British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders laid before the House on 29 February be approved.

Relevant documents: 58th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010–12; 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010–12; 1st and 4th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, considered in Grand Committee on 25 June.

Motion approved.

Rio+20 Conference

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stern of Brentford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the outcomes at the recent Rio+20 conference and the contribution made by the United Kingdom Government.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the Rio+20 conference made clear that the green economy is essential for poverty eradication and sustainable development. It sets out a green economy vision and has agreed some specific steps that countries can take to implement this. These include agreement to develop sustainable development goals and indicators to complement GDP, and to advance corporate sustainability reporting. We approached Rio+20 with ambition and engaged constructively with our international partners, and we will continue to do this as we focus on implementation.

[Lord Stern of Brentford]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. I certainly welcome the Rio commitment to develop sustainable development goals and the Prime Minister’s involvement in that work. However, does the Minister agree that the facts indicate that now is the time for strong action if we are to avoid severe threats to the lives and livelihoods of future generations, particularly of the poorest among them? Does he also agree that the paucity of specific commitments, credible action plans and funding make Rio+20 deeply disappointing? Will he therefore agree that now is the time to change the debate by providing clear and strong examples of action to achieve results and that of particular importance is the implementation of sustainable energy for all by bringing sustainable power to the approximately 1.5 billion people with no access to electricity? Will the UK Government therefore work directly and strongly to support countries with viable plans for the delivery of sustainable energy for all?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord has a great deal of knowledge in this area and I am very sorry that his indisposition meant that he could not chair one of the key committees at the conference. I agree that some of the outcomes are not as strong as we might have hoped. However, we must view this agreement in context. More than 190 countries have signed up to a political declaration and it is on the foundation of that declaration that the detailed work will then go forward. This country went to Rio+20 with a number of proposals that were welcomed by that conference.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, in view of the fact that one of the greatest single sources of global emissions is deforestation, and yet timber is one of the few tangible assets of some poor countries, will the Minister tell the House what specific agreement we made at Rio to try to tackle this very important issue?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I agree with the noble Lord that this is important. We wanted to impress on the conference that GDP was a rather inadequate measure of the resources of a country, and that we want to develop indicators of natural and social capital to complement GDP and agreement to incorporate these into national accounts. All nations at Rio+20 recognise the importance of a broader measure of progress to complement GDP in order to inform decision-making. Forestry is a key element of natural capital, and the UN Statistical Commission will take this work forward.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, corporate business is more and more important to the way the world develops. One of my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister’s targets was to get corporates to report much more on carbon emissions and wider environmental issues. I congratulate the Government on deciding to do that here in the UK, but what other nations are following our lead and how does the Minister see this developing in the future?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am delighted that the Deputy Prime Minister was able to make this declaration on greenhouse gas reporting at Rio. I can report back that the UK was key in this particular area and that this particular development was widely welcomed. Indeed, the decision was cheered by the conference. At Rio, we talked to Aviva and Unilever—companies that have developed exactly this sort of approach to corporate responsibility—and hope that this model will be taken up by other companies.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, will the Minister take time to reflect on the answer he has given? I suggest, if I may, that he will find it very complacent. Climate change is the largest threat to the global community, notwithstanding our financial difficulties, which are obviously acute. Does the Minister agree that we must take urgent action on migration, world poverty and food availability for the world population? What happened at Rio is a disgrace. We should learn from the financial crisis that we suffer grievously if we do not take action in time. Why have we not taken and agreed specific action at Rio?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord makes a passionate contribution to the discussion. Underlying it, of course, is the question of Britain’s role. This is a gathering of the world’s nations, with a huge disparity between the wealth and economic activity of the participating countries. Getting a single agreement is bound to be difficult. It is important that we have laid the foundations for discussions in the future that can lead to exactly the sort of outcomes that the noble Lord seeks, but it would be presumptive of this country or Parliament to go to an international conference and insist that it had the solutions to the world’s problems. We are part and parcel of a global solution, and that is what we seek to maintain.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, the Rio agreement 20 years ago was a landmark agreement. As a result, we had Local Agenda 21, and “thinking global, acting local” entered our consciousness. By contrast, this agreement is a let-down. What does the Minister think this treaty will be remembered for in a month’s time, let alone in 20 years’ time? Given that the Prime Minister is co-chairing a process for following up the millennium development goals, in the light of a lack of progress at Rio what hope does the Minister have for the Prime Minister’s success?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I certainly have a great deal more hope than is evidenced by the noble Lord’s question. I do not see this as a failure. As I said right at the beginning in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Stern, this has the potential to build the foundations for a durable and sustainable global green economy. The Prime Minister is, through the United Nations, chairing his committee and working in parallel with the millennium development goals, and I am satisfied that he will achieve the outcome that he desires.

British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012.

Relevant documents: 58th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010-12; 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12; 1st and 4th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I hope that we will be able to debate the Inland Waterways Advisory Council (Abolition) Order 2012 at the same time as this order.

I am pleased that we have the opportunity to debate these two orders in Grand Committee today. As noble Lords will know, they are very important for the future of the leisure industry and as a national resource. The transfer order transfers the function of the British Waterways Board in England and Wales to a new charity, the Canal and River Trust, which I will refer to from now on as the CRT, and makes a consequential provision in Scotland. The British Waterways Board will continue to operate as a Scotland-only body and will be accountable to Scottish Ministers.

The second order abolishes the Inland Waterways Advisory Council, an independent advisory committee to the UK and Scottish Governments. The Scottish Parliament has given its consent to the transfer and abolition orders, and the National Assembly for Wales has given its consent to the transfer order. Both orders have been subjected to the enhanced affirmative procedure and examined by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee here in the Lords—I shall have to get used to the committee’s new name; we probably remember it as the Merits Committee—and by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee in the other place.

