High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill (Third sitting)

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider schedule 27.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

Good morning, Mr Hanson. Clause 37 introduces schedule 27, which contains provisions to disapply various controls imposed by local Acts relating to London, Oxfordshire, Staffordshire and the west midlands. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008, with regard to the enactments having effect in London. I will briefly list the Acts that the clause will include: the London Squares Preservation Act 1931; the London Overground Wires &c. Act 1933; the London Building Acts (Amendment) Act 1939; the West Midlands County Council Act 1980; the Staffordshire Act 1983; the Oxfordshire Act 1985; and the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1986.

Why have we disapplied those Acts, and what does that mean in practice? Those local Acts provide a range of geographically specific restrictions that are not appropriate in the case of a major railway project such as phase 1 of High Speed 2. The restrictions include provisions such as the control of dust, and lighting, which would impede or delay the construction of phase 1 and which are rendered unnecessary by the environmental minimum requirements.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 37 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 27 agreed to.

Clause 38

Objectives of Office of Rail and Road

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 38 relates to the duties of the Office of Rail and Road, as set out in section 4(1) of the Railways Act 1993, and ensures that the requirement for the ORR to facilitate the construction of phase 1 of HS2 is explicitly set out as one of its objectives. The ORR must consult the Secretary of State about how it should carry out that objective. That will ensure that HS2 is considered by the ORR in exactly the same way as any other rail project, and that the ORR balances the needs of HS2 with those of the wider network. Similar provisions were, unsurprisingly, included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 38 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 39

Disapplication of licensing requirement in pre-operational phase

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 39 has the effect of removing the need for an operating licence under section 6(1) of the Railways Act 1993 for the HS2 infrastructure or train operator when the line is being tested prior to opening in 2026. The exemption means that the testing of phase 1 of HS2 will have the benefit of the defence against nuisance provided by the 1993 Act. During that period, the railway will not have commercial services and therefore there would be no cost, income, services or passenger elements to regulate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 40

Disapplication of statutory closure provisions

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 40, page 15, line 7, after

“discontinuance which the Secretary of State,”

insert “reasonably”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to reach a ‘reasonable’ decision on closures, which could be challenged under this act if not reached reasonably.

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We considered extending our amendment to cover the other elements of subsection (2), as much the same considerations apply to the implied potential closure of passenger railway services in sections 22 to 25 of the Railways Act 2005 and to the discontinuance of the operation of passenger networks under sections 26 to 28 of the Act. That said, our amendment is restricted to the discontinuance of the use of or operations of stations, and I trust that the Minister is prepared to accept it.

[Mr Goodwill]

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman mentioned the Clapham omnibus. I had the great pleasure last week of visiting the Wrightbus factory in Northern Ireland, which builds the Boris buses that ply their trade so successfully around this city, although I must add that other double-decker manufacturers are available, including, dare I say, one based in my constituency.

May I allay some of the hon. Gentleman’s fears about the reasonableness of what we intend and the proportionality of what we are doing? It is reasonable for him to raise these issues, but I hope that I can allay his fears. Clause 40, to which the amendments apply, deals with the disapplication of statutory closure provisions and provides that the Secretary of State may, before phase 1 of HS2 is ready for commercial use, disapply the closure provisions of the Railways Act 2005 in the case of closures that are necessary or expedient due to the construction or operation of phase 1 of HS2.

London TravelWatch, the passenger representative body for the capital, asked for an explanation of the power and its expected use. We have already responded, stating that there are no station closures planned as part of the construction and operation of phase 1of HS2, and that the only line that would close is the eastern end of the Northolt and Acton line, known as the Wycombe Single, between Old Oak Common and Park Royal, which currently carries one weekday passenger service from London to West Ruislip.

The disapplied closure provisions set out what must be done in terms of notice, consultation and provision of information in the event of a proposal to close existing services, stations or parts of the rail network. There are services that may run with a reduced frequency as they are replaced by alternative services in phase 1 of HS2. The power in the clause does not apply to such services, as the Secretary of State may not exercise the power after he has notified Parliament that phase 1 of HS2 is ready for commercial use. Once it is commercially open, the Railways Act 2005 procedures come back into force.

The clause ensures that phase 1 of HS2 can be built efficiently, as the decision to construct phase 1 of HS2 will have been approved by Parliament. We believe it is reasonable to disapply the closure procedures during construction. The proposed closure of the “Wycombe single” and its impact were set out in the environmental statement, on which the public were consulted. The issue of the Wycombe single was also raised in petitions, meaning that Parliament had full opportunity to consider it. All of that means that going through the full closure procedures would be an unnecessary duplication. Phase 1 of HS2, of course, is about adding capacity to the rail network, not reducing it. The power can be used only for closures that are necessary for the construction and operation of phase 1 of HS2, and currently we have identified only one that is necessary.

Turning specifically to the amendment, as I said, clause 40 is essential if phase 1 of HS2 is to be delivered efficiently and effectively. However, I understand the importance of getting the clause right to ensure balance. As I mentioned, London TravelWatch asked for an explanation of the power, and I responded separately. It is important to remember that clause 40 as proposed would apply only during construction. When the line is operational, it will not apply.

As I said previously, we have sought not to legislate unless necessary. I do not believe that it is necessary to insert the word “reasonable” into the clause, as in amendment 17; it is inherent. Inserting “reasonable” in that context would cast doubt on other provisions of the Bill. Similarly, I do not feel it necessary to remove the word “expedient” as amendment 18 would do. We would still behave reasonably. As to amendment 20, the Secretary of State would need to be satisfied that any closure was appropriate, having worked closely with the relevant railway operators, so I do not think any such closures require a parliamentary process.

Amendments 18 and 19 would, in relation to the line and the stations respectively, limit the power to the closure of the eastern line end of the Northolt and Acton line—known as the “Wycombe single”—which currently carries one weekday passenger service, and remove the ability to close stations. I repeat that at present there are no station closures for the delivery of HS2, and the Wycombe single is the only line that we expect will need to close. That was outlined in the environmental statement. However, I must stress that the design of HS2 is at an outline stage, so we cannot guarantee that other closures will not be necessary. Therefore a level of flexibility is involved. Currently there are no stations that have been earmarked, or are being contemplated, for closure. The provision is purely about allowing some flexibility, should unexpected situations occur.

I hope that what I have said reassures the hon. Member for Middlesbrough that the amendments are not needed, and that in some cases they could not be passed if we are to deliver HS2, and that he will withdraw the amendment.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

To take the Minister back to what he said about flexibility, which I understand, if it were decided that some stations needed to go, what degree or level of consultation would take place?

[Mr Goodwill]

As I say, we are not proposing that. There would certainly be wide consultation. In this theoretical case that we cannot actually identify, there would need to be provision for the passengers who used that station. Indeed, if there were plans to build a new station, of course that would mean closing the old station that it was to replace.

As I have said, the provision is purely another example of braces and belt, in case we should find ourselves in the unexpected situation of needing to close additional lines or a station. The clause would allow us to do that, but I have not heard even a hint that we might need to close stations. Indeed, HS2 is about increasing capacity on the line, and people’s opportunity to travel. That is why it has been welcomed across the political divides in the House.

I hope that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough will withdraw his amendment and accept at face value my assurances—“reasonably” is my middle name, for goodness’ sake—that we certainly do not have a hidden agenda that the clause is intended to facilitate.

[Andy McDonald]

I would not suggest any hidden agenda at all. If “reasonable” is the Minister’s middle name, why not put something in the Bill? To suggest that doubt might be cast on the ability to construct HS2 is something of a stretch. Surely we should all behave reasonably. To reject the amendment is to leave the way open to do otherwise.

I am not particularly persuaded by the argument about a need for flexibility, when no closures have been identified. The Bill has been pored over in minute detail. The plans are extraordinarily well known. A suggestion by the Minister that as construction develops something might be unearthed that would demand the closure of a station would send shockwaves around the communities along the lines. He has mentioned the very line that has been identified—the Wycombe single; and that is good. What I am driving at is that we should be specific about the closure plans.

I hear what the Minister says, and that he has requested me to withdraw the amendment, but in the first instance the insertion of the word “reasonable” is eminently reasonable. I see no reason to withdraw that.

[Mr Goodwill]

The point I was trying to make was that the specific use of the word “reasonable” in the clause might throw doubt on the reasonableness of other areas where we have not used that word. I stress that this Government will behave reasonably at all times; that reasonableness contributed to a large degree to the electoral success we had last year. We are always reasonable in all things.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for that, but putting this requirement in the Bill would leave the matter in absolutely and utterly no doubt, and it would put in that check and balance to ensure that is possible to have an objective examination of the decision to close. Without it, the Secretary of State is beyond criticism and incapable of being held to account. It is a basic principle of English law that Ministers in these circumstances should behave with all reasonableness.

That is why I indicate now, Mr Hanson, that I wish to see amendment 17 put to a vote; if you wish me to continue with my approach towards the rest of the amendments, I will. It has been very clearly established that the current intentions only extend to the Wycombe single line and I am content with what the Minister has had to say about that. So it is not my intention to trouble the Committee any further with amendment 18.

I turn to amendment 20. A simple requirement to make a written statement to Parliament following the making of such a decision is hardly an onerous provision and I would expect the Government to make such a statement in any event, but putting the requirement in the Bill would leave absolutely no doubt about it.

[Mr Goodwill]

There is no shortage of parliamentary procedures that could be used, including urgent questions, Opposition day debates and all the other tools in the toolkit of an MP to raise issues in Parliament. So, although I understand the points that the hon. Gentleman is making, I do not think that we need to include this measure in the Bill.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for that. I have only been here a very short time—three years or just a bit more—but there have been so many occasions when I have gone back to my constituency on a Friday night and seen an announcement made that has snuck out when we are not here, or that has been made during a recess. I am very much aware of the parliamentary procedures available to us all to seek an urgent question, or hopefully the Minister would come along and make a statement, but this amendment would leave it in absolutely no doubt that there was a formal, statutory requirement for a Minister to come along and make a statement when any of these plans were being contemplated, and that would put it in the Bill and give it a degree of certainty that otherwise would not exist.

For those reasons, I would like us to have a vote on this particular amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider schedule 28.

[Mr Goodwill]

I shall be brief. Clause 41 relates to other railway legislation, etc. It introduces schedule 28, which sets out the application of general legislation relating to railways to phase 1 of HS2. That includes certain disapplications and incorporations.

For example, paragraph 1 of schedule 28 disapplies the Highway (Railway Crossings) Act 1839, which requires the railroad provider to maintain gates at each end of the crossing and employ a person to open and close said gates. That, of course, is not required today.

Conversely, schedule 28 incorporates provision that makes it an offence for a person to obstruct the lawful construction of the authorised works. All of those are to ensure that the HS2 railway can be constructed, maintained and operated effectively.

In some instances, modifications have been made to reflect modern times, such as increasing the maximum fine for trespass under the Railway Regulation Act 1840 in its application to phase 1 of HS2. I could go on to talk about the restriction of diesel locomotives at the North Pole depot but I will spare the Committee that particular interesting detail.

[Andy McDonald]

I was looking forward to hearing about the diesels at the North Pole depot; I feel cheated. I was a little surprised when I first saw that the schedule referred to the application of other railway legislation, etc., but it would be churlish of me to say that shows a lack of precision, because it is perfectly clearly set out what the “etc.” is all about.

I would like the Minister to consider this point. He has highlighted that with HS2 there will not be roadworks and barriers; it is a continuous route. Will he comment on the issue of safety and trespass around the HS2 line? It is markedly different from a conventional line. What specific measures have been introduced? It is clearly an offence to trespass upon a railway. Are there any additional provisions specific to HS2 that we should consider?

[Mr Goodwill]

I am happy to comment on that. Safety on the railway is of vital importance, not just for those who travel on the railway but for those in proximity to the lines. One real issue that affects our rail network in this country is suicide. Network Rail, on the existing classic network, and I am sure HS2 will be aware of what we can do to try to detract from that—for example, to ensure that crossings over the railway are not easy to use in that regard.

The line will be secure, unlike some of the traditional network. There will be no level crossings or points crossings on the railway. We will be using flyovers, so the trains will not need to slow down to use points. However, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we need to ensure that safety is paramount. One has only to look at HS1 or, indeed, infrastructure around the world to see that high-speed railways are very safe railways and it is very difficult for members of the public to gain access. Modern railway regulations specify safety standards in great detail, and we will of course comply with all those regulations.

I hope that allays the hon. Gentleman’s fears, but he is absolutely right: safety is paramount. Having seen some of the issues on our rail network in the past, I am delighted that there will be state-of-the-art rolling stock and state-of-the-art signalling systems. The training that will be available to staff will be second to none and, indeed, the British Transport police will be receiving training in operations on this part of the line, as they already do in delivering such a fantastic service.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 41 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 28 agreed to.

Clause 42

Co-operation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider schedule 29.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause refers to co-operation. That is a wonderful word and, given the political consensus across Parliament, it would be a very good word to describe how we are making progress on this great project, which will benefit the whole country.

Clause 42 enables the nominated undertaker to require other railway facility operators to enter into agreements to support the expeditious delivery of phase 1 of HS2. Similarly, the controller of a railway asset may require the nominated undertaker to enter into such an agreement. In default of agreement between the parties, the terms of such an agreement will be determined by arbitration under schedule 29, which is introduced by subsection (4). The arbitration process is outlined in schedule 29 and is in addition to the arbitration process outlined in clause 63. However, this does not apply to any matters of agreement that are within the remit of the ORR. This arbitration process is to determine agreements that govern relationships between railway operators where particular policy issues apply.

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister said earlier that reasonableness was his middle name—well, co-operation is mine.

[The Chair]

Following that enlightening discussion, we move to the Question that clause 42 stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 42 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 29 agreed to.

Clause 43

Transfer of functions relating to works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause provides for the transfer of functions relating to works. It provides that if the Secretary of State acquires any land from a railway operator on which there are works that are already authorised, the Secretary of State may, by order, transfer the responsibility for those works to the Secretary of State. Conversely, if a railway operator acquires land from the Secretary of State on which there are any works authorised by this Bill, the Secretary of State may, with the railway operator’s consent, transfer any responsibility relating to those works to the railway operator.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 43 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 44

Nominated undertaker

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause applies to the nominated undertaker, which is not a funeral director, as I think we mentioned on Tuesday. It allows the Secretary of State, by way of an order, to appoint a nominated undertaker or undertakers to build phase 1 of HS2. The nominated undertaker would therefore be able to draw on Bill powers on behalf of the Secretary of State to deliver the railway. Delegating authority to a delivery body is common practice on major rail infrastructure schemes. Subject to readiness, we would expect HS2 Ltd to take on that role. However, we have yet to fully determine who the nominated undertaker will be. For example, it may be prudent for different bodies to build different elements of the railway.

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[Mr Goodwill]

If I may reassure the hon. Gentleman, as I said in my opening remarks, the clause is about undertakers to build phase 1 of HS2. It is not about the operation of the railway. Later, we may have an opportunity to discuss the way the operation of the railway may be delivered, but it is early days to rush those fences. In this case, we expect spades in the ground next year and, therefore, the nominated undertakers will be those charged with the delivery of the railway. There will be a number of works, not only the basic construction. A lot of the environmental works could well be given to other undertakers in some cases. At the moment, HS2 Ltd will be the main delivery body and that should be made clear.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 44 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 45

Transfer Schemes

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 45, page 17, line 33, at end insert—

“(2) If property or rights are transferred from HS2 Limited or a wholly-owned subsidiary of HS2 Ltd to any body that is not a public body as defined by section 25(1) of the 1993 Railways Act, a fee must be received which reflects a fair market evaluation of that property or right.”

Clause 45 allows the Secretary of State to transfer HS2 Ltd’s property and rights to any other body. This amendment would prevent the Secretary of State from transferring assets to a private body without receiving a fair price.

Clause 45 is critically important and will undoubtedly be a matter of some contention between the Front Benchers. I want to explore it in some detail. Although we will have an interesting discussion about how railways ought to be owned and operated when we discuss new clause 21, the amendment is unashamedly hewn from the same wood. There is a huge amount of consensus on the need for the construction of HS2, but the issue of whether the railway service—its infrastructure and its operation—should be owned by the British public and run as a publicly owned operation represents clear blue, or red, water between the Government and Her Majesty’s Opposition. We will return to that fundamental issue in due course.

The amendment speaks to the concerns that property or rights that are transferred from HS2 Ltd, or a wholly owned subsidiary of HS2 Ltd, to any body that is not a public body might not be in return for a fee that is a fair market evaluation. The Railways Act 1993 sets out which those bodies are in clear detail: a Minister of the Crown, a Department or any “other emanation” of the state, a local authority, the Greater London Authority, Transport for London, any metropolitan county passenger transport authority, any body whose members are appointed by a Minister of the Crown, and so on.

I will make myself abundantly clear: we in the Opposition do not want any of the considerable publicly funded investment finding its way into private hands. We are vehemently opposed to any break-up and/or privatisation of our railway infrastructure and we fear that the power in the clause may be used, in part, in pursuit of that objective. The public will have paid a handsome price for HS2 and they should not have it or any part of it taken from under them at a knock-down price.

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[Mr Goodwill]

I get the impression that we are now into territory that is not as consensual as it was, although we would all agree that it is important to get the best possible value when assets owned by the state are transferred to a buyer or via a share issue to the general public. It is absolutely right that if someone is selling off what some people might call the family silver they get a fair value, although that perhaps would not apply to the family gold under the Brown Government—in hindsight, that was not such a good deal.

I will not speculate too much on some of the issues that the hon. Gentleman raised, such as Royal Mail, but the process of privatisation has been successful. British Airways is now an international group. Engineering companies such as Rolls-Royce, and others such as BT and British Gas were all state owned, and all have gone on to become international companies unfettered by the restrictions that the state can often impose.

Clause 45 allows the Secretary of State to make schemes to transfer property rights and/or liabilities from HS2 to another person, which includes the Secretary of State. This power also allows the transfer to take place mid-delivery should it be required. Subsection (3) introduces schedule 30, which makes further provision about transfer schemes made under the clause.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am listening to the Minister very carefully and I agree that there are many good examples of British industries that have performed very well in the private sector from the ‘70s and ‘80s. But he would surely separate that out conceptually from ensuring that a fair price for the taxpayer is raised at the initial point of issue of those shares in the private sector? If he reflects, he will admit that in various high-profile cases, particularly under this Government and the coalition Government, there was a feeling out there that state assets were undersold to increase the gain as quickly as possible for the people buying them. Those two issues are surely separate.

[Mr Goodwill]

Well, yes, often hindsight is a marvellous thing and markets move in different directions. It has always been the Government’s intention to ensure that we get best value, but also to ensure that share issues are taken up. There is a difficult balance between pitching a price at such a level that the shares are taken up and pitching a price that achieves best value. However, the track record of this Government shows that we have been stalwart custodians of the public purse. We have not wasted money. We have borne down on the deficit. We have got sound money back again in our economy and there is confidence around the world that we are sound managers of public finances. Indeed, in the Budget later this month, we will see more examples of that being delivered to the House.

[Andy McDonald]

Does the Minister not have just a glimmer of concern about my example of how the sale of Royal Mail was conducted? Will he not put some distance between him and his Government and that arrangement whereby a Government adviser, Lazard, was right at the heart of the sale of publicly owned assets and yet at the same time was next door deriving significant profits of immense proportions from that sale? Does he not agree that there is something wrong with such an arrangement? We had scrutiny after that event and we should have such scrutiny before the event with HS2.

[Mr Goodwill]

If I may, I will turn to an example more closely allied to the matter before us today, which is the case of HS1. We sold a 30-year concession on HS1 to operate and maintain the infrastructure for £2.1 billion. The Ontario Teachers’ pension fund took that concession for a 30-year licence. After the 30 years, the HS1 line returns to the Government, and we will have the opportunity to sell another concession; to keep it, possibly within Network Rail; or to give it to another operator such as, as I have said, Network Rail. The sale of the HS1 concession involved a rigorous bidding process to ensure best value. No decisions have been taken on the commercial model for HS2. It should also be noted that if any transfer of assets, rights or liabilities occur, the Secretary of State can impose conditions such as restrictions on the sale of assets, which will protect assets if that is thought appropriate.

We would always seek to get best value in the sale of the concession, and the value of the concession will take into account the value of the assets being transferred as well as the liabilities and revenue, and this would therefore be priced in. I hope that that clarifies the position so that the hon. Gentleman understands the purpose of the amendment, but, given the political differences between us on this issue, I suspect that I will not be able to satisfy him and he will press his amendment to a Division.

[Mr Anderson]

The Minister talked about the issue of privatisation and how successful the businesses have been, but consumers might have a slightly different view about the prices charged by companies such as British Gas and British Airways and whether they are doing a great job. They might also have a different view on the fantastic performance of the Government. Figures released today say that the national debt is now £1,580 billion, having increased by 50% on his and his Government’s watch.

We can have the political debate later on about ownership, and I am sure we will, but what I am trying to get my head around is what the problem is with the amendment. What the Minister is saying is what we are asking for: automatic best value and so on. Is that not exactly what the words on the amendment paper say? I cannot get my head around why on earth we cannot just say that if and when it happens, the Government will get best value for the customer, the taxpayer.

If we leave the clause as it is, it more or less says that the Secretary of State has the power to give away parts of the system, or all of the system, to anybody, without any price whatever. I know—I hope—that that is not the intention, but the clause at the minute says exactly that, and the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough would prevent that from happening.

[Mr Goodwill]

I will respond briefly to that point. This Government always seek to get best value for the taxpayer. There is an important debate to be had, although maybe not at this stage, about how the railway will be delivered—whether we operate a traditional franchising process, run the line directly for a while to demonstrate its ability to raise revenue for a future operator or let a concession, as we have done with HS1, to allow an investor to come in and benefit from the income from the operator. There are a number of issues that we should consider to ensure that we get best value, but those decisions need to be made at the start of the next decade, so I think we would be rushing our fences to do it now.

Once again, I underline that this Government will always seek to get best value for the taxpayer. The previous coalition Government’s record of doing so was a major contributor to the results we achieved last year in May, when the British people had confidence that a Conservative Government could be a sound custodian of the public finances and come to grips with the economic mess that we inherited in 2010. That is a debate for another day, but I assure the Committee that we will always seek to get best value, and the clause—without the amendment, which is superfluous—will do precisely that.

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister is right to identify this as an area of stark political differences between us, but we have been able to discuss it civilly, recognising that we have distinct positions. I will try not to go into the whole business of what happened at the last election, but we lost 900 votes across 12 seats; I do not think the Conservatives should be crowing too much about that. Be that as it may—

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The Minister and I have identified where we disagree but, between us, we have come to an agreement that this should happen. For that reason, I cannot understand his reluctance to accept the amendment. It is basically saying that this is the best practice that this Government adopt and will continue to adopt. It is an amendment that he should embrace and support so that we can continue with our wonderful consensus in sending this fantastic project on its way. Unless he is indicating that he is now converted—

[Mr Goodwill]

indicated dissent.

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister is shaking his head, which disappoints me gravely. I suggest, Mr Hanson, that we put the matter to a vote so that the Committee can make a decision. I am sure that hon. Members on the Government Benches have listened carefully and will express themselves in an independent fashion.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider schedule 31 stand part.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 46 deals with extension of planning permission for statutory undertakers and introduces schedule 31, which provides for the extension of planning permission to the statutory undertakers.

Paragraph 1 of schedule 31 disapplies certain limitations of permitted development rights for statutory undertakers, therefore allowing them to use the planning permission granted by the General Permitted Development Order 2015 for works that form part of or are in connection with HS2.

