P&O Ferries

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the reputation of P&O Ferries being ripped to shreds in 14 days in a way that I cannot think of with any company in corporate history. It is important that its owners understand that they are welcome to invest in this country and create employment, but that we take employment law seriously. They need to understand that and deal with this P&O situation, otherwise that will not be smooth.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s statement today. It is one of the most substantial and significant statements I have heard in almost 21 years as a Member who has taken a close interest in matters of the merchant marine. I hope that this is the start of a very different practice from what we have seen in recent decades. One of the problems we have had over the years is that when successive Governments were introducing the tonnage tax and refining it, there was a link to training, but not enough of a link to post-training employment. That is the sort of thing that has to change. Protection has to be given not just to officers, but to ratings. When the Secretary of State is constructing the next round of the tonnage tax, will he listen first to the unions representing the ratings and the officers, and not just the shipping companies?

[Grant Shapps]

Needless to say, I am very grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments on this statement. It is a serious attempt to sort out something that internationally has not been satisfactory for a very long time, because of the global nature of shipping. He is absolutely right to zero in on the tonnage tax. As he knows, there will be an opening for the tonnage tax—from 4 April, I think—for the first time in many years. If we can get this right, we can use the tonnage tax not only to improve the industry, but to drive the right kind of behaviour. With more ships flagged under the British flag, we can lead—as we do as a maritime nation—with the IMO here, and use the tonnage tax to pull those ships along.

P&O Ferries

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Robert Courts]

Yes, and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency has detained one vessel to ensure that has taken place. I have total confidence in the MCA, and it will ensure that any vessel is safe before it sails.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

Further to that question, surely the results of those inspections will be published in full, so the public can have confidence in what is being done. It appears that, as well as being in breach of its duty to inform the Secretary of State about its intentions, P&O is also in breach of its duty to inform flag states. Do the Government intend to pursue that matter?

[Robert Courts]

We are considering any options that may be relevant after the actions of P&O last week. We will consider all of them.

P&O Ferries and Employment Rights

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Louise Haigh]

I absolutely agree. The Government have significant leverage, both over P&O and over DP World, and they must use it. I will come on to the detail of that point shortly.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The hon. Lady is being very generous with her time and is making a compelling case. The Secretary of State for Transport suggested that the review of contracts by the Government would include DP World as well as P&O Ferries, but yesterday the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy appeared to roll back from that. Does the hon. Lady agree that it is critical that DP World be held to account as much as P&O Ferries? It has to be part of that review.

[Louise Haigh]

I absolutely agree. DP World, the parent company, must be held accountable for the actions of P&O—

--- Later in debate ---

[Grant Shapps]

Again, I wish to make a little progress, so let me turn to the critical issue of fire and rehire. It is only a rehire to a very limited degree here, from what I can see—it is more like just fire. I have already asked ACAS, or, rather, my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has, to produce additional information and guidance to employees, and—[Interruption.] And wait for it: if we need to go further, this is something we will consider doing. I have spoken to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to ensure that those who have lost their jobs are supported with relevant help and a rapid response taskforce. Since Thursday, I have received many messages from blue-chip employers anxious to snap up the newly redundant workforce, and I have arranged to put them in touch. I pay tribute to those who have come forward, and with unemployment at 3.9% I very much hope that those excellent individuals will be snapped up very quickly indeed.

[Mr Carmichael]

I hope that we are going to hear soon about the safety implications of this issue. P&O Ferries has obligations under the international safety management code, which requires each vessel to have a safety management system. That is then audited by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which produces a document of compliance. It is difficult to see how, with 100% crew changes in the way we have heard, P&O can possibly now be in compliance with those obligations. Will the Secretary of State look at the possibility of suspending the documents of compliance until he is satisfied that P&O is in compliance with them?

[Grant Shapps]

I will, but I will come back to the right hon. Gentleman’s precise points in a moment in my speech. Seafarers’ rights and wellbeing are a matter I take extremely seriously. Indeed, the House may recall that during the pandemic I ordered the MCA to board vessels forcibly to ensure that conditions were appropriate where I believed that there may have been maritime workers who were being exploited, as indeed they were being. So I take this matter incredibly seriously. Maritime employees have not in this country, and indeed throughout much of the world, received some of the same benefits and protections that exist otherwise for workers. That simply is not good enough and it is a practice we have been seeking to end.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

P&O has a long association with the Northern Isles, where for many years it provided the lifeline services between Scotland and Orkney and Shetland. It was originally founded almost two centuries ago by a Shetlander, Arthur Anderson. However, we looked on with horror at what that company did last week, and we simply do not recognise it as the company we have known. The Secretary of State talked about renaming ships, but I do not think he quite carried the House with him when he identified that as a priority. If any names are to be changed, I suggest it should be that of P&O Ferries itself. It can be rebranded as DP World (UK Branch), or something of that sort, because continuing to trade as P&O damages the other P&O companies and dishonours the memory of Arthur Anderson and the thousands of good, hard-working seafarers who have served my communities so well for decades.

Of course, we all know that this day has been a long time coming. As a country, and successive Governments within it, we have tolerated practices at sea that we would regard as simply unthinkable on dry land. I remember lobbying in 2016 for the enforcement of the national minimum wage for crews on the freight boats operating between Aberdeen and Lerwick, who were then being paid £3.66 an hour. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs said that it was okay, because that route was deemed to be wholly outwith UK territorial waters. That is the importance we have given to the maritime industry until now.

