive residential support package in the community for women at risk of receiving short custodial sentences, supporting them to address the underlying causes of their offending behaviour, including drug, alcohol and mental health needs, and to move on to settled accommodation. Last month, we announced that the first residential women’s centre will be in Swansea. The centre will now be subject to planning permission, but it will run as a pilot for five years and has received £10.6 million of spending review funding.

Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Easington for securing the debate. As I said, this is a matter that greatly concerns all our constituents. There is a lot of consensus about the measures that need to be taken, and I assure him that the Government understand the issue and are committed to tackling the harm caused by repeat offending.