(12 years ago)
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Lord Sassoon
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, in most cases the legislation places duties, powers and obligations on the Bank as an institution. The Court of Directors is responsible for managing the Bank’s affairs. In practice, the Court of Directors, in a similar way to other governing bodies, delegates the vast majority of the Bank’s day-to-day decisions to the executive, with the court itself taking only the most important strategic decisions. There are, however, some instances in the legislation where the duties, powers and obligations are placed directly on the court. For example, the court is responsible for determining the Bank’s strategy, including its financial stability strategy, and it also has the power to delegate additional functions to the FPC.
On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and I discussed whether the court would take the decision whether or not to withhold from publication a report of the oversight committee. I stated clearly that I would expect a decision of this importance to be taken by the court rather than to be delegated to the executive. However, in the light of that debate, I asked my officials to look right through the Bill again to see whether there were other key decisions for which responsibility should lie unequivocally with the court. This group of amendments is the result.
Amendments 4, 5, 6 and 7 confirm that the court will decide whether oversight committee reviews should be withheld from publication in order to protect the public interest.
Amendments 1, 12 and 26 to 31 make the same change to confer a number of other responsibilities directly on the court. These are the power to delegate additional functions to the oversight committee, responsibility for being consulted on the PRA’s strategy, and the power to appoint non-executive members to the PRA board.
Amendment 25 puts beyond all doubt that the court may not delegate any functions that are explicitly given to it in legislation. I should make it clear that this does not mean that all functions that the legislation confers on the Bank will automatically be undertaken by the executive. The court will of course retain discretion either to delegate these roles to the executive or to reserve those decisions for itself. However, I believe that these amendments provide important clarity by identifying those roles within the legislation that will be the responsibility of the court in all cases. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for having clarified some obscurities in the Bill that arose from the use of the generic term “the Bank” to refer sometimes to the court and sometimes to the executive. However, the noble Lord has just said something which has disturbed me. He said that, for clarification, when the term “Bank” is used, this does not necessarily mean the executive; it may mean the court. It seemed to me that he was acknowledging that an uncertainty remained. Perhaps I misheard. I should be very happy if I did, because the sort of clarification that he has set out is very welcome.
Lord Flight
My Lords, there is one area in this territory on which I would appreciate some clarity. The principle of returning the oversight of banks to the central Bank, which I think has been widely supported, has, to my mind, always been about the concept that the central Bank ought to be in regular contact with banks, that it ought to know what is going on and that it ought to be able to head off practices that are clearly potentially damaging to the banking system. However, I am not clear how the staff of the Bank and the staff of the PRA will interact. One would have thought that quite often it would be the staff of the Bank who were having regular dialogue with banks and learning what was going on and what might be going wrong, but it is the PRA—to some extent a sort of cuckoo plopped into the middle of the Bank of England—that essentially has the legal tasks. Therefore, we have clarification of the definitions of “Bank” and “court” but below what I call the executive level I am still not entirely clear where the staff of the Bank or the staff of the PRA will be carrying out supervisory activities.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, in response to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, the Court of Directors is the governing body of the Bank, so ultimately it is for the court to decide who takes what decisions and which decisions should be for the Bank. In the legislation, “the Bank” certainly does not mean the Bank executive; it means the Bank of England. Therefore, it is always for the Court of Directors, just as it is for the governing body of any corporate institution, to decide who takes what decisions and, if the governing body does not delegate them, it takes them itself. We are making clear through these amendments that there is a certain small category of decisions—one of which was identified by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell—that is of such importance that it is appropriate to put down for the avoidance of doubt in the legislation that it is the court not the executive that takes those decisions. That is what those amendments do.
Lord Eatwell
Just for clarity, the noble Lord said that it is the responsibility of the directors—that is, the court—to decide who takes the various decisions. I presume what he has said does not apply to the Monetary Policy Committee?
Lord Sassoon
Indeed. I should say that it is subject to what is laid down in statute about the Monetary Policy Committee and the Financial Policy Committee and so on. If they are decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee, then they are the decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee. If they are the decisions of the Bank, the court will decide how they are taken. As for the question from my noble friend Lord Flight, of course it will be the PRA staff who will supervise and lead on the direct relationships with the banks or insurance companies, for example, that are being supervised. Technically, the PRA staff will be seconded from the Bank. There will be a close working relationship, which is part of the benefit of bringing it all together under the one umbrella.
Lord Barnett
I hope I did not misunderstand, but the Minister seemed to say that all decisions of the Bank are made by the court. Does that mean that when the Governor of the Bank of England makes a policy decision, it is not his decision, but a decision of the court?
Lord Sassoon
No, my Lords, that is not what I said. I said that the court is the governing body of the Bank. So unless specified in some other way, it is ultimately the decision of the court as to whether it takes a decision or delegates it. When it comes to policy decisions of the sort that the noble Lord is describing, they are of course delegated ones. All we are trying to do in this amendment is make it clear what decisions should be taken by the court and only by the court.
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, this is a group of minor technical amendments which simply remedy some drafting glitches in a number of cross-references in the Bill and address minor drafting inconsistencies. I do not propose to go through each amendment, but will answer any questions that noble Lords might have on them.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, in response to an amendment at Report put forward by my noble friends Lady Noakes, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Kramer, we committed to come back with amendments to rebalance the FPC’s membership. These amendments are intended to do just that. They will remove the executive director responsible for market analysis from the FPC. This will shift the FPC’s balance so that it includes five Bank executives and five non-Bank executives, including four independent members. Crucially, this will retain the Bank’s majority on the FPC, as the committee’s chair will have a casting vote. As we have said previously, we believe that it is vital that the Bank remains in the majority on the FPC if we are to hold the Bank accountable for its performance. Amendments 23 and 24 reduce the FPC’s quorum from seven to six, to compensate for the smaller membership. Noble Lords will note, however, that we have retained the requirement that at least one of the external members be present in order for the committee to be quorate. These amendments again demonstrate that the Government have listened to the House and responded accordingly. When this change was discussed at Report, it was widely welcomed and in that spirit, I hope the House will support these amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Sassoon
“(2) The member appointed under subsection (1)(d) is to be a person who has executive responsibility within the Bank for the analysis of threats to financial stability.”
