Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 26th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

I will vote for this Bill. I admit that I am sceptical about the enforceability of the age escalator, but fundamentally the legislation addresses a huge problem in our society. There can be no doubt that smoking is a killer, so it is our responsibility to seek to diminish the death toll. Vaping is a totally unregulated sector, and I fear that it is a gateway to smoking for many young people. Therefore, it is right that it, too, comes within the ambit of the Bill.

The Secretary of State said this afternoon that this is a “four-nations Bill”. I welcome that, and I trust that it is right. That is the point I want to test in my contribution, and I will seek reassurance from the Minister about it. The reason I want to test it is that Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland alone, is still subject to the EU’s tobacco directive. We are subject to the EU’s tobacco directive because it is one of the 289 EU laws listed in annex 2 of the protocol—or the Windsor framework, as it is now called—that remain in force in a part of this United Kingdom. Article 24 of the tobacco directive says:

“Member States may not…prohibit or restrict the placing on the market of tobacco or related products”.

Does this Bill, by its necessary steps, restrict the placing on the market of tobacco? If it does, it will fall foul of the tobacco directive and will therefore be unenforceable in Northern Ireland, because of our ridiculous subjection to foreign laws that we do not make and cannot change.

We have an illustration of what might happen, because in 2022 Denmark sought to introduce almost identical legislation. It had to withdraw it, and in withdrawing it, the Health Minister told the Danish Parliament on 6 April 2022:

“The ministry…therefore considers that a ban on the sale of tobacco and nicotine products to people born in 2010 or later would require an amendment to the European Tobacco Products Directive”.

On that basis, they withdrew it. Earlier this year, the Irish Republic was minded to introduce legislation like this, but it did not proceed for the same reason.

If we are in a situation where a part of this United Kingdom quite absurdly cannot be governed by laws that this Parliament wishes to make, we are in a very sad situation indeed. It is my fear that, like in Denmark, the imprimatur would not be forthcoming from the tobacco directive and we could therefore have a situation where laws that we want to make and apply throughout the United Kingdom cannot be applied because of our subservience to foreign jurisdiction. If that is so, it will be an appalling situation. The House will have an opportunity to do something about this when my private Member’s Bill comes before it on 6 December, and I trust that Members will take that opportunity to liberate Northern Ireland from the bind of foreign jurisdiction and foreign law.

There are vested interests who will try to challenge the Bill’s applicability in Northern Ireland because of the tobacco directive, and I am fearful of the line that the courts might take, because we have had some examples. This House passed—for better or for worse—the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023. It also passed the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Act 2024. I am not commenting on their merits; I am making it clear that when they went to the High Court in Belfast, both were declared inoperable in Northern Ireland. Why? Because of the supremacy of EU law.

If that were to happen with this Bill, it would be an absolute scandal. We would not be able to afford the people of Northern Ireland the same health protections that the Bill will afford to everyone else in the United Kingdom. And why not? Because we are subject to a foreign jurisdiction. It is the lifting of that jurisdiction that will bring us liberty to be governed as this House would wish us to be governed, and I trust that the Minister will be able to assure us that those fears are unfounded, that the Danes were wrong to withdraw their Act, and that our courts will—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I fully understand his concern. That is why this Government need to give credit to the previous Government, who worked so hard to make this a four-nation approach. I want to give him and the House the assurance that it is the responsibility of the UK Government to ensure the compatibility of the Bill with the Windsor framework. The Government have taken into account all domestic and international obligations in bringing forward this Bill today.

[Jim Allister]

It gives me no assurance if the Government’s commitment is to ensure compliance with the Windsor framework, because it is the Windsor framework that imposes EU law on Northern Ireland. Because the tobacco directive is one of the laws listed in annex 2 that continue to apply to Northern Ireland, it could trump this Bill. There is no point in the Government saying to this House, or to my constituents, that they will abide by the Windsor framework, because the Windsor framework binds us to EU law. It is only by setting it aside that we can have liberty.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am sorry to detain the House, but I make it clear that this is a United Kingdom law. It covers all four nations of the United Kingdom, and we are assured that it complies with the requirements of the Windsor framework. This law will stand.

[Jim Allister]

The previous Government told this House—and Government lawyers probably said the same—that the Rwanda Act would apply to Northern Ireland and that the legacy Act was unchallengeable, yet it turned out that both fell under the supremacy of EU law. On the face of it, the tobacco directive suppresses this Bill and still has legal force in Northern Ireland. If that is how it turns out, I would like to hear a commitment from the Minister that the Government will override any suppression of this law in Northern Ireland and stand up for UK sovereignty in my part of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

It is a pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the Government. I commend my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne), for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter), for Worthing West (Dr Cooper), for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey), for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper), for Cardiff West (Mr Barros-Curtis), for Dartford (Jim Dickson), for Bolton North East (Kirith Entwistle), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash) and for Bolton West (Phil Brickell) and, on the Opposition Benches, the hon. Members for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for Lewes (James MacCleary), for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan), for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and for South Antrim (Robin Swann), the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) and the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr Dillon), for a series of outstanding contributions this afternoon. Many of us on the Labour Benches remember the last Labour Government’s proud history of public health measures—indeed, some of us were in this place at the time. From the indoor smoking ban to putting an end to cigarette advertising, we took the bold action to drive down smoking prevalence, and the country is still feeling the benefits of those policies today. However, after 14 years of public health neglect, we have seen much of our hard work squandered. Health inequalities have grown worse, and life expectancy is stalling. Most appallingly, life expectancy is going into reverse in some communities.

[Afzal Khan (Manchester Rusholme) (Lab)]

I welcome this Bill. Some 6,000 children in Greater Manchester take up smoking each year, allowing tobacco and vape companies to profit from increasing health inequalities. If we eradicate smoking, Greater Manchester’s economy will gain over £2.5 billion each year, funds that could be allocated to our health and social care sector. Does the Minister agree that if we follow the recommendations of the smoking review by Professor Javed Khan OBE, who did an excellent job on that review, we have the unique opportunity to both save lives and reduce poverty, creating a healthier and more equal society?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution, not least because it allows me to place on record this Government’s thanks to Javed Khan for the work he did in his review of smoking. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because in the parts of Greater Manchester that he and I represent, health inequalities are stark and visible. We are going to turn them around. Our health mission pledged to tackle the social inequalities that influence health, and to ensure that children have the very best start possible, in which they are given the building blocks for a healthy life. That will be an immense challenge, but every member of this Government is up for the battle.

Colleagues have made a number of points, and I will try to answer as many as I can in the time we have left. First, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Harrow East for the work he has done on this issue over a number of years. I assure him that all tobacco products are covered by this Bill, including the chewing tobacco product that he referred to. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham, who has also been a passionate spokesperson for tackling smoking harm, is absolutely right to raise the issue of article 5.3. The new Labour Government take very seriously their obligations as a party to the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control, and we remain fully committed to that convention, including the important commitment, under article 5.3, to protecting public health policies on tobacco control from

“commercial and other vested interests of the tobacco industry”.

The shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), referred to the powers to bring in smokefree places. We will consult on extending smokefree places to include areas outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals in England. We believe that strikes the right balance between protecting the most vulnerable and recognising the pressures facing the hospitality sector. I want to make the shadow Secretary of State aware, though, that the Bill was designed in full consultation with, and to meet the needs of, the devolved Governments across the whole of the United Kingdom. It is a UK Bill, with powers that meet the requirements of each of the component parts of our country, and I reiterate that as far as England is concerned, this Government will seek to consult on schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals only.

