Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when the Secretary of State for Scotland expects to meet with the new First Minister of Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

First, I offer my congratulations to Humza Yousaf on his appointment as First Minister of Scotland, having won the SNP leadership contest on a very close 52%-48% result with Kate Forbes.

On the Question, I know that the Secretary of State for Scotland and Prime Minister will be pleased to meet the First Minister in due course. Indeed, the UK Government remain committed to working constructively with the Scottish Government to handle the challenges that we both face. The Secretary of State for Scotland has been on record as saying that this is an excellent opportunity to press the reset button and make devolution work in Scotland, by the Scottish Government focusing on devolved matters and allowing the UK Government to focus on reserved matters. Perhaps I may make so bold as to ask the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, what his first agenda item would be in that first meeting with the new First Minister.

[Lord Haskel (Lab)]

Tell him!

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I will. I also send my congratulations to Humza Yousaf on taking over what I am afraid he is going to find is a poisoned chalice. When the Secretary of State meets the First Minister, will he say quite clearly to him that, if he is genuine and sincere in wanting to co-operate constructively with the UK Government, they should get round the table and find an agreed way forward on gender reform and container recycling that is applicable for the whole United Kingdom? Those are my first two priorities—instead of expensive legal action paid for by the UK taxpayer, which will benefit only the lawyers and extreme separatists.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that very succinct agenda item, and that is exactly what is going to be addressed. The people of Scotland have two Governments, the UK Government and the Scottish Government, and there is very clear demarcation between the two as to how to make lives better. We have some very good examples of where we work very well together—in delivering freeports, city deals and investment zones—but there are some areas where we are in conflict, because we need the Scottish Government to recognise the unitary nature of the United Kingdom. We have come out of Europe and have a single market—they understand the single market very well—in the UK. That means that certain things are done on a unitary basis, whether it is that we drive on the left-hand side of the road or keep the same currency. But we also want common gender—we want to protect our trans community. People should not be designated a male in one country and a female in another. On trade that crosses borders, we do not want to have any borders for our trade, so a deposit return scheme that results in English craft beer manufacturers putting on their labels “Not for sale in Scotland” is not exactly the way forward for the United Kingdom. I would suggest that that would be the first topic on the agenda.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

I extend my congratulations to Humza Yousaf. Can my noble friend confirm that the Secretary of State for Scotland in early discussions with the new First Minister will discuss the expansion and refurbishment of the nuclear fleet? Will he confirm that that will entail added jobs and the expansion of Faslane in Scotland?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for bringing attention to one of the key reserved areas that makes the United Kingdom strong—that is, defence. That is another situation where we are stronger together; that covers 68 million citizens. I was born on the Clyde and know it very well, and grew up opposite Faslane, which is a beacon of excellence in this country and of security around the world. It is absolutely central to the defence of the United Kingdom, and we will be at pains to put that to the First Minister in any meeting.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, on the point of “stronger together”, does the Minister see irony in the fact that, in the middle of the last century, the UK partitioned the subcontinent and, today, someone of subcontinent heritage is seeking to partition the United Kingdom, with equally problematic results?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

It is an interesting quirk of history brought up by the noble Lord, but it demonstrates the diversity of this country and the great strength that we have. We must again congratulate Humza Yousaf on being the first Muslim First Minister of Scotland.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

I think everybody would hope that the relationship between the UK and Scottish Government could be constructive and I congratulate Humza Yousaf. I understand that there has been a courteous exchange between him and the Prime Minister. Would not it be helpful if both the UK and Scottish Governments acknowledged that their nationalist ideologies have proved deeply divisive in the UK and Scotland respectively, and that what people actually want are Governments who will focus on the crisis that they have created in the cost of living, energy, the health service and education? What we want is government for the people and no more nationalist ideology.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to call on the Scottish Government to focus on the people’s priorities. That came across very strongly in the SNP election, where it turned out that, as far as audiences are concerned, independence is way down their list of priorities. In fact, Kate Forbes, who had 48% of the vote, made it clear that continuity would not cut it. She acknowledged that the UK position is that there is no sustained majority for independence in Scotland. It was therefore rather disappointing, I have to say, to hear that in the first exchange between the First Minister and the Prime Minister yet again Section 30 was brought up. It is old tapes that we do not need to hear again. The Supreme Court has already opined on it and the UK Government’s position will not change.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend advise the Secretary of State that, in congratulating Mr Yousaf on his election, he should urge a fresh start and, therefore, it is very important that the current inquiries by the police that have been going on for rather a long time into the finances of the SNP should be concluded? There are far too many rumours, which are greatly damaging to our public life.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this topic, which is talked about a lot north of the border. It is a running saga that needs to be concluded. My understanding is that investigations are under way and that the process will continue as soon as possible.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, the imprecision of the replies that we have heard indicates how poorly prepared the Government are to implicitly embrace devolution in the processes of government. We would have heard similar remarks if we had been hearing about the Secretary of State for Wales in his connection with the British Government. Are we not in danger of the Conservative and Unionist Party turning into the “English National Party”?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, but I violently disagree with that—or maybe not violently, but I certainly disagree with it. Devolution gives Scotland the most amount of government anywhere in the world. It is a unique system of governance that allows it to have the benefit of two Governments: the UK Government for reserved matters and the Scottish Government for devolved matters. It is very simple—it is one piece of paper, with “reserved” on the left-hand side and “devolved” on the right-hand side. We must have a Government in Scotland who are prepared to work within that and to make devolution work, instead of straying into areas of reserved matters and trying to find conflict with the UK Government. If we work together, we can turbocharge Scotland.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that the biggest trade that the Scots have is with England? There are some circumstances in which co-operation can be of greater benefit than competition.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. Some 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. We talk to businesses regularly, which say that they do not recognise borders. The last thing that they want is a hard border on this island. Scottish businesses want access to that market, and we would encourage the Scottish Government to respect that.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, may I caution the Minister and the Government against any triumphalism? The case against independence must continue to be made on its merits and not for the embarrassment of the SNP.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is exactly the point that Kate Forbes was putting across. To take the nationalist movement so far, Alex Salmond moved it from 30% to 45%, and he was entitled to say that his successor, Nicola Sturgeon, might have moved it from 45% to 60% but singularly failed in eight years. The point that Kate Forbes was making is that if it takes longer then so be it, but if you make the case for a prosperous Scotland then you can perhaps have that more fully answered.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is clear from the questions and answers today that this House is committed to the United Kingdom, with Scotland remaining a central part of it. May I bring the Minister back to the answer that he gave to my noble friend Lord Foulkes? The Minister was clear about how important the two issues of gender reform and container recycling were to the integrity of the UK. However, when he was asked when discussions would take place, he was a bit “Yes Minister” about it, I have to say. It was “in due course”, which sounds a bit like “in the fullness of time” and “as resources allow”. Does he recognise how important these issues are and can he give any timescale for when the First Minister will have meetings with the Prime Minister and Secretary of State? These issues cannot be allowed to fester any longer.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. The issue we have is that those are both Scottish Bills. The great thing about devolution is that the Scottish Government are empowered to make their own Bills and send them for assent here. It is not for the UK Government to interfere in Scottish Government decision-making, so if their Bills do not meet competency or cannot achieve Royal Assent, it is up to the Scottish Government to amend them. We have said that we will be very happy to consult them on that process, but these are their Bills that they must amend.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Offord of Garvel on 7 December 2022 (HL Deb col 171), whether they have received a report from the Cabinet Secretary on ultra vires expenditure by the Scottish Government; and what steps they are taking in respect of this matter.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will agree with me that the people of Scotland want their two Governments to work and to concentrate all their attention and resources on the issues that matter most to them. That is why this Government are focused on tackling the cost of living by halving inflation and growing our economy. I hope the new First Minister will have the same ambitions and work constructively with us to deliver for the people of Scotland, with the Scottish Government focusing on devolved matters and allowing the UK Government to focus on reserved matters.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I do agree with the Minister, but does the Minister agree with me that there is outrage in Scotland at the Scottish Government spending an increasing amount of money on reserved areas? I know he shares that concern, but he and the Secretary of State are the only ones who can do anything about it. Could he and the Secretary of State consider some arrangement for monitoring the expenditure of the Scottish Government, to make sure that all of it is spent on devolved areas, which are in great need of expenditure?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Well, I know that the noble Lord is dogmatic on this point, and we agree on many things. He is absolutely right to say that people in Scotland are absolutely focused on this matter as well. I would like to report that, since we last had this discussion, there have been, as there always have, discussions between the Cabinet Secretary and the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary. Therefore, issues and concerns have been raised to ensure the independence of the Civil Service. The noble Lord will be pleased to note, for example, that since he last raised this issue, the Scottish Government have reallocated £20 million they had set aside for an independence referendum to their fuel insecurity fund, which is a move I think we both welcome. Furthermore, the leading candidate in the SNP leadership election has just indicated that there will be a pause to any further independence papers—on the grounds that nobody reads them. Lastly, I can confirm that the Secretary of State for Scotland has met with the Foreign Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s activities internationally. Both are very clear that any overseas engagements by the Scottish Government should not encroach on reserved matters, and this will be kept under close review.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend not concerned that the police investigation into the financial conduct of the Scottish National Party, in particular the money raised for a referendum, is taking such a long time?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is correct to point out this recent development, and the police have now indicated that they are taking evidence from witnesses under caution. That procedure needs to be allowed to run its course. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but hopefully they grind fine.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, it may be reasonable for the Scottish Government to have overseas representations to promote trade, investment and tourism, but is it not worth reminding them and indeed the wider Scottish public that the UK has an extensive network of high commissions, embassies and consulates which do exactly that for all regions of the UK, including Scotland, and all the citizens of the UK? Are the Government satisfied that, when Scottish Ministers are abroad and they avail themselves of UK diplomatic facilities, they do not do so to promote separatism and the disintegration of the United Kingdom, a role for which they have no legitimacy?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Yes, foreign affairs are a reserved matter under Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 and are therefore the sole responsibility of the UK Government and UK Parliament. However, the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations are entitled to conduct some international activity in support of their own devolved responsibilities, such as promotion of cultural exchanges and events, which they often do within the embassy network we have throughout the world. The Scotland Act is clear that foreign affairs are outside the competence of the Scottish Government and therefore they cannot and should not encroach into matters such as separatism or the constitution. We are aware that they have been doing that in recent times. As I just reported to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the Secretary of State for Scotland has met with the Foreign Secretary and that will be very closely monitored in future.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Scottish Government are obsessed with a referendum because they do not want to fight an election on their past record in public service.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