Lord Barnett
Lord Barnett
My Lords, the amendment relates to something originally in the Bank of England Act 1998 which should not have been there in the first place. My noble friend Lord Peston and I tried very hard for it not to be put in but failed at the time. I hope that we will be more successful today.
The words “subject to that” should never have been there in the first place. All they mean is that the Governor of the Bank of England—and we will have a new one next July—will have his hands tied fast. He must first get stability—that is, control inflation—and only then can he look at the Government’s economic policy. Frankly, I would prefer that he looked at someone else’s economic policy than that of the present Government because I am not very happy with it. However, that is how it should be: the governor should look at the Government’s economic policy—and given what we heard in the Autumn Statement, someone else certainly needs to look at the situation and at this Government’s economic policy.
The new governor may be as good as everyone says—I hope he is—but I think what he can do with the economy has been massively overstated because that is primarily the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Sadly, the present Chancellor—whose first line in the Autumn Statement should have been an apology—has said everything is marvellous. It is hard to believe that anyone could do that, but the Chancellor did it.
It would help if the new governor had at least a responsibility to look at the economy to see whether he can help the Chancellor. It would be helpful to the Government to have the words deleted and that is all I am seeking to do. I shall not take up any more of the House’s time. I beg to move.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I wish to add two or three remarks to what my noble friend Lord Barnett has said.
On any logical grounds, “equal weight” is precisely what the Government would want to see in this part of the Bill. One feels that somehow the computer got jammed and “subject to that” got stuck in all over the place for no good reason. I would be surprised if the Minister is not sympathetic to the amendment.
I wish to make two remarks in regard to the prospective governor. First, I know that he felt it was right for him to appear before the Treasury Select Committee in the other place in order that its members should know who he was. Bearing in mind the vast amount of work that noble Lords have put in to this Bill, which is devoted overwhelmingly to the Bank of England, and given that, with much regret, we will be dealing some day with a Bill about the Bank of England without the Minister being the lead figure, I would like to go on record as saying that it would be a good idea if the prospective Governor of the Bank of England appeared before your Lordships’ Economic Affairs Committee so that he could become known to us as well as to the other place.
My second remark is in favour of the prospective governor. Eyebrows have been raised that he is being paid approximately £600,000 for this job, which is a lot of money—certainly to an impoverished ex-professor. None the less, given that the prospective governor could earn between £10 million and £15 million per annum—most of which, I would guess, would end up being tax-free—someone ought to reassure him that, if anything, we are getting a bargain and he is doing us a favour rather than us doing him a favour by appointing him.
Lord Sharkey
My Lords, I support some of the sentiments, but not the amendment, of the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston. Like them, I believe it would be a good thing if Mr Carney were to appear before the Lords Economic Affairs Committee as well as the Commons Treasury Committee. Mr Carney is entirely used to dealing with bicameral legislatures with separate committees. On 30 October this year, he appeared before the Canadian House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance to discuss the October monetary policy report. The following day, he appeared before the Canadian Senate Standing Committee on Banking, Trade, and Commerce to discuss the same report.
However, since this is a suggestion from the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston, I know they would prefer me to use the word “must” rather than “may”, but it may be better to suggest to the Minister not that Mr Carney must appear before our Economic Affairs Committee but that he may want to appear. The Minister may want to suggest this to him.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I will make sure that the suggestion to Mr Carney is passed on, but of course it is breaking radical new ground that a prospective governor should appear before the Treasury Select Committee, and I do not know whether we want to be too radical at this juncture, but the point is taken.
Turning to the matter in hand, first, I have to admire the persistence, consistency and eternal optimism of the noble Lords, Lord Barnett and Lord Peston, on this matter. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Peston, but on this occasion the Treasury’s word processor did not slip a few words. There is a very important issue here, which is why the two noble Lords raise this matter on a regular basis. We debated very similar amendments to this one in Committee and on Report, although I recall that on Report the amendment was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on behalf of the noble Lords, with, let us say, a degree of enthusiasm.
The House will be unsurprised to learn that my position on this point is unchanged on the back of what I have heard this afternoon. The FPC’s primary objective must be financial stability. Financial stability is the FPC’s reason for being, its primary purpose. The aim of the committee will be to secure a safe and stable financial system, which will help create the conditions necessary for stable and sustainable economic growth. I should not rise to every bit of bait but I have to say that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done an outstanding job in extremely difficult economic circumstances, as we will discuss later this afternoon. While he is always grateful for any additional advice, we should have the FPC stick to its main task as its primary objective.
The legislation makes clear that, subject to achieving its primary objective for financial stability, the FPC should act to support the Government’s economic objectives. This structure strikes the right balance, by giving the FPC a clear and positive mandate to support economic growth, but without prejudicing its primary responsibility to protect and enhance financial stability. It is clear already, from the way that the shadow FPC is operating, that it has this mandate well on board.
The primary flaw with the structure proposed in Amendment 10—namely, to give the FPC dual, equally weighted objectives—is that this would allow the FPC to take action that would damage financial stability with the aim of encouraging growth. This would take the FPC outside its remit and expertise, and directly frustrate its primary purpose, which is financial stability. I simply do not believe that the model proposed by the noble Lords is appropriate or workable and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Barnett
I am never surprised by the noble Lord and I am certainly not surprised today. I think I heard him say that the model produced by my noble friend Lord Peston and me—we do not normally produce models, but I am very happy to do so on this occasion—would prejudice the Government’s policy. I do not know what policy of the Government needs prejudicing. At the moment, everything is going well, according to the Chancellor, and instead of apologising, as he should have done, in the first line of his Statement he said that everything is healing. Now we are told that we should give the brilliant new governor an opportunity to comment to the Chancellor on the economy—he certainly needs someone to tell him something about his policy.