What really matters is that what we allow P&O to do today, others will want to do tomorrow. If anybody doubts that, they may wish to revisit the comments of Peter Aylott, spokesperson for the UK Chamber of Shipping, on the “Today” programme on Friday morning. He could not comment on anything that had been done, but he was somehow happy at the end of the interview to say that he was “content and very confident” that P&O had acted properly. If I were a company paying a subscription to the UK Chamber of Shipping and I saw P&O trashing my industry’s reputation, I would want something rather better than that from the trade body. However, it is an indication that others in the industry will look to what happens to P&O and will follow. Indeed, they will argue that they are compelled to follow if P&O gets off. We must also look carefully at what may happen to the future employment of the 800 workers, because the industry has previously been guilty of blacklisting.

The shipping industry has never been slow to come to the Government with demands. I have advocated for it in the past in relation to the tonnage tax and getting more UK officers on to our ships. This, however, is a moment for the Government to turn the tables and to take a clear message back from this House to the industry as a whole: it is time for it to get its house in order, because we are no longer prepared to tolerate behaviour of this sort. Change has to come, and the industry must lead it.

National Lost Trawlermen’s Memorial Day

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Karl Turner]

I do agree, and I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, because I know he is incredibly proud of the industry in his area and campaigns tirelessly for the interests of those who earn their living fishing at sea.

Fishing was and is a hard, tough and unimaginably dangerous job. In the mid-20th century, workers in the fishing industry were four times as likely to be killed as those in the UK’s next most lethal profession, underground coalmining.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because this is a proposition that I am sure will have support in coastal and island communities right around the country. I was brought up on Islay, with a population of 3,500 people, and even of those who were at school with me I can count no fewer than six who have lost their lives in the industry. The real benefit that would come from what he proposes is not just that it would be an act of remembrance but, in its own small way, it would help to improve the culture within the industry so that the many lives that were lost needlessly would not be lost in future generations.

[Karl Turner]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman; the fact that he speaks as he does adds incredibly strong support to the argument. I think I am right in saying, having spoken briefly with the Minister prior to the debate, that to some extent we are pushing at an open door.

Fishing in Hull and the rest of the UK was not only deadly during peacetime. Trawlermen were on the frontline of both world wars, not only braving enemy action to keep those at home supplied with vital food when rationing tightened belts, but playing an active role in minesweeping, U-boat detection and saving lives at sea. At the height of the first world war, fishing trawlers on active service were lost at the rate of one every other week, with an average of half of all crew lost in every single incident. The contribution of fishing communities to the wider conflict has been woefully under-recognised, in my respectful view, and that must be addressed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Courts]

I thank my hon. Friend very much for that intervention. She really brings home to us all the importance of what we are discussing. I very much hope that this debate and the idea the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East has had will help, as she says, to connect people. Perhaps that is the point the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood was making as well—about connecting people to an understanding of what others do in order to bring food to them. They both make that point exceptionally well and I thank them for doing so.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on that point of connection and for reflecting on the contribution of our fishing industry during times of conflict. It is worth remembering that we have just seen the passing of the last man who was part of the Shetland Bus, Jakob Strandheim. That still lives very strongly in the communities I represent in Shetland, but as we get further from the memory of what they did, acts of commemoration like this will be all the more important.

[Robert Courts]

The right hon. Gentleman is quite right, and I thank him for making that point. He is absolutely right that the memories of the sacrifices made by communities runs deep, but we must not be complacent. Those extraordinary acts of sacrifice, through the sheer passage of time become something we have to redouble our efforts to remember. There are those we have lost, but also, as we have heard, those currently working in what is a uniquely dangerous industry.

I believe there is merit in exploring further the idea from the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East, supported by so many Members across this House, of a national memorial day dedicated to those who have lost their lives. Consequently, I have asked my officials to explore the proposal further. I would like it very much if the hon. Gentleman and all the right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken were a part of that engagement as we consider the proposal further.

Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency: Shetland

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the operation of the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency in Shetland.

It is a great pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Ghani, and I welcome the Minister to her place. I am pleased to have secured this debate, although I am enormously frustrated that it has been necessary. Candidly, as a constituency Member of Parliament, I feel that this is now the tactic of last resort in protecting the interests of my constituency. I have never before found myself in this situation since I entered the House in 2001, despite having handled scores—maybe hundreds—of local issues that were much more complicated than this one.

My history of engagement with the DVSA on the provision of HGV and motorcycle testing in Shetland goes back several years. For as long as it has been necessary to undertake those parts of the respective driving tests that are conducted off road in Shetland, that has been done in part of the grounds of the former Anderson High School in Lerwick. When the school moved to its current site in 2017, it was apparent that that would no longer be available, as the site was earmarked for redevelopment. DVSA was told by Shetland Islands Council in 2016 that the Anderson High site was earmarked for development and, on 24 November 2017, the council advised the DVSA that it would need to vacate the site by the end of March 2018.

Early correspondence with Gareth Llewellyn, then chief executive of DVSA, stated that the last tests would be carried out on the site on 31 March 2018. Mr Llewellyn offered me one of those less than reassuring reassurances:

“We are committed to providing a service in Shetland but this is dependent on securing new premises.”

Even at that stage, it appeared to me that DVSA, having had more than a year to do something about a problem of which it had been made aware and about which it had done nothing, was prepared to leave Shetland without local provision.

