Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

I am afraid I have to disagree with my hon. Friend. If he were correct, the criminalisation of homosexuality would remain acceptable, because the convention would not have evolved. I realise he touches on a difficult issue. Some have argued that the interpretation of the convention goes further than it should, and that is a legitimate issue of public debate. As for the principle that the convention should simply be static and remain where it was in 1950, I think careful examination would soon reveal a great many problems that would cause anxiety in this House.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Human Rights Act 1998 is also invoked by the victims of human trafficking and slavery to hold to account state agencies that fail to pursue and prosecute their oppressors. Should we not be careful that we do not take a retrograde step, leaving victims of human trafficking and slavery powerless and voiceless as a result of the Attorney-General’s changes?

[The Attorney-General]

First, I have put no changes to the House today. The hon. Gentleman makes the correct point that the Human Rights Act, as interpreted in our courts, provides a degree of protection. It is possible, however, to replace the Act with a British Bill of Rights that is compliant and compatible with our convention obligations, and which could do exactly the same thing. If I could provide him with some reassurance, the mere replacement of the Human Rights Act by a Bill of Rights would not necessarily lead to the mischief he anticipates.

Apprenticeships and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Friday 1st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Everyone in the House celebrates the value of apprenticeships in providing opportunities and developing skills, and my private Member’s Bill would help to promote more of that. It is vital that we have more quality apprenticeship opportunities, particularly for young people, especially at a time when nearly 1 million of them are still out of work. Surely it is common sense that the Government and public authorities are uniquely placed to use the leverage of the money they already spend on procurement to help promote skills training and provide new apprenticeship opportunities. This should be part of the procurement process, where appropriate. The Bill is a relatively simple idea: every supplier winning public contracts worth more than £1 million may be asked to offer apprenticeship opportunities in those public contracts, if that is what the public body seeks to promote.

First, I should set out the problems in constituencies such as mine and how my Bill could help. Given the stubborn long-term unemployment and youth unemployment in my constituency and many others like it, there is much more that local and national Government could and should do, including through their agencies and other public bodies. In Denton and Reddish, youth unemployment in September was still at 7.6%, compared with 5.9% nationally, in the 18 to 24 age group. Representing a constituency with such levels of long-term unemployment and youth unemployment, I think it is clear that more has to be done to help. The blunt truth is that many of the jobs in my area are low skilled and low wage, so the challenge in areas such as Denton and Reddish must be to upskill the work force, and to raise ambition, opportunities and life chances with it.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing the Bill to the House. Will he clarify something he said earlier, because I was a bit confused? If I remember rightly, he said that local authorities “may” do this, if they choose to do so, but at the top of the Bill, it says that the Bill is to

“Require certain public procurement contracts let by public authorities to include a commitment…to provide apprenticeships and skills training”.

It says “require”, not “may”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

And of course it says “certain public procurement contracts”, not all public procurement contracts, and it will be for the public body to determine whether it requires them. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the body of the Bill, he will see that it says “may”. I hope that clarifies his point.

We clearly have much more to do to transform educational opportunities and our culture for the forgotten 50% of young people nationally and the 68% in my area who do not get the chance to go to university. An important way of doing this is to offer quality apprenticeships that give a real and sustained route to a good career and to make the best use of public procurement contracts to help to achieve this.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I think what the hon. Gentleman is trying to do is thoroughly worthwhile, but I wonder whether it would be allowed under EU contract procurement rules.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The simple answer is yes, and when we get to that part of my contribution I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be won over to my argument. Actually, it is already happening in many local and central Government Departments, but there is a lot more we could do, which is why I hope he will support my Bill today.

Apprenticeships provide us with inspirational ways of realising our ambitions and enabling us to break the current cycle. One good example is the 50/50 scheme set up by my own Labour-controlled Tameside council, which awards up to 50 apprenticeship grants of £1,000 to employers who take on a 16, 17 or 18-year-old Tameside resident. Over the past few years Tameside council, working closely with the Connexions service, has gradually reduced the number of young people in my constituency who are not engaged in employment, education or training. Some of those young people want to learn while they are in work, and the initiative is intended to ensure that they have the opportunity to do so. Schemes such as 50/50 recognise the particular problems faced by young people in the current economic climate, and support them. They are training a new generation for economic recovery in places such as Denton and Reddish.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sure that my hon. Friend also welcomes the Liverpool Futures programme, which is run by a partnership of our chamber of commerce, Liverpool city council and the Eldonian Group, and is helping up to 3,500 young people to become apprentices.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I do indeed. There is much good practice throughout the country that we should be championing. I believe that my Bill will encourage other public bodies to do what my hon. Friend’s council, my council and, probably, the councils of Members in all parts of the House seek to achieve. Notwithstanding all that good work, however, it is a sad state of affairs when fewer than one in 10 employers offer apprenticeships. Far too many young people are being told that they have an apprenticeship after a course lasting 12 weeks or less, and one in five apprentices receive no actual training of any kind. I believe that, between them, Government procurement and my Bill could enable us to change that position.

I am proud of my party’s record in this regard. Under the last Labour Government, the number of apprenticeships more than quadrupled. We launched the official Office of Government Commerce guidance to encourage the growth of apprenticeships, whose principles are also evident in the Bill. I have been informed by both the Public Bill Office and the House of Commons Library that it is still the most relevant guidance for apprentices. The last Labour Government proceeded with major projects such as the kick-start housing scheme and Building Schools for the Future, and their work with the contractors on the Olympic park resulted in the creation of thousands of new apprenticeship opportunities as part of public procurement. That is a legacy of which I think we can be rightly proud.

It was the last Labour Government who ensured that skills and apprenticeships would be an integral part of the Crossrail project that we launched and that, I am pleased to say, the current Government have retained. It was our party that established the Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy, and constructed the framework for a procurement strategy based on taking apprentices from the local London boroughs. That was crucial to ensuring that young people in some of the most deprived communities in our country have the skills training that will be necessary for the next generation of engineers.

[Philip Davies]

I am becoming rather puzzled. Having said earlier that the Bill did not require anyone to do anything that they did not want to do, the hon. Gentleman is now producing a catalogue of local authorities and local public procurement bodies that would have done this themselves anyway had they wanted to. If the Bill does not require anyone to do something, and they can already do it if they want to, what on earth is the point of it ?

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is a fair question. The point of the Bill is that there is still the misconception—as we have heard today—that public bodies cannot do this because of European Union procurement rules. My Bill makes it clear to all that if they want to include apprenticeships in their tendering processes, they can do so. It also aims to drive up standards through the key provision that apprenticeships could be required to be at the higher or advanced level.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the Bill. Does it not also signal to employers that they will be expected to provide training for our youngsters? Not only will employers benefit from a skilled work force, but the Bill will benefit the community by creating better jobs, making businesses more competitive, and increasing the number of people who wish to use the services provided by those businesses. It is a win-win situation.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I hope that Members in all parts of the House will support the Bill, because it sends the message that we should be upskilling our work force, that we have confidence in the young people in our country, that we expect their future to be our country’s future, and that we should therefore invest in them through public procurement.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and a very reasoned case for the Bill, which, it seems to me, will also create a level playing field for businesses. Businesses want legislation such as this because, although there are patches of good practice, if that good practice existed throughout the country, there would be a level playing field not only for the young people who will benefit from the Bill, but for the businesses that invest in them and, at present, must compete with those that do not bother to do so.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is right. Over the past few months, when I was drafting the Bill, I spoke to numerous companies, large and small, which were bidding for public procurement contracts. They made precisely the point that my hon. Friend has made. If a public body requires apprenticeships to be part of the tendering process, the standards of the bids will be levelled upwards, so that a company that pursues good practice by providing apprenticeships will no longer be undercut by another that does not invest in skills and training.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that the Bill would send a message to public authorities that did not include a requirement for apprenticeships in their procurement processes. If that is all that he aims to do, would it not be simpler to write to the authorities explaining the position and to issue a press release, rather than trying to introduce legislation?

[Andrew Gwynne]

Were that to succeed, then yes, but the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that some Government Departments, public bodies and local authorities would still be saying “We cannot do this.” Introducing legislation giving them the power to ask to be allowed to do it, if it is what they want to do, will make the position clear to all. The Bill is not prescriptive; it does not compel those bodies to act. On the contrary, it empowers them.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

When I read the Bill, I thought to myself “This is a wonderful Bill. It is all motherhood and apple pie. It is fabulous.” Now I am struggling to understand why there is so much Conservative resistance to a Bill that will simply give our young people a decent start in life. What can possibly be wrong with that?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. I am confident that by the end of my speech and those of other Labour Members, the sceptics sitting opposite me will be won over to the cause of young people in their constituencies, which is equal to that of young people in Newham, Tameside, Salford, Hull, Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, Scunthorpe and Scotland.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am delighted to hear about all this rejoicing in Scotland. As I am being won over by the hon. Gentleman’s impassioned oratory, I wonder whether he ought to take the Bill a step further, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), and make it clear that it is above and beyond European law by putting in a “notwithstanding” clause. It would say, “Notwithstanding the European Communities Act 1972”, and that would make things absolutely certain.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

I look forward to the hon. Gentleman supporting my Bill and then moving such an amendment in Committee—I will certainly consider it then, if that is what he is willing to do.

The Labour Government also introduced national apprenticeship week, which aimed to give expanded chances and skills a focus for recognition and celebration, and set up the National Apprenticeship Service to help to drive the project all year round. It was launched as a vehicle to promote the real and valuable opportunities we all believe apprenticeships can offer.

The national apprenticeship week has become a central part of the employment and skills calendar. It is a week in which excellence and aspiration in learning, and acquiring skills and trades in areas as diverse as engineering, construction, the hospitality industry, joinery, accountancy and health and social care, are showcased and celebrated.

We can have our political knockabouts in this place, and I have concerns that this Government have slipped back on some of the progress, particularly for young people, but it would be churlish of me not to recognise that they have largely built on the record of apprenticeships and skills training that they inherited from the previous Labour Government. I hope that they, like me, will recognise that more can still be done. I was overjoyed that the Minister with responsibility for apprenticeships said during last week’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills questions that apprentices in public procurement do have a role. He said:

“Of course we do use public procurement to increase the number of apprenticeships, not least in Crossrail, which is the largest public procurement and construction project in Europe at the moment. It is true that we had to take action to remove some low-quality provision in the 16 to 19 space when we introduced rules to ensure that every apprenticeship was a job, which it had not previously been…We also have a programme in hand to increase the numbers. Participation in apprenticeships is at the highest level ever, which I would have thought all parties would be able to support.”—[Official Report, 24 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 421.]

Those were the words of the Minister for Skills and Enterprise. So let us see that clear statement of intent through to its logical end by supporting my Bill, as it is very much in line with that statement; let us use public procurement to drive up the quality of apprenticeship opportunities in this country.

We need an ambitious policy on apprentices—this is our challenge—and my Bill goes a small way to helping to achieve that. The Deputy Speaker will not be surprised to learn that I agree with my Front-Bench team that we need a universal gold standard for apprenticeships. That would mean that there would be the same standards and opportunities for young people who do not go to university as for those who do—we must remember that they account for about 68% of the young people in my constituency.

The policy was announced at this year’s Labour party conference by the shadow Business Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), and I am extremely pleased to see him here today supporting the Bill. Although the policy is not part of my Bill, it is surely right that minimum standards are introduced, in stages, leading to a system whereby all apprenticeships would last for a minimum of two years—preferably, three years—would be level 3 qualifications or above and would have a focus on new entrants to the labour market. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has also said that if a company wants a major Government contract, it

“must provide apprenticeships for the next generation.”

Indeed, at this year’s Labour party conference the skills taskforce published the first of three final reports, “A revolution in apprenticeships”, which looked specifically at how to increase the quality and quantity of apprenticeships, through new minimum standards and a something-for-something deal with employers. That is because a good apprenticeship can change lives just as much as a degree can.

There are already good examples of apprenticeships in my constituency, and I have mentioned the Tameside 50:50 initiative. Young people in areas such as Tameside are among those with the fewest opportunities to access the jobs market, yet it was Labour-controlled Tameside metropolitan borough council, working with the previous Labour Government, that ensured that contractors for schemes such as Building Schools for the Future took on apprentices as part of the Tameside Works First initiative. I commend to all hon. Members the fantastic new facilities at Denton community college. I should perhaps declare an interest, as my wife is chair of governors of that fantastic new school, which achieved 96% A to C grades at GCSE this year. Those are the best ever results, achieved in superb state-of-the-art facilities. The contractor that built that school, Carillion, took on no fewer than 13 apprentices as part of the construction project, because that was required by Tameside’s council under the Building Schools for the Future initiative. That was good public procurement practice levering in apprenticeships and skills training, and leaving a lasting legacy, not only in employment opportunities for those young apprentices, but in the form of a superb new school driving up education standards in my community for the future.

Tameside council restated its commitment to apprenticeships at the Tameside skills summit on 28 March. It set the challenge to its partners in Tameside to achieve 100% participation by 16 to 24-year-olds in education, training or a job with training by 2020.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I suppose the hon. Gentleman also accepts that it is sometimes difficult for a small company, consisting of fewer than 10 people, to have a formal apprenticeship scheme. In such cases, we might be talking about giving a job rather than having a formal apprenticeship scheme.

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is absolutely right. The Bill is not prescriptive and it relates to public procurement contracts in excess of £1 million, so the local public body “may” seek a commitment to skills training or apprenticeships as part of a contract. That can be carried out through a variety of means—

[Bob Stewart]

For a young person—

[Andrew Gwynne]

For a young person. That can be carried out in a variety of ways, one of which the hon. Gentleman outlined. Of course, however, it would be incumbent on that company or group of companies to explain what it is doing as part of the bid process. It would then be down to the public body to determine whether that meets its aims and ambitions for its local economy, but he is right in what he says.

Through the Tameside apprenticeships scheme, the local council has committed to helping small companies such as the ones the hon. Gentleman mentioned to take on apprentices, in response to feedback received about the difficulties they may experience. Those difficulties relate particularly to the construction sector, and some other sectors, where an employer cannot guarantee that contracts will last for the full 12 months or more of the apprenticeship. Tameside apprenticeships, a partnership between Tameside council, Tameside college, New Charter housing trust and the Tameside learning provider network has set a target to achieve 100 additional apprenticeships in the borough in the next 12 months.

If the employer has to withdraw from the agreement, the council has undertaken to pay the apprentices’ wages for a month while a replacement employer is found. As I have already said, the 50:50 scheme set up by Tameside council also provides up to 50 apprenticeship grants of £1,000 each to employers who take on 16, 17 or 18-year-old Tameside residents. It has been a huge success.

Good apprenticeship opportunities are also offered by the local housing association, New Charter housing trust. During apprentice week this year, it showed its continued support for apprentices with a pledge to take on at least 20 people from April, doubling the number of apprentices from the previous year. The trust has apprentices in a range of roles across the company including in administration, domestic gas engineering, painting and decorating and plastering—all good apprenticeships that can offer a ladder to a future career. New Charter has also taken on a role as lead partner in a new housing apprenticeship scheme for Greater Manchester called “Foundations in Housing”, working with other housing associations across the county.