I shall now briefly summarise the aims and objectives of these orders and pay consideration to the points of interest that were raised by these committees. The background to this project began under the previous Government, and I am grateful for the cross-party support it has received. It is no exaggeration to say that it would not have made the rapid progress that it has without the broad consensus that has been reached across Parliament. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Goodlad and the members of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for their constructive engagement in scrutinising these orders. We have read the committee’s report carefully and I shall respond to its recommendations during the course of this debate.

The transfer of the waterways will give those who are passionate about them increased opportunities to get involved and influence the way in which their waterways are managed. We have consulted widely in preparing for this transfer. I am confident that the clear public support for this change will make CRT a successful charity. The Government have agreed to provide a 15-year grant agreement worth around £800 million, a settlement which the CRT has described as tough but fair. The grant agreement will give the waterways a level of financial certainty that will enable them to plan for the long term, as we would wish, realising efficiencies and achieving best value for money. As was requested by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I have arranged for a draft of the transfer scheme to be laid in the Libraries of both Houses in advance of today’s debate. The scheme provides for the transfer of British Waterways’ assets and liabilities and is the counterpart of this order.

In order to allow for scrutiny of the financial development of the new organisation, I am happy to agree to the committee’s recommendation that Defra should provide Parliament with a Written Statement setting out the financial position of the CRT two years after the draft order is made.

In its consideration of the draft order, the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee in the other place questioned the Government about property and charitable income projections for the new charity. I assure noble Lords that while there is a degree of uncertainty with any projection of future income, the CRT has undertaken extensive due diligence and is confident in the projections.

The estimates of charitable fundraising were finalised in 2011 and reflect recent attitudes to charitable giving. They are based on evidence-based market research, expert judgment and benchmarking by a leading consultancy in the sector. The CRT has recruited a fundraising team that is motivated, not daunted, by the challenge ahead.

The CRT trustees believe that the projections for growth in commercial income are prudent. British Waterways has a proven track record in property management and has outperformed industry benchmarks. It has shown itself to be an excellent custodian of the commercial property portfolio, which has become vital to the sustainability of the waterways. Its careful management of the property portfolio and the safeguards that we have put in place through this transfer will ensure that these assets continue to supply the waterways with much needed revenue.

We have also received a number of questions about volunteering. I am confident, indeed excited, that the move to the charity sector will significantly increase volunteering on the waterways. Indeed, the creation of the CRT has already boosted volunteering numbers—a sign of the public’s enthusiasm for the move ahead. This is a good thing for society at large and for the waterways, but let me assure your Lordships that the CRT will not be using volunteers to replace existing staff. Volunteers will be used only to undertake activities that British Waterways cannot do at current staffing levels.

During the 60-day procedure in Parliament, Defra received representations from two separate groups of private boaters. One group asked for reassurance about the consultation procedures to be followed for making orders under Sections 104 and 105 of the Transport Act 1968. Such orders concern changes to the classification of a waterway or to the prescribed navigation dimensions to which a waterway must be maintained. My officials have given the requested assurances, and the consultation process will be set out in the memorandum of understanding between Defra and the CRT, which I shall publish in due course.

The second representation was from the National Bargee Travellers Association, from whom many noble Lords will have received communications. This is one of a number of organisations that look after the interests of boat dwellers. The NBTA has already issued responses to our two consultations in 2011 and submitted reports to the EFRA Select Committee and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. We addressed the NBTA’s concerns about human rights and the application of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in our evidence to parliamentary committees.

In response to its most recent representation, I can give the NBTA an assurance, on behalf of the CRT, that the CRT will not exercise its powers to remove a vessel that is thought to be someone’s home without first taking the matter to the county court and obtaining a declaration from the court that the removal is lawful.

Further, I assure the Grand Committee that the transfer order does not create new enforcement powers for the CRT. The CRT, as statutory undertaker, will have the same powers to manage the waterways as British Waterways has now. The existing safeguards that apply to the use of these powers will continue to apply to any enforcement action taken by the CRT.

In response to a recommendation from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I am also happy, on behalf of the CRT, to assure the Grand Committee that the Canal and River Trust will take into consideration the specific needs of all stakeholders, including itinerant boat dwellers, in the development of all future by-laws. My honourable friend the Waterways Minister, Richard Benyon, will write to the NBTA in due course to set out our position on the other points it has raised.

The creation of the CRT will significantly improve our national dialogue about the waterways. The CRT’s governance model will bring some 200 people into the business of running the waterways, whether as trustees or as members of the council or the waterways partnerships. With all this expertise and engagement, the CRT will become the Government’s principal, although not our only, interlocutor on the waterways in the years ahead.

The creation of the CRT means that the Government will no longer need an independent statutory body to advise on the waterways. The proposed abolition of the Inland Waterways Advisory Council is part of the department’s simplification of our very complex delivery landscape. In addition to improved accountability arising from the creation of the CRT, the abolition of the IWAC will lead to greater efficiency, effectiveness and economy. It will, for example, save £200,000 a year.

I should acknowledge that the abolition of the IWAC has proved mildly controversial. There were only 35 responses to our formal consultation—less than a tenth of the responses to the consultation on the creation of the new charity, for example—but most of those who responded wanted to keep the IWAC, at least until the Environment Agency navigations transfer to the new charity from 2015-16. We have considered those views carefully. However, I believe that the practical work to prepare for the transfer of the EA navigations is better carried out by our officials, working very closely with our engaged and committed stakeholders. To the extent that we may need independent advice from time to time, it is more cost-effective to commission such advice as needed, rather than have a standing body, which, in the way of the world, would find work to do.

In moving the Motion to consider the abolition of the Inland Waterways Advisory Committee, I should acknowledge the very valuable knowledge and expertise of its current members. They have made a useful contribution to the development of government policy on inland waterways, and my honourable friend the Waterways Minister wrote to them all to encourage them to make their knowledge and expertise available to the CRT.

In conclusion, moving the waterways to the new waterways charity and abolishing the Inland Waterways Advisory Committee will bring many benefits. This transfer will enable waterways users to have the opportunity to play a role in the governance of the waterways and bring their passion and expertise to the waterways they cherish. Local communities will have a greater say in how their local canal or river is run. This is localism in action.

