Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Negotiations need to go on. This does not stop—

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Evans, is it acceptable for Members to speak on an issue and not declare an interest when they have received money from trade unions?

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 18th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Lady has got the meme for her Facebook page. Unfortunately, she wholly misrepresents what the Bill is doing. Environmental standards will be maintained or enhanced. At the moment, the laws that come down from Brussels on the environment and land cover everything from the Arctic to the Mediterranean. This Bill is a great opportunity to maintain, to enhance and to review what more we can do to make things better for our environment across the UK. We already have flagship legislation in place: the Environment Act 2021, the Fisheries Act 2020 and the Agriculture Act 2020. The Office for Environmental Protection has been fully established to enforce those elevated environmental rules and standards. The water framework directive covers our water. Instead of misrepresenting what the Bill does, why not take the opportunity to ensure that we enhance provision for what we are not maintaining?

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Listening to the Opposition, we might think that the EU is the land of milk and honey when it comes to the environment. This is the same EU that put fossil fuels and gas in last year’s green taxonomy. Getting out of the EU allows us to have our own taxonomies and to make far greener efforts than naming gas as a green technology, which it is not.

[Ms Ghani]

We can make sure that we have a better focus on renewables, and we can take the decisions that work best for our communities. Fundamentally, we are maintaining and enhancing. We must not forget that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been able to introduce substantial law on water, animals and land. I have covered the dashboard, and I assume colleagues will now be pouncing on it.

Departments have been actively working on their retained EU law reform plans for well over 18 months to ensure that appropriate action is taken before the sunset date. Additional work to lift obsolete laws will inevitably be slow, but that work will continue. We cannot allow the reform of retained EU law to remain merely a possibility. The sunset provision guarantees that retained EU law will not become an ageing relic dragging down the UK. It incentivises the genuine review and reform of retained EU law in a way that works best for the UK. What reforms are desirable will differ from policy area to policy area.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Dean Russell), the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, said on Second Reading, the environment is one of the Government’s top priorities. We will ensure that environmental law works for the UK and improves our environmental outcomes. As I said, we will be maintaining and enhancing. The Bill does not change the Environment Act, and we remain committed to delivering our legally binding target to halt nature’s decline by 2030.

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Madders]

I will go on to explain why that deadline is inappropriate and, indeed, impractical.

The Government are using the Bill as a motivational tool. That message has not got through to DEFRA, which, as we know, is considered to be the Department with the most regulations, although, of course, until we see a definitive list, we cannot know that for sure. At the moment, according to the Secretary of State, there are probably about 1,100 regulations in DEFRA that are subject to the sunset. I will not get into whether the word “about” is good enough in this context, but the number of civil servants that we have been told are working on this in that Department is three. It is no good this Bill being used as a way of focusing Departments’ minds if they do not have the resources to do the job properly in the first place.

This is a serious issue. The House of Lords Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee even complained about a lack of engagement from that Department after not receiving a response from it to five separate letters. We know from a written ministerial answer that the Department itself does not know how much the exercise will cost or how many staff it will need. If the deadline is meant to focus attention, it has not succeeded in doing so yet.

[Alexander Stafford]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Member’s speech, especially about the timeline. My question is this: when does he want this to end. My constituents in Rother Valley voted in 2016 to leave the EU—lock, stock—not to wait. Even now, I would want to bring the deadline forward, because we should have left fully years ago. When do the Opposition and those who want to stifle our leaving want us to leave—2024, 2025, 2026 or never? I want to leave fully and utterly now.

[Justin Madders]

If people are going to intervene, they should read the Bill and the amendments, because they would see our suggestion for a deadline. Of course, as everyone else in this Chamber seems to know, we have already left the EU, so this is not about leaving the EU, but about the remaining laws.