Paragraph 2 of the schedule sets out the condition that the works that are carried out are in accordance with any undertaking given by the Secretary of State to the Select Committee of either House during the Bill process, which includes the commitments given through the controls of the environmental minimum requirements.

I should explain that the certain works carried out by the statutory undertakers referred to are generally the required utility diversions.

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister referred to schedule 31(2), which sets out the condition that the works be carried out in accordance with any undertaking given by the Secretary of State to a Select Committee of either House. We have been through that process. Can the Minister provide some information about the undertakings that have been given to help Opposition Members understand what the provision encompasses? I am not aware of the nature of any such undertakings.

[Mr Goodwill]

A number of additional provisions have come before the House, many of which are diversions of utilities and are the result of petitions or concerns raised with HS2 Ltd as part of that process. In every case I can think of, the diversions are intended to facilitate and help the landowners or the owners of the infrastructure. We can probably provide several dozen examples of where that has been done in response to the sensible concerns that people have raised.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 31 agreed to.

Clause 47

Protective provisions

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider schedule 32 stand part.

[Mr Goodwill]

Following on from what we just discussed, if the hon. Member for Middlesbrough is interested in utilities and diversions, the undertakings are published on the Parliament website. If he has a sleepless night, he can always find a way to fight the insomnia.

[The Chair]

Order. He can do so, but we have moved on from that subject. We are now on clause 47. I suggest that the Minister writes to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough with details about that.

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[Mr Goodwill]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. You are absolutely right to call me to order.

Clause 47 concerns protective provisions and introduces schedule 32, which contains provisions protecting the interests of statutory undertakers and other bodies that may be affected by other provisions of the Bill. These provisions are similar to those in the Crossrail Act 2008 and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act 1996. The protective provisions of the schedule cover highways and traffic; electricity, gas, water and sewerage undertakers; electronic communications code networks; the Canal and River Trust; and land drainage, flood defence, water resources and fisheries. I commend the clause and the associated schedule to the Committee.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for that helpful explanation. We are talking about nominated undertakers and statutory undertakers—there is a lot of undertaking going on. Does the Minister envisage that there will be better co-ordination between the nominated undertaker and the statutory undertaker? Members across the House will be besieged with complaints about the myriad works by a succession of statutory undertakers in their own territory. What I am saying in words of one syllable is that the works involving statutory undertakers will be better co-ordinated if they are done in one go. That is better than multiple moving activities and many holes being dug.

[Mr Goodwill]

Much of the work that will be carried out in the construction of this railway will be on the land we have acquired, and therefore will not affect those going about their everyday lives. However, from time to time work will need to be done on highways or other rights of way that could disrupt their lawful use. I know that, in those cases, HS2 Ltd is determined to minimise the disruption. Indeed, we are already working with local authorities to ensure we can deliver these changes sympathetically, as we are doing for lorry movements and the other potential disruptions to which this project will unfortunately give rise.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 47 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 32 agreed to.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Jackie Doyle-Price.)

High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Andy McDonald]

Good afternoon, Mr Hanson. I hope that everyone else had a wonderful lunch; I didn’t.

The amendment would require the Secretary of State to reach another reasonable decision—the man on that omnibus keeps coming back—so we are proposing to insert “reasonably”. Although reasonableness is the Minister’s middle name and everything that the Government do, we are told, is reasonable, there appears to be a curious reluctance to deploy the term in the Bill and to make the obligation reasonably clear and obvious. I implore the Minister, at least in this narrow context, to embrace the concept.

Without doubt, one of the primary benefits of investment in infrastructure projects such as High Speed 2 is the opportunity for transformative redevelopment in affected areas. HS2 has presented a number of opportunities that have been grasped. We also appreciate that projects on the scale of HS2 will be ongoing for a significant time. Not all opportunities for redevelopment of land can feasibly be identified in the early stages, so further opportunities might present themselves over the coming months and years.

In principle, therefore, we support a power for the Secretary of State to acquire land compulsorily for the purposes of redevelopment, but with certain caveats. The clause as drafted will grant the Secretary of State wide-ranging, blanket powers to acquire land, with little accountability or restriction. Our amendments seek to particularise and limit the powers granted and to ensure greater accountability if he or she chooses to exercise the powers. The amendment is self-explanatory. We have had a healthy discussion about reasonableness, but it is also worthy of note that the wording of subsection (1) simply states:

“If the Secretary of State considers that the construction or operation of Phase One of High Speed 2 gives rise to the opportunity for regeneration or development of any land, the Secretary of State may acquire the land compulsorily.”

We expect the construction phase to last some 10 years. Earlier, we had a discussion about the good sense of covering contingencies, although the Opposition have failed to convince the Government that such powers should not be totally and utterly open-ended. As drafted, the clear import and effect of the clause is not only on the construction phase, but on the operation of HS2—it states “or operation”.

The HS2 project has been planned for the long term. We salute our Victorian forebears for their engineering skill, invention and ingenuity. However, the network and the services on it have run for the best part of 200 years; it will soon be the 200th anniversary of the Stockton-Darlington line, the world’s first passenger train. The journey between Stockton and Darlington on Stephenson’s Rocket must have been something to behold. It would have been very dramatic with the man with the red flag walking out in front of the train as it made its way; it was not known what effect—

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I think the hon. Gentleman might find that it was Locomotion No. 1 on the first run.

[Andy McDonald]

I stand corrected. The Minister is entirely right. The Rocket gets a lot of acclaim; it used to occupy pride of place in Darlington railway station, but it is there no more—there is a mere representation on the wall. I bow to my friend’s greater knowledge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

The Rocket, as the hon. Gentleman will no doubt recall, was the successful engine in the Rainhill trials, beating the Sans Pareil, which came second.

[The Chair]

Order. I remind hon. Members that we are discussing the amendment but also that William Huskisson, a former Secretary of State, was killed by the Rocket on its first day out. I think that is a warning to Members of Parliament to stay away from this area and stick to the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald]

Indeed. The point is that the Victorian railway has been around for a very considerable time. We have benefited enormously from Victorian innovation and taken it forward into the next generation of high-speed rail travel. Once completed, phase 1 will surely be in operation for hundreds of years—we all agree that it will be operational for two centuries. That is a wonderful prospect.

However, under the current drafting a Secretary of State will be able to enjoy compulsory purchase powers over the land for the entire duration of phase 1. That is a hugely significant power and I trust that the Minister can see the merit in qualifying that wide-ranging power. The amendment will not inhibit in any way the development or operations of phase 1. It will simply introduce some degree of reasonable objectivity into the Bill, so that in years ahead—we could be talking 50, 75 or 100 years—landowners can be assured that their land and property, left intact until then, is not unfairly or unexpectedly drawn into the operation of compulsory acquisition under the Act.

Thus far, there has been no such qualification. I trust that the Minister will agree with the logic of our position and accept the amendment.

[Mr Goodwill]

As we have just heard, clause 48 refers to compulsory acquisition of land for regeneration or relocation. It enables the Secretary of State to promote a compulsory purchase order if he considers that the construction or operation of phase 1 of HS2 gives rise to an opportunity for regeneration or development of that land. The clause further enables the Secretary of State to promote a compulsory purchase order to acquire land to relocate all or part of an undertaking where, as a result of the exercise of powers under the Bill, the former site is no longer reasonably capable of being used for the undertaking. Subsection (4) provides that the normal process relating to compulsory orders is to apply.

The power is included in the Bill because Ministers wish to maximise the potential economic benefits from phase 1 of HS2 to ensure that local areas make the most of the opportunities that the railway will provide and to support relocation of businesses. It is considered that phase 1 of HS2 will give rise to significant opportunities to promote or facilitate regeneration development. However, assembling a coherent and developable site is an essential part of bringing forward such development and that would not be possible without the ability to have recourse to the powers of compulsory purchase.

As we say in information paper C11, we see this as a backstop power. It would normally be for local landowners and local authorities to come together to assemble land to bring forward regeneration. However, that may not be possible in some cases and regeneration opportunities could be lost. Ebbsfleet is a good example because development, although now under way, has been much delayed and such powers could have enabled more effective land assembly earlier.

Of course, all that does not mean that phase 1 of HS2 will be able to take land wherever it wants. All the measure does is enable the Secretary of State to promote a compulsory order when the construction or operation of phase 1 creates regeneration or development opportunities. Such an order would then need to go through the normal process, including a local inquiry, if there were objections.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

I think I get the gist of what the Minister is saying. When a regeneration project, perhaps in Manchester or on another part of the line, is connected to the benefits that HS2 will bring, does he expect the normal process of land accumulation and scheme formation to occur? Is this measure a reserved power should there be a legal problem in assembling the site? “Backstop power” was the phrase he used. Does he envisage that the normal process would apply for regeneration work to occur in a local area?

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman is right. The owners of land close to HS2 stations or areas where HS2 will have an economic benefit will be grasping such opportunities with both hands. The land will have achieved an uplift in value and the opportunities will be fantastic. Problems might include a particular landowner not wanting to co-operate or another acquisition problem. This is not just about land development, but about the relocation of businesses, and I can think of one or two such examples. We need to be sure that we can bring forward viable opportunities for businesses to be relocated, which will protect those particular jobs.

To promote a compulsory purchase order successfully, the Secretary of State would need to demonstrate three things. First, that a private purchase is not possible, so the land should be taken compulsorily. Secondly, that there is a reasonable prospect of the proposed development coming forward—in other words, that there is no obvious reason why planning permission would not be granted if has not been already. Thirdly, that there is a compelling public-interest need for the land. Taking an individual’s land interferes with their fundamental human rights, so it is only right that significant protections should be in place. The power does not change those protections at all. Although it extends beyond the construction period into operation, checks and balances will continue to be in place.

Although local authorities already have the power to make compulsory purchase orders, it does not always happen. The power is there to ensure that development does happen, and we would expect local authorities to take the opportunity to lead development in their areas. However, in certain circumstances local authorities might be unable to do so, either because regeneration opportunities straddle local authority boundaries or because a local authority does not have the specialist resource to undertake the compulsory purchase order process. In such circumstances, if development is not coming forward in a timeframe that maximises the opportunity, the Government will be able to use this power to accelerate the process, following consultation with the relevant local authority.

Of course, there are safeguards to protect landowners. Planning permission for any developments would need to be obtained in the usual way, and the compulsory purchase order would be made only if there was a reasonable prospect of obtaining planning permission and the compulsory acquisition could be justified as being in the public interest.

I turn to the amendments. The purpose of clause 48(1) is to ensure that the development and regeneration opportunities that HS2 presents are maximised in a timely manner. However, it is a backstop power. We expect local authorities or landowners to be able to capitalise on any opportunities. Indeed, that is already happening. For example, Birmingham City Council has already published its plans for the development of the Curzon Street area, and we support it on that. However, in the event that there are issues that impede development, such as effective land packaging, regeneration areas straddling different local authority boundaries and so on, we will have the ability to step in and to help the development progress. Any such developments that require land outside the Bill limits would require the promotion of a compulsory purchase order and, as I have explained, the rules are tightly drawn and must be adhered to.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful. I will touch on the Minister’s remarks about the description of the backstop power. I fully understand the way in which he is presenting that and it appears eminently sensible to me. He set out a good case for that approach.

My only concern is that the measure is unlimited in time. I have said to the Minister that the HS2 operation will run for a considerable time, well in excess of 100 years, and my concern is about the principle of that power hanging around for that length of time. However, he has given me certain assurances on that.

Amendment 24 deals with geographical limit. My point is a similar one. I do not know whether the Minister can provide clarification, but at the moment there is no such geographical limit in the description of “any land”, which concerns the Opposition.

[Mr Goodwill]

Relocation of businesses might not be limited to areas close to the line. Indeed, I can think of one business that needs a railhead, so any relocation could be to a different place in the region to enable continued access to a railhead.

[Andy McDonald]

That is helpful insofar as it goes, but in the Bill the implication is much wider. I understand that land could be identified for development in London or Birmingham, but the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to acquire land in the Outer Hebrides or the constituency of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun; he might welcome such acquisitions, but I am not sure that was ever the intent. I ask the Minister to think about whether there should be some qualification because, as the Bill stands, the Secretary of State could acquire compulsorily land that had absolutely no connection whatever with the HS2 project.

On amendment 25, the Minister gave a very full answer about the way in which local authorities can be engaged. If he is not going to accept the amendment, as he indicated he will not, he should understand that it does speak to some important issues. There is the method of local authority engagement that he described, which I welcome, but there is a risk of conflict between settled local development plans and the Secretary of State’s coming along to exercise these powers. They could find themselves directly in conflict.

If I heard the Minister correctly, he outlined how that engagement might take place and how matters might be resolved. Nevertheless, as it stands, the clause would give the Secretary of State pre-eminence over the wishes of the local people expressed through their representatives by way of their development plan or its equivalent.

Everyone in this place favours increased and greater devolution in one form or another. Unamended, the clause has the potential to drive a coach and horses through the principles of devolution and local accountability and power, because the pre-eminence is with the Secretary of State. The Minister has already commented, so I hope he will forgive my asking him to consider those remarks. I do not seek to press the amendment to a vote. The Minister might be able to offer some words of reassurance: that the Government do intend to work with local authorities in the full spirit of co-operation that we referred to earlier.

Amendment 23 deals with the better definition of the term “opportunity for regeneration or development”. I am not sure we have had that better defined today. The Minister has said there is no need for that to happen, but I can foresee circumstances where an objection would be raised. Might it not be better to have that settled as a definition, so that there can be no doubt once land has been identified for regeneration on those terms?

I do not intend to press these matters to a vote, but I would be grateful for further comments from the Minister.

[Mr Goodwill]

By all means. I have been trying to think of situations where land may need to be purchased a distance away from the line. I can think of two in particular. One involves businesses. There is a large car dealership, for example, at Old Oak Common; we will work with them to relocate so that the other development can take place. I am also thinking of the Hillingdon outdoor activity centre, which has been a particularly difficult community enterprise that we are seeking to relocate. It could be that the alternative site would be some distance away from the boundaries of the line.

The other issue is depots. Some of the work we are doing means that depots for other rolling stock facilities have to be displaced some distance away. In the case of businesses, the company might want to relocate tens of miles away, if that is convenient, although we would generally need to work with businesses that wish to retain their workforce and, therefore, not move particularly far away.

On timing, I am pleased the hon. Gentleman is confident that the line will run for several centuries. It is important to remember that local authorities already have compulsory purchase order powers and they could promote an order at any time. The clause, as drafted, would not create any additional uncertainty.

On geographical location, the compulsory order checks and balances would, of course, provide appropriate limitations. It would need to be demonstrated that the land did need to be purchased under CPO powers. Indeed, it could be argued that if the site were challenged by the landowner, they could come forward with alternative concerns.

I am pleased that we managed to react to the points the hon. Gentleman sensibly raised in amendments 24 and 25. Following the proceedings in the Hybrid Bill Committee, the Secretary of State is required to consult local authorities.

The co-operation and engagement of local authorities, particularly in the great cities of the north that will primarily benefit from this, have been outstanding. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in those Labour administrations that have engaged with us so effectively. They understand the importance of this for the north.

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 48 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 49

Power to carry out reinstatement works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 49 applies to the power to carry out reinstatement works. It allows the nominated undertaker to carry out reinstatement works within the Bill limits in relation to property, including a business or facility that has been discontinued or substantially impaired, in whole or in part, arising from the exercise of any power under the Bill. The clause aims to assist those affected by the construction of HS2 by providing an efficient mechanism for moving properties such as businesses and reducing the requirement for extinguishment, thus protecting jobs.

Subsection (4) allows the Secretary of State to direct that the deemed planning permission under clause 20(1) does not apply in relation to particular reinstatement works. That will enable the Secretary of State to grant deemed planning permission for the development, subject to conditions to be discharged by the local planning authority.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 49 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 50

Enforcement of environmental covenants

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

I am particularly enthusiastic about clause 50, which relates to the enforcement of environmental covenants. It enables the Secretary of State to ensure that following the construction of the scheme, he may impose conditions on land released where such land contains environmental mitigation for HS2. This is to ensure the maintenance of mitigation measures, upgrades to the mitigation if required and prohibition on uses of the land where such uses would detrimentally affect the measures in place.

The clause binds successors in title into any covenant agreed with previous landowners. The Secretary of State or an authorised person may enforce the agreement.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 50 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 51

Works in Scotland for Phase One purposes

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 51 gives Scottish Ministers an order-making power relating to carrying out works in Scotland for phase 1 purposes. As phase 1 of HS2 will also operate classic compatible trains, some services will continue north from Birmingham at conventional speed to Scotland. Some existing infrastructure in Scotland may, therefore, need alteration—for example, platform lengthening or amendments to depots where the classic compatible rolling stock will be stabled.

Subsection (2) sets out that specified provisions relating to section 1 of the Transport and Works (Scotland) Act 2007 also apply to an order made under the clause.

[Andy McDonald]

I rise to take the opportunity to highlight the fact that phase 1 will ultimately be running further north into Scotland on conventional lines once HS2 is completed through to Manchester and Crewe. Scotland will directly benefit from this investment, which will considerably reduce times back on to the conventional lines from HS2 when it is completed.

[Mr Goodwill]

Yes, the plan is that there will be two types of rolling stock on the line. There will be the high-speed captive trains, which can operate only on the new lines, but classic compatible trains will also run through. From day one, trains will be running through to Glasgow and possibly beyond. Crews will be placed in Scotland on day one manning those trains as they leave to come down and seamlessly transition on to the high-speed line to complete their journey. HS2 will be very good news for the north of England—and Scotland, that very important part of our country.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

I welcome that example of Scottish Government forward planning for high-speed operation. This is just a reminder, but between Crewe and Scotland the trains will actually run slower than they do at present. Overall the journey time will reduce, but this is a wee reminder to the Minister that we need to look at some improvements on the existing line between Crewe and the border in order to try to allow compatible trains to run fast as well. I appreciate that overall there is a shorter journey time, and I do welcome that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 51 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 52

Power to apply Act to further high speed rail works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 52 gives powers to apply the Act to further high-speed rail works; possibly the sort of works that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun referred to. It allows the use of a Transport and Works Act 1992—TWA—order to gain the necessary provisions for extensions or additional works relating to phase 1 of HS2, beyond the works outlined in the Bill. That relates to relatively minor transport works, such as an additional track to connect to rail sidings. This power would not be used to promote future phases of HS2. Those would be subject to the hybrid Bill process. A TWA order cannot apply the provisions of the Bill that enable the Secretary of State to extend the time limit for the exercise of compulsory purchase powers or the provisions relating to listed buildings or ancient monuments.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 52 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 53

Rights of entry for further high speed rail works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 53 concerns rights of entry for further high-speed rail works. It allows a person authorised by a justice of the peace or sheriff, for residential properties, or by written consent from the Secretary of State, for non-residential properties, a right of entry to properties within 500 metres of the centre line of future high-speed rail phases or projects, for the purposes of undertaking surveys or environmental assessment.

For future HS2 phases or other high-speed rail projects, this power is exercisable only if the Secretary of State has proposed to introduce a Bill promoting a high-speed railway by means of a Command Paper. The power is exercisable only within five years of the publication of that Command Paper. It does not apply to a railway wholly in Scotland.

The clause makes it clear that a warrant may be issued or authorisation given only where it appears that there is a genuine need to enter the land relating to the construction of the high-speed railway line, and all reasonable attempts have been made to obtain consent to enter the land.

The Secretary of State may, by order, change the distance of 500 metres. The order is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, unless it provides a different distance only in relation to a specified category, such as noise surveys, in which case the order is subject to the negative resolution procedure.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 53 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 54

Exercise rights of entry

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 54 relates to exercise of rights of entry. It sets out the process for exercising the rights of entry under clause 53 and provides safeguards for property owners.

The validity of any warrant obtained under clause 53 is time-limited to six weeks from the date issued. A right of entry under clause 53(1) is exercisable at any reasonable time. A person authorised under clause 53 to enter land must ensure that the property owner is given at least 14 days’ notice before entry is sought. If a person wilfully obstructs any authorised person exercising this right of entry, they are committing an offence.

[Andy McDonald]

We had a lengthy discussion about time limits. On the face of it, this proposal of six weeks for validity of the warrant seems curtailed and short. I do not know whether that is how such things are ordinarily done, but can the issue be returned to and subsequent warrants sought if it is not exercised in the six-week period?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

May I explain why we have to do this? While we were developing route options for the stage that is under consideration at the moment, a number of landowners did not allow access to land. That gave us some very real problems, particularly in the way that we surveyed some of the ancient woodland and environmental features. It was only when we subsequently could survey the land that we understood the problems in more detail. The proposal would also apply to some of the noise modelling that we need to do, because it is often important to be able to do that work.

We also have a particularly intractable problem in the London borough of Hillingdon. In the Hillingdon outdoor activities centre, we want to go into the lake to carry out some boring to see how a viaduct that we wish to construct in the lake can be done, and the London borough has prevented us from going on to that land. That is very disappointing indeed, because the organisation concerned—the charity that runs this fantastic activities centre—will lose the money that we were going to give them for the disruption that the work would cause, which is between £20,000 and £40,000. It will also mean that we cannot get access to that land until the Bill gets Royal Assent, so we will not be able to draw up as detailed a viaduct design as we would like. We want these viaducts to be designed in an exciting way, so it is disappointing that this has happened. With these powers, it will be possible in future cases to get on to the land to carry out the surveys, whether for engineering, construction or environmental reasons.

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman’s other question is yes: another warrant can be applied for, but an explanation for why the initial warrant was not exercised would need to be given.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 54 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 55

Grants for affected communities and businesses etc

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 55 allows the Secretary of State to award grants to add benefit over and above committed mitigation and statutory compensation to local communities and economies that are demonstrably disrupted by the construction of HS2.

As announced in October 2014, the Department introduced the Community and Environment Fund and the Business and Local Economy Fund and allocated £30 million in total towards those funds to support local businesses and employment, or to improve local community facilities or the environment. Those funds will allow local communities who know their areas best to implement what they think will work for them. Further details are outlined in the HS2 information paper C12, which was published in November 2015.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 55 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 56

Application of powers to Crown land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 56 permits the authorised works to be carried out by the nominated undertaker on Crown land, or Crown land to be entered with the consent of the relevant Crown authority.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 56 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 57

Highways for which Secretary of State is highway authority

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 57 relates to highways for which the Secretary of State is the highway authority—the strategic road network springs immediately to mind. It provides that the powers conferred on the nominated undertaker with respect to works may be exercised in relation to roads under the responsibility of the Secretary of State, subject to his agreement. Subsection (2) states that the Secretary of State can impose conditions in such an agreement.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 57 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 58

Crown Estate

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 58 applies provisions of the Crown Estate Act 1961, which contains limitations on the powers of disposal of the Crown Estate Commissioners. The limitations are removed in relation to Crown Estate land within the Bill limits that appears to the Crown Estate Commissioners to be required for phase 1 purposes. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 58 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 59

Royal parks

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 59 will enable the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport—the Minister responsible for Royal Parks—to grant a lease or right over Royal Park land where that is required for phase 1 of HS2.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 59 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 60

“Deposited plans” and “deposited sections”

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

This clause is not the most exciting one. It makes provision regarding the terms “deposited plans” and “deposited sections” for the purposes of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 60 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 61

Correction of deposited plans

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 61 contains provisions for correcting the plans or book of reference to the plans that have been deposited in Parliament with the Bill, should that be required. There are similar provisions in the Crossrail Act 2008 and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act 1996.