How can the Minister say that the FPC would prejudice financial stability because it might go for economic growth? I have heard some arguments against what my noble friend and I have suggested for a long time, but to suggest that that is the answer that the Treasury is using is quite incredible. I wish I had heard him differently. I am very sorry indeed that that was his reply, and I simply do not accept it.
Lord Newby
“( ) The purpose of a review is—
(a) in the case of a direction, to consider whether the direction ought to be revoked, and(b) in the case of a recommendation, to consider whether the recommendation ought to be withdrawn.”
Lord Newby
My Lords, Amendment 11 responds directly to a request made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on Report. On hearing my noble friend Lord Sassoon’s explanation of the underlying purpose of the FPC’s reviews of its live actions—namely, to consider whether they are still necessary and whether they should be removed or revoked—the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, responded,
“if that is what the new section meant, why did it not say so?”.—[Official Report, 6/11/12; col. 978.]
I believe that the purpose of the reviews could have been derived implicitly from the clause as it was originally drafted. However, I accept that this could be made more explicit in the clause, and Amendment 11 seeks to do exactly that. This is a straightforward amendment, which responds directly to concerns raised in this House about the clarity of the drafting. I hope that noble Lords can support it. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I am grateful to the Government for having taken on board the fact that there was some infelicity in the drafting at this point. I am delighted to support the amendment.
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(5A) The FCA may refuse an application under subsection (5) if it appears to it that it is desirable to do so in order to advance any of its operational objectives.”
“(5A) The PRA may refuse an application under subsection (5) if it appears to it that it is desirable to do so in order to advance any of its objectives.”
Lord Sassoon
“137BA FCA general rules: cost of credit and duration of credit agreements
(1) The power of the FCA to make general rules includes power to make rules prohibiting authorised persons from—
(a) entering into a regulated credit agreement that provides for—(i) the payment by the borrower of charges of a specified description, or(ii) the payment by the borrower over the duration of the agreement of charges that, taken with the charges paid under one or more other agreements which are treated by the rules as being connected with it, exceed, or are capable of exceeding, a specified amount;(b) imposing charges of a specified description or exceeding a specified amount on a person who is the borrower under a regulated credit agreement;(c) entering into a regulated credit agreement that—(i) is capable of remaining in force after the end of a specified period, (ii) when taken with one or more other regulated credit agreements which are treated by the rules as being connected with it, would be capable of remaining in force after the end of a specified period, or(iii) is treated by the rules as being connected with a number of previous regulated credit agreements that exceeds a specified maximum;(d) exercising the rights of the lender under a regulated credit agreement (as a person for the time being entitled to exercise them) in a way that enables the agreement to remain in force after the end of a specified period or enables the imposition on the borrower of charges within paragraph (a)(i) or (ii).(2) “Charges” means charges payable, by way of interest or otherwise, in connection with the provision of credit under the regulated credit agreement, whether or not the agreement itself makes provision for them and whether or not the person to whom they are payable is a party to the regulated credit agreement or an authorised person.
(3) “The borrower” includes—
(a) any person providing a guarantee or indemnity under the regulated credit agreement, and(b) a person to whom the rights and duties of the borrower under the regulated credit agreement or a person falling within paragraph (a) have passed by assignment or operation of law.(4) In relation to an agreement entered into or obligation imposed in contravention of the rules, the rules may—
(a) provide for the agreement or obligation to be unenforceable against any person or specified person;(b) provide for the recovery of any money or other property paid or transferred under the agreement or other obligation by any person or specified person;(c) provide for the payment of compensation for any loss sustained by any person or specified person as a result of paying or transferring any money or other property under the agreement or obligation.(5) The provision that may be made as a result of subsection (4) includes provision corresponding to that made by section 30 (enforceability of agreements resulting from unlawful communications).
(6) A credit agreement is a contract of the kind mentioned in paragraph 23 of Schedule 2, other than one under which the obligation of the borrower to repay is secured on land: and a credit agreement is a “regulated credit agreement” if any of the following is a regulated activity—
(a) entering into or administering the agreement;(b) exercising or being able to exercise the rights of the lender under the agreement.(7) In this section—
(a) “specified amount” means an amount specified in or determined in accordance with the rules;(b) “specified period” means a period of a duration specified in or determined in accordance with the rules;(c) “specified person” means a person of a description specified in the rules;(d) subject to that, “specified” means specified in the rules.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, on Report I committed to bring forward a government amendment to give the FCA an effective power to make rules capping the cost and the duration of a regulated credit agreement. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for raising this on Report and to noble Lords on all sides of the House who spoke in support of the need for action against sharp practices in the payday lending industry. The Government warmly welcome the cross-party consensus that emerged on this important issue.
As I said on Report last week, the Government were fully in agreement with the intent behind the noble Lord’s amendment but felt that there were weaknesses in the way it was framed. We have made use of the time between Report and tabling this amendment at Third Reading to get this power right and ensure that it is watertight. Moreover, I also committed to going further than the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, proposed, by making additional consumer protections integral to the power.
The Government’s amendment spells out in detail the kind of rules that the FCA may make to prevent lenders from imposing excessive interest rates or associated charges on borrowers, and clarifies that the FCA would be able to specify the level of the cap in rules and also to define which charges, in addition to interest, should be captured. The amendment also allows the FCA to impose limits on the duration of the agreement, and to specify the detail of the cap and other restrictions in its rules.
Those who have compared the Government’s amendment tabled yesterday with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, will have noted that the Government’s version is significantly longer and more comprehensive in its detail. I said last week that we would take care to frame the power to prevent unscrupulous firms exploiting loopholes and to ensure that consumers were properly protected. The Government specifically ensured that this power covers associated charges to avoid unscrupulous firms “gaming” the restrictions by, for example, reducing the interest rate but introducing exorbitant fees for related services such as setting up the loan. It also specifically captures the practice of rollovers, which we have seen abused by some players in the payday loans industry. Under the amendment the FCA will have a specific power to impose a limit on the overall duration of the rolled-over agreement and a limit on the number of rollovers that are permitted.
