18:59 - The House having divided: - Ayes: 230 / Noes: 326 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “Government” to end and insert
“to consult to ensure there is a robust system of local consent, and clear advice on seismic limits and safety, before any hydraulic fracturing for shale gas may take place; and believes that such consultation must consider how the views of regional mayors, local authorities and parishes should be reflected as well as the immediate concerns of those most directly affected.”
I thank the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) for raising this important topic. I recognise that many Members and their constituents have concerns about shale gas, and that is why we will consult on the system of local consent and provide clear advice on seismicity and safety before any hydraulic fracturing for shale gas takes place.
Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
I am sorry to intervene so soon on my right hon. Friend’s speech, and I am grateful to him for giving way. He will be aware of deep concerns in Sussex about fracking, and they are concerns that I share, not least because our 2019 manifesto said:
“We will not support fracking unless the science shows categorically that it”
is safe, which I do not think it does. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that, in the Government’s consultation paper he has just referred to on local consent, they will include an option for local referenda arranged by local authorities and overseen by the Electoral Commission?
Mr Rees-Mogg
My right hon. Friend has pre-empted a couple of paragraphs of my speech, because I was going to say that the consultation should consider the use of local referendums. I think that is one of the ways in which local consent could be indicated.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr Rees-Mogg
Not at the moment.
We want to ensure that the consultation considers the views of regional Mayors and local authorities, as well as the immediate concerns of those most directly affected. I also want it to consider the views of MPs, as well as the use of local referendums, as I said to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb). We will consult on the mechanism, but I can assure the House that any process of evidencing local support must be independent rather than directly by the companies themselves, and if evidence of appropriate local support for any development is insufficient, that development should not proceed. Local communities will have a veto, so I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) that if the people in his constituency do not want fracking, they will not have it.
Simon Hoare
Could my right hon. Friend confirm, for clarity’s sake, that the moratorium will remain in place while the process of consultation is agreed and that it will remain in place until it is approved by a positive vote in this place following a debate on the Floor of the House? Can he also confirm that the Government will indeed press their amendment today to a Division, if time allows and such circumstances are created?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I would like to make it absolutely clear that we need local consent before anything happens.
Mr Rees-Mogg
No.
Let me be clear to my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) that once the consultation on the mechanism for ascertaining a community’s view has been completed, the results will be brought to the House for approval, which I think he was also asking. If the House does not approve, fracking could not go ahead. Even if the House were to approve a mechanism, local communities would still have to consent in accordance with the mechanism. I reiterate: local communities will have a veto.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I want to take the Secretary of State back to the word “unless” in our manifesto, where we said that we would not support fracking
“unless the science shows categorically that it can be done safely.”
Will he confirm that the sense of that word is that we would need, at very least, a new rapid evidence review about safety? Will he commit to that and to the manifesto on which he and I were elected?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think his suggestion to have a rapid review of the evidence is eminently sensible.
Rebecca Pow
I thank my right hon. Friend for graciously giving way. He might want to clarify that this debate is a bit of a game, and is not exactly about fracking. If we are talking about fracking, scientific evidence and data is so critical—it is everything we base our policies on. Does he agree that the data should not just be about seismic activity, and that the effect on water will be critical? I do not just mean water that is put down the drilling space; I mean the effect on hydrology in future years. It is critical that the Government are seen to be serious about the scientific evidence on this.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend on both counts. She is right to say that trying to take control of the Order Paper is parliamentary interweaving rather than the substance of the debate. To take control of the Order Paper, people need to have won a majority in the election. That is how our system works The experience that we had in 2017 to 2019 proved how bad it is for Parliament when the Order Paper is messed around with, so I think that part of it is bad.
On the point regarding water, my hon. Friend is absolutely spot on. That is one of the keys to how things could be done safely, and we must be certain that the water used on site, and water that may be near sites, is safe.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Rees-Mogg
I think my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) wanted to intervene, and I will happily give way to him.
Steve Brine
That is very kind of the Secretary of State. I am not concerned about the threat that local consent will go the wrong way in my constituency, because I do not believe for a minute that my constituents would give consent to fracking in our area. The shadow Secretary of State took an intervention about the Planning Inspectorate, and the Secretary of State said that local people will have a veto over that issue. Will he be clear that the Planning Inspectorate will not have a veto over local people?
Mr Rees-Mogg
Let me be absolutely clear: local communities will have a veto. If fracking does not get local consent—what form that local consent must take will be consulted on, and it could be, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton asked, by local referendum. That is what the consultation will be about. If local consent is withheld, that is a veto and it will not be overruled by national Government.
