Ash Dieback

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

We will hear from the Lib Dems.

[Baroness Parminter]

I thank the Chief Whip. The Minister mentioned local authorities. What are the Government doing to support cash-strapped local authorities, which face huge bills for felling dangerous trees alongside roads and railways and in our towns and cities?

Ivory Bill

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Ivory Bill, has consented to place her interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

Brexit: Food Prices

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, it is Labour’s turn.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that his words stating that the Government are aware of the impact of rising food prices on the poorest people in the country have a hollow ring? To be aware of the problem and pursue policies that worsen the situation is a very evil act. Many of these families are suffering enormously because of the Government’s policies. Will the Minister take back the message that nobody wants to see this deprivation continue and that all benefits should be increased to account for the increase in the cost of food?

Public Bodies (Abolition of the Commission for Rural Communities) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that is has considered the Public Bodies (Abolition of the Commission for Rural Communities) Order 2012.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to debate the draft order, which is made under the Public Bodies Act 2011. It reflects oneof the outcomes of the Government’s programme of reform for public bodies. The order will abolish the Commission for Rural Communities—the CRC—and finalise the consolidation of rural policy functions within Defra.

I take this opportunity to thank the commission, Dr Stuart Burgess and his team of commissioners for their commitment to the well-being of rural communities. I also thank them for the constructive way in which they have continued to work in liaison with Defra’s rural communities policy unit. I would expect no less of Dr Burgess, who I know, and for whom I have the highest regard.

The rationale for this reform was articulated during the passage of the Public Bodies Act, in which we sought powers to abolish the CRC. We consulted widely, as required by the Act, on both the new rural policy functions within Defra and the abolition of the CRC. Of the 41 responses received, 12 individuals and organisations supported abolition, 12 respondents were opposed and 17 did not expressly support or oppose abolition.

We firmly believe this reform to be necessary. Placing rural interests at the heart of government, led and championed by Defra Ministers, will allow us to shape and influence policy across Whitehall at an early stage. The abolition of the CRC is not a decision that the Government have taken simply to reduce costs or to reduce attention to rural issues. It is a decision that will remove duplication, improve effectiveness and enable resources to be more effectively deployed.

Although not the primary driver, there will, of course, be financial savings to be made as a result of this reform. These are considerable: net savings of £17 million over the period of this CSR. This is a Government, from the Prime Minister down, with strong rural credentials. We have clear and bold ambitions for our rural areas. The abolition of the CRC paves the way for Defra’s Ministers to bring forward new, more effective, approaches to ensuring rural needs and opportunities are properly understood before decisions are made.

On 1 April 2011, the rural communities policy unit—the RCPU—a centre of rural expertise, was created in Defra. The RCPU is designed to engage more effectively, and at an earlier stage, in the development of policy across government. For example, it is brigaded alongside the team working on and delivering the RDPE, which is Defra’s key funding stream for the rural economy.

Noble Lords will be aware that in consideration of the order, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee recommended that the rural statement should set out not only government-wide policy intentions but robust structures for incorporating stakeholder input into policy development and implementation. We agree with and support this recommendation fully. The rural statement will underline our commitment to rural England. It reflects our vision for successful rural businesses and thriving rural communities, and is based around three key priorities. The first is economic growth: we want rural businesses to make a sustainable contribution to national growth. The second is rural engagement: we want to engage directly with rural communities so that they can see that the Government are on their side. The last is quality of life: we want rural people to have fair access to public services and to be actively engaged in shaping the places in which they live.

We accept and recognise that a two-way communication with rural stakeholders and communities is crucial to developing better policies and delivering more effective outcomes. As our Explanatory Memorandum highlighted, we want to continue to engage proactively and positively with partners, including local government networks, civil society organisations and business groups. Defra Ministers, for example, established the new rural and farming networks as a conduit to give key rural representatives and stakeholders a voice in Whitehall on behalf of their localities. Similarly, the RCPU has regular engagement with the Rural Coalition. This engagement has ensured that advice from experienced practitioners has fed in to changes in the planning system, housing and the economy. Through this regular engagement, Defra Ministers and policy officials across government are able to have present-time dialogue with those who represent the concerns and interests of rural communities. We encourage this dialogue to be as open and as frank as possible, as we see it as a mechanism for delivering good policy.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee also recommended that the rural statement should provide specific details of the steps that the Government intend to take to deliver independent scrutiny of rural-proofing. Again, we agree with the broad thrust of this recommendation. Defra supports rural-proofing by providing advice, guidance and support to policy officials across government. Alongside this commitment, we will publish new rural-proofing guidance materials in September. The rural statement will outline our commitment to commissioning an external review of the impact of the new rural-proofing package, to be undertaken in summer 2013.

