Exiting the European Union (Structural and Investment Funds)
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the draft European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 28 January, be approved.
When debating statutory instruments, we normally say how honoured we are to serve before the Chair, whoever he or she may be. This is the first time I have debated a statutory instrument in the Chamber, so I do not know whether I should say it is an honour to do so before you, Mr Speaker. If you took it as read, you would be entitled to do so. [Interruption.] The Opposition Whips are chuntering from a sedentary position, and they do themselves no credit.
Richard Harrington
Indeed so.
In a no-deal situation, this instrument will repeal the European regulations concerning the European structural funds, while ensuring that the funds can continue operating domestically. It will also repeal the regulations on the Cohesion Fund, for which we are not eligible.
The structural funds include the European regional development fund and its cross-border European territorial co-operation component, and the European social fund. The structural funds are shared management funds that support regional investment across the UK, and they are funded via the EU budget, with co-funding provided by project participants. Typical projects include the recently launched advanced engineering research centre in Sheffield, which supports economic development and upskilling in the local economy. Typical cross-border projects under the European territorial co-operation component of the structural funds include the intelligent community energy project on smart energy. Three UK universities and local small businesses are working in collaboration with French research centres and small and medium-sized enterprises to find local solutions to support low-carbon energy systems.
In a no-deal scenario, the United Kingdom is expected to lose access to European funding. To ensure that this regional funding continues in a no-deal scenario, the Government announced in 2016 that they would guarantee funding for structural funds projects signed before we leave the EU—that was extended last July to cover new projects signed after exit until the end of 2020. That guarantee covers UK beneficiaries and, exceptionally, all beneficiaries of the Peace programme in Ireland and Northern Ireland, and Interreg V-A in Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland. This is due to the Government’s continued commitment to support peace and reconciliation in Ireland.
This statutory instrument facilitates the domestic delivery of structural funds in a no-deal scenario. It repeals the European regulations for these funds, as they would become inoperable retained European law and therefore would not work, because the European regulations create a shared management programme between the EU and a member state. Keeping them would create obligations that the managing authorities of the funds could no longer meet after a no-deal exit.
The instrument also ensures that for European regional development fund and European social fund projects started before exit, current fund delivery rules would be upheld through existing funding agreements, without keeping redundant EU regulations. The powers to continue paying project beneficiaries in the UK already exist under our domestic law, so the instrument does not make provision for projects started after exit. Managing authorities for the funds will none the less continue to sign new projects under existing domestic powers and using existing delivery systems, with appropriate simplifications. So the main aim is to provide stability for beneficiaries, and the project rules will continue to be enforced through the same funding agreements. Hon. Members should also note that this instrument ensures that structural funds delivery remains a devolved matter.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I will refrain from asking my hon. Friend’s opinion on a no-deal. Structural funds are there primarily to try to rebalance our economy, through regional investment right across the UK. Whether we are in the EU or out, and whatever state we are in afterwards, does he agree that it is hugely important that we spend a greater proportion of our investment on infrastructure and other economic development in the regions, rather than in the capital?
Richard Harrington
I totally agree with everything my hon. Friend said, other than not asking my views were on no deal. I think he knows those, and I hope most people in the House do.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend just tell us what the dispute resolution procedure is?
Richard Harrington
If my right hon. Friend would bear with me, I will address that later in my remarks—I thought he was going to ask me the same question.
This instrument includes a transitional provision that enables the guarantee to be paid out to bodies involved in a European territorial co-operation programme. The power to fund beneficiaries of cross-border programmes currently comes from European law, and therefore needs to be continued in domestic law through this instrument to protect beneficiaries in a no-deal situation. That will enable the United Kingdom to continue to participate in cross-border European territorial co-operation programmes involving Northern Ireland, Ireland, and Scotland. Those programmes, known as Peace and Interreg V-A, support peace and reconciliation on the island of Ireland.
The EU has made special provisions to enable the United Kingdom to continue in both Peace and Interreg V-A in a no-deal situation, if the United Kingdom continues to pay for its share of those programmes. The transitional powers in this instrument enable the United Kingdom to make such payments to the EU to enable our continued participation in the event of a no-deal. That is consistent with our general commitments to Peace and Interreg V-A. In this arrangement, the European regulations do not need to be retained. The United Kingdom will sign an agreement with the EU to ensure that programme beneficiaries continue to follow relevant rules. The transitional provision to pay the guarantee to European territorial co-operation beneficiaries also ensures that beneficiaries of cross-border programmes other than Peace and Interreg V-A can be paid sums from the guarantee. Specifically, this provision gives Her Majesty’s Government and the devolved Administrations the appropriate powers to ensure that UK partners of such cross-border projects can receive the guarantee through domestic arrangements, to safeguard for all possible no-deal scenarios.
Among such scenarios, the House should note that in a no deal, without further changes to the European Commission’s regulations, UK organisations would be unable to continue in the majority of European territorial co-operation programmes, other than Peace and Interreg V-A, as they would not have third country access to the programmes. This instrument is designed to enable UK partners to access funding in such a scenario. The EU has published a no-deal regulation that would allow the UK to continue participating in EU programmes in the event of no deal until December 2019. However, that would depend on the UK agreeing to continue to contribute to the 2019 budget as if we were a member state. This proposal is subsidiary and without prejudice to the EU’s specific proposal on Peace and Interreg V-A. The Government are currently analysing the Commission’s proposal, but hon. Members should rest assured that this instrument will allow the guarantee on European territorial co-operation programmes to be distributed in any scenario.
Without this statutory instrument, delivery Departments would not have the powers to pay out the guarantee to beneficiaries of European territorial co-operation programmes.
Without legislation, the United Kingdom would not be able to pay for its share of the Peace and Interreg V-A programmes involving Northern Ireland. That would mean we could not take part in these two important programmes, and current beneficiaries of those programmes would be at financial risk.
I mentioned briefly the separate legal provision being made by the EU for the UK to continue to participate in the Peace and Interreg V-A programmes. That provision is intended to enable continued access to the programmes in the event of no-deal, but it does not resolve the problem of payment powers. That is why we need both the EU regulation and this statutory instrument to safeguard these programmes and to ensure the continuation of their benefits.
John Redwood
Before the Minister moves on from the money, will he explain how the money would be calculated, and whether we would have to make a contribution to the administration costs or just to the actual costs of the programme?
Richard Harrington
If I may, Mr Speaker, I will use this opportunity to answer my right hon. Friend’s earlier question about the dispute resolution. Any disputes in relation to how funding is spent are dealt with through the audit and default functions and the provisions set out in the existing funding agreements. As for his second question, I will have to give the matter some thought, as I must confess I do not know the answer. If I do not think of it in the next half an hour or so, I will certainly write to him with the answer on that. My memory is quite good and usually things come back in due course, as I know they do to you, Mr Speaker.
I mentioned that the EU is making separate legal provision for us to continue to participate in the Peace and Interreg V-A programmes. That provision is intended to enable continued access to the programmes in the event of no deal, but it does not resolve the problem of payment powers, which is why we need both the EU regulation and this statutory instrument to safeguard those programmes and to ensure the continuation of their benefits. Not having this instrument in force by exit would also prevent the Government and our devolved Administrations from paying out the guarantee to UK partners of other territorial co-operation programmes, risking their financial viability.
Chris Elmore
I do not think anyone on the Opposition Benches objects to what the Minister is saying. In fact, I am sure that he and I agree about the catastrophe that could be a no deal. Will he care to expand on what would happen with the shared prosperity fund beyond any transition period and beyond any deal? Currently we seem not to know. The Minister is an honourable man, and it would be helpful if he could give the devolved Administrations some reassurances about how the prosperity fund will be managed and what funds will be available to regenerate communities in my constituency.
Richard Harrington
As the hon. Gentleman—who, for the record, is also an honourable man—would expect me to say, that is not actually within the scope of this particular statutory instrument. I know, Mr Speaker, that in this case you do not have to rule on the scope of it, but the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is quite long, so I am happy to discuss it with him outside the Chamber, if that is acceptable to him.
Richard Harrington
I think I got away with that one, Mr Speaker, but I am not sure. [Interruption.] For now, Mr Speaker.
The House should note that this instrument is designed for a no-deal scenario. If there is a deal, the intention is to include a provision in the withdrawal agreement Bill to defer commencement of the regulations until the end of the implementation period. For that reason alone, I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to vote for the EU withdrawal agreement Bill. That deferment would mean that the regulations would come into force at that point, rather than on the date of exit.
In conclusion, in a no-deal scenario this instrument repeals redundant European law while ensuring that regional investment projects previously supported by the EU, including those supporting peace in Northern Ireland, are protected by the funding guarantee. For those reasons, I commend the regulations to the House.
Richard Harrington
Welcome to the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I explained to the Speaker, this is the first SI that I have done in the Chamber, and I had not realised that this would be a general debate on the European Union. Most Members’ views on that subject are quite clear—many of us share the same views, while some of us disagree—but for the purpose of this statutory instrument, I will try to answer some of the questions people asked about the specifics, if that is acceptable to you.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) asked how the funds for the Peace and Interreg V-A programmes would be calculated—those are the funds our country would have to pay to the EU to get back. I can confirm that the UK would pay its full share of the Peace and Interreg V-A programmes, including—this is what he wanted to know—the administrative costs. If he would like further detail, I would be very pleased to try to answer more detailed questions.
I thank the shadow Minister for supporting the gist of the statutory instrument. She asked me quite a lot of questions, which I shall do my best to answer. A lot of them were to do with her views on regional inequality generally, which is slightly wider than the scope of this statutory instrument. However, I must say that I absolutely agree with her, having been brought up myself in the north of England and in a country where government was very centralised.
When I was doing my A-levels, I went to visit—I think this was in her constituency, but it was probably a long time before she was born—[Laughter.] One has to do one’s best to soften up the Opposition a bit, but that was actually true in her case. However, when I was a school student, I went up to visit the local National Economic Development Council, which was an offshoot of the Government. Well-meaning civil servants tried to give people Government money to, basically, invest in companies in the region. We were also shown the devastation caused by the end of mining and other things. That should be very familiar to the hon. Lady, and it is also familiar to me, coming as I do from Yorkshire.
Successive Governments—Labour and Conservative—have tried their best to deal with that issue. In some cases, they did that by pretending that the Government should not have an industrial development policy, which I have no truck with at all. Following that, there was a more centralised approach by the Labour Government, with the best intentions. Then there were different attempts to devolve, either through legislation, as in the case of the Scottish and Welsh authorities, or through regional policy, which I very much support, to try to have local delivery mechanisms. Local mayors are a very good example of that—irrespective of political party, the structure is a very good way to try to address the imbalance—alongside local enterprise partnerships and the northern powerhouse initiative.
The Opposition argue that that is fine, but a lot more money needs to go into the machine in the first place. That is always arguable: Oppositions always say they want to spend more money and Governments of whatever complexion say that they have to find the money from somewhere. Those are well-rehearsed arguments, but I would like to place on record that I fundamentally agree with the point, which was very well made, that devolution and more money to regions are absolutely vital.
The shared prosperity fund will invest in the foundations of productivity, as set out in our industrial strategy, to support people to benefit from economic prosperity. I fully accept that the Opposition and many other hon. Members—not just Members here today—want to know what it will look like. The written ministerial statement in July stated clearly that the fund is designed to tackle inequalities between communities, especially in those parts of the country whose economies are furthest behind. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) argued that case very well. I will address some of his more specific points in a moment, but that point was very well made. The fund is there to invest in the foundations of productivity, which we put in our industrial strategy document: ideas, people, infrastructure, place and a business environment. It will be an integrated, simplified fund that operates throughout the UK, not with centralised decisions.
What are the Government going to do now? I accept the Opposition’s point, but it is always difficult if you are in government. You have to consult everyone and form an actual policy, otherwise one gets criticised—not you, Mr Deputy Speaker; you would not be criticised at all. Unless the Government consult they get criticised, through legal challenges and so on, for not consulting properly. There will be a proper consultation shortly to recognise that there are a lot of interested parties with different opportunities. It will inform our decisions on the composition of the shared prosperity fund, which will be taken at the spending review later this year.
