Subterranean Development Bill [HL]

Viscount Astor Excerpts

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, I am lucky enough to live in quite a smart street in London. In fact, it is so smart that even the noble Lord, Lord Myners, has a house in it. There the similarity between us ends because he has a large house and I have a small basement flat. I have been encouraged by my neighbours to speak on the Bill because we have had what one could describe as a subterranean problem.

One of the difficulties of living in what one might call a smart street relates to houses such as the one opposite me that has been bought by a foreign couple. I am told that they are Russian, but I have absolutely no proof of that. Apparently, when Russians buy houses in London, the one thing they really enjoy is digging down—I am not entirely sure why. Anyway, the builders appeared and they dug and they dug. In our street, the basement goes under not only the pavement but the street. I have no idea how far they dug, but the result was that both houses on either side virtually collapsed into the hole, causing enormous inconvenience. The neighbours were virtually powerless to do anything about it, and that is the issue that has been brought up by my noble friend Lord Selsdon and why this is important. The result on our street was that the pavement has been blocked and a number of skips have been sitting outside the house for more than two years. Workmen come and go but nothing seems to happen. I understand that this happens in quite a number of streets in London.

I am not against all forms of development. Indeed, my flat originally included what must have been the coal bunker that went under the street. It is a useful place for storage and I am delighted to have it. However, development must be regulated and it is an issue that affects not only London but outside, as my noble friend Lord Caithness said. While I am referring to London, I should say that I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, is to respond to the debate because her experience in local government, particularly in Kensington and Chelsea, will enormously useful.

My noble friend Lord Selsdon said that basement development was often for building garages. However, the Bill refers to additional accommodation. I do not know whether that covers a garage, but perhaps he can tell us when he responds. Equally, I am unclear how far one can dig down without needing planning permission, or how much further one can go. I understand that in a number of developments in London enormous spaces have been excavated, lifts have been installed and the developments go down three or four floors. That would involve digging rather more than the three or four metres suggested by my noble friend.

The real issue here is liability and the nuisance to neighbours. In London we have complicated arrangements. Some houses are owned by freeholders, some are leasehold and have landlords, and the particular issue in our street is that the liability seems to fall somewhere between the landlord, the leaseholder and various people in between. No one is clear who is responsible and accountable. If such developments are to continue, part of this process must involve an adequate and watertight insurance policy whereby neighbours can get some form of compensation should disaster strike. It is clear that the further down you dig, the larger the risk. These accidents often happen entirely unintentionally and it is not necessarily the fault of the builder, the architect or anyone else. You dig down and you do not know what you will find. There ought to be some way of making sure that when the holes are dug not everyone “does a runner”, leaving no one responsible for tidying up the mess. Some form of insurance or similar provision is vital, and I hope that my noble friend will address that issue.

I am making only a brief contribution, and I have been prompted to do so by my neighbours, so I have no interest to declare. However, this is an important issue and I am delighted that my noble friend has introduced the Bill.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Viscount Astor Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, for reasons that will now be self-evident to your Lordships, I do not agree that the clause—or any other clause, for that matter—should remain part of this Bill. This clause is particularly difficult, as several noble Lords have mentioned.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question that is germane to the way in which he has reordered proceedings. As my noble friend Lord Trefgarne said, a committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is looking at the reform of your Lordships' House. We wish that well. When one looks at the Bill that is now proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, one can only assume that he has had an indication that House of Lords reform will not happen in this Parliament and that this Bill is a way of achieving partial reform instead. That is enormously disappointing, because those of us who are in favour of House of Lords reform do not want any Government to use this Bill as an excuse for reform not to happen. Will the noble Lord address that issue when he winds up on this clause?

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[Lord Trefgarne]

If the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not going to move the amendment, I shall do so, as is I believe in accordance with procedure.