A number of Members, including the hon. Member for Harrow East, raised the topic of stop smoking services. We are putting an extra £70 million into local stop smoking services, which could help with up to 200,000 successful quits a year. We are still rolling out a smokefree pregnancy incentive scheme, which will support pregnant women in quitting and ensure that more babies do not suffer a hit to their life chances before they are even born.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I am very sorry that I was not in the Chamber for the beginning of the debate. I have very strong views on this matter, because my father died of cancer—I quit 20 years ago, thank God. It occurs to me that we have heard from other people who have quit, and that we who have quit could be mobilised to help others quit. Why do the Government not use us? We could do a lot of good and provide a lot of help.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I think the hon. Gentleman has just talked himself into a job. He is absolutely right that the best people to advocate for stopping smoking are former smokers.

We will still encourage adult smokers to switch to vaping through Swap to Stop in England, and I am delighted that localities have asked for over half a million starter kits so far. On advertising regulations, of course the consultation will take place after Royal Assent, but I hope that I can assure the hon. Member for Harrow East that we will take away his point about ensuring that the NHS can still advertise Swap to Stop under those regulations. On a tobacco industry levy, fiscal matters are for the Treasury, but I am sure that his views and those of others have been communicated to Treasury Ministers.

The hon. Member for Lewes mentioned the rise of the black market. This is a line that has been parroted by the tobacco industry for years, so we need to spell out the facts. Whenever Governments of any guise have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, the black market actually has not prospered. Consumption of illegal tobacco has gone from 15 billion cigarettes nearly 25 years ago to just one 10th of that amount last year, and when the last Labour Government raised the age of sale from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes fell by a quarter. However, this requires better enforcement, and we will use every second of the generously long buffer period to support businesses in preparing for and implementing the changes, including through information campaigns. We are providing £10 million to trading standards to increase their capacity and capabilities next year, and there is £100 million for Border Force and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over the next five years to tackle illicit and under-age sales. The Bill also allows trading standards to issue on-the-spot fines of £200, and to reinvest the proceeds of those fines, and indeed the licensing regime, back into further enforcement.

[Bob Blackman]

Will the Minister consider ensuring that the fines are raised by at least inflation each year? Fines could be increased on a scale, to make sure that they keep progress with changes.

[Andrew Gwynne]

We have already doubled the fine proposed in the previous Government’s Bill, which is a step. I listened very carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and he might wish to pursue it in Committee, should he be fortunate enough to be a Committee member. I look forward to the debates we might have.

A number of questions about the licensing regime were posed by the shadow Secretary of State, as well as by the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and others. I reassure the House that across the sector, there is broad consensus among retailers about a licensing scheme; more than four fifths of them have expressed their support. Unlike alcohol, there is no licensing requirement for tobacco. A lot of people outside this House would find that hard to understand. They assume that convenience stores, supermarkets and other places that sell alcohol are licensed in a similar way to sell tobacco products, but that is not the case. We will bring in a licensing scheme, because we know that will have a huge public health impact, as other licensing regimes do.

[Tristan Osborne]

When I was on a council, I had a portfolio managing licensing. Councils already manage significant licensing functions, so it would be very convenient to simply add this function to those. That would not necessarily be a significant bureaucratic hurdle, as has been said.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Local government will take the lead on this matter, and we will consult widely on how we bring forward the licensing regime, and on how we implement it through secondary legislation, following that consultation. An impact assessment will be prepared before the secondary legislation is introduced, but I want to work with local government across England—I am sure that ministerial counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom seeking to bring in a licensing regime will do the same—to ensure that we get this right for local government. That includes ensuring that the cost of running a licensing regime is met by the regime itself.

[Mr Brash]

We have mentioned the fact that local government is responsible for public health. I have had our director of public health email me just today to say how supportive they are of this Bill. Local government wants this opportunity to try to improve the health of local people. The fears that local government would be under pressure are simply wrong, are they not?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. From the engagement that I have had with members across all parties in local government—elected members, officers and directors of public health—I know that they want these measures. They are up for introducing them, and for helping us to get them right.

The hon. Member for North Shropshire raised the issue of ID checks, as did a number of others. I gently say to those who expressed a degree of scepticism that most retailers already follow recommended practice and regularly ask customers for ID. We are stopping people from ever starting smoking, and 83% of smokers start before the age of 20. That means that someone who has never previously smoked is highly unlikely to want to take up smoking later in life. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England for 14 to 30-year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050 with the measures in this Bill.

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

As a former teacher, I hope that the Government are working across Departments. Will we work with the Department for Education to ensure that these conversations are had in our schools, right from the beginning, at primary level, and all the way through?

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is absolutely crucial. With this legislation, we have to make sure that we do not take our foot off the pedal when it comes to education and informing the next generation of children of the harms of smoking and vaping through our public health initiative.

[Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)]

My constituents in Paisley and Renfrewshire South need a health service that moves from sickness to prevention, so can my hon. Friend confirm that this UK-wide Bill will impact my constituents? Has he had discussions with the Scottish Government about ensuring its implementation north of the border?

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is an important point, and it allows me to place on record my thanks to the Health Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for how they have approached our desire to bring all parts of the United Kingdom together to make a smokefree United Kingdom, not just a smokefree England, through this legislation. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend that I have had incredibly fruitful conversations with the Health Minister in the SNP Scottish Government. She is as wedded and committed to this Bill and its measures as we are in this House today. I am reassured that across the whole United Kingdom, we will be walking in step to ensure that the next generation of children never takes up smoking.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Andrew Gwynne]

I will not give way now, as I have to end my speech. I know that you are keeping a careful eye on the clock, Madam Deputy Speaker.

If I had had more time, I would have talked about the huge public health benefits of the Bill that will do so much to prevent death, dementia and disability in old age. I could have gone into further detail about the economic benefits of the Bill, such as getting people back into work and saving untold sums of money for our NHS, but, from my perspective, the single most important thing that the Bill will do is tackle those stark inequalities across our country, because this fight is personal to me.

I have seen the harmful effects of tobacco on the people around me my entire life. As a schoolboy, I was educated about the harms of smoking, but it did nothing to stop a number of my peers from getting addicted to cigarettes. As an MP, I have seen at first hand how tobacco has devastated deprived communities across our country, not least in Greater Manchester. As the Minister for public health, I am determined to end the cycle of poverty and ill health, the blight of addition, disease and despair caused by smoking. No longer will it sap the strength of our cities—Stoke, Sunderland, Salford and so many others. This is the will of His Majesty’s Government, this is the promise of the Bill, and I urge colleagues across the House to vote with us to protect their constituents and do the right thing.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We cannot hear; we will come back to you in a moment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

Q Good morning, CMOs. I would like to ask about the additions to the Bill; it is of course a reincarnation, as Professor Whitty says, of an earlier Bill from the previous Government, although we have sought to go further. In your professional opinion, what impact will the additions to the Bill have in terms of public health benefits for the four nations?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: May I take one impact that extends my previous points about outdoor smoking, and then maybe pass on to Sir Gregor and Sir Frank? For outdoor smoking, the previous Bill—the very good Bill put forward by the previous Government—did not have anything that addressed the needs of current smokers. It also did not address the needs of people exposed to smoke, despite the fact that, like over 88% of the population, they are not smokers and many of them are medically vulnerable.

The Bill allows the Government to take powers to prevent outdoor smoking, first with additional public consultation and then additional measures in Parliament. Ministers—you, Minister, have demonstrated this in the House of Commons—have indicated the areas where they intend to use these powers to reduce the risks of passive smoking. These are the areas of the greatest vulnerability: around hospitals, where some of the most medically vulnerable are highly concentrated; and around children’s playgrounds, where children are—I think everybody who does not have shares in cigarette companies would agree that exposing children to second-hand smoke is an unacceptable thing to do. That is one area where the Bill has gone further than the previous one. Maybe Sir Frank might want to add to that.

Sir Francis Atherton: In Wales, we have had smoke-free hospitals, schools and play areas since 2021, under our earlier public health legislation, and it is completely non-controversial. There are clearly issues around implementation and enforcement, particularly around hospitals, but if you go now to schools and hospitals there is no controversy whatever. So that will not make a huge amount of difference in Wales.