The government amendment has also built in robust protections for consumers who fall victim to lenders’ excessive charges. First, the FCA can provide that the lender cannot enforce the agreement and the borrower is not obliged to repay the loan. Secondly, it can provide that any money or property transferred under the agreement—an item that has been pawned, say—must be returned. Thirdly, it can provide that compensation must be paid to the consumer.
Before moving on I will address briefly one provision in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, that we omitted in tabling the Government’s version: namely, a specific reference to consumer detriment or consumer protection. That is because the FCA will already be prompted to respond when it detects consumer detriment. Under Section 137A of FiSMA the FCA may make general rules only for the purposes of advancing one or more of its operational objectives. These are: securing protection for consumers, protecting and enhancing the integrity of the financial system, and promoting effective competition. As such the consumer protection objective will provide the strong underpinning mandate for the FCA to make rules under the new power that we are discussing. It is not therefore necessary to spell it out further in the Bill.
While I am confident that our amendment clarifies the FCA’s role in this important area, we must be careful not to regard this power as a silver bullet that will fix all the problems in the payday lending sector. As the OFT’s recent report into the high-cost credit market showed, it is clear that regulation of the payday lending market as a whole needs to improve. Compared to the current regulatory regime under the OFT, the FCA will have a broader and more effective toolkit to monitor and tackle developments in the market and supervise practice among firms.
Capping the cost of credit and the number of times that the loan can be rolled over is a major market intervention, and I expect the FCA to contemplate the use of this power in a responsible and measured way. I discussed the mixed picture from international evidence on Report. We must avoid at all costs any such cap resulting in catastrophically unintended consequences, such as driving vulnerable consumers to illegal loan sharks. However, as I said on Report, we need to ensure that the FCA grasps the nettle when it comes to payday lending. This amendment grants the FCA the powers to deliver effectively on its consumer-protection objective and tackle consumer detriment. It is a power that I hope all sides of the House will wish to support. I beg to move.
Lord Mitchell
My Lords, never in my wildest dreams did I ever expect that I would be standing here at the opposition Dispatch Box with my name on an amendment alongside a government Treasury Minister. It is some achievement and could occur only in your Lordships' House and not in the other place. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sassoon and Lord Newby, for the very constructive way in which they responded to the amendment we put forward. They listened to what we had to say, took our comments away and came back with an amendment that is entirely acceptable to us. However, I would not like them to think that this is a complete love fest—normal service will resume at some other time.
It is worth recounting that the Government told us in Committee that the points which we wanted were already in the Bill. We tried hard to find the location of those points—and no doubt they are buried somewhere. However, with an issue like this one, which is so important, it is dangerous to have implied rules which have to be inferred. Many of these payday loan companies have very successful lawyers and access to some of the best brains in the country in this area. The provision would have been a complete dog's breakfast, to be honest.
We tried again at Report, and I admit that I came in here today ready for battle. However, I was astonished and delighted at the complete turnaround that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, has offered. He promised us a better amendment and that is what we have been given. The new amendment is stronger, tighter and more effective, and most of all, it offers complete clarity. I would not be human if I did not savour the moment just a jot. It probably will not happen again, but it is good that it has happened today.
I have been asked why the Government conceded and no doubt at some stage, over a gin and tonic, I will find out. However, I feel that it was due to two reasons —the political argument, and the moral argument. As for the political basis, the Government knew that they would be defeated last Wednesday on Report. It had been a bad couple of weeks for the Government and another defeat was something that they could do without. The moral argument, however, was more important. I was fortunate because the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe of Idlicote and Lady Grey-Thompson, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham added a non-political independent gravitas to what we were trying to do. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate.
The media also took up this cause with a vengeance. Every article and television programme that I read or saw seemed to back our position. They were against the payday lending companies. Indeed, I am sure that the man in the street in this country was also in favour of regulation. Everybody seemed to be in favour of it except for the payday loan companies themselves—and I was nobbled in the most unlikely of locations by them or their representatives telling me how wrong we were. However, the Government conceded because the political and moral arguments were absolutely against them. They did concede and I am grateful to them for the positive way in which they have dealt with this issue.
I had two questions to ask about consumer detriment and time and duration but the Minister has addressed them in his speech. He said that there was no silver bullet for this and I absolutely agree. As we go forward perhaps we should look at what is happening in other countries. I spoke at Report about the experience in Florida, which has had an amazing result. I repeat that anyone who takes out a payday loan in that state has to register it as a charge. They have to pay for it and it goes on to a database. It is known that they have a payday loan. That absolutely prevents any individual having more than one payday loan on any one occasion. That is something that we should look at for the future.
This provision will go forward and become a new law but I believe that it will also become a statement of intent. This amendment is simple, symbolic and now stands alone. This industry is going to be controlled. For many people out there, the world is now a slightly better place.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, those of you who were present for prayers earlier this afternoon will have perhaps noted the irony with which this Prelate quoted from Psalm 15, which speaks about taking money upon usury. In rabbinic and Jewish interpretation that is interpreted as “not unreasonable” usury.
I have to express my gratitude to the Government and the Minister for this excellent amendment. I do so on behalf of the Bench that I sit upon and especially on behalf of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, who has had unfortunately to go home for urgent diocesan business, otherwise he would have been making some of the comments that I have been making. I will not go into the detail but I will make one final comment—on the way that your Lordships’ House conducts its business when we are at our best. This seems to me to be a very good example of that. We had an amendment and then rational discussion in debate at various levels—Cross-Bench, opposition, government—and then we had an excellent amendment. For that I thank the Government and all who have taken part in this important debate.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I start by congratulating my noble friend Lord Mitchell and the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, on a very great achievement. However, as everybody seems to understand the amendment in every way except for me, I have three questions in case I have misunderstood what the noble Lord said.
I read the amendment as saying that it gives the FCA the power to do all the things that we want it to do. However, I was not very clear whether he was then saying that, under its consumer protection mandate, it follows immediately that it must exercise that power. This is our favourite “may” and “must” question. You can give someone power but they may not use it. However, am I right in understanding that this amendment, coupled with the whole of the rest of the remit for the FCA, essentially means that it will now have to go into this field and deal with it in the way suggested, or is it still up to it whether it bothers with it? I would like the answer to that question.