This amendment results, if I may say so, from the shenanigans of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, in changing around the order of consideration. The amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, declines to move, which I now move on his behalf, relates to the earlier part of the Bill. We are now not considering that amendment because we have, apparently, deferred consideration of the earlier part of the Bill. That points to the difficulties created by what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, decided to do late last night in tabling his amendment, reordering consideration of the clauses. I do not intend to pursue the matter further, but I suggest to your Lordships that the reordering that your Lordships agreed to earlier today was not perhaps as straightforward as many noble Lords may have imagined. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, I wonder if I could ask a question of those constitutional experts, and I am sure there are many sitting in your Lordships' House today. We heard earlier that Clauses 1 to 9 will be debated after Clauses 10 to 19. If that is the case, will any noble Lord who has amendments listed in the Marshalled List, as this amendment is, be able to move any amendments to those clauses when we have already passed through the list of amendments that is before us?

[Lord Goodhart]

I should point out very briefly that Amendment 122 is listed in the same group as Amendment 119, which was withdrawn. It would be wholly appropriate if Amendment 122 was withdrawn also.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Could we have an answer to the question posed by my noble friend Lord Astor? That is quite relevant to our future discussions. Can we come back to this amendment or to my consequential amendment—which we are about to come to—when we debate the original amendment from which these consequential ones flow?

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while my noble friend on the Front Bench receives some advice, perhaps I could help your Lordships. I have amendments to Clause 5 in Part 1 of the Bill. I am confused: should we come to Clause 5 after we have dealt with Amendments 10 to 19? Will I be able to move amendments to those clauses? If my noble friend has received some expert advice, I would be grateful if he could answer that question.

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[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, could my noble friend clarify this so that I am absolutely sure? As he rightly said, we are now debating Clauses 10 to 19 and following that we will debate Clauses 1 to 9. When that happens, will the House allow me to go back up the list of amendments and move, for example, Amendment 75 to Clause 5?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

Strictly speaking: yes, but that will of course depend on the amendment being put in the first place.

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Moved by

[Viscount Astor]

124: Clause 12, page 5, line 33, leave out “sufficient” and insert “reasonable”

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, this is a small amendment—so small that even my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not be able to accuse me of tabling a wrecking amendment. I say to him that the only time that I ever hear that phrase “wrecking amendment”, one could substitute it with, “This is an amendment that I do not agree with”. We sometimes hear that far too often.

Clause 12 is about:

“Permanent leave of absence by reason of failure to attend the House”.

I support the clause in principle. For noble Lords who are no longer able to attend your Lordships’ House, it seems to be sensible. However, my amendment concerns the clause which says that the House of Lords may,

“by Standing Order make provision for a member to be excluded”,

and then, by application, come back. There are Members of your Lordships’ House who perhaps get appointed to some important government post abroad, or for some reason are doing something so that they may or may not be able to attend. We certainly do not want to lose them.

In the Bill, the reason is deemed to be “sufficient merit” for subsection (1) not to apply. My amendment leaves out “sufficient” and inserts “reasonable”. Your Lordships’ House has always been governed by reason and reasonableness. There should not be arguments in the future as to whether something is or is not of “sufficient merit”. Who is to say, if a Member of your Lordships’ House is appointed an ambassador or a high commissioner abroad, as has happened in the past, whether that country being regarded as important is “sufficient”? If they are sent to be governor of Gibraltar, is that regarded as not “sufficient”? We should have a test that is based on a choice of words with which I would hope your Lordships feel more comfortable. That is why I inserted the word “reasonable”. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Astor has moved his reasonable amendment in a very reasonable manner. I, being a reasonable man, propose to accept it.

[Viscount Astor]

I am grateful to my noble friend for accepting my amendment.

Amendment 124 agreed.