In the Stockport part of my constituency, there is the 100 apprenticeships in 100 days initiative. Stockport council, which, incidentally, is Liberal Democrat controlled—I do not often have good words to say about the Liberal Democrats but today I will break the habit of a lifetime, even though it is noticeable that no Liberal Democrats have turned up to support the Bill—has worked with local employers to get them to take on more apprentices. Within the 100 days, the scheme’s target of 100 apprentices was soon reached and the campaign will now run until mid-November. It has been such a success that it has secured about 152 extra apprentices so far.

I also want to consider some of the good work being done by central Government. We know that since July 2011, the Department of Work and Pensions has been operating its apprenticeships and skills requirement contract schedule, which requires:

“The Contractor shall and shall procure that its Sub-contractors shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that 5% of their employees are on a formal apprenticeship programme.”

We can see from that initiative how the same formula could be applied directly elsewhere and in other Government Departments beside the DWP. Many more apprenticeship places could be created if the Government really wanted to expand apprenticeships in the public sector and through public procurement. I believe that my Bill can help the Government to facilitate that.

What better spur to action can there be for the two thirds of businesses that still do not offer apprenticeships than the knowledge that they are crucial to the Government and to working with the Government? Government, whether local or national, realises that it must be the responsibility of public procurement to do all it can to give young people a chance to get experience as an apprentice. Having an hands-off approach is simply not good enough and I commend the Government for recognising that in at least one of their Departments.

As I said in my opening remarks, all Members of this House celebrate the value of apprenticeships in providing opportunities and developing the skills of our work force and our future work force. We need to have more quality apprenticeship opportunities, however, particularly for young people at a time when nearly 1 million young people are out of work. I believe that my Bill would be useful and helpful to the Government in promoting that. It is common sense that the Government and public authorities are uniquely placed to use the leverage of the money that they already spend on procurement of public services to promote skills training and to provide new apprenticeship opportunities. That should be part of the procurement process.

The Bill is a relatively simple idea. Every supplier winning public contracts worth more than £1 million may be required to offer apprenticeship opportunities if that is the desire of the relevant public body. The Bill is not prescriptive and it does not compel, but it does empower. It would mean that companies applying for certain public procurement projects could be asked to include and offer quality apprenticeships as part of their bid if the public body wants that. My Bill would ensure that all apprenticeships offered as part of a public procurement contract would have to be advertised to all local workers, ensuring that those looking for a job would have a chance to apply and to be successful.

My Bill focuses on advanced and higher level apprenticeships, at levels 3 and 4, to ensure that we have apprenticeships that can rival university degrees. We should consider that point, given that in my constituency 68% of young people—and no doubt a similar proportion in the constituencies of other right hon. and hon. Members—or 50% of young people across the country do not have the opportunity to obtain a higher education qualification.

[Lyn Brown]

My hon. Friend is most generous in giving way. In my constituency, a firm called Kesslers has an amazing apprenticeship programme. It takes young people from the local area and trains them up to a high level. Its biggest problem is that it cannot get the higher education sector to hear its needs so that it can take its apprenticeships even further up the educational tree. Does my hon. Friend agree that higher education has a part to play in apprenticeships and we must encourage the providers to supply the courses that are needed to allow our young people to go as far as they possibly can?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the consequences of the provisions in my Bill will be a snowball effect. If public bodies, in particular, demand higher and advanced level qualifications as part of the apprenticeship deal more often, the greater the likelihood that higher education institutions will offer the qualifications that are relevant to the industries concerned. I think that from small things big things will grow. I am encouraged that my hon. Friend is in the Chamber today, because she speaks passionately about the job and work opportunities for her constituents. Like me, she represents a deprived community where educational opportunities are often the best route out of poverty. We know that in our communities public procurement is often the big spender. Using that money more wisely to help lift the job opportunities, skills and ambitions of young people in Newham and in Denton and Reddish is the best way of giving them opportunities for the future and of boosting the local economy.

As I said, many local authorities are already leading the way in their use of procurement to boost apprenticeship numbers. Not only my council, Tameside, but Knowsley, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and many others are developing strategies to use procurement contracts to create local apprenticeship opportunities for young people. Other authorities such as Plymouth, Bury—the authority of the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) —Reading and Stockport are engaging actively with local employers to boost apprenticeship opportunities more generally.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. Would he also pay tribute to the work that Birmingham city council is doing with its 1,000 apprenticeships in 100 days initiative, which has had a major impact? But it is really important that all these initiatives reach those areas where the young people, who are often excluded, do not know these opportunities are available and target those areas as well as areas where racking up economic activity is already going on.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I commend the superb initiative in Birmingham. He is absolutely right that we must ensure that those who are the hardest to reach and who most need such opportunities have access to them. My Bill requires that those opportunities be advertised in the local jobcentre, because that is the only way to ensure that those hard-to-reach groups have the opportunities to access their way out of poverty, and to develop the skills and education that so far, sadly, they have missed. I am extremely pleased that my hon. Friend is here today to support these measures, because they will have a big impact, in cities like Birmingham, in driving up the ambitions and the skills of young people.

The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) asked why, if this work is already taking place, there is any need for the Bill. In my discussions with a variety of public bodies, local councils, companies large and small, and training organisations, they have said that for all the good practice that exists, far too many public bodies still do not regard public procurement as a way to drive up skills. Perhaps that is because they do not have the ambition to do that, or because they have unfounded fears that some bogeyman in Brussels will say that it is not permissible. If the hon. Members for Bury North and for Shipley are fearful that my Bill might fall foul of Brussels, I invite them to join us in the Aye Lobby later, because I know that they both love nothing more than a scrap with those bogeymen in the Berlaymont.

I do not believe that Brussels is a problem, but others are looking to Government to provide them with the certainty that they need, so that local authorities, public bodies and Government Departments may require certain public procurement contracts to include a commitment to skills training.

[Diana Johnson]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend, with his vast experience and knowledge of the national health service, feels that the NHS and the new structures that have been created by the coalition are playing their part in providing apprenticeships and training for our young people.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, because while there was some good practice in the national health service, this is one area where we have witnessed in recent months the rolling back of skills training. I do not know whether that is because the new NHS bodies have been so fixated on reorganisation that they rather neglected skills training, or whether it is purely because some of the new bodies do not realise that they have the power when commissioning services—as clinical commissioning groups have, as providers of public services—to ask some of the people bidding for those contracts to provide apprenticeships. My Bill would make it quite clear that public bodies—my definition would encompass clinical commissioning groups—would be able, as part of their contracting process, to ask companies that bid for those contracts to provide adequate skills training.

[Luciana Berger]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing today’s private Member’s Bill. It is absolutely fantastic and I am delighted to be supporting it today. Does my hon. Friend accept that in some large infrastructure projects in some areas, there can often be some local ill feeling that a lot of the people coming to work on the projects come from far away? I think of a project locally, on Merseyside, not naming any names, where there is a lot of ill feeling that people are travelling long distances—from as far away as Bristol—to work on it. Does he agree that a scheme such as he is proposing today, to encourage local apprenticeships, would really help to develop local skills, so that for future projects, it will not be necessary to ship people in from far and beyond?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one reason why my Bill makes it clear that those opportunities for apprenticeships and training should be advertised locally, so that local young people in constituencies such as Liverpool, Wavertree will have access to those skills training positions that are being made available in the city of Liverpool. At any one time, umpteen posts will be being made available in Liverpool, but if we do not tell young people in Liverpool—as in my constituency, there is structural, long-term unemployment and long-term youth unemployment there—we shall never break that cycle. This very simple measure will therefore make a big difference in a city such as Liverpool, along with the other areas of the country that we have already mentioned.

It is worth placing on the record that the cross-party Business, Innovation and Skills Committee report on apprenticeships recommended a similar approach in respect of public procurement. The House of Commons Committee argued that the Government should aim for the benchmark used by many leading businesses in the construction sector, including Kier, Willmott Dixon and Laing, whereby for every £1 million spent by Government Departments and their agencies on public procurement, at least one new apprenticeship place should be created. Some estimates suggest that that could create tens of thousands of apprenticeships, although my Bill is much less ambitious and makes no commitment on the numbers of apprenticeships within public procurement projects.

I am very pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) is not only here today to support my Bill but is one of its sponsors. I pay tribute to the ten-minute rule Bill that she introduced a few years ago, which has led to important Front-Bench policy developments in the Labour party and, I believe, helped to build the head of steam for our campaign today. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend.

My private Member’s Bill has attracted supporters, including the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, the Association of Colleges, the National Union of Students and—although I do not want to put off the hon. Members for Bury North and for Shipley—Unite and the GMB. However, we still do not know whether today those on the Government Front Bench will back this very sensible and very modest measure to help boost apprenticeships.

Almost 1 million young people are unemployed and we must act now to prevent another lost generation. A public procurement policy as outlined in my private Member’s Bill could create even more and better apprenticeships, and we would start to transform the numbers and the life chances of countless young people. So my plea to all today is to support this simple measure. It makes economic sense and it is common sense, but it is also the right thing to do and, in these financially constrained times it would be cost-neutral to the public purse. Therefore I urge all Members and the Government to support my Bill in the vote today.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on securing the slot at the top of today’s proceedings for his private Member’s Bill. It is common in these times to congratulate somebody on that, but I want to go a step further and congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the passion that he showed in his support for apprenticeships. Nobody who heard him today could doubt how much this subject means to him, or his desire to help as many young people as possible achieve their goals in life and fulfil their potential, which is what apprenticeships are all about. I commend him for the speech he made because that passion and that desire to help those people in his constituency and across the country shone through for everybody to hear. It was an excellent speech.

However, I admit that I am slightly confused by some parts of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, as I alluded to earlier. In some respects the Bill is a typical Friday Bill, in the sense that we are, in effect, being invited to support something that expresses a nice sentiment. I am not aware of anybody in the House who is opposed to apprenticeships or who does not want to see people achieve their potential, reach their goals in life and have the right path tailored for them. That is common ground across politics. I question why anybody involved in politics would want to stand in the way of any of that.

On a Friday we are invited to support not just a sentiment, but a particular piece of legislation. This is one of the occasions where it seems that if we support apprenticeships and the Bill has “apprenticeships” in the title, we must support it, because if we do not, we must be against apprenticeships. I do not like that approach to passing legislation, where we are invited to vote on a sentiment rather than on a Bill.

The hon. Gentleman’s thesis, if I understood it correctly—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—was that there is a lot of confusion out there. The Bill is typical in that we are invited to support a sentiment, but it is untypical in the sense that the hon. Gentleman rather characteristically honestly seemed to suggest that it was not actually necessary—there was no need for a law. Although a law would help in achieving his goals, it was not strictly necessary.

[Andrew Gwynne]

It would be false to suggest that the Bill is not necessary, because if there is confusion, it is necessary to clear up that confusion beyond any doubt, and the best way to do that is to put the clarification into legislation and on the statute book.

[Philip Davies]

I appreciate that point of view, which certainly has merit. My concern is that rather than clearing up confusion, as the hon. Gentleman seeks to do, passing the Bill would create even more confusion. The reason I say that with some certainty is that having read the Bill myself, obviously, before today’s proceedings, I am more confused than ever about what its impact would be. It has not cleared up any confusion; it has made me even more confused than I was before.

At the very start of the Bill—I shall read out the words because it is in some respects the most crucial part—it states that this is a Bill to

“Require certain public procurement contracts let by public authorities to include a commitment by the contractor to provide apprenticeships and skills training; and for connected purposes.”

Clearly, the Bill requires certain public procurement contracts to include a commitment to provide apprenticeships. It is not an invitation or a suggestion that certain contracts may be able to do that; it is a requirement that certain contracts must do that.

The hon. Gentleman’s speech seemed to fly in the face of what is written at the head of the Bill. I do not doubt his desire that the Bill should allow local authorities and other public bodies to do that if they so wish. He made it abundantly clear that that was the intention behind his Bill, and I have no reason to doubt that that is the intention, but any public body looking at the legislation that he is seeking to pass in order to clarify the situation could only read the heading of the Bill—the most fundamental part, setting out what the Bill is all about—and believe from reading it that it must do as stated, and that it is not voluntary, but something that it is required to do.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My Bill is only short so I am sure the hon. Gentleman has had time to read it all. The opening words require

“certain public procurement contracts”.

Were I the borough solicitor for my local authority, I would then look at clause 1(2), which states:

“An authority issuing a contract under subsection (1)(a) may require that a minimum proportion of the apprentices employed by the contractor are higher or advanced apprentices.”

It is pretty clear.

[Philip Davies]

I hope to have the opportunity to come on to some of the detail in the Bill. Suffice to say at this point that I am not sure that the bit that the hon. Gentleman read out is particularly relevant to the bit that I read out. The bit that I read out is a requirement to provide apprenticeships and skills training generally, whereas the bit that he read out is about a higher level of apprenticeships, so we are talking rather at cross-purposes. I am not entirely sure that his point addresses my point or that my point addresses his. That is why I think we may be left with further confusion.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We heard what I thought was an excellent speech from the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish and it was difficult to disagree with much of what he said. We may have a slight disagreement about the respective merits of each party’s approach and what they did while in government, but it would be churlish to argue the toss on that. I am willing to look above the party political and look at the issue as a whole, and I agreed with virtually everything that the hon. Gentleman said. My concern—I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) for jumping in at this stage—is that the hon. Gentleman’s view that the Bill was all about people’s choices seemed to fly in the face of the language in the Bill, such as the words “require” and “must”.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Surely the hon. Gentleman would concede that after “must” the clause continues

“give due consideration to the relevant guidelines issued by the Office of Government Commerce (OGC) or by the Cabinet Office or any related body”.

Surely he is not seeking to allow apprenticeships that fall outside the Government’s own guidance for apprenticeships.

[Philip Davies]

Again, there is an awful lot on which we agree. It might help if I started with those parts of the Bill and the hon. Gentleman’s speech with which I agree the most, and they relate to his desire, which I share passionately, that apprenticeships must be of a certain quality, which has not always been the case. That is not a party-political point because it has probably been the case under successive Governments. Everyone knows the value that people place upon apprenticeships, and political parties of all persuasions have realised that the public have a great deal of faith in what might be called old-fashioned apprenticeships and have jumped on the apprenticeship bandwagon and tried to suggest that they are bringing them back. What the public have thought of as apprenticeships has not necessarily matched what they delivered. Some apprenticeships became nothing more than the sort of on-the-job training that would take place when someone was recruited to a new job, to which people attached the name “apprenticeship” to make them look good, make them sound good, and make the Government look good with the numbers, when really it was no such thing. What I most welcome in what the hon. Gentleman has said today is his desire to ensure that the quality of apprenticeships remains high.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am pleased to hear what the hon. Gentleman has just said, in the light of which I appeal to him to support the Bill today so that we can have clause-by-clause debates in Committee, which is the appropriate place for them. Given what he has said, I take it that he supports clause 1(1), which sets out exactly the argument for having assurances that in public procurement contracts any apprenticeships must meet the Government’s guidance.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman seeks to take me down a route on which I am not entirely sure that I am anxious to follow him, which is that if there is one clause, paragraph or line in a Bill with which one agrees, one must support the entire Bill even if one disagrees with the rest of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

I intend to come to that point later, but the point I will make briefly in response to the hon. Lady now is that we are all in favour of apprenticeships, as I have made clear, but hopefully we are not all equally in favour of apprenticeships at any price or at any standard. It is no good just saying that we want more apprenticeships; we want more proper apprenticeships that lead to proper jobs and train people in a proper skill so that they can become an expert. One of my concerns about the Bill is that some local authorities might go through the motion and go back to where we were before, with apprenticeships that are not of the level we would all like to see just in order to tick some boxes. I know that that is not the intention behind the Bill, but sometimes I worry that that will be the unintended consequence.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The hon. Gentleman is making a perfect case for supporting my Bill, because clause 1(2) states:

“An authority issuing a contract under subsection (1)(a) may require that a minimum proportion of the apprentices employed by the contractor are higher or advanced apprentices.”