The Regulatory Policy Committee has said that setting a deadline is not enough and that a stronger argument is needed for choosing that particular date, and we agree. What is far more convincing than the arbitrary date that we are presented with are the warnings that we have received that there is not sufficient capacity in the civil service for a genuinely effective appraisal of the regulations that the Bill seeks to remove in the timescale allowed. The case for the cliff edge is incredibly weak. The arguments for removing it and putting it on a more realistic footing are much stronger.

The potential for things to be missed is clear. If worse comes to worst and some vital regulation ceases to be law by accident and nobody notices until it is too late, our constituents will rightly ask us, “What on earth were you doing? What were you thinking of?” No wonder the impact assessment on the Bill is silent on the issue of the sunset date.

The Regulatory Policy Committee has made it clear that it believes that the analysis of that sunset date is inadequate. This is a deadline in search of a headline. Presumably, that headline will be, “Free at last”. I would suggest that a more apposite headline might be. “The sun has set on your employment rights, your consumer rights and your environmental protections.” Indeed, the sun has set on parliamentary democracy.

Overall, the Regulatory Policy Committee puts a red rating on the impact assessment of the Bill as not fit for purpose, yet here we are, ploughing on as if it will be all right on the night.

Ban on Fracking for Shale Gas Bill

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

I rise to reaffirm my opposition to fracking in Rother Valley. I believe I am the only colleague in the House who not only has two potential fracking sites in my constituency—Harthill and Woodsetts—but actually lives in one of the villages threatened, Harthill. My position since being elected has been consistent: I oppose fracking in our area. Indeed, it was the very first thing I spoke about in the House of Commons Chamber after being elected, and I rebelled against the Government on the issue in May 2021, being the only Conservative to vote to ban all fracking, including exploration.

I was therefore looking forward to reconfirming this in the House today, but the motion before us is not about fracking; it is about confidence in this Government. It is about who runs the country—the elected party, the Conservatives, or Labour, which lost the general election. This, unfortunately, is a cynical attempt by Labour to play party political games. This is not a game. These are people’s lives. These are people’s communities. This is a dastardly, cynical move to create division, and to weaponise the issue rather than working together on a cross-party basis to put in a ban on fracking. That is what is wrong with the state of our politics. All that matters is cheap points—[Laughter.] Labour Members are laughing at people in Harthill; they are laughing at people in Woodsetts. This is cheap point scoring, ultimately chasing misleading headlines rather than working with us on this side of the House to make better policy for our communities.

Fracking is unnecessary, harmful to the environment, and it will have no impact on international gas prices. It is yesterday’s technology, not an answer to today’s problems. I have had several meetings with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on this matter, and we heard him today in the Chamber. He has made it crystal clear that there must be a majority of local independent community support for fracking to proceed—he used the word “veto”. Let us be honest: in some parts of the country there may indeed be that support. I am the elected Member of Parliament for Rother Valley. I am not the Member for the Rhondda—I represent Harthill, not Hartlepool, and Woodsetts, not Woking. Who am I to dictate to the rest of the UK what other communities want? That is undemocratic.

In my local villages there is no community support for fracking, and today we have been given a cast-iron guarantee that these changes will at last put communities, even down to parish level, at the heart of any future decision—no more worries about the changing nature of Government, and those directly affected by this issue will ultimately have the final say. That is correct. Harthill and Woodsetts are riddled with old mine workings, and the fault lines are already severely weakened by coal extraction, right beneath where companies wish to frack. My constituents do not wish to live next to an industrial site. The traffic movement associated with fracking presents a huge risk to pedestrian safety, and could destroy local flora and fauna and ruin the unspoilt countryside. The proposed site in Woodsetts is only yards away from residential homes of the elderly and vulnerable, which is deeply depressing.

