Devolved Administrations: Financial Flexibility

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with the devolved administrations concerning the future working of year-end financial flexibility.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced on 18 July that the Treasury has agreed with the devolved Administrations that a modified version of the budget exchange system will apply to their underspends during the spending review period. The devolved Administrations will be able to carry forward DEL underspends up to a maximum of 0.6 per cent of resource DEL and 1.5 per cent of capital DEL from one year to the next.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is much more prudent for the devolved Administrations to carry forward, as a capital sum, any money that is unspent at year end rather than to rush to spend it? Given that the Assembly Ministers, as he said, have agreed with the Treasury a formula for devolved Administrations to carry forward underspends within these defined limits, why was the Treasury insisting on denying to Wales, and to the National Assembly, some £400 million of accrued underspends in Wales, money which Parliament had voted for use in Wales and which had been accumulated on a formula previously agreed with the Treasury? Will the Minister now discuss with his Treasury colleagues the possibility of releasing that sum over the next two years to augment the National Assembly’s much depleted capital resources?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, sadly, the previous Government left us with a pot of money of some £20 billion which had been unspent by departments, which, if now spent, would simply increase our deficit; it would increase the stock of debt by £20 billion. It was necessary for the Government, as part of our deficit reduction strategy, to cancel that EYF, but the stock of cancelled underspends in the devolved Administrations was 8.4 per cent of the total, compared with 15 per cent of expenditure, which the devolved Administrations represent, so what they were prevented from spending was rather less proportionately than applied to the United Kingdom as a whole.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the decision not to allow the EYF for Wales was something which took many people there by surprise. Can the Minister tell us whether it took the Government of Wales by surprise or were there discussions with the Government prior to the decision by the Treasury at the time of the Budget?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as I have already explained, the Government inherited an extremely difficult deficit position. We took decisions that affected the whole of the United Kingdom and this one was consequential on decisions that needed to be taken to bring the deficit position under some sort of control so that departments were not completely without controls on their expenditure. After that, there were detailed discussions led by my right honourable friend the Chief Secretary, which led to the proposals which are the subject of this Question.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, the £400 million, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred, could certainly help to sustain public services in Wales and boost the economy. Parliament has voted that money for the Welsh Assembly. Does the Minister not think that it is arrogance on the part of the Government to ignore the will of Parliament?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, a lot of factors have to be taken into account in setting expenditure for the devolved Administrations, not least our favourite Barnett formula, but the fact remains that expenditure on a head-count basis in Wales will, in the present period, be some 12 per cent higher than the per head expenditure in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, was the Welsh Assembly consulted before this decision was made?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the United Kingdom Parliament—this House and another place—was not consulted before an awful lot of spending decisions were taken. That is the way that Governments make spending decisions.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, the Minister has, I think, criticised the Barnett formula. What plans does he have to bring in a different formula regarding Wales and Scotland?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, would I ever be so bold as to criticise the Barnett formula? The Barnett formula has been widely questioned, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, himself. However, the Government’s priority has to be stabilising the public finances. If, in due course, the formula is to be superseded, the challenge is that there is no consensus on how to measure needs, which would be required to bring in some needs-based formula.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, on the contrary, I would suggest to the noble Lord that there is plenty of research on how to bring in a needs-assessed formula, given that both devolved Administrations distribute their money down to local authorities on precisely that basis. Would the noble Lord therefore accept that Wales is indeed underfunded, that the Barnett formula effectively misspends and overspends by £4 billion and that a rectification of that would surely help the Minister to address the deficit?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, what I said was that there was no consensus. Of course there is plenty of research but there is no consensus, and that is what is needed in this area.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, the Minister brings considerable private sector expertise to his role, including at Union Bank of Switzerland. Can the noble Lord tell the House whether in his private sector experience he has ever come across a situation where companies say that if you do not spend the money, it will be taken away from you? What prudence does that encourage?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I believe that it was under the previous Government in 2006—the noble Lord will remember this better than me—that the health service overspent its budget and reserve by £182 million, and the previous Government stopped the EYF system. So I really do not think that we need lectures about me and my experience; it was the noble Lord’s Government who stopped it.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Exemption) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2011

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Sassoon]

That the draft order laid before the House on 5 September be approved.

Relevant documents: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 October.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I am afraid that this may take a little longer than expected, the order having been considered previously in Grand Committee. Unfortunately, at the time of the Grand Committee consideration, noble Lords did not have available to them the results of the consultation on the order and consequently were not then able to give the order the scrutiny it deserved.

I would be grateful if the Minister could answer a couple of points raised in the consultation that the Government have not addressed. First, given the peculiar importance of credit unions in Northern Ireland, are the Government intending to address the issue raised in the consultation of whether an office of the FSA or a successor organisation should be established in Northern Ireland? This is clearly a sensitive issue in the Province, and it ill behoves the Government simply to ignore it, as they do in this document.

Secondly, I am unclear about the Government’s position on question 2(a) of the consultation on whether the Northern Ireland Assembly would retain legislative control of credit unions in Northern Ireland. As the Government acknowledge, considerable concern was expressed about the loss of Northern Ireland influence over an aspect of financial life that is very important in the Province but less so in the rest of the UK. Could the Minister please clarify the Government’s position? Again, in the consultation document the question was simply ignored. As a corollary to this last point, what are the Government doing to ensure that no adverse effects are felt in Northern Ireland from the legislation on credit unions passed in this House on Thursday, 20 October? That legislation allowed businesses to assume up to 10 per cent of the share of the capital of a credit union and eliminated the role of the common bond as the basis of a credit union.

How will the Government ensure that credit unions in Northern Ireland do not, in some cases, become dominated by local business members, with the potentially unfortunate impact on investment decisions, particularly when the credit union considers investment in the local community? How do the Government intend to monitor the impact of the loss of the common bond in Northern Ireland credit unions, when it is evident that the common bond has played an important role in the unique character of the credit union movement in the Province?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, for the benefit of noble Lords who did not take part in the discussion in Grand Committee on 17 October, it is perhaps worth explaining that this statutory instrument transfers responsibility for regulation of Northern Ireland credit unions to the Financial Services Authority. It implements a policy decision of the previous Government announced in March 2010—which has the support of all three main parties—the outline of which is the subject of this statutory instrument. There will be further instruments dealing with the detail of the transfer and a number of the consequentials arising from that.

It is unfortunate that the consultation issued by the previous Government in March 2010, having said that the decision had been taken that regulation would transfer to the Financial Services Authority, slipped into a consultation about how this is best achieved and what other associated action should take place. Those matters will be the subject of further statutory instruments in due course and it is unfortunate that there was one somewhat confusing question that could have been taken as touching on the statutory instrument before us today. I regret that. Had I known that that question was there, we could have had the consultation responses out earlier, even though it was not intended that the previous Government’s consultation should have anything to do with the business before us today.

On the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, the question of the FSA and the allocation of its resources to offices is a matter for it. The responses on this point were linked to concerns about what the regulatory regime was going to entail and the FSA has worked hard to address those concerns by carrying out visits to Northern Ireland and answering questions from the credit unions.

As to the common bond and possible domination of local businesses, as we discussed in Grand Committee, the credit unions do not feel that this issue will be a threat. Of course, along with seeing how the credit unions sector generally across the United Kingdom develops—it is prospering and the Government wish to see it do so—it is one of the many factors that the Government will continue to have in view. The matter does not touch directly on this instrument, but it is relevant to the whole of the credit unions sector across the United Kingdom.

The other points will be the subject of ongoing work by the FSA following another consultation that the FSA and the Treasury had issued, which closed last week and which will be the subject of further statutory instruments in due course.

[Lord Eatwell]

And what about legislative control?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

This instrument deals with the basic decision, announced jointly by the noble Lord’s Government and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland, that regulation, which is the subject of this instrument, should pass from the DETI to the FSA. That is what this does. It does not relate to any matters other than that. The decision had already been taken in advance of the consultation the noble Lord is questioning.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, the Minister used the word “discussion” to describe Grand Committee on 17 October. That is rather stretching the definition of that word. It was a tetchy performance by the Minister, who was clearly deeply embarrassed that a consultation which had been initiated in March 2010 and completed several months ago—indeed, before the summer break—was actually published only on the morning of Grand Committee, and no efforts were made at all to ensure that those noble Lords who take an interest in Treasury Affairs were aware of the existence of this document before we discussed the order.

In those circumstances, the Minister assured the Grand Committee that when we looked at the consultation we would find that it was supportive. The Minister then said there was considerable risk that if we did not approve the instrument, these changes, which he rightly points out have widespread agreement across all political parties, could be delayed by as much as six months. I am seeking to establish through a freedom of information inquiry whether the FSA agrees with the statement. We approved this order in Grand Committee because of the urging of the Minister. He pointed out that if we did not do so, we would be delaying a number of other orders which would be forthcoming fairly soon. Those orders come under a negative resolution procedure. In view of the lamentable performance by the Treasury in not publishing the consultation response until the morning of the Grand Committee, will the Minister honour the House by ensuring that those subsequent changes go through an affirmative procedure, notwithstanding they could, at the Minister’s discretion, go through a negative procedure? That is the least the Minister can do to address correctly a failure to treat the House with respect by holding back the publication of this report until the morning of discussion.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I really do not accept the construction of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, over this. If the previous Government had not published a rather confused consultation in March 2010, which slipped in a question that they said in the introduction to that consultation was already decided policy, none of this confusion and this opportunity to create some great mountain out of a procedural molehill would have arisen. We had a vigorous debate. We looked at all the key matters in Grand Committee in the proper way—all the matters I expected to be raised were properly covered in the discussion. A sequence of statutory instruments is due to come forward in the coming month. We needed this one out of the way. There is another consultation, as I have already explained, which closed last week that will inform the other statutory instruments. They will come forward under the normal procedure that is appropriate to them. An enormous amount is being made of next to nothing. If I had been aware of the confusion that had been laid in the previous Government’s consultation on this, of course I would have ensured that the responses were out. I regret they were not. Nothing was held back.