The second question we had—if we recall our little debate on this last week—was on the concept of transparency. The great reason why this is a racket is of course that the average consumer/borrower who is not an expert in this field does not know until he has signed up what he is signing up for. Am I right in assuming that this amendment will make sure that the one thing that would happen as a result of this—do not let us worry for the moment about bankruptcy and all that for these firms—is that consumers will definitely know what they are letting themselves in for? Certainly my attempt to look up at least one site on this showed that you do not get to what you are letting yourself in for until you are virtually locked in. Am I right that this amendment is both transparent in general and also transparent with regard to what you have let yourself in for?
I do not say this in a negative way in terms of saying we do not want this; this is a tremendous achievement. I am looking for a bit of enlightenment to make sure that I understand what it means.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, perhaps I may add to what my noble friend Lord Peston has said. I will not repeat the may/must argument; it has been well enough made, and I hope that we will get a reply from the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. Incidentally, in congratulating my noble friend Lord Mitchell, perhaps it is right that I should also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. This may be our last exchange before he retires.
The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, mentioned the assumption that the FCA will now have the powers to deal with these unscrupulous people regarding payday loan schemes. As my noble friend Lord Mitchell said, they will have lots of good lawyers because when people have many profits to defend, as they do, they tend to use lots of lawyers. While I am not a lawyer, I hope that the noble Lord’s lawyers have indeed drafted this correctly. I know that these things can never be done tightly enough and that once lawyers get involved it finishes up in the courts for somebody else to decide. That is bound to happen and I am not blaming the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, or his legal advisers for it. In my experience, when court actions involve lawyers on two sides in major cases, both advise their clients that they are right and that they should go to court about it. That becomes very expensive and they eventually resolve it only in the court.
As the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said, although he is confident about this provision, it is nevertheless not a silver bullet. Does he think that the advice he has been given will result over the next few months or weeks in the lawyers worrying about it? At the end of the day, will we require secondary legislation to deal with this? I hope not—I hope that the lawyers have it absolutely right this time. However, as the noble Lord said, one of the worries is the law of unintended consequences.
This is such a complex area but I like the point that my noble friend Lord Mitchell made about what happens in, I think, Canada.
Lord Barnett
In Florida, they have to register this. If it was in Canada, the new Governor of the Bank of England would have a still better idea. It may be that he still does because he seems a very bright fellow and he will know what happens in Florida. Perhaps, some time in the not too distant future, we will have something like what my noble friend Lord Mitchell quoted because that seems to me, as a non-lawyer, to be a sensible way forward. I hope that we can move that way in future. For now, it only remains for me, too, to congratulate all concerned in this matter and wish the new amendment well in the future.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, the Government and others in the House on passing this Act because in terms of consumer protection in Acts, the wheels turn very slowly. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 was only superseded because of a lot of effort by quite a number of us in the other place in getting another Consumer Credit Act in 2006, 32 years later. At a time when we have the internet and technology has increased enormously, that means that the imbalance between the consumer and the industry gets even steeper, so I welcome this amendment today and the efforts that have been put into it.
In particular, I congratulate the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, as he departs the Front Bench. He deserves our hearty congratulations because for years we have listened to the plea, “Let the market work”. What happens when we let the market work, to be euphemistic, is that innovation takes over and innovation, as the Minister says, equates to sharp practices. Once we pass this in the House today, it will be going out into the cold light of day and I can tell everyone in the House that innovation will take place and we therefore have to be on our guard.
This is but a first step but it is a huge first step. In line with the comments made by other Peers, I ask the Minister for clarification on these points. First, will the new clause cover all costs and charges levied by payday lenders or borrowers? Secondly, when will it come into force? A number of us are worried that we could be waiting for a long time before it is brought in and that, in the interim, the sharp practices will continue. Lastly, how do the Government envisage the cap being set and does the Minister have in mind at what level he expects that cap to be set? It is important to give some direction to the FCA in today’s debate. My last word to the Minister is to offer my congratulations as a new life beckons in front of him, which I hope is just as prosperous.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I had not intended to say anything today, because I was pleased with the amendment. The more I listened to the explanation, however, the more enthusiastic I became about it. So I wanted to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for all that he has done here, as well as to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and everybody else who has been involved in the redrafting. I am sure it will not solve all the problems. I would also like to ask when it will come into force; I imagine that it will not be all that far ahead. Nevertheless, as has been said, it is an extremely important and valuable step in the right direction.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am grateful for all those contributions. I will briefly respond to some of the specific questions. First, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked whether this means that the FCA has to go into this field. Absolutely it does; it would have to anyway. Putting all this in the Bill will concentrate the FCA’s mind wonderfully. However, as the noble Lord knows, it is an enabling power; the FCA may make these rules, but this does not say that it must make them.
On the noble Lord’s other questions about whether consumers know what they are letting themselves in for, this is one of the other areas that clearly needs attention, as I indicated in my opening remarks. Whether this is addressed under the consumer credit directive or the consumer protection regulations, it is another parallel area. I stress again that we are getting to the heart of the issue in this amendment, but this is not the sum total of it.
There were also questions about when the rules might come in. The rules will come in when the FCA gets round to making them. There is nothing to stop the OFT moving ahead. The next thing we are expecting is the academic report, which refers in some detail to the international evidence about the pros and cons of caps. That will be part of the evidence base that will be used, building up to any rules that may or may not be put in place. However, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that there is no question of secondary legislation here. We are giving the FCA a clear rule-making power; its rule-making procedures will then go for consultation, but this does not need to come back through the channel of secondary legislation.