At that early stage, there seemed to be a polite lack of energy in the approach taken by the agency, so at the request of local instructors I became involved. Following my intervention, the Shetland Islands Council agreed an initial extension until the end of June 2018. At this point, I should put on record my appreciation of the efforts and input from local driving instructors in Shetland, in particular Steve Henry and Petur Petursson. The commitment to the community and the professionalism of both of those gentlemen, and the time and trouble they have taken to advise me and assist DVSA in identifying possible new sites, has gone well beyond anything that could have been asked of them.

DVSA staff visited Shetland and different possibilities were explored. They met local stakeholders and a location at the former Decca site on the edge of Lerwick was identified, which could be developed for use. It is a flat area of ground finished with hardcore, but it would obviously be required to be topped with tarmac. Unlike the previous site at the former Anderson High School, this would be a purpose-built facility and would be required to be kept for the use of the DVSA; it would not be a shared space.

Having already seen the approach of the DVSA, I asked for, and was given, a commitment to have regular update calls, naively thinking that that might concentrate minds. Several calls took place, and at each turn I was assured that progress was being made. Eventually, we got to the point where it was left to the DVSA and the owner of the land to work out the details, the principles having been agreed. The negotiation of commercial contracts, even when I was in legal practice, was never a strength of mine, and I know my limitations. I felt that this piece of work may not have got over the line, but at least the line was in sight, and that I should leave it to work its way through. Shetland Islands Council helpfully and generously agreed to make the site at the former Anderson High School available for continued use by the DVSA for as long as it could.

Thereafter, whenever inquiry was made, I was told that the details were still being worked out, and I was happy to accept these reassurances; I had, after all, been told in correspondence from DVSA on 26 June 2018 that estimated costs had been provided and that the business case for the new site would be considered by an extraordinary meeting of the investment change committee of the DVSA with a view to its receiving approval. It was thought then that the necessary works would take four weeks to complete. Correspondence in July, August and September contained similar commitments. In October 2018, I was told that

“the majority of issues have been resolved and those that remain are not insurmountable.”

In January 2019, I was told that the outstanding issues would be resolved by the week commencing 4 February. Accepting the continued commitment of the DVSA to provide a local service in Shetland, I agreed to receive further updates as they were available, rather than monthly. That may have been my mistake.

In autumn last year, knowing that the redevelopment of the site at the former Anderson High School was going to bring this to a head again, I reopened correspondence with the DVSA and asked for a meeting with the former chief executive to discuss the situation. Requests for updates went unanswered, and Gareth Llewelyn refused the requested meeting. The new chief executive of the DVSA, Loveday Ryder, came into post on 1 January. My requests for meetings were renewed, but no commitments were made. Eventually, as a result of the interventions of the Minister’s noble Friend, Baroness Vere, Loveday Ryder made a commitment to meet me. That was eventually organised to take place by Zoom on 7 April, initially for 30 minutes but then reduced to 15 minutes.

It is fair to say that the meeting on 7 April was not productive. Ahead of it, DVSA officials said that they would not provide further information about progress on the issue as the rules of purdah would not allow it while Scottish parliamentary elections were ongoing. Purdah guidance not only does not forbid the sharing of information in circumstances such as this but actually exists to provide the basis on which it should be done. Had the DVSA told me that it would share information with me on the basis that it would not be transmitted further, I would happily have taken the meeting on that basis, but no such offer was made. I asked Ministers’ offices for an explanation of the interpretation of purdah guidance favoured by the DVSA and was told that its view had been confirmed by the Cabinet Office. However, the Cabinet Office subsequently told my office that it had offered no supplementary guidance to the Department. It appears that that use of the purdah guidance was in fact a quite deliberate attempt by the DVSA to avoid providing me with information that it obviously had at that point.

It was also apparent at that stage that there was a major issue with the progress of the project, and that all the previous reassurances and commitments I received from the agency were basically worthless. Following the elections at the beginning of May, it was confirmed in correspondence that the agency had decided not to go ahead with the development of the site at the former Decca station, citing the cost. I have subsequently found out about the costs, and it seems that they are high. The specification is questionable, but at no point when we have sought to engage with DVSA about the specification—with regard to the detail of it and the possible terms of any lease—has it been in any way forthcoming or offered to engage. Information is provided grudgingly and no explanation to show the working of it is ever provided.

It was also known by this time that the absolute final deadline for using the site at the former Anderson High School was looming. Work was due to start there on 31 July and it would no longer be available from that date—that turned out to be the case. There followed a series of meetings involving myself, local instructors and DVSA officials. As a result of these meetings I was made aware that it was the intention of the agency to use a third site that it had identified, near the former Scatsta airport, 25 miles north of Lerwick. The local instructors were clear in telling the agency that that was not a workable solution for them and, in fact, if that were the only provision to be made they would discontinue to provide the service. The response of the agency was to ignore the concerns of local instructors and to insist that this was the only service that it would provide.

Unfortunately, on further investigation it transpired that despite having known for months that the 31 July deadline was looming, the DVSA had made no formal attempts to secure a lease on the site near Scatsta airport, and no planning application had been submitted for its change of use. Despite this, the DVSA proceeded to offer bookings for tests in August; the sheer lack of professionalism in this is breath-taking. In fact, Shetland Islands Council is not prepared to allow the use of the site at Scatsta airport, and as a consequence we now find ourselves in a position where no training or testing for the off-road elements of the HGV and motorcycle tests are available to my constituents in Shetland.