I would like to set the record straight: the shared prosperity fund will respect the devolved settlements. We have made it very clear that we will continue to work in partnership with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the fund works for all places across the Union.
There have been calls for clarity and we are working on that. The Government are holding engagement events with stakeholders from a variety of sectors across the country, including devolved authorities. We have to discuss the lessons of the past and learn from them, as well as potential investment priorities. I believe that next year, when the spending review consultation takes place, we will be able to move a lot more quickly.
The Government have guaranteed funding for all structural fund projects signed before exit in the event of a no deal. The guarantee can also be used to fund projects started after exit. This will protect beneficiaries under the settlement and regional investment will continue as planned.
My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Mr Clarke) has said on a number of occasions, with his usual dignity and tact, that we disagree on certain matters. However, one thing that I absolutely agree on is the way he works so diligently to push the interests of his constituents and the importance of regional plans. He mentioned Mayor Ben Houchen and others. I really think that this is a model for the future. Whatever one’s views on other subjects—again, I apologise for talking about your views, Mr Deputy Speaker—I think everyone agrees that Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland could not have a better Member of Parliament representing its interests. He reiterated the importance of the shared prosperity fund to his constituency.
The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute, the SNP spokesman, also gave his views on Brexit generally. Rather than rehearsing those arguments, I would like to talk specifically on the point he mentioned about why the Government are taking a different approach in this statutory instrument to the agriculture and fishery funds. The European agricultural fund for rural development and the European maritime and fisheries fund share some regulations in common with structural funds, but this SI makes provisions only for the structural funds. There is a separate SI for the agricultural and fisheries funds, which will retain and amend the EU regulations in so far as they apply to those funds. That is why they are being treated differently, unlike the European regional development and the European social funds. He asked why this is happening before the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill. It is because this SI is designed to address structural funds. The DEFRA SI will deal with the agricultural fund, which this is not related to.
Finally, I commend the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) and thank him for his support. He made the excellent point—often not made in this House—that the distribution of funds should come with love as well as money. I am sure that he could be in charge of love in his constituency—actually, I am sure he is doing that very well at the moment. I have tried my best to answer the questions that were asked, and I commend this SI to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 28 January, be approved.
Draft Shipments of Radioactive Substances (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Shipments of Radioactive Substances (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
Usually, for such occasions, Mr Gray, it is written into my speech that it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, but with you it is a real pleasure.
Today, according to the news this morning, MPs are quaffing champagne—we always “quaff” it—on the ski slopes, but here we are not. We have quaffed a few confectionary items, if one can quaff those, but I am in Committee to talk about the draft regulations that were laid before the House on 21 January 2019.
This new draft statutory instrument is being made under powers set out in section 8(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. The regulations will address specific inoperabilities arising from the UK’s withdrawal from the European Atomic Energy Community, which is known more commonly and colloquially as Euratom, and will only come into force on exit day in the event of no deal between the UK and the EU. The draft instrument corrects deficiencies in retained EU law by revoking and replacing Euratom regulation 1493/93 on shipments of radioactive substances between EU member states.
The new draft regulations demonstrate the UK’s continuing commitment to the highest safety standards in radioactive substances’ control. The instrument will apply to the whole of the UK. The regulations will ensure that prior written declarations must continue for shipments of sealed radioactive sources from the EU into the UK in the event of no deal. They will allow the UK’s competent authorities to check that our importers of sealed radioactive sources comply with the requirements for safe storage, use and disposal of sources before shipments are made from the EU to the UK.
The process of advance declarations maintains the oversight of UK authorities with respect to the destinations and recipients of sealed sources that are shipped into the UK. Therefore, in relation to imports, the draft regulations provide continuity for regulators and operators in a no-deal scenario. The instrument will cover the shipment of the sealed radioactive sources from EU member states to importers. For the record, it is important to point out that a “sealed radioactive source” is a radioactive material encapsulated by another material, usually metal, to prevent exposure. In common language, that would be a box—but not just any box.
Sealed radioactive sources are widely used in industry, agriculture and medicine—for example, in special devices to inspect the quality of welds on gas and water pipelines during construction, to kill harmful bacteria in food or cancer cells in medical patients, or to sterilise medical equipment. About 100 businesses in the UK import sealed radioactive substances, and the vast majority of them are in England. The draft regulations do not delay or restrict our ability to import such sources from the EU, as their primary purpose is simply to provide continuity with existing practices.
Following exit, our importers of sealed radioactive sources from the EU will be required, as now, to make prior written declarations to demonstrate that they comply with national requirements for the safe storage, use and disposal of sealed sources before shipments from the EU to the UK can take place. The declaration is sent to the relevant competent authorities in the UK, which will acknowledge receipt, much as they do now. Those authorities are the Office for Nuclear Regulation for nuclear site licences, it being the regulator of such sites; and the different environment agencies for non-nuclear site licences: the Environment Agency in England, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, Natural Resources Wales and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency.
The importer forwards a declaration and acknowledges receipt to the EU-based exporter before the shipment can be made. Declarations can last up to three years and cover more than one shipment, in the same way as under the previous process, and we will continue to recognise all declarations made before exit day following our withdrawal from the EU. Shipments can continue to be made under existing declarations unless and until those declarations reach the end of their life span.
In the event of no deal, as a result of the UK’s no longer being a member state, it will not be possible for the system to continue to operate in exactly the same way, because we will be a third-party state. The instrument will maintain current arrangements in so far as possible, with three areas of operational change. I am sure the shadow Minister will be very interested in those differences, but I have been through them very carefully and I believe they are necessary.
First, the instrument will apply only to imports from the EU into the UK. It will not apply to our exports to the EU, as the Euratom regulation does now, because, unfortunately, it reflects the UK’s position outside the EU. The instrument can cover only the arrival of shipments in the UK, because that would be the only thing within our power in the event of our leaving the European Union without a deal.
Secondly, the obligation for exporters in EU member states to submit a quarterly return of all shipments will no longer apply, because we will not be able to place an obligation on EU exporters to submit such a return to a UK-based competent authority, as the Euratom regulation does.
Thirdly, the instrument places a legal obligation to make a prior written declaration on the UK importer, whereas the Euratom regulation placed a legal obligation to obtain a prior written declaration on the EU exporter. That technical legal change is made for obvious jurisdictional reasons, but it will make no difference to what is required in practice. The practical requirements for obtaining the declaration for UK importers remain the same. The changes do not place any additional practical requirements on industry or regulators.
The shadow Minister normally asks me for an impact assessment. In this case, as the one-off cost to all industry will be between £1,400 and £9,100, the impact will be de minimis and absorbed as part of day-to-day business. It is just about getting used to the new technicalities; the process really is the same.
Richard Harrington
I do not know whether Hansard can indicate that the shadow Minister nodded, but he did. That happens rarely during my speeches, but in this case it did. He may well have denied it, in which case I would have had to set the record straight.
Subject to Parliament’s approval of the draft regulations, guidance on their operation will be published online in March, alongside targeted operator engagement. Officials have engaged with affected operators and stakeholders through a number of forums and channels, including the Environment Agency’s small users liaison group and the radioactive substances policy group. I am pleased to say that the instrument was drafted in collaboration between officials in my Department and those in the devolved Administrations, as well as the different environment agencies and the ONR.
In conclusion, the draft regulations are essential to demonstrate our commitment to the highest safety standards in the area of radioactive substances control and ensure maximum continuity for UK importers.
Dr Whitehead
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but I think the draft regulations are pretty much the last of the various SIs that have been put in place to create a regime in the UK that is as good as the Euratom regime. I did not intend to be quite as kind as this will sound, but I think we have got to a position where pretty much everything is in place. That cannot be said for every area of regulation, but we are almost there as far as the future of Euratom is concerned.
Richard Harrington
I can confirm that this is the last Euratom SI for no deal. As usual, the shadow Minister is very well informed.
Dr Whitehead
There is the small matter of chasing an agreement with Japan, but that is a different matter.
Dr Whitehead
Indeed.
It would be remiss of me not to welcome the fact that we have now got to the final point, and therefore today we do not want to stand in the way of the regulations proceeding. However, I ask the Minister for a brief explanation of one particular aspect, which is bound up to some extent with the fact that, as he said himself, what was previously a two-way process in regulations now becomes a one-way process, because we have no means of forcing anybody in an EU country to make declarations in a way that we might like, and we will therefore record receipt, rather than across the board, as far as exchanges are concerned.
That concerns me to the extent that the Minister has talked this afternoon of sealed sources of radiation. He stated that those are in a special box. They are effectively in a box, but they are sealed, to make what can be highly dangerous radiation not impactful on anybody who is dealing with it. So it will be sealed in metal, or glass, or whatever, to make it non-impactful on the outside.
The current regulations cover a second category—unsealed sources. That does not mean unsealed to the extent that they are on a paper doily laid out for everyone’s approval. The safety of those materials should give cause for concern, but they are not in the same category as the materials that have to be sealed so as not to harm anybody outside. They are called unsealed, but they are still protected, and we ought to know about them as far as possible.
The problem is that previously, the transit of both sealed and unsealed material could be traced one way or another, either through the forms that had to be filled in before material was transported, or they would be subject to a three-monthly report of the transit of all materials, which was held within the EU but available to all member states. Now that will not be available to us any more, so in principle we will have no knowledge of what is happening to the transport, both in and out, of unsealed nuclear material.
I do not wish to hold up this particular SI, but I nevertheless invite the Minister to reflect upon whether, for the longer term, that is an entirely satisfactory way to do things. The explanatory memorandum states that that is not a matter of great consequence, but I would have thought that what happens to the transport of these items is important, so that we do not face a possible future scandal of missing material, or material going to the wrong place or into the wrong hands, or performing the wrong role. We ought to have some known record of what is going on.
I may have misunderstood how this SI will work, and perhaps we will in some way have a record, but on the face of it, it looks as though we will have a record only on the basis of voluntary arrangements by the shippers, and not a definite and certain arrangement for those shipments.
On the overall arrangements for sealed goods, I absolutely agree with the Minister, and I also agree with him that there should not be an impact assessment for this SI, because the same things are going backwards and forwards, and it is not a question of there being any serious changes in procedures; it is just a question of how those procedures are being organised. However, there is a question to be answered about sealed and unsealed materials, and I hope the Minister can answer it in a way that puts my mind at rest about the procedures.
Richard Harrington
I am flattered by the compliments from my two hon. Friends, and by the good grace with which the hon. Member for Southampton, Test has responded throughout the progress of the 2018 Act and the statutory instruments that have followed. Every time, we hope that he will be late so that we can start without him and the illustrious Opposition Whip will have to deal with the issues, but he has never let us down—or at least, he has never let the Opposition Whip down.
The hon. Gentleman’s points are interesting. Being who he is, he will be aware that advance declarations have never applied to unsealed sources, so that is not new.
Dr Whitehead
Just to clarify, that has always been my understanding. It is a question of what goes into the three-monthly declarations from the EU about all transport—unsealed and sealed. That was previously the source from which one could keep a record of what was going on.
Richard Harrington
Perhaps I can answer by saying that that does not pose a concern, because the devolved environmental permitting regime allows the UK environment agencies to require sites that receive sealed and unsealed radioactive sources to record their receipt. Under the EU regulations, as I have explained, the import of unsealed sources was captured only by the quarterly returns. As that is no longer a requirement, unsealed sources are not covered by the regulations, so it is a completely different matter with a completely different system.
To answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds about Sellafield and the Public Accounts Committee report, if he will indulge me, I think it would be better for me to write to him on the subject or for us to meet to discuss it.
Richard Harrington
Thank you very much, Mr Gray. With that, I commend the last statutory instrument on Euratom to the Committee.