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[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with that. We have to be very careful in setting a limit. I declare an interest, being over 75, as one could say, “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?” On the other hand, it is worth remembering that a respected demographer has recently told us that the person who is going to live to 150 has already been born. We have to take into account the fact that the pensionable age is now much higher than it was and that there is still a lot of life left in a lot of people who are aged 75. I agree that we need to reduce the numbers in the House, but this is not the way to go about it. There are other avenues to pursue to reduce the size of the House. I would be very wary of depriving it of the benefit of having some great experts. Under the proposal, when they had passed 75, they would not be invited to return in the subsequent Parliament.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, a previous proposed new clause was intended to get rid of your Lordships who cannot come to your Lordships' House; this amendment is intent on getting rid of some of your Lordships who do come to your Lordships' House and play a role in our proceedings.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said on an earlier amendment that elections to hereditary peerages surprise and confound those who do not understand the proceedings of your Lordships' House, which is certainly true. Another thing that confounds them is the fact that your Lordships’ Chamber is the second largest legislative Chamber in the world, second only to the Chinese National People’s Congress. It is quite frankly absurd for us to go along and defend the number that we have in this place compared with that in another place. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, mentioned that this House should do something to reform itself to give itself more respectability to the outside world and show that we understand the concerns. One of the concerns that are constantly expressed to me is the number of Members who sit in your Lordships' House. We need to do something about it.

Seventy-five might not be the right age. I am not entirely sure what the retirement age for High Court judges is, but a retirement age, be it 70 or 75, would seem to be one possible solution. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, declaring an interest, was against that. Other alternatives have been promoted in the past; for example, when your Lordships have sat here for 15 or 30 years, they should also be retired. I declare my interest in that that would affect me, so, quite naturally, I am thoroughly against the proposal. However, it is for this House to consider this matter very carefully. It is also for my noble friend on the Front Bench and the Leader of the Opposition to come before your Lordships and say what the main political parties in this country feel that they can do about the size of this Chamber. We know that there is going to be long-term reform, but we really ought to address the issue beforehand because it is important.

[Lord Grenfell]

When I declared an interest, it did not imply that it was in self-interest that I was making the argument that the House would be deprived of a lot of expertise; I was speaking of a lot of other people. It is worth recalling that, since the noble Viscount spoke of the Chinese People’s Republic, I do not know of any other upper Chamber where there happens to be such a limit. If one is going to go down a different route, perhaps the noble Viscount might consider it a good idea if we limited the number of new creations. That would be one way of getting the size of the House down.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, at this stage it may be helpful to mention that we are running out of groupings on the list that we have. Therefore, there is a new list in the Printed Paper Office, which takes us from Amendment 130 to the end and starts again at Amendment 1. That new document is available for Members.

[Viscount Astor]

My noble friend kindly gave me a copy of the groupings list. I should point out that my two Amendments 68 and 75 are not on the groupings list.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Would it not be for the convenience of the House if the staff distributed the new list, instead of us all marching out to get hold of it?

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness is very simple: I do not think that there is any magic in the one-year period. I am simply bringing this House into line with the other House. It has long been the practice in the elected House that anyone sentenced to a year’s imprisonment is automatically expelled. It seems to me that that should apply across Parliament as a whole. That is the only rationale for the measure. My noble friend has tabled two later starred amendments. I am minded to consider these very carefully because I think that he has a point there which we could carry forward to Report stage, if we get to it. However, we should resist Amendments 130 and 131 as they would make the provisions for this House different from those of the other place, and I do not see any case for that.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has mentioned my amendment, which is not grouped with this one. However, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I speak to it at the same time. I think that three noble Lords who attend this House have served time during Her Majesty’s pleasure and that two are either in prison or have been there recently. There are a few over the years who perhaps should have been there. There are quite a few I would have liked to have sent there but could not find a decent enough reason. Be that as it may, the point of my amendment is to make the situation rather similar to what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says applies to the House of Commons. I absolutely agree that if you are in prison you should not attend your Lordships' House. If you are in prison I do not see how you can attend your Lordships' House unless there is some day-release policy of which I am not aware.

[A noble Lord]

Or you are tagged.

[Viscount Astor]

You could be tagged, as my noble friend said. I understood that one of the important principles of the Liberal Democrats was rehabilitation—bringing people back into society after they have served their sentence, paid their price and done their time. Those of your Lordships who have suffered the indignity of prison will come out and find it quite difficult to get regular employment. After all, who is a more difficult person to employ than someone who has been in prison? It would be difficult to employ a Peer who had been in prison. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who is a humane person, would want such people to come back and contribute to society. The difference for the House of Commons is that you have to be re-elected, but if you go to prison you do not lose your title—you are stuck with it, I am afraid. Such noble Lords should be given a chance.