In response to my request for further meetings and updates I have been told that these will only be held when there is something to be shared; I see no evidence of the agency doing anything to move this issue on. I do not know what more I can do as a constituency Member of Parliament to resolve this issue. My constituents are left without the provision of a vital public service. In essence, the root cause of the problem appears to be a cultural one within the agency; instead of being willing to engage with local stakeholders to work towards finding a solution, the attitude has been one of high-handed indifference. That would be unacceptable in any circumstances, but the way that the agency has conducted itself lacks not just respect for the local communities but also basic professionalism. In what circumstances can it possibly be appropriate for a Government agency to offer appointments for tests at a site where it does not hold a lease or have any formal agreement with the owner?

This lack of professionalism is also apparent from the recent changes to the provision of written theory tests. In August it became apparent that the only provision for sitting a theory test in Shetland would be at sites in Mid Yell and Whalsay—both sites on islands away from the main centres of population on Shetland mainland. Do not get me wrong: if that had been provision in addition to that made over the years in Lerwick, the capital of Shetland mainland, I would have been quite delighted—I would have been the first to welcome it. But as an alternative to the provision of tests in the main town, it simply beggared belief.

Recent casework has disclosed that all theory tests in October have been cancelled due to, and I quote, “IT problems” with the new provider, Reed In Partnership. My office has sought further specification of what the IT problems are, but to date no explanation has been forthcoming. It has been suggested to me—I do not know if this is the case or not—that the IT problem is that they do not have the necessary computers to do the test. If it was not so serious it would be laughable.

As I said at the outset, I have never before found myself in a situation like this as a Member of Parliament. Elsewhere in this building today the Transport Committee is taking evidence on the work of the agency. The problems facing the agency seem to go well beyond the shores of Shetland. They are cultural and deep rooted. They ought to be tackled by the senior management of the agency, and if they cannot or will not do that, it should be up to Ministers to sort it. The people who are blameless in all this are my constituents, but they are the ones who are left without this most crucial of public services.

[Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair)]

Thank you, Mr Carmichael. I think you have done Shetland proud. Are there any further speakers? I see that the Chair of the Transport Committee is here. If there are none, I will call the Minister.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Trudy Harrison)]

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. I thank the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for explaining the situation. It is disappointing to hear his frustration, and I hope I can provide some level of comfort about the next steps. I will endeavour to work with him to find a solution to what he describes as an unacceptable situation for his constituents.

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency’s core aim is to help everyone stay safe on British roads, which are some of the safest in the world. The DVSA is part of the Department for Transport. It is funded not by the general taxpayer but by the fees it charges to those who use its vital public services. The DVSA is responsible for delivering, in a normal year, around 2 million car theory tests, 1.9 million car driving tests and 70,000 large goods vehicle tests. Those tests help people into and through a lifetime of self-driving. They also help ensure the safe and efficient movement of freight around England, Wales and Scotland, by examining people who want to drive professionally.

As Members know, recently the Government set out a range of measures to increase the number of lorry drivers as we continue to build back better from the covid-19 pandemic. Like many parts of the Department for Transport, as well as the wider public sector, the DVSA is working hard to recover its services as we continue to emerge from the pandemic. It is prioritising the reduction of waiting times as quickly and as safely as possible for customers who want a car practical test. It is also increasing the number of vocational tests available for those who want to become lorry drivers. The opportunity for people to book a lorry driving test is something the Government, the DVSA and the right hon. Gentleman feel strongly about.

Let me turn to the DVSA’s operation in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I thank him for his detailed, albeit somewhat frustrated, explanation of events thus far. As he knows from his meetings with the DVSA to discuss his concerns, it has conducted vocational tests in Lerwick since October 2001. Module 1 motorcycle testing began in 2011. The DVSA conducted those tests from Anderson High School until 31 July 2021, when testing ceased because the landlord, Shetland Islands Council, had plans to redevelop the site. Testing stopped at the high school at the end of July this year, as the right hon. Gentleman explained.

Over the past six years, the DVSA, together with members of the council, has conducted an extensive search of the island. During that time, only two sites were identified as possible vocational and motorcycle module 1 testing locations: Ladies Drive, which is owned by Tulloch Developments, and Scatsta airport, which is owned by the council and became commercially available only in recent months. The Ladies Drive site was preferred by motorcycle and vocational trainers, as Scatsta airport is some 25 miles from Lerwick.

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware from the many discussions he has had with the DVSA, the DVSA considered the Tulloch site but rejected it because the construction cost to make it operationally suitable was too high, in addition to the significant annual lease cost, which was disproportionate to the number of tests that would be conducted. When taking into account the construction cost, 10 years of capitalised rent and rates plus associated fees, the Tulloch scheme would cost in excess of £1 million. That does not balance cost or manage public money responsibly, even when taking account of the Government’s priority to increase the number of lorry drivers.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. As I indicated in my speech, when the costs were subsequently made known to me, they seemed higher than I would have expected. I was not party to the negotiations or discussions. I was told that the specification would have made it twice as thick as any other road in Shetland in terms of the tarmac to be laid. I think that there is more opportunity here to interrogate the work that has been done to get to these figures. That requires the DVSA to engage, instead of just saying, “That’s the cost, and we are not going to explain anything more.”

[Trudy Harrison]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. While there are considerable infrastructure costs in ensuring that the surface is suitable for the turning of very heavy trucks that would be required, there were also other costs for rent and associated fees, as I am sure he can appreciate. That said, I am confident that my colleague in the other place, Baroness Vere, would be willing to consider providing further detail on costs and, potentially, alternative sites if the right hon. Gentleman would like to discuss the matter further.

However, speed is of the essence. As the right hon. Gentleman will surely agree, his constituents are missing out on opportunities to become lorry drivers and to drive motorcycles, and we must ensure that a resolution is found in the swiftest order to relieve that burden on the Shetland isles.

