National Infrastructure
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Sassoon (Con)
My Lords, as the former Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has initiated this debate on infrastructure today. I should note that I am currently the chairman of the China-Britain Business Council.
This is the first infrastructure debate in which I have spoken from the Back Benches and I will start by congratulating my successor, my noble friend the Minister, on the expertise, the energy and the success with which he has driven forward the UK infrastructure agenda in the past two years.
No Government in recent UK history have better understood the case for improving investment in and planning for the United Kingdom’s national infrastructure. This Government have spent more and they have spent better than the last Government ever did.
Let us remember that note which was left by the last Government in the Treasury drawer in May 2012, saying:
“I’m afraid there is no money”.
That was the appalling background against which the easy thing to do would have been to cut infrastructure expenditure—but this Government did the difficult but correct thing of increasing capital spending, initially by up to £2.3 billion a year and then by switching a further £5 billion a year from revenue to capital spend.
Not only was it more expenditure, it was against a plan which the last Government never had: the first ever national infrastructure plan, to set out the challenge and to give transparency to infrastructure investors and contractors. That plan was and is at the heart of this Government’s pro-growth policies, and it is a plan against which the Government have regularly reported progress.
We also inherited a PFI programme which had been poorly executed by the last Government, with endless cases of inflated costs borne by taxpayers and excessive profits made by investors. This Government have attacked those excessive costs and, by the end of 2012, had exceeded their initial target of saving £1.5 billion.
This Government have not dodged the most difficult infrastructure challenges. As far back as 2003, the last Government published a White Paper on UK runway capacity, but for seven years they did not act on it. But this Government have set up the Davies commission to make a detailed study and recommendations on runways in the south-east. The last Government were frit. This Government have risen to the difficult challenges.
On the international front, the Government have put infrastructure at the heart of our commercial relationship with China—a relationship which had no such dimension under the previous Government. It has led to Chinese investment in our water and in our airport infrastructure, and that is to be welcomed. I would be interested to hear from my noble friend about the even more important prospects for Chinese investment in nuclear power and in high-speed rail.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, referred at some length to the proposal for a new infrastructure commission. The last thing we need is another quango, more paperwork and more layers of bureaucracy. I hope that my noble friend will assure the House that this is neither necessary nor something that the Government will entertain.
I have noted the recent work of the new UK Regulators Network. It seems an excellent example of how well this Government are taking forward the huge and difficult infrastructure challenge, and I commend my noble friend for that initiative.
Finance: Peer-to-Peer Lending
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Wheatcroft
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact of peer-to-peer lending on major financial institutions.
Lord Sassoon
Wait for the Answer—but I believe it is a good news story.
Peer-to-peer platforms are currently small in the context of the UK lending market but they are growing fast. It is too soon to assess what impact they might have on other financial institutions but, over time, we expect alternative forms of finance, including peer-to-peer platforms, to bring additional choice and greater competition to the lending market.
Baroness Wheatcroft
I thank my noble friend for his response. This positively being his last time at the Dispatch Box, I take this opportunity to thank him for all his work there.
Baroness Wheatcroft
Although there is a place for peer-to-peer lending, small firms really require lenders who understand their business, who can see them through difficulties as they arise, who understand what they need in the way of advice and who certainly will not pull the rug away from them at the first sign of difficulty. The Government are doing what they can to encourage lending to small businesses but can my noble friend tell me whether they are managing to encourage a longer-term approach?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s remarks. I certainly agree that we want diversity in lending. I do not believe that p-to-p lending will solve every problem but I think it has an important role to play. Alongside the money that BIS put in to support two of the p-to-p businesses only last week, through the Business Finance Partnership, BIS also put some money into funds managed by lenders that I think will probably fit more with my noble friend’s model. It is also worth noting that some of the new bank lenders, such as Aldermore, have been some of the biggest takers, relatively, of funds under the Funding for Lending scheme. I agree that diversity is needed.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I wish the noble Lord well in his retirement. I hope he is retiring only from the Treasury. I have very much enjoyed our exchanges over the past two-and-a-half years.
Can he confirm that one of the many subsidiaries of the huge new Bank of England under the Financial Services Act will have the power to regulate in this case? When it is really a business-to-business matter—it is a big and growing business and I gather that some trade associations are already involved—can the Minister say whether it would be liable to tax relief and therefore part of a possible new tax avoidance scheme? Of course, that will be very different from one Peer lending to another, or one Baroness lending to another.
Lord Sassoon
As always, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, who keeps me on my toes until the end. On regulation, we had some interesting debates in the course of the passage of the Financial Services Act but, on balance, I think it is appropriate that p-to-p lending comes within the FCA’s regulatory framework. We also need to look at the experience in places such as the US and ensure that regulation does not kill off what could be a very valuable contribution to lending. There are some issues on tax, which are the subject of ongoing debate between the industry and HMRC. We certainly do not want anything to stand in the way of the growth of industry. I do not believe that tax issues do that. There is a big, ongoing agenda of which the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, identifies some of the key issues.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I add my thanks to my noble friend for the careful way in which he has dealt with our questions and issues and wish him every success. How do the Government expect the banks to lend more money to small businesses if we are requiring them to hold more capital in the form of government bonds or deposits with the Bank of England and taxing them more by increasing the banking levy? Where are they going to find the money? Is there not a case for relaxing, in a counter-cyclical way, the capital requirements so that the money is there to get growth in our economy?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, these are critical issues. There is a fundamental trade-off between stability in the system, which clearly has to improve over what it was before the financial crisis, and the need to boost growth. The fact that the Financial Policy Committee at the Bank of England is up and running in shadow mode and is identifying the counter-cyclical tools that it will need is a very important new step in this area. The Funding for Lending scheme is, I believe, the most important sign of what can be done with the strength of the Government’s balance sheet. Lower funding costs are already coming in to wholesale bank funding, declining by over 100 basis points since June. One indication of the impact on consumers is that quoted rates on fixed-rate mortgages have declined by 0.3 percentage points since the Funding for Lending scheme has come in. However, I certainly agree that we need to be very attentive to this issue.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, yesterday the Opposition expressed their best wishes to the noble Lord on leaving the Front Bench. In the Treasury team, that Motion was carried by seven votes to one, and I am not quite sure whether I should confess to being the one. Nevertheless, I have enjoyed the cross-Dispatch Box jousting that we have had from time to time and I appreciate the Minister’s skill in replying—often, of course, defending the indefensible. Will he, on this occasion, give us real hope for the future? There is a possibility of very rapid growth of peer-to-peer lending. Is he certain that what will be in place is rigorous regulation of this developing sector? We obviously failed with regard to the banks in the past and there are a lot of anxieties about the new scheme now. This one presents particular challenges and I would like some reassurance from the Minister.
Lord Sassoon
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I would not want, on an occasion like this, to point out that the previous Government did not take any policy on p-to-p lending, but it was very small then. These lenders only got into business in 2005. The critical thing is that now, having handed the challenge and the responsibility to the FCA, we will see a draft plan very soon, certainly in the first quarter of the new year, as to what the framework for regulation will be. Draft rules will come in later in the year and, as I said earlier, it is very important that we get the balance right in providing an appropriate degree of regulation, not something that kills off what is likely to be a very fast-growing and important area of activity.
Banks: Money-laundering
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Crosby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are satisfied that sufficient steps have been taken to prevent money-laundering by United Kingdom banks.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, the UK is internationally recognised as having one of the most robust anti-money-laundering regimes in the world. However, no Government should ever be satisfied that sufficient steps have been taken to prevent money-laundering by those who handle money in the UK. It is an ongoing multi-billion pound threat to the financial system. However, the Financial Services Authority is taking an increasingly robust approach to supervision, demonstrated by recent enforcement actions against banks and their staff.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I thank the Minister for that reply but last year alone the amount of fines paid to the United States regulatory authority from British banks alone came to no less than £6.4 billion, in comparison to the amount paid to the Financial Services Authority from the same banks, which came to £140 million. The discrepancy is clear.
These were not minor crimes. They included not only money-laundering but fixing the LIBOR rate, breaking the sanctions regimes against Iran and other countries and, not least, money-laundering that included drugs cartels in Mexico and Colombia. Does the noble Lord therefore agree with Andrew Bailey, the CEO of the prudential authority that is shortly to be established, that it is impossible to prosecute major banks on grounds of confidence? Does he take that view or the view that I hold, which is that unless we prosecute major banks that commit crimes of this kind, we will find ourselves with a City that no longer has its traditional reputation for integrity and fair dealing, which is absolutely crucial to its future and which many of us recognise must be re-established, if necessary with radical measures?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I agree with the numbers that my noble friend shared with us. However, the traditional approaches in the UK and US towards fines have been very different. I believe that my noble friend’s numbers go wider than the narrow question of money-laundering. As I said, the FSA has levied much larger fines in recent years. Prosecutions are, of course, possible and should be pursued where appropriate, whether against bank staff or potentially against the banks. However, Mr Bailey is also correct that there are circumstances in which the prosecution of a bank could have the consequence of putting the future of that bank in jeopardy. Therefore, considerations may arise in extreme cases regarding the stability of the system if a major bank was closed down. Those considerations have to be taken into account.
Lord Hylton
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the present British regime causes unintended consequences for legitimate people opening bank accounts, for example, for perfectly bona fide reasons?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I certainly accept that there is unfinished business to be done around the whole “know your customer” and opening bank accounts regime. Many of us know what difficulty that causes, whether on our own account or on that of our children. This is something that we discussed during the passage of the Financial Services Bill. It is interesting that some banks require less detail and paperwork than others. I wish they would all make this process as easy as possible for their customers, consistent with the regulations that apply.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay
My Lords, on that topic, I wonder whether the noble Lord and other noble Lords bank with HSBC. I have done so for the past 30 years. Last week I was rather surprised to be asked by bank staff to show them my passport and a utility bill. I am not sure whether noble Lords realise but we are all politically exposed persons in regulator-speak; some of us may be more so than others. But, honestly, is this not mindless box-ticking? Do they really need to check our passports to know the difference between a British baron and a Mexican drugs baron? Is not the reality that these monster banks such as HSBC and RBS are, as the Minister touched on, frankly, not just too big to fail but too big to regulate and too big for any single board to control?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, on the first of my noble friend’s points, I certainly agree that the banks need to get much more intelligent about this matter. I have met in the Treasury senior bankers on the retail or wealth management side of these banks to make precisely my noble friend’s point: namely, that they need to be intelligent about this matter. This must not be a box-ticking exercise. I have made the same point to the chairman of the FSA. My noble friend raises a very important point.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I believe that this is the last time the noble Lord will appear at the Dispatch Box in his current position. I am sure that the whole House wishes him well in his future endeavours.
Turning to the Question, the FSA rulebook states that the chief executive function is the function of,
“having the responsibility … for the conduct of the whole of the business”.
Indeed, the notion of chief executive responsibility is at the heart of the FSA’s regulatory philosophy. While I understand the concept of the independence of the FSA, given that it has been established that HSBC has committed very serious money-laundering offences, would the noble Lord expect the FSA to implement its own rulebook and would he therefore expect it to take enforcement action against the relevant chief executive of HSBC?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for his kind words, but I regret to say that the House may have me at the Dispatch Box again for the Topical Question tomorrow, unless I can persuade a colleague to take it from me. As for HSBC, the FSA will do what it should as the independent regulator in this area. However, it is important that the FSA has agreed a series of additional measures with the HSBC board, including establishing a committee of the main board of the bank with a mandate to oversee matters relating to anti-money-laundering, reviewing relevant group policies, appointing a group level money-laundering reporting officer and having an independent monitor in place to look at the bank’s compliance across the group with UK anti-money-laundering regimes. The FSA has agreed a tough series of measures with HSBC right across the group.
Financial Services Bill
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Sassoon
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, in most cases the legislation places duties, powers and obligations on the Bank as an institution. The Court of Directors is responsible for managing the Bank’s affairs. In practice, the Court of Directors, in a similar way to other governing bodies, delegates the vast majority of the Bank’s day-to-day decisions to the executive, with the court itself taking only the most important strategic decisions. There are, however, some instances in the legislation where the duties, powers and obligations are placed directly on the court. For example, the court is responsible for determining the Bank’s strategy, including its financial stability strategy, and it also has the power to delegate additional functions to the FPC.
On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and I discussed whether the court would take the decision whether or not to withhold from publication a report of the oversight committee. I stated clearly that I would expect a decision of this importance to be taken by the court rather than to be delegated to the executive. However, in the light of that debate, I asked my officials to look right through the Bill again to see whether there were other key decisions for which responsibility should lie unequivocally with the court. This group of amendments is the result.
Amendments 4, 5, 6 and 7 confirm that the court will decide whether oversight committee reviews should be withheld from publication in order to protect the public interest.
Amendments 1, 12 and 26 to 31 make the same change to confer a number of other responsibilities directly on the court. These are the power to delegate additional functions to the oversight committee, responsibility for being consulted on the PRA’s strategy, and the power to appoint non-executive members to the PRA board.