Motion agreed.

Euro

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are seeking to safeguard the United Kingdom’s interests in discussions with European Union partners on the future of the euro.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, a stable euro area is in the UK’s interests and the Government are actively engaged in seeking to achieve this. While acknowledging the need for greater euro area fiscal integration, the Government are working to ensure that the UK is not part of that integration and that our influence on and interests in the single market, competition policy and financial services are safeguarded. We have ensured that the UK will not participate in the European stability mechanism.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, which would be more dangerous for Britain—financial and fiscal integration of the eurozone, with Britain marginalised in a minority bloc and outgunned in EU decision-taking; or disintegration of the eurozone, with its attendant chaos; or, most likely, a combination of the two? With eurozone countries objecting to Britain’s interference, and with both the coalition and the Conservative Party riven by internal disagreement, how can the Prime Minister hope to exercise useful influence or, indeed, to save his Government from being destroyed by Europe?

[Lord Sassoon]

I really do think that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, puts up completely false choices and alternatives here. The fact is that significant progress has been made overnight to stabilise the eurozone. A lot more work needs to be done to fill in the detail but that is a first major step. I see that the noble Lord is nodding his head. That is point number one. Secondly, the idea that the UK is going to be marginalised in the “euro-outs” is simply not true. On Sunday, the Prime Minister established the key principle that we would be there, as we were yesterday, with a voice at the table on all matters involving all 27 EU member states. The idea behind the Question is that somehow it is just the UK versus the rest. We must be reminded that the other euro-outs include Poland, Sweden, Hungary, the Czech Republic and four others. We will play a critical part in driving forward the single market, and that is very important to the euro area.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it is a fundamental fact that monetary union in the eurozone is not viable short of a fiscal union, and that a fiscal union cannot come into being without full political union, which fortunately is as improbable as it is undesirable?

[Lord Sassoon]

My noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby cuts to the chase with singular directness. I think that this is an onion with many layers to it and we need to go stage by stage. Having established the immediate priority of the stabilisation of the eurozone, of course the strengthening of the fiscal arrangements within the eurozone is the second priority. The Government signed up to that during the summer and the implementation of that needs to be taken forward. It is in the UK’s interest that that happens. It may lead, as the overnight statement said, to treaty changes and, as a consequence of that, the UK Government will seek to ensure that they take advantage of any opportunity to advance the UK’s interest. I think we need to regard this as a step-by-step process.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, will the noble Lord pass on our best wishes to the Prime Minister for many more enjoyable dinners with the Swedes and Poles, having enjoyed one yesterday evening? Does the Minister agree that in the new two-tier Europe, which this Government are bringing on, it is essential to defend Britain’s vital national interest in the single market and financial regulation by keeping Britain as close as possible to the eurozone? In the light of that, will they be reconsidering their decision not to join the euro-plus pact, which was offered? Does he not also agree that it is totally contradictory and counterproductive to talk at the same time about repatriation of powers for which, if the coalition can agree on what they mean, our partners are bound to demand a higher a price?

[Lord Liddle]

How do the Government propose to resolve this looming conflict between defence of the national interest and their own party unity?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it really is not helpful for the party opposite to try to paint this completely false picture of a two-speed Europe. As I have already explained, the euro-out countries are integral to the single market—the eurozone understands that—and we will be part of the centrality of what needs to be done to drive forward structural reform of the single market, and so on. The other thing that is completely wrong is to paint Europe now as two-speed. There is a variable geometry EU, as we have it. Remember that other important areas such as justice and home affairs, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, recognises, also run in different ways. Therefore the idea that there will be some fundamentally changed, two-speed Europe is again ridiculously simplistic.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is it not obvious that last night’s measures are merely yet more sticking plaster on a wound that will therefore continue to poison the world economy? Is not the only answer to abandon the whole ill-fated project of European integration, get rid of the euro and go back to the democracies of Europe freely trading together and with the rest of the world in their own currencies?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, that is not the situation. Forty per cent of our trade goes to the eurozone, 50 per cent goes to the EU, and we have to work to preserve the structure.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, would the Minister be so good as to give the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, a reply to the question about the euro-plus pact? It may be that the name of this pact is unfortunate, but it is supported by a number of countries which are not in the eurozone, and its objectives relate very closely to our most important objective, which is to further the single market. Would he not agree that the priority now is not drawing up long wish lists for repatriation but working out how we are going to keep our position and keep the integrity of the single market?

[Lord Sassoon]

As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, says, there are many things up for consideration and we need to consider the future architecture in the round and decide where it is in the best interests of the UK to move forward on all those issues. It would be too early to pick out one item this morning.

Economy: Inflation and Unemployment

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name—rather than the previous Question—on the Order Paper.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government’s economic policy objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth. Budget 2011 reaffirmed the independent Monetary Policy Committee’s remit to target 2 per cent inflation, as defined by the 12-month increase in the consumer prices index. The Government have introduced a range of measures to reduce unemployment and support the unemployed into work, including get Britain working, the work programme and modernisation of Jobcentre Plus.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I hope that the modest attempts that the Treasury is making to help the unemployment situation are successful. However, does not the Minister accept, if he wants to be honest with the House, the plain fact that the deficit reduction plan overshadows all those minor measures, and unemployment continues to rise? I do not expect him to be able to announce what the Chancellor is going to do in the near future. However, given the change of circumstances around the economy, will he at least tell us that the Chancellor is considering, without changing the plan, at the very least putting off some of those measures to later years and bringing forward some of the infrastructure and capital expenditure plans, which would help to reduce the terrible unemployment that is blighting so much of the country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the first clear objective of the Government is to stick to the fiscal reduction plan that we have set to make sure that the UK’s interest rates remain low, so that we are not in the position in which countries like Italy find themselves today. It is absolutely fundamental to growth that we keep interest rates low and stick to our fiscal discipline. Secondly, we must have monetary activism and credit easing, a combination of measures that the Bank of England has taken by extending the asset purchase scheme by £75 billion. The Chancellor has said that we will come forward with further credit easing measures in the autumn Statement. The third issue, which will further be addressed in the November Statement, is, critically, to press on with supply-side reforms that will underpin medium-term balanced growth. Those are the three clear strands of the Government’s policy to which we will stick.

[Lord Ryder of Wensum]

My Lords, if my noble friend is in favour of keeping an inflation target, why does the Governor of the Bank of England fail to match it year after year? If my noble friend is in favour of keeping that target—which there is no purpose in having if it is never matched—what are the advantages of inflation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the critical point is that, as my noble friend knows, the target for the Bank of England is a medium-term target. The Bank of England is wholly transparent about the situation in its quarterly inflation reports. In the latest reports, it has set out what the pressures have been on inflation in recent quarters and where they will be in the immediate future. Some of those pressures naturally come out of the figures over the next six months. It is quite right that the Governor and the MPC have and are committed to that target. It is important to realise that it is a medium-term target, and their judgment is that it is more likely that inflation will undershoot rather than exceed 2 per cent in the medium term. Indeed, that judgment is supported by the great majority of independent forecasts that I have seen.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, the Question related to RPI and unemployment. I remind the Minister that RPI is at its highest level since June 1991 and unemployment is at its highest level since October 1994. The Governor of the Bank of England clearly feels that he has reached the end of the line in terms of monetary policy and inflation risk. What are the Government going to do to bring forward a credible, coherent and sustainable strategy for economic growth?

[Lord Sassoon]

First of all, as the noble Lord, Lord Myners, knows, the Governor of the Bank of England has set out very clearly his and the MPC’s analysis of the inflation situation and of their reasons for increasing by £75 billion the asset purchase scheme, so I am not going to answer for them. On unemployment, I would point out that in the second quarter of 2011 the internationally comparable employment rate for the UK was 69.4 per cent. That was the fourth highest employment rate in the G7, behind Canada, Germany and Japan and ahead of, among others, the US. We also had the seventh highest employment rate in the European Union in the second quarter. Of course we would wish to see growth increased, but we have to have sustainable growth. We should not put ourselves in the position of thinking that, on unemployment, we are out of line with our peer group. We are coming out of the deepest recession that we have known for many decades—and who caused that?

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I must tell the Minister that I welcome the fact that the Government are keen to see as many apprenticeships as possible. In that case, will he urge the authorities of this House and the other place to take on more apprentices and trainees? We have a fine building and many highly skilled people, and it would be good if we showed a good example by employing more apprentices and trainees in this very building.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am sure that the authorities of both Houses have heard what the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, has said. Of course, skills will be part of the supply-side reforms that we continue to work on going forward.

[Lord Eatwell]

Does the Minister agree that the very high rate of inflation in this country is one of the key factors leading to a significant reduction in the living standards of ordinary households and is therefore contributing to lower expenditure and lower employment? Will he explain to the House why, at over 5 per cent, the inflation rate in this country is almost double that of all other European countries and that of the United States?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, seeks to get me to commentate on matters that we have given to the independent Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England. It was the party opposite in government who took the right step of giving the Bank of England independence. Therefore, as I have already explained twice in my answers today, it is for the Bank to explain, as it does very transparently, the track of inflation. The Government are ensuring that we relieve wherever we can the pressures on household bills because I accept that inflation puts a high burden on our households. That is why we cut fuel duty by 1p per litre in the Budget and why we announced in recent weeks a further £805 million to enable council tax to be frozen for a further year. The Government are concerned to make sure that our hard-pressed households are relieved of pressures. That is why we need to keep interest rates low, which have contributed to £10 billion of lower mortgage payments than there would otherwise have been.