The Bill would offer the opportunity for the upskilling that the hon. Gentleman wants.

[Philip Davies]

I totally agree with the sentiment behind what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but in many respects he has “may” and “must” the wrong way around. If the Bill stated that local authorities “may” do this if they want to—rather than that they “must” and that it is a requirement—but if they do the apprenticeships “must” be of a very high standard, I would have a lot more sympathy with it. It seems to me that he is saying that public bodies must—I know that he disagrees, but this is how I read the Bill—do this, but that the quality is an option rather than a requirement. I therefore think that the bits that public bodies could choose to do are the wrong way around, and there is no guarantee that the apprenticeships would be of a high quality. He might like to encourage them to be of a high quality, but his Bill does not require that.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am genuinely pleased that the hon. Gentleman wants there to be upskilling and wants the requirement to be strengthened. May I urge him to support the Bill and, in Committee, table an amendment to clause 1(2)? In that way, he could replace “may” with “must”.

[Philip Davies]

If I hear the hon. Gentleman correctly, and I may not have done, this sounds like a red letter day for me. It appears that he has agreed to change the wording of his Bill to suit my views. This is the first time an amendment of mine has been agreed in advance; they are not usually agreed even when tabled at the appropriate time. If I am right, it has been a successful day at the office for me and my time has not been wasted.

I say to the hon. Gentleman that the Government are already doing a good job in introducing greater rigour into the apprenticeship scheme. I would not want to do anything that inadvertently led to that being weakened, so I am not convinced that the Bill is the way to go. I shall come to what local authorities and public bodies should focus on when deciding on procurement, which does not always go well.

Trying to have a top-down approach, which is what the Bill encourages, is not necessarily the way forward. A bottom-up approach is far better. It is better to leave businesses to ensure that apprenticeships are tailored to their needs. The problem with the Bill’s approach is that we will end up losing the idea that apprenticeships should be set by businesses to suit their approach; the issue will become a tick-box exercise for companies to achieve a contract.

Companies will not necessarily introduce an apprenticeship because there is a job at the end of it and they really need the skill; the danger is that the whole thing will become a form-filling exercise: “Oh, if it will help us get a contract, let’s just say that we’ll take on an apprentice. There won’t be a job for them at the end, but the costs of putting the person through an apprenticeship is x and we’ll get a contract worth y. We have done the calculations, and it’s worth our while taking on an apprentice—five, if we have to.” That company would know full well that at the end of the period there would not be a full-time job for the apprentice, who would have spent time on a false prospectus, hoping that something would happen.

[Philip Davies]

I understand the point, but local authorities would have to undergo an awfully long learning process. If somebody takes on an apprenticeship lasting a year, two years or three years, as the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish envisages, only to find out that a job was never going to be available at the end, it will take at least three years for the lesson to be learned. There is no telling how many contracts could have been awarded in that time. The situation would just roll forward.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The hon. Gentleman is partly right. Having an apprenticeship that leads to a job is superb and should be the ambition. Surely, however, we should also support apprenticeships that lead to a degree-level qualification. Although they might not lead to a job with the particular company, they would widen the opportunities for future employment by giving the apprentices work experience, skills training and a decent high-level qualification for the future.

[Philip Davies]

That may be true. My problem with the sentiment behind the Bill—this has been a problem in the past—is that apprenticeships have been seen to be an end in themselves: what is seen to be important is the fact of an apprenticeship. With the best will in the world, it is not the apprenticeship that is the end in itself, but what it does for a person’s career prospects. My concern is that we focus too much on the word “apprentice”, without focusing on what it will deliver for the long-term career aspirations of the people concerned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

The only end I want to see is an end to youth unemployment, an end to long-term unemployment and an end to the low-skill, low-wage economy.

[Philip Davies]

We all want those things; I am not aware of anybody who has come into politics to extend youth unemployment, stop people from fulfilling their potential, deny people opportunities or prevent the best people from getting jobs through their own effort and characteristics. We all want that—it is a statement of the obvious. We all want the same outcome.

What goes to the heart of much of this debate is not the ends we want to achieve—no doubt we all want the same ones—but how we best achieve those ends. I am not convinced that the hon. Gentleman’s approach, no matter how good the sentiment behind it, will deliver what he and I wish to see. It may take people off the unemployment list for a short period, but I am not interested in that. I want them to be off that list for ever and to go down a path that will mean that they are never unemployed again. I am not entirely sure that, with the best will in the world, the Bill will deliver that.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Surely the hon. Gentleman agrees that one of the best ways to get people off the unemployment register for ever is to ensure that they are highly skilled and relevant to the needs of a modern work force and a dynamic economy. Backing the Bill is one way of helping to achieve that.

[Philip Davies]

Of course we agree on that, but I am not convinced that the Bill delivers that; if I were, I would agree with it. It could deliver false expectations and enable companies bidding for a contract to go through the motions of offering something that will not do the apprentice any good and benefit only those companies.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not want a false prospectus to be put before young people to help a big company win a lucrative contract. A lot depends on how the initiatives are described. He describes them as he does, but if I describe them as I do, people might come to a different conclusion about whether we should support them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am trying to tease the hon. Gentleman into supporting the Bill. Perhaps, again, he could do that by supporting it on Second Reading and tabling an amendment in Committee for a sunset clause. If, after a period, it turns out that he is right and I am wrong, and the Bill has not succeeded, the Act of Parliament would cease to exist.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman has inadvertently, I think, hit on a touchy subject. He is probably not aware that I proposed a sunset clause for a previous private Member’s Bill—an expiry date, in fact—to which the promoter and the Government agreed, but the Government reneged on their promise when it went to the other place. He will therefore forgive me if I am rather nervous about agreeing to sunset clauses, which sometimes are not delivered.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I shudder to think that the Government might renege on a promise. May I give the hon. Gentleman an example? My previous private Member’s Bill in the 2009-10 Session—the Debt Relief (Developing Countries) Bill, which became the Debt Relief (Developing Countries) Act 2010—had a 12-month sunset clause inserted in Committee. In fact, it was his Government who, after 12 months of enactment of that very laudable Act, decided that it had indeed worked in the way I always believed it would, and made that Act of Parliament permanent.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman has clearly had more success with my Government than I have, and I commend him for that, although, on reflection, that probably would not be too difficult. Once scarred, one becomes very shy of agreeing to sunset clauses. His offer was no doubt generous, and I will bear it in mind, but I am sure he will forgive me if I remain rather cynical about agreeing to something that might not be delivered.

I am big supporter of small businesses, not just in my constituency but across the country. They generate much of the wealth in this country and will generate much of the future growth in the UK economy. One of my concerns regarding small businesses is that there is already an awful lot of red tape and rules surrounding public procurement contracts. I genuinely worry that the Bill would not help small businesses to get some of these public procurement contracts but might in fact hinder their chances of doing so. Let me give the House a flavour of this. In preparation for the debate, I had a look at the procurement rules and standard conditions of contracts and supply of services of my local authority, which is Bradford council—unfortunately, but there it is. The first thing I came across was a 30-page document about how somebody goes about applying for a contract at Bradford council and what is expected of them. It is a combination of the blindingly obvious and other things I cannot really see the point of, but it is all set out in great detail for everybody to go through exactly what they have to do.

Once businesses have navigated their way through the 30-page document and got their lawyers and solicitors to pore over exactly what some of the conditions mean, they then have to go through the obligatory equality and diversity document, which runs to another 13 pages, whereby they have to set out all sorts of information about any complaints they have had, any findings against them in the past three years, and whether they have been the subject of formal investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. That seems a bizarre requirement, because it does not ask whether it has been found in breach of anything by the Equality and Human Rights Commission but whether it has been investigated by it. If it has been investigated and found to have a clean bill of health, it seems a bit rough that it still has to declare something that may rule it out of getting a contract. There are also forms to fill in and nine parts of a thing that people have to answer.

The hon. Gentleman probably thinks that that is great and we should be encouraging local authorities to go through it all. In fact, he clearly thinks it is so great that he wants to add further things to the public procurement rules and regulations. No doubt when all these businesses are bidding for their contracts they will have to say how many apprentices they are going to take on and what the standard is going to be. All this is just to bid for a contract; there is no guarantee that they are going to get it. Any small business would have to take on the costs of going through all this preparation. The more we pile on to these contracts in the application process, the more we ensure that no small business will ever get any of them.

I am sure that that would be an unintended consequence, because I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would want to do anything to disadvantage small businesses in bidding for public procurement contracts. I know him—I have followed his career closely—and I have never heard him say anything to suggest that he would want to do that. As far as I recall, he has been a champion of small businesses, including those in his constituency. However, I worry that this would be an additional burden.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Clause 4, on interpretation, makes it clear that

“‘relevant contract’ means a contract which…exceeds a total value of £1 million”.

That has to be read alongside clause 1(2), which says:

“An authority issuing a contract…may require…a minimum proportion of apprentices”.

It is up to the discretion of the public body whether it wants that requirement for a particular contract. I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s local authority in Bradford would not want to create a set-up that precluded local businesses from winning these contracts. However, I certainly want to see a commitment to skills and training as part of bigger contracts such as the Denton community college project that I mentioned in my opening speech.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman has only confirmed what I already knew about what he thinks this Bill will achieve, but I am not convinced that it would. I think it would be an extra layer of bureaucracy for people who are bidding for these contracts. Perhaps, as I am on a roll, he might think about increasing the size of contract to which the Bill would apply. Many small businesses would very much like to get their hands on £1 million contracts from public bodies. If he has big contracts in mind, perhaps the £1 million figure should be considerably higher.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am happy to have this debate in Committee. If the hon. Gentleman believes that all the red tape that he has listed appertaining to his local authority is the problem, then perhaps he could do more to convince his Front Benchers that if they accept my Bill, then under their one in, one out rule they could look at other measures that he has cited as being a problem in his local authority. I have to say that these issues are not a problem in my two local authorities, one of which is Labour-controlled and one of which is Liberal Democrat-controlled.

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman is very lucky, then, but his Bill applies not only to his local authorities but to all of them, including mine, which is also run by the Labour party. I cannot say that I necessarily have the same faith in my local authority as he does in his.

The problem is that all the existing requirements are not only leading to lots of burdens for small businesses in getting their hands on some of these lucrative contracts but causing lots of confusion for the local authorities themselves. Adding further requirements on to local authorities regarding public procurement would cause even more confusion. I am concerned about this because of what happened in Bradford council. A report was produced that showed a major lack of skills and expertise among council staff in Bradford tasked with getting the best deals for its suppliers. Bradford council spends about £350 million a year with outside suppliers and holds more than 1,500 contracts. The council’s corporate overview and scrutiny committee revealed a major skills shortage not among the people who were doing the contracts but among the staff who buy the goods and services and commission the works from the suppliers. It seems to me that, occasionally, the staff, who are already trying to juggle all these documents in order to get the best deal, are just not up to the job. I do not see how asking them to consider something else as part of the public procurement process would help them in their efforts to get the best deal for the council taxpayer.

[Philip Davies]

I take the hon. Lady’s point and I will come on later to the view of the Federation of Small Businesses on the Bill and whether it thinks it would be to its advantage. For the moment, I want to stick to the point about the capability of the people in public bodies who are giving out contracts.

The report on the contract procurement process at Bradford council found that, of 170 council employees doing procurement work, none—not one—was actually trained in it, and that staff lacked a

“widespread understanding of both UK law and European directives related to procurement and commissioning”.

The report brings into doubt the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish that passing an extra Act would clear up any confusion, because Bradford council staff did not have any understanding of UK and European law anyway. Adding another law would not help; it would probably make them even less likely to understand the law.

The report goes on to say that, among a 20-strong dedicated procurement team, there was a

“shortage of procurement skills and expertise”,

that the team was

“often asked to conduct tenders at short notice and are unable to maximise value improvement”,

and that officers were

“often restrained and inflexible in their approach to procurement and were becoming very compliant and rules orientated”.

That goes to the heart of one of the dangers of this Bill. Procurement should be a relatively straightforward process. It is about trying to get the best possible service or product at the best possible price, thereby generating the best value for money for the purchaser—in this case, the taxpayer. That is what people should focus on when doing procurement.

The problem is that there are so many rules, regulations, documents and policies that the basics of what procurement should be about are getting lost in myriad other factors. The Bill does not help address that problem, which has left Bradford council taxpayers out of pocket because they are paying more than they should for contracts. As the report states, officers were

“inflexible in their approach to procurement and were becoming very compliant and rules orientated”.

I fear that the Bill would make what has already been identified as a problem in local authorities such as Bradford—I do not have a great deal of faith in Bradford council, but I am sure it is not alone in this—even worse. People would focus on the wrong things—nice-to-have things—and forget about the big picture and what they were supposed to be doing.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being generous with interventions. Surely one of the important things for Bradford is to get Bradford people back to work, highly skilled and highly qualified. That is a core function, I think, of Bradford council in its procurement policy.

[Philip Davies]

A good starting point for its procurement policy would be to get more qualification among the people doing the procurement in the first place. It should also get the best deal for the taxpayer. That is what the focus of any procurement should be: getting the best deal for the taxpayer. The problem is that more things are being added on as a result of thinking, “Wouldn’t it be nice to have this and that? Let’s make this and that a requirement of a contract and encourage them to go down that route.” All that does is divert the attention of people involved in public sector procurement from what their main focus should be, which is to get the best value for money and the best price for the taxpayer.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Is having young people not in education, employment or training of best value to the taxpayers of Bradford?

[Philip Davies]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that procurement policy will solve every ill in the country. I do not see that. He will be telling me next that public procurement contracts could eliminate illegal immigration. It just does not work like that. Let us focus on how we can make effective progress on individual areas.

As I have said, I think that the Government are doing a very good job at increasing the number of apprenticeships and at making sure that they are proper apprenticeships and that they lead to worthwhile jobs. The Government are already making good progress. We should encourage, celebrate and enhance that work.