Importantly, Defra Ministers will also be accountable to Parliament for the way that they fulfil their role as Rural Champions. Noble Lords will be aware that the EFRA Select Committee is currently undertaking its inquiry into rural communities. It is focusing on the role of the RCPU, rural grants and funding and rural-proofing—all part of government policy. My ministerial colleagues and I welcome the attention that this is placing on both the role of the RCPU and our efforts to ensure that all government departments are giving adequate attention to rural-proofing their policy and decision-making. This is an important opportunity to demonstrate both our commitment and our actions toward supporting the interests of those living and working in rural areas.

This is a good reform heralding a new and exciting era for our rural communities. I firmly believe that this is the right way forward, and that this order, and the new arrangements we have put in place with the RCPU, will deliver the right outcomes for rural communities. To this end, I commend the draft order to the Grand Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

I have a small issue, also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about who will actually speak up for the disadvantaged communities in our rural areas. That is where both previous incumbents of the role of rural advocate, on that single issue, have made a real impact. That is what we need to focus on—what we want the rural advocate to be doing. What are the single issues on which we feel that an extra voice is really needed? I look back to what the noble Lord, Lord Henley, said in the debate in the House on 23 March last year. He said that if an independent advocate was needed again, the Government would of course be prepared to look at the matter if the change proved not to be as effective as they believed it would be. I believe that these changes have the potential to deliver, but there may be single issues in rural communities where we need a stronger extra voice. I hope that the Government will remain open to that idea.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, this has been a good debate, albeit a little feistier than some of the debates that we usually have within the teams that we represent. However, in some ways I am pleased that we have been able to air some of these issues. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, had a bit of fun running through Defra’s ambit and its policies, and what he perceives as being our deficiencies. However, he cannot deny that this is a Government in which those of us at Defra firmly believe that we are seeking to address issues on behalf of rural communities. “Rural affairs” may come at the end of our title, but it is not belittled by the fact that it is the last of the three key subject areas in which the department is engaged.

All noble Lords were articulating much the same issue, and it has been helpful to hear the concerns of noble Lords who have played a full part in the evolution of our rural policy. I sensed behind much of their contributions a certain insecurity about whether having only a single individual pressing the case for rural communities was the best way forward. My noble friend Lady Parminter doubted that fundamentally and I sensed the same in other contributions, because noble Lords have all been there and know it from experience.

We live in a world where independent contributions to policy formation are never missing; they are a constant presence in government. There are the external pressures and expertise of formalised bodies such as NGOs that seek always to impress their role on government. Bodies such as the CLA or the NFU on the one hand, or Unite on behalf of agricultural workers on the other, express their views. This extends across the environmental field and the fields of industry and water, where groups of individuals give advice that is independent in the sense that it is not internal to Government.

When people talk about how marvellous things were and how reports were superb in indicating rural poverty and the difficulties that many rural communities had, I say: what good did that do rural communities under the previous Government? The information was available, but were the issues addressed? I say no. The key is for the department to recognise that rural communities face particular challenges and that, unless Ministers are focused on addressing them, no independent external information provided to the department will bring effective government action to address the issues.

We have had a very useful debate. I took on board the notion of independent research and evaluation of evidence. I will take that back and write to noble Lords, explaining how Defra uses evidence, particularly the social evidence to which a number of noble Lords drew attention. Defra is the custodian of the well-being of rural communities and there are within rural communities, as I know myself, large numbers of people who do not have access to the sort of public services that we want.

I hope to noble Lords will take what I am saying as being a sincere evaluation. The key is having Ministers who recognise the issues and are prepared to argue them within the department, and with other departments, to ensure that they are addressed. That will be far more effective than hiving them off and thinking that by doing so we have taken action to address them.

I am pleased to have had a sound-off, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Knight. I, too, feel better for having been able to explain why I believe that we are doing the right thing. If we cannot persuade the Government to address the cares of rural communities, we in Defra will have failed. I do not intend to fail. I commend the order to the Grand Committee.

Motion agreed.

Public Bodies (Abolition of Regional and Local Fisheries Advisory Committees) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Public Bodies (Abolition of Regional and Local Fisheries Advisory Committees) Order 2012.

Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

Motion agreed.

Designation of Features (Appeals) (England) Regulations 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Designation of Features (Appeals) (England) Regulations 2012.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the regulations are required to be made prior to the commencement of the substantive designation provisions under Section 30 of, and Schedule 1 to, the Flood and Water Management Act 2010.

The purpose of the appeal regulations is twofold. First, they will provide a safeguard for individuals whose property is affected by designation decisions and, secondly, they will ensure that risk management authorities are accountable for their decisions and will be open to transparent, legitimate challenge from individuals about their actions. These appeal regulations provide the owners of designated assets with the right of appeal to the First-tier Tribunal against the initial designation of a structure or feature, as well as against subsequent decisions relating to applications to alter, remove or replace a designated feature or to cancel a designation. A right of appeal is also provided against the issue of an enforcement notice for contravening a designation.