Eurozone Crisis

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Statement is as follows.

“Mr Speaker, I wanted to update the House as early as possible on developments in the eurozone and, in the absence of the Prime Minister as he travels to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, report on the good progress made at yesterday’s European Council.

The crisis in the eurozone has caused instability in financial markets, has greatly undermined confidence around the world and is having a chilling effect on economic growth in many countries, including our own. It is in our overwhelming national interest that a coherent, comprehensive and lasting solution to the eurozone’s problems is found, for the decisive resolution of this crisis would provide the single biggest boost to the British economy this autumn, while the break-up of the euro would be the single greatest threat to our prosperity.

Our view about how to solve the eurozone’s immediate problems has been clear, consistent and forcibly expressed. The Prime Minister and I have set it out to the House on many occasions: reinforcement, recapitalisation and resolution. First, eurozone member states need to reinforce their bailout fund to create a firewall. Secondly, weak European banks need to be recapitalised. Thirdly, the unsustainable position of Greece’s debts needs to be resolved. But if the solution is to last, as I said many months ago, the members of the euro also need to address the logic of monetary union by pursuing greater fiscal integration within the eurozone, while at the same time we protect Britain’s interests.

We have to improve competitiveness—competitiveness in the peripheral economies of the eurozone as measured against the core economies like Germany, and competitiveness across the whole European continent versus the rest of the world. This is the solution of the crisis we have been advocating for months and the solution once again advocated by the Prime Minister at yesterday’s European Council.

Our view is that last night very good progress was made towards solving the immediate crisis—very good progress on all fronts. The deal put together is much better than was expected yesterday afternoon, but much detail remains unresolved. Having put pressure on the eurozone to get this far, we have to keep up the pressure to get the details completed. They have started down the road; now they have to finish the job.

Let me take each element of last night’s deal in turn, and say how it affects Britain. First, on recapitalising banks, we are pleased that the European Council agreed to the proposal hammered out by myself and other Finance Ministers at the weekend ECOFIN. All major European banks will be required to hold at least a 9 per cent core tier 1 capital ratio by the end of June next year, including marking to market all of their exposure to sovereign debt. The European Banking Authority, based here in London, assessed that achieving this target means banks will require an extra €106 billion of capital, and the Council yesterday confirmed that if this cannot be raised privately, then Governments will have to step up to the plate.

I can confirm to the House today that, in the assessment of the European Banking Authority and our own tripartite authorities, no British bank requires additional capital. This is an important expression of confidence in this country’s banking system at a time of global financial stress. EU member states also agreed to co-ordinate guarantees of term funding, should they be required. We have also ensured that state-aid rules will be properly applied, and European banks will be restructured if necessary, just as the European Commission demanded of the last British Government two years ago.

While some would have wanted an even tougher banking agreement, and even more capital going into Europe’s weak banks, we should welcome what has been achieved with this agreement. Unlike the totally inadequate stress tests of last year, we now have a commitment to significant extra resources for the European banking system. However, the UK and others insisted that that commitment from the whole of the European Union on banking be conditional on the two other key components of the solution to the crisis that I set out: a reinforced firewall and a resolution of Greek debt. These are both properly matters for the eurozone, not the UK—and both were matters on which progress was also made last night.

On Greece, a headline agreement was reached to reduce the Greek debt-to-GDP ratio to 120 per cent by 2020. The eurozone will contribute an additional €30 billion. Because the British Government have made sure that we are not part of the Greek bailout, none of that extra €30 billion will come from our taxpayers, while private holders of Greek sovereign debt will be asked to accept a nominal write-down of 50 per cent. A lot more work is needed to put this all into practice, including detailed negotiations with the private sector—but we said Greece’s debts were unsustainable and we are pleased to see a resolution in sight.

On reinforcing the size of the firewall, the eurozone has set out two options that could operate in tandem. One is to provide, from the bailout fund, insurance on new debt issued by eurozone countries; the second is to create special purpose vehicles that can attract resources from private and public investors. In their statement, they said that,

“the leverage effect of both options will vary”,

but they could be,

“expected to yield around 1 trillion euro”.

We have always believed that the role of the European Central Bank is critical and I welcome the positive statement made by Mario Draghi, the incoming ECB president.

Talk of special purpose vehicles has given rise to questions about the involvement of the IMF and major shareholders such as the UK. As I have said to the House on many occasions, Britain has always been one of the IMF’s largest shareholders and biggest supporters: we helped create the institution 60 years ago; the last Government agreed to increase its resources two years ago; and this Government not only ratified that agreement but helped to make the IMF more representative of the new world economy by brokering a deal last year that gave countries such as China and Brazil a greater say, while securing Britain’s seat on the board. The IMF has been an active participant in the packages put together to support Ireland, Portugal and Greece. It has also been active in extending flexible credit lines to Poland and Mexico—neither of which are in the eurozone, of course—as well as supporting other countries in central and eastern Europe such as Hungary, Romania and Latvia. Indeed, it currently has 53 lending programmes around the world, of which only three are in the eurozone.

Supporting countries that cannot support themselves is what the IMF exists to do, and there may well be a case for further increasing the resources of the IMF to keep pace with the size of the global economy. Britain, as a founding and permanent member of its governing board, stands ready to consider the case for further resources and contribute, with other countries, if necessary. Let us remember that support for the IMF does not add to our debt or deficit, and that no one who has ever provided money to the IMF has ever lost that money. But let me be very clear: we are prepared to see an increase only in the resources that the IMF makes available to all the countries of the world. We would not be prepared to see IMF resources reserved only for use by the eurozone. By all means, the IMF can use its expertise and advice to help the eurozone create the special purpose vehicle that it is considering. By all means, let countries with large foreign currency reserves such as China consider putting their own money into the eurozone’s special purpose vehicle—that must be their decision—but the IMF cannot put its own resources in; it can lend only to countries with a programme for adjustment.

Moreover, I can confirm today that Britain will not be putting its resources in either. We do not have a surplus; we have a very large deficit. We have had to use our own resources to recapitalise our banks and to stand behind our currency. An active member of the IMF? Yes. A supporter of the IMF, helping with advice and technical support? Yes. But the IMF contributing money to the eurozone bailout fund? No. Britain contributing money to the eurozone bailout fund? No. That is Britain’s clear position.

We expect the eurozone members to use the next few days—at most, weeks—to provide much more detail about their plans to increase their firewall and sort out Greek debt. We have made it clear that the sooner this happens, the better for the whole world economy. We must maintain the momentum.

This package will not on its own resolve the longer-term issues of how to make the euro work more effectively. Those longer-term issues were addressed yesterday, and they included proposals for greater fiscal integration and mutual control over the budget policies of eurozone member Governments. I said many months ago that this is where the remorseless logic of monetary unions leads, and it does involve a loss of national sovereignty for countries in the eurozone.

It is in Britain’s interest that the euro operates more effectively, provided that the interests of all 27 member states are properly protected in key areas of European policy like the single market, competition and financial services. We are insistent that our voice will continue to be heard and our national interests protected. We have found allies among the other 10 members of the EU not in the euro. An important marker was put down in Sunday’s European Council conclusion.

No one pretends that sorting this out in a satisfactory way will be easy, but it is a necessity. That is the context in which we should approach potential changes to the treaty. This coalition Government have already proved that they can protect Britain’s interest by getting us out of the last Government’s involvement in eurozone bailouts, holding down the European Union budget and putting into law the guarantee that no further powers or competencies can be transferred to Brussels without the consent of the British people in a referendum. Now this Government will protect Britain’s interests again as the discussions on a possible limited treaty change begin. We will seek to rebalance the responsibilities between the EU and its member states, which in our view has become unbalanced.

Finally, the euro will not find lasting stability until its peripheral members become more competitive. That means credible plans to reduce budget deficits—a commitment made in the very first section of yesterday’s agreement—but it also involves difficult decisions on pension ages, business tax rates, welfare reform and educational standards. Britain, thankfully, is not in the euro, but we are taking these difficult decisions because the ultimate lesson of this crisis is that unless you can pay your way in the world, and compete around the globe, then your country will be next in the firing line. I am determined that that country will never be Britain”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on asking, in my experience, the maximum number of questions in the minimum amount of time, which certainly gives me a bit of a challenge. He addressed some of the key issues that are left outstanding, which is very helpful, and I shall attempt to address as many of his questions as I can.

First, on the sufficiency of the bank recapitalisation, what is important here is that for the first time, unlike the somewhat obscure and clearly failed stress tests—failed in the sense that they were not nearly tough enough—we have a very clear direction about the hurdle of 9 per cent core tier 1 capital on the basis that sovereign debt is market to market and the European Banking Authority has done the calculations on that basis. That is materially different from the way that the assessment was made last year, which was woeful in its inadequacy. To be absolutely clear, through that process and through the ongoing process of the tripartite authorities—particularly the FSA in the UK—under this assessment UK banks do not need any new capital, as indeed is the case for banks in a number of other countries, including the Netherlands and, critically, Ireland.

The noble Lord asked about Ireland and I shall come back to that in a minute. He also asked specifically about the UK’s exposure to other peripheral countries, and it may be helpful to give the latest data on that. The information is set out on the Bank of England website, and the latest numbers that it gives are that UK financial and monetary institutions have exposures to the public sectors of the peripheral eurozone countries—that is, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy—of up to $34 billion, the currency in which the numbers are reported. Twenty-five billion dollars of that relates to the public sectors of Italy and Spain, and a total of $9 billion to Greece, Ireland and Portugal—$3 billion to Greece, $4 billion to Ireland and $2 billion to Portugal. These are relatively modest numbers in most cases compared with those for other core European countries. They are much lower than the exposures of banks in France and Germany, for example, to Greece.