The problem with procurement is that public bodies often do not get the best value for money for the taxpayer, so that is what we should focus on. Once we have done that and local authorities and public bodies have iron discipline in getting the best deal for the taxpayer, perhaps then we could look at how they could use procurement to advance some of the public policy areas mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. My point is that we—particularly Bradford council—are a long way from that. Let us get back to basics to start with and start negotiating some good deals for the taxpayer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

In many cases, public bodies are already co-operating with businesses, and further intervention could have a negative effect. The Minister for cities, the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), has confirmed a second wave of city deals, and that strategy goes a long way towards achieving what the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish wants. I am, therefore, not entirely sure that the Bill is needed in that respect.

My right hon. Friend has issued a written statement about the Greater Ipswich city deal, which is about addressing youth unemployment, increasing the skills level of the local work force and making sure that local businesses, local authorities, colleges and the Government co-operate in order to provide opportunities, ensure that

“dedicated support is available to match young people with jobs through a youth jobs centre…Expand the number of jobs and apprenticeships in local businesses”,

and increase

“local investment in skills training”.—[Official Report, 30 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 49WS.]

It is not that anyone disagrees with the agenda of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish, but the Government, through their city deals, are already doing an awful lot to address it. They should be allowed to flourish and continue their work, and I hope they will be successful. The Bill will not necessarily help; it may get in the way of, or even repeat, that work.

I think we would all agree that the Federation of Small Businesses is a leading business organisation of small businesses and the self-employed. It was formed in 1974 and has about 200,000 members, so we should listen to what it has to say. The Federation of Small Businesses is very supportive of apprenticeships:

“We believe apprenticeships can transform a young person’s life and give them access to bespoke training and often a highly skilled job as a result. Apprenticeships should be recognised as vital introductions to careers that can take individuals all the way to the top in the business. We need to see reforms continue to strengthen and protect the image of apprenticeships which, over the years, has been damaged by constant change.”

The Federation of Small Businesses shares the opinion with me and the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish that apprenticeships are valuable, but that they must be high quality. I agree with the FSB that that has not always been the case., but it also welcomes the Government’s “commitment to quality apprenticeships”.

The FSB supports the

“intention behind the Bill, which is to drive up apprenticeship numbers.”

As I have said, it would be difficult to oppose the sentiment behind the Bill. However, it also says that it is concerned that the Bill

“might hamper the progress being made and unintentionally harm the image of apprenticeships by reinforcing the perception that apprenticeships are a government driven work scheme of limited value. It is for this reason that we oppose the use of procurement to boost apprenticeship numbers.”

[Andrew Gwynne]

I have seen the letter from the Federation of Small Businesses. I take issue with its view because although we are using the power of public procurement to increase the number and improve the quality of apprenticeships, it is the private sector—whether that is being done by big or small businesses—that will be delivering the apprenticeships. It is therefore not seen as a Government initiative because the requirement is on the private sector to deliver them.

[Philip Davies]

That is where the hon. Gentleman and I part company. If a public body insists that a certain number of apprenticeships must be provided for a business to win a contract, that is not apprenticeships being delivered through the private sector, because it is being insisted upon by the Government. I am with the Federation of Small Businesses in thinking that an unintended consequence of that is that apprenticeships would go back to being a Government-driven scheme.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously saying that a local authority such as Tameside, which has problems such as youth unemployment, long-term unemployment, low skills and low wages, cannot be ambitious and say to the private sector organisations that want to win contracts in the area that they must play their part in boosting the local economy?

[Philip Davies]

Of course the local authority can say that. I take it from what the hon. Gentleman said earlier that it is saying that. The Bill has not been enacted, but there seems to have been no impediment that has stopped his local authority from doing that. It can do what he wants already. It does not need this piece of legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

To take the argument further, the hon. Gentleman will recognise that that is not being done in many parts of the country because local authorities misunderstand the rules, and that many Government Departments are not doing it. I have used the Department for Work and Pensions as an example. Surely it would be a good thing to make it clear in statute that this is an option for local authorities.

[Philip Davies]

Perhaps this is another difference between our philosophies. The hon. Gentleman seems to think that if we pass a piece of legislation, everybody will do what he wants them to do. I do not see it like that, particularly if there is no requirement to do anything. I do not agree that passing the Bill would lead to the step change that he wants. I fear that the Bill would not remove confusion, but that it would create confusion over whether local authorities have to do what it says and over how much importance they should put on it. It would lead to the unintended consequences that the Federation of Small Businesses has identified.

The federation went on to say:

“We need to ensure that apprenticeships become a quality ‘product’ for all sectors and sizes of business. They need to be highly skilled training programmes which many employers want to use as a way of growing their business.”

The key is that employers must use apprenticeships because they want to and because it is right for their business and for the people concerned, not because they have been told to do so as part of a public procurement exercise.

The federation added:

“By concentrating on quality in the long-term we believe numbers will follow.”

I agree with that. If we want to ensure that as many people as possible take up apprenticeships, we must focus on making them of a high quality so that people can see that they mean something, that they deliver something worth while and that people who have done them go on to fulfil their potential. If that is delivered, the numbers will follow, because businesses and young people will see the benefit. We do not need to force apprenticeships on them or provide harsh encouragement, or however the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish wants to describe it. In the long run, I am not sure that that is the way to get many more successful, genuine apprenticeships. I agree with the concerns expressed by the Federation of Small Businesses.

I wonder how the apprenticeship requirements would be enforced by local authorities. If a local authority requires a business to take on a certain number of apprentices, that could lead to unintended consequences. The contractor might be unable to fulfil the commitment because of unforeseen circumstances. The local area might not have the calibre of people they are looking for or there might not be enough people who want to go down the right avenue. Somebody might start an apprenticeship and then drop out. Where would we go from there? Would the contract be scrapped mid-flow because the person was no longer taking the apprenticeship? Would other companies sue the council because they lost the contract not on the basis of cost, but on the basis of apprenticeships and the apprentices have dropped out midway through the contract? There could be all sorts of legal ramifications if local authorities make this something that companies must consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Another danger is that if apprenticeships become an important focus for a public body in its procurement, it will become the focus of the bids. A company will increase the price that it is charging in order to take on x number of apprentices and will get the contract on that basis. The price that is charged to the taxpayer will therefore be higher than it otherwise would have been. The problem of overpaying for contracts in the public sector that has been identified would be made worse by this proposal.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Doe the hon. Gentleman have any evidence to suggest that that is happening now?

[Philip Davies]

I cannot give him evidence of what would happen under a Bill that has not come into effect. He does not know what effect the Bill would have and neither do I. I am merely expressing some concerns about the effect that it might have.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I will try to help the hon. Gentleman. When Tameside procured new schools under Building Schools for the Future, it ensured that there was a commitment to take on local apprentices. Was the contract price inflated as a result? Does he have any evidence to suggest that? Is not the reality that all it meant was that the contractors provided adequate skills training as part of the bid?

[Philip Davies]

You chastised me earlier, Mr Deputy Speaker, for concentrating too much on Bradford. The hon. Gentleman might have his blinkers on, and he may not have seen beyond the world of Tameside, great place though it is. I used to work at Asda’s Stockport store, and I am sure he used to travel through his constituency regularly to go there. I am sure many of his constituents have shopped there, too. However, we cannot really make a decision on national legislation based on the impact that he thinks it will have on Tameside or how successful the measures have been there. Perhaps he might want to introduce a private Bill that applies only to his local authority, but unfortunately the Bill before us today would not apply only to Tameside.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I do not wish to draw your anger, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I would point out that I want the best practice of Tameside and Stockport to be spread out across the whole country, which is the purpose of the Bill. Let us make it happen in Bradford, too.

[Philip Davies]

I am touched by the hon. Gentleman’s desire to help Bradford. The local authority probably needs some assistance, and I am sure it will be ringing him up as we speak to learn about best practice. Perhaps we ought to say that Chorley is a great place, too, so that you do not feel left out of this local authority love-in, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I have a helpful suggestion for the hon. Gentleman, to ensure that the FSB’s concerns are addressed and that it is not inadvertently excluded from the process. If he wants to pursue his agenda, although I do not necessarily believe it is the right way to go, he should make it clear that small businesses would be excluded from the Bill’s requirements and that they would apply only to businesses with a certain turnover. That might overcome the FSB’s problems with the Bill.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The hon. Gentleman is genuinely coming up with some pertinent ideas. Again, I urge him to support the Bill and table amendments in Committee so that we can have a thorough discussion about the merits of the case that he is making on behalf of the FSB.

[Philip Davies]

I am not entirely sure that a further discussion is what I am asking for. We are having a good discussion today, and we can have a further discussion in the Tea Room if the hon. Gentleman wants one. I am looking for solutions to the problems that I have mentioned.

I promised that I would mention EU procurement law, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset did. I am not a great fan of the EU, it has to be said. In fact, the sooner we are out of the wretched organisation the better, but unfortunately, while we are in it we are governed by it. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish said he was adamant that the Bill would not fall foul of EU procurement law. I might have missed this, but I am not entirely sure of the basis on which he has decided that. Has he taken legal advice, or is he just working on the basis that as his local authority is already doing this and has not been pulled up by the EU, it must be fine?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I would helpfully point out that the Government, in the form of the Department for Work and Pensions, are doing it as well. Let us take a stand on this.

[Philip Davies]

That is helpful. I thought the hon. Gentleman said earlier that the DWP was poor at it, but obviously I misunderstood him and it is doing well. However, public procurement has to comply with a number of EU directives and regulations. According to EU legislation, all tenders from the public sector that are valued above a certain financial threshold must be published in the Official Journal of the European Union, which is published every day in 22 languages.

There have been cases in the European Court about public procurement, particularly one in Italy in which there was a requirement to procure at least 30% of supplies from undertakings established in southern Italy. That was taken to court because it was seen as discriminating against suppliers in other parts of the EU. The conclusion of the case was that nothing can be introduced in a public procurement contract that may discriminate against a potential supplier in other parts of the EU. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that a public body granting a contract should ensure that there are a certain number of apprentices, I am not entirely sure of the basis on which he can be confident that that does not fall foul of those EU procurement rules.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I know that the hon. Gentleman seeks a European bogeyman behind every piece of legislation, but may I commend a bit of reading to him? That is the European Commission’s guidance note “Buying Social—A Guide to Taking Account of Social Considerations in Public Procurement”. It suggests that promoting employment, decent work and access to training can be taken into account in public procurement contracts.

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but unfortunately it is not for him, or even necessarily for the European Commission, to decide on EU law. It is for the European Court to decide whether something falls foul of that law. I do not doubt the intentions behind what some people would like to happen, but I am not sure that he can be totally confident on that point.

The hon. Gentleman made it clear earlier that some public bodies are already getting on with it and doing what he wants them to, and that nobody is kicking up a big fuss about it. As he has told us on many occasions, it is working well for his local authority. One unintended consequence of passing the Bill could be to encourage somebody to take a complaint to the European Court, which would force it to make a judgment, and it might rule that the idea is illegal. At the moment, it is just happening, everybody is quite happy about it and nobody is kicking up a fuss. I am sure he agrees that that unintended consequence would be a tragedy.

I will not go into any more detail about numbers of apprentices, because I do not think that would be necessary or particularly relevant. However, I wish to mention some statistics on the national apprenticeships website, because I believe that the Bill might damage some of the great figures that it gives. One is that 96% of employers who take on an apprentice report benefits to their business, which is absolutely fantastic. One reason why that figure is so high is that employers take on apprentices for all the right reasons. They get the right person and can see what the benefit to their business will be. My fear is that if the Bill were passed, they would take on apprentices for the wrong reason—simply to win a contract rather than to bring genuine benefit to their business.

Another statistic on the website is that 72% of businesses report improved productivity as a result of employing an apprentice. Again, that is absolutely fantastic. I hope that, if nothing else, this debate will stimulate people to think about taking on an apprentice and seeing the benefits that will flow to their organisation. However, there has to be a bottom-up approach, and the top-down approach encouraged by the Bill would not help those fantastic statistics. It is surely better that employers take on an apprentice because they want one rather than take one on grudgingly because they feel they have to.

You will be pleased to know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am drawing my remarks to a close—I am trying to race through them as fast as I can. However, I have a few points to raise that the hon. Gentleman may want to reflect on. How does he intend to ensure that the quality of apprenticeships being offered is maintained? Who in a public body that was giving a contract would be responsible for ensuring that the company concerned had taken apprentices on, that they were doing something worth while and that the apprentices had not dropped out halfway through? It cannot be down to the national apprenticeship scheme alone. Presumably, the public body that is giving the contract must monitor what is happening. Who will do that and how much will it cost?

Does the hon. Gentleman envisage a situation in which the number of apprenticeships that need to be taken on is pro rata to the size of the contract? For example, if there is a £1 million contract, the expectation might be that the contractor takes on at least one apprentice; if there is a £2 million contract, the expectation is of two apprenticeships; and if it is £5 million, there will be five apprentices; and so on. Perhaps the contract will be worth £10 billion—it could be the contract for high-speed rail. Is he saying that it is fine if that contractor takes on only one apprentice because it ticks the box, or does he believe that the value of the contract should be reflected in the number of apprentices taken on? I would be interested to know his views on that.

How big a factor should apprentices be when deciding whether to give somebody a contract? How much should other value to the taxpayer, such as the price, be taken into account? Somebody might bid £1 million for a contract and offer to take on three apprentices, but somebody else who offers no apprentices bids £500,000 for the contract. What weight is given to the apprentices in that situation? Who does the public body give the contract to in that situation? How important is taking on the apprenticeships the hon. Gentleman wants to deliver in the overall contract? I would rather the public body gave the contract to the £500,000 bidder, because that gives the best value to the taxpayer, but he might have a different solution. I wonder where his Bill fits in.

The hon. Gentleman has a definition of public authority in the Bill, but I am not entirely sure how far that goes. For example, is the BBC covered by his Bill? If it is, how does he envisage the scheme working? If it is not covered, why not? Why is the Bill not part of the BBC’s deal given that it is a publicly owned, public service broadcaster?

What protection does the hon. Gentleman envisage in contracts for existing staff? What if somebody bids for a contract and offers to take on so many apprentices, and pays for it by getting rid of existing staff? Surely we do not want a situation in which somebody gets rid of existing staff to ensure that they hit the target. I am sure that that would not go down well with the trade unions, which he mentioned. What protection does he envisage for existing staff to ensure that they are not elbowed out of the way to provide an apprentice?

How would the hon. Gentleman know that an apprentice had been taken on a result of a contract? Suppose a massive company bids for a contract that is only a small bit of its pie—it might take on 100 apprentices in the course of its business, irrespective of the contract. When it bids for the contract, it might say, “We’ll bid £1 million for the contract and, by the way, take on 100 apprentices.” Who is to say whether the taking on of those apprentices is linked to the contract? How would the hon. Gentleman ensure that the apprentice who is taken on is linked to the contract? I do not see how that is possible. That is another way in which the measure discriminates against smaller businesses, which cannot cross-subsidise apprentices from other parts of their business in that way. I am not entirely sure how that will work or who will monitor it, or how much such monitoring will cost.

What will the hon. Gentleman do to improve the skills of the people who are procuring? As I have said, that is one of the problems. How will any subcontracting be monitored?