[Andy McDonald]

I rise to comment on the deposited plans. The Minister and I visited Camden a short time ago, where we saw a centre devoted to communicating information to the local area and local community. What mechanisms are in place to ensure that any amendments or corrections to the plans are properly communicated to the people in the local area affected by them?

[Mr Goodwill]

The majority of people access plans using the internet. Of course, when corrections are made, they will immediately appear on those online plans. This is not about making changes but about making corrections where mistakes have been made. There have been more instances than I would have cared for where we have made minor mistakes on the plans, but if one looks at the extent of environmental information and the amount of mapping, it is almost inevitable that some mistakes will be made. The clause will ensure that those mistakes can be corrected after the plans have been deposited in Parliament.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 61 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 62

Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 62 provides that where a building not forming part of the phase 1 works authorised in the Bill—for example, a building over a station—is built to replace a building demolished or substantially demolished under the Bill, the planning application for that replacement building must be accompanied by an environmental assessment subject to certain conditions set out in subsection (1). It is a very sensible provision.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for supplying me with the weighty tome of the environmental impact assessment. To show that I have started to read it, I should tell the Minister that I noticed that the assessment came about because of a European Union directive dealing with matters such as damage to the environment and air quality. That was a very welcome intervention by the European Union in protecting our environment.

[Mr Goodwill]

There has been debate as to how far the Government have complied with the Aarhus convention with regard to some of our environmental considerations. The Aarhus convention is separate from the European Union, although I have to agree with the hon. Gentleman —as someone who believes Britain is better in the European Union than out of it—that much of the EU’s environmental legislation is protecting people’s health here.

When representatives from the Commission came to the UK and saw the extent of our environmental work and consultation, they were very happy indeed that we were fulfilling all our obligations. A number of people have said that it is difficult to build anything in this country because of all the environmental legislation, but I think it is important that we protect our environment. Some of the areas through which we are building the line have particularly sensitive ecosystems. I am therefore proud that we have managed to do this with no net environmental loss, which is fantastic, and that 2 million trees will be planted, which will further enhance the environment.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 62 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 63

Arbitration

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause sets out how disputes are to be dealt with by arbitration under the Bill. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 63 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 64

Notices and other documents

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause relates to serving notices or other documents on any person where required or authorised under the Bill. The clause allows a document to be served by email or other electronic means where the recipient has agreed to that electronic means of service. However, a notice seeking a right of entry for the purposes of further high-speed rail works under clause 53 cannot be given by electronic means.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 64 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 65

“Phase One purposes”

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause defines “Phase One purposes” as used in the Bill. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough asked earlier why the definition had been drafted to include references to further stages of the HS2 project and expressed concerns that the power to acquire land for phase 1 purposes under clause 4(1) might be extended to lands and plans that have not been specified at this stage.

Paragraphs (b) and (c) of the definition have been included to refer to things that need to be done as an integral part of phase 1, to enable HS2 trains to use the HS2 route as a whole or to continue on to the existing rail network, such as the provision of sidings in Manchester; or to ensure that ancillary works provided for phase 1, such as signalling and electrification works, have sufficient capacity to cater for the wider route. The purposes under clause 4(2) for which land acquired may be used therefore include the construction of ancillary works that are designed to cater for both phase 1 and further phases of the HS2 route.

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman, however, that the power to acquire land is tightly constrained, because the power under clause 4(1) applies only to land within the Bill limits—that is, land within the boundaries shown on the plans deposited with the Bill. Most of the land within the limits are also within the limits of deviation from the works specifically described in schedule 1 to the Bill. Any additional land within the Bill limits required for ancillary works, accesses, construction sites and other ancillary purposes is identified in schedules 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 16, together with the purpose for which the land is required.

[Andy McDonald]

I thank the Minister for that thorough and comprehensive explanation. The definition was a matter of concern, although it might have been my interpretation of the drafting. It struck me that “Phase One purposes” had an elasticity that we would not ordinarily expect to see, but I fully accept the explanation given by the Minister. It is entirely logical and sensible, and I support the clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 65 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 66

Interpretation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause defines various terms used throughout the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 66 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 67

Financial provision

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause is a standard one that appears in Bills to provide for the expenditure of public money—the careful expenditure of public money. It simply provides that any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State under the Bill shall be paid out of money provided by Parliament.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 67 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 68

Commencement and short title

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause is a standard one that appears in Bills. The provisions of the Bill will come into force on Royal Assent, except for clause 11 and schedule 14, which will come into force under regulations made by the Secretary of State after the Housing and Planning Bill comes into force.

[Andy McDonald]

I thought that the Minister might propose to the Committee that the name be changed to the Elizabeth II line. I am disappointed that it will stay so boring and business-like, but be that as it may.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 68 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Jackie Doyle-Price.)

High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill (First sitting)

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

As a general rule, my fellow Chair, Mr Chope, and I do not intend to call starred amendments that have been tabled without adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days, so amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on the following Tuesday. The selection list for today’s sittings, showing how the selected amendments have been grouped for debate, is available in the room and on the website. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same issue or on similar issues.

I intend to call first the Member who has put their name to the leading amendment in a group; other Members are then free to catch my eye. Any Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of a debate on a group of amendments I shall again call the Member who moved the lead amendment, and before they sit down they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or seek a decision. If any Member wishes to press any other amendment in a group to a vote, they need to let me know in advance. I shall work on the assumption that the Minister wishes the Committee to reach a decision on all Government amendments.

Members, in particular those who are new to Committee, should note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order in which the amendments are debated, but in the order in which they appear on the amendment paper. In other words, debate occurs according to the selection and grouping list, and decisions are taken when we come to the clause that the amendment affects. I shall use my discretion to decide whether to allow separate stand part debates on individual clauses and schedules, following the debates on the relevant amendments.

Clause 1

Power to construct and maintain works for Phase One of High Speed 2

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I look forward to spending some happy days with you this week, Mr Hanson, discussing this important Bill.

Before I begin, I would like to take a short moment to set out what lies before us. The Committee sittings will enable line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill, which will pave the way for a truly transformational railway. I am delighted that we have reached that landmark, and I would like to record the Government’s, and my own, sincere thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) and his hybrid Bill Committee. That Select Committee sat for 17 months, examined the views expressed in almost 2,600 petitions, and heard evidence from some 1,600 petitioners. Many of the representations the Committee considered led to changes in the Bill that is before us. I look forward to the Committee sittings that lie ahead and to hearing points raised by Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition.

Clause 1 concerns the power to construct and maintain works for phase 1 of High Speed 2. It authorises the nominated undertaker to construct and maintain the work specified in schedule 1 for the construction of phase 1 and other incidental works. This is a standard clause that is found in all works Bills.

Schedule 1 sets out the construction requirements for the scheduled works and provides permitted limits of deviation from the siting of works, as shown on the relevant plans. It also provides a description of the scheduled works. The permitted deviation limits have good precedents in other railways Acts, such as the Crossrail Act 2008 and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act 1996, and they reflect the fact that at this point the design of HS2 is, of necessity, at outline stage. Detailed design will come later and some flexibility is therefore essential. Any variation within the limits of deviation is controlled by the environmental minimum requirements.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

It is a huge honour to appear for the first time as a Committee Front-Bench spokesperson, and to do so under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I will be guided by your wisdom and expertise as we proceed.

I thank the Minister for his courtesy and civility in the run-up to the Committee. It bordered on the comradely, but perhaps that stretches a point. I would also like to acknowledge the sterling work of members of the Select Committee. The Minister spoke about the number of petitions and the work that those Members undertook. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friends the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and the Member for Bolton North East (Mr Crausby). Both constituencies surrendered their Members for a considerable time, as did Preston to the north-west. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr Hendrick) did particularly well. I was regularly reminded of the considerable work undertaken by my good friend the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), who never let an opportunity pass to tell me about the work he was doing. I thank the Clerks for their advice and guidance throughout my preparation.

I support clause 1, but I should like to make some preliminary observations and comments and raise some specific questions. I am mindful of the schedule we have set ourselves and I am confident that we will be able to adhere to it. There may be a number of clauses which deal with technical matters and will not trouble the Committee, but I crave its modest indulgence in making some introductory remarks on clause 1.

The Opposition welcome the Bill and are very supportive of it. However, our support is given on the strict basis and understanding that, at every turn, the HS2 project must produce the best possible outcomes for our country and value for money for the taxpayer. The project was amended and improved during preparations on the Bill and we would like to achieve further improvements through our amendments.

Happily, the Bill has broad cross-party support, and as an undertaking, HS2 will be truly transformational for our country, not only in terms of the speed and connectivity between London and Birmingham in the first instance, but onwards with phase 2 through to Crewe and Manchester and the entire north-west, with connectivity dividends up into Scotland. The same positivity applies to the transformational effects of the expansion from Birmingham through to the east midlands and Sheffield and Leeds, with greater connectivity for the north-east beyond Leeds from bimodal trains reuniting with the east coast conventional mainline and onwards up to Edinburgh.

HS2 is not simply about connectivity and the speed of connectivity. It has been said time and time again that the principal pay-off is increased capacity. There is agreement across the House that our Victorian rail infrastructure, remarkable as it is, simply cannot cope with the incredible increases we have seen, and continue to see, in the number of passenger journeys in the UK. It is in addressing capacity demands that HS2 comes into its own.

By virtue of the availability of HS2 services, the capacity relief to the conventional lines will be considerable, but it is widely recognised that improvements and investments in our conventional lines on the one hand, and in HS2 on the other, do not present an either/or choice. Indeed, as HS2 progresses towards construction, it is equally essential that much-needed investment in our conventional lines—greater electrification and other improvements right across the network—cracks on apace.

Investment in HS2 will not only address issues of capacity and the speed of journeys. The engineering, construction, employment and career opportunities that HS2 represents are colossal and provide immense opportunities for the companies and their skilled workforces and the talent pool that has developed through Crossrail. That can continue and grow, from Crossrail to HS2 phase 1 and beyond.

A great number of people will be able to look back on entire careers spent engaged in high-speed rail construction. HS2 is a wonderful opportunity for our country fully to demonstrate its capabilities. It is essential that we derive the maximum social value from this project for skills, employment and prosperity, not only in the long-term infrastructure dividends that will undoubtedly result from greater and more efficient interconnectivity between our great towns and cities, but from the construction of the infrastructure itself.

The Opposition wholly endorse and acknowledge the need to achieve a greater rebalancing of our economy, which includes the emphasis, while never neglecting London, as if we ever could or should, on growing our economy outside London and ensuring that we realise the full potential of all our country, including the terrific power and energy of the midlands, the north and beyond. The Leader of the Opposition has previously said that our aim is to

“stimulate the economy by increasing investment in new high-speed rail, creating jobs and connecting more towns and cities.”

While the tracks of HS2 are geographically defined and restricted as to where they go, the benefits of HS2 have no such limitations. Workers and companies across the UK will benefit from the opportunity to bid for and secure valuable contracts, and those companies will derive huge benefits for themselves and their workforces from Land’s End to John O’Groats. Indeed, I was immensely impressed at the turnout of companies in my own region in Darlington in Tees Valley a few weeks ago, and I was delighted to see such an appetite for the opportunities that HS2 presented.

While there is considerable agreement about this undertaking across the House, it is imperative that we all consider the matter with great care and consideration. The responsibility for progressing such a huge undertaking is an onerous one, and it is our duty as Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to scrutinise this Bill properly with the utmost seriousness. For those reasons, we take the view that the voices of concern and objection should continue to be given every consideration. There are undoubtedly great concerns about the environmental damage and disruption often necessarily and unavoidably caused in places of natural beauty such as the Chilterns, and we will wish to ensure that such concerns are properly and fully considered.

Although the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) has raised many concerns on behalf of her constituents and various campaign groups, it appears to me that those concerns have largely been addressed by the excellent Select Committee, as evidenced in its report and the amendments that have followed in terms of additional powers and supplementary environmental statements. I note specifically that some 60% of the rail route through the Chilterns will now be by way of tunnelling as opposed to surface track. That said, perhaps the Minister might further comment on the extent to which the concerns expressed about the Chilterns have been addressed.

Perhaps the Minister will also apply his mind to the concerns raised by the Select Committee. On page 42 of its report it noted:

“Chilterns petitioners were concerned about several hydrogeological issues.”

Those issues are listed: I will not read them out, save to say that they concern Wendover and the Misbourne, among others. The Committee requested that the promoter

“address the matter of hydrogeological surveying as a priority.”

Perhaps the Minister will comment on the current status.

Similarly, the concerns raised by the residents of Camden in London and their local authority, Camden Borough Council, about the extensive and long-term major disruption that will be caused by the major reconfiguration of Euston station are extremely serious. In our sittings, I will test the Government on how they have responded and on what modifications they can make to ameliorate the legitimate concerns of a community that will be subjected to major disruption at its heart for many years. This is a once in a lifetime—perhaps several lifetimes—opportunity to build something of real worth and value at Euston and to leave a legacy, in architectural and community terms, of which we can be proud. We wish to explore that issue in detail during our proceedings.

In January 2009, the Labour Government established High Speed 2 Ltd to examine the case for a new high-speed line and to identify a route between London and the west midlands. Our ambition was always that the line could be extended to reach Scotland. In our view, that ambition must be sustained. There have been innumerable consultations and revisions of the plan, and on 11 March 2010 the HS2 report and supporting studies were published, together with the Government’s Command Paper on high-speed rail. Government and Opposition parties have grappled with the interconnectivity with HS1 and will no doubt continue to do so, as we will with the intended linkage with Crossrail 2, especially at Euston, in the years ahead.

It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the considerable trade union support for HS2. There are people in the trade unions who think that HS2 does not go far enough, but if phase 1 is concluded on time and on budget, it will give us the confidence to look at other high-speed services in future.

We need detailed scrutiny to ameliorate the impact on communities, both urban and rural, of this incredibly ambitious undertaking. The project and the Bill have the Opposition’s support, but perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to answer my questions.

[Mr Goodwill]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his tone and the constructive way in which the Opposition are approaching this matter. As he says, this project was conceived under the Labour Government, and hopefully it will be delivered under a Conservative Government. The issues that he raised are at the forefront of our concerns. The Opposition wish to secure good value for money, and the Government share that view. Indeed, the UK is getting a reputation for delivering projects on time and on budget. We need look only at the Olympics, and Crossrail—or the Elizabeth line, as I am proud to say it will now be called—which is being delivered so efficiently.

The hon. Gentleman is right to stress the importance of increasing capacity on our country’s railways. Perhaps we made a mistake in calling the project High Speed 2, because that focused attention on the speed at which the trains will travel. Indeed, if we are going to build a new railway line, we might as well build one to 21st-century standards, rather than another piece of Victorian infrastructure. The success of the railway industry since privatisation has resulted in a more than doubling of the number of passengers using our network from 750 million journeys per year to more than 1.6 billion. We are particularly aware that we need to continue to invest in the conventional network. Indeed, £44 billion has been allocated to upgrade the conventional line. Unfortunately, many passengers will suffer disruption at Easter because of the works that will be carried out over that period, in the same way as much of the work was carried out at Christmas.

We understand the importance of electrification, which will not just enable us to use the very best rolling stock, but will make our railways more sustainable. Were we not in an atmosphere of cross-party collaboration, I would mention how little electrification the previous Labour Government delivered, compared with this Government. I will gloss over that very quickly.

[Andy McDonald]

Before the Minister glosses over that too quickly, perhaps he would reflect on the fact that we inherited the disaster that was Railtrack. I would caution him against further journeys into the privatisation and break-up of our national rail infrastructure, because we might have to have those discussions about the terrible health and safety record all over again.

[The Chair]

Order. Clause 1 is general and I have allowed a very general debate, but it does concern the powers relating to HS2 construction. I hope the Minister can return to that theme.

[Mr Goodwill]

Thank you. I will not be drawn on that, Mr Hanson. I am sure the history books are being written as we speak. The hon. Gentleman is right to refer to the opportunities for jobs, apprenticeships and career development associated with the project. Indeed, many of the skills that have been developed on Crossrail, not least the tunnelling skills, will be very applicable to HS2.

The Government are in the process of setting up—indeed planning permission has been given—the HS2 college in Birmingham, with a satellite college in Doncaster, which has a long tradition of engineering excellence as the home of Sir Nigel Gresley, the Mallard and the Flying Scotsman, which has been so much in the news recently.

This is a long-term project and Lord Adonis was in at the start. Over the period of delivery, we might even have a situation in which the Opposition look slightly electable, so it is important that we continue to work with them. I have been working very closely with the leaders of the great cities of the north, those Labour Mayors and council leaders who understand the importance of HS2 for the north.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough is right to address the sustainability of the delivery of the project. I am proud that we have made it clear that this project will be delivered with no net environmental loss. The hon. Gentleman has already referred to the extensive tunnelling in the Chilterns. We also set up a community fund to allow projects in communities affected, and many of those will be environmental projects. I am also determined that the opportunities afforded by the land we are procuring are used to the full to increase cycling and walking along the route.

The hon. Gentleman specifically raised the issue of hydrogeology, which is something that our engineers are very concerned to address. A number of water courses will be bisected and a number of drainage issues that farmers have been concerned about will be addressed. HS1, currently our only high-speed line, has been shown to be particularly resilient against flooding. The flooding in the south-east two years ago caused widespread disruption to the conventional rail network, but HS1 was resilient and the drainage issues were addressed.

I understand the issue the hon. Gentleman raised about Camden. It is a densely populated part of London, and we will be delivering one of the biggest projects at Euston, including a massive upgrade to the underground station, which will benefit people in that area. Businesses may be concerned about how they will be affected, and I had lunch with the former right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras, Frank Dobson, in one of the restaurants in Drummond Street that could be affected by the construction. We made sure to listen to their concerns, particularly how their regular clientele can access the properties while the construction is going on.

We have a tremendous opportunity at Euston. The hon. Gentleman and I were both at a community engagement centre that has been set up for people who have questions about the construction and want to raise concerns about the delivery of the project, to ensure disruption can be minimised as far as possible. At all stages of the project, we will be sure to engage with communities so that they can be aware of likely disruption and we can mitigate it.

We have a tremendous opportunity at Euston to deliver a state-of-the-art railway station, such as the one at King’s Cross, which has been the centre for a genuine revitalisation of that area. I know the Secretary of State is keen to revitalise the Euston arch, the iconic symbol of Euston station, mirrored at the other end of the line in Birmingham with a similar arch. I hope we can build an iconic station that will be a centre for redevelopment in that area.

[Andy McDonald]

I wholeheartedly agree with him about the opportunity that Euston presents for something of great significance and worth. Does he also share my view that it is absolutely imperative that the focus does not shift too far from the needs of the community? As currently presented, Euston station represents something of a wall between communities in Camden. There is the issue of permeability. We talked about cycling and walking, but that must be an integral part of the plans for Euston as it progresses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

That is right. Indeed, I noticed concerns about the development on Euston station and the importance of the impact on those who live in the vicinity. I understand that the hon. Gentleman has tabled a number of new clauses on Euston, and I suggest that we discuss this in more detail as part of the debate on those proposed new clauses.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned Scotland. We need to make it absolutely clear that high-speed rail trains will arrive in Glasgow on day one of HS2. The so-called classic compatible trains will run through onto the existing network, so the time benefits and the capacity improvements will benefit those in Scotland. Indeed, I expect that there will be Scottish-crewed trains in those very early days.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the importance of connectivity with Crossrail. Old Oak Common will be a very important opportunity for people to alight from High Speed 2, get on to Crossrail—or the Elizabeth line, as I am delighted that we are calling it—and then connect with other locations within the city. We have calculated that about 30% of those coming into London will see Old Oak Common as their terminus, and there they will connect under Crossrail or other services to access Heathrow airport or other parts of London. In some cases, for example for Westminster tube station, although it will be slightly quicker to go via Euston and the Northern line, it will only take three minutes longer to use the Elizabeth line. Many Members of Parliament may choose to sacrifice that three minutes so that they can travel on the new Crossrail line.

I am sure that a number of the points that the hon. Gentleman has raised will be explored in more detail over the days ahead, but I appreciate the very constructive way in which the Opposition have approached this. I look forward to working with them to ensure that the concerns they have raised are properly addressed, as we have already done on a number of occasions, both through the hybrid Bill Committee and the way that we have responded on issues such as compensation.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

Clause 2

Further provision about works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 2 concerns further provision about works. It is not exactly a very exciting title, but it authorises the nominated undertaker to carry out any ancillary works that are necessary for the construction and maintenance of phase 1 of HS2, so long as such works remain within the limits as shown on the plans. This could be either railway works or, as stated in subsection (3),

“landscaping and other works to mitigate any adverse effects of the construction”.

Again, this is a standard clause for works Bills. Subsection (4) introduces schedule 2, which contains,

“further and supplementary provision about works”.

This schedule allows certain protective works, such as the preservation of buildings, tree management and so on, to be carried out for works authorised by the Bill. Schedule 2 also describes how the nominated undertaker can access properties along the route to carry out works and provide safeguards for those property owners.

Subsection (5) allows the nominated undertaker to divert the electricity lines identified in schedule 3 and carry out the ancillary works required for these diversions. I am sorry that I could not make it more exciting, but I beg to move that clause 2 stands part of the Bill.

[Andy McDonald]

I simply endorse the comments of the Minister and congratulate him on making something very dull very exciting—I enjoyed what he had to say.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 2 and 3 agreed to.

Clause 3

Highways

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 3 concerns highways and introduces schedule 4, which allows a nominated undertaker to carry out works to and otherwise affect highways. That includes creating new or improving existing highways, allowing means of access and stopping up roads. I beg to move that clause 3 stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

Clause 4

Power to acquire land compulsorily

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 10, in clause 4, page 3, line 12, at end insert—

‘(6) When land is acquired under subsection (1), and is not otherwise specifically authorised under this Act, the Secretary of State must lay a report before Parliament setting out the reason for the acquisition before Parliament, and any such report must then also be published on the nominated undertaker’s website within 5 working days.”

If the Secretary of State compulsorily acquires land under subsection (1), and this is not otherwise specifically authorised under this Act, this amendment would require him to lay a report before Parliament setting out the reasons for the acquisition and publish the report on the website of the nominated undertaker within 5 working days.

Clause 4 says:

“The Secretary of State may acquire compulsorily so much of the land within the Act limits as may be required for Phase One purposes.”

We propose an additional paragraph at line 12. Let me draw the Committee’s attention to the wording of sub-section (1), which describes,

“land within the Act limits as may be required for Phase One purposes”,

and to clause 65, which helps us to interpret what phase 1 purposes are. It states:

“References in this Act to anything being done or required for “Phase One purposes” are to the thing being done or required… otherwise for the purposes of or in connection with Phase One of High Speed 2 or any high speed railway transport system of which Phase One of High Speed 2 forms or is to form part.”

By definition, that is a significant and wide-ranging power that is totally outwith the scope of phase 1 works or purposes, given the way that phase 1 purposes are described. I urge caution, because—unless the Minister persuades me otherwise— this is an area where we would be better advised to keep the restriction to phase 1 and not extend it for things that are going to come along in the future. I understand the logic of getting this out of the way now and for ever, but we have just been through an extensive Select Committee process, looking at the lands contained within phase 1 purposes. It is dangerous to introduce a power and authority at this stage that would extend that.

So we accept the need for the Secretary of State to have the power to compulsorily acquire land for the construction of HS2 phase 1, but we have concerns that as it stands the clause would grant the Secretary of State the broadest of powers that would not be subject to satisfactory overview from Parliament and would not be sufficiently transparent. The amendment would not curtail the powers of the Secretary of State that the clause seeks to grant, and would not impede the construction of the railway, but it would require the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament setting out the reasons for the acquisition of land under subsection (1), if it was not otherwise specifically authorised under the Act.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am delighted to be here in Committee. I have served on Bill Committees that have been likened to being on a long train journey in the same carriage with the same people for several weeks. However, at two weeks, this is a high-speed Committee.

