Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023
(1 year, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Offord of Garvel
That the Grand Committee do consider the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this order, which was laid on 22 November 2022. It is a result of collaborative working between the two Governments in Scotland. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary legislative amendments in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Scotland Act orders are a demonstration of devolution in action. I am pleased to say that, although this is my first order, the Scotland Office has taken through over 250 orders since devolution began 25 years ago.
In this case, the order contains amendments to Section 26(1) of the Transport Act 1985 as a consequence of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, which I shall refer to as the 2019 Act. This provides new powers to the traffic commissioner to impose public service vehicle licence conditions on operators who fail to discharge obligations imposed on operators under the 2019 Act and the order. The 2019 Act is also a multitopic piece of legislation, designed to deliver a more responsive and sustainable transport system for everyone in Scotland. The 2019 Act makes provision in a range of areas, such as pavement parking, roadworks, workplace parking licensing, smart ticketing, low emission zones, and bus services—the latter three of which are the genesis of this order. It also empowers local authorities and establishes consistent standards in a range of areas to tackle current and future challenges regarding transport in Scotland.
I will now explain the effect the order will have and the provision it will make. It will permit the DVLA and the Joint Air Quality Unit to share vehicle information to relevant Scottish bodies to enable the operation and enforcement of the low emission zones.
The order will make provision updating the enforcement regime for the competition test under Section 37 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001, so that it applies to a Scottish local transport authority’s functions relating to bus service improvement partnerships, which will replace the quality partnership model introduced in the 2001 Act. This amended enforcement regime will also apply to the making and varying of ticketing schemes made under the 2001 Act after the amended regime comes into force. The order will also make equivalent provision to that made under part 2 of Schedule 10 to the Transport Act 2000, to apply a bespoke set of rules to certain agreements, decisions and practices made pursuant to bus service improvement partnerships, in place of the Chapter I prohibition under the Competition Act 1998.
Further, the order will make provision to ensure that the rights and protections afforded by the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations —TUPE—will apply to employees who are affected when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland. This includes provision allowing local transport authorities to request certain employee information from bus operators. In connection with that, the order will ensure that pension protection will apply to circumstances that are to be treated as “relevant transfer” for the purposes of TUPE, when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland.
Although certain transport matters are devolved to Scotland, I am pleased to support the important legislation through this Scotland Act order on behalf of the UK Government. I beg to move.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have one or two questions. The order specifically focuses on low emission zones and integrated ticketing, including linking between railways and ferries, about which there is something of an issue in Scotland at the moment.
The reason why we require this is not entirely clear to me. What are the competition issues that require a UK agreement? I am not complaining about it; I want clarification. To put it the other way round: to what extent might there be a diversion within Scotland? Does that require UK Government consent or is it entirely a matter within the devolved responsibility?
To go to the specifics, low emission zones create some degree of controversy, not only in Scotland but elsewhere. I notice from looking at my local press that quite a few people are unhappy about them in Aberdeen and Glasgow. That is not a reason for not doing them; it is probably desirable to do so, but changes such as that mean that traffic going past certain businesses may change to their detriment. Do these issues have to be taken into account or are they just an unfortunate consequence?
On integrated ticketing, ScotRail and most of the ferries are wholly owned by the Scottish Government, although there are private operators, so what is the competition impact of that? Is it on other private operators —alternative forms of transport—which would seem valid to me? From looking at the various briefs, the established practice is clearly that each region and local authority in England has its own rules about this, and it seems that we are just applying the same rules in Scotland. Is that to have consistency across the piece so that, wherever they are in the UK, people can appreciate that the principles behind these will broadly be the same?
I concur with what the Minister said at the beginning. As a strong supporter of devolution—indeed, I would call myself a passionate home ruler—but not of separatism, it is good to see proper working between the two Governments; it is desirable. It would just be good if the Scottish Government could acknowledge that it happens a little more openly and be a bit more constructive about it, because to my mind that is how it should work.
Obviously, reassurance on TUPE—it is about workers’ rights, I guess, and is absolutely a UK matter—is welcome. I happen to be a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. We have been going through all these issues; indeed, the noble Lord opposite has also gone through that process, which has been slow and cumbersome and is a long way short of being complete. We are finding that there should not be difference for difference’s sake. It is good to have standard and agreed practices but divergence should also be allowed to apply. I want some assurance that, in passing this order, we are neither imposing conditions unnecessarily nor preventing diversion where it is necessary. On the basis that the Minister has said that it has been agreed between the two Governments, I assume that there are no outstanding issues of that sort.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his remarks, which were lucid and forthright. Is it the case that the DVLA referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum is the DVLA at Morriston in Swansea? That is a huge, valued employer in Wales with a marvellous workforce. One does not want a Scottish competitor, if I may say so. It must be securely located in the Principality. Similarly, where is the Joint Air Quality Unit located? Is it a UK unit? Lastly—I want to be brief in this cool Moses Room—there is a reference in paragraph 12.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum to a “Justice Impact Test”. Can the Minister elaborate on what that process is?