--- Later in debate ---

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in support of the Bill, which has been introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). I congratulate him on the Bill and on the excellent way in which he opened the debate. We can lose our way in such debates when there are such long contributions from Government Members, but we will remember this debate for how he opened it.

I want to say to my hon. Friend and those who are interested in supporting the Bill that apprenticeships are important for my constituents, who appreciate how much difference a completed apprenticeship can make to their employment chances. We need a strong skills infrastructure and a high proportion of our young people participating in higher education, or gaining an advanced apprenticeship or equivalent technician-level qualification. That is one point of agreement among hon. Members this morning—we all support the more advanced apprenticeships that can take people to a higher level of training.

I have looked at the benefits to those who take on apprenticeships. The Richard review of apprenticeships found that apprenticeships deliver substantial wage and employment benefits over the learner’s lifetime. It found that, in fact, an advanced apprenticeship delivers wage returns of 22% and employment returns of 14%. The person who achieves an apprenticeship can therefore earn 22% more than similar individuals who have not completed one. In addition, completed apprenticeships continue to deliver those strong earnings and employment returns for seven years post-completion. On the point from the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), completing an apprenticeship straightaway delivers higher wages to that person and carries on delivering for seven years.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend is going to support my Bill today. Is not the point about lifting those opportunities and raising the salary levels of her constituents of real importance, because in her area, like mine, low skills and wages are endemic? This is about tackling those two great social problems in places such as Salford and Denton and Reddish.

[Barbara Keeley]

It very much is, and I really do agree with my hon. Friend.

I agreed with the point my hon. Friend made earlier about long-term unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, being high in Salford and my constituency, as it is in his. In my constituency—only a part of Salford—we have almost 3,000 jobseekers, of whom 900 are unemployed young people and 390 are over-25s who have been unemployed for two years or more. In fact, the number of people who have been unemployed for two years or more has risen this summer by 34%. I hear from young people, week in, week out—as I am sure do other hon. Members—about how over one or two years of unemployment they can start to lose hope. I get some really desperate appeals for help and support from them.

The previous Labour Government’s offer was that by 2015 there would be an apprenticeship for every 16 or 17-year-old who wanted one and was suitably qualified. We should keep that in our minds, because obviously, with the economic difficulties in recent years, we do not want 16 and 17-year-olds who are not in education, employment or training to lose hope, and I think they could do so. Worryingly, the number of apprenticeship starts for under-19s has fallen by 20,000 from 132,000, in 2010-11, to 112,000 last year. That is a dismal record. Youth unemployment remains stubbornly high, yet the number of apprenticeship starts for that age group have fallen. That is pathetic.

Government Members, in particular, have spoken about the difficulties of small employers taking on apprentices. You might be aware, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I took on an apprentice in my constituency some years ago. She was a 17-year-old who had started her business administration apprenticeship in a bakery, but was interested in working in an MP’s office. She was an excellent staff member and completed her apprenticeship, becoming one of the highest-achieving apprentices the college had ever worked with. In her early 20s, she is now a county councillor serving part of your constituency, Mr Deputy Speaker. We can, therefore, support apprenticeships. It is an interesting development that not only did she train in business administration, but she has gone into local government and I am sure is doing an excellent job.

[Barbara Keeley]

Indeed, it is. I should say—I am sure it was the same for my hon. Friend—that that excellent experience was partly due to the training supervised by my office manager, to whom I give credit. As employers, we have to remember that we can play our part. Like all employers, we must offer training. What is more, having a 17-year-old working with us really revitalised my office. I was invited to a 21st birthday party—the first I have been to in a long time!

Apprenticeships.org is the website of the National Apprenticeships Service. In May, we were worried that only 37 apprenticeships in Salford were available on the website, and now there are still only 44, so the situation is not improving. There are other websites, but that is the national one. Salford city council is doing an excellent job providing support for apprentices and apprenticeships through Salford Futures, an employment initiative that has been running since April 2012. It, like the earlier example from Tameside, provides support to unemployed Salford residents through the provision of work experience placements and pre-employment training and support. It also encourages local employers to create and develop employment opportunities through the provision of grants, funding and wider business support. I have managed to link up employers who contacted me with that business support, and I know it is excellent.

Salford Futures is being delivered with the support of the Greater Manchester combined authority, not just individual authorities. The hon. Member for Shipley talked about his local authority perhaps not excelling in procurement, but local authorities can work together on this, and that might be a solution for any authority that feels it does not have the skills to do it. It is supported by the Greater Manchester combined authority and co-funded through the Greater Manchester commitment to youth employment scheme. There are some excellent partnerships in areas such as Greater Manchester, which are committed to ensuring that we tackle the scourge of youth unemployment. The package of support for employers includes

“Access to a 13-week wage subsidy, paid at national minimum wage, for any employer that recruits an eligible Salford resident into an apprenticeship or job with accredited training for a minimum period of six months…Brokerage and dedicated recruitment support…Information and advice on accessing additional funding opportunities, including the National Apprenticeship Service’s…initiative…Wider business support from Salford City Council's business team”.

I commend the business team. I put an employer who was interested in taking on apprentices in touch with them, and I know that they gave that employer a great deal of support.

The Bill would ensure that suppliers who won major public contracts began to offer apprenticeship opportunities if those contracts were at a certain level. We have just had a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about the circumstances, but the Bill actually follows on from “Apprenticeships”, the fifth report from the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. Having looked into it, the Committee recommended that approach, and suggested that at least one new apprenticeship could be provided for every £1 million of procurement spending.

I have described what Salford city council has been doing, but there is also good news from Salix Homes. Our housing associations are really showing the way ahead. Salix Homes was recently named by Salford council as the chosen landlord to take ownership of the 8,500 council homes in Salford in a proposed stock transfer, although that is, of course, open to consultation. It has worked to secure a commitment from its contractors—or subcontractors—to recruit two apprentices for every £1 million invested in homes and communities throughout Salford. That amounts to more apprenticeships than the number recommended by the Select Committee, and it shows what can be done. Salix Homes has promised that if the stock transfer goes ahead, it will invest a further £700 million over the next 30 years, which it says

“could generate more than 1,000 new apprenticeships for…young people.”

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting more of the best public procurement practice that already exists. Salix Homes has set itself a very ambitious target. Have any small businesses in my hon. Friend’s constituency expressed the fear that that may prevent them from being included in the subcontracts?

[Barbara Keeley]

No. I understand that Salix Homes and the sub-contractors want to work in a way that helps both local young people and those who train them.

Salix Homes wants to employ highly trained people if it becomes the owner of those thousands of homes, and I commend it for that commitment. It would not, however, become the landlord in my part of Salford, where another organisation, City West Housing Trust, committed itself to creating 40 apprenticeships, which it managed to do in 2012. Perhaps we can now generate a race between the two housing associations: the target set by Salix Homes might provide the spur for City West Housing Trust.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My Bill requires apprenticeships that are being generated in places such as Salford to be advertised in local jobcentres to give young people an opportunity to gain access to training and skills. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is an important provision?

[Barbara Keeley]

Indeed, and I shall say more about it in a moment.

As my hon. Friend said, it makes a great deal of sense for the Government and public authorities to use the leverage of the money that they already spend on public procurement—this is not additional funding—to promote skills training and provide new apprenticeship opportunities. We need those in Salford. According to the latest monthly figures, we have a core of 3,000 unemployed people, including nearly 1,000 young people, and that preys on my mind.

I hope that my hon. Friend is heartened by the example that I gave from Salford, but it is clear that many more apprenticeships could be created if the Government backed his Bill. Recently, we have had contracts let by public authorities without any local advertising of job vacancies or any commitment to provide apprenticeships and skills training, and that is a real missed opportunity. My hon. Friend talked about the new schools completed through Building Schools for the Future, but I had contractors complaining to me as our new schools were being built that they did not feel it offered them opportunities locally. We have had new buildings at Salford Royal hospital, and the BBC and ITV have moved to Salford Quays. The BBC has done quite an amount, as a publicly funded body—it is not a public authority and so the Bill would not strictly apply to it—to take on more apprentices. The BBC has said that, being the name it is, people apply from all over the country, whereas I know that what it wants to do, now that it is based at Salford Quays, is try to take on local young people. Having the vacancies advertised in the local jobcentres would help with that. So a number of opportunities have been happening in Salford, but we still have fewer than 50 apprenticeship vacancies advertised on the national apprenticeships website. I should say that four of those are with the BBC in Salford, whereas 20 are with the BBC in London, so we are still not forging ahead as much as we should.

I go back to the fact that we have 3,000 jobseekers in my constituency, with 900 young people unemployed and 390 over-25s who have been unemployed for two years or more. I think about that group of unemployed young people. I want them to have the opportunities of an apprenticeship and the benefits that can bring: higher wages straight away; higher wages over the period of seven years; and more chances of employment. We need the extra apprenticeships that could come through the measures in the Bill and I very much commend it to the Minister and to all hon. Members here today.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), who made a considered and thoughtful contribution, much of which we could all agree with. As has been said, we are all agreed that apprenticeships are generally a very good thing and that a lot of good work is being done on them. If this debate has done nothing else, I hope it has been able to highlight some of the excellent practices going on around the country. I apologise for the fact that I have to leave at about 2.15 pm, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not sure when the debate will finish. It may have wrapped up by then, but if it has not I apologise to the Bill’s promoter and to the Front Benchers, if I miss their speeches.

The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), my near neighbour in Greater Manchester, made an interesting opening speech. When there are no explanatory notes to a Bill, as is the case with this one—I certainly was not given any by the Vote Office—I always rely on the opening speech to clarify some of the issues. It probably says more about me than it does about the hon. Gentleman, but I was a little more concerned and mystified by some of the Bill’s provisions after I had heard his speech, and the explanations he gave in response to some of the interventions, than when I read it in my office over the past couple of days.

The hon. Gentleman has a touching, perhaps naive belief in the Government’s ability to create jobs and to do so through direction and the inclusion of certain provisions in contract clauses. He mentioned the 50:50 scheme, and I understand, if I heard correctly, that that scheme was run by his local authority, which paid £1,000 for each apprentice. I am not sure whether the number of apprenticeships was limited or unlimited, but of course there is already a Government scheme, the apprenticeship grant for employers—AGE—scheme. I am sure he will be familiar with the scheme, which provides £1,500 to small businesses.

The AGE scheme, which applies specifically to young people aged 16 to 24, was announced in November 2011 and launched in February 2012, and was designed to encourage more small businesses to take on apprentices and to encourage young apprentices to raise their skill levels. It pays £1,500 to every small business that takes on a young apprentice if the firm has never hired an apprentice before and if it has 1,000 or fewer employees when it takes the apprentice on. It is very much geared towards small and medium-sized enterprises, and the employer cannot claim more than 10 grants. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s local authority got the idea of giving a cash sweetener to local employers from that scheme.

One point has emerged which goes to the heart of the Bill: is it mandatory, compulsory or merely permissive? That question is at the core of my concerns. We have heard a lot from the hon. Gentleman about his belief that the Bill is purely permissive but, frankly, that is not the purpose of legislation. Local authorities and public bodies already have the freedom to do what the Bill proposes. Indeed, we have heard many examples already of good practice. Where appropriate, public bodies have encouraged—I would not want it to go any further than that—contractors to take on apprentices.

The only possible rationale for having the Bill at all is if someone has the view that there are not enough apprenticeships and that not enough are of a high enough quality. Clause 1(2) is about a possibility—I will not put it any more firmly than that, as that is what the hon. Gentleman has said himself. It says that an authority “may”—note, “may”—

“require that a minimum proportion of the apprentices employed by the contractor are higher or advanced apprentices.”

That is about raising the general skill level of apprentices.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that if a local authority—for argument’s sake, let us say Bury metropolitan borough council—is procuring services and wants to ensure that the apprenticeships linked to the contract are of a higher or advanced level, it should be able to specify that in the contract?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful for that intervention because it allows me to make an important point. If the Bill were to say the opposite and prevented any procurement contract from including a provision requiring a contractor to take on higher level or advanced apprentices, or any apprentices at all, I would certainly be very much against it. But of course that is not the Bill before us, and local authorities already have the power to include such a provision, as the hon. Gentleman said.

[Andrew Gwynne]

But does the hon. Gentleman not want to put it in statute, so that it is beyond all reasonable doubt that public bodies can specify that a proportion of apprenticeships tied into a contract should be of a higher and advanced level?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am not aware that there is any doubt at all. The phrase “beyond all reasonable doubt” is commonly used to describe the burden of proof in a criminal case, where the prosecution must prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt. As has been made clear, there may be some instances where local authorities, for whatever reason, are not doing what some other local authorities are doing, but by the hon. Gentleman’s own admission, the Bill will not change that.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Actually, the Bill will change that because it will make it clear to those local authorities that are not doing this that they are legally able to do it. The hon. Gentleman says that there is no doubt at present, but if so he cannot have been listening to his hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who seemed to spread a lot of doubt about whether local authorities were able to do just the kind of things that we are talking about.

[Mr Nuttall]

The hon. Gentleman refers to my hon. Friend’s speech. This debate is not about whether I agree with my hon. Friend; it is about the terms of the Bill. The arguments that my hon. Friend made may or may not be the same as the arguments that I will advance—and quite frankly, I do not think it matters whether they agree or not.

[Mr Nuttall]

I entirely agree. I think that intervention goes to the nux of the Bill—[Hon. Members: “Nux?”]—the crux of the Bill. Did I say nux? That is a new word. It is the difference between the nub and the crux. It goes to the core of the Bill—I will change track.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Of course the Bill is empowering in its ability to allow local authorities to require a proportion of apprenticeships to be of a higher or advanced level. The only compulsion that I can see is that a relevant contract must require the contractor to advertise the vacancies in their local jobcentre. Surely the hon. Gentleman is not arguing that that is a bad thing.

[Mr Nuttall]

I do not want to jump ahead too far in my speech, or I shall run the risk of repeating myself later. The hon. Gentleman is right about the provision in clause 2:

“A relevant contract must require the contractor to—

(a) advertise all vacancies”.

I have my concerns about that, which I will come to. Before that, let me deal with the question whether the Bill is mandatory or permissive, which is where I started this preliminary remark.

Although I am constantly told that the Bill is permissive in so far as clause 1 is concerned, I have concerns, as I mentioned briefly in an intervention, that if the guidelines were altered, one interpretation of clause 1(1)(b) would mean that a tenderer—somebody applying for a contract—could be required to do as the clause states. It would be mandatory in those circumstances because the clause says:

“must . . .

(b) ensure that the provisions in the guidelines issued by the OGC . . . are reflected in that contract”.

If that provision were used, it would become mandatory. I say that by way of preliminary comment.

Two or three speakers have mentioned the number of higher level apprenticeships, level 4. The statistics that I have, which I think are the most recent ones, show that the number of level 4 apprenticeships increased from 3,700 in 2011-12 to 9,000 in 2012-13. Although these are still small numbers, they are the very highest level apprenticeships, which are a fairly new creation, so by definition the numbers will be small because it takes a while for people to follow through the lower levels and to be able to move on to the higher level. That step change in those numbers from 3,700 to 9,000 shows the general direction of travel.