The appeal regulations provide that the First-tier Tribunal will hear all appeals under Schedule 1. In order to maintain the credibility of the Act and the efficacy of the designation regime, it is important that the appeals mechanism is independent, efficient and comprehensive, and is a fair and cost-effective way of adjudicating any disputes. The process for bringing an appeal is governed both by these regulations and by the Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (General Regulatory Chamber) Rules 2009.

Perhaps I can explain the nature of the provisions. Physical defences, such as walls, embankments and natural features, are relied upon to deliver much of our flood and coastal erosion risk management. Whole communities often rely on these features and base their flood protection strategies on the assumption that they will remain in place and divert water. However, in the 2007 floods it was discovered—too late—that there were alterations to some of these third party assets and flooding resulted, for example in Sheffield and Chesterfield.

In the Flood Water Management Act 2010, provision has been made in Section 30 and Schedule 1 to allow the Environment Agency, local authorities and internal drainage boards to designate third party structures or features which affect flood or coastal erosion risk. Designation requires the owner to seek consent from the appropriate risk management authority before altering, removing or replacing the structure or feature.

These provisions are required to prevent uncontrolled damage or removal of structures or natural or manmade features of the environment that perform a flood or coastal erosion risk management function. Further details on the designation process, including appeals, can be found in the public information leaflet and the guidance document produced by Defra and laid for information with these appeal regulations.

The requirement to provide a right of appeal by way of these regulations is contained in paragraph 15 of Schedule 1. Section 30 and Schedule 1 were commenced in April last year in so far as they provide the power to make the regulations. The substantive provisions relating to the regime for the designation of structures or features cannot be implemented without the appeals regulations. The designation regime provides protection for and restrictions on private assets in the public interest. The appeals regulations provide protection for private rights affected by designation and it is a necessary balance that they do so. These appeal regulations are a necessary and appropriate statutory obligation. I therefore commend the draft regulations to the Grand Committee.

[Lord Greaves]

I do not have a great deal to say about this on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. The regulations, which the Minister has explained very well, come from the Flood and Water Management Act. I suppose this little gathering today allows a certain amount of nostalgia from some of us who were involved in the passage of that Act, as often happens with these orders. These are sensible and welcome provisions. Does this mean that the designation of features can now go ahead or is there anything else standing in the way before this process takes place? As the Minister said, it is a process that was found lacking as a result of the experience in 2007. It is welcome that the recommendation from Sir Michael Pitt’s mammoth report is now filtering its way—if that is the right word to use in connection with water—down the system and that we are now on the point of approving these regulations, which we certainly support.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, as I discovered to my cost 10 days ago, I am a property owner in an area that gets flooded and there may be something on my property that at some point might get designated, so I declare that from the outset. Clearly the instrument is associated with the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which established a process where the Environment Agency, local authority or an internal drainage board could deem a structure part of the built environment if it was acting as a flood defence, even though it might not necessarily have been designated or constructed for that purpose. We have heard that from the Minister. This is a very positive and necessary step forward in protecting our flood defence assets across the country.

I certainly know from where I live down in Dorset, where the River Wey and its tributaries got deluged 10 days ago and we had extensive flooding, that the complex arrangements of culverts and of different parts of the built environment in the Weymouth and Upwey area are interfered with at our risk. I know that the Environment Agency has done various bits of work over the last 20 years to mitigate the risk and I do not think there is much it could have done about it given the quantity of rainfall. However, I am certainly supportive of wanting to protect those assets as long as property owners get some advice from the Environment Agency, local authority or internal drainage board as to what they are dealing with. I think that this designation process will certainly help.

The regulations aim to strengthen the existing standard of protection for flood defences for third-party assets and to allow local authorities and drainage boards to extend protection of those assets, so we welcome the instrument. It is an important part of establishing a more transparent and accountable way of protecting those defences. However, it will do little to recover the losses the community will suffer from the cuts to flood defence spending, which concern me. There have been cuts of 27% despite the fact that we know how valuable such an investment is—every pound spent on flood defences reaps £8 in investment. I am increasingly concerned about our resilience to flooding as we move into the winter. Certainly, in my area the Environment Agency tells me that it looks as if we might go into the winter with winter levels of groundwater. That makes us extremely vulnerable as we would normally expect much higher quantities of rainfall then. That is then set against a backdrop that I see in the Defra business plan for 2012-14 of a 7.5% reduction in staffing costs across the Defra family.

I do not want to see the Environment Agency losing any more of its staff around flood resilience. I already know from the flooding incidents 10 days ago that it was wrong-footed by a Met Office forecast, which meant that the south-west people were flown up to Newcastle because they thought the flooding was going to be in the north-east and not in the south-west. The people we needed on the ground to provide proper warnings and safeguards to us were, by and large, not there. That suggests that we are already at the most extreme end of our resilience in terms of staffing, and I will be interested in the Minister’s comments on that.