The one thing that will make a difference, I think, is aligning the vaping legislation with the smoking legislation. I say that because, going back to the earliest question, vape use among young people in Wales has shot up over recent years—8% of 11 to 16-year-olds regularly vape, up from 5% and a bit in 2021. It has absolutely shot up. Bringing together vaping and tobacco legislation in terms of vape-free and smoke-free places is a really important thing and one for which I have been arguing for quite some time.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Ministers and officials have worked really hard, across the four nations, to put together a piece of legislation that is relevant to all four nations. How important do you think it is that the Bill extends powers and responsibilities on public health across the four nations?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Perhaps I can begin this answer; my colleagues may then want to come in. Alignment in this respect is really important, partly because of the clarity of message that exists to the public around about what is legally acceptable in relation to smoking and to vaping. Alignment across tobacco smoking and vape use is similarly important across the four nations.

Public health messaging is incredibly important. Having a consistent message across our four nations helps to ensure that the message is much more clearly understood and adhered to by the public. I welcome the attempts by Ministers to ensure that alignment exists within the Bill, so that as we go forward we give protection to those who do not smoke in the way that we are planning on doing with the Bill as it proceeds.

One of the most important aspects is to make sure that, although in Scotland, for instance, legislation prevents smoking within 15 metres of the likes of public places such as outside a hospital, we bring that much more closely in line with where the Welsh position is—so to the whole of the hospital grounds. Extending it to protect, as Sir Chris has said, more vulnerable places such as play parks is something I would certainly welcome in Scotland. We should do that in step across the four nations. I again emphasise that public messaging is incredibly important in making sure that we get the adherence we seek.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q I turn to two criticisms of the Bill raised on Second Reading. We have already touched on some of the libertarian arguments, but I would like to know whether you think the issue of choice is addressed by the Bill. Do you have any sympathy with the libertarian argument, or do you think that the Bill—tackling tobacco and child vaping—is something that the libertarian argument does not stand up against?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I have already given my view that, although I have a lot of sympathy for choice and freedom arguments in many situations, tobacco addiction and second-hand smoking are not among those.

Sir Francis Atherton: If anything, choice is undermined by the addictive nature of nicotine. It is incredibly addictive. We know that now; we have known it for many years, actually. The tobacco industry has known it for many years, which is why the industry, through vaping and other means, is quite keen to have the next generation of people in our countries addicted to nicotine. Choice is completely undermined and taken away by the addictive nature of the product being marketed.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: Nicotine addiction is horrific. Nearly 9,000 people a year still die in Scotland as a result of tobacco-related health issues. Two thirds of people who begin smoking are potentially at risk of dying as a consequence of their addiction. We know that the industry targets both the younger age spectrum and vulnerable groups to sustain their industry.

If you have ever spoken to a patient with a serious tobacco-related illness such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, who is now suffering from the consequences of that—the limited ability to live their life—and the addictive nature of the disease, you soon begin to learn that they are filled with nothing but regret and guilt for the part that their addiction has played in the development of the disease. The stigma associated with tobacco-related disease is quite terrible for those who experience it. The basis of that is this lack of choice that they have developed as a consequence of the addictive nature of the nicotine products.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: If I could just add a specific example from—

[The Chair]

Sorry, Sir Chris, but before we go further, I am trying to establish whether Sir Michael McBride has contact with us yet. If you can speak, Sir Michael, then we will know whether we have connection. It is as simple as that, really.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: Yes. The problem is not on my side, so I asked that you unlock me. I think I have now been unlocked, so perhaps I can speak.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear evidence from Hazel Cheeseman, chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health; Sheila Duffy, chief executive of ASH Scotland; Suzanne Cass, chief executive of ASH Wales; and Naomi Thompson, health improvement manager at Cancer Focus Northern Ireland. We have until 10.55 am for this panel. I call the first Member to ask a question—the Minister.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Good morning, all. As we know, this is a resurrected Bill from the previous Government, with additional measures. How do you think it compares with the previous iteration?

Hazel Cheeseman: We are all delighted to see this Bill return, and in such a strong form. There is complete consensus across the ASHs of the four nations that this is a Bill that is needed, wanted and workable.

As the chief medical officer said in the previous session, the improvements in this Bill are that there are more provisions that will assist in reducing smoking among people who are already smoking and in protecting those exposed to second-hand smoke. It also creates a comprehensive set of regulations around all tobacco and nicotine products and provides us with that future-proof—the flexibility to respond to evidence as it emerges and changes and to the market as it emerges and changes over time.

The Bill is enormously welcome for its comprehensiveness and robustness, and therefore for the opportunity to significantly reduce the uptake of smoking among the next generation and to aid people in quitting. The Minister will not mind me saying that I think there is more that the Government will need to do to accelerate that progress, in terms of investing in support for those who are already smoking and ensuring that we have the right strategy in place for that, but the Bill is a really good step in the right direction.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q What impact have tobacco control measures had over time to date, and what impact do you expect this Bill to have in addition?

Sheila Duffy: We have seen that tobacco control measures work. We have seen that they have reduced adult smoking rates over time. The points made by the chief medical officers were well made: we are looking to the generation growing up now in the UK; we are looking to protect them from addictions that so many now regret and that are claiming lives unnecessarily.

Suzanne Cass: I would add that tobacco control policies that are put in place are popular, and are really welcomed among members of the public; they are also welcomed among people who smoke. There is a huge surge of public support for tobacco control policies, and that grows—it does not diminish—as we introduce new policies; it grows, and that public support increases.

Naomi Thompson: In Northern Ireland, we are working towards a smoke-free Northern Ireland by 2035, and the reality is that tobacco control over the past 10 years has managed to bring things down to a stage where 2035 has potential. That is why tobacco control needs to continue. A Bill like this is just brilliant to keep that focus. If we can prevent people from starting, that will be absolutely key to making Northern Ireland, certainly, smoke-free by then.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Let me ask a question of Suzanne Cass. We heard from the CMO for Wales in the session before that the extension of smoke-free to outdoor places—such as outside hospitals, in playgrounds and outside schools—is already in place in Wales. What lessons do we need to learn from that?

Suzanne Cass: As you know, ASH Wales and the Welsh Government have been at the forefront of implementing smoke-free spaces. We campaigned for smoke-free playgrounds and smoke-free school gates, both on a voluntary basis. Luckily, the foresight of the Welsh Government has made that provision legislation when it comes to hospital grounds, playgrounds, sports grounds, mental health units and a raft of other smoke- free spaces. We are obviously delighted that the Welsh Government has implemented that legislation.

The legislation has made a huge difference, in that it has allowed a platform for communication—communicating the message that it is not okay to smoke around children. There is a massive amount of public support for that messaging, and we have had the opportunity to communicate it. When it comes to smoke-free hospital grounds, a lot of us are looking at that legislation and the possibility of implementing it.

We have obviously had the legislation in place in Wales since 2021, and what we would say on the lessons learned is that there has to be a package when it comes to implementation. We cannot just legislate; we need to be looking at the support that is in hospitals for smokers to quit, we need to have trained staff and we need to have enforcement on the ground. There needs to be a whole package that comes with that legislation. That is the enormous lesson that we learned.

We implemented that legislation in 2021—in the midst of covid, which was tricky—but we have had problems around enforcement and problems around compliance. It is a very different kind of tobacco policy from that in the other smoke-free spaces. When it comes to the other smoke-free places—playgrounds, sports grounds and other areas like that—there is a lot of compliance, but when it comes to hospital grounds, you have to do a bit more of the legwork. But it is well worth it, because what comes with that is on-site hospital support for stopping smoking, and the message to everybody coming on to that site that smoking is not okay and that there is support available if you want to quit. So it comes with a whole raft of measures that support that smoke-free message.