What is emerging from this very interesting leadership debate—what the newspapers are now calling civil war in the Scottish National Party—is that the obsession with independence has got in the way of their running a competent government to focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland. It might be worth noting that they have been in power for 15 years and during the first seven, First Minister Alex Salmond did manage to move the vote from 30% to 45%, but the second First Minister has actually gone backwards. What is now being debated in this leadership campaign is the need to focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland and get away from this independence obsession.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I do not quite know how this Question got on to Scottish foreign policy. Will my noble friend bear in mind that although foreign policy is a reserved matter and not devolved, the Scottish international footprint is colossal and its influence very great? I think there is some justification in the feeling that Scotland has not in the past had adequate consultation and co-operation with foreign policy-making here in London. Will he therefore remind his colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office that they should take full account of the power of the Scottish imprint and its influence on the international scene in promoting the United Kingdom generally?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for pointing that out. The Scottish diaspora is large and international, but international engagement is mostly focused on trade and is done by the Department for Business and Trade. Trade is a reserved matter, but it is also legitimate for Scottish companies to promote their activities internationally, along with the cultural aspect we have talked about. They can legitimately do that within the machinery of the UK Government, and we must allow them to continue to do so. We are just making sure that we do not have a separatist agenda being promoted to countries that I have to remind that the United Kingdom is still united.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the Scottish Administration are embarking on courses of action that are not only clearly ultra vires, but which have grievous implications for the rest of the United Kingdom. Indeed, one of them has already been questioned and opposed by the Prime Minister, quite correctly, but they continue to do so. Has the Minister had a chance to look at this daft bottle deposit scheme? Given that all three candidates for the SNP leadership, whatever we may think of them, have criticised that scheme—indeed, Kate Forbes has described its effect on the British retail industry as “carnage”—are the Government intending to allow that to go through or are they waiting for the SNP to ditch yet another policy?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

This is one of a number of Bills coming down the track that we need to monitor quite carefully. We have already had the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, in respect of which we have pressed the Section 35 button—for the first time in 437 Bills—and now we have the bottle deposit scheme. The UK Government received notification of a formal exemption to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act on 6 March, whereas producers were given a deadline of 1 March to sign up for the scheme. That feels to me like building a house first and then applying for planning permission. What we need to do is emphasise the importance of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act. Whether you like Brexit or not, we were previously in a single market of 28 European states and we are now in a single market of the four countries of the UK. What all our businesses say to us is that they do not recognise borders, and given that 60% of Scotland’s trade is with England, we do not want different terms of trade in Scotland and in England. There are a number of things coming down the track in respect of which we have to remind ourselves that certain things are done better as one United Kingdom.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, far be it from me to pass judgment on the expenditure patterns of the Scottish Government; the Scottish electorate are quite capable of doing that, as they have done in the past. On the question of overseas trade, is there not a case for every UK embassy having a nominated person who can deal with requests or agendas from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, so that the devolved Governments know exactly how they can work in co-operation with those embassies?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That does exist, and in the Scottish case it is through SDI—Scottish Development International. That system has been working very well over the 26 years of devolution; only in the past two years have we had this encroachment and a different attitude from the Scottish Government. That is what noble Lords are referring to today.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his thoughtful answers. I take issue with one, however. He described my noble friend Lord Foulkes as “dogmatic”, but we on this side regard him as a cuddly pragmatist.

May I take the Minister back to my noble friend’s question? He said in response that the Government will monitor legislation—he later mentioned the GRA and the bottle deposit scheme—but my noble friend asked the Government to monitor expenditure to ensure at an early stage that it is not ultra vires. The Minister did not really address that point. Will he do so?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The devolution settlement was put in place in this House long before I arrived, and the machinery of government was set up in the devolution Act. It does not allow the UK Government to look over the shoulder of the Scottish Government regarding money sent from the Treasury to Scotland. The scrutiny exists in the Scottish Parliament, and Members of the Scottish Parliament rightly scrutinise the Scottish Government and hold them to account. The Auditor General for Scotland, the Accounts Commission and Audit Scotland work together to deliver public audits in Scotland, and the National Audit Office provides independent assurance that public money is spent properly and provides value, and it scrutinises public spending for Parliament. These are the checks and balances in place. If the noble Baroness would like to go further, we would need to bring another Bill to this House.

Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Offord of Garvel]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 22 November 2022 be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 17 January.

Motion agreed.

Scotland Act 1998: Section 35 Power

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

Will the Minister accept—I think he has to—that it was a very controversial decision to use this power for the first time since devolution, especially, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, has said, when the Government lack trust in many quarters regarding their respect for devolution? It has generated a predictable response from the SNP, which is itself divided on the issue and struggling to find a way forward in its interminable campaign for a second referendum.

Will the Minister confirm, nevertheless, that the Government accept that the passing of the gender recognition Bill falls entirely within the powers of the Scottish Government? The Scottish Parliament is adamant that nothing in the Bill impacts on the UK Equality Act. The UK Government say that they have legal advice to the effect that it does, although some lawyers—not all—see the grounds as thin and not justifying the scale of this action. However, as the First Minister has indicated, it appears that it will inevitably be referred to the Court of Session and thence possibly to the Supreme Court. Are the Government’s legal advisers confident of success?

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that it is regrettable that trans people are caught in the crossfire of this dispute. I suggest to the Minister that this is a distraction that suits both Governments, because they are failing to deal with the manifold crises we face in the health service, energy, cost of living, education and transport. These are the central issues dominating the worries and concerns of everyone across Scotland and the whole of the UK. They want their Governments to concentrate on finding ways through the perfect storm that they have helped create. This distraction does not address the needs and priorities of anyone in the UK. Trans people do not deserve to be caught in the middle of it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, it is only after very careful consideration that the Secretary of State for Scotland has decided to make an order under Section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 to prevent the Scottish Parliament’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill from proceeding to Royal Assent. He has considered policy and legal advice and determined that he has reasonable grounds to believe that the Bill would have an adverse impact on the operation of Great Britain-wide equality legislation.