The site at Scatsta airport is the more viable and affordable option. The DVSA met the council to discuss the possible use of the site. The initial negotiations were very positive. The council actively supported the DVSA in marking out the off-road manoeuvring area and in placing a container with equipment on site in anticipation of a mutually beneficial agreement. I am assured that the issue is unclear to the DVSA, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could explain. The council had a change of heart in August and told the DVSA that it was withdrawing from negotiations about the use of the Scatsta site as a testing facility.

This was a considerable disappointment to both the DVSA and its customers, given the amount of work that had been done. It meant a withdrawal of practical testing facilities on Shetland. The DVSA is committed to exploring and exhausting all possible options to retain the testing service on Shetland. It submitted a planning application to Shetland Islands Council for permission to use the vacant site for practical driver testing. Despite there being no other current use for the site, the council has told the DVSA that it will not recommend planning permission. In fact, it offered the DVSA a refund of its application fee if it would withdraw the application.

[Mr Carmichael]

The Minister is being very generous with her time. I appreciate that this is not part of her ministerial brief, as it rests with her noble Friend, but can the Minister tell me at what point the DVSA actually started investigating the Scatsta site? It is apparent to me from my dealings with the Minister and the agency that it had been well sighted on the difficulties that it had identified with the Ladies brae site in Lerwick. The point about the application for planning permission is that that went in only when I pointed out that nobody has done anything to obtain change of use permission.

[Trudy Harrison]

I hope that later in my speech, I will be able to answer that particular question. I will, of course, write to the right hon. Gentleman should he require further clarification.

We do not know the motivation behind the offer to refund the application fee in return for withdrawing the planning application, but Members will not be surprised to learn that the DVSA declined and awaits the official outcome of its application. Given the council’s unusual offer, the expectation that the DVSA will receive a favourable planning outcome is low. If Shetland Islands Council does reject the DVSA’s reasonable application to use otherwise redundant land at Scatsta airport, it will, with full support of the Department, push for full transparency in this matter.

The DVSA has been co-operative and transparent throughout its endeavours to secure new facilities on Shetland. It has shared all information with the right hon. Gentleman and others when it has been legally able to so. It is the DVSA’s firm view that the intransigency of the council is the only impediment to it being able to reinstate its vital public services to the residents of the island of Shetland. I hardly feel that I need to remind anyone of the urgent need for more lorry drivers in the current climate.

[Mr Carmichael]

Will the Minister give way?

[Trudy Harrison]

I am afraid I will not give way any further, simply because of time restrictions. The position on motorcycle testing on Shetland also depends on securing a new site for conducting the off-road part of the test. Although the DVSA understands that the island’s sole motorcycle trainer has ceased his trade, without a testing facility there is no incentive for anyone else to offer such training on Shetland.

In the absence of a test facility on Shetland, the nearest venue for candidates in Lerwick is Orkney, which is about 120 miles and a five-hour journey by ferry away. The next nearest option is Aberdeen, which is around 224 miles away. That is not what the DVSA wants for its customers or for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents. Shetland Islands Council has the opportunity to help the DVSA and its customers, who are also the council’s residents. I hope it will not pass up that opportunity.

Car practical driving tests remain at Lerwick on an occasional basis, as has always been the case, meaning that tests are conducted when there is a substantial customer demand. However, the waiting time for a test there is 24 weeks. We recognise that that is not ideal. In September, a new in-house contract for the DVSA to run the theory driving test came into operation. Starting tomorrow, I am pleased to say, the new theory test centre opens in Lerwick, and two more will open next month, at Mid Yell and Symbister. While the DVSA regrets the slight delay in opening the theory test centres, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that having three test centres, where there was previously just one, amounts to a significant service improvement.

In conclusion, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be reassured that the DVSA is working hard for the people of Shetland to provide vital public services. I thank him for his hard work in this area over many years, and I will leave him to have the last word. However, I want to assure him that I will continue to work alongside him in finding a solution.

[Mr Carmichael]

May I speak, Ms Ghani?

[Ms Nusrat Ghani (in the Chair)]

It is highly unusual. You will have to be very swift, Mr Carmichael.

[Mr Carmichael]

The Minister, whom I thank for her answer, did suggest that Shetland Islands Council has been intransigent in this. I think it is fair to put it on the record that Shetland Islands Council first told DVSA in 2016 that it would be withdrawing from the site. It has extended the provision multiple times and, indeed, I understand that it has offered the provision of the materials to construct the site at Ladies brae. It has been exceptionally co-operative in what is the core function of the DVSA, not of Shetland Islands Council.

Question put and agreed to.

Cruise Industry

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd September 2021 Westminster Hall

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) on securing this debate.

In recent years, the cruise industry has become one of the most important and, occasionally, controversial parts of the visitor economy in the Northern Isles. I suspect we are not the only community around the coastline to find ourselves in that position. The industry has grown over the years, starting with just a few ships and gradually growing to more and bigger ships. As a consequence, we have lacked a strategic approach to the development of that particular part of the visitor economy. It is nobody’s fault, but it is a little like the frog in water that just gets warmer—eventually, we realise that there is a severe impact. A good number of local businesses in Orkney and Shetland are now highly dependent on cruise traffic. There are also a number of self-employed tour guides who have grown an industry that simply was not there before. They have certainly missed cruise traffic; its return will be important.