[The Chair]

I call Caroline Johnson—apologies; I should have called you before the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q Smoking is a huge cause of cancers. Do you expect that this Bill will reduce the number of cases of cancer and increase the age of people who get cancer across the country?

Dr Ian Walker: First, thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. I start by thanking Parliament for boldly introducing this Bill; it is genuinely world leading. I have spoken to organisations across the world that are envious of the position we find ourselves in. That is a very important question, and the answer is absolutely yes—I think this Bill will be very important in reducing the number of cancers caused by smoking tobacco. We know that there is no bigger thing we could do to actually influence that going forward for the next generation and generations thereafter.

As you have heard this morning, we know that we still have 6 million people smoking across the UK, and we know that we can expect hundreds of thousands of cases of cancer caused by smoking over the term of the next Parliament. As we move towards a truly smoke-free generation over the next 20, 30 or 40 years, we will absolutely expect to see the number of cancers caused by smoking—and, alongside that, the number of other illnesses associated with smoking—reduce.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Can you tell us about the evidence of the impacts of second-hand smoking on cancer in your case, Dr Walker, and on asthma and lung conditions in your case, Sarah? What difference do you think that the measures outlined in the Bill will have on those conditions?

Dr Ian Walker: To start with smoking and cancer, the links between passive smoking and cancer, particularly lung cancer, are very clear. It is fair to say that there is less evidence around different scenarios that you might predict through this Bill, such as different outdoor environments and so on, but that is more because those studies have not necessarily been done. It is an important point to make that there is an absence of evidence, rather than evidence of absence.

You heard from the CMO of England this morning that if you can smell cigarette smoke, you are exposed to it. The direct risk, then, is linked to how long you are exposed to it, how concentrated the environment is, how close you are to it and so on. Nevertheless, passive smoking is harmful—not just for cancer, but for vulnerable people with many other conditions as well—so we are very much supportive of the introduction of smoke-free places and the ability to restrict people smoking in particular outdoor spaces.

Sarah Sleet: When it comes to people with lung conditions, second-hand smoke is incredibly important; it is a well-known, severe risk factor for people with lung conditions. About one in five of us in the UK will experience a lung condition—there are around 7 million people with asthma and about 1.6 million people living with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Those are two major conditions that are profoundly affected by second-hand smoking, and are clear risk factors in terms of deaths from asthma and people being hospitalised with exacerbations, so it is incredibly important that we deal with the issue of second-hand smoking. People said earlier that there is no choice about second-hand smoking, and yet it profoundly affects those with lung conditions. It is incredibly important that we ensure that we protect those vulnerable people as far as possible.

When it comes to the discussion about how far we should go in terms of smoke-free and vape-free places, we would consider going further than what has been suggested already and looking at other areas to make smoke-free. I know there has been discussion about hospitality and trying to balance the potential economic impact that has been talked about if we make the outside of hospitality places smoke-free. However, we think, given the balance between the public health impact and what we have seen with smoke-free indoor spaces and its impact on business, we could go further and should go further, there.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The Bill takes powers to introduce restrictions on vaping, which are obviously subject to consultation after the Bill receives Royal Assent. What factors do you think will need to be taken into consideration as part of that further consultation?

Sarah Sleet: People with asthma and lung conditions are in the middle, where they are affected by both smoking and vaping. It is really important to get the balance right. Smoking is terrible—it is terrible for people with lung conditions—and we need to make sure we can drive down smoking rates as much as possible.

Vaping can play a part in helping with smoking cessation, but it should only be used for smoking cessation. People who have never smoked, and definitely children, should not be taking up vaping. We see vaping as a staging post to being completely nicotine-free. It is important to get the balance right between making vaping available for those who need smoking cessation and not encouraging people to try vaping or to keep vaping longer than they need to.

The legislation is good in allowing that flexibility for adjusting over time, as we get more evidence in. It is really important to put evaluation in place and make sure that robust evaluation does flow through over time, so we can adjust and respond to it. Traditionally—certainly in respiratory diseases—there has generally not been enough research and evaluation, so we need to correct that now.

Dr Ian Walker: First, I want to confirm that we are very much supportive of taking those powers. I think one of the real strengths of the Bill is the ability to adjust, moderate and titrate those powers and the actions that we take over time, not just as new evidence emerges, but as the tobacco industry and new products may emerge to try to circumvent the regulation that is in place. That is a really important part of the Bill.

I think the crux of the question was about what is important to consider through the consultation. From our perspective, it is important to get a balanced view on what the right actions are in this area. Of course we all agree that we want to limit, reduce and stop access for children and young people and to limit the appeal to never-smokers, while balancing that carefully against making cessation tools available to people who are trying to quit. It is important not to forget the 6 million people who are currently smokers and the long-term health implications ahead of them. We need a balance so that it is as easy as possible for those people to quit when they have chosen to do so. There will be many balancing features and balancing points of evidence that will be really important through the consultation in coming to the right outcome.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q In a nutshell, how important is it that the measures in the Bill are passed?

Dr Ian Walker: Critical. Without a doubt, there is no single bigger action that you could take to reduce the cancer burden on the country. The cancer burden sits at a very personal, individual level for people getting their own diagnosis; it sits at a family level and at a friend level. It also sits at an economic level for the country and at an NHS level, in terms of the burden that smoking-related illnesses cause for the NHS.

From my perspective, this is a world-leading piece of legislation. It is absolutely an opportunity for generational change and a long-term legacy that will see our children and grandchildren never able to legally buy tobacco in the UK and never exposed to the harms that that would cause them.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Is there any research into passive vaping risks to bystanders, who do not have a choice if someone is vaping next to them?

Sarah Sleet: As I said earlier, the research evidence around vaping harms is currently very poor. There has not been enough. It takes a long time to build up evidence of things that are generally very progressive rather than having an immediate impact, so we will have to wait. We need to put that in place, and we are going to have to wait to get that evidence back.

We have had anecdotal reports from our beneficiaries and those who contact the organisation about places—particularly in closed spaces, but sometimes outside—where there is a concentration of vaping. It is that classic thing where you go through a door and suddenly everybody around you is vaping immediately outside it. We get reports that that exacerbates people’s asthma and sometimes their COPD, but they are anecdotal. We really need the evidence base to support what is happening.

Dr Ian Walker: The only thing that I would add specifically from a cancer perspective is that although there is very little long-term evidence, because the products have not been around long enough and the cumulative effects have not been seen yet, what we do know, based on the current evidence, is that vapes are far less harmful than cigarettes. You heard the advice earlier that if you smoke it is better to vape or take other nicotine products, but if you do not smoke you should not vape, because we do not know yet what the long-term effects will be. In particular, we are very light on evidence on what the impact of vaping will be on bystanders.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Andrew Gwynne wishes to move an amendment to the programme motion.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

I beg to move a manuscript amendment:

That the Order of the Committee of 7 January 2023 be varied by leaving out from “Aneurin Bevan University Health Board” to end of table and insert—

[The Chair]

I welcome the panel again, although I was not here for this morning’s sitting. We will now resume by hearing oral evidence from David Fothergill, chairman of the Local Government Association’s Community Wellbeing Board, Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz, executive director of public health and strategic partnerships and vice president of the faculty of public health at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and Alison Challenger, tobacco and vapes lead at the Association of Directors of Public Health.

For this panel, we have until 2.40 pm. The floor is now open to any members of the Committee who wish to ask questions, but we would traditionally ask the Opposition spokesperson to ask the first question, so, Dr Caroline Johnson, the floor is yours.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence this afternoon. As we have two of my fellow public health colleagues giving evidence, could I ask what the general response to the Bill has been from the public health community? Are there any significant suggestions from the public health community of areas that we should consider further?

Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz: From the public health community, it is widely accepted and supported. It gives us a great opportunity not only to increase the conversation, but to broaden it. How we embed the legislation into practice will be key: making sure that we are getting it to the point of delivery where we can effect change in terms of protecting our populations in the most effective way, making sure that we have a focus on smoking cessation, that we have a consistent and unified approach, and that we have the agility and adaptability to target different cohorts and different populations effectively. From the public health perspective, though, the Bill is hugely supported.

Alison Challenger: Similarly, from the Association of Directors of Public Health, the Bill is very much welcomed. It will represent a sea change in reducing harm caused by tobacco, which is still our biggest killer. Significant numbers of people continue to smoke and are still addicted to smoking. The product itself is not only extremely dangerous but extremely addictive at the same time. We welcome these measures to address that.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

Q I thank the LGA for the support and engagement that we have had in drawing up the measures. Do you think that the Bill gives local authorities the right tools in relation smoking and vaping? How can we best work with colleagues in local government to get this right and ensure that it is workable on the ground?

David Fothergill: The engagement has been really positive and constructive. We have faith in the Bill and that it has the right intention, the right measures and the right provisions. Our concern is around the funding, the timing and the pipeline of trading standards. The key thing for us is that it is an empowering Bill; it empowers local authorities. If you tried to legislate for every single local authority to implement it in the same way, we would run into some quite difficult conversations and difficult times; it would make enforcement more difficult. Allowing local councils to do what is right for them is the route to go.

People who sit on licensing committees have local understanding. I can give you an example. Should we ban the sale of tobacco within 100 metres of a school? That would be quite easy to do in an urban area, but I look after villages. If you do that, they have lost their only shop. People would not be able to go to that shop to buy legally. So you have got to have local knowledge. It is the right Bill, but we need to make sure that it is an empowering Bill for local authorities to implement in their local communities.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Of course local government has been at the forefront of enforcing existing tobacco measures. What lessons can we learn from the experience of local government in terms of enforcement to date?

David Fothergill: It is very much about keeping our feet on the ground. Let us be honest: trading standards are under a lot of pressure and have been cut over the last 10 years. Trading standards have responsibility for enforcing over 300 pieces of legislation, so there is a lot of pressure on trading standards; but I think that by working with retailers and building the relationship locally and ensuring that we use enforcement as the final tool, we can work very well in our local areas.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Professor Daszkiewicz—I hope I have pronounced that right—we heard earlier from the chief medical officer of Wales and from representatives of Action on Smoking and Health Wales about the extension of outdoor smoke-free spaces in Wales. What can we learn from the experiences of Wales in extending to schools, hospitals and children’s playgrounds?

Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz: It is a really useful question. It is about looking at it through multiple lenses. So there is the enforcement element of it, but there are also the elements that go behind that. If you take hospitals as an example in terms of having NHS smoke-free sites, enforcement is part of that, but it is also about having cessation services in place. If you have people going in for elective surgery, for example, you have got a period of time where you can put in a smoking cessation intervention. It is a “waiting well” method, if you like, so that people go in for surgery in a way that makes for the best possible outcomes, and have an opportunity to either get towards a quit or at least not go in smoking. That enables patients not to be going outside and using cigarettes and so on, which enables that smoke-free site and also creates better outcomes for our patients. So, we do need to think about that.

There has to be a common-sense approach. We know that vaping is a tool towards quitting smoking; we recognise that is part of the process. Where we can get people off tobacco smoking, that is crucial, particularly around health and wellbeing. The open spaces element and the public spaces element is a part that we have really focused on in Wales. The learning from that is still going on; it is not the end of the road. We are learning all the time, adapting to new evidence and making the changes that we need to make to enforce that more consistently, but in a fair way for our population.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The measures in the Bill include the introduction of a licensing scheme for England, for Wales and for Northern Ireland. Scotland already has its own arrangements, which the Bill will seek to extend. What would you like to see from a licensing scheme?

David Fothergill: We would like to see a licensing scheme that is very aligned with the alcohol licensing scheme, although there clearly cannot be a single scheme. The four provisions within the alcohol licensing scheme brought in by the Licensing Act 2003 were preventing crime and disorder, ensuring public safety, preventing public nuisance and protecting children from harm. If we can build those provisions into this legislation for the licensing of the sale of tobacco and vapes, that will give us enough to work on. I would also say that the flexibility we need at a local level remains critical.

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Q My first question is on the enforcement element. We have had some correspondence and feedback that the £200 level is too low. I wonder whether councils or the Local Government Association have a view on the appropriate level. Conversely, if the level were too high, it would potentially damage high streets by loss of trade and shops closing because of fear. Is there a worry in the local government community that we could see high street shops closing as a result of enforcement? Again, those are some of the comments coming out of the correspondence we have received.

David Fothergill: I will take the fines element first and then talk about the cost of licensing for those retailers. A fine of £200 is quite a low figure. I think it was £100 previously, so it has been increased. If you pay within 10 days, it goes from £200 to £100. If you sell 40 vapes in one day, you have paid your fine. Some retailers—very few, because the vast majority are scrupulous—will take the view that they could sell more vapes to under-age people and those they should not be selling to, and pay that £100 fine within 10 days. So yes, we view it as too low. We would like to see a review brought in within a year to see whether it should be increased.

If we can align the cost of licensing fees with alcohol licensing, that would enable us to find a way to reduce the burden, because the vast majority of people who are selling alcohol are also selling tobacco. We need to work with our businesses to reduce the cost of applying for those licences, which is why we need the consultation period over the next few months, before we bring in legislation, to ensure that we have worked with our retailers, the public and our communities in order to deliver a scheme that actually works.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q The last time I was asked for ID —when I was trying to buy a bottle of champagne, an orchid and a punnet of strawberries in a major supermarket—I was 38, so it would seem we are not very good at working out how old people are, or some people are not. We are going to ask people to decide not just if someone is younger than 25, but potentially if they are younger than 45 or 35. Is that going to be difficult for people to do?

Professor Linda Bauld: I think we also heard this from previous witnesses, but as the legislation comes into place, it is really not about 34-year-olds versus 35-year-olds; it is about acting on the age of sale gradually, so that we are de-normalising tobacco use and stopping the start at an earlier stage.

By the time we get to the difference between the 34-year-old and the 35-year-old, you will have far lower smoking rates than we do at the moment. The modelling for the legislation that was carried out by the University of Sheffield for the Department of Health and Social Care suggests, as I think Hazel Cheeseman said earlier, that by 2040 we will have reduced the smoking rate among those aged 14 to 30 to 0.4%—down from 0.6% by 2030—so I think you are going to see very low rates. To go back to Challenge 25, age verification is something that we can build in, and, irrespective of how old you are, actually seeing proof of age will support this.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Welcome, Professor Bauld. What impact have tobacco control measures had on smoking rates over time? What impact do you expect this Bill to have?

Professor Linda Bauld: Thank you for that question, Minister. I have been working in tobacco control for almost 30 years, and the impact has been phenomenal. If you look back to the late 1940s and 1950s, 80% of men smoked in the UK. We have driven that down gradually over the years. We started to measure it in about 1974, and the level of smoking in the UK is now about 12% or 13%—the second lowest in Europe. The reason that we have achieved that is in line with what is being proposed in this legislation. It is about using comprehensive measures and implementing them over the years to regulate what I often call the four p’s: the product, the place, the price and the promotion. You are taking action on potentially all of those—including price, with the levy that is coming in, or the tax on vapes.

We have made a lot of progress, but we are not there yet. I think what you will hear from my clinical colleagues later is that in line with keeping that firm focus on prevention, as you are doing in this Bill, we also need to keep the focus on cessation and particularly on marginalised groups, deprivation, mental health and so on. The key is comprehensive tobacco control. Keep doing it, and that is what the Bill is adding to.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q In an earlier answer that you gave to the shadow Minister, you talked about the two priorities of preventing new smoking and tackling youth vaping, alongside supporting the 6 million to quit. The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?