So far as concerns Ireland, as I just said, the first thing that came out of the statement overnight is that the Irish banks do not require further capital injections as a result of this package. I support the euro summit’s statement on Ireland—that it is making good progress on the full implementation of its adjustment programme. As we all know, it is clearly in our national interest that the Irish economy is successful and that its banking system is stable. Ireland accounts for some 6 per cent of Britain’s exports, and that is why we signed the bilateral loan agreement with it. As is clear from everything that has happened since then, the Irish Government have a strong commitment to programme implementation, and we very much welcome that.

A recently completed staff mission ahead of the fourth EU/IMF review of Ireland’s programme concluded that Ireland is indeed delivering its programme effectively and making substantial progress on deficit reduction, banking repair and structural reforms. The progress that Ireland has made is a positive lesson for other countries in Europe.

The noble Lord then asked whether the €1 trillion is sufficient. The critical point for now is that, although a lot of numbers have been bandied around in negotiating the package, we have gone up a step from €440 million to €1 trillion and that is a very significant increase. The first priority is to see to the details because, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, points out, important details have to be put in place. That has to be the next priority and there is a commitment that we should get the details on that by the end of November, which answers the noble Lord’s question. Otherwise, all I would say about indications of the sufficiency of the package is that the markets—whether the equity markets, the debt markets or the markets in European banks—have been positive today and although we should not set too much store by one day's reaction in the market, clearly that reaction has been positive, having looked at the statement and the package.

Turning to jobs and growth, of course we want the EU27, as well as the eurozone, to be putting in much more effort, as I have already said, to questions of structural reform, competition policy, external trade and so on. From the Statement it is clear that yesterday the Council was looking hard at these matters, not least in drawing attention to the Spanish plans for structural reform and the new Italian plan for growth. To be fair to the eurozone, both in the generality and in relation to two of the countries that wish to see speedy action, growth issues are certainly not forgotten.

On the noble Lord's jibes about the UK, I stress again that the approach of the UK Government is threefold: first, we must stick to the deficit reduction plan if we are to have the continued low interest rates which we need for sustained recovery; secondly, yes, there is room for monetary activism, as seen in the Bank of England's recent announcement on more quantitative easing but also in my right honourable friend the Chancellor's announcement that we are looking at further credit easing measures; and thirdly, yes, we need to continue to bring forward supply-side reforms, as we will do in and around the autumn Statement next month to underpin medium-term balanced growth.

The noble Lord asked about issues concerning the structure of the euro-ins and the euro-outs, treaty changes and so on. As regards what “closely informed” means, the best evidence is what happened over the past few days: the Prime Minister successfully argued that we needed to have a seat at the table yesterday for issues that concern the whole EU27 and specifically there was the bank recapitalisation. That was accepted; we were there; the other euro-outs were there and we were kept extremely closely informed about the deliberations within the eurozone. The best thing to look at is the evidence of how that worked over the past couple of days.

The eurozone Statement talks about possible treaty changes, so we must not jump the gun and say that there will be some. I do not have the wording of that paragraph in front of me, but it makes the point that they are not necessarily extensive changes—I forget the adjective.

[Lord Liddle]

Limited.

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank the noble Lord for that—possible limited treaty changes. We should not get excessively excited too soon about that but, if and when the treaty changes come forward, the first priority of the UK Government will be to ensure that those treaty changes are fit for purpose in terms of the better governance that we want in the eurozone, and the second is that we will take every opportunity at that point to see what advantage we can get for the UK out of the discussions around any package that may come forward. I hope that that rather briskly answers the noble Lord’s many questions.

[Lord Newby]

Reverting to a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and the IMF, the Chancellor very helpfully pointed out in the Statement:

“Let us remember that support for the IMF does not add to our debt or deficit, and that no one who has ever provided money to the IMF has ever lost that money”.

Why, therefore, does he go on to say,

“But the IMF cannot put its own resources in—it can only lend to countries with a programme for adjustment”,

not least because I thought all the countries that we were talking about had a programme for adjustment? I cannot see why the Government are so averse to involving the IMF, particularly given that the eurozone Ministers are very keen to work with the IMF. Secondly, I ask specifically about tax co-ordination. The European statement says:

“Pragmatic coordination of tax policies in the euro area is a necessary element of stronger economic policy coordination … Legislative work on the Commission proposals for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base and for a Financial Transaction Tax is ongoing”.

The implication is that the eurozone countries are considering imposing those taxes themselves. Is it the Minister’s understanding that they will be in a position to impose those taxes and that common tax base—with the UK out, under the outs—and, if they did that, what would be the Government’s attitude towards it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, I shall try to clear up what I think is a small confusion in relation to what the IMF can or cannot do under its own rules and what we would be prepared to be part of or not part of. Of course, the IMF is involved directly in the Greek package, as it is with two other packages within the eurozone. So three programmes out of the 53 in which the IMF is currently involved are indeed eurozone ones and that is perfectly proper and we support the IMF’s commitment in adjustment programmes of that kind. We would not support the IMF participating in some special purpose vehicle fund, but I do not believe that it has the ability to do that anyway and the UK certainly will not be involved in that. If China and other countries want to be involved, that is fine and that is their decision, but we will not be involved and we will not support any IMF involvement in that route. We will support the IMF's involvement in country adjustment programmes, such as it has done throughout its history. That is what the IMF is there for. There may be some confusion on that.

On tax co-ordination, first, the UK Government stick strictly to their position that we believe that taxation is, and should remain, a matter of national competency. It is up to the eurozone if it wants to propose some different arrangements within the eurozone consistent with the need for greater fiscal co-ordination in it. On the one specific proposal that has come forward so far—the financial transaction tax—first, we have said that there may be some basis for such a tax but only where it is globally applicable because if it is applied in Europe it will simply drive business away from Europe and, critically, away from the City of London, and that makes no sense. Secondly, in bringing forward that proposal the Commission was completely clear that the article under which it comes forward is one on which unanimity is required and therefore QMV could not force us into it.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, I do not in any way want to belittle any of the efforts that have been made, but does the Minister accept that over the past 24 hours in Europe we have been arguing over the size of the sticking plaster on a corpse that has an underlying chronic problem? Did he not indicate the nature of that problem when he said that the eurozone will work only if the countries in it approximate towards relative competitiveness? Is not the key problem that that should have preceded the onset of a single currency? The delusion that you could politically impose a single currency on such variegated competitive levels inside 17 countries was always bound to end with the chronic problem that we are facing. In view of that, what is the strategic thinking of the Government? Do they now maintain that the present membership of the euro is an inviolate and irreducible minimum? If they do, do they therefore accept that it can exist only with the concentration of ever closer political and fiscal union inside the eurozone? Can the Minister explain how support for ever closer political and fiscal union inside the eurozone accords with the Government’s view of opposition to ever closer political union within the wider 27? If not a contradiction, is there not at least a very difficult paradox underlying the strategic position in which the Government now find themselves?

[Lord Sassoon]

First, it is probably not productive to rake over too much of the history of this. An awful lot of those who advocated the creation of the euro and the UK’s participation in it have been proved completely wrong by the way that events have unfolded over recent years. Therefore, arguing about whether competitiveness should have come before or after the creation of the euro is more for historians. That is why it was in my right honourable friend the Chancellor’s Statement that the competitiveness of the euro-periphery countries, vis-à-vis Germany as the benchmark of economic and industrial efficiency in Europe, is a critical issue that has to be addressed; and that the second dimension is the competitiveness of the EU as a whole in a global economy. I completely agree with the noble Lord that this has to be central to the solution going forward.

As to who should or should not be in the euro and what the size of it should be, that is for the euro to work out. The Government have no view on whether euro membership is inviolable. We simply say that that is a matter for the eurozone. What we want to see is these issues of competitiveness within and without the eurozone very high on the agenda. As far as dealing with internal competitiveness is concerned, that inevitably means a degree of closer fiscal co-ordination, the inevitability of transfer payments between members and all the logic that flows from that.

The competitiveness of the EU27 and the outward-facing euro are completely different matters that do not require similar questions of political union. We have a very good paradigm in which the EU27 can co-operate. It is just a matter of them focusing on the structural, market, competition and financial regulation issues, none of which requires any closer political union. They are technocratic, single-market trade and economic issues.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, I congratulate the Chancellor on the extremely active and skilful way in which he has defended British interests in the course of these very complex negotiations. As far as the possible costs of the operation are concerned, will my noble friend clarify the situation? Is he saying that under the arrangements that are now put forward there can be no cost to the UK taxpayer? It would seem to be true of the first part of the Statement. The position with regard to the IMF seems a little obscure because, if I understand it correctly, the Chancellor is saying that he is prepared to contribute more to the IMF but will not contribute if that money is going towards bailing out the eurozone or members of the eurozone. Will my noble friend say how that is to be achieved because, from my experience of the IMF, I am not at all clear?

As far as the banking side of things is concerned, my noble friend suggests that the Government may get involved in the process of recapitalisation if other methods do not succeed. Will he tell us what the likely or potential cost of that could be and, in particular, if we are going to contribute to the recapitalisation, is there any implication as far as ownership of the banks is concerned?

Finally, I shall pick up the point just made. At the end of the day, as far as I can see, none of these huge amounts of money being thrown around will make a significant difference to the competitiveness of, let us say, the Greeks. If the IMF is involved, then perhaps it will because it imposes very stringent conditions which, on the whole, have been enforced, but all this money is simply flowing around to bail out the Greeks. It is not making them more competitive. Indeed, is it not fairly apparent that the Greeks joined the eurozone at an exchange rate at which they were not competitive? As far as one can see, it is inconceivable that they will become competitive. These measures certainly do not do much to achieve that. In that case, are we simply delaying the day, sooner or later, when the Greeks have to leave the euro?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, let me try again on the IMF because my right honourable friend and I seem to have failed so far to get this clear. I will have another go. There was a proposal under the previous Government, which was endorsed by this Government—and voted against by the Opposition in another place even though their party had previously put it forward—for the IMF to increase its resources to match the growth in the global economy. It has nothing to do directly with the eurozone but is to do with the size of the global economy and the IMF’s global mandate. We support that increase in resources.