Transgender people deserve our respect, support and understanding. The Secretary of State’s decision is about the consequences of the legislation for the operation of GB-wide equalities protections and other reserved matters. He has therefore concluded that this is the necessary and correct course of action. The decision has not been taken lightly, as he said repeatedly in the other place yesterday.

The Government would prefer not to be in this situation. We do all we can to respect the devolution settlement and resolve disputes. This is the first time that the Section 35 power of the Scotland Act has been used. The Government recognise that this is a significant decision, but Section 35 was included by the Act’s architects to ensure that, in a situation such as this, devolved law and law throughout the United Kingdom can work together effectively.

If the Scottish Government choose to bring an amended Bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, we can work together to find a constructive way forward that respects both devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation. We have set out the detailed concerns that the UK Government have with the Bill in the Statement published yesterday. We want to work with the Scottish Government to resolve these issues. The EHRC stands ready to help; its ongoing concerns are on the record.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, it is not just trans people caught in the crossfire but women. Internationally, women are losing their rights in some countries as to what they wear, how they are educated, where they can work, their reproductive rights and protection against violence. They are even losing their freedom of speech; I sometimes feel the same is true here for us women. We risk here the undermining of our hard-fought rights, as in the Equality Act. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will do nothing to undermine that Act, either in this or in their repeal of the European Union legislation, which also threatens women’s rights?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Equality Act 2010, to which this Government are entirely committed, is a reserved matter. On the basis that we have a unitary state in the United Kingdom, we believe that it is a key matter that must be applied equally across all four nations of the United Kingdom. That is precisely why we are concerned that the Bill passed in Scotland, putting aside the merits of the case, will have an adverse impact on the Equality Act 2010. That is why Section 35 has been triggered.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a very difficult issue to get your head around. In a previous incarnation, I was a non-executive director of the Scottish Prison Service. I saw the terrible vulnerability of women in prison, many of whom had been abused since being babies. They wanted to be in prison because they felt safe there.

In this morning’s Scottish edition of the Times was the very distressing case of a 22 year-old woman, a sex offender held in Cornton Vale women’s prison, who was up on a charge when she was male for attacking somebody in the male division of Polmont young offender institution. The sexual offences she committed were on a 10 year-old and a 12 year-old in supermarkets in Fife. If we look at this legislation as it stands, there is nothing that can give the kind of protection that is needed for those women. She had male genitalia and there was no third-party verification, as there is not in this new Bill.

Let me be political. I have a very real concern that we have been caught in a trap. Nobody in Scotland is talking about the fiasco over the ferries, the fact that the Scottish education system has gone from being one of the best in the world to one of the worst, or the chaos in our National Health Service, despite the fact that the National Health Service in Scotland gets more money than elsewhere because of the Barnett formula. What will the Minister do about it? This is attacking the devolution settlement. I find it quite odd that the First Minister wants to support devolution; she is against devolution—she wants independence. The irony is that she can now say that big, bad Westminster is interfering in good Scottish Parliament decisions. How will the Minister get out of that one?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Baroness’s well-informed comments indicate the sensitivities that we are dealing with in Scotland and the wider UK. The Bill as its stands risks creating significant complications from two different gender recognition regimes in the UK, which could allow for more of the fraudulent or bad-faith applications that we are very worried about. Adverse effects could include impacts on the operation of single-sex spaces, particularly for women and children, whether in prisons, clubs, associations or schools. There could be adverse effects on protections for equal pay and single-sex spaces.

The question was on whether the UK Government should have engaged more with the Scottish Government in the process. We set out our concerns. The Minister for Women and Equalities met the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice before the Bill moved to stage 3 in the Scottish Parliament. In the last two to three years, the UK Government have consulted widely on the GRA. It remains the Government’s view that this legislation strikes the right balance in the protections mentioned by the noble Baroness. This was well known to the Scottish Government. All the concerns that have been raised on behalf of women’s groups and from notable folks—whether the UN special rapporteur, the independent EU expert on protection for violence against women, or the Equality and Human Rights Commission —were put to the Scottish Government, but they have continued to push ahead with this legislation.

We have not been alone in expressing concerns regarding the Bill’s impact on the Equality Act and women and girls specifically. This has been a constant issue since these proposals were first published. It is very unfortunate that those ongoing concerns were not given more weight and that the legislation was not paused to allow further discussions between the Governments.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that what the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, has ably demonstrated in referring to concerns about the fraudulent use of this provision is the importance of the Government and the Official Opposition being united in their position on the steps proposed by the Scottish Parliament, so that we can put on a united front as the United Kingdom Parliament in exposing that the Scottish Government are using something so profound and sensitive for political purposes and, if there is a difference of view on some of the substance of the matter, object to it on those grounds?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Yes, I agree with the noble Baroness. What is happening is that the boundaries of devolution are being pushed to the limit. Perhaps the architects at the time did not anticipate that we would be here on such an issue, but they put Section 35 into the Act for a reason. It was there at the start and it was voted for by the SNP. It is a means to enable devolution and allow it to work, and to allow the Scottish Parliament to act within the Scotland Act on devolved matters, but there is a requirement to examine whether they will have an impact on the rest of the United Kingdom.

When the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004—the former First Minister of Scotland at the time, the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, will know this—the Scottish Parliament gave legislative consent, through an LCM, to that Act, because it is a devolved matter. The reason they gave was the desirability of having a single coherent gender recognition regime applying uniformly across the UK, and we have not had any evidence of why the desirability of that has changed.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, that prisoners are allocated prisons on a case-by-case basis, according to how suitable they are. I wanted to have a word with the Minister; I am quite sad in my heart that the trans community in Scotland is being used as a political football in this way, as several noble Lords have said. Might the Government give some potentially more optimistic news on what is happening? There are suggestions in the press that the Government intend to have talks with the Scottish Government on the legislation. Can the Minister tell us whether that is likely to happen? I think he intimated that earlier. If so, when is it likely to commence?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

On one level, we are just in the legal mechanics at this point, because concerns were raised by the UK Government—and by many other credible groups—with the Scottish Government, and those were not taken care of in the passing of the Bill. That now moves into a four-week legal process under Section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 for us to reject the Bill and for it not to go to Royal Assent. It now goes back to the Scottish Parliament on that basis, and the channels are very open and clear that we are prepared to have a conversation about it. We want to move this forward, but we need to do it on a basis that satisfies the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not recall every individual discussion we had in Cabinet during my time as First Minister, but I do recall this discussion in 2004 in great detail. It was quite possibly the most complex discussion we ever had on a single piece of legislation, and that decision to go for a legislative consent Motion and legislate consistently across the UK was not taken lightly at the time. It was taken primarily to protect the interests of transgender people—not to protect the state or the union, but to protect the interests of individuals who had to live and work across the whole of the United Kingdom. So, this issue needs to be taken very seriously and from a point of principle.

The Scotland Act was designed to make sure that we also did not have conflicting legislation that caused difficulties across the UK; therefore, this does need to be looked at in the detail outlined by the Secretary of State. Will the Government guarantee to have constructive discussions with the Scottish Government about finding a way through the difficulties that have been outlined? Will they publish the minutes of the meetings that took place between the Ministers, because there are conflicting claims about those meetings? If there is an agreement reached that allows this legislation to work across the whole of the UK, will the Government withdraw the Section 35 order in the spirit of unity that this would then mean?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