Amendment 25 puts beyond all doubt that the court may not delegate any functions that are explicitly given to it in legislation. I should make it clear that this does not mean that all functions that the legislation confers on the Bank will automatically be undertaken by the executive. The court will of course retain discretion either to delegate these roles to the executive or to reserve those decisions for itself. However, I believe that these amendments provide important clarity by identifying those roles within the legislation that will be the responsibility of the court in all cases. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for having clarified some obscurities in the Bill that arose from the use of the generic term “the Bank” to refer sometimes to the court and sometimes to the executive. However, the noble Lord has just said something which has disturbed me. He said that, for clarification, when the term “Bank” is used, this does not necessarily mean the executive; it may mean the court. It seemed to me that he was acknowledging that an uncertainty remained. Perhaps I misheard. I should be very happy if I did, because the sort of clarification that he has set out is very welcome.
Lord Flight
My Lords, there is one area in this territory on which I would appreciate some clarity. The principle of returning the oversight of banks to the central Bank, which I think has been widely supported, has, to my mind, always been about the concept that the central Bank ought to be in regular contact with banks, that it ought to know what is going on and that it ought to be able to head off practices that are clearly potentially damaging to the banking system. However, I am not clear how the staff of the Bank and the staff of the PRA will interact. One would have thought that quite often it would be the staff of the Bank who were having regular dialogue with banks and learning what was going on and what might be going wrong, but it is the PRA—to some extent a sort of cuckoo plopped into the middle of the Bank of England—that essentially has the legal tasks. Therefore, we have clarification of the definitions of “Bank” and “court” but below what I call the executive level I am still not entirely clear where the staff of the Bank or the staff of the PRA will be carrying out supervisory activities.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, in response to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, the Court of Directors is the governing body of the Bank, so ultimately it is for the court to decide who takes what decisions and which decisions should be for the Bank. In the legislation, “the Bank” certainly does not mean the Bank executive; it means the Bank of England. Therefore, it is always for the Court of Directors, just as it is for the governing body of any corporate institution, to decide who takes what decisions and, if the governing body does not delegate them, it takes them itself. We are making clear through these amendments that there is a certain small category of decisions—one of which was identified by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell—that is of such importance that it is appropriate to put down for the avoidance of doubt in the legislation that it is the court not the executive that takes those decisions. That is what those amendments do.
Lord Eatwell
Just for clarity, the noble Lord said that it is the responsibility of the directors—that is, the court—to decide who takes the various decisions. I presume what he has said does not apply to the Monetary Policy Committee?
Lord Sassoon
Indeed. I should say that it is subject to what is laid down in statute about the Monetary Policy Committee and the Financial Policy Committee and so on. If they are decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee, then they are the decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee. If they are the decisions of the Bank, the court will decide how they are taken. As for the question from my noble friend Lord Flight, of course it will be the PRA staff who will supervise and lead on the direct relationships with the banks or insurance companies, for example, that are being supervised. Technically, the PRA staff will be seconded from the Bank. There will be a close working relationship, which is part of the benefit of bringing it all together under the one umbrella.
Lord Barnett
I hope I did not misunderstand, but the Minister seemed to say that all decisions of the Bank are made by the court. Does that mean that when the Governor of the Bank of England makes a policy decision, it is not his decision, but a decision of the court?
Lord Sassoon
No, my Lords, that is not what I said. I said that the court is the governing body of the Bank. So unless specified in some other way, it is ultimately the decision of the court as to whether it takes a decision or delegates it. When it comes to policy decisions of the sort that the noble Lord is describing, they are of course delegated ones. All we are trying to do in this amendment is make it clear what decisions should be taken by the court and only by the court.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(2) The member appointed under subsection (1)(d) is to be a person who has executive responsibility within the Bank for the analysis of threats to financial stability.”
Lord Sharkey
My Lords, I support some of the sentiments, but not the amendment, of the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston. Like them, I believe it would be a good thing if Mr Carney were to appear before the Lords Economic Affairs Committee as well as the Commons Treasury Committee. Mr Carney is entirely used to dealing with bicameral legislatures with separate committees. On 30 October this year, he appeared before the Canadian House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance to discuss the October monetary policy report. The following day, he appeared before the Canadian Senate Standing Committee on Banking, Trade, and Commerce to discuss the same report.
However, since this is a suggestion from the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston, I know they would prefer me to use the word “must” rather than “may”, but it may be better to suggest to the Minister not that Mr Carney must appear before our Economic Affairs Committee but that he may want to appear. The Minister may want to suggest this to him.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I will make sure that the suggestion to Mr Carney is passed on, but of course it is breaking radical new ground that a prospective governor should appear before the Treasury Select Committee, and I do not know whether we want to be too radical at this juncture, but the point is taken.
Turning to the matter in hand, first, I have to admire the persistence, consistency and eternal optimism of the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston, on this matter. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Peston, but on this occasion the Treasury’s word processor did not slip a few words. There is a very important issue here, which is why the two noble Lords raise this matter on a regular basis. We debated very similar amendments to this one in Committee and on Report, although I recall that on Report the amendment was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on behalf of the noble Lords, with, let us say, a degree of enthusiasm.
The House will be unsurprised to learn that my position on this point is unchanged on the back of what I have heard this afternoon. The FPC’s primary objective must be financial stability. Financial stability is the FPC’s reason for being, its primary purpose. The aim of the committee will be to secure a safe and stable financial system, which will help create the conditions necessary for stable and sustainable economic growth. I should not rise to every bit of bait but I have to say that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done an outstanding job in extremely difficult economic circumstances, as we will discuss later this afternoon. While he is always grateful for any additional advice, we should have the FPC stick to its main task as its primary objective.
The legislation makes clear that, subject to achieving its primary objective for financial stability, the FPC should act to support the Government’s economic objectives. This structure strikes the right balance, by giving the FPC a clear and positive mandate to support economic growth, but without prejudicing its primary responsibility to protect and enhance financial stability. It is clear already, from the way that the shadow FPC is operating, that it has this mandate well on board.
The primary flaw with the structure proposed in Amendment 10—namely, to give the FPC dual, equally weighted objectives—is that this would allow the FPC to take action that would damage financial stability with the aim of encouraging growth. This would take the FPC outside its remit and expertise, and directly frustrate its primary purpose, which is financial stability. I simply do not believe that the model proposed by the noble Lords is appropriate or workable and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Newby
“( ) The purpose of a review is—
(a) in the case of a direction, to consider whether the direction ought to be revoked, and(b) in the case of a recommendation, to consider whether the recommendation ought to be withdrawn.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, Amendment 11 responds directly to a request made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on Report. On hearing my noble friend Lord Sassoon’s explanation of the underlying purpose of the FPC’s reviews of its live actions—namely, to consider whether they are still necessary and whether they should be removed or revoked—the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, responded,
“if that is what the new section meant, why did it not say so?”.—[Official Report, 6/11/12; col. 978.]
I believe that the purpose of the reviews could have been derived implicitly from the clause as it was originally drafted. However, I accept that this could be made more explicit in the clause, and Amendment 11 seeks to do exactly that. This is a straightforward amendment, which responds directly to concerns raised in this House about the clarity of the drafting. I hope that noble Lords can support it. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I am grateful to the Government for having taken on board the fact that there was some infelicity in the drafting at this point. I am delighted to support the amendment.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“137BA FCA general rules: cost of credit and duration of credit agreements
(1) The power of the FCA to make general rules includes power to make rules prohibiting authorised persons from—
(a) entering into a regulated credit agreement that provides for—(i) the payment by the borrower of charges of a specified description, or(ii) the payment by the borrower over the duration of the agreement of charges that, taken with the charges paid under one or more other agreements which are treated by the rules as being connected with it, exceed, or are capable of exceeding, a specified amount;(b) imposing charges of a specified description or exceeding a specified amount on a person who is the borrower under a regulated credit agreement;(c) entering into a regulated credit agreement that—(i) is capable of remaining in force after the end of a specified period, (ii) when taken with one or more other regulated credit agreements which are treated by the rules as being connected with it, would be capable of remaining in force after the end of a specified period, or(iii) is treated by the rules as being connected with a number of previous regulated credit agreements that exceeds a specified maximum;(d) exercising the rights of the lender under a regulated credit agreement (as a person for the time being entitled to exercise them) in a way that enables the agreement to remain in force after the end of a specified period or enables the imposition on the borrower of charges within paragraph (a)(i) or (ii).(2) “Charges” means charges payable, by way of interest or otherwise, in connection with the provision of credit under the regulated credit agreement, whether or not the agreement itself makes provision for them and whether or not the person to whom they are payable is a party to the regulated credit agreement or an authorised person.
(3) “The borrower” includes—
(a) any person providing a guarantee or indemnity under the regulated credit agreement, and(b) a person to whom the rights and duties of the borrower under the regulated credit agreement or a person falling within paragraph (a) have passed by assignment or operation of law.(4) In relation to an agreement entered into or obligation imposed in contravention of the rules, the rules may—
(a) provide for the agreement or obligation to be unenforceable against any person or specified person;(b) provide for the recovery of any money or other property paid or transferred under the agreement or other obligation by any person or specified person;(c) provide for the payment of compensation for any loss sustained by any person or specified person as a result of paying or transferring any money or other property under the agreement or obligation.(5) The provision that may be made as a result of subsection (4) includes provision corresponding to that made by section 30 (enforceability of agreements resulting from unlawful communications).
(6) A credit agreement is a contract of the kind mentioned in paragraph 23 of Schedule 2, other than one under which the obligation of the borrower to repay is secured on land: and a credit agreement is a “regulated credit agreement” if any of the following is a regulated activity—
(a) entering into or administering the agreement;(b) exercising or being able to exercise the rights of the lender under the agreement.(7) In this section—
(a) “specified amount” means an amount specified in or determined in accordance with the rules;(b) “specified period” means a period of a duration specified in or determined in accordance with the rules;(c) “specified person” means a person of a description specified in the rules;(d) subject to that, “specified” means specified in the rules.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, on Report I committed to bring forward a government amendment to give the FCA an effective power to make rules capping the cost and the duration of a regulated credit agreement. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for raising this on Report and to noble Lords on all sides of the House who spoke in support of the need for action against sharp practices in the payday lending industry. The Government warmly welcome the cross-party consensus that emerged on this important issue.
As I said on Report last week, the Government were fully in agreement with the intent behind the noble Lord’s amendment but felt that there were weaknesses in the way it was framed. We have made use of the time between Report and tabling this amendment at Third Reading to get this power right and ensure that it is watertight. Moreover, I also committed to going further than the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, proposed, by making additional consumer protections integral to the power.
The Government’s amendment spells out in detail the kind of rules that the FCA may make to prevent lenders from imposing excessive interest rates or associated charges on borrowers, and clarifies that the FCA would be able to specify the level of the cap in rules and also to define which charges, in addition to interest, should be captured. The amendment also allows the FCA to impose limits on the duration of the agreement, and to specify the detail of the cap and other restrictions in its rules.
Those who have compared the Government’s amendment tabled yesterday with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, will have noted that the Government’s version is significantly longer and more comprehensive in its detail. I said last week that we would take care to frame the power to prevent unscrupulous firms exploiting loopholes and to ensure that consumers were properly protected. The Government specifically ensured that this power covers associated charges to avoid unscrupulous firms “gaming” the restrictions by, for example, reducing the interest rate but introducing exorbitant fees for related services such as setting up the loan. It also specifically captures the practice of rollovers, which we have seen abused by some players in the payday loans industry. Under the amendment the FCA will have a specific power to impose a limit on the overall duration of the rolled-over agreement and a limit on the number of rollovers that are permitted.
The government amendment has also built in robust protections for consumers who fall victim to lenders’ excessive charges. First, the FCA can provide that the lender cannot enforce the agreement and the borrower is not obliged to repay the loan. Secondly, it can provide that any money or property transferred under the agreement—an item that has been pawned, say—must be returned. Thirdly, it can provide that compensation must be paid to the consumer.
Before moving on I will address briefly one provision in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, that we omitted in tabling the Government’s version: namely, a specific reference to consumer detriment or consumer protection. That is because the FCA will already be prompted to respond when it detects consumer detriment. Under Section 137A of FiSMA the FCA may make general rules only for the purposes of advancing one or more of its operational objectives. These are: securing protection for consumers, protecting and enhancing the integrity of the financial system, and promoting effective competition. As such the consumer protection objective will provide the strong underpinning mandate for the FCA to make rules under the new power that we are discussing. It is not therefore necessary to spell it out further in the Bill.
While I am confident that our amendment clarifies the FCA’s role in this important area, we must be careful not to regard this power as a silver bullet that will fix all the problems in the payday lending sector. As the OFT’s recent report into the high-cost credit market showed, it is clear that regulation of the payday lending market as a whole needs to improve. Compared to the current regulatory regime under the OFT, the FCA will have a broader and more effective toolkit to monitor and tackle developments in the market and supervise practice among firms.