I should say again that no member shareholder of the IMF has lost any money on the back of the IMF’s contribution to the many adjustment programmes that it has entered into for many years. In relation to Europe and the eurozone, the IMF is involved in the three eurozone programmes. We have no difficulty about the IMF being involved. That is what it is there to do, provided it is entering into adjustment programmes related to eurozone countries on the same basis as it has done to this point and as it would do with any other country. That is absolutely fine. However, the IMF should not contribute to some special eurozone fund—that is not what the IMF is there for—and I have no reason to believe it will do that. We certainly would not be part of any such special use of IMF resources.

It is not correct to say that there will be any UK contribution to the recapitalisation of the eurozone banks. If there is a contribution from the public sector, the taxpayers of Europe, it will come from those countries that have contributed to the ring-fenced fund, the EFSF, and the UK is not part of that fund. We have recapitalised our own banks. We are not contributing to the recapitalisation of the eurozone banks. I hope that that is also clear.

Greek competitiveness is addressed by the adjustment programme agreed with the EU and the IMF. The challenge is to make sure that, under the normal ongoing monitoring programme over the next few years, Greece is held to its commitments. But, critically, there are, in its adjustment programme on which its bailout package is conditional, all sorts of conditions aimed to increase Greek competitiveness.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

I am grateful and I will be brief. I should like further clarification on the position of the IMF, which has been significantly involved with these negotiations. As I understand it, the IMF is already subscribing to three country adjustment programmes and will continue to do so. It has indicated that it may be required to look for more money from members of the IMF to put more cash into those programmes. I think that I am correct in my understanding of the Minister on that. If that is the case, we are therefore putting more money into the eurozone venture.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will not repeat at length what I have said. It was the proposal of the previous Government, and endorsed by this Government, that we should support an increase of resources of the IMF to match its global commitments, which continues to be the situation. We will continue to be supportive of the IMF having resources in total commensurate with its global mission and mandate. That is quite separate from its contribution to EU programmes, which are looked at country by country in the same way as the IMF looks at the other 50 programmes that it has on the go at the moment, and other proposals that may come forward.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing the Statement to this House. Perhaps I may digress slightly from the euphemistic terms that he has used today to explain away a potential disaster. I have noticed that the Government bring domestic issues to this House in fairly radical terms instead of, perhaps, in succinct amendments. I am thinking of education, health and so on. How is it that the Government ignore the fundamental flaws in the European arrangements which have brought us to this state? How is it, for example, that we are prepared to accept in July 2012 the Republic of Cyprus taking over the presidency, when it is an acolyte of Greece that is probably £6 billion to £8 billion in debt, if one discounts the funny Russian money? How is it that we are prepared to allow from July next year for six months something that is bound to impede any efforts by the Commission to move the problem forward in the Greek situation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am answering questions on the eurozone crisis. The question of Cyprus has nothing to do with it. I am sure there will be other opportunities to discuss that.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, today marks the beginning of a profound change in our relationship with the EU. If we are going to have fiscal and political integration in 17 countries, leaving 10 outside, it is undoubted that we are going to have a different relationship. Winston Churchill said that the British nation was unique in wishing to hear bad news, irrespective of how bad it was. In saying that British banks do not require recapitalisation in the assessment of the European Banking Authority, can the Minister tell us when the authority made that assessment in the light of the fast-changing nature of the evolution of this crisis and the lack of transparency in the role of credit default swaps? The timing of when this assessment was made would be very useful to know.

[Lord Sassoon]

It made the assessment very recently. Indeed, the numbers are going to be reworked over the coming days and weeks to make sure that they are as absolutely up to date as they need to be for the recapitalisation to take place.

Impact of Government Policies on Family Budgets

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, for initiating this debate on an important topic and for all the contributions that have been made.

As your Lordships are aware, and as we have been reminded, we are living through a period of real international uncertainty and instability. The eurozone, as we heard earlier, has been and is at the epicentre of this crisis, but the volatility has reached right around the world—to the US and China, and of course here in the UK. We are not immune from what is going on in our largest export markets. That instability acts as a powerful drag on what was already a difficult recovery from the deepest debt-fuelled recession in living memory.

It is right when we face such difficulties to ask ourselves: are we doing enough to support families; are we doing enough to protect the budgets of the poorest families; are we doing enough to provide opportunities for the youngest in our society; are we doing enough to support working parents; and, most importantly, are we doing enough to put the economy back on track to provide the opportunities, jobs and growth that we all need? When we came into government we inherited the deepest recession since the war and the largest budget deficit in our modern history. The adjective that the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, used was “dire”. I agree. It was absolutely vital that we tackled that deficit. High deficits lead merely to higher inflation, taxes and interest rates. Cutting the deficit is a vital precondition to growth and prosperity. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Stoneham of Droxford for underlining this point.

As we have seen over the past year, UK gilt yields and interest rates generally have fallen dramatically in response to the tough choices that we made in our spending review. Low interest rates help businesses to refinance debt and help families to stay in their homes. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, was quite right to remind us that even in this time of low interest rates, debt is a very real problem for many in our society. Even a 1 per cent increase in interest rates would take £10 billion out of the pockets of families through higher mortgage payments. I therefore applaud the debt advice provided by a wide range of private and not-for-profit organisations. It is important that consumers know that many free and high-quality sources of help and advice are available from publicly supported projects and the voluntary sector.

Perhaps I may add a comment on one aspect to which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, drew attention—graduate debt—because I do not entirely share his analysis. Under the new system, all graduates will pay less per month than under the old system and they will have a longer repayment term of up to 30 years compared to the current 25 years. It is important to remember that.

Generally, on the deficit and interests rates, it is by getting ahead of the curve, by consolidating on our own terms, that we have avoided the uncertainty and the instability that have cut through other countries and plunged families in other parts of Europe into even more austerity and difficulty. More than that, in our spending review, we took the decisions to tackle the deficit in a proportionate, responsible, but also a fair, way. Therefore, I completely reject the charges coming from the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. Indeed, we are all in this together and it is critical that those who can, pay most. That is why we have tackled the deficit in the way we have.

The first transparent analysis of the distributional effects of our budget and spending measures—something never produced by previous Governments—shows that after combining the impact of tax, tax credit and benefit, and public service spending changes announced by this Government, the top 20 per cent of households will make the greatest contribution towards reducing the deficit as a percentage of their income and benefits in kind from public services. We take those distributional effects very seriously.

We are also taking more from the banks in our ongoing taxation of them than the previous Government did through their one-off tax on bonuses. In relation to VAT, I share the analysis of my noble friend Lord Stoneham of Droxford. I believe that what we did to reverse the previous Government’s national insurance tax—a tax on jobs—is what really mattered in making the difficult choices about where to prioritise tax measures so as to get our economy going again. These are painful choices, but it was our partial reversal of that tax on jobs, which noble Lords opposite did not mention, that was key to getting the economy going again. We took particular care to reduce the impacts on family budgets.

In relation to fuel poverty and rising fuel prices—a very important subject raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, my noble friend Lord Stoneham and the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley—we have to acknowledge first of all the reality of rising world oil prices. We cannot be insulated from that. But what has this Government’s response been? We cancelled the previous Government’s fuel duty escalator and cut fuel prices. We have taken action on fuel duty, which has resulted in average pump prices being about six pence a litre lower than if we had continued with the previous Government’s fuel duty plans. A typical Ford Focus driver will be paying about £56 less this year than he or she otherwise would have been doing. We have introduced the fair fuel stabiliser so that when oil prices are high, and oil profits are higher, fuel duty will increase by inflation only. This will ensure that the burden of high oil prices is better shared between oil companies and motorists. I say again that energy price increases are never welcome for consumers and we recognise that. It is important that these are limited to the costs and risks borne and are not about energy companies making excessive profits.

That is why we strongly support Ofgem’s work in ensuring competition in the energy industry, including the recent proposals stemming from the retail market review launched in November last year. That is why we are taking a range of other actions to increase people’s control over—and help them reduce—their energy bills. We are setting up the Green Deal for energy efficiency and the supporting energy company obligations. We are rolling out smart meters that will enable consumers to manage their energy use better and introducing the warm house discount to provide cash rebates for around 2 million vulnerable households by 2014-15. So, yes, we share the concern but I reject the charge that we are not going about it in a sensitive and proportionate way.

Taking some of our other measures to help families, we have made significant above-indexation increases in the child tax credit for the next two years, increasing it by £255 and benefiting 2.4 million low to middle-income families. This will also ensure that modelled tax and welfare policy introduced by this Government will have no adverse impact on child poverty for the next two years. I say that directly to the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth. He shakes his head but, again, we now have the benefit of the introduction by this Government of the independent Office for Budget Responsibility so that we can no longer make up such claims; all these things have to be independently assessed.

We made changes to the personal allowances to provide support for hard-working families on low and middle incomes, and increased the rewards for work. The increases in the personal allowances announced at the 2010 and 2011 Budgets will benefit 25 million individuals in 2012-13 and take 1.1 million of the lowest-income tax payers out of tax altogether. Our aim is to ensure that no one earning less than £10,000 will be caught in the income tax net. My noble friend was completely right to draw attention to this policy.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I would not normally intervene but he mentioned the Office for Budget Responsibility. Would he support the OBR having to report on relative child poverty as part of its reporting?