In all things we should try to find the positive from the negative. The absence of cruise ships since March 2020 and the beginning of their slow return is something that we should take opportunity from. I would like my communities to take a much more strategic approach to engaging with the industry, and, by the same token, I would like to see better engagement from the industry with my communities. In the past, the larger operators would often say “These are our terms of business; people can either take them or leave them. If they do not want them, we will not come to their communities.” I hope that as those operators rebuild and as we rebuild our relationship with them, we may be able to see that done rather differently.

There are real opportunities for some of the most economically fragile communities in the Northern Isles: places such as Fair Isle, which has a population of about 60 people. A small cruise boat coming into dock there can have a tremendous impact and can be a real opportunity. However, again, to get the maximum benefit from a visit from a cruise ship, communities like that will require a bit of support from outside agencies. Local councils, VisitScotland, the local economic development agencies, the Scottish Government and the UK Government should all be pulling together to find a new strategic approach that will allow every community in the country that engages with the industry to do so in a better, more strategic way. That way, the very different needs and opportunities that will go to a place such as Greenock or Southampton are not ones that will operate to the disadvantage of communities such as mine.

There are all sorts of opportunities from the industry, but we have to accept that there is a diversity of opportunities and all need to be accommodated. This is the point at which we can reboot that relationship, and I hope Governments and other public agencies, the industry and communities can all work together to do exactly that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Thank you very much for your excellent chairing of this debate, Mr Efford. I thank the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) for securing the debate.

I think my colleagues from Scotland, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) and my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) missed a trick: they did not talk about their UNESCO world heritage sites, nor did they talk about the quality of their coffee, which I am sure is truly wonderful, in Orkney and Shetland and in Inverclyde—as well as in Aberdeen, of course.

I also did not expect that we would be talking about Disney songs, so I will hold myself back from bursting into song. I could not think of an appropriate maritime song to sing, but I am sure my children will correct me later and tell me I have missed one—probably from “Moana” or “The Little Mermaid”.

Rather than focusing on covid, I want to talk and think about pre-covid and post-covid, what the cruise industry will look like and the benefits it will have for our communities. It is undoubtedly a massive success story. Between 2014 and 2019 we saw 90% growth in cruise ship calls and passenger numbers in Scotland. That is a staggering increase, and it shows the increase not only in the popularity of cruise ships, but in the ability of Scottish ports to take those cruise ships in and of Scottish communities to ensure that we provide the best possible services.

In Scotland, the cruise industry supports more than 800 employees and generates around £23 million gross value added for the Scottish economy. It also extends the tourism season in Orkney and Shetland. However, the key thing for me and for the SNP is that sustainable cruise tourism development must be the overarching requirement. I appreciate the different situation that Southampton and even Inverclyde find themselves in, in that they are cruise ports and less destinations—I am sure Inverclyde is a destination and so is Southampton, but they are involved in servicing the industry more than, say, Orkney and Shetland.

We need to ensure that the tourism that we see from cruise ships and cruise passengers benefits those local economies, and that local economies see the plus points of that. We have seen issues around Scotland with things such as the North Coast 500, which is excellent but has brought problems as well as positive benefits to those areas. We must ensure that we strike that balance for local communities.

Cruise ship stays make up 15% of overnight tourism volume in the highlands and islands, but they represent a much lower percentage of the overnight tourism spend there. I understand that that is the nature of cruising; that is how it works. However, we cannot see a race to the bottom between Scottish or British ports trying to allow cruise ships to come as cheaply as possible, without people visiting their local areas. We must see the benefit to those local areas. Although having cruise passengers on an island or in a community in Scotland is a great thing, it can also be unsettling for the residents and that local services are more stretched as a result. We need to make sure that balance is struck.

The harbour in Aberdeen is split between my constituency, Aberdeen North, and Aberdeen South. A new harbour is being built in Aberdeen South that will be able to accommodate 300 metre vessels with a maximum 10.5 metre draught. Before that was being built in my city, I did not know a huge amount about the cruise industry or how it worked for local communities. I continue to be concerned that areas around the new harbour in Aberdeen—among of the more deprived communities in the city—will not gain from the new harbour and cruise ships in the way that I would like them to, given what they have had to give up for it to be built, with the number of road closures and work that has been going on. I would like to see those communities benefit.

My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde mentioned the culture quarter, and we need to support local communities in doing that, to ensure that cruise ship visitors can spend money in the local area. That is what we need to see: the economic benefit coming to those areas as a result.

[Mr Carmichael]

The hon. Lady touches on something very important. The capacity for cruise ship passengers to spend money when in port is very often determined by the terms of the contract that they have with the cruise ship. That is why I say that in rebuilding the industry and looking at the impact it has on different parts of the country, we need that sense of partnership. We need our communities to be talking and to be able to influence the ships, as well as the other way around.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I absolutely agree, and I thought that the right hon. Gentleman’s speech was very thoughtful on that matter. He has really thought about the needs of his community. That is why I stressed that we must not have a race to the bottom. We do not want our ports fighting over who can give the cheapest terms because that will only hurt our communities; it will mean that our communities do not see the benefit. It would be much more positive if they worked together, both as local communities and in a more overarching strategic way, as he said.

It is really unfortunate that we have not had much co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments on green ports, in particular when we have been clear about the key things that we want: a focus on net zero and a focus on the real living wage. It is completely reasonable to say that people working in and around green ports, cruise ports or any other kind of port should be paid the real living wage. One of the biggest concerns that I hear, in particular on—slightly off topic—oil and gas supply vessels, is that people are not paid appropriately because they are on tickets from other countries and therefore they are paid less.