Volunteering will increase, benefiting society, heritage and the environment. The financial footing of the waterways will be sustainable into the long term. New commercial and private income streams will become available. The long-term grant agreement offers the security that the new project needs. Fifty years after British Waterways was created, it is time to move on. With that in mind, I commend these draft orders to the Committee and beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. We on this side of the Committee support these orders, but I shall qualify that as I go along, as is my job. It has been a debate in which some good points were made. I will not rehearse all those points, however good they were, for the sake of saving time.

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Martin, not only because I heard him say the word “order” again, which brought back many happy memories from my time in the other place, but because, given that he talked about how well British Waterways was operating in Scotland through development and the various uses of the canals to which he referred, implicit in his speech was the question of whether as a result of this transfer, which does not apply in Scotland, British Waterways will have the capacity to continue doing that work in Scotland: and, indeed, given the demise of the Inland Waterways Advisory Council, whether a voice is being lost in Scotland for the users of waterways.

The ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, around youth unemployment would have been ideal for the former future jobs fund. I shall be interested to hear whether the Minister thinks that the new youth contract will latch on to those interesting ideas about how the waterways and work around the waterways may be used.

The main point I wish to make is that these orders come from a cross-party consensus, and I was pleased that the Minister acknowledged that at the outset. I have heard from various interest groups and stakeholders about these proposals and, with the notable exception of the National Bargee Travellers Association, the feedback on the transfer has been very positive, particularly from the Inland Waterways Association and the British Marine Federation.

As we have heard, the diligence and strength already shown by the trustees of the Canal and River Trust in negotiating its 15-year funding agreement with the Government is a positive sign of things to come. It also demonstrates that many of the building blocks for the new trust are now in place and ready for the transfer. Clearly there is good potential now for improved governance and for new income sources to be developed for our waterways with, I hope, a reduced cost base and, as we heard from the Minister, an increased engagement by volunteers.

I also pay tribute to the work of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and, in particular, to its first report, which went into these issues in some detail. It reminded us of the tests that we should deploy when considering these orders, which arise from the Public Bodies Act, including the tests of efficiency, effectiveness, economy and accountability. The report ran through those issues in a helpful way. As the committee has set out, the tests of efficiency and effectiveness broadly revolve around how well stakeholders will be engaged. As I have said, I am comfortable with that.

However, we have now heard from a number of speakers in the debate about the concerns that have been raised with me and many others by the 5,000 to 10,000 itinerant boat dwellers who live on our canals. I look forward to what the Minister has to say on that issue because it also touches on the third test of accountability. The deputy chair of the National Bargee Travellers Association, Pamela Smith, in her e-mail to me—which I am sure many others have received—set out some of the details of the transfer of powers. She said:

“If the transfer takes place, the Canal and River Trust will have powers to make subordinate legislation; powers of forcible entry, search and seizure; powers to compel the giving of evidence and powers whose exercise will necessarily affect the liberty of an individual. Our homes will be at greater risk after the transfer”.

She said that they have no legal recognition or protection for their homes and that the transfer of British Waterways to the Canal and River Trust will remove the minimal protection of their homes that derives from the parliamentary scrutiny of British Waterways. It is obviously quite serious if that group of 5,000 to 10,000 people feel that there will be less accountability as a result of these transfers.

When the Minister responds, I would be grateful if he could comment on the role of the Waterways Ombudsman in helping to deal with some of these matters. Given that we are about to go into Committee tomorrow on the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill, has the Minister given any consideration to a code of conduct for the new trust in respect of its relationship with this group of boat dwellers? With such a code, the ombudsman could then police for us. Would that help to give that community some reassurance about the operation of the trust?

The third of the tests that the committee reminded us of was that of economy. I was pleased to hear the Minister give a commitment to meet its request for a Written Ministerial Statement on the financial position of the new body two years after the trust has formed.

Finally, I should not let the passing of the Inland Waterways Advisory Council go without comment. Reading between the lines of the committee’s first report, I noted that it did not see that much of a case had been made for its abolition and looked forward to the Minister setting out more detail, which to some extent he has already done. I will be interested to know how stakeholders will be heard from in policy-making. However, I shall not die in a ditch over IWAC because, in my single year of being the Canals and Waterways Minister at Defra, I do not recall getting any real input from it. It can perhaps pass, therefore, without too much mourning. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is always good to hear from a former Minister about his experience of his portfolio. I understand the points that noble Lords have made, but I am also gratified by the fact that these statutory instruments have received widespread support in what they seek to achieve. That is a reflection of the fact that Parliament has felt that there is a role for a new form of governance for British Waterways, and the CRT represents just that.

I have a number of points to make, which I could rattle off in one go but it might be better to refer to them as best I can as I summarise the debate. There may be some things that I miss, in which case I hope that those behind me will remind me of them so that I might at least write to noble Lords.

The welcome given to the orders by the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, reinforced the view of the Grand Committee that they are proper orders to be presenting to Parliament. It was good to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, his understanding of what the Government are seeking to achieve. We are looking at the possibility of bringing the Environment Agency’s waterways into the Canal and River Trust. I spent Friday afternoon at Black Sluice on the South Forty-Foot Drain, which is an example of the way in which the agency has provided for waterways users. It has built a lock at that sluice, and plans for that area and the Haven at Boston will mean that there should be increased use.

The Fenland waterways partnership represents important recognition that the Fenland waterways, which have relatively underused water courses, can be developed in this way. There is logic in that development, and we look forward to working with the Environment Agency and the noble Lord on achieving that. He was right, too, to tell us that there are important elements of flood risk management in the management of canals and, if we dare cast our minds back three or four months to when we talked about this, water management and supply. It is important that these elements are part and parcel of that. Leisure use is of course very important and will be the way in which most people judge these developments, but other aspects of policy will look to the waterways for other reasons.