I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish on his success in coming so high up in the ballot for private Members’ Bills that he secured pole position on one of the coveted first seven Fridays, which means that he could be certain of having his Bill debated. It deals, as I said, with a worthy cause and at first sight it seems very attractive, but that is all that can be said for it. It is superficially attractive, but I fear that it will not achieve what he wishes to achieve. I share with him the desire that there should be more higher quality apprenticeships, but as I will go on to say, all the evidence, and there is plenty of it, shows that the route that the Government have taken over the past three years has increased the number of apprentices.

The Bill goes to the heart of the debate about the extent to which the Government—any Government—should micro-manage individual businesses and their relationship with Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The clause is restrictive. It suggests that all an employer would have to do is put an advert in just the jobcentre and they would then think that they had discharged their duty. They would not necessarily feel that they should advertise any wider than that, because that is all the clause requires them to do.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Surely the hon. Gentleman is not arguing against the logic he voiced earlier when he said that he supported small businesses? He seems to be saying that they should be compelled to advertise apprenticeship positions in the local papers, which would involve many requisite costs.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am not suggesting any compulsion. It is the hon. Gentleman’s Bill that suggests that small businesses must advertise.

[Andrew Gwynne]

In jobcentres.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am not suggesting that small businesses should be forced to advertise in a local paper. I am suggesting that, given that the Bill requires them to advertise in a jobcentre, they might then not advertise in a local paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am delighted to take part in proceedings on this important Bill, which I support. I reiterate my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on introducing this excellent Bill, which I believe is crucial.

I am disappointed by what the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) said over the course of 55 minutes. I cannot understand how he believes his constituents are best served by him speaking for just under an hour in Parliament in London on a Friday against a Bill that would help them, particularly the young people, into employment. I cannot wait to go and campaign for the Labour candidate in Bury North, who I know will stand up for young people who are desperate to get into employment. In the north-west of England, where we have seen an increase in unemployment, it is incumbent on all hon. Members to do everything we can, going down every single avenue, to promote employment and skills.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I will join my hon. Friend on the streets of Bury North to campaign for the Labour candidate. Does she agree that the people of Bury North will find it very hard to understand why the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) does not want job opportunities to be promoted in the local jobcentre in his constituency?

[Luciana Berger]

I listened closely to the remarks of the hon. Member for Bury North. I know how many of my constituents rely on the jobcentre for finding out about opportunities. They might not be able to afford to pay for our local paper. We do not have a free sheet—our previous free sheet is now inserted in the paid-for paper. For those reasons, the hon. Gentleman’s objection is incomprehensible.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Did not our hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) make the pertinent point that, in many of our constituencies, the free papers are no longer delivered to many of the communities to which we want to reach out with those adverts?

[Luciana Berger]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. We need to do everything we can to promote and let people know about opportunities. Our local newspapers are under a lot of pressure, including the Liverpool Echo. We used to have the Merseymart free sheet, but it is no longer available. It used to be delivered, but now it is not. People have to buy the Liverpool Echo to get the Merseymart free sheet, which is inserted in it. For all those reasons, it is important that we increasingly look to our jobcentres. The Government are asking people to use the internet more, and the jobcentre website, on which people can access opportunities virtually, is an important resource.

[Luciana Berger]

I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but we are conflating various points. Businesses are free to advertise their jobs wherever they wish, but the jobcentre is a crucial resource. Jobcentre Plus requires jobseekers to apply for a number of jobs within a time period. For many people, that is the first resource they use. It is a free resource for business, and I am surprised that the hon. Member for Bury North does not want his businesses to advertise on it.

The Bill seeks to

“Require certain public procurement contracts let by public authorities to include a commitment by the contractor to provide apprenticeships and skills training; and for connected purposes.”

I support the Bill because I have met many people with experience of tendering for public procurement contracts, during which process they must specify and comply with many things. Different local authorities and public bodies, such as the NHS or education authorities, use different frameworks, but they are all very comprehensive, and because tendering companies must comply with and cover so many different things, if the contracts say nothing about apprenticeships, they often do not get included.

The Bill would not mandate apprenticeships, but would be an important tool with which to ensure an increased focus on this area. We need to do everything we can to help people into employment, particularly young people. If people do not get into employment when they leave school, college or university, it becomes increasingly difficult for them to do so over the rest of their working lives. I have met many companies that are concerned about this, but which do not understand the rules—we have discussed Europe already. The Bill would make it a lot clearer and much easier for businesses and public authorities to focus on apprenticeships.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. Above all, the Bill would give clarity to those contractors about what public bodies can and cannot ask of them.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that helpful clarification at a time when others have sought to confuse that point.

I do not want to take up too much of the House’s time, but I wish to support what Liverpool city council has done on apprenticeships. It has made every effort to work with partners to create apprenticeships in our city. I repeat that unemployment is rising in the north- west. Under enormous pressure from the massive cuts imposed by central Government, the Labour council in Liverpool is trying to be positive and forward-looking and to create employment opportunities. It has created 926 apprenticeships—no mean feat—by working with its service partners, including Glendale, a ground maintenance company, and BT, with which it has provided ICT apprenticeship opportunities.

The council has created hundreds of apprenticeships through the council’s investment plan for schools. The Government’s decision to scrap the Building Schools for the Future programme had a massive impact in Liverpool, where 26 schools were in the pipeline for refurbishment or rebuild. It was an absolute disgrace that the scheme was scrapped, but the council has done everything it can to go ahead with as many schools as it can afford. Knowing that investment in those schools and education buildings is vital, we have put in place our own investment plan for schools, in spite of the Government, not with their help, and now the construction firms building 12 new schools in Liverpool have committed to creating apprenticeship positions as part of their contracts. The council has done that of its own accord.

[Luciana Berger]

If the hon. Gentleman had listened to the earlier contributions from Opposition Members, he would have heard that we were sharing best practice. Many bodies, whether local authorities or other public bodies—education trusts and the NHS spring to mind—are not aware of the opportunities and do not have that focus or direction, and therefore they do not do it. That has an impact on companies and organisations, including those in the voluntary sector, which do not include the requirement in their proposals, and everyone loses out as a result. As I have said, I have given examples of good practice, but they are not sufficient on their own. We need even more apprenticeships. It is not enough merely to celebrate what Liverpool city council has done; we need to see it being done across the board.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Is that not why it is so important to make it absolutely clear in statute that public bodies may require extra higher and advanced-level apprentices as part of a contract?

[Luciana Berger]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, who has made his point very eloquently.

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[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on introducing such a Bill. I have never been so lucky as to be successful in the ballot, but perhaps if I am here for another year or so I might finally get the success that has eluded me.

My hon. Friend has also been lucky in the Minister who is on the Front Bench today—the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd)—as he is a decent and good man. He and I sat here for many Friday mornings putting the Sustainable Communities Bill through the House. I hesitate to suggest, because I realise that I might be damning his career badly by this, that he truly does understand this kind of soft regeneration issue. If one took the Sustainable Communities Bill down to its last detail, one could have argued that it was not necessary because we could have done all the things in it without having to pass legislation. However, it was an empowering Bill and it meant a lot to the third sector. So my argument is that not only is this Bill a good one in its own right, but it follows the trajectory taken by the Minister in his own private Member’s Bill that was passed under the previous Government. I therefore have a lot of faith that his response will be hopeful and positive, and will allow this Bill to progress to the next stages, to allow my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)—I hope I may call him that—to table his amendments. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish would welcome him on the Committee.

I wish to draw on the experience of the London Legacy Development Corporation, which is undertaking excellent work in my constituency and neighbouring constituencies to transform the legacy of the Olympic games into an enduring benefit for local people. I hope that that legacy will endure for generations to come. Since October 2012, the LLDC has been delivering a large programme of construction works at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic park to clear the games-time overlay, including temporary venues, walkways and roads. It is connecting the park with the new roads, cycle paths and pedestrian paths that criss-cross over the site, connecting it to the surrounding area. It is also completing permanent venues, bridges and parklands for their legacy use.

The scheme is a £229 million transformation programme and it has presented the LLDC with its first opportunity to deliver against its strategic aim of being a catalyst for regeneration and convergence in east London and its public commitment in terms of the employment and skills benefit during post-games construction.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making a compelling case about how public procurement can lever in those skills and training opportunities for young people in quite a deprived part of the country, but is it not the case that too few public bodies in her constituency in east London are making use of those opportunities? Would my Bill not help to lever in those extra training opportunities as an enabling power for those public bodies?

[Lyn Brown]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reason I so want to talk about the LLDC is that it has an innovative way of delivery, which might help him in his arguments with our friend on the Government Benches about the issue of small companies not being able to deliver on this scale. We are talking about a new vehicle to achieve my hon. Friend’s aims.

May I say to my hon. Friend that I think he has missed an opportunity, but I am hoping he will correct that as we go on this afternoon, which is to draw attention to the wonderful Minister and encourage him, through our warm words and congratulations, and the heartfelt faith that we have in his abilities, to support the Bill today?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I do not wish to pile even more praise on the Minister, but I have every confidence that he shares our ambition to raise the skills and job opportunities of people in places such as Newham and Denton and Reddish and I am confident that when he comes to the Dispatch Box he will have lots of nice things to say about the Bill. We are not too far apart and what differences we have can be ironed out in Committee.

[Lyn Brown]

Indeed they can, and the Minister knows just how exciting such a Committee can be, having been through that process himself.

The LLDC’s focus has been on the creation of job and apprenticeship opportunities in legacy for local people, especially for young people and underrepresented groups who face significant barriers to entering or returning to the labour market. The principal vehicle for delivering those benefits has been embedding them as a requirement in procurement.

Through its social and economic policy, the legacy corporation has developed an approach that uses its procurement processes to assess a bidder’s track records and proposals for securing local social and economic benefits. I remind hon. Members that the LLDC is not some socialist organisation capturing the regeneration opportunities in east London. It is, in fact, a vehicle of the Mayor of London, who would not wish, I think, to be called “one of these outrageous socialist types”. He might possibly rail against such an accusation. It is his programme that has determined that the LLDC will use its procurement in this way.

One of the arguments made by the hon. Member for Shipley, who, sadly, is no longer in his place—I know that he has not left the Chamber because I am speaking—was that it would take too long to go through an assessment process for each of the preferred contractors to prefer the contractors who delivered on the apprenticeships. The gentleman who runs London obviously disagrees, because his processes are clearly about assessing a bidder’s track record and proposals for securing economic benefits and determining a contract based on those assessments. He also wishes to embed those commitments contractually and works in partnership with the contractors, operators, tenants and development partners to deliver them.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I do not wish to take the name of the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) in vain as he is not in his place—although he has left his presence in the Chamber in the shape of a lone copy of the Daily Mail. So let me ask my hon. Friend: is she aware whether the Mayor of London has had any problems with the European Commission as regards public procurement?

[Lyn Brown]

I am not. I would assume that we would have heard if there had been any particular difficulties with said establishment and the procurement processes for London.

As the Bill is not, as my hon. Friend said, about forcing people to do things, the important point is that the Mayor and his offices are working with contractors to develop and deliver his aims. It is not about forcing, but about enabling and empowering.

The Mayor also wants to focus on early intervention with contractors, so that they understand their requirements and co-ordinate delivery. That makes perfect sense to me.

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[Andrew Gwynne]

Is it not a good thing that my Bill would give the Mayor of London the ability to say to those contractors, “As Mayor of London, I expect a certain proportion of the apprenticeships that you are providing to be of a higher or an advanced level”?

[Lyn Brown]

It is indeed, but the dialogue with the contractors is clearly what is essential in this process, and my hon. Friend’s Bill provides the Mayor of London and others with a vehicle to say to them, “See? It is here in black and white. It is law. I am entitled to do this. This is something I am enabled to do by Parliament, but I would like to work with you as a contractor, to get the best from you and from the programme.”

The Mayor also delivers and develops interventions with the borough partners, so all the London boroughs are enabled to be in partnership with the programme. He works with Jobcentre Plus—let us face it, that can only be a good thing—and he works with the Greater London authority to embed best practice and partnership working to support contractors in fulfilling their obligations. How can that be a bad thing? The Bill provides the Mayor of London and his organisations with the opportunity to show contractors that they are not acting illegally by undertaking this process.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Does my hon. Friend think it is a good or a bad thing that her constituents in West Ham will have access to job adverts in their local jobcentre, rather than having to guess where such opportunities are advertised?

[Lyn Brown]

I absolutely do think it is important that we are working with jobcentres. In Newham we have an excellent programme called Workplace, in which local employers work with the local council and Jobcentre Plus to advertise local positions locally before they are advertised regionally or nationally. That can only be a good thing in an area with the deprivation indices that we have. It is one way of embedding into the area an economic and social legacy for the people that I represent.

The other good thing about what the LLDC is doing is that it adds value and avoids duplication with the existing employment and skills provision of the London boroughs. We are not talking about something that becomes unwieldy, or that is not welcomed by the other host boroughs. When we are recreating infrastructure and targeting delivery according to the needs of the park, we ensure that it is done in the most cost-effective way.

The LLDC is tailoring its approach to the specific needs of the contracts in the programme. We are not asking employers to take on apprenticeships and to have apprenticeships that are not consistent with what they are contracted to undertake. That is another good thing. The Bill would not require the LLDC to change its modus operandi at all; it gives a platform on which the LLDC can base its apprenticeship programme. Obviously, it promotes best practice in recruitment and promotes the London living wage or the construction working board agreements—whichever is higher. I am sure that every Member in the Chamber would applaud that.

There is a strong client commitment to delivering jobs and apprenticeships, which means ensuring that these elements are sufficiently weighted in the pre-qualification questionnaire and invitation-to-tender evaluations. The Bill sends an important message to bidders about the importance of this agenda to the LLDC. The need for apprenticeships is there. It is in the pre-qualification questionnaire. If you want to—I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker; I know that you will not want to qualify as a contractor at the LLDC, although you could should you wish to, of course.

Any company that wishes to qualify to take a contract with the LLDC has to submit a completed questionnaire. One of the questions in it is, “Are you prepared to offer apprenticeships?” If the company is not prepared to do so, it might get a bit cross. It might think to itself, “Why should I have to?” The Bill will point to the fact that the LLDC is entitled to place that requirement in its pre-tender questionnaire.

The LLDC makes sure that contractors are aware of everything in its procurement pipeline, and uses the principle of relevancy to identify appropriate evaluation questions and weighting. Externally, the LLDC ensures that bidders are clear about the regeneration aims and objectives of the LLDC—convergence and so on. I know that we all understand what that means.

Crucially, the LLDC provides contractors with enough information to know what kind of commitment they are making. It specifies the commitment that companies will have to make in order to get the contract. It is clear that companies will be monitored, evaluated and held to account for what they deliver or fail to deliver. The Bill will make sure that those companies understand that the LLDC is not asking anything of them that it is not entitled to do.

The LLDC asks bidders to set targets for apprenticeships for under-represented groups such as black and minority ethnic communities, disabled people, previously unemployed people, people who have been unemployed for a very long time, and women. I hope you do not mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I digress for a moment and say that one of the things that I liked about the apprenticeship programme for the building of the Olympic sites was how it encouraged women into construction industries.