Lastly, I turn to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith. In parenthesis, I would argue that there have certainly been financial innovations that have been beneficial, but perhaps we will leave that debate for another day. The noble Lord asked whether all costs and charges would be covered. Yes, they will—all of them. He asked when this comes into force. This specific power comes into force in April 2014, when credit becomes a regulated activity under the FCA. Of course, that will not stop the Government and the OFT looking at what may need to be done before then, but we are talking about a Bill that relates in this instance to the powers of the FCA when they are transferred over. As far as what the cap should be, that will be a matter for the FCA. It is a very difficult question that will need careful thought. As I have already indicated, the Bristol study, which is coming out very soon, will be an important contribution to that thinking. We are putting an important building block in place today, but it is not the only building block in this area.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I do not want to push my luck too much with the Minister, but he says that the rules will come in as and when the FCA decides, and that is 2014. We have a bit of time before then. Given that there is urgency regarding the adoption of this clause and all-party agreement about it, it would be good if he could elaborate on those comments so that he sends a message from here today to the industry and the regulators that this is a matter of urgency and that Parliament wishes to see early action on this matter. We do not want to wait until mid-2014. Just to add icing to the cake, will he please elaborate?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am sure that the industry has got the message loud and clear from this House that more needs to be done. Of course, it need not wait until April 2014; there are plenty of other things that can be done in the mean time if appropriate.
Lord Sassoon
“(a) rules made by the FCA under section 137BA, or”
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
My Lords, last week on Report my noble friend Lord Sassoon signalled that the Government were minded to bring forward amendments at Third Reading to address some of the concerns that have been raised by the industry regarding the proposal to confer on the Bank of England an additional power of direction over clearing houses. This group of amendments reflects those concerns.
First, the amendments will require the Bank to be satisfied that any direction made under the power is necessary, having regard to the specified public interest criteria, rather than simply desirable. Secondly, they will put it beyond doubt that this additional power of direction will not be available in instances where the desired direction could be given under the Bank’s existing power of direction under Section 296 of FiSMA. Thirdly, the Bank, in instances where it gives a direction under this power without giving the recipient prior notice, will be required to explain to the recipient after the direction has been given why the direction was given, and why no prior notice of it was given. I should also make it clear that any justification given pursuant to this requirement will be given to the clearing house directly, will not be published and will not divulge sensitive information that might harm the public interest. Fourthly, these amendments will give effect to the assurance that we have already given the House that the additional power of direction could not be used to compel a clearing house to accept the business of a competitor. The amendments will provide greater certainty to clearing houses regarding the circumstances in which the additional power of direction could be used.
To alleviate any remaining doubts from industry, I repeat the assurance that my noble friend has previously given the House: the power of direction relates only to the recognised clearing house itself. The Bank of England cannot use the power of direction to require shareholders, members or clients to recapitalise or otherwise fund a failing recognised clearing house, with one exception: where the UK clearing house already has recapitalisation arrangements and agreements in place with its shareholders. In this instance the Bank of England could use the power to direct the clearing house to enforce those arrangements, provided that the necessary conditions and safeguards were met. Furthermore, this power cannot be used retrospectively.
The Bank of England also expects to publish a supervisory approach document in the coming weeks. This will give further information on how powers of direction will fit within its wider supervisory powers over recognised clearing houses. I beg to move.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico
I, too, am supporting a government amendment, though one that is not nearly as dramatic as that secured by my noble friend Lord Mitchell, whom I congratulate very much not only on doing it but on the thoroughness of his research. He actually took out a loan with one of these companies, an act of true heroism that I hope will not result in his being deluged with peculiar financial products for the rest of his life.
In welcoming this amendment, I remind the House once again that I am a non-executive director of the London Stock Exchange. I very much welcome the Government’s amendments to the powers of direction and the spirit of engagement that HM Treasury and the Bank have offered in dialogue on these matters, and which I know the industry will look to continue. The amendments provide useful further context for the use of the power. They put it mostly outside the scope of a day-to-day power, and reassure us that it will be used only when it is reasonably necessary to do so.
That said, it would be very helpful if the Minister were able to offer any further thinking on the circumstances in which it is envisaged that this power would be used, and took this opportunity to give us his vision for co-operation between HM Treasury, the FCA and the PRA in advising on the powers. All relevant authorities, particularly the Financial Conduct Authority as the market regulator, will need to consider the wider market impact of any proposed direction by the Bank.
Finally, the announcement that the Bank will be consulting on its supervisory approach before the end of the year is very good news. That will be an excellent opportunity for it to explain the intended circumstances under which the Section 296A power would be used, and more generally, I hope, to give an account of the Bank’s approach to capital requirements for clearing houses.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I rise with a question for clarification for the Minister. Is the net effect of this amendment to make it clear that the owners of the platform that is clearing derivatives—one of the central clearing platforms—are exposed only to the extent of the loss allocation that is defined in their membership agreement; and that, beyond that, the Government will not, in case of a failing platform, force other platforms to take on open, out-of-the-money contracts? If that is so, is the Minister in effect saying that the backstop for the collapse of an exchange is effectively the taxpayer? I ask that not in criticism, but for the sake of absolute clarity.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of ICE Clear Europe, and I warmly welcome this extremely valuable amendment. It seems to go wider; noble Lords may think that it is a narrow amendment, but they have no idea what a sense of confidence it has given to the City at this time. I regard that as very important.
During the 1970s, we generally regarded the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as having the function of managing orderly retreat. Now we have absolute confidence that within the Treasury there is a very clear understanding that it will look after the best interests of the City of London and the pre-eminence of the City. It is a difficult task and I do not underestimate how important that is. The amendment is to be warmly welcomed. Noble Lords may think that it is minor, but it does a great deal more than simply to change the position of the clearing house and the direction.
I have one simple question, and I will not be worried in the least if the Minister slaps me down. Amendment 20 says,
“to accept a transfer of property, rights or liabilities of another clearing house”.
Does that refer only to a clearing house that still operates as a going concern? Frankly, I would regard that as unlikely. It is much more likely that the Bank of England would want to intervene at a point when it was in administration or in the process of liquidation. If I am told that that line encompasses all those particular circumstances, I will be more than happy to be told to shut up.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, perhaps I may simply elaborate a little on the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. Given that there is not to be a transfer of obligations between platforms, and given that the collapse of a platform could impose significant systemic risk on the economy with a large number of unclear positions, are we to understand that the lender of last resort will be required to stand behind a collapsed platform?