Capping the cost of credit and the number of times that the loan can be rolled over is a major market intervention, and I expect the FCA to contemplate the use of this power in a responsible and measured way. I discussed the mixed picture from international evidence on Report. We must avoid at all costs any such cap resulting in catastrophically unintended consequences, such as driving vulnerable consumers to illegal loan sharks. However, as I said on Report, we need to ensure that the FCA grasps the nettle when it comes to payday lending. This amendment grants the FCA the powers to deliver effectively on its consumer-protection objective and tackle consumer detriment. It is a power that I hope all sides of the House will wish to support. I beg to move.
Lord Mitchell
My Lords, never in my wildest dreams did I ever expect that I would be standing here at the opposition Dispatch Box with my name on an amendment alongside a government Treasury Minister. It is some achievement and could occur only in your Lordships' House and not in the other place. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby, for the very constructive way in which they responded to the amendment we put forward. They listened to what we had to say, took our comments away and came back with an amendment that is entirely acceptable to us. However, I would not like them to think that this is a complete love fest—normal service will resume at some other time.
It is worth recounting that the Government told us in Committee that the points which we wanted were already in the Bill. We tried hard to find the location of those points—and no doubt they are buried somewhere. However, with an issue like this one, which is so important, it is dangerous to have implied rules which have to be inferred. Many of these payday loan companies have very successful lawyers and access to some of the best brains in the country in this area. The provision would have been a complete dog's breakfast, to be honest.
We tried again at Report, and I admit that I came in here today ready for battle. However, I was astonished and delighted at the complete turnaround that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, has offered. He promised us a better amendment and that is what we have been given. The new amendment is stronger, tighter and more effective, and most of all, it offers complete clarity. I would not be human if I did not savour the moment just a jot. It probably will not happen again, but it is good that it has happened today.
I have been asked why the Government conceded and no doubt at some stage, over a gin and tonic, I will find out. However, I feel that it was due to two reasons —the political argument, and the moral argument. As for the political basis, the Government knew that they would be defeated last Wednesday on Report. It had been a bad couple of weeks for the Government and another defeat was something that they could do without. The moral argument, however, was more important. I was fortunate because the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe of Idlicote and Lady Grey-Thompson, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham added a non-political independent gravitas to what we were trying to do. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate.
The media also took up this cause with a vengeance. Every article and television programme that I read or saw seemed to back our position. They were against the payday lending companies. Indeed, I am sure that the man in the street in this country was also in favour of regulation. Everybody seemed to be in favour of it except for the payday loan companies themselves—and I was nobbled in the most unlikely of locations by them or their representatives telling me how wrong we were. However, the Government conceded because the political and moral arguments were absolutely against them. They did concede and I am grateful to them for the positive way in which they have dealt with this issue.
I had two questions to ask about consumer detriment and time and duration but the Minister has addressed them in his speech. He said that there was no silver bullet for this and I absolutely agree. As we go forward perhaps we should look at what is happening in other countries. I spoke at Report about the experience in Florida, which has had an amazing result. I repeat that anyone who takes out a payday loan in that state has to register it as a charge. They have to pay for it and it goes on to a database. It is known that they have a payday loan. That absolutely prevents any individual having more than one payday loan on any one occasion. That is something that we should look at for the future.
This provision will go forward and become a new law but I believe that it will also become a statement of intent. This amendment is simple, symbolic and now stands alone. This industry is going to be controlled. For many people out there, the world is now a slightly better place.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I had not intended to say anything today, because I was pleased with the amendment. The more I listened to the explanation, however, the more enthusiastic I became about it. So I wanted to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for all that he has done here, as well as to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and everybody else who has been involved in the redrafting. I am sure it will not solve all the problems. I would also like to ask when it will come into force; I imagine that it will not be all that far ahead. Nevertheless, as has been said, it is an extremely important and valuable step in the right direction.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am grateful for all those contributions. I will briefly respond to some of the specific questions. First, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked whether this means that the FCA has to go into this field. Absolutely it does; it would have to anyway. Putting all this in the Bill will concentrate the FCA’s mind wonderfully. However, as the noble Lord knows, it is an enabling power; the FCA may make these rules, but this does not say that it must make them.
On the noble Lord’s other questions about whether consumers know what they are letting themselves in for, this is one of the other areas that clearly needs attention, as I indicated in my opening remarks. Whether this is addressed under the consumer credit directive or the consumer protection regulations, it is another parallel area. I stress again that we are getting to the heart of the issue in this amendment, but this is not the sum total of it.
There were also questions about when the rules might come in. The rules will come in when the FCA gets round to making them. There is nothing to stop the OFT moving ahead. The next thing we are expecting is the academic report, which refers in some detail to the international evidence about the pros and cons of caps. That will be part of the evidence base that will be used, building up to any rules that may or may not be put in place. However, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that there is no question of secondary legislation here. We are giving the FCA a clear rule-making power; its rule-making procedures will then go for consultation, but this does not need to come back through the channel of secondary legislation.
Lastly, I turn to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith. In parenthesis, I would argue that there have certainly been financial innovations that have been beneficial, but perhaps we will leave that debate for another day. The noble Lord asked whether all costs and charges would be covered. Yes, they will—all of them. He asked when this comes into force. This specific power comes into force in April 2014, when credit becomes a regulated activity under the FCA. Of course, that will not stop the Government and the OFT looking at what may need to be done before then, but we are talking about a Bill that relates in this instance to the powers of the FCA when they are transferred over. As far as what the cap should be, that will be a matter for the FCA. It is a very difficult question that will need careful thought. As I have already indicated, the Bristol study, which is coming out very soon, will be an important contribution to that thinking. We are putting an important building block in place today, but it is not the only building block in this area.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I do not want to push my luck too much with the Minister, but he says that the rules will come in as and when the FCA decides, and that is 2014. We have a bit of time before then. Given that there is urgency regarding the adoption of this clause and all-party agreement about it, it would be good if he could elaborate on those comments so that he sends a message from here today to the industry and the regulators that this is a matter of urgency and that Parliament wishes to see early action on this matter. We do not want to wait until mid-2014. Just to add icing to the cake, will he please elaborate?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am sure that the industry has got the message loud and clear from this House that more needs to be done. Of course, it need not wait until April 2014; there are plenty of other things that can be done in the mean time if appropriate.
Lord Sassoon
“(a) rules made by the FCA under section 137BA, or”
Lord Sassoon
“(2A) The direction may not require the clearing house—
(a) to take any steps for the purpose of securing its compliance with—(i) the recognition requirements, or(ii) any obligation of a kind mentioned in section 296(1)(b) or (1A), or(b) to accept a transfer of property, rights or liabilities of another clearing house.(2B) If the direction is given in reliance on section 298(7) the Bank must, within a reasonable time of giving the direction, give the clearing house a statement of its reasons—
(a) for giving the direction, and(b) for relying on section 298(7).”
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“( ) In paragraph 11—
(a) the existing provision becomes sub-paragraph (1),(b) in sub-paragraph (1)(b), for “servant” substitute “employee”,(c) in sub-paragraph (1)(c)(ii), for “servants” substitute “employees”, and(d) after sub-paragraph (1) insert—“(2) The duties and powers that may be delegated under this paragraph do not include duties and powers that are by any enactment expressly imposed or conferred on the court of directors.””
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(b) after subsection (5) insert—“(5A) “The appropriate regulator”—(a) in relation to a controlled function which is of a description specified in rules made by the FCA, means the FCA, and (b) in relation to a controlled function which is of a description specified in rules made by the PRA, means the PRA.”, and(c) in subsection (6), after “Any” insert “other”.”
Lord Sassoon
(d) a decision under section 391(1)(c) to publish information about the matter to which a warning notice relates.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, Amendments 33 and 34 concern the new power provided for by this Bill for the regulators to disclose the fact that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued. We have of course already discussed this new power and the safeguards to which it should be subject in quite some detail. I am speaking to these two amendments again only because, as a result of being erroneously assigned on the day’s Order Paper, they were not moved on Report on 26 November. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for being the first to spot this. So to be absolutely clear, these are simply Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB—as they were—retabled from the Report stage.
To remind your Lordships briefly, Amendment 33 brings the decision to disclose the fact that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued into the list of matters subject to the procedures set out in Section 395 of FiSMA. Amendment 34 sets out the criteria with which the process for deciding to disclose a warning notice must comply, noting that the decision must be taken either by a person other than the person by whom the decision was first proposed, or by two or more persons not including the person by whom the decision was first proposed.
The amendments secure the involvement of the Regulatory Decisions Committee, or an equivalent body for decisions, to disclose the fact that warning notices have been issued. It is a proposal that the House supported and endorsed when we debated it last week.
This group of amendments may be the penultimate time that I will speak on the Bill during its passage through this House. With this in mind, perhaps noble Lords will permit me to conclude this debate by reflecting a little on the past months since our lively Second Reading debate on 11 June. It was so long ago that the England football team was still in the European Championship and preparing to play France as we were kicking off our consideration of the Bill. Of one thing we can be certain: the performance of this House on this Bill was rather better, I regret to say, than the performance of the England football team.
I believe that the Bill that we are sending back to another place is greatly improved from the Bill that we debated at Second Reading in June. That is due to the very constructive contributions and engagement from noble Lords right across the House, not least from the Bishops’ Benches, and I pay tribute to all who have contributed to those debates. No other legislative house in the world could have brought to bear such expertise in financial services and their regulation as this House has on this Financial Services Bill.
As I need to keep my closing remarks brief, I can only apologise for not naming individually the many noble Lords who have made important contributions to our debates. However, I would like to thank the opposition Front Bench—too many of them to name—led so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. They have shown real tenacity and skill in their contributions. We have not always agreed with the points that they have made, but I have always valued those points and would like to thank them for their constructive and thoughtful approach throughout.
I thank, too, my noble friends Lord Newby and Lord De Mauley for the support they have given me, not least in calming down the House when it seems to have got rather excited by some of my contributions. This has been a long Bill, and it would not have been possible to provide the level of response that the House has rightly demanded without the able assistance of my noble friends.
I should also mention and thank the Bill team, which has worked continuously to provide support to the House throughout the stages of this Bill. It has done an outstanding job, which has been widely and rightly acknowledged. The excellent work of the parliamentary counsel in drafting the Bill and the subsequent many amendments to it deserves special praise.
I believe that we have significantly improved this important Bill in key areas. We have enhanced the governance of the Bank of England; given economic growth a higher priority in the new regime, for the FPC, FCA and PRA; significantly improved the robustness of the UK financial system by bringing investment firms, recognised clearing houses and holding companies within the special resolution regime; responded to industry concerns, in particular over the new warning notice power; offered consumers better protection, particularly in relation to payday loans; and, in the LIBOR clauses, moved swiftly to tackle the shameful behaviour of some in the industry.
The Government have listened carefully to the views of noble Lords and the amended Bill reflects many of the concerns of this House. The Bill will be an important addition to the statute book, and one that has been greatly improved thanks to your Lordships’ expertise. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I rise not with respect to the amendment but to reflect on the latter comments of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. As he said, the Bill began its somewhat laborious journey with its First Reading back in May. The process has been extraordinarily laborious considering that it was a politically non-contentious Bill. We should perhaps learn some lessons from this. The main lesson is that, if there is pre-legislative scrutiny, a valuable process that we introduced, more notice should be taken of the conclusions of that scrutiny than is evident in the Bill before us. I refer particularly to the advice from the Treasury Select Committee that a new Bill be drafted rather than that we rely on the complex structure of amendments to prior legislation that we have had to wade through over the past several months.
Given the weighty nature of the work that we have had to deal with, it is appropriate to thank those who have been involved with the Bill. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to my noble friends Lady Hayter, Lord Davies, Lord Stevenson and Lord Tunnicliffe. I also thank Mr Whiting and the Bill team, who have been helpful and courteous throughout, and the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, for dealing with often complex matters and, occasionally, defending the indefensible with his usual good humour. Finally, in thanking individuals, I must thank Miss Jessica Levy, our talented and all-knowing researcher.
Effective regulation at the macro and micro level of systemic risks and the risks associated with individual firms is in the interests of households and industry and is essential for the success of the UK financial services industry. Therefore, we on this side wish this Bill well. I hope that the measures over which we have laboured will prove a success.
Banking: National Savings & Investments
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Ford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare an interest as a customer of National Savings.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, National Savings & Investments reviews its product range on a regular basis in light of its role to provide cost-effective retail debt finance to government. In doing so, it follows a policy of balancing the interests of its savers, the taxpayer and the wider stability of the financial services market.
Baroness Ford
I thank the Minister for that—albeit disappointing—reply. National Savings is probably one of the most trusted financial services brands left in the United Kingdom. The Minister knows well that all its recent issues have been massively and very quickly oversubscribed. Are the Government not missing a huge opportunity to extend the reach of National Savings to help savers and pensioners whose incomes have been absolutely hammered in the past five years due to the combination of record low interest rates and the disastrous effects of quantitative easing on annuity levels?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the Government are very well aware of the needs of savers. Those who have done the right thing in the good times should not be penalised in these difficult times and the Government understand that. Specifically on National Savings & Investments, as I said, it keeps its product range under regular review so, of course, it looks to see when it is appropriate to bring products back in. However, it has to balance the need to deliver finance to the Government at rates that represent value for money for the taxpayer and the need not to compete unfairly in the savings market by offering products that compete with other providers in the market. The noble Baroness may look askance at that but I assure her that I get constant complaints from the retail savings market if it thinks that NS&I is using its power unfairly in the market.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, will my noble friend accept my warmest congratulations on the announcement by the Chancellor today that he will consult on allowing AIM shares to be included in ISAs, following the persistent representations of my noble friend Lord Lee of Trafford?