A number of these matters lie fundamentally in another place and in another department. Right now, the Scotland Office is in a situation where, under the architecture, it is pressing the button on Section 35. The Bill now goes back to the Scottish Government, and discussions need to be had with the relevant UK department on this matter. That will require discussion with the UK Minister for Women and Equalities. My understanding is that these channels are open and that a discussion will be had. As to whether minutes are published, et cetera, I cannot comment on that. I guess that if that is the normal procedure, it will be done. There is no attempt to be anything other than fully transparent on this matter. The Scottish Government are within competency in matters of gender. This issue has come to this House and the other place because there is a knock-on effect on the rest of the United Kingdom in relation to the Equality Act.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, one of the points that has been made clear by the First Minister is that she wants to take this issue to court. That is a waste of public money, and it is certainly a waste of time. Think of the time it would take to go through the Outer House, the Inner House and then to the Supreme Court—we are talking about something like 18 months before there is a solution. To pick up a phrase from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, it is not going to take us anywhere. The solution is to get around the table; I think I am echoing something that the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, has already said. Judging by what the First Minister said last night, I think there is a suspicion that the Government are not acting in good faith. We need a clear declaration from the Minister that the issue the Government take with the Bill is based on thorough research of its effect; there is no question of bad faith here at all. There is an issue to be discussed, but the sooner it can be, the better. Every effort must be made to bring the two parties together so that we can resolve these various very difficult problems.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his contribution. As a former Supreme Court judge, he knows these matters very well. I completely agree that it would be a waste of public money to go to the courts. In fact, in pressing that button, it was almost as if that was anticipated. Therefore, we need to get around the table and discuss this issue. The UK Government have consulted on this matter, as we have said, over the last two years and believe that the legislation currently provides the right checks and balances. However, the Bill is obviously an attempt to move that legislation forward and therefore should be considered. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has concerns about the Bill, as do many others, and they are on the record. What that says to us is that this is a sensitive issue which requires further consultation.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government were absolutely correct in preventing this Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill gaining Royal Assent. Some 347 Bills have gained Royal Assent in the Scottish Parliament, so to take a step to prevent this one in particular shows that there is a clearly a problem. While MSPs and others fully support it, I do not believe that the majority of the Scottish people support it as it stands. There is an obvious and serious adverse impact on the operation of the Equality Act 2010. To suggest, for example, that a 16 year-old with no parental or medical support should be encouraged and lawfully allowed to change gender in weeks is a catastrophe in waiting.

For too long now, the safety and security of women and girls has been continually undermined. This situation is too important to ignore. Would the Minister agree that this issue needs much more discussion and that, as it stands, the Bill should not be allowed to gain Royal Assent at any cost?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend, and I agree. We are in a situation now where we cannot proceed, on the basis that the Scottish Government have pushed forward with the Bill, it has come to us and we have to consider it under Section 35. It needs further consideration. That is why Section 35 has been triggered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Baroness. This debate has made many references to the Scottish Government and the Scottish First Minister. I ask the Chamber to acknowledge that we are talking about a law passed by the Scottish Parliament by a significant majority—I hope everyone would acknowledge that. I note also that the First Minister of Wales has said that he would like to introduce the same provisions in Wales and will ask the Government for the right to do so.

I entirely sympathise with the desire for compromise and talks expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. The Statement says, and the Minister has repeated, that the Government want to talk to the Scottish Government and get around the table to come to a compromise. But they are arguing that it is impossible to have different gender recognition certificate systems in different parts of the UK. If this is the case, what kind of compromise are the Government going to offer? How can the Bill be amended rather than just being thrown out, if that is what the Government are demanding?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That just indicates the sensitivity of the matter we are dealing with. On the face of it, the Scottish Government Bill allows the Equality Act to continue, because the GRC works within the architecture of that Act, but the Bill has changed the criteria for applying for that GRC, and that has a significant impact, as we have discussed. Therefore, it will need to be discussed in detail and sensitively.

At the end of the day, the issue we are dealing with in this Chamber right now is that the Government believe it would be significantly complicated to have two different gender recognition regimes in the UK, and that this would create a lot of problems between Scotland and England. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said, up until now, and at all points through the discussion, it was considered that the Scottish system should remain within the UK system. We do not see any evidence for why that has changed.

Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Offord of Garvel]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this order, which was laid on 22 November 2022. It is a result of collaborative working between the two Governments in Scotland. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary legislative amendments in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Scotland Act orders are a demonstration of devolution in action. I am pleased to say that, although this is my first order, the Scotland Office has taken through over 250 orders since devolution began 25 years ago.

In this case, the order contains amendments to Section 26(1) of the Transport Act 1985 as a consequence of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, which I shall refer to as the 2019 Act. This provides new powers to the traffic commissioner to impose public service vehicle licence conditions on operators who fail to discharge obligations imposed on operators under the 2019 Act and the order. The 2019 Act is also a multitopic piece of legislation, designed to deliver a more responsive and sustainable transport system for everyone in Scotland. The 2019 Act makes provision in a range of areas, such as pavement parking, roadworks, workplace parking licensing, smart ticketing, low emission zones, and bus services—the latter three of which are the genesis of this order. It also empowers local authorities and establishes consistent standards in a range of areas to tackle current and future challenges regarding transport in Scotland.

I will now explain the effect the order will have and the provision it will make. It will permit the DVLA and the Joint Air Quality Unit to share vehicle information to relevant Scottish bodies to enable the operation and enforcement of the low emission zones.

The order will make provision updating the enforcement regime for the competition test under Section 37 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001, so that it applies to a Scottish local transport authority’s functions relating to bus service improvement partnerships, which will replace the quality partnership model introduced in the 2001 Act. This amended enforcement regime will also apply to the making and varying of ticketing schemes made under the 2001 Act after the amended regime comes into force. The order will also make equivalent provision to that made under part 2 of Schedule 10 to the Transport Act 2000, to apply a bespoke set of rules to certain agreements, decisions and practices made pursuant to bus service improvement partnerships, in place of the Chapter I prohibition under the Competition Act 1998.

Further, the order will make provision to ensure that the rights and protections afforded by the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations —TUPE—will apply to employees who are affected when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland. This includes provision allowing local transport authorities to request certain employee information from bus operators. In connection with that, the order will ensure that pension protection will apply to circumstances that are to be treated as “relevant transfer” for the purposes of TUPE, when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland.

Although certain transport matters are devolved to Scotland, I am pleased to support the important legislation through this Scotland Act order on behalf of the UK Government. I beg to move.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have one or two questions. The order specifically focuses on low emission zones and integrated ticketing, including linking between railways and ferries, about which there is something of an issue in Scotland at the moment.

The reason why we require this is not entirely clear to me. What are the competition issues that require a UK agreement? I am not complaining about it; I want clarification. To put it the other way round: to what extent might there be a diversion within Scotland? Does that require UK Government consent or is it entirely a matter within the devolved responsibility?

To go to the specifics, low emission zones create some degree of controversy, not only in Scotland but elsewhere. I notice from looking at my local press that quite a few people are unhappy about them in Aberdeen and Glasgow. That is not a reason for not doing them; it is probably desirable to do so, but changes such as that mean that traffic going past certain businesses may change to their detriment. Do these issues have to be taken into account or are they just an unfortunate consequence?

On integrated ticketing, ScotRail and most of the ferries are wholly owned by the Scottish Government, although there are private operators, so what is the competition impact of that? Is it on other private operators —alternative forms of transport—which would seem valid to me? From looking at the various briefs, the established practice is clearly that each region and local authority in England has its own rules about this, and it seems that we are just applying the same rules in Scotland. Is that to have consistency across the piece so that, wherever they are in the UK, people can appreciate that the principles behind these will broadly be the same?

I concur with what the Minister said at the beginning. As a strong supporter of devolution—indeed, I would call myself a passionate home ruler—but not of separatism, it is good to see proper working between the two Governments; it is desirable. It would just be good if the Scottish Government could acknowledge that it happens a little more openly and be a bit more constructive about it, because to my mind that is how it should work.

Obviously, reassurance on TUPE—it is about workers’ rights, I guess, and is absolutely a UK matter—is welcome. I happen to be a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. We have been going through all these issues; indeed, the noble Lord opposite has also gone through that process, which has been slow and cumbersome and is a long way short of being complete. We are finding that there should not be difference for difference’s sake. It is good to have standard and agreed practices but divergence should also be allowed to apply. I want some assurance that, in passing this order, we are neither imposing conditions unnecessarily nor preventing diversion where it is necessary. On the basis that the Minister has said that it has been agreed between the two Governments, I assume that there are no outstanding issues of that sort.

--- Later in debate ---

Is there an appeal provision? As far as I can see there is not, but there may be. Do we not have to be sensitive? I do not know how this is to be carried forward administratively but in coming to this balance we have to be sensitive, I hope, to the devolution implications and irritations if a UK-wide body ends up stopping what is seen locally as an important amendment to the bus services in an area.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank noble Lords very much for those succinct questions. I turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and the operation of the low-emission zones. These are appearing in all parts of the UK. They tend to be devolved to local authorities, which are in a position to make up their own minds how they operate. We have them going in London and Oxford; in Scotland, Glasgow is now in its pilot. They are very much a devolved matter to allow the local authority to decide how to operate them in its own area. In fact, this whole order simply implements the devolved settlement.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked why it has taken so long, with the 2019 Act now coming here in 2023. I guess it is not the first time that legislation in Scotland has taken a while to come through the system. There is nothing particularly controversial in this; I assume it is just how the wheels have turned. This is very much to allow the Scottish Government to proceed with their traffic Bill, and we are working in co-operation with the Scottish Government. Low-emission zones will therefore be run by the local authorities.