Richard Harrington
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for not including him within the bulk of my remarks. To clarify, I think that this might answer his point: the draft regulations are in the event—I hope, the very, very unlikely event—of no deal. The Government’s intention, however—as he and his colleagues would find out were they to vote for the Prime Minister’s withdrawal deal—is to have as close a relationship as possible with Euratom, basically in an agreement as part of the legislation to follow, assuming the Prime Minister’s deal is passed. At that time, I think I would be able to satisfy him—certainly our policy is to do so, and to have a relationship that would replicate so many things in the wonderful relationship we have had as part of Euratom. I hope that will satisfy him for the moment. We are all working on the assumption that the draft regulations—assuming that they are passed by the Committee—will be completely irrelevant and not needed.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
Our modern industrial strategy for our whole country will ensure that the UK remains one of the most competitive locations in the world for manufacturing investment. We are investing over £600 million in the high-value manufacturing Catapult, and up to £167 million in our “Made Smarter” industrial digitalisation programme. I hope and believe that this will help UK manufacturers develop, adopt and exploit new technologies to make us really successful in the future.
Chris Davies
The British soft drinks industry plays a very important part in the manufacturing sector in our country and should really be applauded for the way in which it has adapted to meet the recent sugar tax. With the Government’s announcement that a bottle return scheme will be introduced in the next few years, will my hon. Friend assure the industry and this House that this scheme will be uniform right across the country?
Richard Harrington
Much as I would like to do so, I cannot give my hon. Friend that assurance, because waste and recycling policy is a devolved matter. However, it is our preference that the scheme is UK-wide, and we will really be pushing that with the devolved authorities.
Preet Kaur Gill
The latest monthly figures from the Office for National Statistics reveal that manufacturing output has collapsed into recession territory, with a sixth consecutive month of falling output. As part of that, manufacturing fell 4.9% in the final quarter of last year. Will the Government listen to Labour, trade unions and businesses, and take the threat of a no-deal Brexit off the table to restore manufacturing sector confidence and protect my constituents’ jobs?
Richard Harrington
I agree with the hon. Lady and with the Prime Minister that a hard Brexit without a deal would be a disaster for the economy of this country, and Toyota, Jaguar Land Rover and many people have said how important the just-in-time process is. I hope that the hon. Lady will listen, and that she will vote for the Prime Minister’s deal, which will give the motor and manufacturing industries the transition period they need.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
That is an excellent point from my hon. Friend, as we would expect. Luckily, we are on the case and have the Automotive Council skills working group, with which we are doing our best to deal with the problem that he mentions as a partnership between Government and industry.
Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab)
Draft Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
It is normally said as a formality, but in this case I reiterate what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Having served on Committees under your chairmanship before, I know that we can expect fairness and a sense of justice from you in the Chair. I am sure the shadow Minister agrees.
The draft regulations form an essential part of the Government’s contingency planning to ensure that copyright legislation continues to function appropriately if there is no negotiated agreement on the terms of the UK’s exit from the EU. Copyright law is largely harmonised internationally by a series of multilateral treaties to which the UK and most other countries are party. Those agreements ensure that music, books, art and other copyright works that originate in any treaty country are protected in all others. Fortunately, our membership of those treaties does not depend on our relationship with the EU. As such, regardless of whether a deal is agreed, UK copyright works will continue to receive protection around the world.
However, a body of EU law on copyright goes beyond the provisions of those international agreements. It has further harmonised copyright protection across the EU and has introduced EU-only rights and mechanisms for facilitating the use of copyright content in cross-border services, which includes the sui generis database—in my rather crude legal studies 40 years ago that meant “without categorisation”; I do not suppose the Latin has changed, but I am sure the shadow Minister will correct me if it has. That provides EU-wide protection for EU database creators and the copyright country of origin principle, under which satellite broadcasters that transmit films and other copyright-protected works across the EU need permission from the copyright owner only for the state in which a broadcast originates, rather than every state in which it is received.
A significant proportion of our copyright legislation derives from the EU copyright acquis and therefore includes reference to the EU, the European economic area and member states. Without amendment, many such references would become inappropriate in the event of a no deal, either because they presuppose the UK’s membership of the EU, which will not make sense when we are no longer a member state, or because they implement EU cross-border copyright mechanisms that will become inoperable in a no-deal scenario.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I apologise for being late; some of us were trapped in the Chamber for a statement. Was the point that the Minister is pursuing not at the heart of the controversy and fuss around this statutory instrument in the House of Lords? I wonder if he could let me know.
Richard Harrington
I cannot let the hon. Gentleman know, because I do not think that is the case, but I am sure I will be corrected if it is. Certainly, I have not been informed that the statutory instrument caused a problem in the House of Lords, and I am sure that someone would have told me if it had. Their lordships, particularly certain friends of mine, such as Lord Adonis, do go into great detail on such statutory instruments, so it may well have been one of them. I am afraid I cannot answer the question now, but I will try to answer it by the end of the sitting.
Mr Sheerman
Because I am so popular with the Whips, they have been putting me on a lot of these Committees, so I am gaining some knowledge by experience. It seems that we pitch up to clear these instruments and say that we have given them the seal of parliamentary accountability, but so much of the information about these really complex areas is not here and, often, Ministers do not seem to know what the real impact of the measures will be. As far as I understand it, the implications for intellectual property of coming out of Europe are huge, but I am not getting that picture from the few words I have heard from the Minister.
Richard Harrington
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will hear me out, because I do not think it is as huge as he does. We sometimes disagree on things, but I think it is fair to say that his heart is in the same place as mine. However, if he will hear me out—
Richard Harrington
I could correct that bit about the hon. Member for Huddersfield’s heart if it would pre-empt the hon. Gentleman’s question.
Ian C. Lucas
I would like some clarification about the country of origin principle. Is the Minister saying that if this instrument were to pass, the country of origin principle would apply to the UK as it does now?
Richard Harrington
If the hon. Gentleman will give me a few minutes, I will finish. If he is not satisfied with what I have to say, I will be happy to take his questions.
On the point made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield about this being a controversial SI in the House of Lords, as I thought, it is yet to be debated in the House of Lords. That does not, of course, mean that he will not be right in future, but it has certainly not been debated up until now, so I clarify that for the record.
The SI will preserve, where possible and appropriate, existing arrangements in UK copyright legislation by making minor correcting amendments. The only exception to the principle of continuity arises from our implementation of some of the EU cross-border copyright mechanisms. It is unavoidable that the reciprocal elements of those mechanisms between the EU and the UK will become inoperable in a no-deal scenario, because they depend on reciprocal provisions that only apply between member states. We have therefore considered how best to address our implementation of those mechanisms.
In some cases, it is appropriate to continue to extend the cross-border provisions to the EU on a unilateral basis, because providing continuity in that way would be beneficial to UK consumers or businesses. That is the case for the copyright country of origin principle in satellite broadcasting. In that case, the regulations will support UK consumers and give them continued access to foreign television programmes by not introducing new barriers to broadcasts in the UK. For other mechanisms, doing so would be detrimental to those in the UK. For example, continuing to provide database rights for EU creators without reciprocal action by the EU would put UK businesses at a competitive disadvantage. This instrument restricts those mechanisms to operate on a purely domestic basis or brings them to an end, as appropriate.
Mr Sheerman
On a point of order, Sir Edward. I have been on several Delegated Legislation Committees, and this is the most complex SI I have dealt with. I did not have access to this material before I walked into this room. As a Member of Parliament, I find myself floundering, because it is so highly complex—I speak as someone who has a lot of sons-in-law, one of whom is an intellectual property lawyer, and as someone who has been given a little bit of information about how important this issue is to businesses. Could this meeting be deferred so that we can actually read this stuff? I feel that I am not doing my duty, and you, Sir Edward, are more punctilious than anyone else in the Palace in how you regard parliamentary accountability. I have walked in here on a busy day, after three statements, and I am faced with all this material that I have not had advance notice of and have not had a chance to read. How can I do my job as a Member of Parliament?
The Chair
That is an interesting point of order, but it is not actually a point of order to do with procedure. It is a point of information for the Minister, who can deal with it now if he wishes, because he has the knowledge.
Richard Harrington
I shall do my best. Impact assessments are worked out on what is called the de minimis threshold. That means that if the impact is expected to be less than, from memory, £5 million, there is no need to do an impact assessment. In the judgment of the people who work these things out, it is below that level. That is why there is no separate impact assessment.
Richard Harrington
Yes.
I will continue and then, if this is acceptable, Sir Edward, I can pick up other points after I have finished, if hon. Members feel that I have not covered them. The shadow Minister usually feels that I have not done so.
In support of the instrument, we have published three impact assessments, each of which has been green-rated by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. They correspond to three of the most significant cross-border mechanisms: sui generis database rights, the copyright country of origin principle, and cross-border portability of online content services, which allow EU consumers to access their online streaming or rental services as if they were at home when they visit another member state.
The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the European Statutory Instruments Committee commented that the assessments did not provide sufficient detail on the impact of no deal on UK stakeholders. The reasons for that are the same in each case: the impacts on UK consumers, broadcasters and other stakeholders will result from the UK’s being treated as a third country in a no-deal scenario, not from these regulations, which amend the UK’s portion of the cross-border provisions and will primarily affect EU right holders, consumers and broadcasters.
In line with the “Better regulation framework”, the impact assessments consider the effects of the instrument under consideration and not—this is significant—the impacts that arise from other countries’ legislation, which we cannot avoid in a no-deal situation. However, we recognise that those impacts exist and that UK stakeholders will need to be aware of them. That is why in November 2018 the Government published a long-term economic analysis of the impacts of leaving the EU. We have also published technical notices and detailed guidance on what a no-deal Brexit would mean for copyright and related rights. This gives consumers, right holders, businesses and other organisations the information they need in plain English to make informed preparations for all outcomes.
Richard Harrington
If the hon. Lady does not mind, I will not. I will be finished in literally two minutes.
These regulations will provide certainty, clarity and, as far as possible, continuity for UK businesses, right holders and consumers as we leave the EU. I commend the draft regulations to the House.
Catherine McKinnell
On that point, will the Minister give way before he finishes?
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister rightly says that the information should be available to businesses so that they can prepare for Brexit, whatever the scenario might be. I did not get the exact wording that he used. Are the Government not concerned that, at this stage in proceedings, that luxury will not be available to businesses before the event? How many businesses have the Government consulted on a formal basis in order to arrive at their conclusions on the impact that these changes would have on those businesses?
Richard Harrington
I will do my best to answer those questions. I may have misled the hon. Lady on the impact assessment. I thought she was referring just to the charities. We published three full impact assessments in December 2018, but there was no significant impact on charities, which was the point I think she was making.
Catherine McKinnell
The point I was making is that the explanatory memorandum says that some changes could have an impact on UK businesses, but I went on to note that it says there will be
“no significant impact on charities”.
I am concerned that it has been acknowledged that there will be an impact on businesses. My point relates to our ability to scrutinise that impact, the accessibility of information and the amount of consultation that has taken place in order to be able properly to assess and scrutinise what the impact will be.
Richard Harrington
I now fully understand what the hon. Lady was saying. The Government did not carry out a formal consultation. Given that it was during the negotiations with the European Union on the future trading relationship, it was felt at the time that making everything public would have impaired our ability to do that. However, I can confirm that the Department conducted industry roundtable discussions with individuals from a range of organisations across all sectors. In this sector, that included the Commercial Broadcasters Association, Directors UK, the PRS for Music—the performing rights society—techUK, which represents over 900 technology firms, the Libraries and Archives Copyright Alliance, the British Library, the Publishers Association, the Society of Authors, the Association of Photographers and the Authors Licensing and Collecting Society, among others. In roundtable discussions, the Department talked to and listened to the concerns of stakeholders from right across the affected industries.
Mr Sheerman
Can I have a further intervention? Were any senior figures in the industry involved, such as Richard Branson or the heads of the big conglomerates? There are a number of key players in this area of intellectual property, and it is vital for the vibrancy of our film, television and creative sectors. The Minister and I get on very well and I like him—I do not like all Ministers, but I like this one.
Mr Sheerman
No. The fact of the matter is that I am learning the lessons, Sir Edward. It has been a heavy day and I have been trying to catch up on this as the Minister was speaking.