We need to make sure that we bear down—I do not like that phrase—on that and reduce the number of people not being paid a wage that they can live on. We need to ensure that we have laws and rules to fix that problem in a maritime way, and that the people working in ports are paid the real living wage, not the national living wage. It is such an important industry, and it is one that will continue to grow. We need to make sure that we see the benefits for the people working directly in the industry and for the communities seeing the visits.

People travelling on cruise ships get to visit some of the most inaccessible places across the UK—no offence to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. They get to visit places that cannot be reached by hopping on a bike or a train. It is really important that the people who are travelling on these ships and the cruise companies recognise that these communities are fairly rural and cannot necessarily deal with that influx without support. This is a really positive industry; it is a massive success story, particularly for Scotland and its more rural communities. I would like to see it continue to grow, but we probably need to work more with local communities to ensure that they see its benefits.

UK Maritime Sector

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Westminster Hall

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Sir George. I congratulate the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) on securing the debate, and thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it.

Such debates are all too rare. That, in itself, is an illustration of what the briefing from Nautilus calls “sea blindness”. One of the biggest difficulties the maritime industry faces is getting the political attention it needs in just about every respect—whether for its own development, for health and safety on vessels, or for minimum wage implementation. It all happens far from sight at sea. This debate is a welcome opportunity for those of us with an interest in the maritime industry to put some of those concerns on the record.

It has been a difficult couple of years for those working in our maritime industry. During lockdown, many seafarers found themselves in difficult situations, caught between different lockdown regulations—testing, tracing, self-isolating—in different countries. In its briefing, Nautilus highlights its survey, which shows that about 11,000 maritime professionals fell through all the gaps in the safety nets; none was able to get assistance from the job retention scheme or the self-employment income support scheme. That statistic illustrates the different way in which the maritime industries work compared to those based onshore.

Both the right hon. Member for North Durham and the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) believe that this is an industry with a future, and I endorse that sentiment. However, I would say that there is nothing inevitable about the UK maritime sector having a bright future; it will require a determined and driven strategic agenda from the Government to ensure that that actually happens.

We have seen the issue at different times over the years. Going back 15 or 20 years, the Blair Government introduced the tonnage tax—a really good, welcome initiative. However, it never really achieved its full potential, beyond getting tonnage to flag under the red ensign, because it was difficult for the Government to get the conditionality attached to it: getting the number of officers trained under the tonnage tax, and then getting the shipping companies that had trained them to keep them on. There was a commitment to train officers in order to qualify under the tonnage tax. After that box was ticked, there was a commitment to retain them for a year, but after that, there was a cliff edge. There was a glut of one-year post-qualification officers.

That is the challenge facing the Government, and I do not envy them. It is difficult for any individual country to take on companies operating in an effectively global environment. This is probably the best working definition of a global industry. In its briefing, the RMT illustrates some of the challenges affecting the enforcement of minimum wage legislation. This was something of particular concern a few years ago, when I discovered that many of those working on the freight ships going from Aberdeen to Shetland, in my constituency, were deemed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs not to be in its remit for enforcing the minimum wage because the boats operated in international waters. Its definition of international water is being outside the 12-mile limit.

I give credit to HMRC and the Government for having closed some of the loopholes, but we know that many of the jobs advertised will come nowhere near the level of minimum wage protection. The RMT briefing for today quotes some examples of that:

“The expansion of Irish Ferries into Dover is a case in point. Irish ferries pay below the National Minimum Wage to its Cypriot registered ships”.

That is Irish Ferries coming into Dover in Cypriot registered ships—seeing that, one begins to understand the complexity of international shipping. It continues:

“as revealed by recent inspection of the WB Yeats by the Inspector for International Transport Workers Federation (ITF) in France (Irish Ferries have blocked ITF access in UK and Irish ports)”.

It then quotes the pay rates on the W. B. Yeats, Rosslare to Cherbourg, in June 2021. A bar and galley steward gets an hourly rate of £6.47; an able seafarer has an hourly rate of £6.89; both a cook and a plumber had an hourly rate of £7.42; a receptionist earned £7.69; and a bosun earned £9.39. In fact, going back a few years, some of the ships that were operating in the North sea were paying figures that were less than half the lowest figures in the RMT briefing. It shows that, because of the way the industry is structured and operates, enforcement of conditions is a game of regulatory whack-a-mole.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

I am grateful to my good friend for giving way. I congratulate him on the work that he has done in the last couple of years to ensure that national minimum wage rates are paid to seafarers. Does he agree that what we would like to hear about from the Minister is a proactive approach to ensuring the enforcement of the national minimum wage?

[Mr Carmichael]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is characteristically generous. Others in the House, him included, have been working on the issue as well. It comes back to the first point I made: as a former Prime Minister used to say, sunlight is the best disinfectant. People like us, talking about issues like that, on occasions like this, do allow pressure to be brought bear, which ultimately leads to progress being made.

The right hon. Member for North Durham spoke about the need for a more proactive, and less competition based, approach to the awarding of contracts. In principle I agree with him, and I understand what he is saying when offering comparators from Europe and around the world.

To sound one note of caution, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) knows, we have a difficult recent history of this north of the border. Two ferries are being procured from a shipyard owned by the Scottish Government: the replacement for the Glen Sannox and Hull 802—so called because, although it is now heading towards five years overdue, it still does not have a name. Partnership between Government and industry of the sort that the right hon. Member for North Durham is talking about worked very effectively with the procurement of the aircraft carriers and is something we should be taking seriously. However, the rigours of private sector involvement are needed to ensure that these ferries are obtained on time and give value to the taxpayer, as well as giving longer-term security for the workforce in the domestic shipyards we have left.