The specific question about the ferries is a good one. The briefing I have here is very much in relation to the buses, because there will be some changes to the bussing arrangements. It is a change from the established system of quality partnerships to a new partnership basis, where the local authority will have a different arrangement with franchise operators. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is absolutely right to say that there is very little competition on the ferries, with Western Ferries perhaps being one of the few cases where there is. If the noble Lord does not mind, I will follow up specifically on that because the buses point is well covered but the ferries point is not covered quite so well.

On the other questions that arose, the DVLA remains in Swansea and remains a UK institution. All this does is to allow the transfer of information effectively from the DVLA to the Scottish authorities, so that will remain in place. Similarly, the Joint Air Quality Unit shall remain. The whole point of devolution is to allow the UK institutions to remain in place and the Scottish Government to interact with them.

In terms of the justice impact, there is always an impact assessment done on legislation. That is done by the Scottish Government on their legislation; we do not do a further impact assessment. The Scottish Government have done their impact assessment on this Act and they consider it to be positive for the community and the people of Scotland.

There is a similar issue around the role of the CMA and the Competition Act. We are not changing anything to do with UK law around the Competition Act. It remains absolutely as it was before; all we are doing is making a provision for bespoke competition regimes to apply, and it is part of the devolution settlement that that is the case. This is very much Scotland being allowed to run its own transport system and to make its own decisions locally, but by referencing UK institutions when required.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Can I help the Minister by defining my question more precisely? In that paragraph there is a balance between two concepts: one is better buses and the other is preserving competition. Somebody has to decide which of those arguments works. I would have thought that could result in the CMA coming into conflict with the Scottish Government or the Scottish local authority that wants to introduce a much better bus service, or have I totally misread that?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The local rules for competition will be set by the Scottish Government within the Scottish jurisdiction. The whole point of this is to allow them to do that; they will set their own rules, hence the reason for changing the arrangements around buses. Under this order, the Scottish Government are able to implement the Act that allows them to change the competition rules for themselves, within their country. That is fully devolved to the Scottish Government.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Would the Minister be kind enough to review that answer and, if he is not entirely happy with it, write to me?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I would be very happy to clarify that point. We have covered the matters raised, so I will finish by reflecting and agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, on how the majority of business done between the two Governments is done by officials, behind the scenes, reasonably competently. We work very hard to do that through the interministerial groups that we now have with the Scottish Government. We have a very difficult situation in the other place today—the first time a Section 35 order has ever been implemented—but, on the whole, we work together closely. On that basis, I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Scottish Independence

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Scottish Government about that government’s policy paper Building a New Scotland: A stronger economy with independence, published on 17 October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, I can answer the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, by confirming that His Majesty’s Government have had no discussions with the Scottish Government about the recent policy paper entitled Building a New Scotland: A Stronger Economy with Independence, dated 22 October. This is the third of seven glossy documents currently being produced by the Scottish Government as they continue to bypass devolution by spending £20 million of taxpayers’ money and wasting civil servants’ time on matters reserved for the United Kingdom Government.

Last month, the Supreme Court gave a decisive, unanimous ruling that the Scottish Government have no legal competence to legislate on reserved matters. The constitution is clearly and unequivocally reserved to Westminster. It follows now that His Majesty’s Government calls on the Scottish Government to cease and desist from constantly crossing the line from devolved matters into reserved matters. As the Secretary of State for Scotland said last year in the other place:

“I think most right-minded Scots would agree that using civil service resources to design a prospectus for independence is the wrong thing to be doing at this time.”—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/2021; col. 289.]

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I am very grateful to the Minister for his reply: I could have written it myself. However, now that the Supreme Court has decided that the Scottish Government have no responsibility whatever for calling a referendum, surely the production of all these publications he described, and indeed the employment of so many civil servants, is ultra vires. Since it is the United Kingdom Government who have the ultimate responsibility for the propriety of the expenditure of all UK taxpayers’ money, when and how are they going to exercise this responsibility?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

As the noble Lord was an active parliamentarian at that time, I am sure he can confirm that the devolution settlement enacted in the Scotland Act 1998 did not envisage a scenario where the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood would act in confrontation, instead of in co-operation, with Westminster. The Scotland Act assumed there would be a very clear demarcation between reserved and devolved matters, respected by both sides. Therefore, there are no penalties, fines or surcharges built into the parliamentary architecture for ultra vires activities of the sort previously described to the House by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as applying, for example, to local councillors. However, I reassure noble Lords that this matter has now been reviewed at the highest reaches of the UK Civil Service.

Following the Supreme Court judgment, the United Kingdom Cabinet Secretary is in discussion with the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary on the role of the Civil Service in Scotland. My own observation from 15 months as a Minister in the Scotland Office is that if only we could get the Scottish Government focused on the day job of administering Scottish affairs in devolved areas and working in co-operation with the UK Government in reserved areas, there is no doubt in my mind that, working together, we could turbocharge Scotland.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister will recall that in 1997, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown said that devolution and giving the Scottish Parliament greater powers would kill nationalism stone dead. Does he think that the recent idea—floated, I think, on Monday—to give the Scottish Parliament more powers would kill the idea of an independent Scotland stone dead again?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord should be well aware that Gordon Brown has been on this journey for quite a while; he proposes a federal United Kingdom. But when one of the four nations has 85% of the population and 90% of the wealth and it does not want devolution, you have a problem. So I agree with the noble Lord that devolution did not kill independence stone dead, but I am very clear that the Scottish National Party commands the support of only one-third of the Scottish electorate and therefore it should get on with the job in hand, which is to manage Scotland within the devolution settlement.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that while this document is strong on nationalist rhetoric, it is almost entirely deficient in detail? Does he say that the SNP does not have the capacity to second-guess the outcome of negotiations with either the rest of the UK, the EU or the financial markets, and that it should recognise that Scottish opinion is still divided and what it should be doing is getting on with the job in hand, addressing what matters in the ailing health service and declining education, and end this embarrassing distraction?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord is obviously well versed in the Scottish economy and Scottish affairs. I make two observations on the paper, the glossy document. First, as we have come to expect from a Scottish Government with 27 Ministers and 56 press officers, for every policy initiative there is a glossy document and a glitzy, headline-making press release. The problem the Scottish people have, which we have found to our cost, is that actual policy delivery on the ground ranges from non-existent to incompetent. Secondly, any reader of the glossy document will discover four glaring omissions: no explanation of how an independent Scotland would reduce our annual deficit of £24 billion, which is 25% of our annual budget; no explanation of how an independent Scotland would fund this deficit without access to international bond markets through its own currency; no explanation of how an independent Scotland would operate a hard border on the island of Great Britain; and no explanation of how an independent Scotland would access the knowledge economy when the SNP has wrecked our education system.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister referred, in responding to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, to “right-minded Scots”. Is he aware that an Ipsos MORI poll on independence came out just a couple of hours ago, after the release of this Building a New Scotland policy paper and the Supreme Court judgment, which shows a significant rise in support for Scottish independence? Should the Scottish people not be allowed to have their say?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

As we have said many times in this Chamber, the Scottish people had their say in 2014. Some 3.6 million Scots voted: 84% of the electorate. It was the highest turnout anywhere other than Australia, where it is compulsory to vote. In it, 2 million voted to stay and 1.6 million voted to leave. That is a decisive result.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one exemplar of the SNP’s capability in economic and industrial terms is shipbuilding? We have provided incredible orders on the Clyde and at Babcock for our Navy, yet the only area in which the SNP has been involved are some ferries which are something like three years overdue and had to have windows painted on them because holes had not been cut. It is now thinking of building them somewhere else. Does the Minister agree that that is an exemplar of what the SNP can achieve?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord has great knowledge of these matters. The UK Government have just announced £4 billion of new shipbuilding orders coming to the Clyde and Rosyth. It has been noted that in the last five years the naval shipyards in Scotland have built four frigates while the SNP cannot get two rusting ferries off the dock. It is very clear that we have great competence and strength in our naval shipyards. Sadly, that is not the case within the Scottish Government’s remit.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that Scotland’s greatest market is England, the scale of which is substantial? Whether Scotland can go it alone is the wrong question. The question is: wherein lies the balance of advantage? Conclusively, in my view, it is in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord; 60% of Scottish trade is with England, 20% is with the EU and 20% is international. This is part of the issue not addressed in the paper. I point to a couple of observations. The IFS has said of the paper that

“Scotland’s much higher levels of public spending … mean that it … would need to make bigger cuts to … spending or … increases to taxes”.