Mr Sheerman
No, I am not wandering. I have been in so many Delegated Legislation Committees in which I have asked the Minister, “What is the downside of this?” Ministers keep saying to me, “It’s all going to be all right. These few regulations will make it all right,” and then I go out and talk to the industry, which says, “It’s not all right. There’s going to be severe dislocation.” Is the Minister suggesting that participants in those roundtable discussions said, “It’s all right, Minister, wonderful; steady as you go,” or did they have serious reservations about leaving the EU and about the impact on their sector?
Richard Harrington
I can answer that question in the following way. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have a lot of respect for him and that we share many views. I do not know what the views of the stakeholders on leaving the EU were—I imagine they would have thought it detrimental to their businesses, but I was not party to that. Today, we are talking about a specific piece of secondary legislation for the event of crashing out of the EU—a hard Brexit.
I do not know the rank of the people involved, and I cannot say whether Richard Branson was involved. He is offshore and is allowed only 90 days here, so perhaps he was not allowed to come. I cannot comment on that. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that there were proper senior people representing proper companies and proper entities. I do not think that the Department had a plan for only low-level people to attend. I cannot say who was there. I am not withholding information; I am afraid I do not know. Having had more than two years’ experience of the Department, I can say it is fairly thorough in its consultations with stakeholders.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The Minister said that there were no formal consultations as part of the exercise, but there were roundtables with key people from the relevant sectors and businesses. Where is the feedback from the roundtable discussions that took place? I am quickly flicking through the information on the analysis and evidence, and I cannot find it. Will the Minister tell us more about what businesses said during the roundtables so that we can understand what occurred?
Richard Harrington
I must apologise for not sitting down, Sir Edward. I have never had so many interventions in an SI.
Richard Harrington
Yes, it is. The hon. Member for Huddersfield has been to far more than I have.
I hope the shadow Whip will accept that I am not generally one for waffle on this kind of thing. I do not know the answer to his question, but I know that formal minutes were not published because there was a discussion rather than a formal consultation. He does not have a copy of the minutes in his pack because there are not any.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
How were the companies invited to the roundtables? How were they selected?
Richard Harrington
They were selected because the officials concerned understood them to be the main stakeholders in the field. They are experienced at their jobs. As I have said before, I have found the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to have a very good system of consultation.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank the Minister for giving way. He is being very generous. I am here to scrutinise the legislation. Members of the public, businesses and consumers who will be affected will take a great interest in this process, and they will be concerned that the Government are comfortable to proceed with these legislative changes without any formal consultation. It creates the impression that there is an avoidance of democratic scrutiny, which is typical of much of the Brexit legislation passing through Parliament at the moment and is causing concern.
Richard Harrington
I thank the hon. Lady for that contribution. I disagree with her because there has been a fairly thorough informal consultation, although I fully accept that is not the same as a formal consultation. I noticed a look of disdain on the shadow Minister’s face, which his face does not normally give away, but it did in this particular case.
Mr Sheerman
This is a nice intervention in the sense that we are here to learn. That is our job. Sir Edward is the expert on this and people respect his experience. We are trying to do a thorough job. I apologise for pushing the Minister on this, but what he has just described is almost a secret meeting that took no minutes. There was a meeting. We do not know who was there. There is no record of who was there and no record of what was discussed and whether people said, “Steady as you go, mate. Get on with it,” or whether they had severe reservations. The consultation seems a bit strange.
Richard Harrington
There were roundtable discussions, not a formal consultation that was put online. It was a group of stakeholders that the Department thought were the relevant ones. The Department wanted to hear their views and listen to what they had to say, and that is reflected in this no-deal statutory instrument. The point that the hon. Gentleman makes—he usually makes it—is about the view of industry and business on leaving the European Union. In this case, we are talking about a limited amount of what we might call crash-out, emergency, hard-Brexit statutory instruments. No minute was kept because it was not a formal consultation, but roundtables are like that—people raise their views and officials take note of them.
Henry Smith
I am grateful for the Minister’s generosity in giving way. He has used the term “crashing out” twice now. I appreciate that there are a range of opinions across the Committee about the merits or otherwise of Brexit—I see some well-known suspects in the Committee Room, and I think I know the Minister’s view, too. When industry stakeholders were brought in, was their selection conducted with a bias towards “remain” opinions, or was it more random?
Richard Harrington
I do not want to mislead my hon. Friend. I do not know about this specific case, but I could give him other examples in which the Department has consulted with stakeholders. I assure him categorically that their views on Brexit would be the last consideration. The Department is a professional organisation run by very professional civil servants. From a ministerial point of view, I have come across no case in which any Minister would say, “We are having that company in, but not that one.” That would be very improper. I reassure him categorically on that point.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister was the first person to start using extravagant language about crashing out of Europe. Most of us still want to see a harmonious process with a smooth transition out of Europe. His term “crash-out” is extremely worrying for people in the creative industries in this country, many of whom would be deeply disadvantaged by our crashing out of Europe with no protection for their intellectual property or their many years of creative work. The Minister used the words “crash-out”. Were there any people at the roundtable like Sir Bob Geldof, who is a leader in the industry and runs a large number of companies? He would have known what to say. Let’s get him in—let’s talk to Sir Bob! [Interruption.] The Minister thinks I am star-struck because I have mentioned two well known figures, but they are well known figures in the industry. Why were they not consulted?
The Chair
We are going to calm down now. The Minister will bring his remarks to a conclusion, and then we will hear from the Opposition.
Richard Harrington
May I clarify that I should probably not have used that expression? I really meant a hard Brexit or leaving without a deal, but I used a euphemism. I find that Opposition Members—and indeed Government Members—need a little raciness and excitement when debating statutory instruments, so I felt that the expression might have been appropriate. However, it clearly was not, so I apologise to the Chair and the Committee. It was like saying “a rollercoaster” or something like that. Now that I think I have clarified that point, may I finish the point about consultation?
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
I am not so interested in the Minister’s terminology, but I am very interested in the consultation. In asking us to support the draft regulations, he is asking us to take quite a lot on faith. We all remember being told that the Government’s documentation was excruciatingly detailed, but it was subsequently exposed that there was very little detail at all. Opposition Members therefore want a little reassurance about the consultation with the industry, which we recognise is a very important one. On reflection, does the Minister think it would be useful to give us a bit more information about the feedback from the Government’s roundtable discussions, given the huge upheavals in their EU negotiations?
Richard Harrington
I think we have covered the consultation. The hon. Gentleman’s point is that we should have published the response as if it were a formal consultation, but I have accepted that it was not.
I reiterate that the Department hosted a whole series of industry roundtables to discuss no-deal planning generally with publishers, collection management organisations, broadcasters, technology firms, museum archives and educational institutions. During the drafting of the regulations, we listened to the concerns of stake- holders that published their views on the issues and opportunities for IP arising from Brexit, such as the Alliance for Intellectual Property and the British Copyright Council, which are representative bodies that cover a broad range of copyright interests. We also published the technical notices with detailed guidance on what no deal might mean for copyright and regulated rights.
Mr Sheerman
Can I be helpful, as someone who was a Select Committee Chair for 10 years? When we did an inquiry, we put out a call for evidence, which was printed in the papers and shared on social media and so on, so anyone who wanted to give evidence to the Public Accounts Committee or the Education Committee could write in. Was this wider consultation publicised and broadly known about? Were people told about it and could they submit their evidence or signify their interest in the topic? Did the Minister get many responses?
Richard Harrington
I can clarify that it was not like a Select Committee inquiry, which is online and public. This was a series of meetings of stakeholders to talk about the issues, so it is not a fair comparison. I fully accept, however, that in the hon. Gentleman’s opinion, the Department should have held a full public consultation, but for the reasons that I explained before, it did not. We are satisfied with the results, however, and we are happy to stand by the draft regulations.
The Chair
Order. On that point, are the Government ensuring that this information is available now to all Members?
Richard Harrington
My understanding is that it was published in December and therefore is available on the website and through every other form of public means. I do accept that they were not in this room and if they should be, I will ensure in future that they are.
The Chair
I think it is quite important that the Government should ensure that these are available in the room on all occasions. I think it is a fair point.
Richard Harrington
I will clarify the position. I agree with your position, Sir Edward, and I will ensure that in future, if I am involved in statutory instruments, and if the documents are available—as they would be, if they were published in December—they will be available here. I think that is a valid point and I would like to apologise for that.
The Chair
The Government must take this seriously, because in the past the Opposition have moved dilatory motions on this sort of issue. Therefore, the Government must take this sort of thing very seriously indeed.
Richard Harrington
I shall do my best to go through the many points that have been raised. I hope that I can persuade Opposition Members to rethink their objection to the statutory instrument—I very much doubt I can, Sir Edward, but if you will be patient with me, I will do my best. I nearly said “if the court will be patient”, because this is like a courtroom drama, but I know that you are a patient man, Sir Edward. If the Committee will bear with me, I shall do my best.
The shadow Minister raised many points. There was a general one about his concerns. [Interruption.] Perhaps he could listen to what I have to say.
Richard Harrington
It is perfectly okay, but I would like the hon. Gentleman to concentrate on my points, as I did my best to concentrate on his. I hope he will feel that I have answered them properly.
To deal first with the hon. Gentleman’s fundamental concern about the process as a whole, I reiterate our view that the regulations are not intended to make significant changes to existing policy. In line with the powers of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, they aim for continuity as far as possible, and so provide the minimum necessary changes to ensure that our internationally renowned UK copyright legislation continues to function in a no-deal scenario. We have really tried to provide continuity and certainty.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I have a great deal of respect for him, and I do listen to him. The Opposition understand that this series of statutory instruments is about preparing for no deal and trying to avoid disruption. The problem is that the information available to us and the answers we have had from the Minister raise serious questions about whether that is exactly what is happening. That is the heart of the matter.
Richard Harrington
I accept fully that that is the Opposition’s intention, but I felt that I should make it as clear as I can that the regulations are not intended to make any significant change to our existing policy.
The hon. Member for Sefton Central asked whether any rights will be lost in the event of no deal. I can categorically say that they will not. As I said previously, certain reciprocal arrangements that facilitate cross-border use of copyrighted material will end, but that is distinct from the underlying intellectual property rights. I hope that his lawyer of 40 years’ experience will confirm that. Our continued membership of the international treaties on copyright will ensure that UK works will continue to receive protection abroad, while foreign works will continue to be protected in the UK. These changes also ensure that copyright duration will not change for UK rights holders on exit.
The hon. Gentleman also asked what we are doing to support UK broadcasters who are facing the loss of the copyright country of origin principle. It is still our intention to secure an agreement with the EU on our future relationship—I think that is very well known—and as we set out in our White Paper last July, we want any deal to involve the best possible arrangements for the broadcasting sector. If we leave without a deal, broadcasters may face disruption due to the fact that the EU copyright country of origin principle would cease to apply to the UK. We have tried to give broadcasters and other businesses as much information as possible about the implications of no deal by putting this in the technical notices and detailed guidance about what it means for copyright. The UK cannot address that issue unilaterally in a no-deal scenario.
The shadow Minister mentioned the Marrakesh treaty. The UK has implemented the provisions of the treaty in UK law, and they will be retained after exit. Currently, the treaty has effect in the UK due to the EU’s ratification of it in October 2018, and we are on track to ratify it in our own right, but that cannot happen until we leave the EU, because it is an EU competence at the moment. Until we ratify the law, other treaty countries could prevent the cross-border exchange of copies of works in accessible formats in the UK. Our domestic copyright exceptions stemming from the treaty, which provide disabled persons with improved access to copyright-protected works, will not be affected by our departure from the EU.
The shadow Minister asked when we will ratify the Marrakesh treaty. We are on track to do that. It will be literally as soon as possible after exit. Our ratification must then be accepted by the World Intellectual Property Organisation, before we are once again individually treated as a member of the treaty. There will be a delay between exit and the acceptance of our ratification in a no-deal scenario. We are doing our absolute best to ensure that it will be as short as possible.