I am a supporter of HS2 and have been a supporter of investment in our rail network for some time. HS2 is a very good project for my constituency and for Greater Manchester. That is widely recognised, and the justification is capacity. Even when a lot of publicity was initially given to the speed of the journey time, for me the project was always about capacity. The figures bear that out. Anyone who has caught a train at a particular time from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly will be familiar with our capacity problems. It is extremely clear when we look at the alternatives that patching the existing network or building a new line that is not a high-speed line will not meet the capacity need. The evidence is that we need a project such as this. We have support for the project from both sides of the House of Commons and we should proceed as soon as possible.

The consensus on the merits of the project means that we have to be particularly diligent in Committee to make sure that the powers granted to the Government in the Bill are proportionate and effective. As has been said, the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill went through an extremely good process and garnered more support for the project as it proceeded. I read clause 4, as my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough did, as a wide-ranging and permissive set of powers, particularly subsection (4). My reading of it makes it, in legal terms, the same as a compulsory purchase order. There will be understandable concerns that it will weaken accountability and the scrutiny that we gave the provision in the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill. We need to be careful that we do not lose some of the good will that we have garnered so far in this process. I hope that the Minister will make clear why the clause is drafted as widely as it is. Will he tell us the benefits of the clause over the reasonable amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough?

[Mr Goodwill]

As we have already discussed, clause 4 refers to powers to acquire land compulsorily. Compulsory powers are needed because they are a tried and tested method of delivering major infrastructure projects. We have provided safeguards for property owners that go beyond the statutory requirements under normal compulsory purchase rules. For example, we have introduced the voluntary purchase scheme for properties between 60 and 120 metres from the centre of the railway and the need-to-sell scheme for those who have suffered perceived blight due to the railway. The latter has no geographical limit.

The detail of the modifications is set out in the schedule. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde talked about the importance of capacity. We need to be clear that when we talk about capacity, we are talking about people standing on trains. On most weekday mornings about 4,000 or 5,000 people are standing on trains into Euston and a smaller but still significant number are standing on trains into Birmingham New Street.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough mentioned clause 65(c). This does not seek to purchase land specifically for phase 2; it relates only to land within limits and does not give a general power to acquire land. While I am not against the flow of what the hon. Gentleman is saying, I believe that we have already addressed his fears in the way we have drafted the Bill. Indeed, clause 4(1) contains the power to acquire all land required for the scheme. The Bill divides that land into different categories. The main category is land within the limits of deviation for the work set out in schedule 1. Other land needed for construction and ancillary purposes is specified and identified in schedules 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 16, together with the purpose for which that land is required. There is, therefore, no land within clause 4(1) that is not specifically authorised for compulsory purchase.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Before we continue, for Members’ interest and observation, clause 65(c) will be reached later and while reference can be made to it now, we are dealing with amendment 10 to clause 4 and we should keep our comments to the general issues around that.

[Mr Goodwill]

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that the clause relates only to land within limits and does not create a general power to acquire land. Indeed, as I already mentioned, the land needed for construction and ancillary purposes is already identified in schedules 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 16, together with the purpose for which that land is required. I understand why the hon. Gentleman might be concerned that this could be interpreted as giving more general rights, but the actual powers for compulsory purchase are very limited by those schedules. I respectfully suggest that this amendment is essentially an unnecessary duplication of the Bill. I hope that this clarification will reassure the hon. Gentleman so that he can withdraw it.

[Andy McDonald]

I note your words of caution about cross-referring, Mr Hanson. I will limit my comments to saying that I do not think we have heard sufficient reassurance from the Minister that the powers will not be extended to lands and plans that have not been specified at this stage. In the absence of the reassurance I had hoped for, I wish to press the matter to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

I hope the Opposition will understand that, although we appreciate their concerns, those have been addressed and the reassurances, which I hope they will look at again, do stand the test of legal scrutiny.

Clause 4 involves a power to acquire land compulsorily. It provides the Secretary of State with a power compulsorily to acquire land outlined in the Bill plans, and within the limits where such land is required for phase 1 of HS2. Compulsory purchase is always contentious. Many people will already be aware that their land might well be acquired in that way.

Subsection (2) introduces schedule 5, which describes the land to be acquired and the purpose for which it may be acquired. That is not the land required for the scheduled works but land required for ancillary works, including environmental mitigation, utility diversions and the re-provision of diverted public rights of way.

The clause further provides that the normal legislative regime relating to compulsory acquisition is to apply, subject to the modifications set out in schedule 6. The purpose of the modification is to streamline the acquisition process, as Parliament will already have given approval to the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 5 and 6 agreed to.

Clause 5

Acquisition of rights in land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 5 involves the acquisition of rights in land and provides the Secretary of State with the power to acquire rights in land, such as access over it, rather than the land itself, for the purpose of phase 1 of HS2.

Subsection (2) introduces schedule 7, which specifies land where restrictive covenants can be imposed for the protection of land above proposed tunnels and the preservation of ground reprofiling, as set out in column 3 of the table in the schedule. It will ensure that no future changes are made that detrimentally affect the ability to deliver, maintain or operate phase 1 of HS2.

--- Later in debate ---

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 6, on acquisition of part of land, introduces schedule 10, which provides an alternative procedure to that set out in the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965, relating to the acquisition to only part of a house, building or factory. The alternative procedure applies where notice of the acquisition of part of the property is given, together with a copy of the clause and schedule 10. Provision for a similar alternative procedure was made by the Crossrail Act 2008 and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act 1996. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 10 agreed to.

Clause 7

Acquisition of airspace

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 7 refers to the acquisition of airspace. It allows the Secretary of State to use the power under clause 4(1) to compulsorily acquire airspace only, rather than the land beneath it, for the purpose of aerial work, which includes work on bridges and overhead cables. The clause provides that where the Secretary of State needs to acquire only airspace, a landowner cannot require the Secretary of State to compulsorily purchase the land beneath it. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8

Acquisition of subsoil or under-surface

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 8, which logically follows on, refers to the acquisition of subsoil or under-surface. It allows the Secretary of State to compulsorily purchase only the subsoil or under-surface of land within limits for works such as tunnelling. Where the Secretary of State acquires only the subsoil or under-surface, he cannot be compelled to purchase the surface land, except where a sub-surface acquisition impacts on part of a building and could therefore have a material detrimental impact on the remainder of the property.

Subsection (4) introduces schedule 11, which in specified cases restricts the compulsory powers of acquisition to subsoil or under-surface of land and surface access rights. Table 1 of the schedule details land where only subsoil more than 9 metres below the surface can be compulsorily acquired—mostly for deep tunnels. Table 2 identifies land where subsoil more than 9 metres below the surface, together with surface access rights, can be compulsorily acquired.

For clarification, under-surface is material below the surface to a depth of 9 metres, whereas subsoil is material below a depth of 9 metres.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 11 agreed to.

Clause 9

Highway subsoil

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Just when you thought that we had covered absolutely everything, we move to clause 9, which refers to highway subsoil. It allows the nominated undertaker to use any subsoil beneath the “highway” within the Bill limits, which is required for the purpose of construction and maintenance of works authorised by the Bill without the need formally to acquire the subsoil or any interest in it. This does not apply to cellars, vaults, archways or other structures that form part of the building fronting on to a highway.

Subsections (3) and (4) introduce schedule 12, which lists the highway land where the powers to take subsoil or compulsorily acquired interest in land cannot be exercised except in the case of street works. Subsection (5) provides that, in the case of highways in the land specified in the table in paragraph 1 of schedule 11, only subsoil that is more than 9 metres beneath the level of the surface may be taken, but street works can be carried out.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 9 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 12 agreed to.

Clause 10

Termination of power to acquire land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Having discussed the powers to acquire land, we now move to the termination of power to acquire land. Clause 10 sets out an expiry period for compulsory purchase powers of five years from the date of Royal Assent. The clause allows the Secretary of State to extend that period by another five years by order. Any order extending the time limit for the exercise of these powers is subject to special parliamentary procedure. For clarification, special parliamentary procedure is set out in the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act 1945 and allows parliamentary scrutiny of that proposal. The period can be exceeded only once in relation to any particular land.

Subsection (4) introduces schedule 13, which enables land owners, in the event of an extension to the time limit, to require the Secretary of State to acquire their property interest and, if he decides not to, the compulsory purchase powers over the property interest will cease. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

[Sir Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

I will be very brief, Mr Hanson. I want to ask the Minister about a point of fact. I am confident that the programme for building the first phase of HS2 will be completed within the timescale by 2016. However, under clause 10, the power to acquire land comes into force when the Act is passed, which I assume will be some time during the course of 2016. Under subsection (1), both powers remain in force for five years, so up until some point in 2021. However, there is a catch-out in subsection (2), which gives the Secretary of State the power to extend for another five years if needed, which would take us to some time in 2026. What happens if by some ill fate the delivery of phase 1 is delayed beyond 2026 and the Secretary of State needs to purchase some land 10 years after the Bill becomes an Act? The straightforward answer is that there will be no delay, and I am confident of that, but let us consider the worst-case scenario: what would happen if the project went beyond 2026, say by six months or a year, and it was discovered that land needed to be purchased?

[Mr Goodwill]

I hope that I can allay my right hon. Friend’s fears about those matters. First, the period can be extended only once in relation to any particular land. For projects with long construction periods, such flexibility enables staged purchase where appropriate, so that landowners can keep their property interests for as long as possible and Government ownership of private property is reduced until required. Indeed, some landowners—farmers or people using land for other reasons—might want to hold on to their land for as long as possible. However, it is right that such powers are time-limited; it would not be appropriate for the Government to have a permanent right to take property, as that would cause landowners great uncertainty. As I have already said, subsection (4) introduces schedule 13, which enables landowners in the event of an extension of the time limit to require the Secretary of State to acquire their property interests. If such acquisition is decided against, the compulsory purchase powers over the property will cease.

We are determined to build the project on time and on budget, so in many ways it is a case of braces and belt, to ensure that we have those powers if needed. However, if delivery was delayed and new land was needed, we could seek further powers using the Transport and Works Act 1992 or a development consent order. We will acquire land well in advance of its use. Indeed, landowners are empowered, in that they are not kept waiting for ever and a day for compulsory purchase powers to be brought into force. Rather, they can force the Government to purchase their land, to enable them to move on—they may well have other plans within their business that they want to take forward.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 13 agreed to.

Clause 11

Amendments to this Act consequential on the Housing and Planning Act 2016

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 11 introduces schedule 14, which makes a number of amendments to the Bill that are consequential to provisions being made by part 7 of the Housing and Planning Bill regarding the compulsory purchase regime. That Bill is currently in the Lords, and it is expected to have passed through the parliamentary process in this Session. If amendments relating to the compulsory purchase provisions are made to that Bill, we will need to consider whether further amendments need to be made to this Bill. Once again, we are in braces and belt territory.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 14 agreed to.

Clause 12

Extinction of rights over land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 12 relates to the extinction of rights over land and introduces schedule 15, which seeks to extinguish private rights and any general rights of access over land where such land is required for phase 1 of HS2. Those who suffer loss due to extinguishment would be entitled to compensation under the normal compensation provisions. Provisions for extinguishing rights have been included in the Crossrail Act 2008 and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act 1996, and similar provisions apply to compulsory acquisition by local authorities.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 12 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 15 agreed to.

Clause 13

Extinction of rights of statutory undertakers

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 13 relates to the extinction of rights of statutory undertakers; it mirrors much of the previous clause. It applies provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 that provide a process by which any apparatus of a statutory undertaker on such land may be removed and related rights over the land extinguished. Clause 13 is subject to the protective provisions that detail statutory undertakers in schedule 32, which makes provision for the diversion or protection of their apparatus.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 13 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 14

Exclusion of new rights of way

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 11, in clause 14, page 7, line 8, at end insert—

‘(3A) Nothing in this section shall prevent the nominated undertaker, or other owners of railway stations, from establishing any new right of way within or over railway stations that are used for Phase One purposes.”

This amendment would provide that Clause 14 shall not prevent the nominated undertaker or other owners of railway stations from establishing new rights of ways within or over railways stations used for Phase One purposes.

I rise to reassure people that I have not lost the power of speech and to give you something of a rest, Mr Hanson. Clause 14 deals specifically with the exclusions of new rights of way. Our amendment would add new subsection (3A) to the clause. The clause as drawn is accurate and proper, but we simply want to leave a permissive option for new rights of way to be created. The amendment speaks primarily to the issues arising at Euston station and the concerns expressed by Camden Council and a number of local groups and individuals who may be impacted by construction works as the station is developed, but it is also applicable to any other station on the network.

As regular travellers to London, each of us has probably used Euston station at some point, although the Minister and I are more regular users of the sister station at King’s Cross. I hope that the wonderfully ambitious structure at King’s Cross will ultimately be mirrored by something of equal measure at Euston. One thing that would strike you, Mr Hanson, on walking around Euston station is how imposing the station is for the communities on either side of it; it splits the area in half and sits there like a huge obstruction in the community. If planners and developers had a blank sheet of paper, they would not come up with that sort of design today.

HS2 Ltd has been engaged with Camden Council on the issue and there have been a number of assurances, one of which is a commitment to maintaining pedestrian rights of way. When Euston station is redeveloped, a right of way through the station would be desirable. That would prevent the station from obstructing travel for those who live near or wish to pass by, as is presently the case. When redeveloped, it is important that Euston station is as permeable as possible for local residents, whether they are cycling or on foot. I note that in his opening remarks the Minister made a comment about the need to protect and encourage cycling and walking routes as the station is developed. It is important that the station is as permeable as possible, but the Bill, as drafted, might frustrate any such moves. Clause 14 states that:

“No right of way may be acquired by prescription or user over land which—

(a) forms an access or approach to any railway infrastructure.”

Our concern is that the Bill might prevent a right of way being established through Euston station. That is what this amendments seeks to rectify, and not only for Euston, but for everywhere else. It is not just about the prohibition on the creation of rights of way, but more specifically about the ability deliberately to permit the creation of a right of way, where appropriate, that will address the needs of communities such as the ones around Euston. I do not wish to be too unkind, but Euston is not the prettiest or the most access-friendly station for the residents of Camden. They have the station in their midst and suffer the inconveniences caused by its impermeable mass. It is for those reasons that we consider the amendment to be entirely sensible and appropriate. It caters for that very contingency.

The amendment does not presuppose where such rights of way may lie, but one would hope that they would address the permeability issue at Euston and facilitate not only east-west access but north-south access. I stress that the amendment does not dictate where these rights of way should be but, in the context of this clause’s discussion of the exclusion of new rights of way, it provides for the contingency of the nominated undertaker to create new rights of way that would address these issues. I trust that the Minister can follow the sense of this. Having been at Euston himself, he will understand the point I am addressing. I hope that he will accept the amendment.

[Mr Goodwill]

I think that I can allay the hon. Gentleman’s fears. Clause 14 prevents rights of way from being

“acquired by prescription or user over land which…forms an access or approach to any railway infrastructure, and”

which is held for phase 1 of HS2. It is important to understand precisely what the term “acquired by prescription” means. It refers to the legal process of a right of way becoming established through use over a period of at least 20 years. It refers not to a new right of way but to a right of way that has been used in a certain part of the country. The process could be operated if a landowner tried to prevent that land from being used, because it could be argued that the right of way had been firmly established over 20 years. The term “acquired by prescription” does not refer to other types of right of way or access that the operator of the station may allow.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to focus on the tremendous opportunity that the borough of Camden and the area around Euston will have in the development of the station. Indeed, one immediate benefit will be that the new underground station will enable a connection between Euston Square underground station and the main Euston station, which is currently a short walk across the traffic-choked streets of London. That connection will be of immediate benefit to the people of Euston.

On how people can access routes through the station, a number of considerations will need to be taken into account, not least compliance with fares and security, to ensure that people cannot access the railway or get on trains without tickets.

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that the clause does not prevent a railway station owner from allowing the public access over, under or through a station. If a station owner wants to provide an officially designated right of way, they can do so by following the existing process under the Highways Act 1980. Throughout the Bill, we have sought not to legislate where processes already exist, except when necessary for the expeditious delivery of phase 1 of HS2.

I hope that my clarification will reassure the hon. Gentleman that the measure applies to a specific way in which a right of way can be established, which I suspect could be used by those who might want to frustrate the delivery of the railway. It therefore makes a lot of sense to exempt that process from the Bill, so I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for his assurances, which have gone some way towards satisfying me. If I have interpreted his remarks correctly, he is saying that there is a power elsewhere to grant a right of way and that the amendment is therefore unnecessary, but we have an opportunity here, because the amendment would not detract from that ability. He may say that it would not add to the existing ability, but it would be merely permissive. The amendment would say that new rights of way are possible and—not that we are here to send out messages—make it abundantly clear in the Bill that the significant issue of access and egress for the residents of Camden is within the contemplation of HS2, the Bill’s promoter and everybody else, and that it has been properly thought through.

I am reassured to a large degree, but it is still important to state in the Bill that Euston and other railway stations have the ability to address residents’ concerns about being cut off from each other in the way that I described. Unless the Minister is able to assist me further, I intend to press the amendment to a vote.

[Mr Goodwill]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands that rights of way, bridleways and so on exist in several areas where the railway will be built, and that this is not just about stations. We have done everything in our power to ensure that rights of way are protected. Indeed, there will be expensive infrastructure in many cases to ensure that rights of way are not cut off. We want to go further and use the opportunity presented by the corridor that we are acquiring to connect existing rights of way or create new rights of way, which will be a great facility for local communities. I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about Euston, and we may need to address that issue, particularly during the construction phase. We are absolutely determined to work with communities to ensure that businesses are not cut off from their customers, because many people who use the station will use businesses in the vicinity.

However, clause 14 refers to a specific process that can be used to establish a right of way. If we did not have this exclusion, my concern is that those who might wish to frustrate the delivery of the railway through legal processes could come up with the argument that a particular right of way has been used for 20 years, and it would then be our job to disprove that claim. I hope the hon. Gentleman will understand that we are trying to prevent a legal mechanism. I do not think that there are many rights of way within the Euston area that would not be considered rights of way and thus might require the process to be used. However, it might be used in other areas on the railway, and we might find that it was a legal minefield. That is why we have included the measure in the Bill.

I hope that that has reassured the hon. Gentleman. It is absolutely our intention to do everything possible to ensure that those affected by the construction and delivery of the railway can continue with their normal way of life and have the access that they currently enjoy to property and businesses. The railway is all about accessibility and getting people moving around the country; it is not about preventing people from moving where they wish.

--- Later in debate ---

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

I will briefly reiterate what the clause does. It prevents rights of way from being acquired by prescription, which is a legal term that I have described whereby if it can be established that a right of way has been used for 20 years, it is an established right of way. Under the clause, we are removing that power.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 14 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15

Temporary possession and use of land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause introduces schedule 16, which gives the Secretary of State a power to take temporary possession of land within the limits of the Bill for the purpose of phase 1 of HS2. The land listed in the table in the schedule may only be taken temporarily, and is not acquired except for rights over the land and subsoil.

Schedule 16 sets out the procedure, including the notice required, the payment of compensation to affected landowners and arrangements for the restoration and return of the land. Where land is not required permanently or not materially changed, or where no new railway works will be constructed, we will normally consider the use of powers of temporary possession if the landlord so wishes and it is economic for the Secretary of State to do so.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 15 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 16 agreed to.

Clause 16

Use of roads

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 12, in clause 16, page 7, line 19, leave out—

“the end of five years beginning with”.

This amendment would remove the power of the nominated undertaker to use specified roads for the passage of persons or vehicles for five years after Phase One is brought into general use.

This is very much a probing amendment—I do not think we will need to divide on it. It is about an issue raised by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford: the project being on time. As currently drafted, the clause leaves the timescales in some doubt. The Opposition agree that the nominated undertaker should of course have the power to use any roads on specified land for the passage of persons and vehicles for the purposes of phase 1 of High Speed 2, but it is not clear why the nominated undertaker will require that power for five additional years after phase 1 has been brought into general use. Once it is up and running, it is up and running. I do not want to put at residents’ doors the spectre of vehicles trucking up and down with materials.

[Andy McDonald]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and that may indeed be so, but the clause currently specifies a five-year period beyond the project being completed and effective. Something would have to have gone badly wrong if the clearance of debris and materials took five years.

I keep coming back to the example of Euston. The people in that neighbourhood will necessarily be affected by very considerable building works. We will discuss this in greater detail later in Committee, but some of the works will be really close to people’s homes—within a few metres of retaining walls and retained properties next to HS2—so they will have enough on their plate. I would suggest that the prospect of the project being concluded but there being permission for roads to be used for the specified purpose for a further five-year period will be intolerable.

We are suggesting that the reference to five years be left out, leaving subsection (2) to read: “The power…may not be exercised after the date on which Phase One of High Speed 2 is brought into general use.” The right hon. Gentleman’s point is fair, but the amendment was tabled to highlight the fact that things could literally rumble on for years, long after HS2 is up and running. Will the Minister help us by explaining why it is necessary for the nominated undertaker to be able to exercise the power for such a long time?

[Mr Goodwill]

I shall clarify exactly what the clause specifies for the use of roads. It allows the nominated undertaker to use any road specified in the table in schedule 8, which is for land in which only rights may be compulsorily acquired, or in the table in paragraph 2 of schedule 11, so as to obtain a right of passage for the purpose of phase 1 of HS2. As we have discussed, the power will end five years after phase 1 of HS2 is brought into general use.

On compensation, I reassure the hon. Gentleman that if access to the roads is required, compensation is payable by the nominated undertaker to the person responsible for managing the road for any loss suffered as a result of its use for phase 1 of HS2. We are not taking a right without understanding our obligations to the owner of the road. Any dispute over entitlement to compensation or the amount of compensation must be determined under part 1 of the Land Compensation Act 1961.

The power will last for five years, to enable the nominated undertaker to carry out remedial works if necessary. Let me assure the hon. Gentleman that that goes beyond what is referred to in the building trade as basic snagging—the alleviation of minor problems. In any construction project, it is essential that the promoter retains the ability to return to the works following completion to rectify any defects that arise. Subsection (1) allows the access rights used for construction to be used after the completion of the works for that purpose. For a major project such as this, a period of five years is considered an appropriate amount of time for such rights to be retained.

Let me draw attention to some of the issues that might come up. The hon. Gentleman talked about hydrogeological issues, such as problems with drainage or subsidence, and asked whether the infrastructure of the line will need to be revisited if faults emerge. We regard five years as a sensible timescale for problems to emerge, and we therefore consider it necessary. I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful for the Minister’s response. There is logic in what he says, and I entirely get the point about the ability to return. One would like to think that the power will rarely be used. He talked about issues arising within five years, but if something untoward takes place further on in the lifetime of HS2—if there is a hydrogeological or electrical problem—the undertaker will have to return to the site.

As I said, this is a probing amendment, and as the Minister has gone a long way towards satisfying me, I am minded to withdraw it. However, given that he has raised the issue, can he describe the nominated undertaker’s power to return to the scene to address construction problems that emerge after the five-year period has elapsed? Presumably they are as relevant as anything that occurs within the five-year period.