I welcome progress on the implementation of Sir Michael Pitt’s recommendations, however slowly they may come into force, and I welcome the establishment of the First-tier Tribunal for the appeals. I do not oppose the structure, which seems sensible. I understand that the designation process will be risk-based as well as targeted and that the designation decisions will be based on what the designation authority considers to be appropriate. Can the Minister therefore explain to us on what information and guidance provided to local authorities and internal drainage boards those designation determinations will be made? If there is to be a means to appeal such designations, there must be an assumption that sometimes those authorities will get the decisions wrong, so it is of the utmost importance that the Government make it absolutely clear how these bodies should make these decisions.

In conclusion, we do not oppose the instrument establishing an appeals process but we would like the Minister to explain briefly the guidance that will be provided to authorities to ensure that decisions to delegate flood defences as such are made according to clear guidance to ensure the number of appeals to the tribunal is kept to a minimum.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank noble Lords for the welcome they have given to these regulations. Indeed, I think we in this House maintained near cross-party unanimity on the need for the Flood and Water Management Bill, which has become an Act. When we were discussing it, we recognised that it derived from adverse situations in 2007. I am sorry to hear of the noble Lord’s experience. He is not alone in having experienced flooding but I recognise that it is not a very pleasant experience, having suffered it once myself. I join him in acknowledging the role that the Environment Agency has played during these past few weeks. I have not heard a word of criticism of the way that it has performed and I would like to put on the record the gratitude of Defra and the Government for the role that the Environment Agency has played.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, challenged me on the staffing cuts that Defra has undertaken. He will know, as all noble Lords do, that the current economic situation has meant that the Government have had to look at ways of reducing cost. However, the key thing has been to try to maintain sharp-end capacity and that is certainly what the Environment Agency’s response to these recent events has shown.

As noble Lords will know, the strategy against which all these matters are considered is contained within the Flood and Water Management Act, flood management plans and flood risk strategies, with the lead local authority and the Environment Agency working together to formulate management plans. That was contained in the Act and forms the background against which actions will take place.

Tabled for the convenience of noble Lords are copies of the publication about the designation, which I recommend that they read, because they reinforce the thoroughness with which that has been undertaken. It has been published jointly by Defra and the Welsh Government. It provides the framework against which designation will be maintained and guidance for individuals whose property may be so designated, so that asset owners also have a guide.

The way in which noble Lords have welcomed the regulations is very satisfactory. My noble friend Lord Greaves asked: where does that place the substantive set of regulations? Following the passage of the appeal regulations and the notice regulations laid on 29 June, the whole set will come into effect. That will be very satisfactory and the process of designation can commence as a result.

Motion agreed.

Public Bodies (Abolition of Environment Protection Advisory Committees) Order 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Public Bodies (Abolition of Environment Protection Advisory Committees) Order 2012.

Relevant document: 4th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee; 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, in moving the Motion, I shall speak also to the subsequent statutory instrument, to which we may speak if your Lordships wish. The two orders have been considered in conjunction with one another during scrutiny; hence I think it would be most helpful to refer to them together.

The orders are to be made under the Public Bodies Act 2011. They will abolish the six regional and local fisheries advisory committees in England and the six environmental protection advisory committees in England and pave the way for more flexible, non-statutory engagement arrangements that can evolve and respond to the needs and delivery of environmental objectives.

Both sets of committees have provided valuable advice to the Environment Agency, and it will continue to need such advice. I thank all those who have been so engaged. However, we believe that a non-statutory approach to engagement could provide greater flexibility at a more local, catchment-based level. That will enable civil society and local communities to provide advice directly to the Environment Agency and to be involved and empowered to take the lead, where appropriate, on delivering environmental outcomes rather than continue the current focus on just providing advice.

As set out in the explanatory documents, in developing the successor arrangements, each of the Environment Agency’s six operating regions in England has produced an engagement model, with input from existing committees and through discussion with local partners. A broad range of interactions is proposed. The regional engagement models show the relationship between the various fora—from national strategy through to local action and delivery. The models are region-specific and flexible. They will evolve over time, based on continual review by the groups involved against environmental priorities, which may vary one from another. This will ensure that the models for engagement are the right ones, involving the right individuals and groups at the right time. The explanatory documents showcased studies on engagement approaches that are being piloted to ensure that we get the arrangements right in future. We also consulted widely on the future engagement arrangements, as required by the Act, and we have reported on the consultation.

In its consideration of the orders, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee concluded in its fourth report of the 2012-13 Session that it was content to clear these draft public bodies orders within the 40-day affirmative procedure. However, it had two recommendations. The first suggested that,

“the Government re-consider the need for formal monitoring and evaluation of the successor arrangements which are put in place to enable interested parties to be engaged in the delivery of the Environment Agency’s objectives”.