Simon Hoare
In fairness, the Secretary of State is trying to address the serious concern that he knows exists on these Benches, and many of us are grateful to him for that. I think he said this in response to my earlier intervention, but I would like him to clarify this point. When he brings back the local consent process, the tick-box programme, if the House votes against it, the moratorium on fracking by its very definition will remain in place. Will he confirm that point for absolute clarity, and say that today is not the end of the matter?
Mr Rees-Mogg
My hon. Friend is right to say that today is not the end of the matter. If the House were not to accept the local consent mechanism, there would be no ability for local communities to give consent, and that would mean a veto were in place.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Is the neatest way of assessing local consent to take away the right of appeal to a planning inspector in these matters, so that the decision of the local planning authority is deemed the expression of local consent and is the final decision?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. That is absolutely the purpose of the consultation—to see what form local consent ought to take
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
It is absolutely true that the motion tabled by the Opposition does not reflect what was in our manifesto. It calls on the Government to introduce a ban on hydraulic fracking—followed by the three and a half pages of procedural stuff, which is what the motion is really about—whereas our manifesto said that we would introduce “a moratorium”.
In the Secretary of State’s letter to us, he says:
“With time, we will gain more understanding of how we can best develop this potentially very substantial UK asset.”
May I put it to him that, with time, we will gain more understanding of whether we should develop this potential asset? Would he accept that?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We are not pre-empting local consent in the letter that I sent out, so he is right.
I think that the time has come for me to return to my text—at least, for a moment or two. I do understand, as we have discussed, the concerns that people have about the safety of hydraulic fracturing. The excellent report by the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering from 2012 suggests that shale gas extraction can be managed safely and effectively in the United Kingdom owing to our high regulatory standards and many decades’ experience of extracting oil and gas both on and offshore. I return to the quotation from the right hon. Member for Doncaster North. As was reported in Wales Online on 25 September 2013, he said:
“Of course, there could be a role for it if it can meet safety concerns and the needs of local residents”.
So he should vote against his own motion, because he accepted that there should be a role for it.
The Government are absolutely determined to build our energy security. At a time when energy costs are a worry for many, I can say that we are starting from a tolerably good place. The United Kingdom is blessed with a healthy mix of different sources of energy, including a strong wind resource, one of the few significant oil and gas reserves in Europe, several gas import terminals and a well-managed electricity network. We have also made strong progress in building new renewable electricity generation such as offshore wind and plan to accelerate that further while also developing new nuclear capacity.
However, we cannot escape the fact that we are a nation with a structural reliance on gas. Even though we will be reducing our reliance on gas on the way to net zero—indeed, we may be using just a quarter of the gas that we use now by 2050—gas will remain the essential transition fuel.
Gas may have been out of sight and out of mind for some years. Perhaps we were not sufficiently prepared. However, we must not take our local gas supplies for granted. This year, the energy world changed. Putin’s war against Ukraine and the weaponising of gas supply to Europe has cut off a major source of supply to the European markets that we are connected to and ignited a global rush for gas resources. So while there is no immediate threat to UK supply, we cannot let our domestic production fade away and end up ever-more reliant on imports. No responsible Government would gamble with the gas supply. That is why, in the near term, our priority is keeping our domestic production online. The North Sea Transition Authority has launched the 33rd oil and gas licensing round, which is expected to deliver more than 100 new licences and put more UK gas on the grid. That is why we are discussing making the most of our shale gas resources.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
I always try to be helpful. The way out of the dilemma, if you like, is green hydrogen. I repeat what I said some days ago in this place: there are advanced plans in my constituency and the north of Scotland to generate 50 MW of energy, and that will shortly go up to 300 MW. Again, I invite His Majesty’s Government to come and see our plans. It would be helpful to all concerned.
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is indeed helpful. Green hydrogen is one of the most exciting technologies, and I am very enthusiastic about the opportunities there.
Sammy Wilson
Does the Secretary of State share my bemusement at some of the arguments? We know that we will need gas and that we will spend billions of pounds importing it from regimes that we cannot depend upon, and we know that we have gas in the north of England that could generate thousands of jobs and give us the security of our own supply. What is not to like about that?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who puts his thoughts with classic cogency.
Mr Rees-Mogg
Not at the moment.
The Government remain committed to net zero by 2050. It is how we reach that without putting our energy security at risk.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Secretary of State give way on that point?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Gentleman always wants to intervene on every point. He always says, “On this point” so it is hard to believe it really is on this point.