Let me again be clear: I am against fracking in Rother Valley, but I am also against this disgraceful attempt by Labour to overturn the Government. The policy the Government have announced today gives more power to local residents to reject fracking—I want them to reject fracking. I reassure the House that when there is the local community vote, and the vote that actually matters to communities—and as a resident of Harthill I will get a vote—I will not only vote against fracking in Rother Valley, but I will be leading the charge against it.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Shale Gas Production

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

We are not turning our back on anybody. We have been absolutely clear that it is vital for us to keep our energy diversity and our energy security. We are not turning our back on anybody or anything, but Government policy on this issue is unchanged: we need to see both the scientific evidence and the local community support before we can proceed, as we set out in our 2019 manifesto.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

It is reassuring to hear from the Government that the support of the community is going to be at the heart of any decisions, because I can tell the Minister that in Rother Valley there is no community support for fracking. In Harthill and Woodsetts, where there is the potential for wells, nobody wants fracking—in fact, the fracking site in Woodsetts is mere yards from an old people’s retirement home. Will the Minister confirm that the Government will focus more on renewables, and not on fracking, because every single minute that they spend talking about fracking is a minute not spent talking about renewables and a minute that engineers are not working on renewables? We need to get renewables online, not fracking.

Russian Oil Import Ban

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I am really delighted that the hon. Member raises this. I think he has raised it at every BEIS questions for the past 18 months, and I will keep saying what I have said before. We are interested in the technology, but I need to look at the specific proposals he is suggesting, and we obviously need to work out whether it is value for money. Those are the parameters we always look at.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Yesterday at the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, we had a panel of experts talking about this very issue, and when the issue of fracking was raised, they were unanimous in their voice that it would be neither effective nor cost-efficient, would not do anything for the price and was actually a bit of a red herring. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that fracking is a red herring, and that we should instead focus for energy on more renewables and even more from the North sea, because fracking just does not work in this country?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I think we can look at a range of technologies. We looked at the fracking issue—I was the Energy Minister at the time—and there were issues regarding the seismicity of various projects. However, we have always had an open mind, and we have always said, and I will repeat it, that we will support shale gas exploration if it can be done in a safe and sustainable way. We will be led by the science on whether this is indeed possible, so there are lots of experiments and empirical evidence that we need to consider.

Oil and Gas Producers: Windfall Tax

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Edward Miliband]

I am very proud of the investments that the last Labour Government made in our public services.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Edward Miliband]

No, I am going to make progress.

The truth is—we cannot get away from it—that the Conservatives are a party bankrolled to the tune of nearly £5 million by oil and gas interests since 2016. Bankrolled by oil and gas executives, they cannot act on behalf of the British people.

Let me end by saying this. The British people are fed up with what they have seen from the Government in recent months. They want a Government who are on their side. They want a Government who will act for them. That is why we need a windfall tax. It is a test of whose side they are on, and whose side we are all on in this House—on the side of gas and oil companies making billions of profits, or on the side of millions of struggling families. We know whose side we are on. If this Government were truly on the side of the British people, they would act, and that is why I urge Members on both sides of the House to vote for our motion tonight.

Subsidy Control Bill (Fourth sitting)

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Bill Esterson]

No, not at all. I have no idea at all why the hon. Member thinks that is where my or my hon. Friend’s arguments were going. We are very much in favour of foreign direct investment to this country and investing overseas as well. Indeed, the success of foreign direct investment in the north-east of England under the Thatcher Government has been put at risk by the attitude of this Government towards the Japanese and the rather strained relations, which hopefully are beginning to repair since the UK-Japan deal. However, let us not underestimate the reputational damage that was done by the way some of that was handled.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Conservative Members appreciate what you are trying to say, but the fact that there is a lot of confusion and concern about how you are saying it shows me that the amendment should not stand. Rather than just saying “exceptional”, which covers what we need it to do, we have this definition. Even under “critical national infrastructure”, 13 industries are officially defined by the Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure, none of which is steel. We can argue for steel, but it is not actually listed in the official categories. It just creates confusion. That is why I do not think the amendment works.

[The Chair]

I remind Members that interventions need to be short, and can we lose the yous, please?

Subsidy Control Bill (Third sitting)

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair for these sittings, Mr Sharma.