My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to Lord Kagan. I try to avoid the trap of politicians falling into the pointless anecdote, but perhaps I will mention one concerning Lord Kagan. When he reappeared in your Lordships' House, he came to the tea room and sat down. We all looked slightly embarrassed and wondered what to say. The late Lord Marsh turned to him and said, “I hope that your time in prison was not too bad”, to which Lord Kagan said, “I’ve only been in prison twice. The first was a concentration camp during the war and the second was here. I have to tell you that British prisons are much nicer places”. After that, we were all silent for quite a long time.

The purpose of my probing amendment is to ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, whether noble Lords who serve in this House, but due to some unfortunate circumstances have been a guest of Her Majesty, can contribute. Will the noble Lord consider that such noble Lords might, in some circumstances, be able to come back and rehabilitate themselves into what must be a welcoming place to come back to?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill, I know that the government Benches believe in giving people a second change. That is commendable in many ways and I certainly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. I also recognise that although we are one Parliament we are two Houses, each of which has rules and regulations. However, in this instance, it is absolutely right that we bring our own procedures into line with the House of Commons. While I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders, we must bear in mind that we are legislators and make laws. When one has broken a law to such an extent that one receives a prison sentence, it is right and proper that for a period of five years one should no longer have the privilege of making laws.

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[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Caithness withdraws his amendment it might be for the convenience of the House if I respond to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to save me moving my Amendment 131 and thank him for his humane response to my suggestion, for which I am grateful.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

Before the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, responds, nobody has really picked up the point about rehabilitation. The clause does not prevent rehabilitation because it would be open for somebody who had been expelled from the House to be considered for a life peerage in the event of them doing good work and rehabilitating themselves. What the clause rules out is those who do not engage in rehabilitation.

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[Lord Dubs]

This amendment contains a very simple proposition. I think we are the only Members of a second Chamber in any democratic country in the world who do not have the right to vote in general elections. It seems to me that there is a point of principle here. Many of us campaign in elections. I have window bills up in my house, and yet I am not allowed to vote for reasons that have disappeared in the mists of history and which make no logical sense today. It would not be compulsory. Those Members of this House who feel that they should not vote would have the right not to go to the polling station, but people in history have died for the right to vote. It has been a fundamental principle in many countries in the world. I feel very deeply when I am not allowed to vote on election day, even though I take an active part in campaigning for the candidate or candidates of my choice. The proposition is very simple. It will not change anything fundamental but will give us the right on polling day to exercise a democratic right. For those people who say that we are in the legislature and therefore we have other chances, the point of voting is to choose or influence the Government of this country. That is the right that we do not have as Members of this legislature, unless we are given the right to vote. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for one very simple reason: while canvassing at the previous election, I knocked at a door and said, “I very much hope that you’ll vote Conservative at the forthcoming election”. The answer was, “I might. Did you at the last election?”. I was forced to say no, so the lady said, “Well, neither shall I”.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I have often thought about this. It is an anomaly that dates back to when the Lords had the same sort of power as the other place. We can no longer vote on money Bills. This is my point. I seem to remember that they had a tea party in Boston on this very issue, which is that there should be no taxation without representation, or at least the right to vote. We are the only ones excluded, apart from various others. We are not allowed to vote on money Bills here, and nor are we allowed to vote for the very people who are putting them through and deciding upon them in another place. Logically, I think we should. We should either be given some powers over money Bills, which would be one answer or, alternatively, we should be given the right to vote.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I apologise in advance as I may be a little longer on this amendment than I have been on others. That is because the amendment refers to referendums. I believe that a change in the constitution, such as this Bill proposes, should be the subject of a referendum. We are getting more and more used to referendums as part of our political landscape. The Local Government Act 2000 provided for the holding of referendums to enable electors of individual local authorities to express their preferences for the type of executive arrangements within their council. The 2001 Regional Assemblies (Preparation) Bill also allowed for the holding of referendums.