Lord Sassoon
I am very happy to accept what my noble friend has said. I have probably answered more questions on AIM shares and ISAs than on practically any other topic. It is also worth saying that it has been announced in today’s Statement that the ISA limit will go up in line with inflation in April 2013—so, by another £240, to £11,520—enabling 24 million people to continue to benefit.
Lord May of Oxford
My Lords, why is NS&I no longer issuing tax-free, index-linked savings certificates? They are an extraordinarily effective instrument for some who wish just to preserve the real value of their savings, free of greed. Thus, it seems to me a particularly meritorious and efficacious instrument. Why is it no longer issuing new issues?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, NS&I takes index-linked and fixed-interest savings certificates on and off sale. When they were last on offer, during 2011, demand reached completely unprecedented levels. It meant that the sales volumes far exceeded what was anticipated and what represented value for money in terms of the target that the Treasury set for NS&I.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I nearly forgot my question. The Minister referred to looking askance at his answer. I must say that I associate myself with my noble friend. Is he not aware that a more positive response would have been to say, “Yes, it is an extremely good idea to improve the range of savings products out of fairness to small savers. It will raise the propensity to save and increase the flow of funds to the Treasury”. In the light of the most ludicrous Autumn Statement in living memory, I would have thought that the Treasury would like to have all the help that it can possibly get.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, there are 26 million savers with NS&I. We take their interests very seriously. They have over £100 billion invested. It is one of the largest savings organisations in the country, and that will continue.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I would like to challenge the Minister’s comments on NS&I. Funding for Lending is a taxpayer-driven programme which has created the collateral damage of allowing banks to cut the interest rate that they offer on savings products, and NS&I has had to follow by cutting its interest rates on savings products. At this time, when savers are under such pressure, could the Minister consider lifting the best-buy restriction so that NS&I could start leading the industry back into paying decent savings returns rather than following the industry on a downward spiral?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, this raises many complex issues. I would simply say that a critical part of NS&I’s remit is to raise money for the Government on value-for-money terms. Secondly, I can assure the House that the Government are certainly not going to get into, in any way, unfairly competing in the savings market, which needs to be a vibrant, fair and free competitive market.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister has now indicated the conflict through two answers. He has just said that the role of NS&I is to raise money for the Government, and we all know its excellent reputation—but he also said earlier that it is there to look after the interests of savers, who are consistently getting a rate of return below the rate of inflation. How can that be fair?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, what is fair is that the Government have very considerable concern about savers. I have mentioned the ISA annual limit going up by inflation in April; consulting on whether AIM shares should be eligible to be in ISAs; introducing simple financial products; setting up the Money Advice Service; having a generous new single-tier pension; and raising the cap today on pension draw-downs from 100% to 120%. The Government take the interests of savers very seriously.
Autumn Statement
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, your Lordships still have me here for a little longer; I am not retiring yet. I refer the House to the Autumn Statement made earlier in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, copies of which have been made available in the Printed Paper Office and the text of which will be printed in full in the Official Report. I commend my right honourable friend’s Statement to this House.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said earlier in another place, the British economy is healing. We are on the right track and turning back now would be a disaster. The deficit has already been cut by a quarter and is forecast to continue falling every year of the Parliament. I find it extraordinary that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, questions the OBR’s explanation of this by saying that policy decisions are in some way fiddling the books. It is precisely because of the policy decisions that we took in the Budget and are taking again today that that deficit reduction continues to be on track at the same pace.
Since this Government took office, more than 1 million private sector jobs have been created and exports to emerging markets have doubled. In a tough global economic climate we are making progress. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, referred to the growth forecast. The OBR’s growth forecast for the UK next year is that the economy will grow faster than, for example, that of France or Germany.
Let me remind your Lordships of a few examples of how the Government are protecting the economy, supporting growth and ensuring fairness, and of the measures that have been welcomed today. The Government have confirmed an extra £5.5 billion of additional infrastructure investment and support for businesses. That is in addition to the similar £5 billion switch from current to capital expenditure last year. The noble Lord may talk about drops in the ocean but the position now is that public and private infrastructure investment in this country is running at £33 billion a year. Under the previous Government, total average annual infrastructure spending was £29 billion. It is very important that we invest in the future of our infrastructure.
There will be a further 1% cut in the main rate of corporation tax from April 2014 to 21%, bringing it down to its lowest level—far lower than that of our most direct competitors and one of the lowest in the G20—and from this coming April the personal allowance will rise by a further £235 on top of the rise previously announced, making it the highest cash increase ever.
I shall now answer one or two of the other points made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on quantitative easing. First, the numbers are set out scrupulously transparently to show the effects before and after the transfer of cash on the income side from the APF to the Treasury. The numbers are completely clear. On his question about the contingency, the contingent liability on QE has been set out, and will continue to be set out in the notes to the whole of the Government’s accounts, as it should be. The OBR, in its document, points out, the effect of QE on its central case when it unwinds as being a significant reduction in debt.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asks about the distributional effects of all of this. This is an important question, because he asks about transparency and the way we disclose the numbers. The previous Government never set out the distributional effects of their Budgets or Autumn Statements in their pre-Budget reports. We have published today on the Treasury website an 18-page document that goes further than even this Government have gone before in their distributional analysis, with several new tables that I warmly commend to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. These confirm, as at every stage in this Government’s deficit reduction plan, that those with the broadest shoulders bear the largest brunt. That is there in the document “Impact on households”.
So, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the deficit is down, borrowing is down and jobs are being created. It is a hard road, but we are making progress and, in everything we do, we are helping those who want to work hard and get on.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, perhaps I may remind noble Lords that Statements are a time for brief comments and questions. The briefer the questions the greater the number of noble Lords who will be able to contribute, so I urge everybody to be considerate.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this may be my only opportunity to pay tribute to My noble Friend Lord Sassoon before he steps down from the Front Bench, so let me do so. As any Minister, he will have expected fire from across the Chamber, but he has also had fire from over his right shoulder on occasion, and he has dealt with it extremely graciously. For many of us, the test of a Minister is how he and his team deal with Back-Benchers. Based on that test, he has been a superb Minister and we will miss him.
The Statement that the Chancellor presented to us today meets the test of being both tough and fair. It is remarkable that, despite the economic conditions that we face, the deficit is still reducing, which will have surprised many of the pundits but I am sure will have pleased this entire House.
As a Liberal Democrat I am most pleased about the decision by the Government to lift the threshold of the starting rate of tax one more time to £9,440. It was utterly unexpected. When this Government came in, that threshold was £6,475. To its credit, the coalition committed to raising it to £10,000. We are only half way through a Parliament, but it is at this point only £560 below its target. The impact is something like £600 more in the pocket of ordinary working people and more than 2 million people taken out of income tax altogether. In this time of economic stress, that is a phenomenal achievement. The Government should be congratulated.
I was pleased that the welfare cuts were well below those that were anticipated; I can see I am being asked to move to a question very quickly, so I will ask one in this way. Growth, as we all know, is now the holy grail that we attempt to achieve for this economy. Does the Minister agree that it now utterly depends on access to credit for the businesses that make up our economy? Will he commit to making sure, when he talks to his Treasury team, that the restructuring of the banks allows a new competitive environment with new entrants and new players that can deliver the kind of credit we need to the small businesses that are the backbone of our economy?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for her generous remarks and for her support since she has been her party’s spokesperson on the economy. The two parties are joined at the hip when it comes to the key economic work and all the other work of the Government. Importantly, she reminds us of a critical part of the Autumn Statement: raising the tax threshold to the benefit of 25 million people. That is very important.
On credit and access to credit, I draw the attention of the House and my noble friend to the comments of the OBR today. Its judgment is that the funding for lending scheme will lower rates for credit but increase availability. I very much share my noble friend’s concern to see a more competitive banking landscape emerge. In that context, it is interesting to note that the funding for lending facility is being taken up and having a disproportionate effect on some of the new challenger banks. I hope that that continues and that they continue to be able to increase their lending responsibly off the back of that scheme.
Lord Myners
My Lords, perhaps I may add my personal congratulations to the Minister. He has always brought great skill, tact, humour and optimism to his role on the Front Bench. It is a shame that that optimism has not seen the prize delivered because today’s economic Statement is a lamentable one. Against the two principal, navigating stars that the Chancellor of the Exchequer set—the fiscal mandate and a supplementary objective—he has missed, and missed by a country mile. On the first, he has been required to push austerity even further into the next Parliament and, on the second one, he makes only a modest reduction in debt as a percentage of GDP in the year 2017-18, but it is still 3% higher than in the current year. The policy of austerity-led expansion is clearly not working. An extra 1% of GDP growth during the lifetime of this Parliament would have reduced by five percentage points the proportion of debt to GDP. Growth is the key to reducing the deficit.
There are things in the Chancellor’s Statement that I find very commendable, particularly the extension of the dual carriageway of the A30 in my beloved Cornwall. Whether the right honourable Michael Gove will appreciate the use of the word “dualling” as a verb in the Chancellor’s Statement is questionable and I wonder whether Mr Gove would appreciate the arithmetic error in the Chancellor’s Statement on the increase in the inheritance tax nil band.
The Chancellor makes some very good points about attacking tax havens. So my question relates to suggesting to the Minister that, when we chair the G8, we should seriously consider saying that no G8 bank can operate in an offshore centre with a subsidiary or a branch. If, in the future, the banks of the Channel Islands—Guernsey and Jersey—were domestic banks rather than branches of subsidiaries of the world’s leading banks, most of the attraction of using despicable offshore tax havens would fall away.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, that seemed to be a speech rather than a question. However, I am grateful for some of what the noble Lord, Lord Myners, had to say and I shall miss sparring with him. I remain an optimist. In less than three years since the previous election, the private sector in this country has created 1.8 million new jobs, which is twice what the OBR projected, and the OBR’s projection today for the period up to 2018 is that 2.4 million further new private sector jobs will be created at a time when it estimates that public sector employment will be reduced by 1.1 million. Times are difficult, but I remain optimistic about the underlying strength and vibrancy of the private sector in this economy.
As to the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, about offshore centres, some of the issues that he raises are certainly on the agenda, but it is inappropriate to talk about offshore centres and others. The key thing is to make sure that the so-called offshore centres are brought up to the standards of the best. Some of them have made huge strides; others need to. I take his points.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, does my noble friend not think it remarkable that the Official Opposition have no proposals for reducing the deficit by cutting public expenditure, and that there does not appear to be a scintilla of humility for the fact that they were running a deficit of some £70 billion at the height of the boom times? It was their irresponsible conduct over the economy that has got us into this mess. Should the Chancellor not be congratulated on not being more outraged at the response that he has had from the Opposition, in which former spokesmen are reduced to criticising the grammar of the Statement rather than its content? The truth is that they have nothing to offer the country to get us out of the mess that they created.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend and agree with every word that he uttered.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his personal courtesies to me since I have been a Member of your Lordships’ House.
I welcome the increased allowances for small businesses and the reductions in corporation tax. Will the further reductions in corporation tax dissuade the Minister’s right honourable friend the Prime Minister from considering devolving corporation tax-setting powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly? Secondly, will he consider once more a reduction of VAT to encourage the retrofitting of buildings so that they can not only be improved from an energy-efficiency point of view but benefit from a tax holiday on VAT for a small period of time, which would have limited dead-weight potential but would stimulate the construction sector? Will he give further consideration to those two points?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the question of corporation tax in Northern Ireland continues to be considered. The key thing is that we are making the United Kingdom as a whole a more competitive place and in corporate tax terms the most competitive place to do business among our major competitors. Of course, the position in Northern Ireland will continue to be debated.
As far as the reduction in VAT is concerned, this is a case that is made regularly. We believe that what we have announced today—the two-year increase in the investment allowance—is a better way of targeting the limited resources that we have, in addition to what we have done on the basic rate of corporation tax.
Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend on what he has achieved in his time in the House. I wish him well in whatever he chooses to do next. I agree that it is depressing that he has to leave us on the back of a Statement that shows the growth forecast having to be lowered.
It is worth noting that in the Blue Book the GDP fall in 2008-09 has been revisited and has come down by a massive 6.3%. Given that background, it is hardly surprising that the efforts to rebuild the economy are proving difficult. Nevertheless, in this Statement there are several things that will make a major contribution to improving the economy, and I congratulate my right honourable friend the Chancellor on the things he is doing to encourage investment and infrastructure investment.
Does my noble friend share my concerns and those that were voiced recently by Sir Mervyn King, the current Governor of the Bank of England, that one thing that is going to hold back growth in the economy is if the banks do not acknowledge the real state of their balance sheets and take the hits that they should?