Professor Linda Bauld: If I can start with the second part of your question, in terms of not deterring adult smokers, we need to continue making the products available for smoking cessation. We are not banning vapes—that has happened in a number of other countries, as the CMO for England was saying—but we are recognising the things that make them appealing, attractive and affordable to young people, and taking action on those. It is fine for the adult smoker not to be able to see a wide array of advertised products on the shop front, on the billboard or at the point of sale, but to know they are there behind the counter and ask for them. I also do not think that the adult smoker who is trying to quit cares about gummy bears or Coca-Cola flavours—maybe they want some flavours, but not all of them. It is about striking a balance.

Finally, although we are not here to talk about the funding of smoking cessation services today—certainly in England, you have made previous announcements about that—it is important that in clinical settings and through stop smoking services we can give good information about vaping and other cessation aids, and support people to quit that way.

[Liz Jarvis (Eastleigh) (LD)]

Q Do you think the Bill goes far enough to protect children and young people from the harmful effects of tobacco and vaping?

Professor Linda Bauld: It is very ambitious on tobacco. We will be the first in the world—after unfortunate events in New Zealand, from my personal perspective—to introduce the smoke-free generation policy, and the world is looking at us. That is good. In terms of protecting people from vaping, the Bill has a proportionate set of measures, but if I come back to the answer that I gave to the shadow Minister, we really need to keep our eye on the regulations and—going back to the Minister’s questions—make sure that we are striking a balance. Given the evidence that we have for much stronger regulations on vaping, I think this strikes the right balance, but we need to make sure that we do that in a proportionate way. Finally, to go back to the comments from the previous set of witnesses, we also need to make sure that local areas have the flexibility around some of the measures to adapt them for their local circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you, that is a really helpful answer. We know that vapes are very difficult to dispose of and to recycle.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q I have a very similar question to the shadow Minister’s. She asked whether you are confident that trading standards will have the resources to enforce the measures in this Bill. My question is: are you confident that trading standards will have the right powers to enforce the measures in this Bill?

Lord Michael Bichard: I think we do feel we will have the right powers, based on the fact that we are already doing some of this quite successfully. We seized something like 2 million vapes last year; we carried out 400,000 test purchases—which is how we check whether or not the legislation is being enforced—and we seized, I think, 19 million illegal cigarettes. So in a way, this is not new stuff for us; it is just bigger. We have the powers and we use them quite effectively. We know that HMRC thinks we are pretty effective in relation to tobacco. We like to think we are a good delivery agency.

Wendy Martin: There has been a lot of work in the development of the Bill and the associated Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs legislation around the ban on single-use vaping products with officials, so we have worked together with them to try to get this to a good place in terms of enforcement powers.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q One of the issues that came up on Second Reading and in the previous iteration of this Bill is that some people question whether moving to a smoke-free generation policy risks a growth in the black market and illicit trade. Does that accord with your experience of the illicit tobacco market and previous tobacco control measures?

Lord Michael Bichard: No. Our experience of the illicit tobacco market is that it has reduced rather than increased, despite the additional regulation, the price rise and all the rest of it, so we do not think that is a serious issue. We think that there are a number of myths around illicit tobacco and illicit vapes that do not stand up to close scrutiny. So no, we do not think that is a serious problem.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Finally from me, in the previous iteration of this Bill, the fixed penalty notices were to be set at £100. There was criticism and concern from trading standards representatives, who advocated for increasing the value of the fixed penalty notice. Notwithstanding your answer to the shadow Minister’s question, do you think that doubling the fixed penalty notice to £200 strikes a better balance?

Lord Michael Bichard: Yes, I think we feel that. You might also consider an increase for second offenders before you move to prosecution. I do not think anyone wants to move to prosecution, because it is such a time-intensive process. I know we have limited time, but one thing we have not talked about is retailers. We also ought to be concerned about the online market—or rather, you should be concerned, as we are. It is a difficulty for us and for local authorities, because no single local authority thinks it should be responsible for enforcing legislation in an online marketplace.

We have a solution to that, which is that we have a lead authority that we think could deal with this and avoid the problem with individual local authorities. I think that will become an increasingly important element of the vape marketplace.

[Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Q To build on a point my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made a moment ago, the Scottish Grocers’ Federation has indicated in some of the information it sent to us that, in its latest crime report, the most prevalent cause of threatening behaviour in stores is the refusal of sale and asking for proof of age. I am concerned about that rise in retail crime and what more can be done. I know that the education piece is needed, but is any thought being given to how we can further prevent some of these problems?

Lord Michael Bichard: It seems to me that it is now such a part of life that it is not as big a problem as it was; I think it is a problem that will diminish.

Wendy Martin: Certainly the retail violence is of concern and has been well publicised. It is clearly a policing issue rather than a trading standards issue. I guess it needs activity to make sure that everyone understands what is being done and why it is being done, and to make sure that there is a policing response, if possible, where there are issues. I know that local authorities work through community safety partnerships and things like that in local areas if there are particular incidents. Again, it is not specifically a trading standards response, but local authorities and local police forces will work together to do their best to address these things, because nobody wants anyone to be threatened with violence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I call the Minister.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Welcome to the Committee. Can you outline the lessons from the introduction of previous tobacco control policies, for example on age of sale change, which we can consider as we introduce the measures in the Bill?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Retailers are quite comfortable with the licensing scheme for tobacco at this point. That is something we are used to as a whole. One aspect of it is the fact that your larger retailers, for example, who have multiple premises do not have to worry about individual licenses for those individual premises. That is something we are quite concerned about with the licensing scheme, and what that could mean. If individual licenses had to be applied for, that could lead to divergence across a retail brand, and that affects your overall public retail image for customers.

We would also like to highlight that if the licensing scheme were to follow something such as the tobacco licensing scheme—the idea that licensing authorities could approve or deny certain applications—that could affect long-standing, established, compliant retailers, and that could lead to a loss of revenue for them. We appreciate the need for the legislation. We appreciate the need for a level playing field, and that is what we would encourage through the Bill.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q On proof of age and identification, which do you think is more complex? Is it having to work out, on a daily basis, whether somebody is over the age of 18 from their date of birth, or is it just being able to see that they were born after 1 January 2009?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Currently, retailers are used to the idea of over the age of 18, simply because of tobacco and alcohol sales. The identification of January 2009 is more difficult, in terms of the rolling age and how that will look in the future. Currently, it is quite identifiable. I would say that January 2009 is more difficult for retailers to handle in the future per se.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q I am not sure whether you understood the question that I was asking. If I have a piece of ID that shows clearly that I was born after 1 January 2009, that is very simple to understand. If I say I was born on 4 June 1974, it is obvious that I am over 18, but if it was 2004 rather than 1974, you would have to calculate in your head what my age is.

Inga Becker-Hansen: Yes, currently that is true. However, in the future, if somebody walks into a store and they are 45 or 43, I would not be able to tell that at face value.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q From their ID, you would.

Inga Becker-Hansen: From their ID, you would. What I am trying to say is that it raises the thing of eventually becoming “no ID, no sale”, which is a concept that retailers would have to follow. But it would also mean that consumer-wise, you would require a consumer-facing public awareness campaign to identify and illustrate to the general public that it is “no ID, no sale”, if that is the angle that the Government are focusing on.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q How can Government best support retailers to implement the changes in the Bill?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Ideally, with a cohesive guideline illustrating to retailers how to implement the legislation. We would also encourage alignment across the regulations in terms of new regulations coming through, such as secondary legislation on the licensing scheme, and consultations on any secondary legislation so that both larger and smaller retailers may contribute their ideas. Ideally, there would be constant communication with industry to understand how these changes are made, as well as a public awareness campaign so that the public is aware of the changes, which would hopefully reduce any potential violence against or abuse of retail workers.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q I can assure you that there will be consultation with the sector. What would you want to see from a licensing scheme? Are there any lessons from supporting the implementation of alcohol licensing, for example?