I assure the Committee that my department and the Environment Agency have agreed a formal review of successor arrangements within two years of the committees being abolished. Ahead of that review, the Environment Agency will undertake stakeholder engagement to allow local, regional and national customers and stakeholders to comment on how the engagement approaches, as described in the regional models, have been embedded. Based on the views of stakeholders and customers, the focus of the review will be to ensure that the right engagement happens in the right place to achieve this local, regional and national buy-in, while adapting to local needs and priorities. The review will be an important reassurance that the regional models reflect the needs of stakeholders and customers in delivering environmental outcomes.

The second recommendation suggested that,

“without delay after abolition of the … Committees, Government and the Environment Agency put in place, and publicise, regular meetings with key regional stakeholders to strengthen the process of monitoring and evaluation”.

The scrutiny committee was concerned that, if approved, the orders would remove a statutory obligation on the agency to carry out consultation.

The Environment Agency’s remit, as set out in the management statement and statutory Section 4 guidance, published in accordance with the Environment Act 1995, makes it clear that the Environment Agency must work closely with a wide range of partners in the public, local community, private and civil society sectors. The statutory guidance and remit provide a clear requirement to engage and consult widely, which the Environment Agency already delivers on a regional level through, for example, the river basin liaison panels, local enterprise partnerships and various fishery forums.

With regard to publicising meetings and events with key stakeholders, the Environment Agency has developed and made good use of social media. It is anticipated that social media, along with traditional forms of communication, will be extensively used to advertise meetings and events linked to local engagement models.

I hope that noble Lords can see that we are ready for change. The committees have made a valuable contribution but we believe that the proposed arrangements will provide more flexible local, community and civil society engagement for both advice and delivery, and that this approach will have the ability to evolve to meet the challenges ahead. I commend the draft orders to the House.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, the orders stem from the proposals in the Public Bodies Act, on which we had some extensive and interesting discussions— coincidentally, with the same Minister, and he did a sterling job on that Bill. We are now discussing just two groups of bodies: the regional and local fisheries advisory committees and the environment protection advisory committees.

The first thing that I can say may be considered to be a typical niggle coming from me, but I find some of the language used in these reports a bit over the top and I wonder what it all means. I think that I know what it means, because I look at the detail, but I still do not like the language. For example, page 4 of the explanatory document for the environment protection advisory committees order—the same language is used in the other one, too—states:

“Localism and Big Society agendas require the Environment Agency to more directly engage with civil society, the public and business. A non-statutory approach would provide greater flexibility”—

I understand that—

“and remove statutory constraints which would enable civil society and local communities to be empowered to take the lead where appropriate”.

I have to say that I find this language difficult to understand. I would be interested if somebody had to write an examination answer on what it means. I have spent a great deal of time, including struggling with the 450 pages of the Localism Bill, trying to understand what localism and the big society agendas really are and I am still struggling. I understand a lot of the detailed stuff which comes out allegedly as part of these agendas, but what it all means as an overall strategy is still a mystery hidden in the fogs of some of the upper echelons of the Government. However, the details here are much easier to understand.

We welcome the increased emphasis on catchment areas, which have always been difficult for public authorities to deal with, because they very rarely coincide with administrative and local authority boundaries. They are difficult to deal with, but, if you are dealing with flooding, the catchments are the most important of all.

The documents make it clear that the measures are not a matter of saving money or part of the cuts, and that the amounts being saved will come from, for example, the salaries of chairs of the bodies. I understand that existing staff resources will be redeployed to make sure the new non-statutory, flexible arrangements are fit for particular purposes. Will my noble friend the Minister confirm that that is the case and that this is not a cost-cutting exercise? Page 7 of the first of the explanatory documents states:

“There are no overall savings from the abolition in economic terms”.

It then states that,

“it is expected that there will be a zero net cost /benefit associated with abolition”.

I am not quite sure why it says that, because I thought that cost/benefit analyses took into account non-economic terms as well, but never mind: if it is not a cost-saving measure and a matter of doing things better, that is okay.

The Minister referred to the recommendations of the scrutiny committee. I was not sure whether he was saying that the two-year review will take place. Perhaps he can clarify that or whether other arrangements will be made to make sure that monitoring and reviewing take place. On the recommendation that there should be regular meetings with the “key regional stakeholders”—I say that biting my tongue and making the words come out of my mouth—was the Minister saying that those meetings will take place or that they are not necessary because they will form part of the new arrangements anyway?

Finally, the Minister said that they will make use of social media. I think I know what social media are, but I am not sure that everyone tweeting each other all the time is the way to do this. Is he talking about more conventional websites and forums, rather than the frantic arrangements that one finds on things such as Twitter and Facebook, which seem to me not the media that should be used in this context? Perhaps I am out of date.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I certainly agree that if you need to get information out very rapidly, media such as Twitter are helpful, but in an emergency, cell broadcasting is the most effective because you can get to every mobile phone within a cell area. I think that the Environment Agency is looking at how that might be used.