Lord Sassoon
Again, I am grateful to my noble friend for her kind words. It is also important that the House recognises that the damage done by the fall in GDP as a consequence of the structural position and the mess left behind by the previous Government, combined with the financial crisis, continues to be assessed as worse and worse. As my noble friend said, it is now estimated to be a fall in GDP of an extraordinary 6.3%.
I also agree with my noble friend that it is important that the banks are realistic about the state of their balance sheets. Linking back to the debate on the Financial Services Bill that we had earlier this afternoon, it is important that the new Financial Policy Committee—up and running now for a period in shadow form—is beginning to get to grips with these issues. These sorts of things were never debated and put on the table by the authorities in the past, when the punchbowl should have been taken away. So my noble friend is completely right.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I also wish the Minister well for the future and add my concern to that expressed already about whether this mini-Budget will trigger the necessary growth. Specifically, with regard to the commitment in the Autumn Statement of £5.5 billion in additional infrastructure investment and the consequential £227 million additional capital funding available to the Welsh Government, will he confirm that that spending can be allocated as desired by the Welsh Government and does not need to follow the pattern of the £5.5 billion that has generated it? Will he also confirm that in the discussions that have taken place between the Treasury and the Welsh Government over recent weeks with regard to the enhanced capital allowance in enterprise zones, that is not assumed to be coming out of that money?
Lord Sassoon
I believe that I can confirm both points. The allocation will be for the Welsh Administration in the normal way. I believe that the noble Lord’s understanding on the second point is correct. If it is not, I will correct that understanding.
Lord Flight
My Lords, I add my own appreciation of the Minister’s work and success. He has always shown patience, attention to detail, wit and great courtesy and I, too, wish him success and fulfilment in whatever he does next.
The national plan has identified £200 billion of infrastructure investment in transport and communications and about another £200 billion for the energy sector. The financing of that is fairly readily available. For the sovereign wealth funds of the world, it is an attractive investment. I was amazed to find that even the Agricultural Bank of China is setting up in London and is dead keen to put up loan finance. Indeed, it is putting up the loan finance for the improvements to the main road between Edinburgh and Glasgow.
There are also pension funds—who wants to buy gilts at present yields when you might get 4%, 5% or 6% on an infrastructure project? The funding is there, but when I asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how much was likely to happen over the next three years, he could not give an answer. There are still delays caused by the way that the planning system works and because of environmental requirements. Now is just the time when this country needs to make those infrastructure investments and get a move on with them. Will the Government look at further measures that they can take to delay these bureaucratic constraints on the infrastructure investment getting going?
Lord Sassoon
I could spend the rest of the three minutes and a lot longer on this but I will be brief. Again, I am grateful to my noble friend for his remarks.
On how the infrastructure is funded, there is still a need for a large debt component in many of the projects, and the debt markets continue to be very difficult. My noble friend is completely right about the appetite of the sovereign wealth funds and I will be going to the Gulf again to visit a number of them next week. But the debt component remains difficult.
As to whether the investment is flowing through, total private and public investment in infrastructure is now running at £33 billion per year compared to an average of £29 billion per year under the previous Government—even with all the investment in social infrastructure that went on. While there is more to be done, that is an important number.
There are other areas, yes, where we need to make more progress. I draw my noble friend’s attention to the policy decisions on energy over the last week, which should now enable the energy markets and investors to invest in a broad sweep of nuclear, renewable and gas assets.
Lord Hollick
My Lords, I add my congratulations to the Minister. Optimistic he may be, but what remarkable chutzpah he and the Chancellor have shown on a day when they have missed all their key targets.
I wonder if he could help me with just a couple of points in the blizzard of information that we have had today. Is there any increasing demand as a result of the measures announced? As the Minister knows, demand is absolutely essential if we are to have growth and it would appear that the OBR has taken into account all the measures but has still downgraded significantly the growth over the next five years.
Secondly, in Annex B.1 of the Treasury document, the suggestion is that the bottom three deciles of the population will bear about three-quarters of the burden of the fiscal consolidation. In 2015-16, 96% of the reduction will be borne by cuts in welfare and public spending; only 4% will come from tax increases. That is rather different from the 80:20 the Chancellor talked about.
Finally, on the question of interesting accounting, the Autumn Statement includes receipt in the current financial year of £3.5 billion from the auction of the 4G spectrum, which is yet to take place. This receipt is apparently used in the current year to reduce the debt, but appears then to be used in the following financial year to finance spending plans. How can that be?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, first, the test of increase in demand will ultimately be the growth numbers. The OBR has set out its forecast of growth numbers and—I can only repeat—it is forecasting higher growth next year for the UK compared to countries such as France and Germany.
On the question of the distribution, I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, to the new chart on the overall level of benefit and public spending receipts in the supplementary document, which shows that, contrary to what the noble Lord is saying, the overall result is significantly progressive across the quintiles.
The deficit reduction plan will continue to be on a 80:20 basis; in other words, with 80% of the deficit consolidation coming from spending reductions and only 20% from tax—just as it was before today. That has not changed. As far as the spectrum auction is concerned, the £3.5 billion has been certified by the OBR as its central estimate of the money that will be coming in this tax year.
Financial Services Bill
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Sassoon
“(1) This section applies where—
(a) the Treasury consider that it is in the public interest that either regulator should undertake an investigation into any relevant events, and(b) it does not appear to the Treasury that the regulator has undertaken or is undertaking an investigation (under this Part or otherwise) into those events.(1A) The Treasury must”
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, this group of amendments concerns Part 5, which is concerned with inquiries and investigations. It carries forward provisions relating to independent inquiries called by the Treasury and applies these powers to both the PRA and the FCA, also introducing a number of new provisions for the regulators to carry out investigations when regulatory failure has occurred, or may have occurred. As such, Part 5 is a very important part of the Bill, as indeed my noble friend Lady Noakes noted when she described the provisions in it as “crucial to the Bill” when we last discussed these matters on 25 October. During our discussions on that day, I indicated that I would go away and consider carefully the important points made by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I also promised to reflect further on a topic on which we have spent many a happy hour—namely, the uses of “may” and “must” in the Bill.
I hope that noble Lords will be pleased to note that the Government are bringing forward a number of amendments informed by our previous discussion of Part 5. Amendments 107B and 107C amend Clause 76, which provides the Treasury with a power to require either regulator to carry out an investigation when the Treasury considers it in the public interest for the regulator to do so. The current drafting of Clause 76 provides that in such circumstances the Treasury may order an investigation. Amendment 107B changes this discretion to a duty by changing “may” to “must”, and Amendment 107C is consequential on Amendment 107B. The Government agree with the points made that when the public interest test is met, surely the Treasury must require an investigation. Changing “may” to “must” is the right course of action. If an investigation by the regulator is in the public interest, and the regulator is not already carrying one out, then it is right that the Treasury should be required to order an investigation.
Amendment 107D responds to issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in Committee. The amendment provides that where the Treasury directs either regulator not to carry out an investigation into possible regulatory failure or otherwise gives a direction to the regulator as to how it should carry out such an investigation, then such a direction should be laid before Parliament. The amendment also provides that the Treasury should do so as soon as is practicable after issuing the direction. I share the view of those contributing to debate in Committee that this will increase transparency and therefore confidence in the regulatory regime. However, in recognition of the fact that there may sometimes be circumstances where laying the direction before Parliament could have negative and unintended consequences, the amendment provides that the Treasury need not lay the direction before Parliament if doing so would be against the public interest. I beg to move.
Lord Barnett
It behoves me to say thank you to the noble Lord. It is hard to believe that the amendment that my noble friend and I tabled has now been accepted. I do not know what to say. Thank you is the only thing I can say.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(fa) provide for any provision of sections 162 to 165 and 174A of CCA 1974 which relates to—(i) the powers of a local weights and measures authority in Great Britain or the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland in relation to compliance with any provision made by or under CCA 1974, (ii) the powers of such an authority or that Department in relation to the commission or suspected commission of offences under any provision made by or under CCA 1974, (iii) the powers that may be conferred by warrant on an officer of such an authority or that Department, or(iv) things done in the exercise of any of those powers,to apply in relation to compliance with FSMA 2000 so far as relating to relevant regulated activities, in relation to the commission or suspected commission of a relevant offence or in relation to things done in the exercise of any of those powers as applied by the order;”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I speak early in this debate. The amendment explores how the FCA will regulate the payday lending sector. The Government have been clear from the outset that the FCA should be able to take action to address the problems that are rife in the payday loans sector and, indeed, in the consumer credit sector more widely. That is why the Bill in its current form already empowers the FCA to make rules regarding the regulation of payday loans when credit regulation is transferred to the FCA in 2014.
I welcome the opportunity to debate this important issue. The Government are, like all of us, concerned about the appalling behaviour of some firms in this sector and the harm that vulnerable consumers suffer as a result. I shall say up front that, if the noble Lord agrees to withdraw this amendment, I will table a government amendment for debate at Third Reading that will address the issues raised by the noble Lord. The Government will go further, not only embedding stronger payday loan regulation in primary legislation but ironing out the potential weaknesses that they see in today’s amendment.
I cannot accept the noble Lord’s amendment as I think that the Government can, with the additional resources provided by officials and parliamentary counsel, improve on it in a number of ways. But, first, allow me to put on record three important points about the problems in the payday loans sector and how the Government will ensure that the FCA will be able to address these problems. Just last week, the OFT set out a wide range of concerns about detrimental practices in the payday loans sector, from firms failing to perform adequate checks that customers can afford a loan to a lack of forbearance when consumers are in financial difficulty. While restrictions imposed on the cost and duration of credit may address some of these problems, it is clear that regulation of the high-cost credit market as a whole needs to improve. Compared to the current regulatory regime under the OFT, the FCA will have a broader and more effective toolkit to monitor and tackle developments in the market and to supervise practice among firms. Its consumer protection objective provides the FCA with the mandate to use those powers and tools.
Secondly, capping the cost of credit and the number of times the loan can be rolled over is a major market intervention. It could bring huge benefits for consumers, as a recent study in Japan has indicated, but experience in Germany and France has shown that there can be equally momentous unintended consequences, including reduced access to credit for the poorest and most vulnerable consumers, even driving them to illegal loan sharks. These international lessons demonstrate that we need robust evidence to support any decision to introduce such a cap.
As noble Lords may be aware, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has commissioned research from Bristol University into the impact of a cap on the total cost of credit. This is one of the most comprehensive pieces of research undertaken into the UK high-cost credit market. I am pleased to confirm that the research will be published in the next few weeks and will enable the Government and, in future, the FCA to take an evidence-based approach to regulating the high-cost credit market and, in particular, to assess the pros and cons of a cap on the cost of credit.
However, we need to ensure that the FCA grasps the nettle when it comes to payday lending and has specific powers to impose a cap on the cost of credit and to ensure that the loan cannot be rolled over indefinitely should it decide, having considered the evidence, that this is the right solution. In this, I am entirely in agreement with the noble Lord. So, while I support the spirit of the amendment, I cannot accept it as it is framed as it may have unintended consequences and introduce loopholes which could be exploited by unscrupulous firms. For example, the amendment refers to the,
“maximum duration of a supply of a product or service”.
Firms might offer an ostensibly new product or agreement in order to circumvent the cap on the duration of the agreement. The amendment also focuses on the terms of the credit agreement and does not pick up charges imposed under connected agreements, which may often be significant. Again, this would open up a potential loophole for firms to exploit.
However, the Government believe that there is scope to go further than this amendment and to put in place stronger, automatic consumer protections and make the deterrent effect more robust by providing that a breach of these rules would make the agreement unenforceable by the lender. I will draft an amendment and discuss it with the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, to ensure that it fully meets his concerns, as I believe it will—I believe it will go further—and I can confirm explicitly that it will cover both the total cost and total duration of credit.
Lord Sassoon
If the noble Lord will permit me, I will allow him to intervene in a moment, but let me conclude my argument.
Our objectives here are the same: they are to ensure that consumers of financial services have access to credit when they need it and at a price they can afford; and to ensure that the regulator is under a clear obligation, and fully empowered, to ensure that consumers are protected. I hope and expect, therefore, that when the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, sees the draft amendment he will feel able to add his name to what the Government propose.
Lord Peston
What the noble Lord said is extremely welcome and conciliatory to all of us. However, he left out one part: when will the rest of us get to see this draft amendment—I believe it is proposed that Third Reading should be next Wednesday—so that we, too, can scrutinise it to see whether it meets the requirement? One of the most compelling parts of the noble Lord’s argument was how difficult this area is—I thought it was all very simple—and he outlined a series of problems which he claims that he and his officials will solve. Has he actually solved them? Does the draft amendment exist and will we see it no later than, say, this Friday?
Lord Sassoon
I assure the House that I will get the amendment drafted as soon as we possibly can. I have given as clear a commitment as I can give to the House that the amendment will cover the two specific points that the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, and the other noble Lords who have put their names to the amendment are looking for. However, we want to go further. If we are going to do this, we should get it right. This is a critical area which needs cleaning up and I am fully confident that when your Lordships see the draft amendment it will command the acceptance of the House.