Richard Murphy, traditionally a pro-independence economist, said to the National that the

“currency plans are ‘so wrong’ he would vote No in a future referendum.”

A pro-independence campaigner, Robin McAlpine, commented that the prospect was dismal—Scotland has no lender of last resort under these plans and there is no solution to the border. In summary, he said the whole thing is “utter pish”. I defer to the Lord Speaker to explain to more genteel noble Lords that that is a Glaswegian euphemism for utter balderdash.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the truth that neither the Scottish Government nor the UK Government are doing a good job for the Scottish people at the moment? Does the Minister not think the Labour leader in Scotland, Anas Sarwar, makes a very strong point when he proposes that there should be an emergency cost of living Act, including halving rail fares, capping bus journeys, emergency debt legislation, a top-up to the welfare fund and a fully costed plan for £100 water rebates? Would that not be a better use of the Scottish Government’s time?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is quite a long shopping list. We can see the strength of the United Kingdom in the measures recently put forward to address the cost of living crisis, which are distributed equally across all four parts of the United Kingdom. Scotland is a major beneficiary of those and is funded much more securely within the United Kingdom than it would be as an independent country.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I always feel I have a slight vested interest in this issue, being a living example of an English-Scottish relationship, with an English mother and a Scottish father. Like many others in your Lordships’ House, I remain committed to a stronger union.

However, today in Scotland there are wide and acute concerns about the health service, education and the economy—concerns shared across the whole of the UK—so it continues to disappoint that independence remains the SNP’s top priority, rather than an absolute focus on improving public services and changing lives now. However, does the Minister acknowledge that there has been a failure by this Government to illustrate clearly why the case for independence is built on myths and false hope? Will he accept, as we do on these Benches, that a strong commitment to the union goes hand in hand with effective and practical devolution?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Government note and respect the unanimous ruling by the Supreme Court that the Scottish Government do not have legislative competence to hold a referendum. The people of Scotland want both our Governments to concentrate all our attention and resources on the issues that matter most to them. That is why we in the UK Government are focused on restoring economic stability, getting people the help they need with their bills and supporting our NHS. As the Prime Minister has made clear, we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government on tackling all the challenges that we share and face.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the First Minister of Scotland has said that, although it is now clear that there is not going to be a referendum, she will continue to spend British taxpayers’ money on Civil Service and other preparations for this non-existent referendum? Is that not a disgrace, particularly today when teachers in Scotland are on strike because they are not getting enough of a pay increase?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that under the devolution settlement the UK Government do not prescribe to the Scottish Government how to spend the money sent north of the border. That allows the Scottish Government to make grown-up decisions on their own behalf and on behalf of the people of Scotland. The judgment of the Supreme Court has given us helpful clarity on the difference, which we all knew about, between reserved matters and devolved matters. The constitution is therefore clearly reserved, while the spending of £20 million in that area is a matter for the Scottish Government. The noble Lord will know that that could be the equivalent of 1,000 new nurses, 650 police officers or 600 teachers. On a day when schools are out on strike, it is for all of us to point out within the Scottish environment that the Scottish Government should be directing their attention to matters for which they have devolved responsibility.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, when I was a councillor, if a council spent money that was ultra vires, the councillors were personally liable. Given the behaviour of the Scottish Government, should we not be extending the ability to surcharge Members of the devolved Administrations where they incur expenditure that is ultra vires?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is an eminent former Secretary of State for Scotland and knows his territory well. He will also be aware of the architecture put in place at the time of the 1998 Act, which has been further improved by the 2012 and 2016 settlements. Within that, the UK Government give the Scottish Government the discretion to spend their money on behalf of the Scottish people, and it is down to the Scottish people to give their view on that at the ballot box.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the outcome of the Supreme Court judgment was predictable end inevitable. It has been a distraction and a complete waste of time and Scottish taxpayers’ money, and I speak with personal affront about that. Will the Minister consider in any future referendum setting out the conditions and criteria by which a referendum would be triggered and conducted, so that people know the circumstances and do not have to suffer this never-ending push? Does he agree that for the SNP to complain about democracy is to forget that they have betrayed the people of Scotland, who have twice voted for devolution and never voted for independence?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord, another eminent Scottish politician, is well aware of the circumstances in which they are operating. There is no need to be talking about another referendum. The Supreme Court has made it very clear that there is no avenue for that within the Scottish Government. More importantly, there is no appetite now. When the referendum was held in 2014, there was consensus across both Parliaments, all parties and civil society that the referendum should be held. Some 3.6 million Scots voted, 2 million of whom voted to stay in the UK while 1.6 million voted to leave. That is a decisive result and, given that since that time the SNP has consistently polled only in the region of 1.3 million to 1.4 million votes, it has no more than one-third of the population who want to pursue a separatist agenda, in which case there is no need for us to consider another referendum.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, at home, on the register in Perthshire, there are four voters. I have kept the election communications from the May 2021 election. These communications from the SNP and from the Scottish Green Party are extremely smart. They are brimming with reasons why you should vote for either the Scottish Greens or for the SNP, but nowhere do they mention the idea of a referendum or independence. How does the Minister feel that chimes with the claimed mandate of the SNP Scottish Government for a referendum?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Scottish Government have been dominated by the Scottish National Party for eight elections in a row. They have done that on the basis of 1.3 million to 1.4 million votes, and under that they have a legitimate mandate to govern the UK—sorry, I mean within the Scottish Government. [Laughter] In the other place, we know that UK Governments can effectively govern on a mandate of 35% to 40% of the vote. No one is disputing that that is a mandate to govern, but it is not a mandate to break up a country. Where there continues to be no more than one-third of popular support to break up the UK, there is no need for us to pursue the case.

On my travels abroad, I was recently in Iceland and met the Icelandic Prime Minister. She had just had a meeting with Angus Robertson, who I think was passing himself off as the Foreign Secretary of Scotland. She said to me, rolling her eyes, “The poor people of Scotland are so oppressed, not being allowed to leave. There is obviously majority support for independence. Why won’t the UK Government allow the Scottish people to have their freedom?” I said, “Prime Minister, I believe you had your independence from Denmark in 1944.” She said yes. I said, “I believe you had a vote.” She said yes. I asked, “What was the vote in favour of independence?” She said it was 96%. I said, “The SNP currently has 37%.” She smiled and said, “Let’s talk about energy.”

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the decision of the Supreme Court will not have come as a surprise to anyone who understood the legislation. It was a complete diversion. As the Minister said, the task in front of the Government of Scotland is surely to address the present economic crisis and its effect on the dreadful performance in education and health. If that is true in Scotland, though, it is surely also true for the British Government. Will the Minister therefore assure me that the Government have no plans to introduce wholesale constitutional changes over the next few years that would just divert us from addressing the main problems facing this country?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Reid, another distinguished former Scottish Secretary, that there the UK Government have no plans to alter the constitutional settlement any further. Scotland is a very well-funded country. It has two Parliaments and a surplus of democracy, as the Supreme Court said yesterday.

In the meantime, it receives a record grant of £41 billion from the UK Government. We continue to support 1,700 Scottish shipbuilding jobs on the Clyde with a £4 billion settlement. The levelling-up funds of £172 million are also coming through. We are establishing two Scottish freeports and £52 million is supporting our Scottish producers in fisheries. For farmers, there is £1.6 billion and £1.5 billion has been committed to 12 city deals, which is my responsibility. Scotland is very central in the United Kingdom Government’s plan for prosperity and growth. Scotland has a very, very good deal.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I may be the only Member of this House who will take the view that I am about to. In view of the court case and the right to hold a referendum having been confirmed as being here, and in view of the fact that the overwhelming majority of elected Scottish MPs support having a referendum, will the Minister publish a document clarifying the way in which such a referendum can be held or is he going to maintain an everlasting veto on the aspirations of the people of Scotland?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The SNP does not have a majority in Holyrood and therefore cannot say that it has a majority. As the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, pointed out, the SNP’s own prospectus for government was not based on independence; it was based on, apparently, being able to run Scotland better. On that basis, there is no need, given yesterday’s judgment, for any further tinkering on the subject.