[Mr Goodwill]

The first point I would make is that we have a very good way of accessing the high-speed rail line, which is along the high-speed rail line itself. Much of the engineering work and maintenance that will need to be carried out on the signalling or the catenary—the overhead lines—can be accessed from the railway itself. In the vast majority of cases, we will be able to access the line using the line.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that in 40 or 50 years’ time, we may need to carry out other work. Network Rail already has processes to enable that to happen, including negotiation with landowners and permissive use. This clause is specifically about addressing defects or issues that require more major engineering work than the maintenance that we envisage over the lifetime of the railway. It is sensible to have such powers in hand. We are confident that the railway that will be delivered will be reliable and well constructed. Once again, the braces-and-belt strategy ensures that the power is in place if it is necessary to look at particular aspects of the line and carry out further work to alleviate problems.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister for his reassurances and further explanations. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 17

Cranes

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

This clause enables cranes employed by the nominated undertaker to enter the airspace above the land outlined in the table in subsection (7) for the purposes of the works for phase 1 of HS2. Seven days’ notice must be given to the owners and occupiers of the land before the right to oversail a crane is exercised. The right ends seven days after completion of the activities for which the crane has been used. The nominated undertaker must pay compensation to landowners should loss be suffered as a result of the oversailing of cranes. Any dispute, as to a person’s entitlement to compensation, or as to the amount of compensation, must be determined under part 1 of the Land Compensation Act 1961. Nothing in these provisions will affect liability compensation under the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 17 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 18

Enforcement of restrictions on land use

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 18 refers to enforcement of restrictions on land use and allows the Secretary of State, when entering into agreements relating to phase 1 of HS2 that impose prohibitions or restrictions on the owners of land, to bind successors in title as if they were the original party. That is despite the fact that the Secretary of State may not at any time of the agreement own land to be benefited by the prohibition or restriction.

The clause ensures that a change in the ownership of land required in some way for HS2 purposes does not extinguish any covenants entered into by agreement between the Secretary of State and the previous landowner. Normally, for such a power to be enforceable, one would require an interest in land to be benefited by the covenant. However, the Secretary of State will have such an interest only after he exercises power under the Bill. The clause ensures that agreements entered into before the power to exercise are enforceable against successors in title.

Will the restriction or provision be a local land charge? Yes. The disapplication of section 2(c) of the Local Land Charges Act 1975 secures that the restriction or provision will be a local land charge.

[Andy McDonald]

A point occurred to me when the Minister mentioned the succession in title and the power to bind the land subsequently, should the Secretary of State, as the single shareholder of HS2 Ltd, ever part company with ownership. I support the clause but would make another point. That situation could be avoided altogether if the Government committed to keep the railway in state ownership in perpetuity.

[Mr Goodwill]

I think that might be a subject for debate another day in another place. Having seen the success of privatised railways in the UK, with our franchising model emulated around the world, I think we should keep all our options open—

[Andy McDonald]

Indeed.

[Mr Goodwill]

—to ensure that we can deliver the best railway, which in my view may well include some private sector involvement.

[Andy McDonald]

Amen to keeping all options open.

[The Chair]

The question is that clause 18, in the meantime, stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 18 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19

Compensation for injurious affection

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 19 refers to compensation for injurious affection. I am so pleased that I am not a lawyer having to deal with these terms all the time. To put it simply, it provides that the nominated undertaker, instead of the Secretary of State, will be responsible for paying compensation under section 10(1) of the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965.

Section 10(1) provides for compensation for any decrease in the market value of land caused by the carrying out of the authorised works. It is appropriate for the nominated undertaker to be responsible for paying that type of compensation, since the works have to be carried out by the nominated undertaker, not, hon. Members will be pleased to know, by the Secretary of State.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 19 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 20

Deemed planning permission

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 20, page 9, line 14, at end insert—

“(d) No works that are not scheduled works under this Act may be undertaken until the Secretary of State has published guidelines on how developments will be assessed as likely to have significant effects on the environment for the purposes of subsection (2)(a).”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish guidelines on how developments will be assessed as to whether they are likely to have significant effects on the environment.

I am grateful to the Minister for his clarification of injurious affection. I thought that might be something to do with over-passionate kissing. [Interruption.] What people get up to in Whitby when Dracula is around, I leave to them.

I speak to clause 20 and the deemed planning permission provisions. Our amendment seeks to make a significant change. At subsection (2)(c) we add:

“No works that are not scheduled works under this Act may be undertaken until the Secretary of State has published guidelines on how developments will be assessed as likely to have significant effects on the environment for the purposes of subsection (2)(a)”.

That would simply provide that where development authorised by this Act consists of carrying out works not scheduled under the Act, subsection (1) does not apply—in other words, deemed planning permission—if the development is likely to have significant effects on the environment with factors such as nature, size and location. That is what we are trying to gain clarity about and I hope that my amendment will assist. As it currently stands, it is the decision of the Secretary of State to adjudge whether a future development that is not scheduled has a significant environmental impact. However, the criteria that the Secretary of State would use are not delineated or specified in the Bill. In the interests of transparency and specificity, we are seeking to secure guidelines from the Secretary of State about how such a decision will be made.

This is an important amendment—as they all are—because without that qualification the Secretary of State is able to deem a development not to have a significant effect on the environment, without an effective means of challenge. There could be circumstances where unscheduled works become necessary and the Secretary of State makes a decision that the said works do not have a significant effect on the environment. It is conceivable that there could be significant and substantial opposition to that development within a locality, so we believe that it is an important and necessary step for the Secretary of State to settle guidelines by which such decisions can be judged. The Select Committee process has gone through the environmental concerns for the matters that we know about, but if issues arise at a later date, somebody will undoubtedly come along and complain that the Secretary of State has used the powers as currently described to say that the development that people are complaining about does not have a significant effect on the environment in its size, nature or location. The general public would be more satisfied if they could refer to criteria detailed within guidelines to describe how the Secretary of State arrives at a decision. At the moment, this effectively gives the Minister carte blanche to deem development as not falling within that category.

In the absence of such guidelines, I ask the Minister to describe how these concerns would be addressed. If he concludes with me that there is no satisfactory method of adjudging whether the decision is a sound one, we will decide to press this amendment to a vote. I look forward to the Minister’s comments and explanation.

[Mr Goodwill]

I am happy to take criticism over various aspects of the way that HS2 has been delivered, but not in terms of the way we have addressed the environmental concerns that have been raised up and down the country. We made the point that there will be no net environmental loss in delivering the project, and indeed we have gone far beyond anything required in statute for a major infrastructure project. I spent the best part of an afternoon talking about tree species and how we can take this opportunity to work with those seeking to produce elm trees resistant to Dutch elm disease and ash trees resistant to ash dieback and re-establish those species.

I understand the importance attached to environmental considerations. Whether we are talking about pipistrelle bats, Bechstein’s bats or whatever else, we are aware of our obligations and we have been held to account by many of the environmental groups involved in that area.

[Andy McDonald]

I seem to have inadvertently struck a raw nerve. By no means am I being critical of the environmental assessments to date; I am concerned about the powers that the Secretary of State has for the future. I will not criticise at all the excellent things done in the course of the Select Committee and by the Department, but there needs to be the power and ability to hold someone to account if a decision is made that someone objects to. It is about the future, not what has happened to date.

[Mr Goodwill]

I absolutely understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, so, having set the context, I will proceed to put his mind at rest on the clause. I underline that I am committed to delivering environmental enhancements. Unfortunately, when one delivers such a project, one has to go through land that has some sensitive environmental features, so it is important to mitigate that by putting measures in place on the land that can be acquired for the project and they will be provided.

To put the clause in context, it refers to deemed planning permission, which it provides under part III of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 for carrying out the works authorised by the Bill. Deemed planning permission is granted only for ancillary work in the Bill when the impact of such work is assessed in the environmental statement or when the development is an exempt development in the meaning of the environmental impact assessment regulations. Exempt development includes developments such as defence installations, which are highly unlikely to apply to phase 1, but we have put that measure in for legal completeness. Any work outside those parameters will require separate planning permission.

Subsection (3) introduces schedule 17, which sets out the conditions of deemed planning permission. That includes the requirement for approval from relevant local authorities on specific aspects of design and construction to ensure that local impacts, such as the movement of lorries to and from construction sites, are mitigated appropriately.

I hope to reassure the hon. Gentlemen that the bases he draws my attention to are already covered. The Bill gives permission for ancillary works for which the effects have been reported in the environmental statement and any works that give rise to environmental effects significantly different from those reported in that statement will require separate planning permission. The means of assessing whether an effect is significant are set out in the scope and methodology report that informs the environmental assessment of the Bill. That is not a matter for the Secretary of State’s whim but one that has been addressed and the process is set out in the report, which was subject to consultation with stakeholders during its preparation.

The methodology in the report is based on industry best practice. The Select Committee process has demonstrated that it is sound and it will be the correct methodology for assessing the environmental effects of works through the design and construction of HS2. I hope that that clarification reassures the hon. Gentleman that he can withdraw his amendment.

[Andy McDonald]

It seems to me that the methodology that the Minister refers to could be engrossed into guidelines. I fail to see why a public-facing document cannot set that out. If that is how it currently works, I accept entirely what he says. It is not just a question of nomenclature; it is important that people have a reference that they can turn to and say, “These are the criteria that will be observed.”

I am not sure I am quite there if this is not a document that the public can refer to readily and automatically in the event of a decision being considered. I might have misunderstood—I will happily concede the point if I have—but when I listened to the Minister, I did not get the impression that this was something that would automatically be flagged and would be something to which someone could refer when they were thinking about whether the Secretary of State had made the correct decision or otherwise. I do not know whether the Minister can help me any further with that, but I will be interested to hear what he has to say.

[Mr Goodwill]

I will endeavour to help the hon. Gentleman. The methodology is public, and the way in which the methodology is being applied would be subject to the scrutiny of those who wish to test that the methodology is being applied properly. The project is not being delivered while the environmental non-governmental organisations are looking the other way. This has had intense scrutiny, not only from those who have the interest of the environment at heart, but from those who I suspect are using some of the environmental legislation to try to frustrate the delivery of the Bill. We have people looking for reasons why they could prevent this going forward. That is why we have had to make sure that in terms of the environment every single t has been crossed and every single i dotted.

As I mentioned before, we have been through the hybrid Select Committee stage, where those who may have considered the process to be an inadequate way to deal with the changes could have raised that, but the Select Committee was content that the process would be robust. I hope I have reassured the hon. Gentleman that the methodology, which is public, will be used to determine where the clause would be applied. As I have already said, if anything reported was beyond the environmental effects reported in the environmental statement, that would require a separate planning permission. Of course, planning permissions would be subject to all the environmental and other consultations and challenges that could be made.

I think we are in a good place on this. I do not have any fears that we would be risking some of our environmental delivery on this project by having the clause in the Bill.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister. He has gone all the way to satisfying my concerns. In a nutshell, the methodology contains the guidelines that I have been looking for, so I intend to withdraw the amendment. I simply ask that we be provided with a copy of the document. It speaks to my ignorance rather than my trying to dig deeper into this. I was not aware of the existence of that process and I would be better informed if I had sight of it. It would be churlish of me not to accept that the Minister has satisfied the important intent of the amendment in every respect. Contrary to my initial intentions, I will—

[Mr Goodwill]

Before the hon. Gentleman finishes, I can assure him that I will get the relevant paperwork to him before we reconvene this afternoon, or if not, before our sitting on Thursday.

[Andy McDonald]

On that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Jackie Doyle-Price.)

High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill (Second sitting)

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Andy McDonald]

It is currently estimated that HS2 will be completed and ready for general use by 2026, which is 10 years after the Bill receives Royal Assent, and a five-year extension would take us to 2031, which is surely a more than sufficient amount of time for a planning permission extension. As long as the Government do not anticipate significant delays to the construction of HS2, planning permission being valid for 10 years after Royal Assent, with a potential additional five-year period, would be more than ample and would allay any concerns that the Secretary of State was acquiring an unnecessary power.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

Let me say at the outset that we would never treat the people of this country with disdain. Indeed, the way that this project has been presented and how we have engaged with people, particularly on the line of route, has shown the utmost respect for people’s rights, particularly their property rights.

Clause 21 sets out as a condition of deemed planning permission a time limit of 10 years after Royal Assent within which the authorised works must have commenced. The clause also allows the Secretary of State by order to extend the period by which any work must be commenced. Such an order is to be made by a statutory instrument that is subject to a negative resolution procedure.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough asked, “Why 10 years?” It is important to stress that the maximum period of 10 years would be deployed only in unusual circumstances. We are talking about unforeseen events, and I certainly cannot foresee an event that would delay the project for that long, but the length of any extension would be up to the Secretary of State’s judgment. It is not 10 years or nothing; it is a case of what sort of extension could be chosen. It is a reasonable maximum period of time and it is normal for major infrastructure projects such as phase 1 of HS2.

The current build programme is 10 years, meaning that it is possible, with our current plan, that some of the works included in the Bill will not commence until up to 10 years from Royal Assent. Indeed, specific elements of the project may not be commenced until the very end. One example is the provision of the electricity supply for the trains, which would be one of the last elements to put in place. Another such element is the environmental reinstatement, which would be done right at the end of the project. Indeed, much of the excavated material may take some time to be stabilised before that environmental work can be carried out.

Our promise to provide better rights of way, including cycle paths, as part of HS2 would also form one of the final elements, perhaps meaning that planning consent would be actioned only at the very end of the project. Even a small slippage in time could result in the 10-year period being eaten up. Indeed, some of the work could be carried out once the line is operational. For example, I would expect the environmental work to be going on for quite some time after the line is opened.

The proposal provides flexibility for the programme. While our current plan is for construction to be completed within 10 years, unforeseen events could disrupt the programme. We need to be able to manage such events while still constructing the railway. We will know how much more time we require only at the point of seeking an extension, and any such order will be subject to parliamentary procedure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister talks about things that we cannot anticipate. We know that the unknowns are unknown, so we have to live with that on a daily basis. He describes the provision as presenting a reasonable maximum time; I suggest that it does no such thing. A reasonable maximum means an end point expressed in years, months, hours or minutes. If the provision simply says “extend the period,” there is no delineation of what the maximum may be. I kindly say to him that it cannot be both. In the Minister’s defence, I take the point about the potential run-ons.

The environmental reinstatement issue is perhaps the most valid, but I cannot see that powering electricity to works that have already commenced is a separate development in its own right. The work has already started. It is not a new undertaking or brand-new construction work, so it is something that continues. He also made the acceptable point that some environmental reinstatements may continue when the operation is up and running.

I am also slightly concerned about the Bill containing a power that the Minister says will not be used, which is difficult to reconcile.

[Mr Goodwill]

I was just speculating on what might be the outcome if this clause were not accepted and if the hon. Gentleman’s amendment were to be included in the Bill. We could end up in the situation that we often see with developers, which will build a property up to floor level to action the planning consent and then leave it for a while before the work continues. I would not want to engineer a situation in which aspects of HS2 are commenced merely to action the planning consent, with the land not being developed further until such stage in the project as it becomes necessary. That could mean that those whose land is being given up might find that they have their land for less time before it is taken away from them. That is dangerous if we are not careful. Without this power, we could end up with people having their land taken from them so that work can commence to action the planning consent but then be put on ice until such a time as that work can be completed.

[Andy McDonald]

The Minister almost got me over the line, and then he introduced that new concept. I was about to sit down.

[Mr Goodwill]

I was helping the hon. Gentleman.

[Andy McDonald]

But helping me with that sows seeds of even greater doubt that we might reach the end of a period just to anchor the land and secure the plot. If we get into a situation where that sort of behaviour is taking place with HS2, which is so heavily regulated, it will be a sorry state of affairs. I have sufficient faith in the promoter of the clause to be sure that that sort of activity will not happen, but I can see that he is itching to speak.

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that that would be a sorry state of affairs. The clause means that no one would even be able to contemplate doing so, because an extension could be sought if necessary.

[Andy McDonald]

I am continuing to dig. I will call a draw. Respectfully, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 22

Power to disapply deemed planning permission

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 22 gives the power to disapply deemed planning permission. It allows the Secretary of State, by order, to disapply the planning permission granted by the Bill for maintenance or alteration of phase 1 works that are carried out after a specified date. The clause is intended to relate to works post-construction where it would be disproportionate for the HS2 infrastructure operator to have such broad planning permission.

Once the Secretary of State has disapplied the deemed planning permission, post-construction maintenance and general improvement works on phase 1 of HS2 will be authorised using the normal provisions outlined in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015. It is a standard approach to railway operators, including Network Rail. There is no parliamentary procedure for the order. It is not subject to parliamentary procedure because we are removing a broad power and reverting to the normal planning regime.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23

Parking at Birmingham Interchange: limit on deemed planning permission

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 23, page 11, line 29, at end, insert “where the meaning of the expression ‘short-term’ shall not extend to stays of more than 12 hours”.

Clause 23 allows for the creation of up to 7,500 parking spaces but this limit on spaces does not apply to short-term parking. This amendment defines short-term parking as being parking for a period of 12 hours or less.

We move from planning permissions and extensions thereof to the vexed question of parking in Birmingham, which I am sure everybody has been looking forward to. I think—dare I say it—that we are now back on track with our amendment. When it was initially presented, it may have been slotted in as part of the clause in error. I think I am right in saying that we are now at clause 23, page 11—

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. The purpose of this amendment is to probe and tease out from the Minister exactly how this issue might be addressed. I declare now that I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote. However, I hope that it will elicit further information from the Minister during this discussion. The right hon. Gentleman’s point is valid and indeed there is no such definition, as we currently understand it.

What we are saying, in simple terms, is that in an attempt to go some way towards reducing the need for people to make unnecessary car journeys, and to encourage travellers to use other forms of transport, our amendment seeks to limit the time-limit maximum to 12 hours. That period of 12 hours would be more than sufficient for a traveller to conduct business in another location in the course of a working day, but would hopefully discourage them if their return to Birmingham took more than 12 hours. We address that at line 28, so that the limit of 7,500 car parking spaces that would be set out in clause 23(1) is not exceeded by the provision of short-term car parking for the duration of a stay that is less than 12 hours.

Hopefully, that will go some way towards curtailing the excessive car use that presumably the Government—who are promoting the Bill—wish to avoid. As I said, this is a probing amendment, but it would be appreciated if the Minister could reassure the Committee in as much detail as possible that thorough and comprehensive consideration has been given to how we might minimise the risk of unintended consequences. I hope that the Minister will give some delineation or some guidance as to what is meant by “short-term parking”.

[Mr Goodwill]

I am more than happy to give a little bit more background about our thinking, which the hon. Gentleman is trying to tease out.

My short answer to his questions would be that these issues need to be addressed but probably not for another nine or 10 years, when the project will be on the ground and delivered. As the hon. Gentleman knows, clause 23 specifically relates to parking at Birmingham Interchange and sets limits on deemed planning permission. It limits the application of deemed planning permission under clause 20(1), regarding medium and long-term car parking at Birmingham Interchange, to no more than 7,500 cars and five coaches.

The figures for coaches and cars were based on our assessment of likely parking demand and a traffic assessment in the area, and to allow for expansion or excess demand the figure includes an allowance for flexibility. It was felt that parking is different in nature from operational railway structures, and therefore different controls were needed. Incidentally, other stations along the line of route do not have car parking on this scale and therefore have not been addressed in this way.

Local planning authorities will have controls over the details of the car park. Indeed, subsection (3) states:

“The deemed planning permission under section 20(1) for relevant development is…outline planning permission”

for the purposes, as set out in subsection (4)(b), of:

“the Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure)(England) Order 2015”.

Therefore, as subsection (3) sets out, subsequent approval would be required from the local planning authority in relation to

“access, appearance, landscaping and layout”

of the car parking.

I turn specifically to the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. The clause has been drafted to provide sufficient medium and long-term parking at the station, and to ensure that this parking, which differs from operational railway development, is subject to appropriate planning control. The numbers set out are based on a robust forecast of demand for parking at the station.

The purpose of subsection (4)(c)(i) is to exclude short-term parking from this control as it is part of the operation of the railway. For example, it is used by people being dropped off or people collecting passengers at the station, or parking to do so. This could have been more accurately described as “drop-off” rather than “parking”. Indeed, many stations around the country already have separate provision for short-term parking for people to collect passengers or to drop them off.

We do not think it would be appropriate to amend clause 23, as the commercial strategy for parking at the station has yet to be developed, and the proposed amendment would have the effect of fixing parking arrangements too soon. Also, by defining short-term as being up to 12 hours, the amendment risks removing day-long parking from the control in clause 23, which we do not believe is the intent.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned someone who might want to do business all day in London. It may be that, if he gets a very early train, 12 hours would not be sufficient to complete the return journey, despite the fact that HS2 will be such a fast train. The person visiting Birmingham or London might well have time to have dinner and still get back at their expected time.

As parking strategy is considered by the operator of the car park, I suspect it will be to keep the car park full. The pricing and timings of the parking would be designed to maximise the income and ensure that the provision is taken up to the maximum extent.

The hon. Gentleman talked about whether we might be in danger of creating extra car journeys. If parking were restricted, either by duration or price, many passengers would choose to travel to stations by taxi and, therefore, there would be four car journeys associated with the day trip he referred to, rather than two if the passenger left their car at the station.

Looking at the environmental impact, in 10 or more years from now, we will see much more sustainable vehicles in the national fleet. Even the vehicles operating at the moment, if they get their diesel engines fixed, will work a lot better than at the moment. We have already seen a large take-up in the number of electric cars on our roads. I suspect that will continue to increase.

The hon. Gentleman asked why there were only five coach spaces. From my experience at stations such as York, which I use regularly, one does not see coaches picking up large numbers of people. People going on group holidays might do that but, by and large, one does not see large groups of people travelling by train at the moment. Many people will come to the station by bus and other forms of sustainable transport. If a coach were picking up passengers, the chances are it would be there for only a short time to arrive at the car park and pick up that group.

The mix between coach and car will need to be addressed at the time. That could well be flexible, as it is only a case of painting a few additional white lines on the car park.

The hon. Gentleman said that this was a probing amendment. He raises perfectly valid points but we do not need to rush our fences. They will need to be considered at the point that the car park is put into use by passengers. That may well be before the operation of the railway. If the car park is not used for construction, it may be possible to get income from the car park before the railway is available.

I hope my explanation reassures the hon. Gentleman, and that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Andy McDonald]

I hope the workers will not be charged for working on the site. That would be over the top. I hope they will be able to turn up for work and not think about paying car-parking fees.

[Andy McDonald]

Health workers do but, hopefully, it will not happen on this occasion. Perhaps we can have better practice for HS2. There will undoubtedly be a very large area where they can park their vehicles, so perhaps the Minister could reflect on that.

I understand what the Minister is saying and his clarification is helpful. If I were being unkind I would say that his telling us that we should not insert this provision about short-term car parking in the Bill now prompts the question why the Bill specifies 7,500 car spaces and five spaces for coaches, but I think he has addressed that. I am also grateful that he has made it clear that he contemplates the five parking spaces for coaches for dropping off passengers and not for long-term parking.