In conclusion, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. I look forward to further debate on this important issue at Third Reading and on the stronger and more effective amendment that we will bring forward.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lord Mitchell, the right reverend Prelate and other noble Lords for bringing forward this amendment today. I also pay tribute to the Member for Walthamstow in the other place, who has done more than anybody else to bring forward this issue. I would like clarification from the Government on the amendment that they will bring forward at Third Reading. Will it enable interest rates to be capped? That is key here; the cost of the charges and the interest rates levied are the nub of the issue. If that matter is not dealt with, we will unfortunately be back here at Third Reading and all sides will be very cross about it. Will the Minister clarify that?
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I share the gratitude of the House to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, to my right reverend friend the Bishop of Durham and to others for bringing forward the amendment, and to the Minister for his response. I could talk about examples in Leeds very similar to those which people have raised. However, I will raise two particular points. The one point at which I was concerned at the Minister’s response was when he talked about the danger—which I acknowledge—of driving people into the murky world of illegal loan sharks. That is true and it can happen, but it is very important that we do not allow it to dominate the way in which we establish these provisions.
Where illegal lending is taking place, it needs to be dealt with by prosecution. We need to encourage the police to take action. That should not prevent us from being very firm in the way in which we—the law—control the debt industry. The Minister cited Japan as a good example of a society where that control appears to have worked. It would be interesting to see what contrasts there are between Japan, France and Germany, to ensure that we provide proper control and do not give in to illegal loan sharks because of their power.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for raising the point that there needs to be credit available. One thing that I have not heard very much about in these debates, although we talked about it often in the past, is the role of credit unions. Those unions seek to tackle debt but their growth has been sadly limited in this country and they appear to be unable to provide the necessary cover to give security to those struggling in our society, although the work that they do is excellent. I hope that as we go forward in discussing the issue of debt, we shall encourage credit unions to play a much greater part in providing a way forward and one answer to the major issues that we face.
Lord Sassoon
“Payment to Treasury of penalties received by Financial Services Authority
(1) The Financial Services Authority (“the FSA”) must in respect of its financial year beginning with 1 April 2012 and each subsequent financial year pay to the Treasury its penalty receipts after deducting its enforcement costs.
(2) The FSA’s “penalty receipts” in respect of a financial year are any amounts received by it during the year by way of penalties imposed under FSMA 2000.
(3) The FSA’s “enforcement costs” in respect of a financial year are the expenses incurred by it during the year in connection with—
(a) the exercise, or consideration of the possible exercise, of any of its enforcement powers in particular cases, or (b) the recovery of penalties imposed under FSMA 2000.(4) For this purpose the FSA’s enforcement powers are—
(a) its powers under any of the provisions mentioned in subsection (5),(b) its powers under any other enactment specified by the Treasury by order,(c) its powers in relation to the investigation of relevant offences, and(d) its powers in England and Wales or Northern Ireland in relation to the prosecution of relevant offences.(5) The provisions referred to in subsection (4)(a) are the following provisions of FSMA 2000—
(a) section 56 (prohibition orders),(b) section 63A (penalties relating to performance of controlled functions without approval),(c) section 66 (disciplinary powers in relation to approved persons),(d) section 87M (public censure of issuer),(e) section 89 (public censure of sponsor),(f) section 89K (public censure of issuer),(g) section 91 (penalties for breach of Part 6 rules),(h) section 123 (penalties in case of market abuse),(i) section 131G (short selling etc: power to impose penalty or issue censure),(j) sections 205, 206 and 206A (disciplinary measures),(k) section 249 (disqualification of auditor for breach of trust scheme rules),(l) section 345 (disqualification of auditor or actuary), and(m) Part 25 (injunctions and restitution).(6) “Relevant offences” are—
(a) offences under FSMA 2000,(b) offences under subordinate legislation made under that Act,(c) offences falling within section 402(1) of that Act, and(d) any other offences specified by the Treasury by order.(7) The Treasury may give directions to the FSA as to how the FSA is to comply with its duty under subsection (1).
(8) The directions may in particular—
(a) specify descriptions of expenditure that are, or are not, to be regarded as incurred in connection with either of the matters mentioned in subsection (3),(b) relate to the calculation and timing of the deduction in respect of the FSA’s enforcement costs, and(c) specify the time when any payment is required to be made to the Treasury.(9) The directions may also require the FSA to provide the Treasury at specified times with information relating to—
(a) penalties that the FSA has imposed under FSMA 2000, or(b) the FSA’s enforcement costs.(10) The Treasury must pay into the Consolidated Fund any sums received by them under this section.
(11) The scheme operated by the FSA under paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 to FSMA 2000 is, in the case of penalties received by the FSA on or after 1 April 2012, to apply only in relation to sums retained by the FSA as a result of the deduction for which subsection (1) provides.
(12) When section 6(2) is fully in force, the Treasury may by order repeal this section.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the regulation of commercial debt management services. It explores the extent to which firms that supply debt management services on commercial terms, or on terms that otherwise might cause consumer detriment, can be subject to specific rules or sanctions.
I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, cannot be here but I well understand his concerns about the commercial debt management sector. However, it is worth saying in his absence, because we have touched on these things with him before, that he does an excellent job as chairman of StepChange, the debt advice charity which also provides not-for-profit debt management services. I share many of his concerns as they are reflected in the presentation of the amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe.
Unscrupulous practices in the sector can cause real harm to vulnerable consumers struggling with debt problems—precisely those who desperately need help. However, I do not agree that the FCA should take action against commercial debt management companies just because they are offering these services on a commercial basis. The Government believe that it is important that consumers have access to debt management services to help them manage their debts where this is the right solution for them. But the Government also hold firm to the principle that consumers should have the choice to pay for these services if they wish to. They also acknowledge that there is a risk that not-for-profit debt advice and debt management providers may not be able to satisfy all the demand in the market.
In that context, I would like to highlight the important role of the Money Advice Service in signposting consumers to high quality, free-to-client debt advice services and in taking a strong strategic role in working with other organisations that provide debt advice to ensure that the market works effectively to help consumers struggling with debts. In April this year, the Money Advice Service took responsibility for the funding and management of face-to-face debt advice projects from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and thus ensured the continuation of an important service which is currently on target to help around 150,000 people with debt problems this year.
Money advice and debt advice are, of course, two sides of the same coin. Promotion of financial capability and better money management will prevent people from getting into problem debt, while high-quality debt advice will ensure that those who find themselves with unmanageable debt are able to access appropriate specialist debt advice. In addition to funding and managing face-to-face services, the Money Advice Service has an important role in working with other organisations that provide debt services, in order to improve the availability, quality and consistency of the service available. The expectation is therefore that the Money Advice Service will continue to work with stakeholders such as StepChange, Citizens Advice, the Money Advice Trust and others to improve the long-term quality and effectiveness of the advice available. This will result in a more consistent sector, where there is agreement on what constitutes a full and effective debt advice service. This is clearly a challenging role for the Money Advice Service to undertake, and effective dialogue with its stakeholders and proper accountability will be key. So I encourage stakeholders in the sector to work with the service and to engage with its debt advice forum and the consultation on its business plan in the new year.
I, and the Government, entirely support the intent behind the amendment to ensure that the commercial debt management sector is subject to stronger supervision, more robust requirements and more stringent sanctions than is currently the case. The transfer of debt management company regulation from the OFT to the FCA will mark a significant shift in approach and powers. The FCA’s consumer protection objective will give it a strong mandate to take effective action to ensure that vulnerable consumers are protected from rogue debt management firms. That enables it to take action in the area of fees, if it believes that that is necessary and appropriate. With that, I hope that the noble Lord has the reassurances he seeks and feels able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tunnicliffe
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, for his remarks. I, too, am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, is not here; he is not only our expert on debt advice services but, apparently, our expert on the wreck of the “HMS Victory”, sunk in 1744, and he is participating in a debate in the Moses Room.
I hear what the Minister says. He goes quite a long way towards what we are seeking to achieve with the amendment. Ideally, we would like it in the Bill, but with his assurances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am very tempted to get a few things off my chest as well about some personal experiences of the sort that we have all had, but the horse may well have long gone if I do. However, I am sure that the banks and the Payment Council are indeed listening. My noble friend has again raised an important point. Let me address two things: first, what we can or cannot do through legislation in this area and, secondly, what to do in practical terms given that I think my noble friend was accepting that it was unlikely that the Government would accept this amendment, which indeed we will not and cannot. I will explain why but let me go on to say how, prompted by his useful thoughts on this subject, I propose to take things further forward.
The essential reason why this amendment does not work comes back to the money-laundering regulations that implement the EU’s third money-laundering directive. Rightly or wrongly, it is just a fact of life that it is not compatible with the directive to require the new bank to rely on the checks carried out by the old bank in all cases. Neither is it compatible with the directive to provide that the new bank is not legally liable where it relies on checks carried out by the old bank, because under the directive each bank is responsible for ensuring that adequate checks have been carried out on all its customers.
I know my noble friend may say that moving the information across does not necessarily take one all the way down that path, but this is getting pretty close to encouraging the banks to do something that is not compatible with the directive by suggesting pretty strongly, if not requiring it, that they rely on the checks of the old bank. We must remember that switching can be between two accounts that are already open and we should distinguish, as I am sure my noble friend does, between switching and account opening. They are not the same thing because we could be talking about switching between existing accounts that an individual has opened.
Having said that I cannot accept the amendment, I shall talk about what I am trying to push forward. I was very struck by the example of Metro Bank and driving licences, because I was not aware of it. I have asked my officials to conduct an exercise with the banks to find out who is doing what, and I have already discovered that Metro Bank is not unique and one or two others are using driving licences.
I, as the Treasury, cannot tell banks how to do their “know your customer” due diligence, and neither can the FSA. However, I am initiating a dialogue with the banks to encourage them to think constructively that a driving licence is already good enough for a number of banks, and plainly it could make things a lot easier for their banks. Because the majority of banks have done it in different ways for a number of years, at the very least I want to ensure, either directly with the banks or through the BBA, that they revisit the practices of the past few years and consider whether there is something more that they can do.
My noble friend Lord Flight has served a very useful purpose in raising this topic during the passage of the Bill, and I intend to continue to press the banks to think harder about the burdens that they are putting on their new and existing customers in relation to the responsibilities that the banks themselves have under the money-laundering regulations. I hope that with that explanation my noble friend might consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Flight
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his supportive response and my noble friends Lord Trenchard and Lady Kramer for their support. I am delighted to hear that my noble friend Lady Kramer will be pursuing this aspect as part of the banking review; I make the simple point that it is obvious that it should be easy to move accounts. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for her support.
I would not say that I was surprised but I am interested to note that the Minister cited yet another example of protectionist practices in the EU. To the extent that what he described is there to stop the transfer of such information or to make it unacceptable, it is clearly a barrier to trade. Anyone in the financial services industry who thinks that the single market means a free and competitive one has another thought coming, because the practical barriers to trade and financial services in the EU are substantial at a retail level. I am not sure if the Minister is right, however, because the law as it stands is that it is up to each bank to do what it wants to or feels is necessary and adequate to comply with its “know your customer” due diligence, and I would have thought that if the new bank got all this information it could make it a decision that it thought was sufficient.
I say to my noble friend Lord Trenchard that my amendment provided 10 working days for the information to be transferred once you had given notice that you were going to move your account.
Lord Sassoon
“Bank of England Act 1998 | Section 1(3).” |
Lord Sassoon
“( ) an order under section 36(2) (power to amend sections 391 and 395 of FSMA 2000);”
Lord Sassoon
“(1A) The FSA may disclose to the Bank of England any information which the FSA considers that it is necessary or expedient to disclose to the Bank in preparation for the commencement of any provision of this Act conferring functions on the Bank.”
Lord Sassoon
I will not take up much time. It would be nice to end this mini-marathon of a Report stage with a flourish, but this is not going to be terribly exciting and will not detain us for very long.
Amendments 118A and 118B are minor technical amendments to the transitional provisions in Schedule 20. They enable the FSA to disclose information to the Bank of England in advance of the new regime coming into force to allow the Bank to prepare for the functions conferred on it by the Bill—for example, the regulation of clearing houses. Paragraph 9 of Schedule 20 already makes provision for the FSA to disclose information to the PRA to assist in its preparations for undertaking its new functions. These amendments make similar provision in respect of the Bank. I beg to move.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“section (Payment to Treasury of penalties received by Financial Services Authority);”
Bank of England
Lord Sassoon Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Sassoon
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for commending the appointment. I am pleased that he recognises what a great catch Mark Carney is for the Bank and the country. To answer the noble Lord’s last question first, he ought to ask Mr Carney directly about his change of mind. However, as the noble Lord says, we are very fortunate that he did change his mind.
On the other questions, there was no question of bringing the announcement forward. My right honourable friend the Chancellor has always said that he sought to complete the appointment process by the end of the year. I do not believe that there was any statement to say that the announcement would be made in the Autumn Statement or at any time; people may have been speculating on that, but it was pure speculation.