On the creation of the CRT, I reassure the Committee about its transparency and openness; that is what it is about. We have set up a governance structure through the board of trustees, the council and the waterways partnership that is inclusive and gives all interested parties an opportunity to be represented and have their voices heard. I reassure my noble friend Lady Parminter that the council has four directly elected boaters within its ranks. It is not designed to be an exclusive body; it is inclusive in its very essence.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the NBTA. I understand that this group has been vociferous in trying to bring its particular concerns before Parliament, but I hope that it in turn is reassured, as the Committee will be, that the CRT is actually setting up a small advisory committee to advise senior managers responsible for boating and navigation matters—on a less permanent basis than the IWAC, I might say, but it will include at least one boater without a home mooring. I hope that his or her understanding, and the campaigns that they will be able to bring to that advisory committee, will be in the interests of itinerant live-aboard boaters.

It is important to emphasise to my noble friend Lady Parminter and indeed others that the rights of boat dwellers will not be removed or weaken as a result of this transfer order. The Human Rights Act, the Equality Act and the Freedom of Information Act will all apply to the CRT as it carries out its statutory functions. It will be a charity that seeks to engage with all its stakeholders, and there will be opportunities at every level of the organisation for stakeholders to be involved. It will be up to members of the public who are passionate about the waterways and want to get involved to get engaged with the CRT through its governance structure. I have already mentioned the advisory committees, which will have the responsibility for advising on boating and navigation matters.

I think that I have covered the point about resident boat owners. Their rights are contained in statute in the British Waterways Acts, not the charity’s articles of association. A number of noble Lords asked if I could reassure them on that; I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, discussed the question of the Inland Waterways Advisory Committee. His personal anecdote reinforced the Government’s belief that we are doing the right thing in abolishing it, and his noble friend Lord Grantchester, who cannot be in his place now, made the same point. While it is right that the IWAC is abolished, though, I thank its members for their commitment and service. I hope that they will, as other noble Lords have suggested, engage with the CRT to enable the trust to benefit from their expertise in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I have since discovered that the future jobs fund did provide jobs for a number of people, including 56 young people who worked on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, for which the fund won an award. Perhaps the Skills Minister will be pleased to learn of the success of that previous scheme and will look at ways for it to be replicated using the Groundwork charity.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Here was I thinking we were in the vanguard of new ideas, but now I discover that we are actually trundling along behind. None the less, I shall still make sure that that is done.

Finally, I am delighted that HRH the Prince of Wales has agreed to be the trust’s patron. It is wonderful that the CRT canal boat was in the jubilee pageant, along with 60 others. I believe that we are achieving something very different and exciting for our historic and much-loved waterways, and that they will be cared for by future generations as a result.

Motion agreed.

Inland Waterways Advisory Council (Abolition) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Inland Waterways Advisory Council (Abolition) Order 2012.

Relevant documents: 58th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010-12; 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12; 1st and 4th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

Motion agreed.

Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Tabled By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders laid before the House on 27 February and 26 March be approved.

Relevant documents: 56th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010-12; 42nd and 44th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12; considered in Grand Committee on 28 May.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move the first two Motions standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor on the Order Paper en bloc.

British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Tabled By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders be referred to a Grand Committee.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move the second two Motions standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor on the Order Paper en bloc.

Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order.

Relevant documents: 44th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, in November last year, Ministers made a Statement in the other place on the Thames tunnel. This included our plans to introduce an order amending Section 14 of the Planning Act 2008, which would classify proposed major sewer projects as nationally significant infrastructure projects, or NSIPs for short. This Section 14 order is before your Lordships today.

We conducted a 12-week public consultation on the draft order last summer and published its summary of responses in January this year. More than 900 organisations and individuals were consulted about our proposals. The consultation documents were publicly available on Defra’s website, and two question-and-answer drop-in sessions for the public were held at Defra’s offices. We received a total of 44 responses to the consultation. The majority were from local planning authorities and individuals near to potential construction sites for the Thames tunnel project proposed by Thames Water. The outcome of the consultation showed that the draft order itself was not opposed. What opposition there was came mostly from local people living near proposed Thames tunnel construction sites. They were concerned that local planning authorities were being excluded from the streamlined NSIP planning application process.

The order would perform two functions. First, it would extend the categories of NSIPs to include major sewer developments with a capacity of 350,000 cubic metres or more. Secondly, it would allow public consultations that are carried out on such proposals before being designated as NSIPs to be treated as part of the planning application process as if they had indeed been classed as NSIPs.

The main advantage of classifying proposed major sewers as nationally significant infrastructure projects is that they would benefit from the existing streamlined NSIP planning application process under the Planning Act 2008. This involves a single application to the Planning Inspectorate for a development consent order.

The NSIP planning application process ensures that local authorities and local communities are included as an essential part of the whole process, enabling them to submit representations to the Planning Inspectorate as part of its consideration of an application. Democratic accountability is built into the system, with Ministers making the final decision on such applications at the end of the 12-month process, taking account of the recommendations of the Planning Inspectorate.

The planning application process for proposed major sewers was considered in February 2011 by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee as part of its scrutiny of the waste water national policy statement. The committee found it inconsistent that major sewer developments were not included as NSIPs alongside major new sewage treatment works within the Planning Act 2008. The committee recommended that the situation be rectified accordingly.

The order before your Lordships today meets that recommendation. It does not specifically refer to the Thames tunnel project. However, this is currently the only proposed major sewer development that would meet the threshold of the order. In the future there may be other such projects and so it is right that an appropriate legislative framework is in place to ensure that they too can progress with as little unnecessary delay as possible.

As far as the Thames tunnel is concerned, the waste water national policy statement was approved by Parliament and designated on 26 March. This sets out the need for the Thames tunnel as the most cost-effective, timely and comprehensive solution currently available to the problem of significant ongoing sewage pollution into the River Thames in London, when compared with the alternatives. It will enhance the ecology of the river and is estimated to directly employ around 4,200 people in its construction and in related sector works, with an estimated several thousand secondary jobs in the supply chain and wider London economy. Thames Water has set itself a target of employing local workers to make up to 20% of its tunnel construction workforce.