Inga Becker-Hansen: We would like to see a licensing scheme as a level playing field where small, independent and larger retailers are viewed on the same level. Again, we would encourage the multi-stores to require only one licence rather than looking at individual premises licences, because that will make things more difficult.

In terms of the tobacco scheme, ideally things would be grouped together so that there is less administrative burden and therefore less cost for retailers, so that, if the aim for the Government is to transfer from the idea of selling tobacco to people to selling vapes because of the health benefits, that transition is made easier for retailers. Adding on an additional licensing scheme with additional costs and a separate administrative system makes it more difficult for retailers to handle those things at the same time, particularly smaller retailers and independents.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q We talked a little bit about the new licensing scheme’s impact on retailers, and you have talked about a level playing field. You say that large companies should have one licence across multiple branches. How does that balance the risk that these measures will disproportionately impact small and independent retailers, which will have to apply for a licence for every individual premises?

Inga Becker-Hansen: It is a bit difficult for me to give you specific details, but in initial response my thinking would be that it would be a discussion between retailers and their primary authority and how that is handled, bearing in mind smaller retailers versus larger retailers. I am happy to follow up in writing and give evidence that way, but I cannot give specific details currently.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q Will this Bill help with that?

Matthew Shanks: Yes—very much so.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The shadow Minister is absolutely right to mention highlighter pens. You mentioned pen drives. There are examples of vapes that look like mobile phones. There are examples of vapes that are concealed within the hood strings of hoodies, so kids sucking on their hood strings are often vaping. It is clear that the industry is being very malicious in its approach to marketing vapes, which is why the Bill introduces a ban on advertising and sponsorship. Do you think that will have a material impact on dissuading children and young people from vaping?

Matthew Shanks: I think it will, but for some it will not unless it has the education behind it as well. I also think it is too easy for children to purchase vapes. It is all very nice to think of shopkeepers not allowing children to buy vapes or tobacco if they are under age. I am not denigrating them, but we have instances, for example, of a year 9 child who had a loyalty card for a vape shop. She is 13 years of age—she did not look 18—yet she is being sold that at the local shop. You go in and talk to the local shop and they say that no, of course they have not sold it to her, and then there is conflict there. We need to look at the legality of it and sterner punishment, for want of a better word, for people who are found to be selling.

The drop box online purchasing industry also needs to be looked at. I do not know how, but again, we know that people purchase vapes from those places. The education side is for parents, because parents and older brothers and sisters think it is safe and will therefore give them a vape. The Bill will help, but there are other things that could help as well.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q In terms of other measures in the Bill, advertising and sponsorship is one side of it, but another aspect will be bringing in regulations on flavours and packaging, subject to the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Do you think that will have an impact on youth vaping?

Matthew Shanks: Packaging and flavouring is really important. As I said before, it is set out as if it were sweets and bubblegum. Why would you need these different flavours? Why are they making something more attractive that is meant to help you stop doing something, so that if you do not like one flavour, you can try lots of them, and collect the different coloured vapes, or build them up into towers? Addressing all those things would help. Linking vaping with smoking, in terms of not being able to purchase it as you go up the age range, would also help.

Vape-free zones are really important. People are vaping indoors. I have seen it today in London on the tube, in pubs and other places—I have not been in a pub today, by the way; that was over the Christmas period, but people are vaping in pubs in the way they used to with cigarette smoke. Again, it is not seen as something dangerous.

If you put all that out there and then put children into the mix and they are looking up and seeing the colourful packaging, the flavouring and so on, why would they not do this?

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Clearly, smoking rates have declined considerably in children and young people and, indeed, the wider population, but do you see the progressive age of sale for smoking as being another important tool to help to create a healthier generation of children and young people?

Matthew Shanks: Yes. My question would be: why would we not?

[The Chair]

Looking at the number of Members who wish to ask questions and the amount of time that we have left, I ask Members to be short in their questions and the panellist to be short in his answers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q You have explained that they are very different roles: in one, there is a level of safety that is checked; in the other, the manufacturers just notify that they are following the basic level of rules. When a customer buys a product, do you think that the suggestion that it is MHRA-approved leads the customer to believe that there is some evidence that it has been medically checked in some way by some higher competent authority, when that actually has not happened? In fact, would it be better for some other organisation to do this work, or for there to be a different name when the lower-level process has taken place?

Dr Laura Squire: I do not have any evidence of that, but it does worry me. We are an organisation that is about healthcare products, medicines, medical devices and blood products—that is our business—and it concerns me that people might think that vapes are safe. When I talk about risk-benefit, what I mean is that vapes are safer than tobacco; I do not think that anyone disagrees with that. However, vapes are not safer than nothing—and we do not actually know how unsafe vapes are, because there is a need for much longer-term study and understanding of the damage that they could cause.

My feeling is that, yes, there is potentially a misleading position with an organisation like ours, which is basically about healthcare products, running this scheme.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Welcome to the Committee, Dr Squire. I will ask two questions specifically about the notification scheme, which you very helpfully outlined to the Committee in your response to the shadow Minister. First, what do you think are the most pressing issues with the current notification scheme that you would like to see addressed in a new registration scheme?

Dr Laura Squire: I think we heard earlier about the different elements you need to make something work—licensing, regulations and registration—and I agree with that. I think it was also mentioned that registration is important to allow compliant businesses to check that the product that they have is compliant.

The significant problem with the notification scheme at the moment is that there is not an easy way to take something off the register once it is already on it. That is a problem, because if people are checking the current register, there might be something on it that we would quite like to take off but cannot.

There are powers to take things off the shelves, so if there was a recall issue, that could be dealt with. However, the main problem, or the primary thing in the Bill that I think needs to change, is having powers to take things off the register. Obviously, we must consult on the regulations themselves, but we welcome that change.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q What do you see as the main differences between the current notification scheme and the scheme that the Bill creates powers to establish?

Dr Laura Squire: I think somebody talked earlier about the package; the Bill is more than the notification scheme, and I think the whole thing works together to make a much safer environment. I was particularly pleased to see that there is a requirement to carry out studies and a requirement to carry out testing. We are sometimes asked about testing. Testing at the point of registration is one thing, but you need to know that the product remains compliant.

Obviously, there must be consultation about exactly what will go into the regulations, but I would expect that there would be an awful lot more linked to the other requirements of the Bill, and that will make it tighter. I think that would be an improvement, because at the moment the Bill is very light-touch.

[Taiwo Owatemi]

Q What effect do you think the Bill will have on the number of vaping products that the MHRA will have to approve through its licensing route?

Dr Laura Squire: For a medicines licence?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q Okay, but you do not have specific evidence that compares flavours. Say the popular flavours are cherry and raspberry—you do not have anything that says which is safer.

Professor Sanjay Agrawal: No.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q Welcome to the Committee, and I thank you both for your time. In answer to the shadow Minister, you have outlined some of the early impacts of vaping that we are seeing in patients. But I am interested in smoking—tobacco is a killer. Following on from the evidence this morning from the CMOs from across the UK, what impacts of smoking do you see in your patients—I include second-hand smoking in that analysis—and what difference do you think the measures in the Bill will make?

Professor Steve Turner: Smoking is bad whether you are an active smoker or a passive smoker. Sadly, there are lots of children who still actively smoke, but there are many hundreds of thousands of children who are exposed to second-hand smoke in the home. There is undeniable evidence that that exposure is harmful. I do respiratory paediatrics. Asthma admissions are very common and are clearly associated with exposures.