Scottish Parliament: Independence Referendum

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current policy in respect of any request from the Scottish Parliament for a further referendum on independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government are clearly of the view that now is not the time to talk about another independence referendum in Scotland. People across Scotland want to see both our Governments working together on the issues that matter to them: tackling the cost of living, protecting our long-term energy security, leading the international response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and growing our economy so that everyone has access to opportunities, skills and jobs for the future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am grateful to have a Scottish Minister answering this Question so well, but will he acknowledge that Boris Johnson, the candidates for the leadership of the Tory party and, even more importantly, Keir Starmer have all ruled out a second referendum, so there will not be one? Yet the Scottish Government are employing 20 civil servants and printing and producing party-political propaganda, using UK taxpayers’ money, in their campaign to break up Britain—Nicola Sturgeon is taking the UK Government for fools. So will the Minister take up his strong Scottish arm and ask the Prime Minister and, more importantly in this context, the head of the Civil Service to get the Scottish Government to stop this illegality and start spending the money that they get from British taxpayers on the services for which they are now responsible?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord referenced the £20 million that the Scottish Government have ring-fenced and the 20 civil servants put together for this referendum. The minute the First Minister announced that she wanted to publish a prospectus for independence, the Secretary of State for Scotland said:

“right-minded Scots would agree that using civil service resources to design a prospectus for independence is the wrong thing to be doing at this time.”—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/21; col. 289.]

In the meantime, there have been a number of glossy documents, the first of which was Independence in the Modern World. Wealthier, Happier, Fairer: Why Not Scotland? The SNP has been in power for 15 years, and we can see that Scotland is not wealthier, happier or fairer. We can go through the list: our education system—where I was educated—has gone from outstanding to average, there are record queues in the NHS, 20% of children live in poverty, and ferries are rusting on the Clyde while people cannot go on their holidays. The UK Government are firmly of the view that the Scottish Government should focus on the matters that Scottish people want them to deal with, which is how to make their lives better, and not fuss with another, pretend referendum.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the best response to the First Minister’s request for a second independence referendum is to ensure that the next leader of the Conservative Party makes sure that we are a Government for the entire United Kingdom and implements the recommendations of the Dunlop report in full?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and agree with her that the next leader has a great responsibility to protect the union. I note that they will be the 56th Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. So far, we have had 55, of whom 11 were Scots, so that is a healthy 20% representation, which is one of the reasons why this union has been so successful: Scottish voices have been heard. We must ensure that that continues, which is why the recommendations of the Dunlop report—I share my noble friend’s admiration for it and its author—have formed the basis of the new inter-ministerial group architecture, which resulted in 440 inter-ministerial group meetings in 2021 alone.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, is Minister reinforced in his view that an independence referendum is not required by fact that the Lord Advocate —Scotland’s senior law officer—has ruled that an independence referendum would not be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

This is obviously now on its way to the Supreme Court. The UK Government are very clear that this is outside of competence—this is a reserved, not a devolved, matter. This now goes to the Supreme Court, which will adjudicate on it in the autumn. However, in the meantime, they press ahead: we have another glossy document called Renewing Democracy through Independence, which a professor at the University of Edinburgh, who is not party-political, described as “dismal, negative, uninspiring” and “utterly fanciful”. We still have no details on how Scotland will fund itself without a currency, how it will operate a hard border with England and how it will make the country more successful. This is thin gruel and, as the bard said,

“Auld Scotland wants nae skinking ware

That jaups in luggies”.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, in endorsing the Minister’s statement, I urge the Government to be very careful in the language used in response to the SNP, to avoid giving the SNP any excuse for further anti-Englishness. I hope we can have a response from the Government which is positive while, at the same time, outlining that there is no mandate for a series of referenda in Scotland on this issue.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and take his point that this is as much about tone as it is about content. My observation is that the Scots have been happiest in this union when we demonstrably punch above our weight: we have 8% of the population and 33% of the geography of the UK, but as Scots we have a duty to ensure that whatever we do is more than 8% and heading towards 33%. In recent times, the Scots would perhaps feel that their voices have not been heard; sometimes they look at Westminster with some consternation. The next Prime Minister has an opportunity to change this perception and show that we really do care by creating a positive narrative for Scotland inside the union.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, there are four voters on the register at home in Perthshire and I kept the election communications that came through the door in May last year: two booklets from the SNP and one booklet from the Scottish Greens. There are many reasons that those booklets list for voting for the SNP and Scottish Greens, respectively, but not once is there any mention in them of an independence referendum. Does the Minister feel that this too is a relevant factor?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Yes, I do, and I agree with the noble Earl. This might be recognised in the 2021 election for Holyrood: the First Minister was trying to persuade Scots to vote for her on her Covid record, but the minute she got into power, her campaign went back to being a mandate for a referendum.

I agree that we have a lot of weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth the whole time, but we must look at what this is actually based on. The population of Scotland is 5.3 million, of whom 4.3 million are eligible to vote. In the 2014 independence referendum, 3.6 million Scots voted—an extraordinary percentage of 84%, the highest in any country other than Australia, where it is mandatory to vote. Noble Lords should compare this with the 2.6 million Scots who voted in the EU referendum; so 1 million more Scots voted for the UK union than for the European Union. The point is that, in the 2019 general election, 1.3 million Scots voted for the nationalists, against the 1.6 million who voted in the referendum. As they are in territory of around 1.3 million or 1.4 million votes out of an electorate of 4.3 million, I do not believe that this is a mandate for independence.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, Scotland deserves better. There are over 700,000 Scots on NHS waiting lists, and over 10,000 children and young people waiting for mental health appointments. There are almost 20,000 fewer businesses in Scotland today than there were before the pandemic began. For households across Scotland, it does not feel as though the crisis is over. Does the Minister agree with Labour that the Scottish Government would be better served looking after and focusing on the people of Scotland than concentrating on an independence referendum?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I think we should always turn the argument back on them. They claim that they want to make Scotland wealthier, happier and fairer, but they have not given us any arguments as to how they can do that. We believe that we can do that much better within the union and with a positive narrative for Scotland inside the union: we have a strong currency and 300 years of family binds that bring us together; we support each other, as we have just seen during Covid through furlough. We are all better together, therefore I endorse the noble Lord’s opinion.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, surely there is another view: the parties proposing an independence referendum won a majority of seats and votes in last year’s Scottish Parliament election. That is the standard definition of a democratic mandate. If the Government have decided on another definition, could they please tell your Lordships’ House what it is? Or have the Government simply decided that the people of Scotland will not be allowed to make such a decision for themselves?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

In the last Holyrood election, the SNP failed to get a majority. If we add in the 28,000 Green votes, it got to 50% of the popular vote, but it was still only 1.4 million out of 4.3 million voters. It is stuck at that 1.3 million to 1.4 million. You can decide what a mandate is, but it seems to me that common sense would say that it would need to get to 2 million, because the unionists took 2 million—so that is a gating item. If you go to 60% of that, you have 2.5 million, so I think it is a long way off.

Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance and Information Sharing) (Consequential Provision and Modifications) Order 2022

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Offord of Garvel]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 31 January be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 10 March.

Motion agreed.

Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance and Information-Sharing) (Consequential Provision and Modifications) Order 2022

Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Offord of Garvel]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance and Information-Sharing) (Consequential Provision and Modifications) Order 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order, which was laid on 31 January 2022, be approved. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this order. It is the result of collaborative working between the two Governments in Scotland. The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary legislative amendments in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Scotland Act orders are a demonstration of devolution in action and I am pleased to say that, although this is my first order, my office has taken through more than 250 orders since devolution began.

The draft order amends various pieces of legislation in the United Kingdom as a consequence of the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018, which I shall refer to as the “2018 Act”, and regulations made under the 2018 Act. This order has been brought forward as a result of the close co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments. Through the 2018 Act, the Scottish Government can introduce new forms of disability assistance using the social security powers devolved under Section 22 of the Scotland Act 2016.

Section 31 of the 2018 Act allows the Scottish Government to introduce a payment to provide financial assistance for disabled people in Scotland, called disability assistance. Disability assistance will replace three existing benefits currently delivered by the Department for Work and Pensions: disability living allowance, personal independence payment and attendance allowance. Through these powers the Scottish Government have legislated that adult disability payment will replace personal independence payment, beginning with a pilot on 21 March 2022.