I know that many of your Lordships have firmly held views on the merits or otherwise of the Thames tunnel and I look forward to this debate during which, no doubt, many of these views will be put forward. However, I ask your Lordships to bear it in mind that the order may apply not only to the Thames tunnel but also to any similar major sewer projects that may be brought forward in the future. I commend the draft order to the House.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, there is clearly widespread support for this order, as the Minister said. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in another place recommended that the Government go down this route and the responses to the consultation contained widespread support, including from the local authorities that would be affected by the Thames tunnel proposals. Therefore, on this side of the coalition, we support the order. It is important to remind ourselves why it is being brought forward. It is not about trying to speed up any decisions; it is about making a process that is timely and minimises unnecessary cost but remains democratically accountable.

This is a new type of engagement for the public in terms of how they respond to major sewer proposals; in the past DCLG has been very good at public education campaigns about how the public can engage which allays fears that these are processes that are somehow to speed things up and stop them being involved. Will the Minister be speaking to his colleagues in DCLG to ensure that a proper public consultation campaign is undertaken so that people realise how they can engage in this new major infrastructure order?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords,

“Infrastructure investment is vital to the UK economy and jobs”.

That is the first sentence in the background paper to the order today. It is wonderful to hear the Minister speak to it and, as we have been reminding him and his Government constantly, place it at the top of the action for growth agenda. This order is coming forward just before the Recess. The Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill was scheduled for the day before the Easter Recess. From this side, we welcome them at whatever time. We will very much take these orders as a quasi-Committee stage—as a Committee stage was denied to the water industry Bill as a money Bill—to follow up the progress of activity.

This order fulfils the recommendation in the EFRA committee report on the draft waste water national policy statement that the Government should bring forward proposals to amend the Planning Act 2008 to bring large-scale sewerage infrastructure, such as the Thames tunnel, within the planning regime for nationally significant infrastructure projects. As the Minister said in his introduction, this order is concerned with the construction and alteration of infrastructure for waste water. Currently, around 39 million cubic metres of waste water enters the Thames every year from London’s combined sewage overflows. When storm water capacity is exceeded, they discharge. On average, that happens once a week. The urgency of the work as a health hazard and to improve the environment is increased by the infraction proceedings being pursued against the UK by the European Commission for breaches of the directive.

Is there any update the Minister could give since the passing of the Bill in March? Is he now more confident that the scheme will be fit for purpose for the long haul? Is there an outcome he can share from the consultation undertaken by Thames Water Limited in the early months of this year, a measure spoken to by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, who also asked questions about the costs and outcomes of the scheme? It is very encouraging that the amendment to Section 35 of the Planning Act 2008 came into force in April instead of in December this year. The memorandum points out in its policy options analysis that this will save costs: each month’s reduction in time will save in the region of £5 million.

I thank the Minister for his letter following the passage of the Bill in March. I shall follow it up with a few questions for information on the detail of the order today. The memorandum lists the groups contacted in the consultation process undertaken last year on the capacity threshold of 35,000 cubic metres and indicates 62% agreement with the threshold and 73% agreement with the proposed supplemental provisions. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, mentioned the local groups established in response to the Thames tunnel proposals. Will the Minister give an indication of the percentage agreement of community groups within the overall figures? Can we be assured that the worried section of the population, apart from all the relevant authorities and planning associations, is on the whole happy with the proposal? I know the Minister mentioned this in his opening remarks.

On the capacity threshold, will the Minister indicate what increase in capacity over today is indicated by 35,000 cubic metres? What level of occurrence will overwhelm this capacity? Has there been any assessment of what increases in households the system will adequately cover or for how long, assuming all other activity remains the same?

From our debate on the Bill in March, the Minister will know that we look to encourage many more water efficiency proposals to come forward: to separate out as far as possible water runoff from the sewerage system; to reduce the replacement of gardens and green space with paved areas; to replace hard non-permeable surfaces with porous materials; and, last but not least, to encourage measures to reduce household consumption of water. Can the Minister update the Committee today on any of those aspects since the Bill’s passage?

The memorandum also outlines the fact that 350,000 cubic metres capacity was informed by experience of large projects. Could the Minister explain what is meant in the memorandum when it says that in the next 10 years the proposed Thames tunnel has an estimated capacity of 1,580,000 metres? The memorandum also mentions the reviews of the scheme into the future. May I ask that the Minister builds into that regime a review to be implemented as any overspill occurs? That will underline that the hygiene problems of London are to be consigned to the past.

Finally, in a debate on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, we called for apprenticeships to be set up and included in the project. We welcome the remarks made by the Minister on future projects in his opening statement. With all that said, we agree to take note of the orders today.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it has been an interesting if fairly brief debate and exchange of views that I hope will inform your Lordships for future occasions. I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that perhaps it might be useful to have a meeting of Peers and those at Defra some time in the autumn where we can bring together all those matters. A debate such as this has helped considerably to bring to the fore some of the issues that are being considered by government. After all, there is a contingent liability to government in the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill in these matters, and those are not undertaken lightly or without the Government having a proper care of what is involved.

As I said in my opening speech, it is appropriate that the issue of this order amending Section 14 of the Planning Act 2008 should be separate from the specific matter of the Thames tunnel. However, I do understand that the Thames tunnel is the only one that fits the Bill at the moment. So we have two elements to the debate today—one about the statutory instrument before us, which I have commended to the Committee, and the other about the broader issues. I hope that I can indulge the Grand Committee by talking about Thames tunnel matters, because it is clearly a public platform.