The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asked about Mr Carney’s role as chair of the Financial Stability Board. At the moment, Mr Carney combines being chair of the Financial Stability Board with being a central bank governor, so he is quite used to doing the two things. The main thing is that, subject to his term on the FSB being renewed—as I would expect it to be—it is very good news for the United Kingdom that we will have a Governor of the Bank of England who is also taking this lead central role through the Financial Stability Board in the G20’s leadership of the future shape of financial regulation globally.
The first time I had the pleasure of working with Mr Carney was when, in earlier lives, he and I sat on the predecessor body, the Financial Stability Forum, so I know from my own direct experience going back over 10 years what a contribution he has made over a long period. He will, of course, be very well supported by three deputy governors in the Bank of England on the important and wide-ranging responsibilities that he will have. One of the things that the interview panel will have looked at is Mr Carney’s management experience, which is unquestioned in his present job. I believe he will be able to combine his responsibilities.
As for accountability, the key thing is not so much how other countries do it but whether we have got the right accountability for the Governor and the Bank in the new structure. We have spent many hours, quite rightly, in the heart of the Financial Services Bill, that we are considering again this afternoon, to get that right. Most importantly, partly as a consequence of the debates in your Lordships’ House, we have introduced the oversight committee of non-executive directors, which introduces an important new strand of accountability that has not been present hitherto in the Bank.
Lastly, the important thing is that for the first time a Governor of the Bank of England will go through—has volunteered to go through—a pre-commencement hearing with the Treasury Select Committee. That is a major step. I am not going to offer thoughts on what other cases it may be appropriate for, but in this case, it is breaking new ground and totally appropriate. However, the main thing here is that I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, for confirming, as I am sure the whole House will agree, that this is an extraordinarily good appointment of the best available person.
Lord Sharkey
I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and congratulate the Government on the appointment of Mr Carney. I send congratulations from these Benches, and perhaps commiserations too, to Mr Carney.
I note that two weeks ago, in a speech to the Canadian Club of Montreal, Mr Carney addressed the question of whether we have ended “too big to fail”. He concluded by saying that it is not yet clear that it has been ended. He said, quite explicitly, that each “global systemically important” financial institution,
“ must have mandatory recovery and resolution plans”
in place. I look forward to discussing Mr Carney’s views on this subject with the Minister when Report stage of the Financial Services Bill resumes later this afternoon.
Lord Sassoon
I am grateful to my noble friend and look forward to our further discussions on that important topic later this afternoon.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does this prove that “never” is a short time in politics?
Financial Services Bill
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Lord Sassoon
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Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Whitty. He has clearly hit on something that is very real in the development of consumer financial services today and is very beneficial to the expansion of competition in the provision of financial services. It seems peculiar that, in the drafting of this clause, the Government both include the condition, in subsection (4), and then say, a few lines later, “We may leave this condition out”. Surely there is already enough evidence of the importance of non-financial parent institutions developing financial services. Why, then, as my noble friend has so clearly described, do we not recognise it now?
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, new Part 12A of FiSMA, as inserted by Clause 26, extends and strengthens the regulatory framework by giving the regulators powers to act in relation to a parent entity, which is itself not regulated, but controls and exerts influence over a regulated entity. As we have heard, Amendments 90 and 91 seek to make significant changes to the scope of the powers over parent undertakings. We have not heard new arguments this afternoon, and regret that I probably will not advance any significantly new ones either—as is often the case. However, let me go through the argument as clearly as I can.
The Government are extending and strengthening the regulatory framework, so it is important that these new powers, which are untried and untested in the UK, have safeguards in place to ensure that they are used in a targeted and proportionate manner. I stress the new powers; they are not powers that previous Governments have sought to put in place, so we will put an important additional series of safeguards in place. However, their untried and untested nature is principally why the Government have proposed limiting the power to financial institutions of a kind prescribed by the Treasury in order to keep it within reasonable bounds.
As has already been identified today and on other occasions, if your main business is owning or managing authorised persons, you are caught, but if your main business is making or selling bread, then you are not. That is what the Government intend at this stage. We do not wish, at this stage, to give the financial services regulators powers of direction in relation to parent undertakings whose main business is not related to financial services. However, the Government are very much alive to the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, which is why we propose to take a power to remove the limitation to financial institutions. We accept that it may be appropriate to widen the scope of Part 12A powers to catch a wider range of parent undertakings but the Government remain unconvinced that now is the appropriate time for these new powers to apply to parent undertakings which are not themselves financial institutions. It is a developing area of financial services industry practice. We need to watch it closely and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is right to remind us of that. The provision future-proofs the powers and ensures that the Treasury has the flexibility to respond if circumstances change and firm structures evolve, such that parent undertakings are no longer captured within the scope of the power.
I know that in both Houses there has been interest in strengthening the application of the powers over unregulated parent undertakings. Government Amendments 91A to 91E seek therefore to improve the usability of the powers. Amendments 91A, 91B and 91C lower the trigger for use of the power against parent undertakings and make the power more usable. Amendments 91A and 91B clarify that the regulators can give a direction if it is considered desirable in order to advance the FCA’s operational objectives or any of the PRA’s objectives, or if the giving of the direction is desirable for the purpose of the effective consolidated supervision of the group. Amendment 91C is a related consequential amendment.
As a result of these amendments, the FCA and PRA, would no longer have to demonstrate that,
“the acts or omissions of the … parent … are having or may have a material adverse effect on the regulation … of one or more … authorised persons … or the effectiveness of consolidated supervision”.
After reviewing the powers in light of statements made in this House about the imperative need for the regulators to have effective powers over the parent undertakings of authorised persons and consulting with the authorities, the Government consider the previous threshold was set too high, which would have made the power difficult to use in practice. The high threshold may also have hindered and sometimes prevented the regulators properly supervising complex financial groups.
These amendments will mean that the powers can be used effectively by the regulators to address difficulties within the group as a whole. That will better fulfil the Government’s objective of ensuring that the regulators have the tools they need to conduct suitably robust supervision of unregulated holding companies.
Amendment 91E would make similar changes to the power of direction that the Bank of England has in relation to the parent undertaking of a recognised clearing house. Amendment 91D would remove the requirement that a direction must specify the period during which each requirement remains in force. This ensures that, in appropriate cases, the regulator can give a direction of an indefinite duration. It better aligns the new Part 12A powers with the provisions in new Sections 55L and 55M to be inserted into FiSMA, which provide for the imposition of requirements on authorised persons by the FCA and PRA of an indefinite duration.
While we think that directions in relation to unregulated parent undertakings should generally be of limited duration, we can conceive of cases—for example, in connection with structural reform of the kind envisaged by the Banking Reform Bill—where it would be appropriate for a direction to have an indefinite duration. Amendment 91D therefore provides the regulator with the flexibility to give a direction of an indefinite duration.
Viscount Trenchard
Will my noble friend explain more about government Amendment 91A? I do not understand why the reference to the FCA is different from that to the PRA. As regards the FCA, the amendment refers to,
“one or more of its operational objectives”.
I am not quite sure which of its objectives is non-operational. As regards the PRA, the amendment refers to, “any of its objectives”. I think that “any” means one only. Why is the drafting different between the two?
Lord Sassoon
I do not think that there is any material significance, other than that it tracks the wording of the different form of objectives which relate to the two bodies. It now escapes me because it is a few hours since we discussed the form of the objectives but I do not believe that there is any substantive point that relates to what we are doing here to change the power over holding companies. If it is all right with my noble friend, I will write to him to confirm why this links into the slight different wording used.
Lord Sassoon
“(2) The general condition is that the appropriate regulator considers that it is desirable to give the direction in order to advance—
(a) in the case of the FCA, one or more of its operational objectives;(b) in the case of the PRA, any of its objectives.”
Lord Sassoon
“(a) the general condition in subsection (2) were that the Bank considers that it is desirable to give the direction for the purpose of the effective regulation of one or more recognised clearing houses in the group of the qualifying parent undertaking,”
Lord Flight
My Lords, Amendment 93A to some extent overlaps with Amendments 92B and 92C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen. However, its thrust is slightly different. It has the support of ICE Clear Europe, which I believe has raised its concerns directly with the Minister. The starting point is that, given the systemic importance of clearing houses, it is self-evidently appropriate for the Bank to have powers to direct them in certain circumstances.
The powers granted to the Bank of England by Section 296A of FiSMA are extremely wide and broad—arguably too wide and broad—and could be counterproductive to achieving financial stability. My case is that Section 296A should be subject to specific, transparent and predictable trigger conditions. My amendment seeks to address the issue by setting out the trigger conditions and scope for action and intervention by the Bank of England under Section 296A. Other amendments have been tabled that address the issue in a different way. Amendments 92B and 92C in particular are there to achieve clarity and certainty, with less concern about the absolute extent of the Bank of England’s powers.
The key principle of the trigger conditions and scope that my amendment proposes is that Section 296A should be used only in the event that without such direction the clearing house would fail or would be likely to fail. Secondly, a particular concern is that the Bank of England could use the broad powers granted by Section 296A to direct a viable clearing house to take on business that could be severely damaging to its interests. Section 296A should not be used in this way. Directions should relate only to the existing business of a clearing house. Finally, Section 296A should be used only in consultation with relevant bodies, including the clearing house itself. The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, made the same point.
If the principles set out in Amendment 93A were adopted, they would allow the Government’s objective to be achieved. They would tailor the regime to circumstances in which the Bank of England would need to intervene in the market to maintain financial stability, and they would reflect the appropriate interests of the clearing houses.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the Government note the concerns expressed about the additional powers of direction to be conferred on the Bank of England. Some of these concerns are reflected in Amendments 92B and 92C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen of Pimlico. These amendments seek to impose more stringent conditions on the Bank of England’s ability to exercise the Section 296A power. I will say at the outset that in response, the Government are minded to bring forward amendments at Third Reading to address some of the concerns raised by the industry.
Before bringing forward amendments at Third Reading, I will reflect further on the debate we have had today. However, I am happy to confirm that the Government are considering amendments to raise the threshold of the trigger for the power of direction to a “necessary” rather than a “desirable” test; to more clearly set out how the power is to be used, including specifying procedures with which the Bank should comply prior to issuing a direction, whether on a routine or an expedited basis; and, finally, to set out in statute the assurance that I have already given the House that the additional power of direction cannot be used to compel a clearing house to accept the business of a competitor.
I will now address the amendments in this group. Amendment 92A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Sharkey, seeks to introduce a requirement for clearing houses to draw up and maintain recovery plans. The appropriate place for a requirement for clearing houses to prepare recovery plans would be in Part III of the recognition requirement regulations made under Section 286 of FiSMA, not in primary legislation.
The Government have already outlined their intention to build on the positive developments around loss allocation arrangements that are being introduced by some clearing houses of their own volition, and will also consult on proposals to make changes to the recognition requirement regulations, which are the operating conditions under which clearing houses are licensed to operate in the UK. The changes would have the effect of requiring all UK clearing houses to have in place loss allocation rules. As part of the consultation exercise, the Government will also seek views on proposals to change the recognition requirement regulations to make mandatory the preparation and maintenance of recovery plans by clearing houses. We are on the case and certainly are not waiting for EU legislation. However, we believe that the recognition requirement regulations are the appropriate place for these conditions, and we will take action to that end.
Amendment 93A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Flight, would impose further preconditions on the exercise of the power, would limit the scope of any direction given under the power and would apply various provisions of the special resolution regime provided for in Part 1 of the Banking Act 2009 to any direction given. It would not be appropriate for the Bank of England to wait until the financial position of a clearing house had deteriorated to the extent that it posed a serious threat to financial stability or failed to meet its recognition requirements before exercising the additional power of direction. The additional power of direction is a supervisory power, not a resolution power. It will allow the Bank of England to manage the considerable risks that may be posed by the actions of a clearing house which do not constitute a breach of its recognition requirements or its obligations under FiSMA 2000. If Amendment 93A were agreed, the Bank of England might be unable to give a direction that would safeguard the solvency of a clearing house, forcing the use of resolution powers as a last resort in order to minimise the impact of the failure of the clearing house on wider financial stability.
It would also be inappropriate to limit the scope of any direction that the Bank of England might give in the way suggested by Amendment 93A. The additional power of direction is intentionally wide-ranging. The Government feel that this is essential in order to build in sufficient flexibility to enable the Bank to manage and respond to new and unusual risks that may require regulatory action that goes beyond the purposes specified in Amendment 93A. The Government also believe that requiring a court order to be obtained before any direction could be given by the Bank could undermine successful regulatory intervention in instances where there was a need to act with alacrity in the event of a crisis. The court may not necessarily be well placed to make judgments on whether action is necessary having regard to the relevant public interest criteria.
Finally, it would not be feasible to apply the provisions of the special resolution regime provided for in Part 1 of the Banking Act 2009 to this power of direction. The additional supervisory power of direction provided for by Section 296A is separate and distinct from the stabilisation powers, exercisable in respect of UK clearing houses, provided for by Amendment 193G. In contrast to the power of direction, which is a supervisory tool, the stabilisation powers are resolution tools that would be deployed to minimise the impact of the failure of a clearing house on wider financial stability. Given that alternative, specific resolution powers exist, it would be unreasonable for the Bank of England to use the power of direction to effect “partial property transfers”. Such an action would be contrary to the constraints under which the Bank operates as a public authority.