I completely agree with everything the hon. Member for Aberdeen North says and with what my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston said in moving the amendment. What is needed from Government is the commitment to hit net zero and the mechanisms to do so. That needs to go right across Government, in everything we do.

I take on board the point the Minister has already made in today’s deliberations that not everything is in the Bill; I understand that and I accept it. However, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North argued extremely well, there is a strong—we would say an essential—case for net zero to be at the heart of the regime put in place by this legislation.

Schedule 2 does not mention transport, agriculture or housing insulation, to name just three examples, so it is not comprehensive as currently drafted. That is why we need to go much further to meet the scale of the challenge in the subsidy control regime that we are debating putting in place. The Budget yesterday did not address net zero, and it is frankly extremely worrying that it did not, especially in the run-up to COP26.

I am afraid the announcements last week did not constitute a plan and were nowhere near meeting the requirement to hit the net zero targets this country is committed to in the timely fashion that is needed, especially in terms of the front-loading we all now understand is essential in all areas except the energy industry. It is needed in transport, in building insulation and in agriculture; it is needed across industry. Unless this is in the Bill, setting out the requirement for net zero to be at the heart of the subsidy regime, I am afraid we as a country, and this Government as a Government, will not be doing what is needed.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Do we need to put net zero down on the subsidy as it is? If the hon. Gentleman remembers our Paris agreement only a few years ago, he knows we agreed to get to net zero by later this century. Now we have moved it forward to 2050, and I hope—I am sure the Government hope—that we will move our net zero agreement even further forward as time progresses. Will this proposal not make the Bill a bit out of date in a few decades’ time, when it should stand for longer?

[Bill Esterson]

The amendment, because of the way it is phrased, envisages those changes and the increasing urgency. Let us remind ourselves that, on our present track, we are looking at a temperature rise of more than 1.5 °C through the existing commitments and policy decisions not just of this country but of Governments around the world. It is important to acknowledge that we cannot do it on our own, as we are responsible for only 1% of emissions, but when we are trying to show world leadership with the presidency of COP26, it is incumbent on us to show that leadership in everything we do, and we, as Members on this Committee, have an opportunity right here, right now to support making that commitment and putting it into legislation.

Given the way the amendment is crafted, the wording,

“the United Kingdom reaching its net-zero commitments”,

does stand the test of time as and when things change. The challenge the hon. Member for Rother Valley makes is another reminder that we need to bring things further forward and that it has become important to do that over time. At the moment, we have interim dates to hit, with ambitions in 2030, and the Government have made some progress there, but by no means enough to do what is necessary to keep us to 1.5°.

Subsidy Control Bill (First sitting)

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I am afraid that this might be the last question.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

Q On the map situation, it seems to me that you are trying to recreate the previous situation with the EU. If you mention Grimsby, you might as well mention Rother Valley. I can tell you that the previous system does not work. My concern is that if areas get more prosperous, they will be over-subsidised, and if areas get less prosperous over the next five or 10 years, they will miss out on subsidies. To me, there is no flexibility with the map. Could you talk to me briefly about how you will keep it flexible, so that when areas change financially, they can benefit or, equally, come out of the system we have in mind?

Professor Fothergill: First, I would remind you that the map is not simply an EU concept. If anything, an assisted area map was something that the UK sold to the European Union as being a good idea, because we had done it for lots of years. The point is that the map should not be set in stone for all time, of course. Indeed, over the years, the assisted area map in the UK has evolved and changed. Under the EU rules, it used to change on a seven-year cycle. I remember that even before we joined the European Union—I am getting long in the tooth—we changed and revised our assisted area map on several occasions. If an area gets more prosperous, it will come down a tier. If another area is hit by a closure of a major employer, we would have the flexibility to up its status on the map. The map is not for all time; it is a tool, and the details can be adjusted.

[The Chair]

I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee.