On the impact assessments, the hon. Member for Sefton Central asked why we did not consider wider impacts. The impact assessments that accompany the instrument describe in detail the effect of introducing the regulations relative to the pre-exit status quo. That is in line with the “Better regulation framework” and HM Treasury’s Green Book guidance. They are not intended to analyse the impact of no deal more broadly, such as the effect of the EU cross-border copyright mechanism ceasing to apply to the UK. Those impacts arise from the fact that the EU will treat the UK as a third country in a no-deal scenario and will happen regardless of whether this instrument is made. We considered the wider impacts of our exit from the EU in a long-term economic analysis published last November.
The shadow Minister asked why the Government are using secondary legislation for EU exit. This matter has been discussed widely in relation to many statutory instruments, but fundamentally, using primary legislation is inappropriate for the large number of mechanistic changes that are needed. It is normal to use secondary legislation in these circumstances. Furthermore, the changes are dependent on the outcome of the negotiations. This method was heavily debated and agreed to by both Houses during the passage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act last year. It would not be practical to make all the required legislative changes through primary legislation. However, I reiterate that these changes do not include major policy changes or decisions on policy.
We are very pleased to have—and we do accept—recommendations from the sifting Committee, on which the hon. Member for Wrexham serves, to ensure that sufficient scrutiny is in place for the secondary legislation made under the principal powers in the Act. I accept what the shadow Minister said about not regarding this as enough scrutiny, but we did accept straightaway the recommendations of that Committee.
The shadow Minister asked what the effect will be on UK consumers. The EU portability regulation works by reciprocal application of cross-border rules. It will not cover UK-EU travel in the event of no deal, and we cannot replicate the effects of existing arrangements on a unilateral basis. It is true that UK consumers may see changes to their content services when they visit the EU, but the law will merely revert to its pre-April 2018 status quo.
The shadow Minister asked why the UK is unilaterally applying the country of origin principle for EU satellite broadcasters. The proposed plan is consistent with how UK legislation already treats satellite broadcasters from outside the EU. Continuing to apply the country of origin principle in this way will support UK consumers’ continued access to foreign television programming, because it is not introducing new and unnecessary burdens on broadcasts to the UK. I am sure that the businesses to which the shadow Minister refers will be very pleased about that.
The hon. Member for Wrexham continued that theme and asked why we give unilateral effect to certain mechanisms. It is unavoidable that some cross-border arrangements will apply. In some cases, we will apply these arrangements to the EU on a unilateral basis. That does not mean that we will unilaterally implement EU law; we will just provide continuity where we feel that it is appropriate.
I have done my absolute best to answer the questions raised. As I said in my opening speech, this statutory instrument is essential in preparing our copyright legislation for a no-deal scenario. I therefore commend the regulations to the Committee.
Question put.
Draft Recognition of Professional Qualifications (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Recognition of Professional Qualifications (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Before your elevation, Sir Gary, I used to say that it was an honour to serve under your chairmanship; now, I can say that it is an extreme honour.
The purpose of the regulations is to ensure that, in the event of the UK exiting the European Union without a withdrawal agreement, the system for the recognition of European economic area and Swiss professional qualifications in the UK, for the purpose of access to regulated professions, continues to function effectively, and that existing recognition decisions for EEA and Swiss professionals remain valid.
The effect is to create a system that retains the best aspects of the current system while providing regulators with more freedom to rigorously check the standard of qualifications prior to granting access to a profession. The regulations will provide certainty to individuals with recognised EU professional qualifications already working in the UK, and the businesses and public sector organisations employing them. For example, that includes approximately 32,000 secondary school teachers who have had their qualification recognised in the UK in the 10 years from 2008 to the end of 2017. Furthermore, this statutory instrument will ensure that the future supply of professionals into the UK in certain key sectors can be maintained. It makes changes to existing regulations using the powers conferred by section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Before I turn to the detail, I shall provide hon. Members with some relevant background on the 2005 EU directive, which sets out a reciprocal framework of rules for the recognition of professional qualifications across borders. It applies to EU member states, EEA and European Free Trade Association states, and Switzerland by virtue of being annexed to the EEA agreement and Swiss free movement of persons agreement.
The directive provides several routes for recognition of qualifications, including automatic and general systems for the purposes of establishment, and a mechanism for those who want to work on a temporary or occasional basis. The directive covers a large number and wide range of regulated professions, including teachers, lawyers, engineers, underwriters, analytical chemists and a plethora of others. It does not include, I believe, Members of Parliament, as that is not a recognised professional status—perfectly understandably, I might add.
The directive is implemented into UK law by a number of pieces of legislation including the European Union (Recognition of Professional Qualifications) Regulations 2015, the earlier European Communities (Recognition of Professional Qualifications) Regulations 2007 in respect of Switzerland, and a number of pieces of sector-specific legislation for certain professions.
Following our withdrawal from the EU, the directive will no longer apply to the UK and the domestic legislation implementing it would not operate effectively because it would place obligations on UK regulators that they would be unable to fulfil outside the EU, for example, the obligation on regulators under the directive to use the internal market information system—IMI—to process applications and exchange information. As the IMI is a European Commission service, the UK will no longer have access to it after leaving the EU and will not be able to process applications, even unilaterally, using the service. The regulations are therefore necessary to ensure that the domestic legislation underpinning the recognition system operates properly.
Let me set out the effect of the draft regulations in more detail. First, they will protect recognition decisions made before EU exit and will allow applications for recognition made before exit to be concluded after exit under the pre-exit rules, as far as possible. Secondly, they will enable professionals who have started offering services on a temporary or occasional basis before EU exit to complete this service provision. Thirdly, they will enable qualifications to be recognised in the future. The changes that we are making will allow us to retain a version of the general system for recognition, under which UK regulators will be required to recognise EEA and Swiss qualifications of an equivalent standard to UK qualifications in scope, content and level. They will provide certainty to professionals who are already working and living here and will ensure continuity and stability for UK businesses and public services.
Some things will change under the draft regulations, however. First, we are amending the scope of the existing regulations so that the basis of recognition will be determined not by the nationality of the applicant but by where the qualification was obtained, since it will no longer be appropriate to give preferential treatment to EEA and Swiss nationals once the UK is no longer part of the European Union. Secondly, our regulators will not be obliged to offer compensation measures and partial access to professions in circumstances in which EEA and Swiss qualifications are not deemed equivalent to UK qualifications. Thirdly, we are removing the obligation for UK regulators to offer EEA and Swiss professionals a mechanism for providing services on a temporary or occasional basis.
Finally, farriers and certain healthcare professionals, such as physiotherapists, will no longer be in the scope of the amended 2015 regulations; they will be covered instead by related sector-specific legislation. The draft regulations and the amended 2015 regulations do not apply to nurses, midwives, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, architects and veterinary surgeons, who are entitled to automatic recognition on the basis that their qualification meets the EU’s minimum training conditions. The system for the recognition of qualifications in those professions is currently governed by legislation for which other Departments are responsible, and the relevant Ministers are laying their own no-deal statutory instruments to amend legislation accordingly. The European Qualifications (Health and Social Care Professions) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 were considered in a Delegated Legislation Committee last week, for example.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I should declare that I am a qualified chartered accountant and my wife is a pharmacist, so we may both be within the regulated professions.
How reciprocal a process does the Minister envisage? He mentioned that in some professions the UK regulator will have to accept that an overseas qualification is equivalent to a UK qualification. Is it possible that a perverse situation could arise in which we think a Cypriot qualification is okay for practising in the UK, but Cyprus does not agree that a UK qualification is sufficient for practising in Cyprus? Will he therefore encourage regulators to look at whether it works both ways? If we do not get reciprocal access to other markets, perhaps we should not be quite so generous in recognising their qualifications.
The Chair
If the Minister would prefer to reserve his answers to hon. Members’ questions until after the Opposition spokesperson’s speech, he is free to do so, but it is entirely up to him.
Richard Harrington
I am happy to do that, Sir Gary; I think it is probably best.
The draft regulations are vital to maintaining the operability of the framework for recognition of professional qualifications and providing certainty to businesses and professionals. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley is a chartered accountant, not a farrier or a member of any of the other professions outwith the regulations’ scope.
The impact of the draft regulations on businesses and the public sector will be minimal. To answer my hon. Friend’s question, at least in broad terms, we seek to ensure continuity where it makes sense to do so, in order that those who hold European qualifications can continue to come to the UK when they meet our standards and vice versa. Regulators will not need to make significant changes to their current systems. If they wish to do so and have the appropriate powers, they can choose to continue to offer mechanisms for compensation measures, partial access and temporary and occasional service provision; we are merely removing the obligation for them to do so.
I very much look forward to hearing what hon. Members have to say about the proposed changes.
Richard Harrington
There is quite a bit to be going on with; I shall do my best.
First, I must politely not accept the shadow Minister’s view that this is the wrong vehicle for the process. I perceive it as necessary; there are many SIs like it. I accept the hon. Lady’s fundamental point, but on other Committees we have discussed the subject and deem this to be the only available vehicle to achieve our objective which, as she and other speakers mentioned, is to have as much continuity as possible, given that we are leaving the European Union.
I agree entirely with what the shadow Minister said about a hard Brexit—crashing out—causing huge damage to the economy and to living standards, and I hope that she and her colleagues will consider that and vote for the Prime Minister’s deal when it comes back to the House, because most of it is in the areas that she, I and others have talked about. I do not accept the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley that that would be a clean Brexit. I think it would be the dirtiest of Brexits. I am in favour of a clean one: a sensible transition period and then a sensible arrangement, so that for most of the business we do it is business as usual. That is what I call a clean Brexit. On the valid point my hon. Friend made about reciprocal rights, we are unilaterally recognising EEA and Swiss qualifications to mitigate the immediate impact of a no-deal exit, because it ensures the very continuity that anyone would want.
The shadow Minister made some good points about how much this country has benefited from people coming not just from the European Union but from all over the world, and vice versa—many people go to Switzerland and other countries to work, in the way that they should. What we have suggested at least means that we will have a system in place on exit day that recognises professional qualifications and that retains the essential parts of the current situation.
On meetings with the regulators about future recognition processes, I have not met the regulators—I do not want to give the impression that I have—but my officials have met them regularly. We reached the conclusion, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central said, that on the whole, they support the changes. None of them anticipate extensive future burdens on applicants, which would be a very bad part of the system if they were to happen.
That also applies to our engagement with the devolved Administrations through regular meetings. The Department has had technical discussions about the proposed amendments to the regulations and how the policy approach and proposed amendments could have an impact on service provision in the devolved nations. I would not like any Committee member to think that that had been forgotten about or that we were just telling Edinburgh, or anywhere else for that matter, “This is what we are doing.” I hope that that has been fed back to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire, who has excellent connections with the Scottish Government. We have not picked up anything adverse and I am sure she would be the first to bring something to our attention.
On the point about our professionals not automatically being able to work in the EU or EEA afterwards, because obviously we are giving unilateral rights, the European Commission has previously published guidance on that. Decisions made by another EU member state before exit day about the recognition of our professionals will not be affected by our withdrawal from the EU, but the Commission has advised holders of UK qualifications living in the EU to obtain recognition in an EU27 member state before exit. The Commission will ask member states to consider pending applications made by UK nationals before exit day as if we were still a member state.
In a no-deal scenario, the recognition of qualifications will be assessed under host member state rules. In that scenario, after exit day, our nationals will not be able to provide temporary and occasional professional services as they previously could under the directive, but that will be subject to their host members state’s laws and regulatory frameworks.
Chi Onwurah
Just to clarify, given that British citizens living in the European Union will be required to regularise their professional qualifications, does the Minister envisage that there could be circumstances in which they would not be able to continue working without doing so?
Richard Harrington
I envisage that there could be those circumstances, depending on the individual EU member state, as I explained, but I have every reason to believe that there will not be. The only way that that could not happen is for there to be no crashing out and for there to be a proper arrangement, which I am sure everybody wants to be the case. The hon. Lady has made valid point; I would not say it was a ridiculous point.