Lord Myners
Perhaps I may also ask a question following that of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. The concept of interoperability is very important in the clearing of derivatives, so that corporates in particular can offset a position with one platform where they have a credit with another platform where they have a deficit. Will the Minister clarify that that involves a degree of mutualisation in the event of a failure of a platform because the failure of that platform will transfer to other platforms?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the warm welcome that these amendments have received from across the House. I will deal with some of the specific questions that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, asked about my vision for the way in which this provision would be used and how I saw the co-operation between the Bank, HM Treasury, the FCA and the PRA.
It may be marginally less than a vision but the situation would be that there is no requirement for the Bank to consult HMT or the other regulators before using the additional power of direction. This is because the additional power of direction is a supervisory tool and, as such, should not require the express permission of HMT before it is used. As I am sure noble Lords would agree, it is not necessary for regulators to consult with HMT before acting on day-to-day supervisory measures. It is also consistent with the similarly broad powers that the FSA currently has to vary permissions in the banking sector.
As for how the Bank intends to use its powers, as I said in my speech, it expects to publish a supervisory approach document in the coming week. Its purpose will be to give further information on how the powers of direction will fit within its wider supervisory powers over recognised clearing houses.
My noble friend Lady Kramer asked a number of questions about where the liabilities would lie and she set out her understanding of where they were. I can confirm that her view of where the powers lie is correct. As a final question, she asked about a backstop power and whether public funds were the backstop. That, of course, is the de facto position today. With this provision, we are seeking to put in place arrangements and resolution arrangements that would greatly reduce the likelihood of public funds being called upon by demonstrating in advance how these issues would be dealt with. I realise that that is a contentious statement because a number of noble Lords will no doubt think that it is extremely difficult to achieve that. Whether it is easy or difficult, that is what we are seeking to achieve by these powers and what the Bank will be trying to achieve.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, asked about going concerns or not-going concerns. The clause refers to a clearing house. It does not matter if the clearing house is no longer a regulated going concern, as I suspect he expected me to say.
The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, followed up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said. Perhaps the only additional comment I should make is that these powers now go beyond any resolution powers of which we are aware elsewhere in the EU, and they are part of our drive to ensure that London is the safest place—in the EU, at least, if not globally—to do financial services business.
The noble Lord, Lord Myners, asked me an extremely interesting question, which was also extremely technical. I hope he will not mind if I write to him about it. I beg to move.
Lord Sassoon
“(2A) The direction may not require the clearing house—
(a) to take any steps for the purpose of securing its compliance with—(i) the recognition requirements, or(ii) any obligation of a kind mentioned in section 296(1)(b) or (1A), or(b) to accept a transfer of property, rights or liabilities of another clearing house.(2B) If the direction is given in reliance on section 298(7) the Bank must, within a reasonable time of giving the direction, give the clearing house a statement of its reasons—
(a) for giving the direction, and(b) for relying on section 298(7).”
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“( ) In paragraph 11—
(a) the existing provision becomes sub-paragraph (1),(b) in sub-paragraph (1)(b), for “servant” substitute “employee”,(c) in sub-paragraph (1)(c)(ii), for “servants” substitute “employees”, and(d) after sub-paragraph (1) insert—“(2) The duties and powers that may be delegated under this paragraph do not include duties and powers that are by any enactment expressly imposed or conferred on the court of directors.””
Lord Sassoon
Lord Sassoon
“(b) after subsection (5) insert—“(5A) “The appropriate regulator”—(a) in relation to a controlled function which is of a description specified in rules made by the FCA, means the FCA, and (b) in relation to a controlled function which is of a description specified in rules made by the PRA, means the PRA.”, and(c) in subsection (6), after “Any” insert “other”.”
Lord Sassoon
(d) a decision under section 391(1)(c) to publish information about the matter to which a warning notice relates.”
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, Amendments 33 and 34 concern the new power provided for by this Bill for the regulators to disclose the fact that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued. We have of course already discussed this new power and the safeguards to which it should be subject in quite some detail. I am speaking to these two amendments again only because, as a result of being erroneously assigned on the day’s Order Paper, they were not moved on Report on 26 November. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for being the first to spot this. So to be absolutely clear, these are simply Amendments 97ZA and 97ZB—as they were—retabled from the Report stage.
To remind your Lordships briefly, Amendment 33 brings the decision to disclose the fact that a disciplinary warning notice has been issued into the list of matters subject to the procedures set out in Section 395 of FiSMA. Amendment 34 sets out the criteria with which the process for deciding to disclose a warning notice must comply, noting that the decision must be taken either by a person other than the person by whom the decision was first proposed, or by two or more persons not including the person by whom the decision was first proposed.
The amendments secure the involvement of the Regulatory Decisions Committee, or an equivalent body for decisions, to disclose the fact that warning notices have been issued. It is a proposal that the House supported and endorsed when we debated it last week.
This group of amendments may be the penultimate time that I will speak on the Bill during its passage through this House. With this in mind, perhaps noble Lords will permit me to conclude this debate by reflecting a little on the past months since our lively Second Reading debate on 11 June. It was so long ago that the England football team was still in the European Championship and preparing to play France as we were kicking off our consideration of the Bill. Of one thing we can be certain: the performance of this House on this Bill was rather better, I regret to say, than the performance of the England football team.
I believe that the Bill that we are sending back to another place is greatly improved from the Bill that we debated at Second Reading in June. That is due to the very constructive contributions and engagement from noble Lords right across the House, not least from the Bishops’ Benches, and I pay tribute to all who have contributed to those debates. No other legislative house in the world could have brought to bear such expertise in financial services and their regulation as this House has on this Financial Services Bill.
As I need to keep my closing remarks brief, I can only apologise for not naming individually the many noble Lords who have made important contributions to our debates. However, I would like to thank the opposition Front Bench—too many of them to name—led so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. They have shown real tenacity and skill in their contributions. We have not always agreed with the points that they have made, but I have always valued those points and would like to thank them for their constructive and thoughtful approach throughout.