We can look at natural experiments. For example, in Scotland we had the “Take it right outside” campaign, which was a smoke-free homes initiative. After that, there was a reduction in the number of children coming into hospital. When we brought in the ban on smoking in cars in Scotland, there was another reduction. On that whole-population basis, there is a lot of evidence of benefit to the population, particularly children, from smoking interventions. There are also benefits to the birth weight of children.

There is no doubt that there is a huge amount of harm from second-hand smoke, and anything that reduces the population’s exposure to second-hand smoke will benefit the whole population. As we heard earlier from Matthew, the headteacher, it is part of a package, and it is part of education as well. Smoking continues to be something that children should not do. Children should never vape. Children should never smoke. They continue to do so, and anything that we as a responsible society can do to stop that is to everybody’s benefit.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The extension of smoke-free legislation to outdoor settings is of course subject to consultation, but in England we have made it very clear that we will be consulting on children’s playgrounds, schools and hospitals. Some have argued that the current public health test, which is in the 2006-07 legislation, should be applied going forward. Given that children’s playgrounds would almost certainly not meet that threshold, what is your argument in terms of protecting children from the harms of second-hand smoke?

Professor Steve Turner: Children are very susceptible and can be easily influenced, and they are learning all the time. If they see that it is okay to watch your child’s football match and smoke, or to smoke outside a pub, they will very quickly adapt and think that that is a social norm. There is a powerful social norm exercise there about what we as a society expect is normal, and approving smoking outside hospitals seems to be such a bad, conflicting message. To me, that argument in itself is very powerful.

There were a number of people back in the early noughties who felt that the smoke-free legislation might not have much benefit on pregnancy—why on earth would that reduce low birth weight and premature delivery? Well, it did. That was probably the snowballing effect of stopping smoking in pubs, for example—I think the whole of society changed its attitude and behaviour around smoking. So, going back to the original question, I think that putting restrictions in public spaces will change that social norm to everybody’s benefit.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we can best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?

Professor Steve Turner: That is a really good question. I think that the balance in this Bill—between supporting the 6 million smokers to quit and not engaging children in nicotine addiction—is the right balance. Going back to what I was saying earlier, getting the message across to young people is a multifaceted intervention that requires education as well as legislation. It is a really difficult balance, but I do believe that the Bill, as it is, has that balance just right.

[Dr Chambers]

Q Thank you for coming all the way down from Aberdeen; I worked there for a few years, so I know it is a long way. We have been trying to ask some panellists approximately what this issue is costing the NHS. As a consultant, in your clinic, doing respiratory paediatrics, what proportion of your patients are in some way involved with smoking or second-hand smoking?

Professor Steve Turner: The impact on the whole of society of second-hand smoking in children is complex, but there are various pieces of the jigsaw. First of all, children come to the clinic, are admitted to hospital, come to the emergency department, or go and see the GP, so there is that healthcare side. If any of you have children, however, when your child is off school, that has implications for you as a family; there are some difficult discussions over breakfast about who is going to work and who is not. Therefore, there are a number of different impacts on us as a society, economically and to the NHS from second-hand smoking.

I am not clever enough to put a number on it, but it is a lot bigger than I think people know. I do know that £46 billion is the number cited as the direct health cost to the NHS of smoking—it is almost too big to consider—but I suspect that the wider societal cost will probably be a magnitude greater than that.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

There will be a further opportunity to raise a point of order. It will be up to whoever is in the Chair at the time to decide whether to take the kind of action that, on the Clerk’s sound advice, I have just taken. I appreciate that this is a complex Bill and we may well find that one or two amendments are more comfortably located under other clauses. If that is so, sensibly and flexibly, we will endeavour to accommodate that.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. The loop system in this room does not appear to be working, at least not for my hearing aid. I do not know whether somebody can get it switched on or, if not, whether Members could please amplify when they speak.

[The Chair]

That request, I understand, has been remitted. We will do the best we can. Will hon. Members be kind enough to ensure that they speak clearly for the sake of the Minister and anybody else in a similar position? Exceptionally, I am more than prepared to make sure that the person speaking is addressing the Minister rather than the Chair, as would normally be the case, because sometimes in these circumstances it helps to see somebody’s lips. Again, I can only apologise that the system ain’t perfect.

I am well aware that there are hon. Members present who have not taken part in the Bill Committee process before. First, on code of dress, it is fine if anybody wishes to take their jacket off. You have the permission of the Chair to do so. You are supposed to seek the consent of the Chair before doing so; you have that consent.

Hon. Members who wish to intervene may do so in the same way as on the Floor of the House. It is up to the Member who has the Floor whether to give way, but it is customary in Committee. Unlike on the Floor of the House, it is not uncommon for a Member to seek to intervene more than once on the same subject for further clarification, if necessary. That is a given. I trust that Members are aware that—again, unlike on the Floor of the House—they are permitted to speak more than once during the debate on each grouping.

That brings me on to the groupings, about which we have had quite a lot of discussion already. This is an arcane process. Groupings on amendments and new clauses are tabled out of sequence, but in recognition of the subject matter under discussion. You will find that there are groupings with a lead amendment, which is the only one that will initially be moved. It is not uncommon for hon. Members to say, “Hang on a minute, I want to move that other amendment.” The answer to that is, “Later.” You move the amendment when we reach the appropriate point in the Bill; amendments are not necessarily moved immediately. If anybody wishes to press an amendment that is listed, but that is not immediately called as the lead amendment, will they please let the Chair know? It is not our job to try to prevent you from causing a Division if you choose to do so, but we do need to know. Otherwise, it may not get called.

Government amendments and some new clauses will be called in sequence as we work through the Bill. Although they may be debated this morning, they might not be called to be voted on—divided on—for two or three weeks. If you are in any doubt, ask. That goes for anything else as well. This is a difficult process to master. Whoever is in the Chair will be more than willing, if we do not know the answer, to take advice—the Clerk always does know—and make sure that you get the answers you want. In other words, if in doubt, ask. Do not sit there floundering.

That was intended to be helpful. I do not know whether it was or not. We will now commence line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill.

Clause 1

Sale of tobacco etc

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

The amendments do not stand in my name, and they are not amendments with which I agree, but they relate to a very important part of the Second Reading debate that goes to the heart of the principles behind the Bill. I have moved the lead amendment so that the debate can be heard in full and so that hon. Members can establish for themselves whether they wish to support the amendments.

I will refer to these amendments as the Maguire amendments, if that helps, as they were all tabled by the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell, who is not on the Committee. It is, of course, the Whips who choose who goes on the Committee—[Interruption.] Sorry, can you hear me?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I can hear you.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Some people are averse to carrying ID—it is not something that bothers me personally, but I am aware that for some people it is a sticking point. In a previous debate before the election, the former Member for Norwich North, Chloe Smith, made the point that not all adults will be affected by this legislation, but only a relatively narrow band of them.

The last time I was carded for ID, I was 38. I was not buying the typical basket of a 17-year-old; I was buying flowers—orchids—and a bottle of champagne for someone’s housewarming, as well as some strawberries, because she had phoned to ask me to get some when I was on the way, as she was running out at the housewarming party. I was IDed, so I was not able to buy the champagne for her, because the supermarket would not let me. That was disappointing for both of us, but I accepted the fact that if ID could not be shown and they genuinely believed that I looked under 25, that was the law and it had to be accepted. That is not universally the case, and I am aware—as we heard in evidence—that retailers can sometimes receive significant verbal and occasionally violent abuse when they ask for ID in that way.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Johnson]

I keep getting promoted!

[Andrew Gwynne]

The shadow Minister is having a good morning, having not had a particularly great evening last night. With no disrespect to the hon. Member for Windsor, who made this point in his intervention, by the time that the age of sale is legally his age, we hope that smoking prevalence in that age group will be next to zero, and therefore it will not be an issue.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the Minister for his intervention, although I am not sure what he is implying about the age of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor—