Financial Services Bill

Lord Mitchell Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, on Report I committed to bring forward a government amendment to give the FCA an effective power to make rules capping the cost and the duration of a regulated credit agreement. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for raising this on Report and to noble Lords on all sides of the House who spoke in support of the need for action against sharp practices in the payday lending industry. The Government warmly welcome the cross-party consensus that emerged on this important issue.

As I said on Report last week, the Government were fully in agreement with the intent behind the noble Lord’s amendment but felt that there were weaknesses in the way it was framed. We have made use of the time between Report and tabling this amendment at Third Reading to get this power right and ensure that it is watertight. Moreover, I also committed to going further than the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, proposed, by making additional consumer protections integral to the power.

The Government’s amendment spells out in detail the kind of rules that the FCA may make to prevent lenders from imposing excessive interest rates or associated charges on borrowers, and clarifies that the FCA would be able to specify the level of the cap in rules and also to define which charges, in addition to interest, should be captured. The amendment also allows the FCA to impose limits on the duration of the agreement, and to specify the detail of the cap and other restrictions in its rules.

Those who have compared the Government’s amendment tabled yesterday with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, will have noted that the Government’s version is significantly longer and more comprehensive in its detail. I said last week that we would take care to frame the power to prevent unscrupulous firms exploiting loopholes and to ensure that consumers were properly protected. The Government specifically ensured that this power covers associated charges to avoid unscrupulous firms “gaming” the restrictions by, for example, reducing the interest rate but introducing exorbitant fees for related services such as setting up the loan. It also specifically captures the practice of rollovers, which we have seen abused by some players in the payday loans industry. Under the amendment the FCA will have a specific power to impose a limit on the overall duration of the rolled-over agreement and a limit on the number of rollovers that are permitted.

The government amendment has also built in robust protections for consumers who fall victim to lenders’ excessive charges. First, the FCA can provide that the lender cannot enforce the agreement and the borrower is not obliged to repay the loan. Secondly, it can provide that any money or property transferred under the agreement—an item that has been pawned, say—must be returned. Thirdly, it can provide that compensation must be paid to the consumer.

Before moving on I will address briefly one provision in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, that we omitted in tabling the Government’s version: namely, a specific reference to consumer detriment or consumer protection. That is because the FCA will already be prompted to respond when it detects consumer detriment. Under Section 137A of FiSMA the FCA may make general rules only for the purposes of advancing one or more of its operational objectives. These are: securing protection for consumers, protecting and enhancing the integrity of the financial system, and promoting effective competition. As such the consumer protection objective will provide the strong underpinning mandate for the FCA to make rules under the new power that we are discussing. It is not therefore necessary to spell it out further in the Bill.

While I am confident that our amendment clarifies the FCA’s role in this important area, we must be careful not to regard this power as a silver bullet that will fix all the problems in the payday lending sector. As the OFT’s recent report into the high-cost credit market showed, it is clear that regulation of the payday lending market as a whole needs to improve. Compared to the current regulatory regime under the OFT, the FCA will have a broader and more effective toolkit to monitor and tackle developments in the market and supervise practice among firms.

Capping the cost of credit and the number of times that the loan can be rolled over is a major market intervention, and I expect the FCA to contemplate the use of this power in a responsible and measured way. I discussed the mixed picture from international evidence on Report. We must avoid at all costs any such cap resulting in catastrophically unintended consequences, such as driving vulnerable consumers to illegal loan sharks. However, as I said on Report, we need to ensure that the FCA grasps the nettle when it comes to payday lending. This amendment grants the FCA the powers to deliver effectively on its consumer-protection objective and tackle consumer detriment. It is a power that I hope all sides of the House will wish to support. I beg to move.

[Lord Mitchell]

My Lords, never in my wildest dreams did I ever expect that I would be standing here at the opposition Dispatch Box with my name on an amendment alongside a government Treasury Minister. It is some achievement and could occur only in your Lordships' House and not in the other place. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby, for the very constructive way in which they responded to the amendment we put forward. They listened to what we had to say, took our comments away and came back with an amendment that is entirely acceptable to us. However, I would not like them to think that this is a complete love fest—normal service will resume at some other time.

It is worth recounting that the Government told us in Committee that the points which we wanted were already in the Bill. We tried hard to find the location of those points—and no doubt they are buried somewhere. However, with an issue like this one, which is so important, it is dangerous to have implied rules which have to be inferred. Many of these payday loan companies have very successful lawyers and access to some of the best brains in the country in this area. The provision would have been a complete dog's breakfast, to be honest.

We tried again at Report, and I admit that I came in here today ready for battle. However, I was astonished and delighted at the complete turnaround that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, has offered. He promised us a better amendment and that is what we have been given. The new amendment is stronger, tighter and more effective, and most of all, it offers complete clarity. I would not be human if I did not savour the moment just a jot. It probably will not happen again, but it is good that it has happened today.

I have been asked why the Government conceded and no doubt at some stage, over a gin and tonic, I will find out. However, I feel that it was due to two reasons —the political argument, and the moral argument. As for the political basis, the Government knew that they would be defeated last Wednesday on Report. It had been a bad couple of weeks for the Government and another defeat was something that they could do without. The moral argument, however, was more important. I was fortunate because the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe of Idlicote and Lady Grey-Thompson, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham added a non-political independent gravitas to what we were trying to do. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate.

The media also took up this cause with a vengeance. Every article and television programme that I read or saw seemed to back our position. They were against the payday lending companies. Indeed, I am sure that the man in the street in this country was also in favour of regulation. Everybody seemed to be in favour of it except for the payday loan companies themselves—and I was nobbled in the most unlikely of locations by them or their representatives telling me how wrong we were. However, the Government conceded because the political and moral arguments were absolutely against them. They did concede and I am grateful to them for the positive way in which they have dealt with this issue.

I had two questions to ask about consumer detriment and time and duration but the Minister has addressed them in his speech. He said that there was no silver bullet for this and I absolutely agree. As we go forward perhaps we should look at what is happening in other countries. I spoke at Report about the experience in Florida, which has had an amazing result. I repeat that anyone who takes out a payday loan in that state has to register it as a charge. They have to pay for it and it goes on to a database. It is known that they have a payday loan. That absolutely prevents any individual having more than one payday loan on any one occasion. That is something that we should look at for the future.

This provision will go forward and become a new law but I believe that it will also become a statement of intent. This amendment is simple, symbolic and now stands alone. This industry is going to be controlled. For many people out there, the world is now a slightly better place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, perhaps I may add to what my noble friend Lord Peston has said. I will not repeat the may/must argument; it has been well enough made, and I hope that we will get a reply from the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. Incidentally, in congratulating my noble friend Lord Mitchell, perhaps it is right that I should also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. This may be our last exchange before he retires.

The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, mentioned the assumption that the FCA will now have the powers to deal with these unscrupulous people regarding payday loan schemes. As my noble friend Lord Mitchell said, they will have lots of good lawyers because when people have many profits to defend, as they do, they tend to use lots of lawyers. While I am not a lawyer, I hope that the noble Lord’s lawyers have indeed drafted this correctly. I know that these things can never be done tightly enough and that once lawyers get involved it finishes up in the courts for somebody else to decide. That is bound to happen and I am not blaming the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, or his legal advisers for it. In my experience, when court actions involve lawyers on two sides in major cases, both advise their clients that they are right and that they should go to court about it. That becomes very expensive and they eventually resolve it only in the court.

As the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said, although he is confident about this provision, it is nevertheless not a silver bullet. Does he think that the advice he has been given will result over the next few months or weeks in the lawyers worrying about it? At the end of the day, will we require secondary legislation to deal with this? I hope not—I hope that the lawyers have it absolutely right this time. However, as the noble Lord said, one of the worries is the law of unintended consequences.

This is such a complex area but I like the point that my noble friend Lord Mitchell made about what happens in, I think, Canada.

[Lord Mitchell]

It was Florida.

[Lord Barnett]

In Florida, they have to register this. If it was in Canada, the new Governor of the Bank of England would have a still better idea. It may be that he still does because he seems a very bright fellow and he will know what happens in Florida. Perhaps, some time in the not too distant future, we will have something like what my noble friend Lord Mitchell quoted because that seems to me, as a non-lawyer, to be a sensible way forward. I hope that we can move that way in future. For now, it only remains for me, too, to congratulate all concerned in this matter and wish the new amendment well in the future.