[Lord Sassoon]

The OBR has a very clear and extremely wide remit. The previous Government had absolutely no check on any of their numbers. They could rewrite cycles or determine what path of growth they wanted to show. So I think we are now in a completely different world. Perhaps I may press on, because time is short.

We have reformed child benefit so that families with a higher-rate taxpayer are no longer eligible. Low and middle-income families are no longer being taxed to pay for child benefit for the rich. That, again, is another aspect of fairness. Of course, noble Lords have mentioned the important triple lock on pensions that we have introduced.

Finally in this area, this month my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced a freeze on council tax bills. Therefore, there will be a council tax freeze for a second year and that will provide real help for households in difficult times. Of course, in the spending review there were still difficult decisions to make on what to cut, but the previous Government’s welfare spending was both unsustainable and unsuccessful.

Tackling poverty is not about moving families and children above some arbitrary line. It is not reduced by throwing good money after bad. This Government are taking a long-term strategic view to tackling poverty, which is about more than just welfare transfers; it is a strategy focused on transforming people’s lives and the lives of future generations. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for reducing these almost abstract concepts to some really vivid case studies. I say to noble Lords that it is to that end, and it is in recognition of these very difficult situations, that we are increasing expenditure on public services where they can tackle the root causes of disadvantage. That is why we will introduce the fairness premium, refocus Sure Start and improve education. That will help to break cycles of disadvantage. The new fairness premium is worth £7.2 billion over the spending review period and will provide support to the poorest families in the UK. It will extend 15 hours a week of early years education and care from 2012-13 to all disadvantaged two year-olds; it will maintain Sure Start in cash terms, including new investment in Sure Start health visitors; it will introduce a substantial schools premium, rising to £2.5 billion by 2014-15, to support the educational development of disadvantaged pupils; and it will protect those on the lowest incomes in higher education through a scholarship fund of £150 million by 2014-15.

We are also reforming welfare to ensure that welfare payments are targeted at those who need them most and we are reforming tax credits to focus them on those who need them most. That means reducing the rate at which tax credits are withdrawn, while reducing the threshold at which they are paid. Importantly, we want to ensure that those who can move into work have a real incentive to do so. Currently some 800,000 individuals, including around a quarter of a million children, live in households where no one has ever worked. That has to be changed and it will be changed through the new universal credit being introduced over two Parliaments. To support working parents, the Government have agreed the extension of support with childcare costs to those working less than 16 hours, as part of the new universal credit, which will enable the transition of second earners, typically women, into the labour market.

In conclusion, this Government fully understand the difficulties that families face in the current economic environment. The biggest thing that we can do as a Government to help families is to return the economy to sustainable growth: private sector growth through innovation, enterprise and export—sustainable, not debt-fuelled growth—that delivers the stability and jobs that we need across the country. That is our overriding priority. Tackling the deficit is the precondition to realising that ambition. The recovery will be difficult, but we will not let the poor and vulnerable bear the brunt of these difficult times. We are committed to helping families, young people and jobseekers realise their ambitions and fulfil their proposals. I am grateful to the noble Lord for introducing this debate.

Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2011

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Sassoon]

That the draft Legislative Reform Order laid before the House on 19 July be approved.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, industrial and provident societies—co-operatives as they are better known—and credit unions have made a long and invaluable contribution to our society. For centuries they have been a driving force for common endeavour and mutual support. From high street co-operatives to pubs and football clubs, from healthcare to agriculture and from education to local shops, co-operatives and credit unions are cornerstones of our communities.

The strength of the co-operative economy today, with more than £30 billion in turnover and more than 13 million members, is testimony to the trust and value that we place in them. Credit union membership continues to grow across Great Britain, enhancing the diversity of our financial services, with membership on track to exceed 1 million this year. Despite a difficult economic environment, credit unions continue to provide much needed finance and support to local people and communities. Co-operatives and credit unions are a key element of the coalition Government’s vision to empower local communities. Both will benefit from the changes introduced by the legislative reform order that we are debating today, which will reduce burdens and remove obstacles to enable them to grow and extend their services to new members.

The legislative reform order has been a long time in the making. Consultations with the mutual sector began in 2007, and co-operatives and credit unions took the lead in proposing measures designed to bring their regulatory and legislative frameworks into the 21st century. The proposals themselves fall into two parts: those applying to co-operatives and those applying to credit unions.

There are six proposals of benefit to co-operatives. The first abolishes the minimum age for membership and reduces it for those wishing to hold office. This will enable young people to engage more actively with their local co-op, and in some cases to become officers sitting on their local committees. The second removes the restriction on the maximum holding of non-withdrawable shares in a co-operative. This will enable co-operatives to raise capital more easily.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister greeted my arrival at the Front Bench with a slightly wintry smile earlier. Whether he thought I was late, though I assure him I was descending from the rarefied atmosphere of the Back Benches, which is why I was slightly delayed, or whether he anticipated that this debate had some hidden horrors, I am not sure. He will, however, by now have appreciated the fact, from the contributions both of my noble friend Lord Kennedy and of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that this measure is most welcome and Her Majesty’s Opposition are delighted to see it being presented today.

As noble Lords have already spoken about the virtues and possibilities of the credit union and the Minister himself paid due tribute to their work, it would be otiose of me to expand on that matter and, as I am given to brevity, noble Lords will appreciate that I will take as read the reason why this order should commend itself to the House. However, I have some questions to ask, which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. What does he expect the removal of the limit on non-withdrawal shares to be? Will this result in dominant members of a society emerging? What steps will the FSA be taking to ensure that societies do not become subject to such dominance whereby a small number of individuals might establish a very considerable influence with regard to these non-withdrawable share holdings?

On credit unions, could I ask about the removal of the common bond, which is the whole point of a credit union, because it provides the self-regulatory strength of mutual knowledge and understanding? What does this mean as far as the future of the credit union is concerned? Does it mean that credit unions will be just another form of financial organisation rather than the distinctive sort of organisation which is being commended in the speeches made so far today in this short debate?

Finally, what does the Minister expect to be the impact of bodies corporate joining credit unions? Will this not lead to small commercial enterprises exploiting the financial strength of the credit union to further the interests of their own businesses? In other words, would credit unions become tied to businesses instead of being independent? After all, one business which might supply 10 per cent of the assets of the credit union will undoubtedly be a powerful force within it.

We welcome this legislation, but I would be grateful if the Minister could give me some assurance on those limited anxieties.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the small but focused and committed group of noble Lords who have spoken with clear knowledge and some degree of passion about this, as it is important. It is clear from all sides that there is strong support for the work that co-operatives and credit unions undertake across Great Britain.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Exemption) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2011

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Eatwell]

With the leave of the Committee, I wonder whether I might make a statement before the Minister rises and request that he withdraw this order on the following grounds. First, much of the relevant material of this order is still under consultation by the Financial Services Authority. The consultation concludes on 31 October and today is 17 October. Secondly, I draw the Minister’s attention to the report of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee, which, on 13 October, wrote to the Treasury with a reminder of the need to make summaries of consultation responses available at the time an instrument is laid and to ensure that the summary for this draft instrument is available before the debate in this House.

Thirdly, a lot of the scrutiny of this order is dependent on the Opposition and other noble Lords having access to the results of the consultation so that they can properly and fully scrutinise the consequences of the order. The results of the consultation are not available and it is therefore not possible for noble Lords to effectively scrutinise this legislation. If we proceed, it would be the sort of action that brings Parliament into disrepute.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, there is perhaps some confusion about what we are doing here today and what else needs to be done in connection with this order from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

Let me start by explaining the situation we are in, because it is complicated. The previous Government in March 2010 made a decision—a joint decision of Treasury Ministers and Ministers of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland—that credit unions in Northern Ireland should no longer be exempt from regulation under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and that responsibility for their regulation should transfer from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to the Financial Services Authority. That decision was taken by the previous Government and we are considering the order today. As the Deputy Chairman reminded us, the formal business is moved on the Floor of the House. We are considering the statutory instrument that puts into place a decision by the previous Government.

The running consultation is about consequential provisions relating to the details of the transfer, the transitional arrangements, grandfathering, temporary powers for the FSA, how information will transfer between the department and the FSA, and consequential issues to do with money laundering and terrorist financing. Those will all be dealt with—to the extent they need to be—in the appropriate way through instruments or regulation. Therefore, what is being consulted at the moment is nothing that should detain us from putting in place a decision by the previous Government with which this Government completely agree. In our view, it is about time that we got on with the enabling instrument and there is no reason not to allow the consultation on the “how” of the transfer to carry on in the normal way.

The Treasury is publishing today responses to the original policy proposals in principle. However, the decision was originally taken and announced in a joint document by the UK Government and the Northern Ireland department in March 2010. I think we should turn to the substance of the order.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but given my noble friend Lord Eatwell’s comments and the confusion that the Minister alleges my noble friend had, would it not have been easier to wait? Is there any reason why the Minister wants to move this Motion now, given that it would have been easier to consider the two orders together for the sake of clarity?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am not alleging any confusion other than that this is a complicated series of manoeuvres that has to be gone through to effect the transfer. It is quite right that we should consult on the how. It is for this Committee to decide the simple and important issue of principle as to whether the people of Northern Ireland, 50 per cent of whose population have their money invested in credit unions, are given the proper and full protection which FSA regulation would give them. Of course it is important that the how of the transfer is properly considered, which is what the current consultation is all about, but it might be sensible if we considered the arguments—which I think are extremely clear cut; there is nothing between the previous Government and the present Government on this—that we need to get on and give those in Northern Ireland, a very significant number of people, the protection afforded to those who put deposits in banks in the whole of the United Kingdom and currently put deposits in credit unions in Great Britain.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)]

My Lords, I believe that the Minister has not yet finished the speech he wishes to make in order to put the Motion. We must first put the Motion before it can be discussed, so we must wait until he is ready to say that he wishes to put it.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, credit unions operate throughout the United Kingdom, providing savings and loans services, mostly in their local communities. Although the credit union sector in Great Britain is relatively small, it makes a large contribution to the financial inclusion agenda by operating in areas of poverty where local communities often lack access to affordable credit. In contrast, the credit union sector in Northern Ireland is extremely significant within the financial services landscape. Approximately 50 per cent of the adult population of Northern Ireland are members of their local credit union.