Dr Whitford
Have British citizens been given the advice that they should apply to have their UK qualification recognised before the end of March to ensure that they do not run into trouble?
Richard Harrington
I am not sure of the answer to that, so I will drop the hon. Lady a note about it tomorrow, if that is acceptable. If she wishes to discuss it further, I would be happy to do so.
Chi Onwurah
It would be desirable if the Minister could ask his officials to look at the potential for those circumstances and the two or three areas that would need to follow, which would be to identify where UK citizens working in the European Union might be and to alert them to that potential, and to do some kind of impact assessment—or at least to write to me to say whether he considers that that needs to be done.
Richard Harrington
An off-the-cuff response—I know one should not give off-the-cuff responses—would be that given the current European Union regulations, and given that there is not a registration procedure at the moment, I do not know how we would know which UK nationals were working abroad. However, that is just an off-the-cuff answer, and the hon. Lady is probably going to tell me that I am completely wrong.
Chi Onwurah
I would never put it quite like that. What I would say is that my concern is not to identify the particular individuals, but the professions and the circumstances in which this situation might occur.
Richard Harrington
I apologise for my misunderstanding. I understand exactly what the hon. Lady is saying, and I will happily clarify that issue for her in the next day or so, if that is acceptable.
Dr Whitford
I totally understand that the whole point of freedom of movement is that we have no idea who is here and who is in Europe, but I suggest that when taking this issue forward, the Minister might consider publicity, whether through social media or alerting British consulates and embassies in the host countries. With so little time to go, it is really important that people are given warning.
Richard Harrington
That is a sensible suggestion. However, all of this information was in the technical notices that were distributed, I think, in October last year, although one might say that people do not read them. There was a lot of information in those notices, but I will look into how we can make sure that there is an easily acceptable and consumer-friendly way of getting that information. I accept that technical notices are somewhat technical, and might be quite dry.
Nick Smith
Does the Minister know, through the various professional organisations that his officials may have been in touch with, how many UK citizens are working as professionals in the European Union at the moment whose role may be affected if we crash out of the EU?
Richard Harrington
I do not know whether my officials have that information, but I will communicate with the hon. Gentleman directly. I must say that he and I are probably quite unique on this Committee in not explaining that we ourselves have professional qualifications. I am certainly in that position, and I might be doing the shadow Whip a disservice, but I think he is in the same boat as me. I have learned a lot about professional services in the course of this SI and others, but I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman’s question. I will make sure that it is answered in the next couple of days.
I have done my best to answer the questions I can, and hon. Members know that I will be very approachable afterwards if they wish to take up some of these issues. With that in mind, I beg the Committee to accept this SI.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Recognition of Professional Qualifications (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Draft Carriage of Dangerous Goods (Amendment) Regulations 2019
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Carriage of Dangerous Goods (Amendment) Regulations 2019.
Good evening, Mr Bailey. This is not the first time that I have served in Committee in front of you, and it has always been a pleasure.
This statutory instrument amends the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2009, which regulate the transport of most dangerous goods in Great Britain by rail, road and inland waterway. The amendments made by this instrument strengthen our emergency preparedness and response arrangements for the transport of radioactive material and will bring Great Britain in line with the highest international safety standards. It implements the emergency preparedness and response requirements of the Euratom basic safety standards directive of 2013.
The instrument also contains provisions unrelated to emergency preparedness and response that were included to avoid the additional burden on parliamentary time of having three separate instruments relating to the transport of dangerous goods. One of these reintroduces provisions on the control of so-called volatile organic compounds resulting from the storage of petrol and its distribution from terminals to service stations. It corrects an unintended revocation of guidance for the design and construction of petrol tanks in respect of the control of such compounds. The other simply updates a cross-reference in the Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and Spent Fuel Regulations 2008.
Before I explain the changes in detail, it might be helpful, as a reminder to hon. Members, to say a few background words about the Government’s position in relation to the safety of radioactive materials. The safety and security of those materials on sites or in transport will, I hope it goes without saying, always remain the highest priority for Government. The UK has well developed emergency response arrangements and we are committed to taking account of international standards. It should be pointed out that the risk of a radiation emergency is extremely low and that risk has not changed, but robust arrangements must be in place for radioactive emergencies, however unlikely they may be. The directive that I mentioned gave the Government an opportunity to review and update Great Britain’s existing emergency preparedness framework in the light of the new internationally recognised safety standards, which build on work done by the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Although we will be leaving the EU and the Euratom treaty, the Government remain wholly committed to the highest standards of radiological safety. My Department held a joint consultation with the Ministry of Defence and the Health and Safety Executive on the changes made by this instrument. Last October, we published our response to the consultation, and I am happy to report that the proposals received broad support. Respondents recognised that the changes would strengthen Great Britain’s emergency preparedness and response arrangements for radiological emergencies. They welcomed the fact that the proposals align with IAEA best practice and the highest safety standards.
The amendments made by this instrument are as follows. We have broadened the definition of “emergency” to include risks to quality of life, property and the environment. That takes a comprehensive view of the effects of an emergency. We have also updated the principles and purposes that duty holders are to have regard to when drafting emergency plans, to ensure that the plans are flexible and proportionate. We are including in the regulations a definition of “emergency worker” and comprehensive requirements as to the training, equipment and medical surveillance that employees with roles under an emergency plan must be provided with. We are also expanding the requirement regularly to review and test emergency plans, including with a new requirement to take account of lessons learned from emergency exercises at national and international level.
For civil nuclear transport, the competent authority in Great Britain, which is the Office for Nuclear Regulation, will have a duty to provide information to the public about the nature and effect of a potential radiation emergency. This ensures that the general public have access to information about what to do in such an emergency.
The regulations will introduce a national reference level and require the carrier and consignor of radioactive materials to ensure that the emergency plan prioritises keeping radiation exposure below that level. The regulations also include a duty to provide a handover report to assist the transition from an emergency exposure situation to the recovery phase.
Part 2 of the regulations makes a technical update to a cross-reference in the Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and Spent Fuel Regulations 2008; and part 3 reinstates a previously revoked provision that implements an EU directive on volatile organic compound emissions resulting from the storage of petrol and its distribution.
The regulations will apply to England, Wales and Scotland; Northern Ireland will separately update its own version of the regulations with similar changes. The changes will affect all operators that transport radioactive materials by road, rail and inland waterway in Great Britain. The impact on business of the changes will be minimal. The main burden will be costs associated with familiarisation with the amendments and making any revisions to emergency plans. We calculate that to be a relatively minor, one-off cost. The other two changes included in the instrument—those on volatile organic compounds and trans-frontier shipment of radioactive waste—are purely technical and will not have any impact on industry.
In August 2017, the then Secretary of State for Defence agreed that although it is not legally obligated to, the Ministry of Defence will, where possible, comply with the emergency preparedness and response elements of the basic safety standards directive. Where Defence has exemptions, derogations or disapplications from applicable health and safety legislation, such as this legislation, it is committed to maintaining departmental arrangements that produce outcomes that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, at least as good as those required by UK legislation.
I look forward to hearing what hon. Members have to say about the proposed changes.
Richard Harrington
I am not trying to flatter the shadow Minister, but I work with him a lot and listen very carefully to what he has to say. Usually, the answers to his questions are extremely complex and I have to do my homework to understand them. However, in this case, my recollection of last week—I will ask my officials for clarification—is that the Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and Spent Fuel (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 were for the event of no deal only. Therefore, I do not believe his point is relevant; perhaps we will discuss that, but that is my understanding. It is a very constructive and, I am sure, well-researched point, but I think it misses the no-deal point—heaven forbid there is no deal.
Dr Whitehead
The citation and commencement of the regulations that we passed last week stated that they will come into force on exit day, whenever that is. Although that is when the SI will come into force, the revocation applies from when it is made, so it carries forward into legislation. That does not alter the fact that, although another SI will come into force on exit day, we are seeking to amend something that does not exist. Both statutory instruments come into force on exit day, regardless of whether there is no deal or a deal, because they have been made properly through the parliamentary process. If we pass these draft regulations, that is what will happen.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse for his intervention. We ought to think very carefully about whether we are able to proceed with these particular draft regulations, in the absence of a definitive view that, given what we know now, they are not defective and can be voted on and put in legislation.
Richard Harrington
It seems to me that last week we debated draft regulations, but they have not yet been made. That is why, respectfully, I do not think the hon. Gentleman’s point is valid.
The Chair
Order. I have sought advice on this point, and my understanding is that we can proceed.
Richard Harrington
If I may intervene again, Mr Bailey, I am certain that is the case, but if the shadow Minister wishes to have a meeting I will be very happy to put his mind at rest. It would involve going into details with lawyers and so on; I do not think I can do that now. Irrespective of what happens with the SI, I owe him that courtesy and will be very pleased to do that.
Dr Whitehead
I thank the Minister for that offer; I am sure I will take it up. Thank you, too, Mr Bailey, for your guidance on whether we could proceed. I thought we probably could. Nevertheless, what we end up with will not simply fall because it is contingent legislation; when exit day comes upon us, it will be defective because it amends something that no longer exists and therefore has no force. At the very least, it will be necessary to consider whether further legislation needs to be put into place to correct that before exit day. That is the minimum I would expect under the circumstances. It cannot just be brushed under the carpet; it is a serious issue relating to the force of the proposed legislation. Obviously, if we sit together and knowingly make legislation that does not work, we can at some stage be held accountable for that. Therefore, we need to take the matter very seriously.
Richard Harrington
If that were the case, it would be my responsibility and that of the Government, and not the responsibility of the hon. Gentleman, who has made his point very clearly.
Dr Whitehead
I thank the Minister. I personally take the view that we are all in this room together making this legislation and we all have an equal responsibility for making sure that it works, regardless of whether we are members of the Opposition or of the Government. My comments are made in that spirit, not in the spirit of opposition, because I want the legislation to work as well as possible.
Dr Whitehead
I have not yet come to the substance of what I am going to say, but I will give way.
Richard Harrington
For the record, I accept that comment in the spirit in which the shadow Minister made it. I did not think for one moment that it was a political point. He has made a very valid point and I hope I have answered it, but I accept the fact and take responsibility for that.
Richard Harrington
I thank the hon. Members for Southampton, Test, for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and for Poplar and Limehouse for their contributions. I will try to deal with the majority of their points.
I certainly respect the point made by the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse that the Opposition may feel it necessary to vote against the measure because, as the shadow Minister argued, it is invalid because it is contradictory. I fully respect that point, particularly given the Whip’s guidance. As you will know from your long parliamentary experience, Mr Bailey, one tends to do what Whips advise one to do, and that is particularly true in the case of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent. I will try my best briefly to dissuade them.
First, I will try to put to bed the point about the impact assessment, which was mentioned in the first version of the draft regulations but not in the second version. I think the difference was between the versions published on 13 December and 20 December. The decision was taken not to carry out an impact assessment simply because it was viewed as de minimis. There is a de minimis threshold of £5 million. The instrument makes no changes that would involve a significant impact on business, charities, voluntary bodies or the public sector, so we decided not to carry out an impact assessment. That was quite within the rules. I apologise for the confusion, but we had to take a decision, and that is what we decided. Hon. Members may disapprove of that, but there is no impact assessment because the impact is de minimis. It is not the case that there was one and we did not like it so we thought it should be hidden.
I think I answered in interventions the point about contradictions in the legislation. That may or may not be acceptable to the Opposition, but there is no point in my repeating it.
I turn to the point about dose limits for emergency workers’ exposure to radiation. I think everyone shares the intention of ensuring that that does not happen, but if it does the rules are very clear. The whole thing really is very complicated. It is certainly true that planning for an emergency scenario is very different from planning for a normal work scenario. The 500 mSv limit applies only in the circumstances set out in paragraph 8(1)(a) and (b) of the schedule. I do not think the IAEA was thinking only of catastrophic scenarios; I think it was generally allowing for lawful exposures with the intention of reducing harm. That is a very relevant point, but it is very complicated.