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Parminter for her general support for this project. As I say, it is not something that the Government have entered into lightly. Indeed, it is of course Thames Water that is entering into the project; the Government are providing a framework against which they can make their application. I assure her that Thames Water expects to commence its publicity notice in mid-July, which will publicise the impending planning application in early 2013. There has been a lot of public liaison by Thames Water itself, but of course that will mean that the consultation on the planning process opens up formally at that time.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whose professional and parliamentary expertise on matters of tunnels I respect, mentions the Binnie report. Our view is that the environmental criteria set in 2007 remain robust; they are not gold-plated in any way, and we cannot afford to downgrade them. Alternatives such as a western tunnel or a piecemeal approach—and I do not mean that in a derogative sense—which the noble Lord recommended, showed that there can be considerable problems. None of the alternatives identified during the extensive studies carried out over the past decade has been able to deal swiftly and adequately with the true environmental and health objectives of the Thames Tideway, while at the same time complying with statutory obligations. For example, separate rainwater from foul water sewerage systems would be far more costly, possibly £12 billion. It would be extremely disruptive and would take far too long to complete.

The shorter west London tunnel coupled with green infrastructure measures would still not fully reduce the volume and frequency of discharges either sufficiently or quickly, so we would not, in fact, be able to meet the environmental and health objectives.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that response. I have heard that statement from him and others before. But this kind of thing needs debating. Nobody is quite sure what standard is trying to be achieved that would meet either UK or European legislation because we do not know what the European Court will say. I hope that that is something we can talk about in the meeting in the autumn and I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to that meeting.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It would be useful. I am satisfied that Defra has thought this matter through. Clearly, at the current stage of the economic cycle, we are not looking to spend money that it is beyond the capacity of this Government to endorse. I will come on to the European Court in relation to that. The interim measures, as I said, will not meet the waste water directive. That is one of the difficulties. We have to consider the urban waste water directive. The proposal to construct a tunnel should be sufficient to avoid fines completely if it is delivered to the planned timetable.

Within that process, it is important for the noble Lord to understand that although we expect a judgment concerning London in the next few months, if we lose and the European Commission wishes to pursue fines because it does not think that we are addressing the issue properly, it needs to return to the Court for further judgment. The Court has wide discretion about the levels of fines depending on several factors including the seriousness and the duration of the breach. In this case, we would expect the level of fines against the UK to be significant and set at a level to act as an incentive to remedy that breach as quickly as possible. But fines would be levied until the breach is rectified. Currently, the proposed Thames tunnel offers the solution most likely to rectify the problem within the shortest time.

We cannot prejudge this issue, but clearly we are seeking to address it. It has arisen over a century or more of the growth of London and the growth in its sewage. Much of our sewerage infrastructure was built by Bazalgette 150 years ago and is clearly no longer capable of coping.

I think that I have covered those questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and I now wonder if I have some points to help the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I am grateful for his contribution, which was supportive of the process that the statutory instrument is trying to bring about. Indeed, he is grateful for the Government tabling this debate because it is something that the Opposition have supported in the past.

There is no question of us seeking to curtail debate. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that. The money Bill was a money Bill and we were not able to debate that further. I hope that he is happy with the suggestion I made to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. There were a number of detailed questions that he asked me and I hope that he will forgive me if I write to him on those matters. I can make sure that other noble Lords who spoke in the debate get a copy of that letter.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am grateful to the Minister for offering a meeting in the autumn so that we can get to grips with some of these more pertinent matters.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord very much for that suggestion. I conclude my remarks by saying that the order will help to prevent some of the indecision and delay that has gone on around many of these projects and the additional costs incurred by them. I hope that it will prove to be of utility for this Government and future governments.

Motion agreed.

Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances (Abolition) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances (Abolition) Order 2012.

Relevant documents: 56th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010-12; 42nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to introduce the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances (Abolition) Order 2012, to add to the points that were made in the explanatory document accompanying the order.

This is an order to be made under the Public Bodies Act 2011—a number of noble Lords will have fond memories of that piece of legislation. It reflects one of the outcomes of the Government’s programme of reform for public bodies. The order will abolish the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances and pave the way for the reconstitution of its successor as an expert scientific committee.

I reiterate that this is not an attempt on the Government’s part to stem the flow of impartial and independent scientific advice on hazardous substances. We want this advice to continue, but we want to improve the process. We firmly believe this reform to be necessary and that there will be benefits from the successor committee operating in a different way, while of course retaining its independence.

We need new arrangements to reflect wider changes in the regulatory landscape for hazardous substances since the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances was set up, more than 20 years ago. We need to establish a broader, more strategic and proactive role for the successor committee in that landscape while meeting the continuing need for independent expert scientific advice in this area.

At the same time, we have taken a considered view of how better to manage scientific advice and evidence in my department. In particular, as an expert scientific committee, the successor body to the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances will work in a more co-ordinated and peer-reviewed environment under the purview of our Chief Scientific Adviser and our Science Advisory Council.

The rationale for this reform was, of course, articulated in the context of the passage of the Public Bodies Act in which we sought powers to abolish the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances. We also consulted widely, as required by the Act, on the future of the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances and, as we reported, there was clear public support for our proposals. We also have the full support of the devolved Administrations and have secured the required clearance from the devolved legislatures for the order.

I believe that we have this support because we have given thought to the successor arrangements, as I will explain shortly, in relation to the terms of reference for the expert scientific committee that will replace the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances. It has been decided, subject to the coming into force of the order, that the successor body will be known as the Hazardous Substances Advisory Committee. This will avoid confusion with the existing committee, which will have been abolished, and mark the start of the new enhanced arrangements.

I turn to the report of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee and give the assurance to the Committee that in future all Defra orders deriving from the Public Bodies Act will carry the preface in their title, “public bodies”. This is a specific request of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee so that the statutory instruments can be clearly identified.