I thank, too, my noble friends Lord Newby and Lord De Mauley for the support they have given me, not least in calming down the House when it seems to have got rather excited by some of my contributions. This has been a long Bill, and it would not have been possible to provide the level of response that the House has rightly demanded without the able assistance of my noble friends.
I should also mention and thank the Bill team, which has worked continuously to provide support to the House throughout the stages of this Bill. It has done an outstanding job, which has been widely and rightly acknowledged. The excellent work of the parliamentary counsel in drafting the Bill and the subsequent many amendments to it deserves special praise.
I believe that we have significantly improved this important Bill in key areas. We have enhanced the governance of the Bank of England; given economic growth a higher priority in the new regime, for the FPC, FCA and PRA; significantly improved the robustness of the UK financial system by bringing investment firms, recognised clearing houses and holding companies within the special resolution regime; responded to industry concerns, in particular over the new warning notice power; offered consumers better protection, particularly in relation to payday loans; and, in the LIBOR clauses, moved swiftly to tackle the shameful behaviour of some in the industry.
The Government have listened carefully to the views of noble Lords and the amended Bill reflects many of the concerns of this House. The Bill will be an important addition to the statute book, and one that has been greatly improved thanks to your Lordships’ expertise. I beg to move.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I rise not with respect to the amendment but to reflect on the latter comments of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. As he said, the Bill began its somewhat laborious journey with its First Reading back in May. The process has been extraordinarily laborious considering that it was a politically non-contentious Bill. We should perhaps learn some lessons from this. The main lesson is that, if there is pre-legislative scrutiny, a valuable process that we introduced, more notice should be taken of the conclusions of that scrutiny than is evident in the Bill before us. I refer particularly to the advice from the Treasury Select Committee that a new Bill be drafted rather than that we rely on the complex structure of amendments to prior legislation that we have had to wade through over the past several months.
Given the weighty nature of the work that we have had to deal with, it is appropriate to thank those who have been involved with the Bill. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to my noble friends Lady Hayter, Lord Davies, Lord Stevenson and Lord Tunnicliffe. I also thank Mr Whiting and the Bill team, who have been helpful and courteous throughout, and the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, for dealing with often complex matters and, occasionally, defending the indefensible with his usual good humour. Finally, in thanking individuals, I must thank Miss Jessica Levy, our talented and all-knowing researcher.
Effective regulation at the macro and micro level of systemic risks and the risks associated with individual firms is in the interests of households and industry and is essential for the success of the UK financial services industry. Therefore, we on this side wish this Bill well. I hope that the measures over which we have laboured will prove a success.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I cannot let the Bill pass without saying a few words. I described the Bill as “shambolic” and was told by an old friend—a normally good friend who happens to be a former Conservative Cabinet Minister—that he was surprised that I was so political in using that unusual expression. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and the House. I could not think of a better word to describe what was in the Bill and what had happened.
My main concern with the Bill is the very principle of giving such huge powers to the Bank of England—and they remain. It is the principle that worries me. We have given huge powers to the Bank of England. We have added to the Bank of England Act, as I mentioned earlier today. We have given the Bank powers over the OFT, FCA, FSA and PRA, and over changes in FiSMA—so many different initials that one forgets precisely what we did do. We amended a lot because there was a lot to amend, because unfortunately these days, under both Governments, the House of Commons guillotines so much that very little gets done properly. Legislation comes to this House for amendment and we amend it well, I am happy to say, as we did on this occasion.
My worry is that we started off with an unusually large Bill: two volumes of clauses and schedules. It was so big and it has become even bigger because we put in provisions dealing with the LIBOR scandal. This should have been a Bill on its own. We on this side of the House rightly agreed with the changes resulting from the Government’s acceptance of the Wheatley report. These provisions dealt with it properly and the Opposition accepted them, but they did not just come forward in a Bill; they came forward scattered in amendments throughout the Bill. I hope that it deals with the LIBOR scandal but it is difficult to tell if it really did, because on top of all this we are now told that there will be secondary legislation as well. I regret to say that we do not understand what we have passed here, because we still do not know what is going to happen.
I hope that we have done the right thing and that everything is going to work out, but the plain fact is that, with the LIBOR scandal, there were some in the Bank of England, the FSA and many other bodies whose main concern was primarily with interest rates. They knew nothing whatever about what the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon—I nearly said “my noble friend Lord Sassoon”; I feel he is that—was talking about. He described this LIBOR scandal as a global one, affecting some $300 trillion. It affected all that, but nobody in the Bank of England or the FSA or anybody else knew the slightest thing that was going on in the LIBOR scandal. Therefore, I would like to finish by asking the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, a question.
Lord Barnett
I understand that I must not do that, so I will mention the question that I would have asked him. There are going to be investigations into the LIBOR scandal. Will they include looking in detail at whether there is anybody else liable or culpable in this regard? It clearly is a scandal of its own to say that nobody knew anything about it. I will leave it at that. I hope that the Government will produce sensible secondary legislation in the way we hope when we pass this Bill.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I will make a brief personal remark to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, who I believe is about to retire as a Minister after the passage of the Bill. My words are those that David Ricardo wrote to Thomas Malthus in the very last letter he wrote to him:
“And now, my dear Malthus, I have done. Like other disputants, after much discussion we each retain our own opinions. These discussions, however, never influence our friendship; I should not like you more than I do if you agreed in opinion with me”.
I hope that he will accept that message.
Lord Newby
(a) a decision falling within any of paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1) is taken—(i) by a person not directly involved in establishing the evidence on which the decision is based, or(ii) by 2 or more persons who include a person not directly involved in establishing that evidence,(b) a decision falling within paragraph (d) of subsection (1) is taken— (i) by a person other than the person by whom the decision was first proposed, or(ii) by 2 or more persons not including the person by whom the decision was first proposed, and(c) a decision falling within paragraph (d) of subsection (1) is taken in accordance with a procedure which is, as far as possible, the same as that applicable to a decision which gives rise to an obligation to give a warning notice and which falls within paragraph (b) or (c) of subsection (1).””
Lord Newby
Lord Newby
Lord Newby