One of the things I learned from sitting in a digger truck and trying to excavate the earth at the Olympic park was that employers liked women using their equipment, because we are gentler on it and the equipment lasts longer if women are employed to use it. I know this from my own experience of driving a car and using the clutch, but my husband disagrees somewhat.

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[Lyn Brown]

Indeed they do.

The LLDC also seeks a firm commitment to this approach in the procurement by its contractors, so not only is the LLDC looking at its own people, but at the secondary chain. The expectation of apprenticeships goes further than just the one tier. We know that a big contract is let to a contractor, who lets to subcontractors. The LLDC has ensured that procurement for apprenticeships goes further down the line than the initial contract. In future, should anybody ever query its right to do so, the LLDC will be able to point to the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish to show that it is quite entitled to ask for that commitment.

The LLDC will also evaluate its contractors on the proposals for working with boroughs to make sure that they are getting the most from those apprenticeships. I, like most hon. Members present, have an active third sector in the provision of training opportunities for young people. Community Links in my constituency is continually involved in finding young people who have become particularly disaffected at school or thereafter, helping to put them back on track. It will be able to refer to the LLDC a young person whom they think is right for an apprenticeship. That kind of partnership has real ramifications for our communities. If we ramp them up properly and use procurement in this way, and if we demonstrate by law that we, the LLDC and public bodies are entitled to use procurement in this very socially acceptable and socially manipulative way, we can see—

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making a superb contribution today. I commend to her the work of Stockport Engineering Training Association Ltd in my constituency, a training company that has been established by industries in the north-west, mainly engineering, railway and nuclear industries, to provide training and apprenticeship opportunities for young people. It is concerned that the number of schemes coming through its centre has fallen in recent years. Should we not address that through public procurement?

[Lyn Brown]

I agree with my hon. Friend. Giving local authorities and procurement authorities the confidence that they can use procurement in this way to create apprenticeships and use it for the benefit and betterment of our communities can only be a good thing. I am sure that the Minister will not close his ears to our entreaties to allow the Bill to continue into Committee.

Surely it is in everybody’s interests that contractors deliver jobs and apprenticeships and make the commitment to them, as the LLDC has, as a key partner in east London, bringing significant locally based employment and skills infrastructure to support recruitment needs. It encourages an open and regular conversation with contractors and their supply chains, beginning immediately upon the contract being signed. As we know, it begins before that, because that is what good relationships are about, but, make no mistake, when the contract is signed, it is expected that the companies will deliver and honour the commitments that they have made to the apprenticeships in those local areas.

We need to ensure that the changing trends in the construction industry, such as the higher levels of subcontracting and shorter construction programmes, have made it difficult for some firms to offer traditional apprenticeships. In response to that issue, and to ensure delivery on the public commitments, the legacy corporation has commissioned REDS10. I want hon. Members to remember that name. I do not want any Government Members to have palpitations; this is not a socialist programme. REDS does not refer to the colour of its politics—

[Andrew Gwynne]

Shame.

[Lyn Brown]

It is indeed. It is merely a descriptive word that the LLDC has chosen to deliver the transformation job and apprenticeship brokerage project.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The more my hon. Friend goes on, the more I warm towards the Mayor of London.

[Lyn Brown]

I am afraid that my hon. Friend is encouraging me to sit down, but I will continue.

REDS10 is a National Apprenticeship Service-approved apprenticeship training agency—isn’t that a mouthful? It is contracted to work with prime and subcontractors to broker apprenticeships and job opportunities for local people in the Olympic park transformation programme. REDS10 takes on the apprentices, pays their wages, provides their training and then places them with the subcontractors, allowing them to complete their training across different projects and under the guidance of multiple firms. Therefore, we do not need to disadvantage firms in a supply chain that are unable to provide a full-scale apprenticeship. Instead, they can contract their part of an apprenticeship scheme from REDS10 and make a contribution, which is agreed in the contract with LLDC. Smaller firms are then enabled to participate in the supply chain. Is that not a great idea? Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lyn Brown]

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that the LLDC has reported that its targets for BME communities, women and people who have been unemployed for a long period have all been met. It did say that employment for disabled people had been slightly under target, mainly due to non-declaration at the point of induction; people are not recorded as disabled in an apprenticeship because they do not self-identify at the point of application. The LLDC has done a sterling job.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making a compelling point. Apprenticeships are not a silver bullet in respect of employment; there is no guarantee of a job at the end of them. However, the real benefit is that upskilling the work force, giving them experience, skills and more advanced qualifications, opens so many more doors for them.

[Lyn Brown]

That is absolutely true, as many of us will know from people we meet in our surgeries and at our tea and coffee mornings. We also know it from the history of our own families. That has become of great relevance to me since I began to research my family tree following the speech I made in this place about the match-women’s strike. I was absolutely convinced that my mother must have had personal knowledge of the strike through oral history given the amount of detail she gave about it. I am still trying to get there, but I am absolutely sure that I am going to find that one of my family had at least a connection with those amazing and heroic women. So yes, I do agree that, as we know from our own experience in our own families, apprenticeships can be the essential first step on the rung of a ladder to a successful career.

In July 2013, the LLDC carried out an on-site survey that asked over half the work force—780 people out of 1,555—what their length of residency in the borough was, and 85% said that they lived in the London borough of Newham and had been for over a year. Even if they had come to the host borough only to participate in the games, to find a job through the games or because they had got a job or an apprenticeship at the games, they were still there a year later. I realise that a year is not a massive commitment to a community. I have traced my family back to the 1880s, and they have been resident in my constituency since then; I have to say that that is not bad. I am not expecting that of the trained apprentices who came through the LLDC, but their being there for a year indicates some kind of commitment to living in the area in which they were trained and given an opportunity.

Using this model of procurement to support and sustain good-quality apprenticeships strikes me as an absolutely excellent and commendable example for other public bodies to follow. This Bill is very much needed in order for the bodies involved to be able to be confident in their interaction with their supply chain. I am so grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing it to us today.

I urge the Government—the really decent Minister on the Front Bench and other hon. Members—to support the Bill and ensure that we can provide more opportunities, more training and more apprenticeships, and get more companies involved in the regeneration of our communities. That is what we are being asked to do today, and I ask the Government please to listen. I know the Minister may have been given a brief that tells him that he should not support a Bill such as this. We went through this with his Sustainable Communities Bill. If he had followed such advice, his Bill would not have got through. I urge him to be brave: support the Bill, support apprentices, and let us do the decent thing.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The speech by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) was a tour de force. She talks with great passion about an issue that is very much in her heart—the future opportunities of young people who live in and around her constituency. Many other hon. Members will be very concerned about the shockingly high rates of youth unemployment in this country.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on introducing this Bill. To be honest, it is a no-brainer: why would anyone not want to support it? It is short but very focused and clear in what it wants to do. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) clearly set out the advantages that local authorities and housing associations can gain in making a commitment to apprenticeships and how positive that is a for a local area. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) spoke about the situation in Liverpool, which is very similar to the one I find in Hull. Hull has twice the national average of young people not in education, employment or training, and every Hull MP has been grappling with this issue for some time: how can we ensure that our young people get the opportunities they so richly deserve? If we can squeeze money out of the public purse without adding any additional costs and in a way that benefits our youngsters, that is the way to go.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for contributing to this debate. Her points about Hull are pertinent. She will be aware that our parliamentary neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), is a sponsor of the Bill. When I approached him, he made precisely the same points: if we cannot procure, through public procurement, extra job opportunities for local people in Hull, when can we?

[Diana Johnson]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend puts the point so well. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) has always been a strong champion of ensuring that young people have the opportunities that they should have. Any Member who has read his book about his early life, which tells of his disadvantaged background and lack of opportunities, will understand why he wants to stand up and fight for young people.

I want to talk about the Bill from a business perspective. When I was growing up, my dad was an electrician and he had a small business. He trained as an electrician during the second world war and when he left the forces, he set up a small business with his sister, my Auntie Betty. My dad took the view throughout all his life in business that it was incumbent on him to train the next generation of electricians. I remember growing up in my household and hearing my dad say that he wanted to give a chance to young lads leaving school. He used to say that it was outrageous that some of the other, bigger businesses in the area—his was a very small business—did not train apprentices, and yet when a young person finished their apprenticeship, those businesses would go straight in to try to poach them to work for them without going through all the hard work that my dad did to train them.

I knew from a very early age how important it was to give young people those opportunities, and how good people in business—small businesses and others as well—who had a local commitment to their area and communities understood that they were there not only to provide services, but to make sure that young folk had an opportunity to train and get the skills they needed.

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[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making the case for smarter public procurement. It is not just the cost of the contract that must be considered, but the wider impact on the community. Does that not demonstrate why the Bill is right to insist that local job opportunities should be promoted in the local area?

[Diana Johnson]

That is absolutely right.

Research shows that, on average, an apprentice earns more than £100,000 more throughout their lifetime than other employees. We need to get such facts out there. Given the decimation of the careers service, we need to get the message across to youngsters about what an apprenticeship can mean and how it can enhance people’s opportunities. Of course we want young people to go to university if that is what is most appropriate for them, but apprenticeships are also valuable qualifications.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making another pertinent point. No doubt in her constituency, as in mine, the vast majority of young people will not have the opportunity to go to university or a higher education institution. The best way in which those people can get a higher education level qualification, as well as on-the-job training, is by doing a higher or advanced apprenticeship.

[Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

Before I finish, I pay tribute to Mark Walker, whom I took on as an apprentice in my office several years ago and who has proved all the points that I have just made. He has added value to the office, made it more productive and made it a more motivated and satisfying place to work. I have experience of apprentices in my constituency office, and I also have the experience of my dad, which says it all for me—if he thought apprentices were worth investing in, it is absolutely the right thing to do.

I am really pleased to be here today to support my hon. Friend’s Bill, and I hope that the Front Benchers will give it a fair wind so that we can move on to Committee.

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[Mr Wright]

I am glad my hon. Friend has contributed to the debate. I know how much she is passionately committed to giving young people a chance, particularly with apprenticeships. I have fond memories of going to Salford as Minister with responsibility for apprenticeships. We had launched the apprenticeships grant for employers. I met a tree surgeons firm in her constituency—I do not know whether she remembers. It could not afford to take on a young person, but we provided a £2,500 grant. I thought it was to help to pay the wages of that young apprentice, but it provided the equipment to allow them to scale up the tree and do the work required. That small firm wanted to help to bring on young people and to ensure that it gave young people a chance, making a difference—as I recall, it took on a 17-year-old. The Bill can do exactly the same.

My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish was right to highlight the importance of driving up quality. However, he also mentioned the need to expand opportunity. Often, we do not tell young people of the difference apprenticeships can make. People will be paid more over the lifetime of their career if they become apprentices. I am therefore baffled by the debate on clause 2, which is on the advertisement of work force vacancies. When there are opportunities, we should communicate them as much as possible. That is a no-brainer. Where better to do so than in the jobcentre? Clause 2 is essential. I want the Bill to pass on Second Reading, but, in Committee, we need to widen and expand it to ensure that schools, colleges, teachers and others are aware of apprenticeship opportunities.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is right that we could go further. I struggle to see what the problem is if Stockport, Tameside, Newham, Hull or Salford councils promote public procurement and apprentices through public procurement in their areas. Why should they not advertise those opportunities to young people in those areas?

[Mr Wright]

My hon. Friend is right. We have an enormous opportunity in my patch in the north-east. In Hartlepool, we have the makings of a great renewable energy and offshore wind supply chain. I know that the area my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) represents is in the same position.

We have had public procurement tenders, including for the Teesside offshore wind farm, in which no local firm got the work, meaning no local apprenticeship opportunities. What a scandalous waste of potential. I fail to understand why we should not use the opportunities from the public purse to give young people those chances and why those opportunities should not be advertised locally so that people in Hartlepool, Hull, Stockport and elsewhere can know about them. My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham made an eloquent and passionate contribution about the impact of the Olympics, a major project that should have benefited east London. It did benefit east London, but not as much as it could have. Those benefits should have been maximised.

I was very interested in the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). I always knew he wanted to take us back to the ’50s, but I did not realise he meant the 1550s and the Elizabethan age. He made an important point. He said that the Bill would undermine best value for the taxpayer because the additional apprenticeship opportunities would make procurement contracts more expensive. I disagree. One of our problems—with the Government, with the country—is this short-term, silo-driven approach. If we spend or save £1 in one area, no consideration is given to the impact elsewhere on the public purse. For example, no one considers the long-term consequences of cuts to local government for access to A and E or social care. We need to take a longer-term view. If, using the public procurement route, we can help to train our work force of the future, we will create many more opportunities and our economic potential will be greatly increased.

[Andrew Gwynne]

In terms of total spend, does not public procurement often make one of the largest contributions, if not the largest contribution, to the local economy, and is it not baffling, therefore, that Statler and Waldorf on the Tory Benches seem to think it falls outside the remit of the public domain to expect more training and skills opportunities?

[Mr Wright]

I found it astonishing too. I was particularly concerned by the 55-minute speech of the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). I am sure that those 555 18 to 24-year-olds in his constituency will be surprised to hear that he did not want apprenticeship opportunities advertised in his local jobcentre.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)]

This has been a very good debate. The speeches have been passionate, honest, often rooted in personal experience and, for the most part, gratifyingly free of tribal politics in relation to an issue that really should cross the party divide.

We have heard about some fantastic models of intelligent procurement, such as REDS10. We have heard about people in Liverpool, Humberside and other parts of the country who are demonstrating how procurement can be used to squeeze out the maximum value for the taxpayer, with the full encouragement of the Government. We also experienced the seismic revelation that the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) enjoys a bit of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on a Friday morning. I think that my friend and colleague earned the admiration of the House for his composure at that moment. He had to take some time out from the debate, but he retained his composure sufficiently to make an excellent speech, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). I think that the shade of Eric Forth would have been proud to hear both speeches. They conveyed warmth and cross-party support on the need for more apprentices when they posed the fundamental question of why this law is actually needed, which is the job that we, as legislators, must do.

First and foremost, I must genuinely congratulate the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) on his speech. It seems a very long time ago, but it was absolutely brilliant—not least because he secured harmony in the Gwynne household this weekend with his rhapsody about Denton community college, of which his wife is a trustee.

The hon. Gentleman spoke with real passion and conviction of his concern about the level of youth unemployment, which, at 7.6%, is clearly unacceptably high. As he knows, and has heard from Government Members, everyone recognises that the Bill is extremely well-intentioned. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) spoke to me personally about his support for it. We have taken it very seriously, and the context could not be more important. It is shocking that we as a country are wasting the potential of a million young people. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) was right to speak about that with passion and anger.