In its consideration of the order, the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee, now of course renamed as the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, concluded that my department’s case for the order probably just crossed the statutory threshold for the exercise of public functions. I believe that our case is stronger than this and that this order, and the new arrangements which will follow it, will deliver the benefits that we anticipate. We have listened to the committee and responded to it, and as part of these new arrangements, and in anticipation of the order coming into force, I have agreed new terms of reference and, as I mentioned earlier, a new name for the successor body. I know from the report that there is particular interest in these terms of reference, with their central importance for ensuring that the new committee can operate in a truly independent manner. The report invited Ministers to say whether these terms of reference have been agreed in a form that will address the committee’s concerns. I believe that they have. I have arranged to share with the committee my recent correspondence with Professor Stephen Holgate, the chairman of the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances, on this matter. As chairman-designate of the successor body, Professor Holgate has welcomed these new terms of reference, which are those recorded in the report of what we must now refer to as the Scrutiny Committee, as part of the information which my officials provided to assist consideration of the order. The only change made, for greater clarity, was to separate out in two supporting protocols the committee’s relationships with our Chief Scientific Adviser and Science Advisory Council, and with Ministers. We are getting ready for this change, and to this end I commend the draft order to the House.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the Minister and to have heard him talk about public bodies again, as the father of the Public Bodies Bill through this House. What a joy it is to hear him talk about it. Even though I disliked the Bill intensely, I enjoyed the way in which he steered it through this House and the way in which he listened. I am sure that he will continue to listen as we talk about some of the detail in these SIs.

I am also grateful to the Merits Committee, as was, for its 56th report on this order. As I understand it, it was the third order made under the Public Bodies Act that has been considered by the Merits Committee. As we know, the committee did not recommend it for the enhanced scrutiny procedure—we have one of those coming shortly—but made it clear that this was a close decision, as the Minister has said. In paragraph 18, the committee said that it,

“struggles to see much discernible benefit in the proposals”.

It describes the case for the order as “far from compelling” and says that,

“it probably just crosses the statutory threshold”.

I accept that the Minister thinks that it does a little bit better than just crossing the threshold, but it is important that that is noted.

The committee poses questions for the Minister to answer in the debate. In particular, it points to evidence from the Royal Society of Chemistry recalling that Parliament and especially this House insisted in 1989-90 that the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances was established as a statutory committee. This was to ensure that Ministers and officials took proper scientific advice before taking decisions on controls on hazardous substances.

Let me put the questions implied by the committee. I am grateful, through signalling, that I have gone first. I thought it would be helpful to the Minister’s in-flight refuelling if I were to answer the questions first to give maximum time for the fuel to surge through to the Minister. First, the current cost of the advisory committee is £30,000 per annum. Will the new body cost the same or less than that £30,000 and how much will the preparation form passing the order cost the department in staff time and Parliament in printing and staff costs? That will give us a rough idea of whether this move is good value for money.

Secondly, how will the Minister ensure that the newly constituted committee will, in the words of the code of practice for scientific advisory committees, be able to,

“operate free of influence from the sponsor department officials or Ministers, and remain clear that their function is wider than simply providing evidence just to support departmental policy”?

Thirdly, the framework proposed by the Government is as follows—I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. The new body is to operate within a closer network of expert scientific committees overseen by Defra’s Chief Scientific Adviser—the Minister has said as much in his comments—and is to be supported by its Scientific Advisory Council, the SAC. The chair is to meet Defra’s Chief Scientific Adviser at least annually to discuss its work. The chair is to attend the annual meeting of Defra’s Scientific Advisory Committee.

Fourthly, there is to be routine reporting by the new advisory committee after its quarterly meetings—it is worth knowing to whom—in addition to its reports on specific projects and its annual report. There is also to be other reporting to Ministers by the Chief Scientific Adviser and the Scientific Advisory Committee on the new body’s work. Ministers are to set and change the new body’s terms of reference—we have heard some discussion of that—and will possibly attend its meetings from time to time. I would be grateful if it could be confirmed that that is all correct. If that is all correct, what independence is left to the committee? Is not the price of better co-ordination and peer review that the Minister mentioned in his opening comments a loss of independence? The form of the set of questions is: what is the problem to which the Government’s proposal is the solution? For example, on which scientific initiatives have Ministers been less well advised than they would wish? Which scientific developments has the present committee overlooked?

Fifthly, the Government’s case for improved accountability and independence of advice hinges in part, as the Merits Committee and the Minister have said, on the proposed new terms of reference. Have they now been agreed in a form that would support this objective, as the Merits Committee requested? Will the Minister share with us the correspondence he referred to with the incoming chair?

Sixthly, if the current terms of reference in the Environmental Protection Act 1990 are out of date, could they not have been changed or a power inserted in the Act to amend them by statutory instrument subject to parliamentary approval? Seventhly, is not the key to these proposals that whereas the terms of reference for the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances are set out in statute and thus decided by Parliament, in future they will be set and amended by the Secretary of State? How will that be subject to transparency and scrutiny? Why was Parliament right in 1989-90 to insist that the committee was statutory, but wrong now?

Finally, if the purpose of the proposal is not increased ministerial control, is the real explanation that the Government want to be seen to be culling quangos—in the end the motivation for the Public Bodies Act—but because the Advisory Committee performs a sufficiently important role, it is keeping the members and staff intact and simply making an appearance of change? Should the Cabinet Minister responsible for public bodies not be watching this very carefully? This feels like business as usual. A name has been rejigged with a few words in a different order, but everything continues as normal with no real financial saving. In the end, a headline two years ago about culling quangos now has to be delivered and is taking up parliamentary time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, this has been a good debate. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, about some of the detailed questions he asked me, but I will be writing to him anyway because I would like to share the correspondence we have had with Professor Stephen Holgate and there is no reason why the terms of reference for the new body should not be included with the correspondence as that is what it was principally about.

The most important element of all this is accountability. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Knight, will agree, and my noble friend Lady Parminter knows from her experience, that science is highly valued in Defra. It is a science-based department. Indeed, our science and technology committee produced a report on the way in which departments handle their science, and Defra came out of it very well.