With those explanations and assurances about what we intend to come forward with at Third Reading, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sharkey
My Lords, I seem to have put my amendment in the wrong place, but I think I heard the Minister say that recovery plans would be made mandatory in any case but by other means. Given the risks involved, it would be nice to have some sense of when that may actually happen, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(a) after the definition of “applicant” insert—““central counterparty clearing services” has the same meaning as in section 155 of the Companies Act 1989 (see subsection (3A) of that section);”, and
(b) ”
Lord Sassoon
“(2) If the Treasury consider that it is in the public interest to do so, the Treasury may by order—
(a) amend section 391 of FSMA 2000 by substituting for subsections (1) to (1ZB) the following—“(1) Neither the regulator giving a warning notice nor a person to whom it is given or copied may publish the notice or any details concerning it.”, and(b) repeal section 395(1)(d) and (2)(b) and (c) of that Act.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, we return now to the issue of warning notices and procedures for decision-making within our regulators. We have had lengthy debates on these issues in Committee, and rightly so as they concern important matters relating to fairness and natural justice. I shall return to Amendments 97A and 97ZZA when my noble friend Lord Flight and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, have spoken. For now, I shall focus on the group of government amendments concerning warning notices.
The new power for the regulators to disclose the fact that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued constitutes a real departure from the regulatory regime up to this point and a bold move towards more transparent, effective and open regulation. The power has been welcomed by many, including of course by the noble Baroness on behalf of the Opposition. However, concerns have been raised by members from all sides of the House. These concerns fall broadly into two categories: first, that the power will be used irresponsibly; and secondly, that there should be a greater degree of independence involved in reaching a decision to disclose the fact that a warning notice has been issued. The Government have tabled amendments that I hope will address both these issues.
Amendment 94A provides for a power for the Treasury to repeal the warning notices power,
“If the Treasury consider that it is in the public interest to do so”.
As I noted in Committee, this provision is intended as a useful backstop against irresponsible use of the power. The Treasury would expect to use its power to repeal if it felt that the way in which the power was being used did not serve the wider public interests. I hope that noble Lords are reassured that this will pose a substantial and clear check on the power being used in a way that is damaging or irresponsible.
In Committee on 15 October, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, quite rightly noted that the power to repeal is a substantial one and that such a decision should involve parliamentary scrutiny. I fully agree with her and that is why Amendment 117A makes the use of this power subject to affirmative procedure. I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured by that.
Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB are intended to address some of the concerns expressed by a number of Members of this House, including my noble friends Lord Flight, Lord Deben and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. This is about the process by which a decision is taken to disclose the fact that a warning notice has been issued.
The concern expressed was that there was a lack of independence in the decision to disclose, with the effect that the regulator would be judge, jury and executioner when it came to a decision to disclose that a warning notice had been issued. Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB bring the decision to disclose that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued into the list of matters subject to the procedures set out in Section 395 of FiSMA. The amendments set out the criteria with which the process for deciding to disclose a warning notice must comply, noting that the decision must be taken either by a person other than the person by whom the decision to disclose was first proposed, or by two or more persons not including the person by whom the decision to disclose was first proposed. This is intended to deliver a degree of independence in the decision-making process and mirrors the conditions set out in relation to the decision to issue a warning notice or decision notice. I hope that this addresses some of the concerns expressed in our debates in Committee on the issue.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these amendments and I hope I am right in understanding that the backstop power is for the whole thing and not for individual cases. I see that the Minister is nodding in agreement that I have the interpretation right. I thank him for that now being an affirmative order if it was to be changed. I am confident that the public interest will not bring it back to this House, so I am quite relaxed about it.
The other amendments aside from the first one relating to the backstop power are about ensuring some independence on the issue of warning notices, or in the case of Amendment 97ZA in the name of my noble friend Lord Eatwell and myself, on the whole disciplinary process. This amendment would ensure that a properly constituted and independent determinations panel would be responsible for dealing with all cases presented by the FCA or indeed by the PRA. As I explained in Committee, that is in effect the procedure introduced for the Pensions Regulator in 2004. It is seen as robust and independent, and it has indeed turned down some of the cases that have been taken to it. I would have to say, of course, since I was a member of it, that it was effective. It has been a useful way of ensuring that there is confidence that when cases are brought by staff, they are well scrutinised.
As the Minister has said, the government amendments in this group other than the first one on the backstop go some way to answering our concerns. However, I do not think that they go quite far enough, although I guess that we should be grateful for some movement. They introduce a degree of independence to the consideration of a case brought by FCA or PRA staff, but they fail to ensure the continuance of the RDC to give its statutory backing. We hear what the Minister says about the statement of the current FSA on what the future FCA will voluntarily choose to do, but I hope that the Government do not at some point in the future rue the day that they failed to protect the RDC’s existence and independence. For the moment, however, perhaps the noble Lord could confirm the Government’s commitment, not just that of the FCA, to the continuance of the RDC.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think that I can probably be briefer than I had intended in responding to these amendments. I will confirm again that the backstop power is, as my noble friend has characterised it even though it may not be what he would like to see, a “gone for ever” backstop. However, I hope it will give comfort that we will keep under review the way this important new power is operated.
On Amendment 97A, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Flight for saying in terms that he is reassured by the effect of Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB, to which I spoke at some length, so I will not go over that ground again. The issue about the difference between the FCA and the PRA here is a simple one. We see the FCA as being the regulator that would issue these types of warning notice and to which the new power applies, and we do not actually see the PRA doing it. That is why we have constructed things as they are and we can rely on the approach of the RDC continuing as we have discussed. But if the PRA were to get into the warning notices business, which we do not anticipate, there are provisions in the Bill that would cause it to look at how it would construct an independent process that might take it down an RDC-type route.
I am not sure whether the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, was expecting me to say more about Amendment 97ZZA because we have agreed that we went over this ground on 15 October. I am grateful to her for what she said about the government amendments, so unless she would like me to go on at some length, I think that we have probably done it justice. However, I am grateful for this short debate.
Lord Sassoon
“(4) For subsection (2) substitute—
“(2) A contravention within subsection (1) or (1A)—
(a) does not, except as provided by section 23(1A), make a person guilty of an offence,(b) does not, except as provided by section 26A, make any transaction void or unenforceable, and(c) does not, except as provided by subsection (3), give rise to any right of action for breach of statutory duty.””
Lord Sassoon
“30A In section 400 (offences by a body corporate etc) after subsection (6) insert—
“(6A) References in this section to an offence under this Act include a reference to an offence under Part 6A of the Financial Services Act 2012 (offences relating to financial services).””
Lord Sassoon
“( ) In subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a), for “or 397” substitute “or under Part 6A of the Financial Services Act 2012”, and(b) after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) an authorised person may have contravened section 20 in relation to a credit-related regulated activity;”.”
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“1A In Part 22 (auditors and actuaries), before section 340 (and the italic heading immediately before it) insert—
“General duties of PRA339A General duties of PRA in relation to auditors
(1) The arrangements maintained by the PRA under section 2K (supervision of PRA-authorised persons) must include arrangements for—
(a) the sharing with auditors of PRA-authorised persons of information that the PRA is not prevented from disclosing, and(b) the exchange of opinions with auditors of PRA-authorised persons.(2) The PRA must issue and maintain a code of practice describing how it will comply with subsection (1).
(3) The PRA may at any time alter or replace a code issued under this section.
(4) If a code is altered or replaced, the PRA must issue the altered or replacement code.
(5) When the PRA issues a code under this section the PRA must—
(a) give a copy of the code to the Treasury, and(b) publish the code in such manner as the PRA thinks fit.(6) The Treasury must lay before Parliament a copy of the code.
(7) “Auditor” means an auditor appointed under or as a result of a statutory provision.””
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the government amendments in this group place new duties on the PRA to engage with auditors of PRA-authorised persons.
We had a useful debate in Committee on the role of auditors in the financial crisis. In particular, I welcomed the insightful and constructive comments made by my noble friends Lady Wheatcroft and Lord Lawson of Blaby. I committed to consider their points further and to bring back an amendment designed to address their concerns. Before I come to the detail of the amendments, I will set out briefly the work that is being done across the board to strengthen audit—and not just of banks.
First, there is the work of the Financial Reporting Council. On 28 September the FRC amended its code to require boards to state that their annual reports and accounts as a whole are fair, balanced and understandable. It also requires audit committee reports that set out the key judgments taken, and requires auditors to ensure appropriate communication between the audit committee and the board, reporting if they have evidence that the board’s overall assessment is inappropriate.
The FRC will be consulting on implementing the Sharman report recommendations, which, among other things, would require boards to report the risk and uncertainties that would affect the entity as a going concern, and would require auditors to comment if the disclosure was inconsistent with their understanding.
As noble Lords may already be aware, BIS has recently published a draft of new narrative reporting regulations that would replace the existing business review with a concise, stand-alone report focused on strategy and the organisation’s business model. This will mean that shareholders can easily find out about a company’s strategy, the risks it faces, how it is performing and the direction in which it is heading. The auditors would have to opine on the consistency of that report with the accounts.
These are all positive developments, directly addressing concerns about ensuring that audited accounts give a more complete view of the position of the firm, and what we are proposing needs to be seen against that background. As has been pointed out, there are particular issues with financial services firms. For PRA-authorised persons, questions of risk are often complex, and coming to judgments about the proper valuation of financial assets is a specialised task. In the Government’s view, the right way into this is to ensure that there is a flow of information between the auditor and the regulator to ensure that each can be informed by the judgments of the other. One example, noted in the recent PRA approach document, is that the PRA,
“will share relevant information, for example where it views a firm’s valuations of less liquid assets or its approach to provisioning to be significantly out of line with peers”.
Amendment 105A inserts a new Section 339A into FiSMA. The new section will require the PRA, as part of the arrangements it must maintain under Section 2K for supervising PRA-authorised persons, to have arrangements for sharing information and opinions,
“with auditors of PRA-authorised persons”.
The PRA must make a code of practice setting out how it will comply with this duty; it must publish the code and give a copy of the code to the Treasury, which must lay the code before Parliament. To ensure that this is a reciprocal arrangement, Amendment 105B will require the PRA to make,
“rules imposing duties on auditors of PRA-authorised persons”
in relation to co-operation with the PRA in its supervision of those persons.
The government amendments would mean that there will be an expectation, set out in law, that the PRA’s judgments about firms will be shared with the auditors. Coupled with the reforms that are being put in place by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the FRC, the Government believe that this is a useful step forward.
I stress to my noble friend that while the FSA should and could have been doing these things, the PRA approach document goes further in setting out a new level of intent, and enshrining what could and should have been best practice into the code of practice to be published and laid before Parliament puts a very helpful spotlight on this issue, which I am very grateful to her for drawing to the attention of the House. This now means that those responsible, particularly on the PRA side, cannot shirk their duty. I beg to move.
Baroness Noakes
My Lords, unfortunately I was not able to be present when my noble friend’s amendment was debated in Committee, but I read Hansard and noted that my noble friend had undertaken to take the issue away and bring an amendment back. I was surprised when I looked at the amendment and saw what it was trying to deliver. It seems to me, as my noble friend has just pointed out, that there are already provisions in FiSMA, which covers the relationship between auditors and financial institutions. In addition, the Minister said that these are things that could and should have been done—but they are being done.
I have a copy of the code of practice for the relationship between the external auditor and the supervisor. This was refreshed after the financial crisis and is dated May 2011. It sets out a number of principles. Principle one states:
“Supervisors and auditors shall seek an open, cooperative and constructive relationship”.
Principle two is that they should “engage in regular dialogue”. Principle three states:
“Supervisors and auditors shall share all information relevant to carrying out their respective statutory duties and in a timely fashion”.
That code is already in existence and governing the dialogue between the FSA and auditors. Under the current legislative framework there is no reason for this not to continue when the PRA takes over its functions. I am struggling to see what it is that adds any substance to the current arrangements. The Government have brought forward an amendment, which is—and I hate to use this term—window dressing.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I assure you that it is not window dressing. I am not sure how much I can add for the benefit of my noble friend other than what I have said already. It is important to think about these amendments in the context of what the FRC and BIS are doing, and also to recognise that hardwiring the code of conduct into legislation in the way that I have described does considerably more than window dressing. Over time, we will be able to prove the scepticism of my noble friends to have been misplaced. I agree that this is a matter that will not go away, and we should and will, as Treasury and Government, keep these matters high on our list of things to be watched.
Lord Sassoon
“(4) For subsection (3) substitute—
“(3A) The PRA—
(a) must make rules imposing on auditors of PRA-authorised persons such duties as may be specified in relation to co-operation with the PRA in connection with the supervision by the PRA of PRA-authorised persons, and(b) may make rules—(i) imposing such other duties on auditors of PRA-authorised persons as may be specified, and(ii) imposing such duties on actuaries acting for PRA-authorised persons as may be specified.(3B) The FCA may make rules imposing on auditors of, or actuaries acting for, authorised persons other than PRA-authorised persons such duties as may be specified.””