It makes no sense to become more reliant on shale gas produced overseas. Indeed, the Committee on Climate Change’s analysis notes that while current evidence on the emissions footprint of UK shale gas and liquefied gas imports is not yet definitive, available estimates indicate that emissions from those imports could be higher than those that would arise from commercial UK shale gas production by between 2 and 63 grams of carbon dioxide per kWh of gas consumed. Using our own resources is therefore more environmentally friendly and will help us to get to net zero.
Sir Robert Goodwill
My right hon. Friend is making some very valid points. It is about not just domestic gas supplies and electricity production, but the chemical industry, and most importantly, the fertiliser industry. One of our plants has already shut down and the others are switching from natural gas from UK sources to ammonia from the United States, whose cheap shale gas enables that industry to keep going. If we cannot produce our own fertiliser, food production in this country is under great threat.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who puts it very clearly. Using our own resources is environmentally friendly, but we have to make sure there is popular consent for it. I feel that the British public would not welcome the disruption and shortages that would be caused by Labour’s policy of taking gas out of the network by 2030.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. He is being so generous in giving way to people, particularly those on his own side. In my constituency, and in the constituencies of Ellesmere Port and Neston, and Chester, we had a public inquiry only recently, costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, and our communities rejected shale extraction. That is local consent. Why do we again have to jump through hoops and go through the same process?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Gentleman should be supporting what I am saying. He shows the value of local consent. The reality is that it will not always be given, and I am very well aware of that.
Let me move on to seismic limits. We have been clear that any future exploration or development of shale gas will need to meet rigorous safety and environmental standards. Drawing on lessons from around the world, we will make sure hydraulic fracturing for shale gas is done safely. Last month, the British Geological Survey published its report. This is a really important way of looking at what the seismic experience has been and comparing it with other forms of production, both of energy and other forms of manufacturing industry. The report makes it clear that forecasting the occurrence of felt seismic events remains a scientific challenge for the geoscience community. However, it also makes clear that to improve our understanding, we need more exploratory sites to gather the necessary data. We think this is a sensible thing to look at and that it would be unwise not to look at it, but it must have community support.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am almost coming to an end and lots of people want to speak. I have taken a vast number of interventions, including three from the Opposition, but I will give way to the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi).
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Will he seriously consider two aspects of fracking? First, it is unsafe in a country like the United Kingdom, which has a very small landmass and a large population. It might be safe somewhere with thousands and thousands of miles of barren land, but not in a country like ours. Secondly, does he really want to see applications for disgusting hydraulic fracturing across our beautiful country?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who is always a great contributor to this House. She is right to raise the issue of safety, which will be fundamental to any proposal for the extraction of shale gas.
The world has changed and our energy policy needs to recognise this. This Government will make the difficult but necessary decisions to secure the nation’s energy supply. Exploring our potentially substantial shale gas reserves is potentially an important part of that. But this must not be looked at in isolation, which is why we are exploring all avenues available to us, including solar, wind and nuclear, but we cannot ignore the importance of local gas production. However, let me reiterate the commitment—I reiterate this particularly to my hon. and right hon. Friends—that there is an absolute local consent lock. Any process to determine local consent must be run independently, and this House will vote on any scheme that we bring forward.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I do not support ending the moratorium on fracking, because I do not believe that new scientific evidence has yet emerged to justify doing so. It has been welcome to hear the Prime Minister and the Chancellor talking in recent days about the importance of our 2019 manifesto, and I agree both with the triple lock on pensions and the moratorium on fracking. I support the UK maximising the domestic supply of gas, as the Secretary of State has said, to support the transition to net zero. I support the production of new technologies for heating, including hydrogen, and I agree on the importance of our supplies for energy security, but we should do those things in ways that are proven to be safe.
I will not vote for the Opposition motion, and I urge all Conservative colleagues not to do so. It is a blatant attempt to seize control of the Order Paper, as the Opposition tried to do so many times in their efforts to thwart Brexit. I welcome the assurances of my the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) that there will be consultation with parishes, councils and other local bodies to ensure that there is a tough requirement for local consent, but there cannot really be such a thing unless local planning committees can simply say no. If they do, I cannot see how fracking is ever likely to impact on energy prices, certainly not in time to have an impact on heating costs this year or the next.
I therefore want to put on record my concerns and those of thousands of my constituents. Let us take action to help people with the cost of living, protect our environment and deliver on our 2019 manifesto.
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are very strong rumours that the Government Chief Whip has apparently resigned. I wonder if it is possible to get some clarity—[Interruption.] More than rumours—[Interruption.] Well, if Government Front Benchers want to say no. I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, on whether or not that can be confirmed, given that this is a matter of parliamentary discipline?