I see science as being at the heart of this. Ministers’ engagement in the science is also very important. That is why I have attended a number of these bodies during the relatively short time I have been in the department. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that I intend to attend not only the Scientific Advisory Committee but the committees that will be sitting under the framework of the Scientific Advisory Committee. I have regular meetings with the chief scientist. It is important that in an evidence-based department, which Defra inevitably is, Ministers are, as much as possible, scientifically literate and capable of being advised directly. I value independence, and there is no suggestion that the closeness of this body within the Defra family is designed to reduce that independence. The terms of reference make it quite clear that the department requires independent advice and wants to be able to be advised from a position of scientific authority about what it is best for the department to do. Political decisions have to be made on the basis of that advice, but it is the most important thing. The chairman and the committee are therefore responsible to the Scientific Advisory Committee and the Chief Scientific Adviser, as well as being responsible to the Minister. That is important to bear in mind.

This order is part of a wider package and is the first of a number of bodies within Defra where we are hoping to take advantage of what we believe is a better structure to bring into effect this particular body of our family. We do not think that there will be any saving in terms of money on this matter. There will be some consultation on the terms of reference. If noble Lords feel that they have comments to make, they would be perfectly correct to do so. The new committee will not wait to give advice; it gives advice, and Ministers are responsible for their reaction to that advice. The committee does not have to wait until it is asked before that happens. I am happy to share the terms of reference with noble Lords who are present—I have already given that commitment, as noble Lords would expect me to.

I have commended the statutory instrument to the Grand Committee and I hope that it will be supported.

Motion agreed.

Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord De Mauley]

That the draft orders be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

Water: National Grid

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to facilitate the establishment of a national water grid.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, our water White Paper set out the challenge of ensuring resilient and sustainable water resources in the face of increasing pressure from climate change and population growth. We need to use existing water resources more efficiently, develop new sources and build connectivity across the network. Water companies are already joining up sources of supply to build resilience. We are working closely with Ofwat and the Environment Agency to encourage further connectivity and to promote bulk water trading.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, by 5 April over half the country will be subject to drought orders. I know that the Minister understands the gravity of the situation but perhaps I may press him further. Will he and his departmental colleagues, as a matter of priority, bring forward a national plan—whether it is called a network or a grid, I really do not mind—so that for the future all parts of the country have an adequate water supply?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend is aware, much has already been done by water companies to improve interconnectivity. My noble friend asked about a plan. We are encouraging water companies to include provision for better interconnectivity in the next price review round, which is due to complete in 2014. This is potentially much more cost-effective than creating a national grid and it will help to address the problem of imbalances in water availability across the country. We need Ofwat to get the incentives right so that water trading is economically attractive for water companies.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the statement made by the noble Lord a few hours ago in this Chamber, when he indicated that any proposals to secure additional water supplies from Wales would go ahead only with the agreement of the National Assembly as water is a devolved matter. That being so, will he also confirm that there will be a Barnett consequential for the expenditure undertaken as a result of the Bill passed last night that would be relevant to Wales?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord made a valuable contribution to last night’s debate. The point I was making concerned the construction of new reservoir capacity, rather than taking water from existing reservoirs, and I think I should make that clear. I am not fully briefed on how the Barnett formula might apply in respect of the Bill which this House passed last night and any arrangements that might be made with Wales, so I cannot help the noble Lord on that point. However, I shall write to him if he will allow me to do so.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is not one of the more obvious benefits of our EU membership the fact that we have been forced to spend at least £65,000 million, or £65 billion, on three EU water purification directives when there was nothing wrong with our water before? No one was getting tummy ache. Would not that sum now be useful for infrastructure and supply?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I cannot accept the noble Lord’s premise. The Government owe it to all consumers to make sure that the water is of the highest standards and there can be no derogation from that obligation. The noble Lord is quite right that infrastructure costs money, but the water companies can be incentivised to provide just that.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, what importance do the Government give to some of the work being undertaken at, for example, the University of Leeds on the development of water-free washing machines and at other institutions on water-free lavatories? Is not the effort on finding ways of using much less water worthy of a great deal of investment?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend makes a very good point, indicating that water efficiency is one of the key strategies which it is in all our interests to pursue, particularly at this time when drought threatens a good deal of the country. That and water capture and storage are strategies which individuals and businesses can undertake for themselves.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Does the Minister recall that the last time the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, invented a statistic regarding the water directive—in this case, £65 billion—he got his arithmetic wrong, as he subsequently acknowledged, by a factor of 1,000? Does the Minister think that the same is likely to apply on this occasion?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot possibly comment on the accuracy of the mathematics of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. He has placed a figure before the House and, of course, is accountable for what he has suggested, but I cannot comment on it.

[Baroness O’Cathain]

Will the noble Lord tell us whether progress has been made on the things that we can change now rather than the things that will take 20, 30 or 40 years? For example, what progress has been made on stopping the leaks, and what proportion of water is actually lost through leakage every year?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, as part of the Government’s drought summit, water companies are committed to reducing water losses and increasing leakage detection. It is important to say that leakage cannot be eliminated altogether. Even new pipes can leak, but water companies have leakage targets to move them to a sustainable, economic level of leakage. Leakage has fallen by nearly 40 per cent since the mid-1990s and is expected to fall by a further 3 per cent in the next three years.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, what progress is being made on the proposal to build a new large reservoir in the Abingdon area—I think that it is in Oxfordshire?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I know nothing of that proposal so I am not in a position to answer the noble Lord’s question. Reservoir capacity is important, of course, but even more important is the opportunity to connect up existing river resources and water resources so that they are available across water companies. That is the point that I wanted to make in response to my noble friend’s Question.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, we pipe and store gas and oil around the country, so why not water? The Roman aqueducts did it 2,000 years ago. The Minister previously cited the difficulty in getting water uphill. Quite so, and no doubt the £30 billion or so cost of establishing a grid is also an issue. Why cannot we use wind turbines to push the water uphill? Is not the provision of water a far greater and essential benefit to one and all, rather than getting a few people to Birmingham a few minutes earlier? We should get our priorities right.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is possible to achieve both but it is not possible to make water flow uphill as my noble friend rightly points out. I would use the analogy that the amount of money that my noble friend is prepared to spend to put petrol in the tank of his motor car is a great deal more than he would be prepared to pay to fill his bath with water. Some of the difficulty comes from the fact that we as a country do not recognise the importance of water and value it enough.