That is why, quite properly, the previous Government decided that that situation needed to be looked at and resolved. It was the belief of the previous Government, confirmed by the present Government, that credit unions in Northern Ireland should be brought under the Financial Services and Markets Act. That is for three main reasons.

The first is for reasons of financial stability. Given the significance of credit unions in Northern Ireland, the collapse of the sector would have a devastating impact on entire communities’ access to financial services and credit facilities.

Secondly, the order will ensure that the deposits of each Northern Ireland credit union member will be protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, the FSCS. This will guarantee each deposit up to the £85,000 limit, in line with credit union members in Great Britain. The current legislation exempts these credit unions from this guarantee. As a result, there is a distortion in the level of consumer protection provided for credit unions across the United Kingdom. Removing the current exemption from the Financial Services and Markets Act will address this distortion and prevent members from relying on untested depositor protection schemes run by the various trade bodies across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Those credit unions that are unaffiliated with one of those trade bodies currently have no depositor protection. That is wrong. Northern Irish credit union depositors should be put on the same footing as those elsewhere in the United Kingdom; and as with bank depositors.

Thirdly, by removing the exemption from the Financial Services and Markets Act, the members of each Northern Ireland credit union will have recourse to the Financial Ombudsman Service if they encounter any dispute with their credit union. Again, this is an aspect of consumer protection not currently afforded to members in Northern Ireland and is another positive aspect of the proposed legislative changes.

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Moved by

[Lord Sassoon]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Exemption) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2011.

Relevant document: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I put a question to the noble Lord, which he has not answered, regarding the response of the people of Northern Ireland to the question about whether they agree with the order. On this side of the Committee we are entirely supportive of the objectives of the order. That is not the point that I am raising. My point is that the Merits Committee wrote to the Treasury on 13 October, reminding it to ensure that the summary of this draft instrument was available before the debate in the House. I have not been able to find a summary of the consultation on this draft instrument. Without the reactions of the people of Northern Ireland, who are closely and greatly involved in credit unions, as the Minister pointed out, it is very difficult to offer the order proper scrutiny. Therefore, I cannot continue, other than to say that it would be appropriate for the Treasury to ensure that relevant consultation material is published, as the Merits Committee requires, prior to consideration of draft legislation by the Committee.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, I broadly welcome the intention of this order, but I find myself wanting to ask the Minister why it has taken such a long time to bring it forward when it was self-evident that it was necessary and had been agreed by the previous Government and endorsed by the coalition parties when previously discussed. It seems lamentable that the Government have allowed the situation to go on for as long as it has without taking any necessary action.

When it comes to this particular order, we do not have sight of the evidence that we were assured would be available to us in informing our discussion and agreement. What harm would be done if the Government withdrew the order and brought it back after we have had an opportunity to consider the evidence that is so clearly necessary to inform our decision on this matter? It simply cannot be acceptable that the evidence has been published only this morning. As far as I am aware, no effort has been made to make it available to those who are likely to attend this session and discuss this matter. That is an inexcusable failure by the Minister and the Treasury, for which the Minister owes us a full and proper account. The right approach would be to withdraw this order until we have had adequate opportunity to discuss the evidence.

In the mean time, I support the question that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked. Can the Minister give us clarity, given that the Government have been so slow in bringing this matter forward, as to the position of people with accounts and business relationships with Northern Ireland credit unions that have experienced difficulty? Do the Government stand behind them until such time as the Financial Services Compensation Scheme becomes an eligible right of those with relationships with credit unions? Will the Minister also assure us that to the best of the knowledge of the Treasury and the FSA credit unions are not currently offering products in Northern Ireland to which they are not entitled by virtue of their authorities? The Minister at the end of his speech listed some of the products that credit unions would be able to offer once this order was implemented, but which they are not currently able to.

Finally—I ask this having dealt with these matters myself—can the Minister tell us whether any further action is intended with respect of the failure of the Presbyterian Mutual Society, and in particular the directors?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, notwithstanding the welcome rare appearance of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, as a former Treasury Minister in this Committee, it is a bit rich of the Opposition to talk about delay in this order. The Northern Ireland credit unions were left out of FSA regulation from the time that the Financial Services and Markets Act was enacted in 2000 until the previous Government left office 18 months ago. So for members of the Opposition to talk about the delay of this Government in not getting the order through earlier while on the other hand asking for evidence of a decision that they had taken before the election—seemingly without waiting for the evidence that they are now asking for—is indeed a bit rich. If noble Lords on the other side really want to persist with this line, this order will not get through, as it has to in the next few days and weeks, in order to give the people of Northern Ireland proper protection of their money in mutuals from the proposed transfer date to FSA regulation of March 2012.

What does the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, who has come along with all kinds of clever procedural tricks this afternoon, have to say to the people of Northern Ireland if he is to deprive them yet further of proper protection under the Financial Services Compensation scheme? We need to get this order through if the people of Northern Ireland are to be protected from March of next year.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, to refer to the fact that the Government have apparently published only this morning the evidence of the consultation and the raising of the objection of not having had access to it as a clever procedural trick is an abuse of language.

The point we are making is that the Government should take seriously the consultation with the people of Northern Ireland and make the results of the consultation available to the Opposition so that they can properly scrutinise and assess the impacts of the change. That is all that I asked for. I also pointed out that on 13 October the Merits Committee wrote to the Treasury requesting that the material be published, and it was not published until this morning.

As my noble friends and I have made clear, we are entirely supportive of this legislation. We want to get it through as soon as possible, but we want proper due process. This is an abuse of due process. I think it would be best if we let the Minister proceed with his Motion, because he is not interested in actually debating the issues.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the situation is that we need to have the process complete, as I said, within the next days and weeks. There are a number of orders that need to be laid. In particular, four orders will need to be laid containing the transitional and consequential provisions, because those follow the negative procedure and they can only be made and laid after this affirmative order. So there must be a sequencing here, which we are starting today. All the information that has been requested will be available for the consequential technical provisions, which formed the main substance of the consultation. If we do not get on and lay today’s order, with the four that follow, in the time that is available, there is a very serious risk that transfer to FSA control will be delayed by approximately six months. It could be longer, as the FSA would need to restart the clock on its transfer process.

I am sorry if noble Lords do not like my language, but for those who are looking at this from Northern Ireland and who thought that the previous Government had made a clear decision, I quote from paragraph 1.1 of the March 2010 document, which says:

“Following the decision that credit unions in Northern Ireland should no longer be exempt from regulation under the Financial Services and Markets Act”.

We are today discussing the order which, if formally made, will enact that decision, made by the previous Government last year. The four enabling orders, for which the evidence must, of course, be considered, will be put through by the appropriate negative procedure. However, they cannot be laid until after this affirmative order has gone through. I hope that that explains matters.

In response to the question from my noble friend Lord Newby and the noble Lord, Lord Myners, I accept that there has been delay in this process, although not the 10-year delay of the previous Administration. There has been some delay because this is a matter not just for Her Majesty’s Treasury, but also for the Northern Ireland department. There have also been elections in Northern Ireland. I would have preferred things to have been tidied up a little earlier, but I really do not think that this should prevent us making the critical decision which Northern Ireland is waiting for.

On the responses to the decision in principle, it is, indeed, supported by the Northern Irish public. The published responses are positive. I apologise if the document arrived rather late, but nobody approached us and asked to see it until five minutes before we started. Responses were, on the whole, in favour of the transfer. The concerns expressed, such as they were, were over the nature of the transfer, which is precisely why an FSA consultation is taking place, relating to the four subsequent orders which will come forward and be considered in due course.

The other substantive issues which have been raised in this short debate are important. My noble friend Lord Newby asked about the difficulties in the Republic of Ireland, the consequences of their spreading north and so on. Clearly, the credit union sector in Northern Ireland has been affected by the financial crisis but not to the same extent as institutions in the Republic of Ireland. There remains a divide in the business operations from those institutions over the border as credit union membership is usually limited to a local geographical common bond. There is some crossover with the Republic in the membership of trade bodies and their respective depositor protection schemes, which is another reason that supports getting on with this. However, it is something that we need to get on with as fast as we can anyway.

In answer not only to that question but the related question of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, until we get this new arrangement in place, credit union deposits will remain the responsibility of the devolved Administration, as they have been since the settlement with Northern Ireland some 15 years ago. That could have been cleared up by the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 but it was not. This reinforces why it is right to get on with this, since the whole Committee seems to agree on the principle.

The noble Lord, Lord Myners, also asked for an assurance that credit unions are not offering products that they are not entitled to offer. That remains the responsibility of the Northern Irish department until 31 March 2012 and I cannot speak for the department. After that date, credit unions will fall within FSA regulation in the normal way. The noble Lord also referred to the Presbyterian Mutual Society, which was a sorry saga. The present Government stepped in and helped with the clearing up of it. However, the Presbyterian Mutual Society is not a credit union under the terms of the order and is therefore not directly relevant to this afternoon’s discussion. However, it points out in a different way the importance of seeing that Northern Ireland gets a fair deal across the whole spectrum of financial services.