I am afraid I gave up physics at the age of 16, for the very good reason that I had failed my exams in it, but the dose limits in the Ionising Radiation Regulations 2017 apply generally to work with radiation. Paragraph 8(1) of the schedule disapplies them in the case of an emergency, because they could cause the employer to commit a criminal offence in dealing with such emergencies. That is why it sets a reference level appropriate to emergencies.
Dr Whitehead
I have given my speaking notes to Hansard, so I have to do this from memory, but does the Minister consider that the regulations as they stand give effect to what is in the IAEA definition of exposure to radiation—the knowledge and understanding that is required, and the informed consent that must be given if that high level of radiation is to be permitted under those circumstances? I cannot see anything in the regulations that says that, and I would be interested if the Minister could point me to anything in the regulations that requires that informed consent to be provided for under those circumstances, as is set out in the IAEA regulations.
Richard Harrington
I consider my response satisfactory and I am prepared to write to the hon. Gentleman on the specific point he brought up. He did very well without his speaking notes.
Returning to the 500 mSv reference level, it transposes an EU directive and brings us into line with international standards. Those might not be the right standards, although we think they are, but it is certainly absolutely in line with them. It is meant as a reference level for planning purposes, and reflects an upper limit. It does not mean that that level is acceptable or normal, but it gives an upper limit. The goal in any emergency plan is, of course, to minimise exposure—that is the whole purpose of the draft regulations—but regulations must set a ceiling, and the definition of an emergency would include doses far below that level.
Repeating the point that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, the SNP spokesman, made, the levels are intended to apply to an emergency situation. Any operator regularly exposing the public to nuclear emergencies would face other sanctions from the appropriate authorities. It is not just these draft regulations that would be relevant in such a case.
I hope that I have explained the points that were brought up by Opposition Members. Despite those points, I certainly in every way commend the draft Carriage of Dangerous Goods (Amendment) Regulations 2019 to the Committee.
Question put.
Furniture Manufacturers
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe, and today is no exception. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup) for securing this debate, and to all hon. Members who have attended just to hear her—or maybe just to hear me. She mentioned much-loved pieces of furniture. I would not like to pick out any particular Members, but there are some who have been here longer than others and who could be referred to as such. I know she is very interested in representing her constituents who work in Long Eaton, and I pay tribute to her for doing so. Her predecessor, Jessica Lee, did exactly the same job, representing the interests of upholstery and furniture manufacturers—maybe she should be the greatly loved piece of furniture to which the hon. Lady referred.
The British manufacturing industry fell into—shall we say—disrepair in the eyes of commentators for a long time. There was the clothing industry in the Leeds of my childhood and that of my parents and grandparents. The Long Eaton lace industry has gone, as have many other industries in our constituencies.
Richard Harrington
I think my hon. Friend wants to talk about the lace industry—I know it is still there, although I believe that it was in the next town rather than in Long Eaton, if my memory is correct.
Maggie Throup
I am delighted that the Minister recognises the importance of the Nottingham lace industry, which was actually mainly in Derbyshire. My constituency has the final remaining Nottingham lace manufacturer in Ilkeston, which is the other town.
Richard Harrington
I actually corrected myself—it is Ilkeston. I know there are two towns in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but for the purpose of the debate, Long Eaton is a centre of upholstery and furniture, which she will know as chair of the APPG for the furniture industry. We all support business in our constituency. I am pleased that the industry we are talking about is doing so well—so much so that people will come to Long Eaton from all over the world for the big annual exhibition that she mentioned. That is wonderful.
Industries are often forgotten about. In my role as Minister for businesses and industry, I spend a lot of time on the automotive industry, the aerospace industry and other huge employers throughout the country, but it is so pleasing when the House debates examples of how well more localised industries are doing. The economic importance of the furniture manufacturing sector is clear: it numbers 15,000 businesses and nearly 100,000 people. The east midlands region alone accounts for about 14% of that total across the country.
Furniture is fundamental to all our lives. The massed ranks of the House of Commons are sitting on nicely upholstered furniture in this Chamber. How many of them would be here if we had only planks to sit on? I am not sure. Obviously, Mr McCabe, you would always have a nice leather-upholstered chair.
Richard Harrington
The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn) looks very comfortable in her chair, and I am not sure that she would be attracted to something less comfortable. Maybe she sacrifices herself and uses more uncomfortable chairs in Great Grimsby, in which case I would advise her constituents to buy comfortable things made in Long Eaton.
My hon. Friend mentioned three things. First, the current uncertainty around EU exit; secondly, the regulatory framework in which the sector operates; and thirdly, the need to maintain a skilled workforce. I will try to deal with those separately.
On the EU exit, I know that the uncertainty of not knowing the rules of the future is very difficult for business. I have been in business for most of my life and I know that the one thing you need is certainty to plan —not you, Mr McCabe, but one generally. I am sure you would if you were in business, as you may be in the future if you decide to change career; I am sure it would be a brilliant career, whatever you decided to do. One thinks about the certainty of rules and the importance of frictionless trade in goods for supply chains across industry.
That is particularly important for the furniture industry, which relies, as my hon. Friend said, on sourcing the very best materials, from wherever they may come. That could be the EU, with the Italian fabrics that she mentioned, or hardwoods from other parts of the world. The Government will do everything we can to ensure that the movement of goods remains as frictionless as possible to the benefit of industry across the UK.
Secondly, on regulation, the Government understand the importance of clarity on product safety and mutual recognition issues.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
To return to Brexit momentarily, I visited the Silverlining furniture company in Wrexham—a very high-quality business that exports high-spec furniture abroad—and one point it made was that skilled labour from all across Europe works for it at a very high level. We have to focus not only on materials, but on people.
Richard Harrington
The hon. Gentleman makes a brilliant point, which concerns not only the people who come to work in factories such as the one in his constituency, but the free flow and ability of labour to install and maintain many UK-manufactured products in the European Union. Many of the companies that we regard as manufacturing businesses make a lot of their added value from precisely those sorts of services. Although, like most people, I accept that when we leave the European Union we will not exactly have free movement of labour—that is part of being in the European Union—there has to be a system that enables businesses to fill vacancies quickly, without thousands of pounds-worth of bureaucracy and too many rules. I pay tribute to the people from the European Union who contribute so much to the manufacturing industry in this country. Long may that continue.
I just got going on free movement, but I shall return to regulation, which it is also important to get right. We need to maintain the industry’s reputation for excellence in both quality and safety, and to make sure that we have the support of businesses, because they work to the regulations. By and large, they want regulations that are the same here as in the countries to which they sell.
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
My hon. Friend rightly speaks about our furniture manufacturers’ reputation for high standards, which is one of the many reasons why Boss Design in my constituency has been picked to furnish the new World Trade Centre in New York. Research by the British Furniture Confederation showed that some products that come into the UK with CE approval are not properly flame resistant and can be burnt to a cinder in as little as 10 minutes, whereas a properly compliant product would self-extinguish within 10 to 15 seconds. Is he as concerned about that as I am?
Richard Harrington
I thank my hon. Friend for bringing that to my attention; it is a relevant point. I remind hon. Members who may have temporarily forgotten that the Prime Minister visited Boss Design and was very impressed with what she saw. I will make sure that the relevant officials are aware of the point that my hon. Friend makes.
We share the desire of businesses for consumers to have confidence that the products in their homes are produced to rigorous safety requirements. We have to work with both business and our EU partners to ensure that regulations are effective and fit for the future. That has nothing to do with whether or not we are in the European Union. There is a commonality of interest and desire among people all over the world to have the same standards.
I recognise that the industry’s continued success relies on having the right skills. As my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash mentioned, just one sofa requires a range of skills, from carpentry to the intricate skills of the upholsterer. The Government are keen to ensure that the industry has the skills it needs. We have heard the call for an immigration system based purely on skills and qualifications, and such a system is set out in the immigration White Paper. There has to be an easy and simple route for skilled workers, because it is otherwise difficult for manufacturers and other employers as far as time and money are concerned. When we talk about friction, we mean not only the friction of raw materials coming in, but of all things to do with business, and we are very conscious of that. That is particularly important where there is a skill shortage. The Government will engage businesses and employers on setting salary thresholds and the conditions around them.
In the long term, we want to nurture home-grown talent within companies, which is where apprenticeships come in. We need to develop that. The apprenticeship levy was a good idea, but it must not become a payroll tax that means that companies are unable to spend money that was theirs to begin with. That will require a lot of work. The sector has been very willing to work with Government to make the apprenticeship levy a success. Whether through the British furniture manufacturers’ FIESTA—Furniture and Interiors Education, Skills and Training Alliance—programme, T-levels or the national apprenticeship awards, the furniture industry has outperformed in its contribution to apprenticeships relative to its size. We have to ensure that the future generation of furniture makers succeed.
Finally, my hon. Friend raised the concerns of her constituents in Long Eaton about High Speed 2, as she has done numerous times in the House. The Government’s local growth team—a joint unit between the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government —is supporting the Department for Transport in working constructively with places along the HS2 route and taking into account the needs of local businesses. I hope that her constituents were able to engage with the consultations on phase 2b of the route which were undertaken between October and December last year. We are analysing the feedback from that consultation and I would be happy to discuss it with her in our meeting on 5 February, which we arranged following her recent questions to me in the House. I will ensure that the relevant officials from all Departments are there.
The country has a rich history of producing world-class furniture, and my hon Friend’s constituency has a tradition of producing world-class MPs. I thank her for reminding us both of the furniture industry’s great contribution to our country and of the strong position it is in to make a positive contribution to a more sustainable future.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and spent fuel (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and Spent Fuel (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
I do not have to tell you this, Sir David, because you know it is true, but it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I have pointed that out on other occasions, but I reiterate my previous comments on the subject.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
May I point out that not only is it an enormous pleasure for us all to be here under your chairmanship, Sir David, but that it is an unbridled pleasure for us all to be here once again with the Minister?
Richard Harrington
I am, unusually, speechless; I say only that if all parliamentary business were like the Statutory Instrument Committees we have sat on in the past couple of weeks, we would all be able to have a much longer break in February.
It is my duty and pleasure to introduce the draft regulations, which were laid before the House on 28 November. They are made under powers set out in section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and address specific inoperabilities arising from the UK’s withdrawal from Euratom. They will come into force on exit day, only in the event of there being no deal between the UK and the EU. I shall not comment further on that.
As I have said in the House, we are seeking a wide-ranging nuclear co-operation agreement with Euratom while putting in place the necessary measures to ensure that the UK industry can operate in all scenarios. The draft regulations are one such measure. They revoke and replace the Transfrontier Shipment of Radioactive Waste and Spent Fuel Regulations 2008, which will become inoperable once the UK is no longer a member of the EU. The draft regulations introduce broadly equivalent procedures for the import, export and transit of radioactive waste and spent fuel into and out of the UK, but they reflect the UK’s independence of the Euratom community in such circumstances and apply to the whole UK.
The draft regulations set out a regime to ensure that radioactive waste and spent fuel are not shipped into or out of the UK without prior authorisation from the relevant competent authorities. They are vital to protect the public and the environment from the dangers of ionising radiation when radioactive waste and spent fuel is shipped into or out of the UK. They allow for the continuation of crucial nuclear activities such as the decommissioning of legacy sites and the return of radioactive waste to the relevant country of origin following the reprocessing of other nations’ spent fuel.
I will say just a few words about the background to the draft regulations. To put them in perspective, I should say that every year we make about 400 shipments of radioactive waste to Euratom member states. The majority of those shipments are of contaminated metals for treatment in Germany and Sweden. Hon. Members may be aware that we have ceased reprocessing other nations’ spent fuel, but we will need to return high-level waste arising from the last of the reprocessing contracts to its countries of origin—Australia, Japan, Germany and Italy. The draft regulations will allow for the return of that high-level waste, and they are of strategic importance to the UK’s fulfilling its reprocessing contracts and supporting the decommissioning and clean-up mission at Sellafield.
The 2008 regulations introduced a set of regulatory procedures for transfrontier shipments within Euratom and a separate set of procedures for shipments entering or exiting the community. When we leave the EU and Euratom, those regulations will become inoperable because they treat the EU as a single bloc that includes us. To ensure there is an operable regime after exit day, the draft regulations treat Euratom member states and all other countries in the same way.