The House is currently considering the Localism Bill, which has a huge number of Liberal Democrat amendments—I can see my noble friend Lord Steel nodding, whether in sadness or pleasure I am not certain. Under Schedule 6 to the two tomes of that Bill one sees a huge amount about “Council tax referendums: further amendments”. A referendum was also agreed in Section 6—headed, “Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum”—of the European Union Act 2011, which my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford took through. Earlier this year there was also, of course, the referendum on the alternative vote system, with the quite remarkable and wonderful result that it was not agreed. We are getting increasingly used to referendums.

This is a constitutional Bill of some importance. The most important bit is the one we have agreed which will break the 1999 agreement on the succession of hereditary Peers until a further reform of the House of Lords takes place. If this Bill is important enough to break that agreement then it is important enough to prompt a referendum.

Amendment 138 states:

“Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held”.

We then move on to the schedule and the consequential amendments. The schedule comes after Clause 19 and sets out the details of the referendum. I have to admit that I have copied this from the referendum amendment put forward for the Scotland Bill, which is also before your Lordships’ House. But I have proposed amendments to my amendment to take into account the fact that we would have a Joint Committee. We have not yet discussed the Joint Committee. The purpose of bringing it in—which I had hoped we would discuss earlier today—is that the Government proposing doing so in their draft reform Bill, which is in front of the Joint Committee of both Houses. We are caught up in a mess as a result of the rearrangement this morning because the amendments to my amendment concern something that we have not yet discussed. In view of what my noble friend Lord Shutt said, perhaps it would be wise for me not to move the amendments to my amendment until we have discussed the Joint Committee. However, I think that this is a cack-handed way of trying to discuss legislation. It is impossible to do it rationally.

I shall take noble Lords quickly through the schedule. There is, of course, the “Entitlement to vote”, which I hope does not cause any problems. We then deal with the conduct of the referendum and the “Referendum question and statement”. That is an important part of the schedule because the Order in Council,

“must specify the question to be included”.

We then come to the date of the referendum, and following that the “Referendum period”, which must be determined by the Order in Council. We then have “Combination of polls”, the encouragement of voting and the “Provision of information to voters”. It is important that one provides the correct information. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Steel probably knows more about referendums than I do, but my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth is probably the man to check that I have all of this right and to his satisfaction. The schedule goes on to deal with “Referendum material” and “Funding and accounts”. It deals with legal challenges to the referendum because they could well take place, followed by the “Supplementary” and “Interpretation” provisions. That in brief is the schedule before us. The principle of this is that there should be a referendum when it comes to constitutional reform. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while I sympathise with my noble friend, I have to say that if I thought that the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was as groundbreaking as my noble friend Lord Caithness points out, perhaps we could consider a referendum. But I have to say to my noble friend that I do not think that that is the case, and I really do not think that it justifies a referendum.

The more interesting issue here is that we do not know whether the committee looking into reform of the House of Lords is going to be able to keep to its timetable, or indeed whether the Government will produce a Bill for the reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament. It may be that they will wait until the next Parliament under whatever Government they are—I assume it will be a Conservative Government—and it is quite likely, if that is the case, that both major parties and indeed the Lib Dems will set out in their manifestos that they favour a wholly or largely elected second Chamber. If all three parties have that in their manifestos, there really is no chance for the country to have a view on it, because there will be no basis on which to have an alternative view on whether this House should be elected or appointed. It is not as if one can choose to say of one party, “I’ll vote for that because they put it forward”. In that case a referendum might be very worthwhile in deciding whether this nation really wants an elected second Chamber, with all the effect that that will have on another place and the way we manage the constitution of this country.

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Moved by

[Viscount Astor]

140: Clause 18, page 6, line 28, leave out subsection (1)

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, when I looked just now at the amendment that I had put down, I thought to myself, “Why on earth did I put it down?” Luckily, some inspiration came to me and I remembered.

The amendment would remove Clause 18(1). I put it down because I was unclear as to why Parts 1 and 3 should not come into force for three months. On Part 1, I realise that it would take some time to set up the appointments commission, which I presume is the reason. Therefore, I perhaps should not have included Part 1 in the amendment and I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Steel. In any event, he does not wish to proceed with Part 1.