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order; I think he said that it is the first order he has introduced so I welcome him to this process. Having been involved in the process of statutory instruments for a decade, there are various responses to being here with this massive attendance, which is not untypical.
This is a devolution order. I have so far managed to avoid any such orders, so I will tread with care. It seems to me that the general philosophy, if the two sides have agreed this, is that the preponderant input is from the Scottish Government and that this order merely enables and completes it. It then seems that the order has three areas. One covers low-emission zones; here, it is clear that this is what Scotland wants to do in terms of such zones. There is also a section on bus services, ticketing and so on and a section on pay conditions and pension protection. My first question is this: why now? It seems that the essence of the order is to make the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 work. That must have been sorted out three and a half years ago, so I am not clear on how it has worked in the meantime and why this was not done earlier.
The low-emission part is straightforward, as far as I can see, as is the employment part; they are perfectly sensible. The area where I had some trouble understanding was on the role of the CMA. The essence is in Article 21(1), on page 9 of the order, which says:
“A qualifying agreement to which this Chapter applies is exempt if— (a) it contributes to the attainment of one or more of the bus improvement objectives”.
That seems to be not exactly in conflict with but tested against paragraphs (1)(b) and (1)(c), which state that such an agreement is exempt if
“it does not impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of those objectives”—
I always love these double negatives—and
“it does not afford the undertakings concerned the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the services in question.”
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank noble Lords very much for those succinct questions. I turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and the operation of the low-emission zones. These are appearing in all parts of the UK. They tend to be devolved to local authorities, which are in a position to make up their own minds how they operate. We have them going in London and Oxford; in Scotland, Glasgow is now in its pilot. They are very much a devolved matter to allow the local authority to decide how to operate them in its own area. In fact, this whole order simply implements the devolved settlement.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked why it has taken so long, with the 2019 Act now coming here in 2023. I guess it is not the first time that legislation in Scotland has taken a while to come through the system. There is nothing particularly controversial in this; I assume it is just how the wheels have turned. This is very much to allow the Scottish Government to proceed with their traffic Bill, and we are working in co-operation with the Scottish Government. Low-emission zones will therefore be run by the local authorities.
The specific question about the ferries is a good one. The briefing I have here is very much in relation to the buses, because there will be some changes to the bussing arrangements. It is a change from the established system of quality partnerships to a new partnership basis, where the local authority will have a different arrangement with franchise operators. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is absolutely right to say that there is very little competition on the ferries, with Western Ferries perhaps being one of the few cases where there is. If the noble Lord does not mind, I will follow up specifically on that because the buses point is well covered but the ferries point is not covered quite so well.
On the other questions that arose, the DVLA remains in Swansea and remains a UK institution. All this does is to allow the transfer of information effectively from the DVLA to the Scottish authorities, so that will remain in place. Similarly, the Joint Air Quality Unit shall remain. The whole point of devolution is to allow the UK institutions to remain in place and the Scottish Government to interact with them.
In terms of the justice impact, there is always an impact assessment done on legislation. That is done by the Scottish Government on their legislation; we do not do a further impact assessment. The Scottish Government have done their impact assessment on this Act and they consider it to be positive for the community and the people of Scotland.
There is a similar issue around the role of the CMA and the Competition Act. We are not changing anything to do with UK law around the Competition Act. It remains absolutely as it was before; all we are doing is making a provision for bespoke competition regimes to apply, and it is part of the devolution settlement that that is the case. This is very much Scotland being allowed to run its own transport system and to make its own decisions locally, but by referencing UK institutions when required.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
Can I help the Minister by defining my question more precisely? In that paragraph there is a balance between two concepts: one is better buses and the other is preserving competition. Somebody has to decide which of those arguments works. I would have thought that could result in the CMA coming into conflict with the Scottish Government or the Scottish local authority that wants to introduce a much better bus service, or have I totally misread that?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The local rules for competition will be set by the Scottish Government within the Scottish jurisdiction. The whole point of this is to allow them to do that; they will set their own rules, hence the reason for changing the arrangements around buses. Under this order, the Scottish Government are able to implement the Act that allows them to change the competition rules for themselves, within their country. That is fully devolved to the Scottish Government.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
Would the Minister be kind enough to review that answer and, if he is not entirely happy with it, write to me?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I would be very happy to clarify that point. We have covered the matters raised, so I will finish by reflecting and agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, on how the majority of business done between the two Governments is done by officials, behind the scenes, reasonably competently. We work very hard to do that through the interministerial groups that we now have with the Scottish Government. We have a very difficult situation in the other place today—the first time a Section 35 order has ever been implemented—but, on the whole, we work together closely. On that basis, I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
We do not have a Minister—the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is not here—so I propose to adjourn Grand Committee for 10 minutes. If the Minister is not here, the Whip or someone else from the Government will take the next instrument. Grand Committee is now adjourned until 5.18 pm, when it will recommence.