Examination of Witnesses

Thomas Pope and Professor Stephanie Rickard gave evidence.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Alexander Stafford Excerpts

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Imran Hussain]

My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a very valuable point. The most pertinent point that he makes is that many countries in Europe are already ahead of us and have already acted in this area. Let me say this to him: the reason that Government Members are loud and make points that go towards accepting in part that there is this need is that they understand that, when they go back to their constituencies, there is a different argument that they have to face there. I urge them today to seriously consider this very sensible Bill.

The Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North, with the support of trade unions, working people and the Labour party, would rebalance employment protection so that it is no longer overwhelmingly weighted in favour of the employer, and put workers and trade unions back on an equal footing. It would place power back into the hands of the workers who create the wealth, rather than the chief executives and shareholders who hoard it.

The Bill would also reward those countless employers who are doing the right thing by their staff in ensuring that they are well paid, well protected and well looked after, but who are being undercut by unscrupulous competitors. Yet even as Ministers claim to oppose fire and rehire, they are clearly telling their MPs to vote against the Bill, as is evident today. The reality is that the Government have nothing to offer working people.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

In some ways, I am a bit disappointed, because the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) made a bipartisan speech, but unfortunately the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain) is not. Fire and rehire is a cross-party issue that Conservatives in our constituencies are dealing with on the ground as well. In Rother Valley, Adam Tinsley, the councillor for Maltby East, fought against Sheffield University, which was going to use fire and rehire, as a Unite the union representative. I commend him for that. Let us take some of the partisanship out of the debate and work together to solve the problem.

[Imran Hussain]

The hon. Gentleman says that he supports a councillor who stands up against fire and rehire in his constituency. I say to him that he should stand up in the House and support fire and rehire [Interruption.]—support ending fire and rehire. Then he can take that message back.

Of course, neither I nor anybody on these Benches intend to make this a partisan issue. [Interruption.] Let me finish. Our issue is that the Government have instructed Conservative Members to vote against the Bill. [Interruption.] Well, in that case, I look forward to welcoming Conservative Members in our Lobby today.

Let us look at the Government’s shameful record. I am not surprised that they are voting against stopping fire and rehire, because over the last decade, they have done nothing but openly attack and undermine workers’ rights. They introduced the Trade Union Act 2016 that stripped away the power of trade unions and made it harder for working people to organise in defence of their rights. They preside over an employment tribunal backlog that means it is almost impossible to receive justice for mistreatment in the workplace. They leave the post of director of labour market enforcement vacant at a time when we are seeing more workers exploited in the workplace. They promised us an employment Bill that we are still waiting for almost two years later. Is it any wonder that we have a labour shortage when the Government could not care less about the rights of working people?

We all know that the Prime Minister likes to talk about levelling up and building back better, but the Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot talk about levelling up without levelling up employment protections. They cannot talk about building back better without building a better employment rights settlement. They cannot talk about fire and rehire being a “bully boy tactic” without voting for this Bill today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Newlands]

I will move on. I will come back to the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] Or not, if he is going to huff. It is up to him.

I do not believe that it is any coincidence that those countries with heftier employment rights around Europe have better and more robust economies. We can see the results of precarious employment around society right now: labour shortages in all sorts of sectors of the economy and lacklustre demand experienced by retailers. If our economy is 80% centred on the service sector, we need people spending money on those services. Leaving workers with the fear that tomorrow could see their employer slash their wages or show them the door is a sure-fire way to depress spending, demand, and ultimately hinder economic recovery. Workers in Europe have no such fears, and it is surely a factor in their continued long-term outstripping of the UK that employment rights are given such importance and credence by their national Governments.

Whatever ideological objections some Members on the Tory Benches have to improving workers’ rights—I have no doubt a few of them consider the factory Acts a gross impertinence—they can surely see the economic self-interest that protecting workers from fire and rehire would mean for employer, employee, and our society and economy as a whole. It is no wonder Ministers want to isolate the UK further and further from Europe; they want the UK isolated from the norms of employment rights that apply there. They want workers in the UK isolated from the economic benefits that enhanced rights would bring. They want the UK isolated from the basic standards of decency that apply across the continent. On decency, I will give way.