I was going on to address the other point made about more sustained, ongoing stakeholder engagement. It is notable to look at how the really large commercial interests, the large retailers, are using Facebook, for example, to create massive communities of people around Facebook pages, particularly in the United States. Twitter is as good as the people you want to follow. If you choose to follow people who post only dross, you will get a lot of dross, but if you choose to unfollow the dross, you will get what you want. It is entirely up to you.

Without being distracted by the use of social media in these things, the more serious issue is to try to understand a little more from the Minister about how it might work. Will the money be spent on apps, webinars and tweet-meets? In particular, what proportion and how much will be spent on staff against this difficult fiscal environment and the pressure to reduce staffing costs? Will Defra monitor the staffing arrangements to ensure that there are enough people on the ground? Here, I might have common cause with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. We cannot solely rely on technology because some people find it difficult to engage with technology or, surprising as it may seem, do not even want to. Often, the technology can create the noise and the interest, and bring people together, but you still need people on the ground to engage with people and with that technology.

If the Minister can give me some answers about how the review would work and how this money will be reinvested, I will be delighted. Suffice to say that I do not want to oppose the orders. I am happy to let a more catchment-based and more community-based approach operate and see how it is reviewed.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, again, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and for the welcome that they have given these two draft orders. I think that there is an understanding that this represents a new way of working and doing things better. It is not about saving money; it is about engagement and providing the opportunity for fuller participation. If my noble friend Lord Greaves found the section on civil and big society vexing in its use of language, I recommend to noble Lords that they read the Explanatory Memorandum. Although it has a rather stiff and starchy front, which they all have, when you get into it, it is full of useful recommendations.

[Lord Greaves]

I have read it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I know that my noble friend clearly got beyond page 4 and got well into the subject, as I would have expected him to have done. It is a very useful document, which gives a lot of illustrations which will help to reassure noble Lords about what is involved. It is about getting people involved and facilitating engagement.

It also is about a new way of working on catchment areas. I saw a map of European catchment areas the other day and it is remarkable how catchments for the United Kingdom are so much more appropriate because we have such a variety of river basins, whereas some larger countries in Europe, such as Germany, have relatively few but substantial rivers. We have a large number of rivers and it is quite right that we deal with them on the basis of catchments.

I can reassure noble Lords that there will be a review after two years. We will review progress jointly with the Environment Agency against the high-level principles. Ahead of the review, we will engage with stakeholders to allow them and local and national customers to comment on how everything has gone. Through that process, we hope to inform the Environment Agency how the policy is going forward.

There was a certain amount of jesting about social media. I probably come half way between the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and my noble friend Lord Greaves. I am certainly less familiar than the noble Lord with Twitter and such things. The Explanatory Memorandum contains examples of how social media are already being used. I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, to pages 42 to 45 for examples of what has already been developed. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned the engagement that has already occurred in the north-west. At yorkshirefishing.net, anglers had a two-hour online question-and-answer session with the Environment Agency’s fisheries and biodiversity team. Those are the sort of things which I see justifying the use of social media as means of engagement. I think that all noble Lords will recognise that, over time, their use will become much more customary and a part of the formal pattern of things.

My noble friend Lord Greaves and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, wanted to examine where the money would be used. No savings are being made here, but some money will be able to be redirected. That will be used to support the new England and Wales Fisheries Group. This group will monitor further changes needed for the regional models to be able to engage the right people at the right time. The money will go back into the kitty. It is anticipated that some further resources may be needed to support engagement. For example, the Environment Agency in the south-west has committed funding to provide a local angling development board and an angling development officer. Those are useful examples of the recreational opportunities which such engagement will provide.

I hope that the further reassurances that I have given will ease the way towards the next and final stage of the process, which started some 21 months ago. To this end, I commend the two orders to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Coastal Access in England

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, when I saw the speakers list, I recognised the quality but was rather disappointed by the number of contributors. I suggested to the usual channels that, rather than have this debate, perhaps the three of us could go down to Weymouth and enjoy the torch and indeed have a walk along the new coastal path. Unfortunately, the procedures of the House demand that we are here, but that has encouraged the introducer of the legislation into Parliament, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, to be here with us. We were a very happy band of brothers dealing with that Bill, now the Act on which this debate is founded. We worked together to improve the Bill and there was no lack of enthusiasm from either government or opposition. Indeed, although the discussion was lengthy, it was a good experience for us all.

We have good news to tell on this story. Had the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and I been walking along the coast, he could have vented all this frustration of being in opposition and not engaged in this. I can tell him from our point of view that this is an energising project for the Government. The prospect of a coastal route linking communities, encouraging tourism and drawing people to one of the finest coastlines in the world—wherever you are in this country, it is magnificent—is something that I hope all can agree with and aspire to achieve. Opening up many miles of coastline for the enjoyment of all will help to support local economies. We already make over 70 million trips to the coast each year, spending over £1.4 billion, which helps support myriad small businesses on the coast and, indeed, in many seaside towns. As the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said, all this started with George III going down to Weymouth.