There will be three operational changes for our operators shipping to and from Euratom member states. First, they will need to request authorisation from the relevant authority when importing a shipment from Euratom. The competent authorities are the Environment Agency, Natural Resource Wales, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency.
Secondly, UK operators will need to notify the relevant competent authorities when the shipment is completed. Thirdly, when importing from a Euratom state, UK operators will need to provide evidence that they have made an arrangement with the exporter that has been accepted by the exporter’s competent authority. That arrangement would oblige them to take back the radioactive waste or spent fuel if the shipment cannot be completed in accordance with the regulations.
To put the changes into context, I should say that they do not affect the entire nuclear industry, and at present only six UK operators have authorisations in place to ship radioactive waste. Were these not formal proceedings, I would ask you, Sir David, and others to estimate the total costs to all affected industry from these additional steps—they are far less than I thought. My Department’s officials have estimated that they are between £1,700 and £6,000 every three years, as well as a minor familiarisation cost for operators of £100 to £900 each.
The guidance for the regulations will be published online prior to coming into force, and our officials have been engaging regularly with the operators that will be affected to ensure that there is minimum disruption. As I say, it is de minimis, but it still needs to be done properly.
For the record, the instrument was drafted collaboratively between the officials in our Department, the devolved Administrations, the UK’s environment agencies, the Office for Nuclear Regulation and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. Although the legislative competence is reserved, we have been very collaborative about it. I thank the devolved authorities and all other partners for the help that they have given. Further engagements have taken place through stakeholder workshops, the Euratom industry forum and other industry events.
The regulations are vital to the success of our decommissioning programme and to the completion of our last few reprocessing contracts. The regulations will allow the UK to maintain the highest nuclear safety standards, while ensuring that the relevant UK operators can continue to operate, even in the unlikely event of a no-deal scenario.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I will leave it at that, because I am concerned about the spread of so-called “pleasure creep”, where one has to put a number of nouns, adjectives and adverbs in front of the word “pleasure” to indicate that it really is a pleasure. I will be straightforward and stick to what I have just said.
The statutory instrument is essentially a very sensible piece of work to ensure that after exiting the EU we have in place the authorisation, certification and all other necessary arrangements to allow radioactive waste to transit properly—the Minister mentioned some 300 shipments a year. Previously, that was all done essentially under the aegis of Euratom; the question of having those arrangements, certainly as far as transfer to Euratom countries was concerned, did not come before us.
The Euratom arrangements also applied to trans-shipments that were not to Euratom countries but were under the aegis of Euratom as far as such trans-shipment arrangements were concerned. Trans-shipments to Japan, Australia and various other places were effectively covered by the fact that Euratom had an arrangement with those countries; we did not need a separate one. Now, we will have to have separate arrangements under all those circumstances, which is what this SI effectively does. It does so by revoking the 2008 regulations, and then—as is stated in the explanatory memorandum—largely replicates them
“by laying down broadly equivalent procedures”.
My comment to the Minister, which I have made on a number of other occasions when we have had these discussions about similar SIs, is that the broadly equivalent procedures seem to replicate quite well what would have happened under Euratom, given how the regulations are written. I would like the Minister to confirm that he is satisfied that that is the case. Obviously, I have not been able to compare regulation with regulation, but I assume that that is the basis of the “largely replicates” quote.
Richard Harrington
I confirm, as the shadow Minister has asked me to, that he is absolutely right: the new regulations broadly replicate the 2008 regulations, and there is no material difference at all.
Dr Whitehead
I thank the Minister for that. That is exactly what I had anticipated he would say, and I am grateful that he was able to say it.
The second issue relates to the quantity and concentration of consignments that trigger the need to define a shipment as a transfrontier shipment under the terms of the SI. I am sure that the Minister will have been party to the translation of regulations determining that: those regulations have been changed from a 2008 Euratom Council directive to a more recent directive in order to get those definitions right. In so doing, at least some reference to Euratom Council directives appears to have been preserved, but I assume that reference is only for purposes of definition, not of jurisdiction. I guess that the Minister will be able to put my mind at rest on that point as well.
Richard Harrington
I confirm that the hon. Gentleman’s mind should be at rest on that point.
Dr Whitehead
I thank the Minister for that. My final brief point follows from the one the Minister made about the total cost of these arrangements, which is indeed very modest: as he has said, it is between £1,700 and £6,000 every three years. Those extra costs arise from the fact that, on occasions, transfrontier shipments will have to accede to both the existing Euratom regime and the new regime being created in this country. If a cost went from Euratom to the new transfrontier shipment arrangements, then there would be no net cost; that additional cost arises only when the cost is being doubled up. That is my understanding of the situation.
Richard Harrington
That is my understanding of the situation as well. As usual, the shadow Minister has nailed this. That is exactly the case.
Dr Whitehead
That is good. My observation—I think I am still under five minutes—is that the cost could be mitigated were we to make some kind of associate arrangement with Euratom in the future, perhaps in the long term. Obviously, the SI is predicated on the fact that we will have no arrangement with Euratom post 31 March, but if there is a longer associate arrangement—as was discussed a little while ago during the passage of the Nuclear Safeguards Act 2018—those costs would presumably not arise and that very modest additional cost would therefore be dissolved. That is just an observation about the future. I hope the Minister will be able to encourage the idea that we might have a future closer arrangement with Euratom, even though we will no longer be members of Euratom. I have just discussed one of the minor things that would be facilitated by such an arrangement.
I think hon. Members will have gathered from those remarks that we do not oppose the draft regulations. Indeed, we wish them success and hope they can be applied in the most expeditious way possible.
Richard Harrington
I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. On the general point about Euratom, I hope the charges will disappear if we have the closest possible associate membership of Euratom, which, as the shadow Minister knows very well, is what we hope to have. That of course is all for negotiation. It is my sincere hope that we will have such close associate membership that there will not be a question of costs, but I cannot say that. If only we could say that the cost generally of our leaving the EU without a deal were as little as £6,000. The cost in this case is pretty small—it is symbolic, really—and we hope to have the closest possible future relationship.
I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon said about Bradwell. I sincerely hope not only that the nuclear tradition there continues but that the site has a great future in providing employment and energy security for the country. I completely support what he said.
I reassure the Scottish National party spokesman, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, that we introduce the draft regulations in a spirit of complete co-operation with the Scottish Government and other devolved authorities, and that will continue. There is no change in jurisdiction, but some things extend beyond jurisdiction to our having a good working relationship in this field, and we have that. He made a specific point about the management of radioactive waste, which remains devolved. Nothing will change in that regard, although I must say, just so there is no confusion, that that is a separate issue from the frontier shipment of waste, which is what the draft regulations deal with. However, he made his point very reasonably, and luckily I was able to answer it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor asked about the medical side of things—radioactive waste from hospitals and so on. The draft regulations cover only radioactive waste and spent fuel; they do not concern medical radioactive material, so I can satisfy him on that point.
I think I have answered all the questions that were raised. I thank the shadow Minister for his support for this brief but important piece of delegated legislation.
Question put and agreed to.
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Richard Harrington
I am pleased to remind the House that, on 19 December, the Treasury published a review of the impact of the worldwide harmonised light vehicles test procedure on vehicle excise duty and company car tax. The review is open until 17 September.
[Official Report, 16 January 2019, Vol. 652, c. 1284.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington).
An error has been identified in the speech I gave on Car Production: Solihull.
The correct response should have been:
Richard Harrington
I am pleased to remind the House that, on 19 December, the Treasury published a review of the impact of the worldwide harmonised light vehicles test procedure on vehicle excise duty and company car tax. The review is open until 17 February.
Draft Justification Decision Power (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Lord Harrington of Watford Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Justification Decision Power (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
It is a great pleasure to be here under your chairmanship, Sir Henry—in my case for the first time, but given the number of regulations due to be considered over the next few weeks, possibly not the last time. The Justification of Practices Involving Ionising Radiation Regulations 2004, which I will call the “justification regulations” to simplify matters, provide a framework within which justification decisions regarding ionising radiation are made. It may not surprise you, Sir Henry, to learn that those decisions are an important part of our regulatory regime that surrounds ionising regulations, as they determine whether a practice involving ionising radiation is justified in advance of its first being adopted or approved. In addition, it may be determined as a result of a review that a class or type of practice is no longer justified, so it works both ways.
The power to make those decisions is currently provided by section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. It is possible that only yourself, Sir Henry, the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, and I were around to witness the passage of that Act; it did pass me by at the time, but I have concentrated on the matter for the purpose of today’s statutory instrument. Given the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union and Euratom, and the repeal of the 1972 Act, the justifying authority will not retain the power to make justification decisions regarding practices involving ionising regulation. This instrument corrects that inoperability by providing the authority with a replacement power to make justification decisions involving ionising regulation. The powers to make this secondary legislation are found in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which received Royal Assent in June 2018.
I will briefly explain the background to our position in relation to the 2004 regulations. The Committee should be aware that we are committed to maintaining an up-to-date and internationally concurrent justification regime, because we are a world leader in radiological safety and that needs to continue. We also have an international reputation as a trusted partner, with other countries trading nuclear skills, services and materials with us. These regulations are the first step towards regulatory approval for a new class or type of practice involving ionising radiation—for example, medical treatments and new designs of nuclear reactors that may be proposed. The regulations provide that framework.
The bit of the framework that the regulations provide is how Government determine whether the practice is justified in this context, rather than the general word “justified”. In this more narrow sense, “justified” means that the individual or societal benefit of a practice involving ionised radiation outweighs its potential detriment to health. It is a balance, which any Government need to have a system to be able to recognise. Those decisions are taken by the justifying authority, which could be the Secretary of State of the relevant Department or the devolved Administrations, in the form of regulations.
I will quickly mention the devolved Administrations, because they have been involved a lot in this process, and have been content for us to establish and make changes to the justification regime using UK-wide regulations. The instrument allows us to make UK-wide justification decisions in reserved areas, but also allows the devolved Administrations to make their own justification decisions using regulations covering their own geographical areas for activities that fall within the devolved subject matters. I can confirm that we have received letters of consent from each of the devolved Administrations agreeing that they are happy for us to proceed.
Let me briefly expand on the draft regulations. Further to the invocation of article 50, the 2018 Act will repeal the 1972 Act when we exit the EU. However, to ensure continuity for the UK, the 2018 Act will preserve EU-derived domestic legislation so that it continues to have effect in domestic law. That will leave our statute book with several EU-related inoperabilities, including the power to make justification decisions; there are others, but they are not the subject of this debate.
The draft regulations will provide the justifying authority with a replacement power, created under section 8 of the 2018 Act, to make justification decisions under the 2004 regulations once the existing power ceases to be available as a result of the repeal of the 1972 Act. It is important to note that the draft regulations will not allow the Secretary of State or the devolved Administrations to make decisions in any other way, nor will it give them any extra powers or competencies that they did not have under the 2004 regulations. The replacement power is narrower than the power under the 1972 Act: it is limited to the making of justification decisions for the purposes of the justification regulations.
Looking forward, the Department is aware of several potential justification applications that may require a decision by the Secretary of State in the normal way. A functioning justification regime is necessary to ensure that those applications are subject to the appropriate scrutiny procedures. To give just one example, the HPR1000 reactor, intended for use at Bradwell, is a new nuclear reactor design that will require a justification decision before it can be deployed.
I hope Committee members will confine their remarks to specific technical points related to the draft regulations and agree that the regulations are necessary to ensure a functioning statute book on exit day, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.
Richard Harrington
I am pleased to confirm, Sir Henry, that you have presided over peace and tranquillity this afternoon. I thank the shadow Minister and the Scottish National party spokesman. [Interruption.] I thought the Whip was bringing out more sweets.
In response to the shadow Minister’s question, I happily confirm that the regulations are absolutely a replica of the previous ones. He used the word “malfeasance”. I confirm for the record that there has not been any, and there will not be.
Question put and agreed to.