[Alexander Stafford]

Is not one of the big differences between what we are doing in the UK and what they do on the continent, that on the continent they have mass immigration across the EU, which is driving down wages, whereas in this country, now that we have left the EU, we can look after workers better, not rely on poorly paid labourers and actually get high quality high-skilled jobs? That is the fundamental difference: we want better jobs and better pay for people, rather than relying on cheap labour.

[Gavin Newlands]

Well, I find that rather astonishing. The hon. Gentleman talks about improving workers’ lot, yet they are voting down this legislation today. The lack of self-awareness in some Conservative Members is astonishing. They are very fond of talking about levelling up, but not, mysteriously, when it comes to levelling up workers’ rights against the power wielded by multibillion pound corporations and their multimillionaire managers. The idea that the UK should level up to European standards is anathema to them.

I am coming to my conclusion as I appreciate that there are many Members who want to speak today, but I would like briefly to take this opportunity to mention my own Devolution (Employment) (Scotland) Bill, which is on the Order Paper today. It is an unlikely contender for Royal Assent, given that it is at the bottom of the Order Paper today, but it is an attempt to prise employment law from the clammy grip of the Treasury Bench as far as Scotland is concerned. Do not worry, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not speak to it; I mention it only because I fear that the Tories will vote down the Bill before us today. To my mind, that will be the straw that broke the camel’s back. No more should Scottish workers be forced to suffer the consequences of unthinking and uncaring Tory Governments. Dovetailing nicely with that is the fact that the Scottish Government supported my legislation last year and that banning fire and rehire was also in the Scottish National party manifesto for the Scottish elections in May, in which we received our record vote.

If this UK Government continue to stick their head in the sand and depress workers’ rights below the level seen in most other civilised countries, they should not be surprised if Scotland chooses civilisation instead of the race to the bottom that seems to be happening to workers here. Workers across these isles should all be accorded the respect and dignity they deserve, and have that backed up with the force of law where required. I commend the Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) on securing the Second Reading of his private Member’s Bill and on the way in which he has engaged with both sides of the House, as well as with unions, workers and employers. I met him twice over the summer, and indeed, again this week, to discuss his ambitions for the Bill. In a slightly surreal surprise moment, he leaped out of a bar in Manchester at our party conference to lobby me as I moved from event to event. I know that he wants to be associated with the party of workers, but that was an extreme way of doing it. However, I welcome his approach and I jest, because I know that he has engaged on this issue and is committed to finding a workable solution to address the issue of fire and rehire, which is clearly important for Members of the House. I have stood here many times before to address the House on this issue.

Let me answer the charge from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) about sending out an unambiguous message. We do send the message out and we have been really clear. We do not have to do it through this particular Bill. I was really attracted to the approach of my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris), when she talked about not having primary legislation to address this, but looking at other ways—including the code of practice that she proposes—for the reasons that she talked about relating to not having unintended consequences.

[Alexander Stafford]

Can we make it fully clear that Government Members, regardless of what is going on, are against the abuse of fire and rehire? I stand against it for the residents of Rother Valley and I am sure that the Minister does. Will he clarify that once and for all and make it clear for everyone listening at home?

[Paul Scully]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The unambiguous message is that using fire and rehire as a bully-boy negotiating tactic is absolutely inappropriate. However, and I will develop this point later, I do not believe that the Bill as it stands—even if it is amended, because we do not believe that we need primary legislation to achieve these ends—will have the intended effect, because it will not ban fire and rehire, as the hon. Member for Brent North said. I think he needs a bigger badge to explain what it actually does do, in his opinion. However, we want to get rid of using fire and rehire as a negotiating tactic, as a bully-boy tactic, and that is what the other measures that we are proposing seek to achieve.