As he said, all of that will come out in the wash, but the basic principle of the amendment is to encourage people to use trains and not make unnecessary journeys. He is also right about the 12 hours. People may be able to travel to London, do their business and get back for dinner before they have even set off, it will be so quick; so we look forward to those developments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment, having been satisfied with the Minister’s clarification.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 24

Development consent

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

We now move to clause 24. It is more a clarification of the situation with this railway than a change to it. Clause 24 makes it clear that development consent under the Planning Act 2008 is not required for the authorised works. That Act has specific powers related to the construction of national infrastructure projects such as HS2. As the Bill will provide the powers required to build and maintain phase 1 of HS2, a development consent order is unnecessary. Indeed, given the importance of the HS2 scheme and the requirement to alter existing legislation to allow the expeditious construction, maintenance and operation of the railway, it was decided that for this scheme Parliament should be the authorising body. A hybrid Bill was therefore the most appropriate mechanism.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 24 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 25

Listed buildings

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

I will attempt to be as brief as I was on the previous clause. This is a very important clause relating to listed buildings, a number of which unfortunately are affected by the construction of HS2. Clause 25 introduces schedule 18, which disapplies or modifies controls for listed buildings to allow the construction of phase 1 of HS2 and enable the monitoring and protection of listed buildings. The buildings affected are listed in tables 1 and 2 in schedule 18, and the disapplications or modifications apply only to those buildings. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

The promoter is in the process of agreeing heritage agreements with the relevant local authorities and Historic England. These agreements will put in place an approvals process that will ensure that the works subject to clause 25 and schedule 18 are carried out in an appropriate manner. I stress that we wish to minimise the impact on listed buildings wherever possible; this clause underlines that wish.

[Andy McDonald]

I want to ask for clarification from the Minister. He is absolutely right to highlight the importance of our listed buildings, which are listed because they are treasured and regarded as worthy in cultural or architectural terms. Will the Minister say a little more about how these heritage agreements might preserve the buildings in terms of their make-up? For example, we talked about the ambitions to restore the Euston arch. I think I am right in saying that bits of the Euston arch are scattered to the four winds. Some are in a beck somewhere, some are in a farmyard and others cannot be found. We are going to go through a thoughtful process of how to deal with these listed buildings. What sort of process is in place to try where possible to preserve the elements of a building—as we do with monuments—so that, for example, it can be re-sited somewhere else or otherwise utilised?

[Mr Goodwill]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making those reasonable points. In cases where buildings are being destroyed and demolished in order to build the railway, there are no plans to reconstruct them elsewhere. However, other buildings will be affected by vibration or noise and the aesthetic value of others might be reduced by the proximity of the railway. We are conscious of those problems, and that is why the listed building controls that we are disapplying are done in a sympathetic way. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be reassured that all works will have to be done in accordance with the environmental minimum requirements. The normal requirement to obtain listed building consent will apply to any of these changes. Although we are conscious that these buildings will be affected in a way that, in an ideal world, we would not wish, we are doing everything that can be done to limit the impact and deal with listed buildings sympathetically.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 25 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 18 agreed to.

Clause 26

Ancient monuments

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

In many ways, this clause on ancient monuments is similar to clause 25, which was on listed buildings. Clause 26 introduces schedule 19, which disapplies or modifies controls on ancient monuments to allow the construction of phase 1 of HS2. The schedule allows a person authorised by the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England to enter on to land on which there is a scheduled monument to observe or advise on the carrying out of works to ensure the protection of such monuments. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

The promoter is in the process of agreeing a heritage agreement with Historic England in relation to ancient monuments such as Grim’s ditch in the Chilterns. The agreement will establish an approvals process to ensure that works subject to clause 26 and schedule 19 are carried out appropriately. If the Bill is passed, phase 1 of HS2 will have been approved by Parliament, and parliamentary approval will give all the consent necessary to construct the railway. Those are the powers that are being used in this way. Once again, all works must be done in accordance with the environmental minimum requirements.

[Andy McDonald]

In the same vein, the Minister makes a valid point. It is a bit of an eggs and omelettes situation so far as listed buildings are concerned, but perhaps there is greater scope to preserve ancient monuments or take them to another site. Is he able, now or at a later date, to give detail about how many monuments will be treated in that way? I am sure that it will be considered, given the involvement of Historic England, but has it been identified as a possibility in any particular instance? Could it be rolled out elsewhere?

[Mr Goodwill]

We certainly will be advised by Historic England on how we can address particular instances. Indeed, a heritage agreement will establish a process for approving how works will be carried out, which will include recording the features, protecting those features where they remain in situ but could be affected by the construction, and possibly reusing features. The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the Euston arch, which is no longer an ancient monument or a listed building, as it was destroyed, but he is right that a number of important elements of that structure could be reused. The Secretary of State is keen to reconstruct the Euston arch as a feature of the railway. I wondered whether we could have some sort of hologram instead, but he much prefers bricks, stone and mortar than something a bit more high-tech.

I hope that the Committee will be assured that we are conscious of the need, in the same way as with historic and listed buildings, to protect ancient monuments to ensure that the impact on our heritage, on our countryside and on features that we wish to preserve is at the forefront of our minds. We are working with organisations that are best placed to advise us on how best to do that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 26 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 19 agreed to.

Clause 27

Burial grounds

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause relates to burial grounds, a subject close to my heart, given that I operate a green burial site on my farm and have around 400 people as permanent guests. The clause provides for the disapplication of laws concerning burial grounds and human remains. It also includes schedule 20, which outlines the process that the nominated undertaker—an unfortunate word to use in this regard—must follow in relation to the removal and re-interment or cremation of human remains, and the removal and replacement of monuments to the deceased. I understand that this is a sensitive subject, and that it is not just the railway that presents such issues; many construction projects around the country have unfortunately done so.

The clause disapplies ecclesiastical law for the purpose of construction in phase 1 of HS2. It also disapplies the law relating to burial grounds if the remains and any monument to the deceased have been dealt with in accordance with schedule 20. Similar provisions are included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

Three known burial grounds are affected by phase 1 service works: St James’s Gardens in Euston, St Mary’s Old Church in Stoke Mandeville and Park Street Gardens in Birmingham. In addition to those, four other burial grounds lie above the tunnelled route of HS2 and/or partially within the limits of land to be acquired or used. They are: North Acton cemetery in the London borough of Ealing; the Kensal Green Cemetery of All Souls in the Royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea; St Mary’s Roman Catholic cemetery in the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham; and St Giles’s church in Chalfont St Giles in Chiltern district.

Any human remains affected by phase 1 of HS2 will be treated with dignity, respect and care. Works impacting human remains and associated monuments are an emotive and complex matter, and HS2 Ltd and the promoter recognise their duty to address the concerns of individuals and communities. Two undertakings have been concluded in respect of the treatment of and approach to human remains and monuments, in consultation between the nominated undertaker, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, and the stakeholder, the Archbishops’ Council of the Church of England.

The nominated undertaker is required to develop a burial grounds, human remains and monuments procedure to implement the legal requirements of schedule 20. Where remains are less than 100 years old, schedule 20 requires a notice to be published in the local newspaper and displayed at the burial ground. Relatives have the right to remove and re-inter or cremate the remains themselves at the promoter’s expense.

If Members were part of the all-party parliamentary group on funerals and bereavement, as I am, they would know that this is quite a contentious issue already where municipal cemeteries are reusing land after 80 or 100 years. What is happening with HS2 is not happening in isolation; it is an issue around the country where the operators of burial grounds are reusing land, and it can sometimes be emotive for people whose relatives or friends are buried there.

For the purpose of clause 27 and schedule 20, a monument includes a tombstone or other memorial to the deceased, which includes a monument to one or more deceased persons. If the Bill is passed, phase 1 of HS2 will have been approved by Parliament, and parliamentary approval will therefore give the consent necessary to construct the railway. The limits to the powers in the clause and detailed controls in schedule 20 will apply. I commend clause 27 to the Committee.

[Andy McDonald]

A question occurred to me as the Minister was speaking about monuments. Is it within the contemplation of the promoter that people within a certain period going back will be able to have bodies re-interred and monuments moved? I am just thinking of the historical value of some of the monuments in our cemeteries. Has any thought been given to re-siting those monuments in another place? Those of us who have travelled to Poland with the Holocaust Educational Trust will have seen monuments that were retrieved from where they had been scattered and replaced where they could be given proper respect. Is it within the contemplation of the promoter to undertake that sort of exercise with these burial grounds?

[Mr Goodwill]

This is not a unique situation. As I already mentioned, numerous burial grounds are, unfortunately, being reused for other purposes—sometimes for re-burials. It is right that consideration should be given to how those memorials could be placed in a way that continues to provide a monument to that person. The rules in place for disinterment and reburial or cremation of those remains have been used on a number of occasions and will apply here. It is vital that we proceed in a sympathetic way and do everything possible to inform relatives and friends of people interred in this way. If necessary, I will take a personal interest in ensuring that relatives’ and friends’ views are respected and, where possible, responded to.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 20 agreed to.

Clause 28

Consecrated land

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

On a similar theme, clause 28 applies to consecrated land. It provides that works authorised by the Bill may be carried out on consecrated land without being affected by restrictions and obligations imposed by ecclesiastical or other laws.

I have already mentioned that we have been in close conversation with the Church of England to ensure that it is aware of our intentions. Burial grounds are dealt with separately under schedule 20, which sets out how human remains are to be dealt with. Environmental minimum requirements control how the works are to be carried out. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008.

If the Bill is passed, phase 1 of HS2 will be approved by Parliament, and that will give the necessary consent to construct the railway. As I have said before, protection of consecrated land is provided in schedule 20 and the environmental minimum requirements, as always, will apply.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29

Commons and open spaces

[Andy McDonald]

I beg to move amendment 16, in clause 29, page 12, line 28, at end insert—

“(d) The ownership of any public space which was previously owned by a public body and which is acquired by the nominated undertaker or the Secretary of State for Phase One purposes, and is subsequently returned to use as public space, must be transferred to a public body when that public space is no longer required for Phase One purposes.

“(e) For the purposes of subsection (d), a public body is a local authority, the Greater London Authority, Transport for London or any Metropolitan County Transport Authority.”

This amendment requires the ownership of any public space which was previously owned by a public body and which is acquired by the nominated undertaker or Secretary of State for Phase One purposes, and which is then subsequently returned to use as a public space, to be transferred to a public body when the space is no longer required.

Clause 29 would give the Secretary of State significant and wide-ranging powers over commons and open spaces. The amendment is another attempt from me to put some shackles on the Secretary of State to prevent him or her from overreaching those powers. The clause says:

“No enactment regulating the use of commons, town or village greens, open spaces or allotments, and no enactment specially regulating any land of any of those kinds, prevents or restricts”

the Secretary of State doing all manner of things. That includes

“(a) the doing of anything for Phase One purposes on land held by the Secretary of State or the nominated undertaker for those purposes,

(b) the exercise of any right of entry…or

(c) the doing of anything in exercise of any other power under this Act.”

So the Secretary of State has a pretty free hand to do as he or she pleases. In any other circumstances, there would be chaotic, loud and persistent protests at the infringement of such treasured spaces of public land.

We all recognise that the needs and demands of HS2 change all that. Therefore, the Secretary of State must have these powers. We do not object to that, but we would like to see those powers qualified. We are talking about a modest qualification regarding the return of land to a public authority, keeping that land out of the clutches of any potential private entity. We believe that would be entirely appropriate and welcomed by many people.

--- Later in debate ---

If the Minister can give an assurance that public spaces that are acquired from a public body by the Secretary of State or the nominated undertaker for the purposes of phase 1 will then be returned for use as a public space and transferred to a public body when the space is no longer required, I will be satisfied. I reserve my position, in the hope that the Minister will furnish the Committee with assurances in those respects.

[Mr Goodwill]

May I say at the outset that I intend to satisfy the hon. Gentleman completely? We are both in exact accord on this particular aspect. As he mentioned, Clause 29 refers to commons and open spaces and disapplies existing enactments that regulate the use of commons, town or village greens, open spaces or allotments. HS2 has made a number of commitments with regard to the effects of phase 1 of HS2 on open space, which are binding through the environmental minimum requirements. Where there are effects, we have sought to reach agreement with local authorities on how the effects will be mitigated. For example, commitments have been made to the London Borough of Ealing regarding the provision of new open space to mitigate the partial loss of Cerebos Gardens and to minimise land take from Victoria Gardens during construction.

On the assurance that the hon. Gentleman wishes me to give, let me be clear that as part of the HS2 land disposal policy, any public space acquired for HS2 that is to revert back to a public space and is to be disposed of will be offered to the original owning authority for their first refusal. That was always our intention and I make an absolute commitment that it will be the case. We will have cases in which privately held land is used temporarily during the construction process, and we intend to ensure that the private landowner has first refusal on taking that land back into their ownership.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the Secretary of State has significant and wide-ranging powers, so it is important to look at how the land that we cannot return will be replaced. I have already mentioned a couple of instances. The process has already been subject to the petitioning process and people will have had an opportunity to make their case and the Committee will have responded.

I will go further to suggest that the project will deliver additional public space and access. Some of the areas where we are carrying out environmental mitigation may be areas where we would wish the public to have access. There is a difficult balance to be struck between the needs of a local wildlife group that does not want dog walkers and disturbance to the wildlife in a particular nature conservation area, and the members of the public who probably would not understand how ground-nesting birds and other species could be affected by public access, but I am confident that there will be areas where public access is increased, and that will be to the benefit of everybody.

I cannot stress enough how strongly I absolutely understand what the hon. Gentleman has said. The land will be offered to the original owning authority for first refusal, so I hope his concerns have been allayed.

[Andy McDonald]

I can declare myself fully satisfied, or almost. I have only two issues. The Minister mentioned the instance in Ealing. If I have heard him correctly, that space will be not traded, but exchanged, and will repose in the local ownership of Ealing Borough Council. He has indicated that that is the case. If I have got that wrong, perhaps he will clarify that for me.

On the wider point of a local authority having held property effectively in trust for its citizens, if in the course of the next several years we see the nature, scope and range of local authorities change, and notwithstanding the fact that the original owning local authority may no longer exist as an entity, I assume that the property will be transferred to a similarly constituted successor local authority or other such public authority that would meet the requirements or description of being publicly owned. As we go through the devolution process, we may see increased powers for local boroughs or combined authorities, and the property rights may repose in bodies we have not yet decided on. Is the Minister able to reassure me about that?

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman is right that local government may be reformed. We may see more combined authorities or local authorities merging, or county and borough councils may become unitary in future. I can reassure him that whatever the structure of local government, the land will repose within a local government structure. A local parish or town council might wish to step in and take over the management of the land, which probably makes control of the land closer to the community. He should have no fears that, however local government changes might be enacted in future years, the basis of the clause as it relates to commons and open spaces is fundamental and will not change.

[Andy McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister. Having been fully satisfied, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 30

Trees

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Having looked at historic buildings, historic sites, cemeteries and so on, we now move on to trees, which are every bit as important in terms of the heritage and the value of our countryside. Of course, we feel intensely disappointed when we have to impact upon ancient woodland. Indeed, much of the tunnelling that has been carried out as part of the environmental mitigation of this scheme is to protect ancient woodland.

Clause 30 disapplies protection for trees subject to tree preservation orders or in conservation areas, in relation to work to trees that is required for the purposes of constructing or maintaining phase 1 of HS2. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008, sections 198(1) and 202(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and in regulations made under section 202A of that Act. Section 211 of the Town and Country Planning Act deals with the:

“Preservation of trees in conservation areas”—

and sections of that Act are disapplied.

The clause refers to “tree works”. Perhaps I could clarify that this refers to works consisting of

“the removal, topping or lopping of a tree or the cutting back of the roots”.

Concerns may have been raised—and certainly have been with the environmental groups that I have met—about how we can continue to protect trees, particularly where excavations may affect the roots of trees, for example. I can reassure the Committee that all works must be done in accordance with the environmental minimum requirements. If the Bill is passed, phase 1 will have been approved by Parliament, and therefore the powers there will be the ones that are used to carry out the works to trees.

[Sir Simon Burns]

My hon. Friend’s comments on this very important area are welcome. Could he also share with the Committee the number of new trees that will be planted to make the whole line of route more environmentally friendly? I believe that it is about 2 million.

[Mr Goodwill]

I can certainly confirm that 2 million trees will be planted as part of the mitigation in connection with phase 1 of High Speed 2, which will be a tremendous augmentation of the arboricultural heritage of our country. Indeed, I had a meeting two weeks ago with the Woodland Trust, and we looked at how we can best choose the species of tree that will be introduced as part of this massive planting programme. I have already mentioned the issue of the elm and Dutch elm disease, and the ash and ash dieback.

We are also looking at some of the particularly valuable trees that will be lost. There is a famous pear tree—it was voted tree of the year last year—which unfortunately will be taken out by the scheme. As far as possible, it is our intention to take cuttings from that tree and to nurture them so that we can have a number of examples of that tree which, incidentally, I am told was reaching the end of its natural biological life. Although the tree is being cut down, it is not being cut off in its prime. It is very important that we can ensure that the tree planting that we carry out is sympathetic with the sort of trees that, in some cases, will be removed because of the application of clause 30 to trees in areas affected by the scheme.

The planting of these 2 million trees is part of our wish to ensure that the scheme causes no net environmental loss. So for every tree that unfortunately is removed a number of new trees will be planted, which in the fullness of time will benefit the wider community.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 31

Overhead lines

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

We move from trees to overhead lines, which is not quite as empathetic an area. Clause 31 allows the installation and diversion of overhead lines to be carried out as part of the authorised works and grants the necessary consent for such works. This clause removes the need for the Secretary of State’s consent under the Electricity Act 1989 where the installation of the line is a work authorised by the Bill. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008. I beg to move that clause 31 stand part of the Bill.

[Andy McDonald]

I simply want to raise the issue of the undergrounding of power lines. I know that that has been raised in other places, in particular with regard to areas of natural beauty. This clause speaks to installation and diversion of overhead lines. Will the Minister enlighten the Committee about the extent to which any power lines are going to be put underground?

[Mr Goodwill]

The undergrounding of overhead power lines has been considered for those power lines affected by HS2 works already. It was concluded that it was neither an environmentally or economically beneficial solution. The removal of existing infrastructure anywhere within an area of outstanding natural beauty is not properly a matter for the HS2 Bill. Environmental mitigation and compensation has been provided by the project to compensate for the physical effects of the railway. It should be noted that the National Grid visual impact provision project initiated by Ofgem assessed national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty in England and Wales and reported in November 2014, identifying eight such protected sites where undergrounding might be beneficial. The Chilterns was not selected. I hope that that will clarify that we are not embarking on a widescale undergrounding of power lines as part of this project. We believe that that would go beyond the powers we would need to construct the railway.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 31 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 32

Water

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

We move from electricity to water—I think it is only fire that we have not covered. Clause 32 introduces schedule 21, which provides for the disapplication of certain legislation relating to water abstraction and impounding and other matters related to water and drainage. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008. The clause disapplies various sections of the following Acts: the Water Resources Act 1991, the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, the Water Industry Act 1991 and part 4 of the Eels (England and Wales) Regulations 2009.

Land drainage, flood defence and water resources and fisheries are protected by the provisions included in part 5 of schedule 32, which requires the approval of the appropriate authority, such as the Environment Agency, for specified works that may affect these resources. I hope that the Committee is content that, by disapplying these restrictions on works that can be done in relation to water resources, we are sensibly introducing a provision that was already part of the Crossrail Act 2008, which is a standard provision for projects such as this.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 21 agreed to.

Clause 33

buildings

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

Clause 33 introduces schedules 22 and 23, which make provision for disapplication of certain legislation relating to buildings and party walls. Schedule 22 provides for the disapplication or modification of various provisions of the Building Act 1984 and building regulations. The provisions include drain repairs and disconnections, the raising of chimneys and the construction of cellars and rooms below subsoil water level. Schedule 23 modifies the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. Among the modifications is an amended process for the resolution of disputes. Disputes will be settled by a single arbitrator agreed by both parties or, in default of agreement, appointed by the president of the Institution of Civil Engineers. Either party may appeal to the county court against the award of the arbitrator.

We changed the process for the resolution of disputes because under the 1996 Act disputes are settled by a surveyor appointed by the parties or, failing agreement, by three surveyors. One is appointed by each party, plus a third surveyor appointed by those surveyors. Such surveyors will not necessarily have the specialist expertise required to make determinations about railway infrastructure. Under the Bill, disputes are to be determined by a single surveyor or engineer appointed in default of agreement by the president of the Institution of Civil Engineers. This will ensure that the arbitrator will have the necessary specialist expertise. In addition, the process has been streamlined to secure the speedy determination of disputes. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 33 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill

Schedules 22 and 23 agreed to.

Clause 34

Street works

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

The clause relates to street works and introduces schedule 24, which disapplies various controls relating to works in or near streets and highways. The schedule disapplies sections in the following Acts: the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1970, the Highways Act 1980, the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1986, the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 and the Traffic Management Act 2004.

The controls being disapplied include provisions that would require licence or approval from the relevant highways authority. For example, the need to obtain approval before certain works, such as the erection of scaffolding or the placing of a retaining wall near a highway, has been removed for works authorised by the Bill. A further example is that the power of highways authorities to direct when works that could affect traffic can take place will not apply for the authorised works. I must add that we are at all times engaging with communities and local authorities to ensure that we minimise the impact of our construction. For example, we will look at routes into which lorries can be channelled to minimise the effect.

All works, once again, must be done in accordance with the environmental minimum requirements. The highways authorities have certain protections. There are protective provisions for highways and traffic in part 1 of schedule 32. For example, in exercising the powers under the Bill, the nominated undertaker is required to have regard to the potential disruption of traffic that may be caused and seek to minimise such disruption as far as reasonably practical. I have been involved in negotiations to ensure we can, for example, construct temporary routes so trucks do not have an impact on local communities. We will, as far as possible, use a line of route for transported materials to prevent having an impact on local highways.

The approval of the highways authority is required for bridges carrying a highway over the railway or the railway over a highway, or tunnels within 8 metres of the surface of a carriageway. The nominated undertaker must not alter or disturb any highways authority property without the consent of the authority. They are required to make good or compensate the highways authority for any damage to a highway resulting from the construction of the authorised works. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Andy McDonald]

On the issue of disruption, will the Minister say something about the timing of works in all areas, whether rural or urban? I am thinking particularly about Euston, where people are going to be subjected to very considerable works for a lengthy period of time. Will there be protected periods during which works will not be conducted so that people will be guaranteed some semblance of peace? We may deal with that when we discuss lorries, but will that obtain for the street works?

[Mr Goodwill]

We are in negotiations with local highways authorities along the route to ensure that we minimise the impact on communities as we construct HS2. That might involve restrictions on the times when vehicles may be operated or, indeed, times when construction is not being carried out. We are absolutely sympathetic to the concerns that have been expressed and will ensure that, as far as possible, we can react to them. It is also about looking at the scheduling of the work. It is a difficult conundrum to know whether it is best to do an awful lot of work in a short time to minimise the time taken, or to string out the work over a longer period so that the frequency of trucks and, for example, the amount of disruption and dust is reduced.

Traffic management plans will be consulted on with local authorities, so they will have the opportunity to engage with us. Although we are disapplying some of the legislation, we will certainly be working closely with local authorities to ensure that the work is done as sympathetically as possible. Indeed, in some cases we have purchased properties because they will be unacceptably affected by construction. Although such properties do not need to be demolished for the construction of the railway, we understand that the level of disruption will be such that it would be neither sensible nor reasonable to expect people to remain in them. Of course, when the line is complete we will go to the market with those properties to ensure that the taxpayer gets as much money back as possible. We might even make a profit on some properties during the construction.

[Andy McDonald]

Putting aside the profit-making element of properties sold during the construction, if the Minister turns his attention to the logistics and layout at Euston, he will notice that some of the tower blocks to the north and east of the development will be within metres of the works. Even at this stage, is the Minister involved in any discussions to explore whether additional blocks might be vacated and people offered alternative accommodation? Are people pressing for that? When I visited the area last Friday I was horrified by the proximity of the development to some significant dwellings where people’s lives will undoubtedly be made very difficult indeed.