The country faces a huge challenge. I am not making a party-political point when I say that the fact that youth unemployment rose by 40% under the last Administration during good times is a source of real concern, and raises serious doubts about the skills and work-readiness of our young people. That has been reflected in survey after survey of employers. The fundamental question is this: how can we ensure that our young people benefit from the gradual recovery in the jobs market? That is a national challenge, and should be seen as such. It is a challenge not just for my party, the Labour party or any other party in the House, but for the private sector, the education system and civil society. So many people care about it that it is a challenge for funders such as the Big Lottery Fund and its Talent Match. So much good will needs to be harnessed to move the needle. That is why the whole debate about academic standards, access to informal learning opportunities for young people—I speak as the Minister for youth—the quality of career guidance and the success of new traineeships, which I greatly welcome, is so important. But the fundamental point of this debate—our level of ambition on the status and priority attached to apprenticeships—is important. It is fundamental, because there has been a missed opportunity; the status of apprenticeships has been too low over time, particularly as they are a win-win—the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) spoke well about that. The evidence is clear that apprenticeships are good for employers, as well as for employees. The evidence shows that those on advanced apprenticeships earn, on average, between £77,000 and £117,000 more over their lifetime, and 72% of employers reported that apprenticeships improved the productivity of their organisation.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am fully with the Minister in his argument, so far. Does he agree that if we are seeking to drive up the standards of apprentices, as well as to extend the capacity of apprenticeships, it is not wrong to give an empowering facility, as my Bill does, to public bodies to say to contractors, “We expect there to be a proportion of higher and advanced apprenticeships as part of this contract because it is good for our local economy”?

[Mr Hurd]

I have some reservations, which I am going to express, despite the shameless flattery that has been heaped on me, not least by the hon. Member for West Ham. I wish to give the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish some reassurance, not least because of the reservations we have about the need for this particular law, that the ambition he seeks on apprenticeships already exists. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North mentioned, this very week the Prime Minister was in Oxford talking about our ambition to be the best in the world. The hon. Gentleman will know that given the fiscal constraints we are under, what we choose to spend our money on does reflect our priorities. The fact of the matter is that we have spent £5.7 billion on apprenticeships since 2010; we have grown them by 1.5 million; and in 2012-13 the current provisional estimate is for about 500,000 apprenticeships. That is building on work that has gone before, but let us be clear: that is double what was available in 2008-09. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said, it is not just about numbers and growth; robust quality is also important.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The Minister is right to say that this is about how we spend the money. That is true of not only central Government, but other public bodies, so does it not empower local government, which does not provide many services directly itself but buys in services from contractors, if it is able to say, “This is what we expect because these are our budgets that we are handing over to you as contractors, and this is what we want in return”?

[Mr Hurd]

The point is that local authorities already have that power. This proposed law does not change anything in terms of regulation or the permission that the system gives to contractors at the moment.

I wish to finish making my point about quality. It is important, and we have put statutory standards in place to ensure that apprenticeships are real jobs and lead to recognised qualifications. I hope that that enjoys the support of the House. We want this to be employer-led. We want to encourage employers because it is absolutely in their interests, and that is how we sustain the momentum behind this as Governments come and go. That is why we have introduced incentive payments of £1,500 for smaller employers, because the attitude of small and medium-sized enterprises is important, to take on up to 10 new apprentices aged 16 to 24. As we have announced this week in the implementation plan, there will be trailblazer projects in the aerospace, automotive, digital industries, energy and utilities, electrotechnical, financial services, food and drink, manufacturing and life sciences and industrial sciences sectors. I hope I have convinced the hon. Gentleman that the ambition that he wants to see is there, not only to build on what was done before, but to take it to a different level.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I have no doubt that the ambition is there, but the Minister will have heard earlier about SETA in the Stockport part of my constituency, an organisation that was established by industry to get apprenticeships and training in a range of high-skill areas. It has raised concerns with me that the apprenticeships are not coming through in the rail industry, the nuclear power industry and so on. There is a role for public procurement in this.

[Mr Hurd]

I certainly agree that there is a lot more to do in supplying apprenticeships and pushing, nudging, encouraging and incentivising various sectors of the economy to be more ambitious and think more intelligently about how they can structure such opportunities.

I want to show the Bill the respect it deserves, and I do so as someone who has been in the same position as the hon. Gentleman and promoted a private Member’s Bill. I want to make it quite clear to him that the ambition he seeks is there. The question we need to ask ourselves is whether we need this law. As I was sitting here during the debate, I could almost see Eric sitting over there, getting ready to speak and to ask that question in a forensic way. We need to get beyond the good intentions; we are legislators. We need to ask ourselves with each snowflake that we add to the mountain of regulation whether we can justify it, whether it will make a difference and whether it will serve its purpose, however well-intentioned the promoter.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Of course, there has to be a problem if we are to address it through good intentions. I contend that there is a problem. Too few apprenticeships are coming through the public procurement route, which is why this Bill is absolutely necessary.

[Mr Hurd]

There is a problem, and we are wasting the potential of 1 million young people in this country. Apprenticeships are part of the response to that, as I have said, and the Government are very proud that we have effectively doubled the number of apprenticeships each year compared with 2008-09. We are in no way complacent, because as Labour Members have said, there is still a great deal more that can be done.

As for whether the law is needed, the point was powerfully made by Government Back Benchers that the existing law and procurement policy give the permission that the hon. Gentleman seeks. I would go further than that. A private Member’s Bill that I, as a Minister, picked up and championed, the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, extended that permission. The Act, which came into force in January with cross-party support, places a requirement on commissioners to consider the economic, environmental and social benefits of their approaches to procurement before the process starts. They must also consider whether they should consult on these issues. I put it to the hon. Gentleman that that process, with which contracting authorities around the country, particularly Liverpool and Birmingham, are very engaged, could include consideration of the benefits of any potential apprenticeships to be created under the contract. That is another tool in the box for those who are seeking to develop intelligent models of procurement and trying to squeeze as much value as possible out of every public pound that they are spending. That is exactly what we are trying to encourage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

I am obviously disappointed to disappoint the hon. Lady. That has rather spoilt my day. There is a fundamental point about value for money, which is that the processes and regulations we have set up absolutely allow what the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish wants and, as I said, the social value Act goes further in seeking that permission. We have set up a commissioning academy to support and create the space for people who are spending taxpayers’ money so that they can think more intelligently about how that can be spent. I give him my pledge that I will use what evidence I have to ensure that in my conversations about the use of that Act, and in the commissioning academy, we ask how apprenticeships can be boosted by those processes so that we can share and spread the best practice that exists and has been articulated extremely well by Opposition Members. As the hon. Gentleman generously said, the DWP has shown intelligent, forward-thinking practice by managing to get approximately 2,000 apprenticeships into its supply chain through its procurement practice.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way in the last remaining seconds. But does he not understand that, laudable though his legislation may be, it does not explicitly give local authorities the power to ask for higher level and advanced level apprenticeships, or to have them advertised in the local economy? That is crucial if we are going to change the life chances of the young—

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I could not agree more, in sharp contrast to my response to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). I look forward to visiting my hon. Friend in Gloucester to see in practice what he is talking about. The NCS is growing fast. We are seeing schools and colleges embrace it precisely because they see the value to their pupils of participating in a programme that helps young people develop the confidence, self-esteem and skills that will be valuable to them in life.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that Serco has cut the funding it makes available to charities under the National Citizen Service? What impact does the Minister think that will have on the charities delivering this important initiative?

[Mr Hurd]

Serco leads a consortium that includes many large and small charities. It is an important provider. We manage our providers very carefully, and when there are signs of underperformance, we take action to protect the taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman would not know anything about that because he represents a party that over time has not represented the taxpayer sufficiently. In the case of Serco and that consortium, we took action to protect the taxpayer, and I am proud of that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Solicitor-General will know that the specialist domestic courts that were established under the previous Labour Government helped to speed up prosecutions and reduce attrition. Why, then, have his Government gone about closing them down?

[The Solicitor-General]

Although referrals are down, the proportion of the caseload that is domestic violence or rape cases has held up strongly, so I do not think the hon. Gentleman’s allegation stands up. However, it is certainly true that we need to ensure that these cases are dealt with expeditiously.

G20

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are not planning to do that. Britain already has a very generous asylum system that operates under the rule of law. People who are genuinely fleeing persecution cannot be returned to those countries, but it is right that people should seek asylum in the first country that they flee to.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The global economic outlook remains fragile and the Prime Minister mentioned the role of monetary policy to support the recovery. What discussions has he had on the impact on the global economy and on international investment should the world’s leading economies—specifically the USA—move away from their standard monetary policies of providing easy money and low interest rates too soon?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman raises one of the questions that lay behind a lot of the discussions and debates on the global economy. What has happened in American markets recently, with a rise in long-term interest rates, has taken a lot of money out of developing countries and contributed, they would argue, to some instability. A year ago at the G20, the question was rather different. The argument was that because of accommodative monetary policy, the west was trying artificially to reduce its exchange rates. I understand the concerns of India and others. I think what it argues for is the importance of getting the economic fundamentals right, and that is what all countries have to take notice of.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jon Trickett]

This is a £2 billion industry, and what we propose would cover almost all the activity that we can identify in it. It would not need to be costly; we have sat down with the industry, taken their advice and listened to their criticisms. They have told me that to complete a form of the kind proposed would take only a few moments a year and dramatically open up the whole industry. We will come to the register when we discuss other clauses. I am sure that you, Ms Primarolo, will tell me that I cannot pursue a matter that is the subject of later amendments. We will come back to the costs of the register.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

rose—

[Jon Trickett]

I will give way to my hon. Friend and then wind up.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I noticed that the Minister did not respond to my hon. Friend’s important point that 95% of lobbying activity will not be covered by the Bill. Is my hon. Friend aware that the Public Relations Consultants Association goes even further, specifying that the Bill would cover as little as 1% of overall lobbying?

[Jon Trickett]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is of course right. The whole industry agrees without exception and universally—there is total consensus—that this Bill simply does not meet the challenge of the day. The industry wants a register. It wants transparency because it lives in the shadows. Many professional and ethical lobbyists feel that they are being criticised unfairly. They also feel that they have been undermined by a small minority of lobbyists who are behaving unethically and do not register on any of the voluntary registers. They want a level playing field—they are right to do so—and the public want to know how decisions are made.

The Chartered Institute of Public Relations summed up the situation perfectly when it said:

“The Government’s lack of engagement with the industry is reflected in a poorly drafted and narrow definition which does not accurately reflect the work undertaken by lobbyists, including those the Government perceive to be acting in the capacity of a consultant lobbyist.”

Let me return to the problem of who will be caught under the Government’s definitions and who will be excluded. It is reported that in 2011 the British financial sector spent £92 million on lobbying politicians and regulators. Documents have now come to light that suggest that they secured a series of governmental financial measures that were very favourable to the finance industry. However, all this lobbying activity was carried out by in-house lobbyists and therefore would not count within the definition of “lobbying” that the Government have sought to deploy in the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

The Smith recommendations were, so far as I can see, made on an assumption of stable public sector employment. Owing to the size of the public sector deficit that the coalition Government inherited, public sector employment has been falling since then by more than 400,000, and the size of the civil service is down by about 73,000 since the election, so the priority has been to reduce the amount of property we occupy, rather than moving employment from one part of the country to another.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The problems with finding savings from the Government estate are that many Departments are finding it difficult to surrender leaseholds early and to find private sector businesses to take up surplus accommodation, and are even having problems with selling freeholds because of the state of the property market, meaning that it is very unlikely that the full potential savings of £830 million will be met before 2020.

[Mr Maude]

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right on that. Actually, vacant space in the central Government estate is running at about 2.5%, compared with the national average of over 10% across the public and private sectors, so in fact Government Departments and agencies are not finding it impossible to surrender leases—they are doing so very effectively—or to sell properties where that makes sense, although our preference is to occupy the freeholds and get out of the leaseholds.

Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Thursday 29th August 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I may, I will make a little progress.

President Obama’s intentions are highly limited and so are ours.

The second area about which a lot of concern was expressed—very reasonably and understandably—was the evidence necessary to take a view about exactly what happened and who was responsible. It is right that there should be scepticism, particularly after 2003 and the events surrounding Iraq, and there is widespread scepticism in the country, but let us not let scepticism topple into outright suspicion of what are key persuasive facts. It is not for nothing that the Joint Intelligence Committee concluded

“that there are no plausible alternative scenarios to regime responsibility”

and that it was

“not possible for the opposition to have carried out a chemical weapons attack on this scale”.

There are eye-witness accounts, videos and social media.

We know that the regime has used chemical weapons on a smaller scale on at least 14 occasions prior to what happened last Wednesday, and there is no evidence that the opposition has these chemical weapons or controls stocks of chemical weapons. Neither does it have the artillery or air power to deliver them. That might not be sufficient for everybody, but I would simply suggest that legitimate scepticism should not sweep those very compelling facts under the carpet.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

It is being reported that No. 10 Downing street is briefing the media that the position of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is giving succour to the Assad regime. Will the Deputy Prime Minister take this opportunity to distance himself from and condemn that briefing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I wholeheartedly agree with—I know the Prime Minister does, too, as we all do—recognise, understand and in many ways share people’s anxieties in wrestling with this terrifically difficult dilemma. That is the spirit in which this debate has been conducted for close to eight hours and that is the spirit in which I believe we should treat the matter.

Another cluster of questions concerned the legality and legitimacy of any measures that might be taken. The hon. Members for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and many others spoke on this issue. The Attorney-General has confirmed that the use of chemical weapons in Syria constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity. The Government’s legal position, there for everyone to see, is also clear that the principle of humanitarian intervention provides a sound legal basis for the deployment of UK forces and military assets in an operation to deter and disrupt the use of chemical weapons, if the House, in a separate vote and a separate debate, were ever to decide to deploy. Let me be very clear on that point, because many right hon. and hon. Members expressed some anxiety about it: the motion in no way sends out an amber light message or is permissive of military action. Military action would only ever be undertaken by our country or be permitted or mandated by the House on the back of a separate debate and separate vote. In other words, right hon. and hon. Members can support the motion today and be entirely free to refuse or withhold their consent to military action, if that was put to the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Miss Smith]

There are various categories of eligibility depending on the status of the country in question—for example, the rules that relate to Commonwealth voters who are resident in this country. I would be happy to take a further look into that question in the light of any changes that my right hon. Friend might be referring to.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Does the Minister have any concern that a number of local authorities are cutting the money that is dedicated to electoral registration? If so, what is she going to do about it?

[Miss Smith]

The hon. Gentleman will have been eagle-eyed and read my written ministerial statement last week announcing £4.2 million to deal with exactly that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend is right that almost 50% of the supply chain is in the voluntary sector. We all know from our experience of such organisations what extraordinarily valuable work they do to get people ready for work and into work. We want to make the programme work.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Surely the Minister knows that New Philanthropy Capital has advised the Government not to repeat the mistakes of the Work programme. What lessons will he learn so that those mistakes are not repeated and so that third sector organisations and charities that want to help unemployed people are encouraged to do so?

[Mr Hurd]

I do not necessarily recognise that mistakes have been made. Payment-by-results is a tough and challenging regime, but each exercise will be different and the process will evolve. It is a better regime than paying for failure and mediocrity, which is what the Labour Government did. The next test is the probation reforms. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the detail of what the Ministry of Justice has produced, he will see that lessons have been learned on having more contracts, paying much more attention to how the supply chain is managed and investing in capacity building in the voluntary sector so that it can do more.