As my noble friend pointed out at the very beginning of his speech, the new right of access was implemented for the first time on 29 June on the lovely stretch of coast between Rufus Castle on the eastern side of Portland and Lulworth Cove. There has been real enthusiasm locally for what has been achieved. It is not surprising that celebratory events have been held by the local authority and the Ramblers to mark the opening of the Weymouth route. The new coastal route will bring a number of key improvements to the existing arrangements for coastal access at Weymouth Bay. The existing south-west coast path will, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, mentioned, move closer to the sea in several places and away from a road in two places. For the first time, there will be secure statutory rights of public access to world-famous areas of beach, cliff and other coastal land on this magnificent part of the Dorset coast.

It has been a delight to listen to the local knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth. He knows and loves that coast—and, indeed, owns it, in the sense that we all own, through public access, the opportunity of sharing in it. Crucially, as the noble Lord pointed out, the new coastal path will be able to roll back as the cliffs erode or slip. This will help to solve long-standing difficulties with maintaining a continuous route around the slumping cliffs between Weymouth and Lulworth Cove. The coastal route will make a huge difference, even in this area, which is served by an existing coastal national trail.

Weymouth is, of course, just the start of an opportunity that we have seized, which I want to emphasise. Natural England is progressing its proposals for the coastal route on a further five stretches of coast, totalling another 190 miles. It has recently issued draft reports with proposals for two new stretches of coast in Cumbria and at Durham, Hartlepool and Sunderland. These draft reports, which are not required by legislation, none the less demonstrate the highly consultative style in which improved coastal access is being delivered. That is a theme of the Government’s approach to their responsibilities under the Act, which will be found throughout this speech.

Next month, draft reports will also be issued by Natural England for the lead stretches of coast in Kent and Norfolk. The draft report for part of the Somerset coast will follow in spring 2013. Natural England has already started preparations, along with local authorities, on a further 190 miles of English coast, building on the existing stretches in Cumbria, Dorset, Kent, Norfolk and Hartlepool.

Over the next five to seven years, Natural England will continue to roll out the implementation programme in a planned and sequential way, providing improved coastal access and linking to some of the existing national trail network—I can reassure my noble friend Lord Greaves on that—and to the Welsh coastal path. By 2016, for example, even if noble Lords have to walk in an anti-clockwise direction, we expect it to be possible to walk on the national trails from the start of the south-west coast path at Poole to the first Severn Bridge, and there join up with the Welsh coast path and the southern end of the Offa’s Dyke path. We congratulate the Welsh Government on what they have achieved in opening that path and we seek to emulate them.

There is no lack of government will to implement the coastal access programme. Clearly, we need to be realistic as to the speed of implementation, alongside available resources. Noble Lords would expect that. Implementation activity must be cost-effective and proportionate to local need and operationally efficient. I am not in a position to give a deadline. Indeed, when the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was taking the Bill through he was reluctant to give a deadline for this project. But we will achieve our objective to have a coastal path around the coast of England. I believe that our approach needs these requirements, as it must do at a time of scarce resources.

I want to address the concerns that some landowners, coastal businesses and residents have raised about the possible impact on coastal access. It is in our interests to ensure that coastal access proceeds sensitively with care and does not damage livelihoods or businesses. Just as importantly, it should not put at risk or damage nature conservation or heritage interests. Noble Lords have asked a number of points. My noble friend Lord Greaves asked about the cliffs. The British Mountaineering Council, of which he is an active member, has provided quite a lot of information about access to cliffs along the route, and I am sure that it will continue to do so. It is seen as a body that Natural England will consult. My noble friend also asked about the existence of a path on the Isle of Wight. We will be consulting in the next four weeks on the possibility of bringing the Isle of Wight into the scope, so there is an opportunity for it to be equally served by a path.

My noble friend asked if we would review the scheme. I can reassure him that Natural England has written today to key national stakeholders outlining its plan for the review, which will start on 5 September and last for eight weeks. It will look at the implementation that has developed at Weymouth and the stretches that are currently under protection, and it will learn the lessons that there are to be learnt. Indeed, it will be looking at the economic benefits and the issue of transport access. I am sure that because of the involvement of local authorities, transport access will be encouraged so that walkers can make the most of these situations. My noble friend also asked about the linkage with National Trails. I think that I have indicated that they are designed to be incorporated into this great facility.

In many ways consultation is a key element of the process in completing the national route. It is crucial to get the balance right between the new right of coastal access and the needs of those who live or work on coastal land. In the future rollout of the coastal access programme, we will take forward the lessons that we have learnt from our experience at Weymouth. Natural England will look to work even more closely with landowners and occupiers in the future rollout of the programme, recognising the significant knowledge and expertise that they have to offer.