[Mr Goodwill]

It is certainly the case that, because of the impact of building the railway, we have procured some of the residential properties at Euston that the hon. Gentleman described as tower blocks. We went to look at a specific property with the leader of the council and I was very sympathetic to the concerns that were expressed. There might be an opportunity, perhaps during the periods of the highest construction activity, for people to be temporarily relocated from the relevant side of the building, but we concluded that it would not be in taxpayers’ best interests to procure the entire building and build additional provision for its residents.

Nevertheless, we understand the disruption. Where possible, particularly if, for example, people have disabilities so are in the properties 24/7, we will look at what we can do to try to mitigate any negative effects. HS2 Ltd is in discussions to find out how we can do something to temporarily alleviate such problems, where they exist.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 34 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 24 agreed to.

Clause 35

Noise

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

This follows on neatly from our previous discussion about street works and relates specifically to lorries. Clause 35 introduces schedule 25, which contains provisions relating to the granting of permits for the use of heavy commercial vehicles on roads where there are heavy-lorry restrictions. Similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008. Local authorities have the power to make orders prohibiting and restricting the use of heavy goods vehicles on specified roads. Such an order is enforced in Greater London. Schedule 25 streamlines the process for the use of permits authorising lorries to use restricted roads for the purposes of the construction of phase 1 of HS2.

I can reassure the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, before he jumps up, that the measure will not completely remove the powers of local authorities in that regard. Permits will still be issued by the local authority. Schedule 25 will streamline the process for the issue of permits and includes an appeal procedure to the Secretary of State and an expedited process for the issue of emergency permits.

Part 1 of schedule 31 requires a nominated undertaker to

“have regard to the potential disruption of traffic which may be caused”

and to

“seek to minimise such disruption so far as is reasonably practicable.”

In addition, those matters are covered in the environmental minimum requirements and the highways sub-forum, a group of the relevant local highway authorities chaired by HS2 Ltd.

Incidentally, this morning we discussed the availability of the scope and methodology report, which the hon. Gentleman said he would like to see. I have brought him a copy of that weighty tome, which I hope will be his bedtime reading this evening. The report contains a number of the reassurances he sought. In terms of environmental mitigation, we are on top of everything and are ensuring that we recognise the impact this project will have on people. Where things can be done to limit that impact, they will be done.

[Andy McDonald]

Briefly, I want to return to the issue of the transporting of goods by lorries. The Minister will be aware that one of the most significant concerns of the people of Camden is the extra loading that will fall on to the roads around Euston station during construction. Can he give further detail about the commitment being made to transport and transfer out of the construction site as much of the goods and the spoil as possible by rail, as opposed to road? That, in itself, will be one of the most significant ways to mitigate the impact on the residents of Camden. If he will say something about that, I shall be extremely grateful.

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman talks about excavated material. Material from the tunnelling process—the majority of the line from Euston to Old Oak Common is a tunnel—will be transported out to the end of the tunnel; it will not be put on lorries at Euston and transported around there. We have a lot of experience of that in this country. We have, for example, the Queen Elizabeth line. We have a number of major projects being delivered from a transport infrastructure and housing and office point of view in London, so we have some experience of how to limit and mitigate the impacts of traffic.

As the Minister responsible for cycling, I am also aware of the risks caused to pedestrians and cyclists by tipper trucks. A number of accidents have happened where vehicles are turning left and cyclists have found themselves on the inside. The codes of practice that we have previously used will, I am sure, be used by the construction industry as it delivers the project, to ensure that we minimise that risk.

I understand that the hon. Gentleman proposes a new clause later in the Bill with regard to transporting material by rail. We can discuss that subject in more detail when we debate that new clause. I understand his concern to limit, where possible, the amount of material transported by road. When we have to transport goods and material by road, we must ensure that we do so in the way that is most sympathetic to the community, working with the local authority and, as we saw last week in Camden, having a location where people can go to get information about the sequencing of work. They will then know which roads might be closed or particularly used for trucks, so that they can plan their lives around that.

We are very conscious of the impact that this project will have during construction, but we are also very conscious of the long-term benefits for the Camden area in general and Euston in particular of the delivery of this transformational project, which will make Euston every bit as much a totemic station as King’s Cross and others around the country.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 35 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 25 agreed to.

Clause 36

Noise

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Goodwill]

A theme is developing for what we are doing to limit, mitigate and manage the disruption for people in the areas in which construction is taking place. We are talking about not only the urban environment in Camden, but the rural locations where many people regard the peace and tranquillity of their area as central to their ability to enjoy their homes and community.

The clause introduces schedule 26, which modifies existing legislation on construction noise, giving a defence to the nominated undertaker against statutory nuisance claims in respect of works carried out in phase 1 of HS2. Unsurprisingly, similar provisions were included in the Crossrail Act 2008. Appeals against either the service by a local authority of a notice imposing noise requirements, or a local authority’s refusal to give consent under the Control of Pollution Act 1974 will be dealt with differently under the modifications that the schedule makes to noise legislation in respect of phase 1 work. They are to be determined by the Secretary of State or, if the parties agree, by arbitration, rather than in a magistrates court.

A defence is provided for failure to comply with a noise abatement notice in respect of noise caused by the construction, maintenance or operation of phase 1 of HS2 and cannot reasonably be avoided. An order cannot be made by a magistrates court in proceedings for statutory nuisance in respect of noise caused by phase 1 works if the works are being carried out in accordance with a notice or consent issued by the local authority under the 1974 Act, or if the noise cannot reasonably be avoided. In that regard, we are modifying certain sections of the 1974 Act and of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

The reason why we are making the modifications is that, given the scale of HS2 phase 1, it is appropriate for the Secretary of State or an arbitrator to determine appeals against refusal to give consent to work. If local authorities have given consent under the 1974 Act, the works may be carried out without impediment. Again unsurprisingly, all works must be done in accordance with the environmental minimum requirements.

On redress for people disturbed by noise from construction work associated with HS2 phase 1, the Secretary of State will ensure that a construction commissioner is appointed by the time that phase 1 construction begins. If individuals have a complaint during construction that cannot be resolved through the nominated undertaker’s complaints process, they will have the option to refer their complaint to the construction commissioner. Further information on the role of the commissioner is provided in information paper “G3: Construction Commissioner”. I assure the hon. Member for Middlesbrough that, should I still be the Minister at the time, I will take a keen interest in the appointment of someone who will be seen as a champion of the people affected, not as someone on the side of the project. That is important. Similarly, with the HS2 residents’ commissioner, we have a person appointed who will be seen as being on the side of residents and able to further their concerns effectively.

[Andy McDonald]

I thank the Minister for that, because it was extremely helpful, especially when he referred to the commissioner. I hope that later in our sittings we will get the chance to explore the independence of the commissioner in greater detail.

I note what the Minister said that was specific to the Control of Pollution Act 1974, but I wonder whether he shares my concern for the residents of Camden. Areas such as Drummond Street and Cobourg Street, which I had the privilege of visiting a few days ago, are remarkably quiet. There seems to be a misconception that people who live in central London are somehow well used to noise and bustle and therefore cannot be afforded the same sorts of facilities as those who live in quieter, more rural, pastoral circumstances.

Will the Minister give some thought to ensuring that some sort of parity of esteem between urban and rural areas filters through everything done in the name of HS2? There is no justification in my mind for people living in such areas as Cobourg Street—many of them elderly and disabled—having to suffer a level of noise that would not be tolerated under the scheme in rural areas. I do not know whether he can give me any assurances about that, but that is certainly something we are looking for.

[Mr Goodwill]

I am not sure whether I can give the hon. Gentleman any assurances or reassurances, but I can explain why we have a different compensation package for rural areas from the one for urban areas. Although property might be quite a long way from the railway in many rural areas, there may be nothing in between. In urban areas, someone could be 120 metres from the railway, but with two streets of houses in between.

Although the hon. Gentleman was in Drummond Street in Camden on a quiet day, it is a bustling urban environment, and the value of the houses there relates more to the central London location and the easy connections to other parts of the capital, whereas in more rural areas, people might have bought properties for the rural tranquillity. I understand why we need to have different compensation packages in place. I hope he realises that if one lives in a large metropolis, such as our wonderful capital, one does rather expect that there will be a lot of construction going on from time to time. That is not the case in many rural villages, where the green belt would be extended and where there may be areas of outstanding natural beauty, or where there may be conservation areas in the centre of the village. I think we are looking at a different situation, but that said, we do need to ensure that where people’s lives are disrupted, we make efforts to mitigate those effects where we can.

I have already talked about lorries, street works and so on, and we will do everything we can on that, working with local authorities to ensure that we limit the impact on people. As I have said, we have already purchased some properties that, although not required for the project, would be so detrimentally affected by the construction process that we felt it was not fair to allow those people to stay in their houses.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 36 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 26 agreed to.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Jackie Doyle-Price.)

Emergency Tug Vessels (West Coast of Scotland)

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) on securing this debate on the subject of ETVs. Only the Department for Transport could come up with a three-letter acronym for a three-letter word—tug. Let me be clear from the start that I share the hon. Gentleman’s passion for protecting the Scottish coast. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said that I did not care about Scotland. I assure him that Scotland is every bit as much part of my country as is Yorkshire or any other part. I do care for the environment around Scotland and for the welfare of seamen on that part of our seas.

[Mr MacNeil]

I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning me and for giving way, as is the convention in the House. Will we see his concern and his fine words manifested not only in the retention of the ETV in the Northern Isles, but in the return of the ETV to Stornoway, in the Hebrides?

[Mr Goodwill]

Let me develop my argument, and I will return to that point. Scotland is not only a stunning landscape but the home of important industries such as agriculture and fishing, which are economically important to Scotland and the whole United Kingdom. Protecting the environment and safety at sea are our top priorities. The hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber mentioned the Cromarty firth oil transfer licence. Marine Scotland was directly consulted on 10 December, and on 8 February, when the consultation ended, it had not responded. When it was asked whether it intended to respond, the answer was no. I hope that that clarifies that point.

Shipping has a good safety record, but we must guard against complacency, because incidents happen. The last major environmental tragedy to befall the Scottish coast was the loss of the oil tanker Braer in the early ’90s. We are very lucky that because of the seascape, much of the oil was dispersed. As a member of the European Parliament Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety, I, like the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), visited the Galicia area and saw some of the devastation caused to the beaches, the marine environment and the marine ecosystem by the heavy oil. The oil clogged up the beaches, and it was heartbreaking to see the seabirds that were affected by it.

That was 23 years ago, and it is to the credit of the shipping industry and the skills of its seafarers that we have not had an incident on the same scale since. As we have heard, the late Lord Donaldson of Lymington conducted an extensive review of safety after the Braer incident. His report, “Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas”, was published in May 1994. It is easy to select quotes from Lord Donaldson’s excellent report. He recommended that the Government set up a system to ensure that tugs with adequate salvage capacity were available at key points around the UK’s coast. He also said that salvage was, and should remain, a primarily private sector service. That is, of course, what happens around the UK’s coast, with the exception of Scotland. The shipping industry pays directly for towage where it is required, at no cost to the public. Lord Donaldson was equally clear that the costs of pollution prevention should be met by potential polluters rather than by the Government and the public.

[Mr MacNeil]

The Minister’s arguments are all well and good if there are tug boats available to do that work, but what if there are no tug boats available? Where coastal communities and our coastline are at risk, a responsible Government would make sure that that capacity was there where the market and the private sector were failing. The market and the private sector are failing in that on the north and west coast of Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) has secured the debate because of that failure and the lack of those boats.

[Mr Goodwill]

If the hon. Gentleman will relax a little, I will come on to some of those points. He might find that he need not be quite as irate as he is, because I share his concerns.

The world has moved on in the more than 20 years since Lord Donaldson wrote his report, and shipping safety has moved on, too. We have seen the introduction of the new global maritime distress and safety system, electronic charts, bridge watch systems, integrated bridge navigation systems, automatic identification systems, better standards of training for seafarers, improved and more reliable ship propulsion and engine systems, and the international safety management quality code. Those have all added to the tools available to support safer navigation practice.

[Ian Blackford]

I agree with the Minister’s points about the improvements that have taken place, but they would still not prevent things such as the Lysblink Seaways, which ran aground on Ardnamurchan, or indeed the Costa Concordia. That is the point. Even with the improvements that have been made, there is still a risk to our communities from something like that happening —an unexpected happening, such as an oil tanker running aground. This is about how we provide such protection, even with the improvements that have taken place in the shipping industry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman’s point is absolutely valid. I am talking about some of the other vessels that we have been able to remove from around the coast because of other factors.

There is improved automatic monitoring of ship movements from the shore, both by Her Majesty’s Coastguard and by port authorities. That is why we felt it was right in 2011 to decide to withdraw the Government-funded tugs operating in the Dover strait and in the south-west approaches off Falmouth. The savings were substantial. Withdrawing the ETVs elsewhere in the UK saved the public purse approximately £32.5 million over the last spending review period. The ETV based in Orkney in the Northern Isles is funded until 31 March, at a cost of roughly £2 million to £3 million per year.

The availability of commercial tug and salvage operations in such areas persuaded us that it was no longer appropriate for the UK taxpayer to fund that provision. That decision has been borne out by the fact that commercial tows have provided assistance where that has been necessary. However, we recognised that the picture was different on the Scottish coast, where there is a lack of larger commercial tugs. One Government-funded tug has been retained since then, based at Kirkwall in the Orkneys, and can operate both to the north and to the west.

The positioning of the ETV was carefully considered and was based on the density of shipping across the Northern and Western Isles region, notably of tanker vessels; the availability of shelter during inclement weather; and the ready availability of effective logistics support. On balance, the density of shipping, particularly of tanker vessels, carried the greatest weight and predicated the stationing of the tug in and around the Orkney Islands. That provision costs the taxpayer between £2 million and £3 million annually, as I have mentioned.

Since its retention in 2011, the emergency towing vessel Herakles has been used to offer a tow just four times. The tug has been asked to stand by and ready itself for potential towage on other occasions purely as a precautionary measure. At no time has any ship needing a commercial tow failed to secure one, nor has there been any occurrence of pollution within the marine environment through a lack of a timely and effective towing service. It is therefore right that we consider whether it is appropriate for the UK taxpayer to continue to fund that provision. We have not included the provision in our current spending plans.

[Mr MacNeil]

In fairness to the Minister he is genuinely allowing us to have an exchange of views. However, I find his argument akin to saying, “My house was built in 1906 and it has not been on fire since, and therefore I do not need fire insurance for my house.” The reality is—this is the point made by the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber in this debate—that we should have an insurance policy. The Minister is telling me that, no matter the age of my house, I do not need insurance for my house—or, in this case, coastal insurance. In that, the UK Government have been found short and very wanting.

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman is quite correct to raise the issue of risk. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland talked about the MCA looking at all potential risks. Indeed, the risk assessment by the MCA looked at all factors, including mechanical failure, collision risk, traffic volumes and the weather, including the very severe weather that can affect that part of the world. The stakeholder meeting on 10 February scrutinised the risk assessment, and all parties agreed with the assessment, including the fact that risk levels increase without ETV provision. The MCA will carry out further refinement of the risk assessment in the light of stakeholder discussions.

[Ian Blackford]

I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman, who is being very considerate with his time. He is identifying that there is a risk from the removal of the ETV. We already know that a grounding has taken place at Ardnamurchan. We already know that the MCA has referred to the time it took to travel to that vessel. The Orkney vessel cannot provide that degree of protection in a timely manner on the west coast. To give security to our community, we need to retain the insurance cover that many of us have mentioned. We need the vessel in Orkney, but we desperately need the vessel on the west coast. What will the Minister say if we end up with an incident at some point in the future—heaven forbid—if we could have had such an ETV to give us at least a degree of protection. That is the price we are asking the Government to pay tonight.

[Mr Goodwill]

I have made the point that the one vessel we have is best stationed where it is because of the risk and the type of traffic to which it can respond.

We have not made a final decision on whether this provision should continue. I have asked the MCA to consult all interested parties on two questions. First, what is the shared view on the risk of pollution off the coast of Scotland and how has that changed since 2011?

--- Later in debate ---

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Simon Kirby.)

[Mr Goodwill]

The second question is what alternative arrangements are available to maintain an appropriate towage capability that could reduce the burden on the UK taxpayer.

As we have heard, the MCA held its first consultative meeting in Edinburgh on 10 February. It was attended by the agency’s chief executive, Sir Alan Massey, which demonstrates the priority the Government give to this matter. I was delighted to hear that the engagement of stakeholders and interested parties was positive and constructive.

In refining the risk assessment, there are many factors to take into account, including the density of shipping, the variety of cargoes, the size of today’s ships, the scenarios in which ships may get into difficulty and, of course, the picture of available tugs and salvage solutions. The MCA’s officials have gathered a great deal of additional information to add to their understanding of the current risk. It is clear, however, that the overall risk picture is similar to how it looked in 2011, when the decision was taken to retain one Government-funded tug.

[Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)]

I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I have heard the Government talk about risk on so many occasions and it strikes me that they are being very badly briefed, because they do not seem to understand what risk means. At the very simplest, two components are being misunderstood. The first is the probability of an event occurring. To follow what my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said, even if something might happen only once every 50 years, it could happen next week. It does not mean that we will have to wait 50 years for it to occur.

The second point, on which very little has been said, is that we must take account of the nature of the negative outcome. I would argue, as have many people, that because of the nature of shipping today and the types of cargo that are being moved, such as waste, the catastrophic nature of the negative outcome is greater than it would have been 20 or 30 years—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

Order. I know that the hon. Gentleman said that he was not going to make a speech, but if he kept his interventions a bit shorter, we would all be very grateful.

[Mr Goodwill]

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are acutely aware of the risk and the damage that could be caused to the environment or, indeed, the loss of life that could occur if that risk is not correctly assessed and the response correctly put in place.

The meeting on 10 February started to explore whether there might be alternative ways to provide a tug capability. Another meeting with stakeholders is scheduled for Edinburgh on 9 March. We may find that a longer-term solution rests not on one approach, but on a combination of options. I want to give the MCA time and space to work through all reasonable options with the stake- holders to find a longer-term solution. That considered thought and the development of expert advice simply cannot be achieved before the current funding ends on 31 March.

I can therefore announce to the House that I have instructed the MCA to make immediate arrangements to extend the provision of a Government-funded emergency towing vessel to mirror the current arrangement until 30 September this year. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland for making the case for that in such a positive way. The MCA and my Department will find the money for the additional provision from any underspend across our budgets. This is not additional expenditure.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael]

The Minister is to be congratulated on this announcement. It is clearly not the end of the story, but it is a significant act of good faith. I thank him for taking this step this evening. Will he take away from the House the message that came from the stakeholder engagement meeting on 10 February, which was that this work has to be done again and it has to be done properly? The standard and content of the risk assessment is not good enough. He has given us time. Will that time be used to do the work properly?

[Mr Goodwill]

I have already made the point that the level of risk has not changed substantially since previous assessments, but we do need to explore other ways in which that risk could be addressed. The point was made about the availability of tugs because, sadly, of the demise of the North sea oil industry and other areas where we may be able to come up with something more cost-effective.

[Ian Blackford]

We welcome the announcement the Government have made this evening. That is the right thing to do. What I would say to the Minister, however, is that we explained what happened in Ardnamurchan. The ETV cannot get from Orkney in a reasonable time. In the light of the decision the Minister has made this evening and of the risk assessment that must take place, will he revisit the need and desire for a second vessel based in Stornoway to cover the west coast, based on a realistic understanding of risk as outlined by me, my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Roger Mullin) and others? We cannot accept that our communities should be left at risk. This is a small price to pay. We need that insurance policy. I am grateful that the Orkney vessel is being kept on for the next six months, but please let us make sure we get a solution that protects all our communities. That means the re-establishment of a two-vessel solution for the north and the west of Scotland.

[Mr Goodwill]

I certainly hear what the hon. Gentleman says. The provision of the ETV and the steaming times to get to certain locations where it may be needed is something we need to address. I urge all those with an interest to seize the opportunity this extra time brings to work with the MCA to implement a longer term strategy to meet this need. I hope right hon. and hon. Members will give their encouragement for that.

As I have said in response to questions from hon. Members, the Government recognise the importance of ensuring shipping activities off the coast of Scotland remain safe.

[Mr MacNeil]

I am very grateful for the Government U-turn, although it is only for six months. We have concentrated a lot on pollution, but two months ago the cruise ship Star Pride ran aground at 6.15 am on 22 December near Isla de Coiba, Panama. In such a situation many lives are in peril. Luckily, the climate was better there. There is increased cruise traffic off the west coast of Scotland. Where are the tug boats or the security to ensure that such a situation would not turn into a human catastrophe? We talk about environmental catastrophes, but we have to be aware of human catastrophes. The Government are making a U-turn, but I hope that they carry on steaming further south and think of the Hebrides and the west coast too.

[Mr Goodwill]

I have already made it very clear that we have two considerations in terms of the marine environment and pollution, particularly from vessels carrying oil, but there is also the potential loss of life from vessels that cannot receive timely assistance.

I will make a final decision about whether it is right for the UK taxpayer to continue funding the emergency towing vessel provision in the light of the MCA’s advice before the end of September. We look forward to colleagues giving evidence and giving their views on that consideration. I will, of course, be consulting Scottish Ministers on those options before a final decision is made. As I have said, I am happy to meet island councils to hear their ideas for the future. Indeed, I look forward to travelling north, if the diary allows and now there will be a bit more daylight up there, to visit some of the locations and hear at first hand from people on the ground.

Question put and agreed to.

Speed Limits on Roads (Devolved Powers) Bill

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Friday 5th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) proposes giving parish and town councils powers to hold local referendums to determine whether applications for speed limit orders should be made. If the electorate voted in favour, the traffic authority would be required to start proceedings to make the speed limit order.

Moving goods and people around quicker is good for the economy, but speed poses dangers too. In 2013—the most recent year for which we have figures—exceeding the speed limit was a contributory factor in 15% of fatal accidents and travelling too fast for the conditions was a contributory factor in 13%. In addition, where the speed limit was exceeded, there were strong associations with other factors—for example, a stolen vehicle or a vehicle being driven in the course of a crime or where there is impairment by drugs or alcohol.

Setting speed limits at a level appropriate for the road and ensuring compliance with the limits play a key part in ensuring greater safety for all road users. Local authorities are responsible for setting speed limits on their roads, as they have the local knowledge, which makes them the best placed people to do so. While completely sympathising with my hon. Friend’s intentions, therefore, the Government oppose his proposal, because speed limits should be evidence-led and based on road conditions. They should also be considered together with other measures, such as traffic calming, signing, publicity and information. This should lead to a mean traffic speed compliant with the signed limit. To achieve compliance with a new limit, there should be no expectation on the police to provide additional enforcement, unless explicitly agreed.

Local authorities are asked to have regard to the Department for Transport’s speed limit guidance, issued in January 2013, which is designed to ensure that speed limits are appropriately and consistently set while allowing for the flexibility to deal with local needs and conditions. I suspect that many in a community could not take the decisions that a qualified highways engineer at the local highways authority could. I am concerned, therefore, that while local communities feel passionate about these matters, they would not be suitably qualified to make those decisions.

Consultation with those affected is of key importance in the process of making a speed limit order, so local people do have an opportunity to make their views known. In my constituency, in the village of Wykeham, local campaigners alerted local councillors to the need for a particular speed limit, and that speed limit was then put in place. Similarly, in the middle of Scarborough, where a rat run was developing, the same process took place. Local people do, therefore, have an opportunity to have their say. They can sign petitions and lobby their locally elected councillors, who make these decisions.