However, it is relevant to ask my noble friend about Part 3. I was unclear on why Part 3, on permanent leave of absence and failure to attend the House, should not come into force at the same time as the rest of the Act. It seemed to me that there was no reason to delay Part 3 being enacted when the Bill is passed. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I think—though I bow to the expertise of my noble friend Lord Norton sitting next to me—that the reason for the provision is to allow the Government to do precisely what the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, recommended. In other words, they have three months in which to come forward with a statutory instrument. I would urge us to keep that in, because I am keen to keep up the pressure on the Government to do exactly that.

[Viscount Astor]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but there is presumably no reason why Part 3 cannot be enacted, because the enactment is then followed up by a Standing Order. Therefore, there is no reason why it cannot be enacted immediately, and the Standing Order can follow whenever the Government wish. I do not see that there is any advantage in having the period of three months.

[Lord Cormack]

It would be enacted. There are very many Bills that we enact, and there are provisions within them for certain of the measures which they contain to come into force in three months—it is 12 months in some cases. There is nothing constitutionally inaccurate or peculiar in that; it is perfectly normal.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I do not wish to be offensive to my noble friend Lord Astor, but the amendment would be incompetent, because if you left subsection (2) on its own, it would not make any sense.

[Viscount Astor]

I did realise that, and I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting my amendment exactly right, but my purpose was to ask why Part 3 did not come into force straightaway. My noble friend has given me somewhat of an answer which clarifies the matter.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I remind my noble friend Lord Astor that it is up to the person who introduces the Bill to get the amendments correct. We are not legal draftsmen as mere Back-Benchers. With a government Bill, I often had to accept amendments that were technically incorrect or had subsequent consequential amendments. It was the will of the House that the principle was agreed to and then it was sorted out later. My noble friend Lord Astor should not be penalised for making that little mistake.

[Viscount Astor]

Well, I am grateful for support wherever I can get it. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Steel for his explanation, which I think I understand. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 140 withdrawn.

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[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords, it is a matter of opinion as to whether we have done good work today. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, thinks that we have done good work because we have done what he wanted us to do. However, for those of us who were thoroughly opposed to Parts 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill, we have done a day’s really bad work and it might be quite nice to start working on an appointments commission, which we badly need. If we worked on that, we would be doing good work.

[Viscount Astor]

Perhaps I could ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question. He has an amendment coming up, Amendment 163, which changes the Title of the Bill. It removes the provision,

“for the appointment of a Commission to make recommendations to the Crown for the creation of life peerages”.

Surely if that amendment is moved and carried by your Lordships' House, that is the moment when we should decide on whether to proceed with any of the following clauses.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but while that is an outcome devoutly to be wished, unfortunately the rules of the House do not permit it. The Companion says that the determination of the Long Title of the Bill has to come after all other amendments have been considered. That is why we are stuck with this position that unless noble Lords agree to proceed to move, on the clause stand part motions, to remove Clauses 1 to 9 then we are bound to go on and we will not get to the Long Title.

[Viscount Astor]

I quite understand my noble friend but I would just point out to him that in the Marshalled List, which is prepared by the Clerks, Amendment 163 is there. It is then followed by the amendment of Clause 19 and it then goes on to Amendments 1, 2 and 3. Is the noble Lord saying that we will have to postpone dealing with Amendment 163 until the end of the session today?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

It may be helpful if I tell noble Lords that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place and that it should come at the very end.

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[Viscount Astor]

I am very grateful. I now understand the point that my noble friend was making and I am grateful to him.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have had a good day today are subjective, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, indicated. I have to say that we wonder every day whether we have had a good day in this Chamber. It really rather depends which side of the Chamber one is sitting on. Today, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that we have had a good day. The housekeeping matters that we have discussed and agreed upon are extremely important for the working of this House—important for our internal workings, but also in reputational terms for this House. I hope that we can expedite proceedings today to ensure that the next time we consider this Bill, it will be on Report so that we can then take it forward and ensure that it is enacted at the earliest opportunity.