I hope that I have been able to demonstrate the enthusiasm of the Government for this coastal path. We see it as a great asset and amenity for all the citizens of this country. It will improve the nation’s sense of ownership of its beautiful landscape and will provide for the well-being of the citizens of this land. In particular, as we know, the coastal route around the whole English coast is a huge challenge, and we all have to acknowledge that. We intend to show that it is achievable and I assure noble Lords that there will be no dragging of feet.

House adjourned at 5.35 pm.

Farming Regulation Task Force

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Byford, and with her permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper. I declare my noble friend’s and my own farming interests on the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, in February, we published our response to the Farming Regulation Task Force recommendations. This set out how we will address each recommendation. We are making good progress on meeting our priority commitments, which include reducing the burden of inspections and paperwork, and we have appointed an independent-led group to hold us to account in delivering them. However, this work cannot be rushed. It is important that standards in the farming industry continue to be maintained.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, on a day when over 1,500 dairy farmers are coming to London because of the crisis in their sector, should not more progress have been made by now on the implementation of the excellent Macdonald report? How can that best be achieved? Does the Minister agree that a culture of partnership and proportionate regulation is far more productive than a regime of excessive regulation?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I totally agree with my noble friend. It is a partnership arrangement. We can deregulate only in partnership with the farming industry. The dairy industry is no exception. However, it has a particular problem at this time. At Parliamentary Questions today, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced £5 million from the rural economy grant scheme to support innovation in the dairy industry for dairy farmers at this particular time. We understand their concerns and anxieties, and we need to strengthen their position in the marketplace.

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, will that cover the cost of milk in the retail market? Why do some supermarkets appear to be happy to keep prices as they are while others put prices up? Surely this is the time for some form of regulation about milk prices, particularly in view of the extra costs to dairy farmers in other directions concerning their cattle.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I understand my noble friend’s question, but we are talking about deregulation rather than trying to regulate the market. The key thing, if I may say so, is to strengthen the role of the dairy producer in the dairy market, and that is where the Government’s efforts are going. I hope that my noble friend will understand that I want to stick to the principal theme of this Question, which is about deregulation.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, will the money which I understand the Prime Minister has been offering get quickly to the farmers? This is extremely urgent at the moment. One of the problems is, of course, that the wet weather means that the cattle are indoors and the food for the winter is being used now.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have to emphasise that this is not direct income support and therefore it is designed to strengthen the productive capacity of the dairy industry. The scheme will be launched in the autumn, so this is not immediate relief and I do not want to mislead the House by pretending that it is. I understand the difficulties that a lot of dairy farmers are facing with the very poor weather that we have had this summer.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, while Defra has accepted the majority of recommendations that outline the new partnership approach between government and industry, we ignore the far more important matter of relationships in the supply chain between sections of the industry. Today, as we have heard, we see turmoil in the dairy sector. Surely regulation must have the objective of improving the workings of the industry. Regulatory proposals must make a difference to those on the ground. How will the Minister and his department measure and evaluate their success?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I hope that we can measure success by having a prosperous and successful agriculture in this country that is capable of expanding its market. There are huge opportunities for our high-quality agricultural products within the European Union and I hope that we can encourage the industry to look in that direction.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, given the price cuts, which mean that many farmers are losing 4p per litre, can the Minister outline the progress in securing a voluntary code of practice to secure fair milk contracts, which the Government agreed to in their response to the Farming Regulation Task Force?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is quite right; part of our strategy is to agree a voluntary code of practice with the dairy and the retail industry and to work with them to ensure stability within the market. Having said that, there is no market control or price control; the market is based on voluntary contracts between producers and the industry.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister ensure that his department takes great care when deregulating agriculture? Does he not recall, as many in this House do, that the changes to regulation in heating food for pigs were one of the factors that were identified as a great risk for foot and mouth disease? Will his department ensure that it never again deregulates at the expense of the consumer?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness is quite right to remind us of our responsibility in undertaking this project. I said in my opening response that we need to work with thoroughness to ensure that situations such as she describes do not happen again.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, what advice will the Minister give to the thousands of dairy producers who are leaving the industry? When I was a young man working for the farmers there were 6,000 milk producers in Carmarthenshire alone. Now there are probably fewer than 3,000 in the whole of Wales. He talks about strengthening the industry. How will the industry be strengthened, as opposed to the buyers?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The fundamental problem is currently that the productive capacity of the dairy herd has greatly increased. Until the industry is capable of expanding its market beyond the liquid milk market, which in itself is fairly inelastic, to use an economic term, we will not actually solve this problem. I hope that the answers that I have given today have given the House an indication of my view that the solution lies in creating new markets for processed milk and the infrastructure to provide that.

Designation of Features (Appeals) (England) Regulations 2012

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft regulations and orders be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.