In summary, these measures are positive for credit unions and their current and future members. The transfer is important for the long-term security of and confidence in a very important financial services sector for Northern Ireland. While there are some upfront costs, they are relatively modest in relation to what we are putting in place. This is positive not only for consumers of financial services in Northern Ireland but should enable the credit unions themselves to develop their business in a positive way by offering further products.

I can only apologise to the Committee for the fact that we did not have the responses out earlier. I believed that they were not a matter of significance in relation to the basic decision, in principle, that was taken in March 2010. If we had received requests for them earlier, we would of course have seen what we could do to have a discussion and go through what was available. However, I was not aware until shortly before the start of this Committee that there were such concerns. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, tried to get hold of my office but was not able to get through this morning. I say again that the evidence relates in particular to the four negative orders which necessarily follow and could never be laid at the same time as this order. I hope that this Committee will give its support to something which all speakers have said they approve of in principle.

Banking: Quantitative Easing

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Barnett]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions have been held by the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding the sale of government-held shares in Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds TSB, and regarding the effect of additional quantitative easing on that sale.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide range of organisations. It is not the Government's practice to provide details of all such meetings

UK Financial Investments—UKFI—manages the Government’s shareholdings in the banks. UKFI aims to dispose of the shares in an orderly manner and it continues to monitor market developments and to look at the range of alternatives. The ultimate decision to proceed with any transaction will rest with HM Treasury.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I am glad to hear that. However, last week it was reported that the Governor of the Bank of England told the Chancellor that he would not use QE to help the banks, including presumably the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds, but, in fact, the quarterly review said that the Government authorised the Bank to pursue a number of activities targeted to improve the facilities of banks. Who is making decisions here: the governor or the Chancellor?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think we risk straying from the Question. I know that, in a masterly wheeze, words about QE were added to this Question late in the day by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. I think that quantitative easing is one of many questions relevant to the sale of bank shares but a relatively small consideration in present circumstances. Given that the Question is about the sale of bank shares, this is one of many factors that is relevant.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, although privatisation of RBS and the Lloyds Banking Group—ideally after separating completely the retail and investment operations of the two groups—is clearly some way off, does my noble friend recognise that the immediate need is for the Government to adopt a much more hands-on relationship with them than hitherto to ensure an adequate flow of lending to small businesses?

[Lord Sassoon]

I very much agree with my noble friend that the immediate priority is not so much consideration of the sale of the banks—UKFI will continue to monitor that closely—but to keep credit flowing. In relation to that, the Merlin agreement is critical. We treat the management of RBS and Lloyds on an arm’s-length basis, but we will ensure, as we have, that we have an agreement with all the major banks to increase lending on what it was last year and what it otherwise would have been. The third quarterly numbers will be released under the Merlin agreement shortly.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, given that the Governor of the Bank of England has said that we are in the worst financial crisis since the 1930s and, conceivably, ever, how can it possibly be sensible for the Government to be actively seeking to sell the taxpayers’ interest in Northern Rock to City financial institutions?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have a portfolio of banks which the Government either wholly or partly own. The Question was about Lloyds and RBS, but we also, as the noble Lord well knows, own Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley. It is within the mandate of UKFI, which was set down by the previous Government, of whom the noble Lord was a member, to have responsibility to seek over time to realise value from the banks. That is precisely what it is exploring in the context of Northern Rock. It is following the noble Lord’s policy.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, given the downgrading by Moody's last week of the credit rating of a number of British banks, do the Government think that they will have to recapitalise RBS and Lloyds?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the downgrading by Moody's last week was long expected by the markets. It is largely a reflection of the fact that under the Vickers proposals—the independent commission's proposals—there will be a different relationship between the banks and the taxpayer: the taxpayer will not be on the hook for the banking system in the way that it was. As a result, as expected, Moody's changed the ratings on a number of banks. Equally, it made it clear that that was not a reflection on the well capitalised state of the UK banking system. The UK banks continue, as Moody's and others have said, to be in a more robust state to withstand shocks from the eurozone than banks on the continent of Europe.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I am not sure that I understood one of the noble Lord’s earlier answers. Does the Treasury expect to get back all the money it has put into the two banks mentioned in the Question? If so, when can we expect to see that money?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I do not think that I touched on that point in a previous answer at all. UKFI has a responsibility, on behalf of the Government, to look, over time, at ways to create value out of the shareholdings, and that is what it will do. There is no question of any particular benchmark; we need to ensure that the taxpayer gets maximum value, subject to questions of competition and financial stability, over time, from the holdings in the banks. That is the mandate that UKFI has.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, when the moment comes for the disposal of the bank shares, can my noble friend give an assurance that the Government will make a more responsible decision than was contained in the sale of gold by the previous Administration?

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[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, my Lords, I can absolutely give that assurance.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will have appreciated the fact that two of the more challenging questions have come from his own side, from the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Newby, about the future of RBS. What preparations are the Government making for recapitalisation of RBS if that proves to be necessary?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it would be completely wrong in any circumstances to speculate on individual banks. The FSA, the Bank of England and the Treasury look at all sorts of scenarios in relation to banks and other systemically important parts of the financial system. As a result of the recapitalisation of the banks and the stringent stress tests which the FSA has conducted repeatedly, the UK banking system is well recognised by the credit rating agencies and by many other commentators and is in a relatively good situation. We now want to see stress tests carried out right across the European banking system as a matter of urgency to proper standards.

Economy: Capital Expenditure

Lord Sassoon Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Barnett]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following announcements by the Deputy Prime Minister on capital expenditure programmes, what consideration they are giving to increasing capital expenditure beyond the amounts included in the Chancellor’s deficit reduction plan.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government are sticking to the spending plans set out in the 2010 spending review. Within this, however, we have been able to fund additional, targeted capital expenditure from otherwise unspent funds. This includes £500 million for the Growing Places initiative and £250 million on broadband access and support for world-leading computer technology.

[Lord Barnett]

I am sure that that will not please Nick too much. My Question asks whether any money has been spent beyond the deficit plan: the answer is clearly no. In any case, the hundreds of millions of pounds which I am happy to see was found in Manchester will surely be overshadowed by the IMF results, which recently forecast that growth of our economy will be not much more than 1 per cent. That in turn will lead to a much higher rather than lower deficit. Indeed, as I am sure the Minister is aware, the Financial Times recently forecast, based on OBR methodology, that the deficit will be £12 billion higher than previously thought. In those circumstances, will the Minister tell us the Treasury's estimate of the deficit at the end of the five-year term?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, knows very well, we have set up the Office of Budget Responsibility to keep track of all the forecast numbers and we will get its update later in the autumn. The critical point is, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said at the weekend, we are spending over £3 trillion of public money in four years and we are not going to wreck what we now have in a very low interest-rate environment for the sake of spending a few more billion. We will stick to our spending plans.

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that although we need to cut public expenditure there is a very strong case for increasing capital expenditure in these austere times to create jobs and, as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett said, to create growth? Furthermore, will the Government explain what they are doing to incentivise and facilitate the private sector to invest in infrastructure once again to create jobs and desperately needed growth?

[Lord Sassoon]

I very much agree with the noble Lord. That is why in the spending review last autumn we increased the amount of capital spend every year, up to £2.3 billion extra in the final year of the period. That is why we are spending £30 billion on transport—one of the most economically enhancing areas of spend and more than was spent in the previous four years. In the private sector, we are ruthlessly attacking the planning system that is so costly and so time-consuming when people want to put infrastructure in. That is why we are making sure that all the market structures, such as in energy, are conducive to the new infrastructure spend we need. That is why we are looking at the whole area of regulation around infrastructure, because I completely agree with him—70 per cent of the economic infrastructure is going to come from the private sector and we are working to make sure that that money flows.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, would my noble friend like to think about terminology? Given that the deficit and the debt are two different things, should we not be talking more about the debt and less about the deficit? The deficit is simply the rate at which the debt is growing and I believe many people in the country think when we talk about cutting the deficit that we are reducing the country’s indebtedness, whereas all we are doing is reducing the rate at which it is growing. If people understood that, perhaps we would have fewer people arguing for additional public expenditure when we simply cannot afford the commitments we already have.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend because the second of our two fiscal targets—namely, to put public sector net debt on a falling trajectory by 2015-16—is extremely important. He is quite right that we have to look at the total stock of debt and its trajectory as well as the deficit.

[Lord Peston]

When will the Government recognise that the present dire state of the economy is attributable overwhelmingly to their own stupid policies?

[Lord Peston]

Is it not about time that the Government apologised to the British people for what they are doing and accepted responsibility for it?

[Lord Sassoon]

It will not surprise the noble Lord if I completely disagree with that. The state of the economy today is largely a result of the debt-fuelled boom with its unregulated banks that was allowed to go on for 10 years and more under the previous Government. We have inherited a dire situation and the first thing we have to do is to get the deficit under control. That we are doing but within that, as I have explained, one of things we are prioritising is infrastructure expenditure.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, if we are to increase infrastructure expenditure it is clear that a lot of that funding is going to have to come from the private sector, as the noble Lord has already said. Given that, can he confirm reports in the press last week that the Treasury is actively considering new structures that would encourage pension funds and other institutional investors to invest a lot more in infrastructure in the UK than they have in recent decades?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am happy to assure my noble friend that we are thinking of every avenue to unlock flows of funds, whether they are from institutions in this country or abroad. I was in Canada two weeks ago, where some of the longest-term and largest investors in our infrastructure are based. We talk to investors all the time to see what more, if anything, they need from government to facilitate that flow of investment.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

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[Lord Sassoon]

I had to look back at the Question for this afternoon, which is about capital expenditure. Although this has nothing directly to do with capital expenditure, it is critical that we make sure that credit flows to the businesses of this country. What my right honourable friend the Chancellor was talking about yesterday was making sure that we examine every avenue possible to ensure that that credit continues to flow.