In some cases, increasing a speed limit can actually contribute to safe roads. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but the previous Government increased the speed limit for heavy goods vehicles on single carriageway roads from 40 mph to 50 mph, and thus lessened the differential between cars, which would travel at 60 mph, and lorries, and that reduced the number of overtaking accidents. That has been in place for some months now, and we have not had any reports of an increased number of accidents.

I completely sympathise with my hon. Friend’s reasons for introducing the Bill, but we do not think it practical to give this power to parish councils, and I invite him to withdraw it.

Cycling: Government Investment

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) on securing this important debate on investment in cycling. Indeed, as part of the Greater Manchester cycle ambition programme, new cycleways are being built in his area: there will be some in Bolton town centre and a route towards Salford along Archer Lane. I also congratulate the hundreds of Twitter users who helped to instigate this debate.

This subject is as close to my heart as it is to the public’s, as I am a self-confessed sprocket head. Indeed, I have made three cycle journeys already today, and before joining the Government I was an active member of the all-party group on cycling. Last week, I spoke in front of that group for an hour, so although my time today is very limited, many of the Members present will have heard what I had to say on that occasion. Also, I was proud to be at last year’s Tour de Yorkshire finish line in Scarborough.

The short answer to the questions asked by the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and the shadow Minister is: yes, we can. But we are of course in an era of devolution of power and budgets. We need to trust the people in the local enterprise partnerships, local authorities and combined authorities to understand the importance of cycling. The evidence so far is that that is working. Indeed, I had a meeting with some LEPs today and made it clear that cycling should be central to some of their work.

The Government want to create a walking and cycling nation, where cycling and walking become the norm for short journeys or as part of a longer journey. Our vision is of streets and public places that support walking and cycling, and a road network where infrastructure for cycling and walking is always being improved. The evidence tells us that more people would cycle if cycling on the road was made safer—incidentally, the risks in London are about the same per kilometre for cycling as they are for walking, but we do not hear people saying, “You must be crazy to walk in London.” The evidence also suggests that the greatest opportunity to increase the levels of cycling in England is to focus investment on providing infrastructure in dense urban environments and towns. Cities that have invested in infrastructure have seen significant increases in cycling.

The cycling and walking investment strategy will go some way to delivering our vision for cycling. In February 2015, the Government introduced through the Infrastructure Act 2015 a duty on the Secretary of State to set a cycling and walking investment strategy in England. Our first publication, “Setting the first Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy”, was published on 17 December 2015. It set out the timescales for publication and our intended structure for the strategy. We aim to consult on a draft first strategy in the spring, with the final strategy published in the summer.

In 2010, under the Labour party, for every person in this country £2 was spent on supporting cycling. Spending on cycling is currently around £6 per person across England and, as we have heard, around £10 per person in London and our eight cycling ambition cities. In future, long-term funding will be available from a wide range of sources, including the new access fund, the integrated transport block, the highways maintenance block and the local growth fund. That means that everywhere that wishes to invest £10 per head will be able to. Local enterprise partnerships are also doing what they can.

In conclusion, the Government understand the importance of a cycling revolution. We absolutely back the Prime Minister in wanting to have that revolution, and we are delivering it with both money and policies.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) on securing the debate. We have had 13 speeches and 16 interventions in an hour.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered Government investment in cycling.

Regional Airports

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on securing this important debate on regional airports and UK airports’ capacity. She has set out a strong case that regional airports are essential, not only for maintaining the UK’s air connectivity, but for jobs and economic regeneration across the country. I understand her frustration that the Government are having to take time to make important decisions, but it is vital that the process is robust, and that all environmental and economic factors are fully considered. I welcome the broad agreement that exists across the political spectrum on the importance of maintaining the UK’s position as a leading global aviation nation, which is vital to the UK economy. This is a timely debate, given the Government’s announcement last December on airport expansion in the south-east.

The Airports Commission set out a convincing case for new runway capacity in the south-east by 2030, which the Government have accepted. The Government also accepted the commission’s final shortlist of three schemes. It is important to get the decision right, so that it will benefit generations to come. That is why we will further consider the environmental impacts and continue to develop the best possible package of measures to mitigate the impacts on local people and the environment. We expect the package of further work to be concluded by summer 2016. Importantly, the timetable set out by the Airports Commission for delivering additional capacity in the south-east by 2030 will not alter.

It is important to remember that the UK continues to have excellent aviation connectivity, both on a point-to-point basis and through the London hub. After all, we have the third largest aviation network in the world after the United States and China. The Civil Aviation Authority’s statistics show that the UK’s regional airports handled around 39% of the UK’s air passenger total in 2014: around 92 million passengers. Services from UK regional airports operated to more than 100 domestic and international destinations, providing convenience and travel opportunities, and helping to reduce the need for air passengers and freight to travel long distances to reach larger airports.

It is heartening to see that many of the airports that were impacted by the economic downturn a few years ago are now, like the economy, seeing real growth again. Manchester airport, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane), is now the UK’s third largest, handling more than 20 million passengers a year. It has the only regular A380 service from a UK airport outside London and its routes are expanding further—Cathay Pacific is operating direct flights to Hong Kong and, starting this June, Hainan Airlines will operate four flights a week to Beijing. Those are the first direct scheduled flights between mainland China and a UK airport outside of London, worth at least £250 million in economic benefits to the UK. Indeed, my big new shiny railway will be coming to Manchester as well as Birmingham airports.

My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) mentioned Birmingham airport, which completed its runway extension in 2014, enabling larger aircraft to fly to more long-haul destinations. That has allowed greater capacity to destinations such as Dubai, Delhi and Amritsar, and some successful charter operations to Beijing. The airport celebrated its most successful year in 2015, handling more than 10 million passengers for the first time. That is not all. Ongoing investment programmes are also under way at other airports such as Edinburgh; Belfast City, which saw 2.7 million passengers last year, an increase of 5.4%; and Belfast International airport, which saw 4.4 million passengers, an increase of 8.9%.

I welcome last month’s announcement that Ryanair is to begin operating a new base at Belfast International from March with flights to Gatwick, and five other routes will follow. In December, I was very happy to announce successful routes under the regional air connectivity fund that allow routes between Carlisle and Belfast City and Londonderry and Dublin.

Like me, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North was able to see at first hand the newly completed redevelopment at Newcastle International airport’s departure lounge when I had the honour to open it formally shortly before Christmas. It is worth mentioning two more bits of good news for the airport: United Airlines has announced it will repeat its non-stop Newcastle to New York Newark service next summer; and Newcastle has been named the UK’s top large airport in a nationwide poll of Which? magazine readers for the third year running.

Within the UK, airlines operate in a competitive commercial environment, and we consider that they are best placed to determine which routes they operate, and from which airports. We know that the commercial aviation market brings many benefits to air passengers. However, the Government also recognise that, because aviation plays an important role in connecting regions, there may be occasions when aid is necessary to protect certain existing air services that may be discontinued or to develop other services to airports where local economic conditions prove unattractive to airlines.

We are conscious of the possible risk of distortion to competition that could be created by Government intervention in the commercial airline market. That is why we have been careful in balancing the commercial imperative with the need to provide support for existing services and for new air routes from some of our smaller airports. Last November, the Chancellor announced that 11 new air routes from smaller UK airports would be supported with around £7 million of start-up aid over the next three financial years. Those routes, one of which will be operated by Links Air between Newcastle and Norwich, will begin operating this spring and will provide domestic links between England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as international connectivity to France, Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland.

The Government have been asked why we cannot acquire or reserve slots at busy UK airports such as Heathrow for domestic services from regional airports, such as those in Northern Ireland. The allocation of slots at EU airports is governed by regulations agreed at European Union level and by associated UK slot regulations. Under the regulations, the process of slot allocation at Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester and other slot co-ordinated airports in the UK is undertaken by an independent slot co-ordinator independently of the Government, the Civil Aviation Authority or other interested parties. The UK Government therefore play no part in the slot allocation process at Heathrow or other co-ordinated airports, and under EU regulations we are legally prevented from intervening in that process.

Unfortunately, time is pressing. I wanted to say a few words about air passenger duty, but no doubt there will be an opportunity in future. Indeed, it is a matter for the Chancellor, so I will come to a conclusion and allow the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North a chance to get the final word.

The Government believe that maintaining the UK’s status as a leading global aviation hub is fundamental to our long-term international competitiveness. We are clear about the economic and connectivity benefits that our regional airports bring to regions, communities and businesses. We have established the right foundations to move forward, gain consensus and secure the benefits that aviation brings for the whole nation.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

I thank Front Benchers for their timely speeches.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

We are determined to achieve the target of 10% biofuel inclusion by 2020 and are working with industry and others to that end.

[Graham Stuart]

There has been a £400 million investment in the Vivergo Fuels plant in my constituency, supporting 4,000 jobs. Does the Minister agree that the most cost-effective way of meeting our transport emissions targets is to increase the share of bioethanol in our petrol?

[Mr Goodwill]

I suppose I should declare an interest, as 100 tonnes of my wheat went to that plant just before Christmas to produce bioethanol. It is important that we work with not only the plant in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but the one on Teesside to ensure that the industry has a sustainable future. We must also look carefully at other knock-on effects that indirect land use change might have, as the decisions we make in Europe can affect habitats in south America or the far east, for example.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that it is absolutely essential that we get on with developing alternative fuels of a variety of kinds to power our vehicles? Without that, the levels of nitrous dioxide are causing permanent health damage to many people in this country. At Tinsley, the local authority in Sheffield has decided to move a school away from the motorway because of the levels of NO₂, but residents are still living there. The city council is responsible for air quality to some degree, but in the end it is down to Government to deal with problems such as air pollution from the motorway. When are they going to act on this?

[Mr Goodwill]

In the wake of the Volkswagen scandal, the Government are acting to ensure that diesel-powered vehicles are meeting their obligations, but our push towards electric vehicles and other novel-fuel vehicles also has a part to play. The Government are determined to improve air quality.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned electric vehicles, because Continental, which is a major player in research and development for electric car drivetrains, making them for many different manufacturers, is based in my constituency. What is the Department doing to encourage the use and development of electric cars?

[Mr Goodwill]

The plug-in car grants have been very successful, and we have seen an increase in the take-up of electric cars. Indeed, I was recently in Milton Keynes opening a facility there to test the drivetrains and motors in electric cars. The UK is taking a lead in this technology, which is being developed here. The Nissan Leaf is a major product produced in the UK to contribute to this market.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

On behalf of SNP Members, I add my thanks and best wishes to the departing staff members and wish them a happy retirement.

Good work needs to be done on new fuels, but there is a glaring omission within the Government’s work just now. Regardless of the current fuel position, there is a need to plan ahead. The Minister will know that Oslo airport has become the world’s first airport to offer sustainable jet biofuel to all airlines, and that Lufthansa Group, SAS and KLM have already signed agreements to buy it. Here, meanwhile, the aviation industry has raised concerns that the industry’s sustainable aviation agenda is not being supported by Government. Will the Minister reconsider his position and include aviation in the renewable transport fuels obligation?

[Mr Goodwill]

In terms of the sustainability of aviation, this is an important year at the International Civil Aviation Organisation, where we should get, I hope, agreement on a market-based mechanism to combat the issue of carbon dioxide. Within the industry, both Virgin and British Airways are working on alternative fuels produced from waste products, which will help with the sustainability of aviation.

[Drew Hendry]

I do not think that anybody, especially in the aviation industry, is persuaded by the tortured explanations that we get on this. The aviation industry tells me that the UK Government are in policy paralysis—they are not dealing with biofuel development and they are not dealing with airport expansion. Will the Minister commit to action on a renewable transport fuels obligation for aviation?

[Mr Goodwill]

That is not the impression I get when I meet representatives of the aviation industry. Indeed, the improvement of sustainable aviation is an industry-led initiative. I repeat that this is a very important year for the world in terms of tackling CO₂ emissions from aviation. We all want to achieve a globally based mechanism, and I am determined to ensure that we play our part in negotiating it.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

I really do need to press the Minister a bit further on this. Recently, British Airways postponed its GreenSky project to establish a facility to produce advanced biofuels for aviation here in the UK. While the issues involved in that are no doubt complex, will the Minister listen to the increasingly widespread warnings from those involved in aviation that inaction and lack of clear policy direction from the Government are holding back the development and use of renewable fuels in aviation, thereby missing opportunities to boost jobs and skills in these technologies and making it more difficult to meet our obligations on carbon and harmful emissions?

[Mr Goodwill]

I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration in wanting to make more progress, but I have to say that there is more than one way of killing a cat. Yes, alternative fuels may have an important role to play, but more importantly—[Interruption.] More importantly, a market-based mechanism will allow other types of technology to be developed which can then be used to offset the emissions from aviation, which will always be dependent on liquid fuels. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

We are grateful to the Minister, who I fear is being accused of what might be called metaphorical inexactitude.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I shared the platform with the Scottish Minister, Keith Brown, at the HS2 supply chain conference on 5 November in Edinburgh. We discussed the benefits that Scotland will get from HS2. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has arranged to meet Keith next week.

[Marion Fellows]

The Minister will recall that he was previously asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) about the potential for increased journey times north of Crewe to Scotland under the current proposals for HS2. At the time, he suggested that upgrades on the line were already under way. Therefore, will he now commit to providing the Scottish Government with a definitive timetable for those upgrades?

[Mr Goodwill]

I can tell the hon. Lady that HS2 will deliver increased benefits to Scotland. From day one, journey times from Glasgow will be reduced from four hours 31 minutes to three hours 56 minutes. Indeed, the full Y network will benefit Scotland to the tune of £3 billion. Interestingly, she does not mention Nicola Sturgeon’s own bullet train, the Glasgow-Edinburgh scheme, which she announced as infrastructure Minister in 2012. It appears that Scotland’s First Minister has now given her bullet train the bullet.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the condition of local roads.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to provide funding for large local transport projects.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

For the avoidance of doubt, I want to put on the record that I have never actually skinned a cat. I have, however, skinned a large number of rabbits and I imagine the principles are the same.

In answer to the question, the Department is providing over £7 billion for the devolved local growth fund, which will fund over 500 local transport projects by 2020-21. This now also includes £475 million for transformational local transport schemes that are too large for the devolved allocations. We will provide further details in the spring.

[Jack Lopresti]

I thank the Secretary of State for meeting me and my hon. Friends the Members for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), for Bath (Ben Howlett) and for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) last week to discuss our campaign for a new junction 18A on the M4. What assessment can the Minister make about the likelihood of the proposed junction? It would support job creation, as well as ensure that reducing traffic congestion in our constituencies actually happens.

[Mr Goodwill]

I have seen examples up and down the country of such road projects unlocking growth and creating jobs in particular areas. I know it was a very fruitful meeting with the Secretary of State, who has asked Highways England to take a close look at this matter.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

The National Infrastructure Commission has called for evidence on future road projects, and one such area is about connecting northern cities. Doncaster and Barnsley have put evidence in to the commission for the trans-Pennine tunnel link. Does the Minister know when the commission will report, and how soon after the report will he have a chance to make up his mind about which projects he will fund?

[Mr Goodwill]

Such decisions will certainly be made more quickly than they were under the previous Labour Government, who did not get round to investing in infrastructure in the way that we have committed to do. The National Infrastructure Commission is looking at big ticket items or major projects that will be transformational for areas, not least in the north of England, and we are determined to push forward with our northern powerhouse project.

[Ben Howlett (Bath) (Con)]

Following on from his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), does the Minister agree that a new junction 18A on the M4 would unlock regional growth and jobs, and enable Bath University to open its new vehicle emission testing plant at Emersons Green, which will help to reduce congestion on the windy, narrow roads in Bath and Bristol?

[Mr Goodwill]

I know that my hon. Friend was at the meeting and made those points to the Secretary of State. It is absolutely vital that we look at how we can unlock growth and jobs through investment in infrastructure, as this Government understand all too well.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Is the Minister able to say whether funding will be available for a very important local transport project, which is to extend the overground line from West Croydon through to Sutton? That would enable passengers who currently have to rely on the shambolic services provided by Southern and Thameslink to use that line instead.

[Mr Goodwill]

We have record investment both in our conventional rail network and high-speed rail and in the strategic road network, and we are also working with local enterprise partnerships and local authorities on their own local schemes. That is just the sort of scheme that we need to look at closely.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

A compelling business case for the third crossing in Lowestoft was submitted to the Minister’s Department just before Christmas. I would be grateful if he advised when a bid can be submitted to the local majors fund so that we can get on and build this bridge and ensure it is completed by 2020.

[Mr Goodwill]

I had the pleasure of visiting my hon. Friend’s constituency to see that particular issue for myself. I will be in a position to make an announcement in due course.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

At the last Transport questions, I asked the Secretary of State if he could look into the issue of excess noise coming from the M60 motorway, which has been made worse as a result of the Denton pinch point scheme. Since then, I have met officers of Highways England on site with the residents. Highways England officers have basically told me that they will not do anything, because the noise affects only eight properties. Will the Minister please meet me to discuss this matter, and will he knock some common sense into Highways England, which, quite frankly, has given me a jobsworth’s answer?

[Mr Goodwill]

I know that particular communities around the country are affected by noise. Mitigation can often be put in place by using better road surfacing materials or noise barriers, and it may well be that something could be done in that area. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman gets in touch with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones)—he has responsibility for roads—who will no doubt be very happy to meet him.

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the effect of disruption to rail lines caused by the recent winter floods on the economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

10. What progress has been made on repairing transport links damaged by flooding in Lancashire.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

This Government are determined to help families and businesses in Lancashire, including those in Rossendale and Darwen. The Department for Transport announced on 27 December 2015 that we will be providing £5 million to Lancashire County Council to help it to prioritise what local highway infrastructure must be repaired following the storms.

[Jake Berry]

I congratulate the Minister and the Department on their response to the floods. Specifically, will he go away and look at the issue of private vehicular bridges crossing rivers in Rossendale and Darwen? I understand that the householders and businesses are liable for them, but in a couple of places they collapsed causing flooding upstream that has caused millions of pounds of damage. It may be that if we can find some money to help them to repair them, it will be a case of a stitch in time saves nine.

[Mr Goodwill]

I will certainly look at that, but the basic principle is that we are not in a position to provide assistance for private infrastructure that is not a public right of way.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I draw the attention of the House to my declarations of interest.

The UK freight sector is absolutely dependent on areas such as Lancashire having good infrastructure. Given that Ministers have come to the House three times in recent memory to say that the storms are unprecedented, they are clearly not unprecedented. What will the Government do to ensure that our national infrastructure, which the freight sector and all of us rely on, has proper resilience and that there are proper plans for rapid repairs where necessary?

[Mr Goodwill]

Certainly the strategic road network has been particularly resilient despite the storms, and Network Rail has been absolutely valiant in fixing problems, particularly as over the Christmas period it was engaged in a massive investment programme to upgrade the service. We must certainly learn lessons. Network Rail is on standby this week in areas where it suspects there may be problems.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Stephen Phillips.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

T8. Is the Secretary of State aware that, back in the 17th century, the port of King’s Lynn was the fourth largest in the country and has been thriving ever since? Now, however, it is under severe threat from a pernicious and job-destroying European port services regulation. What are the Secretary of State and his Ministers going to do to make the EU see sense and withdraw this unwanted regulation?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

I have always made it clear that this regulation is not required to fix a problem in the UK because we already have a competitive port sector with competition between ports. The general approach adopted by Council addressed many of our concerns, particularly the competitive market exemption. What is interesting is that this week, while a number of amendments were passed in the European Parliament’s transport committee, the mandate to go forward into trialogues was not given. At the moment, the regulation has run into the deep sand, and I hope it will remain there.

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)]

St Helens North is in the Mersey travel area, but thousands of my constituents commute outside it to work in Wigan, Warrington and Manchester, which means that they are effectively paying a levy on their journeys. What progress has been made towards a smart ticketing system for the north of England, which would put an end to these increasingly arbitrary travel boundaries?

Cost of Public Transport

Robert Goodwill Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

This is only the third Opposition day debate on transport since 2010. This Government are always keen to debate transport issues in the House, so let us hope that, like London buses, two will come along very soon.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) talked about the importance of aviation. We understand how important that is for remote communities, which is why, for example, we are supporting connections between London and Dundee and London and Newquay. He accused the Government of spending more time opposing the SNP than Labour, so I will move on to the next speaker.

My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) explained how Government investment is delivering for her region and, in particular, the benefits for the Birmingham area from HS2 and the capacity it will deliver.

The hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Jim McMahon), in an excellent maiden speech, paid tribute to his predecessor. He has a track record of delivering locally, which I am sure had a lot to do with his by-election success. He talked about the courage and determination of Oldham folk, a quality shared on both sides of the Pennines, and I am sure that that his sons Jack and Harry will be very proud of their dad today.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Sir Simon Burns) gave us a reality check about the bad old days of British Rail. If Opposition Members were paying attention, they might want to remove their rose-tinted spectacles. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) spoke for hard-pressed commuters and I bet that if he was leading his party today he would not be contemplating nationalising the railways.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) welcomed HS2 and investment in the midland mainline. The hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) highlighted the cost to communities of the Severn crossing. There was a reference in an intervention during her speech to God’s own country, but I thought for a minute it was to God’s own county.

My hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) talked about Leeds, which, as we know, is the biggest European city to have no integrated transport system of its own.

The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) talked about how we should link fare rises to inflation, but I point out that that means inflation plus zero, which the previous Government failed to do. Whichever measure we use, it is important to note that fares will rise more slowly under this Government than wages.

My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), to whom I pay tribute for his work on the Transport Committee, asked a big question that the Opposition need to address, which is how they will pay for all their promises. They could not make that argument in 2015 and I suspect that they will fail again in 2020. He talked about the cost of fares, and the point is often made that fares in Europe are higher than fares here in Britain. I checked out what it would cost my children to return from university for Easter. My daughter, who lives in London, can travel one way from King’s Cross to York for as little as £20 if she decides to depart at 7.08 in the morning, but as she is a student I suspect she will want to travel later. To arrive for lunchtime, she can pay £38 but she gets a discount of one third as she has a student railcard, so she can come to York for £25.10 on the east coast main line, run by Virgin. My son, who is travelling down from Newcastle, can do so for £6.90 or £9.40.

I am not sure whether, just before the election in 2010, the outgoing Chief Secretary to the Treasury was following a tradition or setting a precedent when he left the now-infamous note saying:

“I’m afraid there is no money”.

How refreshingly honest. I thought I would follow suit and on my last day in the Department for Transport, as I packed up my personal effects before leaving to fight the election last year, having paid particular attention to the opinion polls, I concluded that a return to Great Minster House was unlikely, but hoped that my replacement would be cheered by a message. Here it is, in my hand. It reads: “There is money for infrastructure thanks to our long-term economic plan.” I am sure that that is one reason why we have had so few Opposition day debates on transport over the past five and a half years. Ours is a record of delivery compared with 13 years of disappointment under Labour.

The Secretary of State pointed out that electrification under Labour was carried out at less than a snail’s pace, less than 1 mile a year—or, to put it another way, Hornby delivered more electrified rail network in the time Labour was in government. The investment mentioned in my note is being delivered, with 4,000 new carriages, £38.5 billion to improve our railways, £15 billion for a proper multi-annual road investment strategy and £6 billion to address the pothole backlog we inherited. There is also, of course, high-speed rail to free up existing rail capacity for passengers and freight, shrinking the size of our country, running to Manchester and Scotland from day one. Indeed, HS2 will run to Glasgow from day one; Scottish crews will be manning trains in Glasgow from day one.

When I go to Brussels, I realise that it is our franchising model that countries such as Italy and Spain want to emulate, and British train companies are winning franchises in Germany. They can see how the competitive franchise system is delivering better services, new rolling stock, smart ticketing and more user-friendly refunds for delays.

[Dame Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.