From introduction, adult disability payment will operate in broadly the same way for broadly similar people as personal independence payment. Applications will be accepted from individuals between 16 years old and state pension age. It is the UK and Scottish Governments’ intention that there will be equitable treatment for those individuals receiving personal independence payment and adult disability payment. If this order is passed, it will ensure the equitable treatment of individuals in receipt of adult disability payment and personal independence payment with regard to tax treatments, benefits, entitlements and voting rights.

I will next outline the details of what the order does to ensure that people receiving adult disability payment receive equitable treatment with those on personal independence payment. In terms of changes to taxation legislation, the order will extend the definition of a disabled person to include individuals in receipt of a qualifying rate and component of adult disability payment. This will apply in two cases: first, where the tax treatment of property is held in a trust for the benefit of a disabled person; and, secondly, to the early withdrawal of funds from a child trust fund or junior ISA if the young person is terminally ill.

The order also extends provision to ensure that those on adult disability payment benefit from the following reliefs: a VAT zero rate for the leasing of vehicles to individuals under the Motability scheme; a VAT zero rate for the onward sale of vehicles previously let under the scheme; an exemption from insurance premium tax on the insurance covering vehicles leased under the Motability scheme; eligibility for a driving licence at age 16 rather than 17 when the individual has an award of the enhanced rate of the mobility component of adult disability payment; and an exemption or a 50% reduction in vehicle excise duty if the individual receives either the enhanced rate or the standard rate of the mobility component respectively. The order will also allow the DVLA to request data from Scottish Ministers to confirm whether an individual is eligible for a driving licence at age 16 or eligible for reliefs in vehicle excise duty.

The order also ensures that adult disability payment can act as a qualifying benefit for the annual Christmas bonus, carer’s credit and carer’s allowance in England and Wales. The latter will ensure continued entitlement to the reserved carer’s allowance in the small number of instances where someone in England and Wales is caring for an individual in Scotland. The order also makes changes to election legislation to entitle those receiving the enhanced rate of the mobility component of adult disability payment to a proxy vote at UK parliamentary and local elections. It also allows for this group to provide a proxy signature for a recall petition without attestation of the application.

Lastly, corresponding provisions for entitlement to carer’s allowance and carer’s credit have been included for Northern Ireland. This will ensure that a carer can apply for support in relation to an individual who has moved from Scotland to Northern Ireland while remaining in receipt of adult disability payment for the 13-week run, affording the individual time to apply and be assessed for personal independence payment.

As I highlighted earlier, all these changes simply ensure that the system for disabled people who are receiving adult disability payment operates in an equitable way, as for a disabled person receiving personal independence payment. These changes are not within the competence of the Scottish Parliament, and the UK Government are therefore facilitating them through this order. This ensures that people in Scotland are not disadvantaged by devolution, meeting the principles set out in the Smith commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that introduction, and indeed welcome him to the special joys of secondary legislation consideration in the House of Lords. I wish him many more in the future.

We support this order and are pleased to see the Scottish Government using the powers transferred to them under the 2016 Act and subsequent legislation—although I briefly venture that we might wish that they had been a little speedier in so doing. However, to say that is to grumble. As we have heard, the Scottish Government are introducing disability assistance for disabled people, and this new adult disability payment has been created to replace DLA, PIP and attendance allowance, starting with a pilot on 21 March. Indeed, a little earlier in Grand Committee, we were debating an order relating to how the ADP will interact with benefits in the rest of the UK. I will not go back over the other questions, but, as the Minister indicated, the order also extends exemptions in relation to mobility, vehicle exemption, access to early driving licences and the definition of a “disabled person” in some tax and benefit legislation.

I have a couple of questions. The Minister said:

“At its introduction, adult disability payment will operate in broadly the same way and for broadly the same group of people as personal independence payment.”—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 2/3/22; col. 3.]


I take that to mean that the conditions for eligibility for ADP will be the same as for PIP, at least at introduction. Does the Minister know whether it is intended that the benefits will continue to be in alignment, or might they diverge over time? Does he know whether there will be a similar, or indeed the same, assessment process for accessing ADP as for accessing PIP? That could make a difference if someone was in receipt of one benefit and moved to the other jurisdiction.

What discussions have the UK Government had with the Scottish Government about how this transition will work? When this order was debated in the Delegated Legislation Committee in the other place, the Minister, Iain Stewart, said:

“The 13 weeks is a safety net, and applications can be made in advance. It is there to ensure that payments can continue if there is some delay, so that no one is disadvantaged.”—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 2/3/22; col. 8.]


I took that to mean that an application for PIP could made while someone was still living in Scotland—in other words, in advance—in order to avoid any gap in payments. But I raised this with the DWP Minister in relation to the earlier DWP order, and, although I have not had the chance to read Hansard, I got the impression that this was not the case: someone would have to wait until they moved to England to make that application. But, if the Minister knows, I would be grateful to understand that—I may not have heard it correctly.

Either way, the intention of the run-on is clearly to ensure that there is no gap in payment for someone moving from Scotland to England. But is the Minister aware that the latest official statistics show that it takes 24 weeks for a claim for PIP to be processed? So, if there is a 13-week run-on and a 24-week application process, I wonder whether there have been discussions between the two Governments about how to manage that. Again, I raised this with DWP, but it is a matter for both departments to consider.

Could the Minister tell us what discussions have happened between the UK and Scottish Governments to ensure that disabled people in different parts of the UK are informed of the consequences of a move to or from Scotland? What support will be put in place to ensure a seamless transition from previous benefits to the new regime administered in Scotland? Ministers have said that the intention is that there will be a run-on going the other way as well, but we do not know when yet—so obviously that is an issue in the short term.

Finally, I have one brief question. There will need to be effective interaction between these new Scottish systems and the existing UK infrastructure, including in respect of DVLA as well as DWP. So how do we ensure that both those systems work well and that people who are getting benefits are aware of possibly different timescales and application mechanisms—and, as a result, know what to do? These benefits go to some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and it is very important that they work well. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for her comments. It is indeed interesting that the first instrument on this afternoon’s Order Paper covered the same piece of legislation from the other end; we are joined up in that respect. The question here is broadly about the same way and the same people. The principles are very much that the two Governments work in lock-step; that the treatment of individuals in the UK should be the same, whichever jurisdiction they happen to be in; and that, at the current moment in time, there is absolutely equal treatment in terms of qualification and payments between the two countries.

However, as part of the Scotland Act and the Smith commission, a transfer is ongoing. This is in fact the 12th such benefit to be moved north of the border. Effectively, it allows the Scottish Government not only to become the payer but to have the machinery to make payments through Social Security Scotland. The customer should see absolutely no difference in this transition but, going forward, we have pilots starting in Perth and Kinross, Dundee and the Western Isles. Initially, new claimants will come on to the new system. The idea is that, from the summer onwards, 300,000 people will be transferred across from the English system to the Scottish system. However, it is absolutely not our place to debate in this place how that will go forward. When we transfer those powers, we do so on an equal basis; it will then be for the Scottish Government to decide how they will legislate for their programme of government. We cannot comment at this point as to whether there will be divergence; that will be a matter for the Scottish Government.

As far as the 13-week timeframe is concerned, that is considered reasonable. I heard the point made in the first debate about 24 weeks, which seems rather long. I know that the Minister in that regard will write; the question of what will happen if there is a gap is one that we will probably come back to. The objective here is to have no gap, so that, as claimants move from one region to the other, they can apply and be assessed within 13 weeks, and continue—and, indeed, be backdated as well. The spirit of this legislation is that there should be no gap, but the specific question about 24 weeks needs to be looked at, so I will combine with the Minister from the first debate, my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott, on that one.

Crucially, the notification of customers is dependent on what we now call customer care. It should be done with the customers. The DWP must write to customers who are transferring, and anyone coming south of the border again must be notified by Social Security Scotland. One has to assume that the agencies involved will do that and take care of the process. At the end of the day, the DWP and Social Security Scotland will co-operate closely. Their objective will be to ensure that there is no detriment to disabled people as a result of the introduction of the adult disability payment.

I conclude by saying that this instrument demonstrates the continued commitment of the UK Government to work with the Scottish Government to deliver for Scotland and maintain a functioning settlement for Scotland.

Motion agreed.