We saw this week that, in the tender for the construction of the two ferries to serve Islay and Jura, two of the shipyards tendering are in Turkey, one is Romanian, and one is in Poland. Not a single shipyard in Scotland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom is now being invited to tender by the Scottish Government. That shows that we need to have the strategy that everyone else has spoken about. If we have a gesture here on a difficult news day there, we do not do any favours for the people who work in these shipyards, never mind island communities such as Islay and Jura.

[Sir George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. I will call the Front Benchers at 2.30. The right hon. Gentleman has already taken up more time than will be allowed to a Front-Bench spokesman, and there are other speakers trying to get in. There is no time limit, but I would ask him to bear that in mind.

[Mr Carmichael]

I have effectively, Sir George, covered the material that I intended to cover. With your restrictions in mind, I am happy to conclude.

[Sir George Howarth (in the Chair)]

I now feel obliged to impose a time limit of seven minutes on Back-Bench speeches. That should enable everybody who wants to speak to get in.

Aviation Industry

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Westminster Hall

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) on securing this timely debate.

I completely agree with everything the right hon. Gentleman said about testing and the opportunity for testing at scale at our airports. He focused on long-haul routes, but on the routes that serve my constituency in the northern isles, it could be even more transformative. If we as an island community with few points of entry, and much lower rates of infection at the moment, could allow people in and out with confidence, it would be of enormous assistance. I very much hope that his words and mine will be heard in the parts of Government here and in Edinburgh where they need to be heard.

It is not rocket science; it is pretty straightforward. In an island community, if we get transport right, just about everything else—economic development, public services and the rest of it—falls into place. Aviation is critical, both within the islands to shift doctors, vets and teachers around the smaller island groups, and between the islands and mainland communities. Those are my principal areas of concern, but we need the same level of connectivity and interlining that other communities have. It is about us getting not just to Aberdeen, Edinburgh or Glasgow, but onwards to Heathrow or wherever else we may wish to go. For our businesses and communities, that connectivity is absolutely critical.

The situation facing Loganair, the operator of the lifeline services throughout the highlands and islands, is pretty serious at the moment. I should say parenthetically that I bow to nobody in my appreciation and admiration of the staff and management of Loganair, which just before the pandemic took on some of the Flybe routes, so it may soon be more familiar to other Members in this Chamber. I appreciate their professionalism and dedication and the approach they take to the business. They understand that they are there not just for an economic purpose, but for a social and community purpose. They are an exemplar for others, and a flying example of what corporate social responsibility means.

Loganair tells me that it faces a pretty bleak future. It has done well to provide a skeleton service throughout the lockdown, but as it looks towards bookings in quarter 1 of 2021, it sees very little to inspire confidence. It has the same fixed costs as all other airlines, including airport charges, standing charges and the cost of plane purchase and rental. Like other businesses it has the opportunity to put staff into furlough, but that is just part of the story.

In the Northern Isles, we are about to enter the third of three winters for our visitor economy. When we get to the end of the furlough period, at the end of March, we will be looking to open up and get our visitor economy going, because that is absolutely crucial to our running again. The availability of good, frequent, reliable air services in that time will be crucial.

On reliability, in the few seconds that remain to me, I place on the record yet again my exasperation at the fact that the Scottish Government, through Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, continue to insist on the removal of air traffic control officers from airports throughout the highlands and islands, to centralise them all in Inverness. The service is not just good but reliable, so that should be put on the back burner for the foreseeable future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Sounds like Harry Potter, doesn’t it?

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What steps he is taking to protect the rights of UK seafarers during the covid-19 pandemic.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Kelly Tolhurst)]

We recognise our international obligations, our borders remain open to seafarers, and we are enforcing their rights under the maritime labour convention.

[Mr Carmichael]

Some 400,000 sailors around the world are stranded as a result of covid restrictions. That requires international action and our country needs to take a lead. Will the Minister do that?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I very much thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I happen to be able to inform him that next week I will be holding an international summit with a particular focus on crew change and how we can do our best for seafarers internationally.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 12th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Stephenson]

Under this Government, the Metrolink has been extended to reach new destinations right across Greater Manchester. The most recent extension to the Trafford centre is due to open later this month. While the development of light rail proposals is a matter for the Mayoral combined authority, we will work closely with them. I hope to see the Metrolink extended to my hon. Friend’s constituency. As the Chancellor said yesterday, we are getting investment done.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

16. What his policy is on the UK’s membership of the European Aviation Safety Agency after the end of the transition period.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps)]

The UK will leave EASA at the end of the transition period.

[Mr Carmichael]

The Secretary of State will be aware that that news has not been well received by the aviation industry. The ADS, which represents over 1,100 UK companies, has noted that the UK and the EU could have an arrangement, in the same way that Switzerland does, giving us full membership of EASA without even having any jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Why would that be a problem for the Government?

[Grant Shapps]

Because the EU said in its statement of negotiating parameters on 15 January that UK participation in EASA is not viable from its perspective. It would not be viable from a UK perspective either, because we would be subject to ECJ rulings in one form or another, and certainly, without any doubt, we would have to accept the European Commission creating the laws under which we would exist— and this country voted for Brexit. However, we will have a bilateral aviation safety agreement—a so-called BASA. We will also have a comprehensive air transport agreement—a so-called CATA—to enable smooth transport to continue.