Public Order Bill

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th December 2022 Lords Chamber

Given that it is in the Government’s official guidance, has the double-glazing noise provision ever been used by a police officer to determine whether a protest will be too noisy or not? This is a question to which the whole nation is waiting for an answer. I certainly am. I am also, along with organisers of many protests, waiting to find out whether the Government have yet done any analysis of which streets have lots of double glazing, as protesters need to avoid them for fear of falling foul of the noise threshold.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords. The public order measures in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 have only just come into force, so, in the Government’s view, it is far too early to consider whether they should be repealed. These measures were debated at length during the passage of the Act, and the police have barely had the opportunity to make use of these new powers to manage public processions, assemblies, single-person protests and protests in the area outside Parliament. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to respect the democratic process and allow these measures to continue to be part of the statute book. It is no doubt clear that, as we have seen, the public continue to be able to protest as before since the commencement of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022.

I will not dwell long on the amendment lowering the maximum penalties for wilful obstruction of the highway. This House was clear in its position that the increase in sentences was appropriate, and I doubt that that position has changed in the last six months.

Amendment 123 would repeal the statutory offence of public nuisance and reinstate the common-law offence. In doing so, it would allow courts to place custodial sentences beyond the current 10-year maximum in the statutory offence. This would also have the effect of removing the reasonable excuse defence. I worry that this amendment undermines the benefits of the statutory offence, as recommended by the Law Commission.

I turn to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on double glazing—I want to say, “for complete transparency”, but perhaps I should not. Parliamentarians asked for practical examples of when the power would and would not be used. This example is in the guidance to illustrate that the threshold is subjective, depending on its impact on people or organisations, which is why there is no decibel threshold.

When debating the measure covered by Amendment 123 during the passage of the PCSC Act, Parliament spoke at length about the meaning of “annoyance”. The Law Commission’s written evidence to the Public Bill Committee on this said:

“Annoyance in the context of nuisance is a legal term of art that does not connote merely feeling annoyed. It requires ‘a real interference with the comfort … of living according to the standards of the average man’”.


In common law, “annoyance” and “inconvenience” were already within the consequence element of the common-law offence.

Amendment 127, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, probes the use of the powers to prevent noise from public processions, and presumably assemblies and single-person protests, from causing harm. I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that the Government are legally required to table a report on the operation of these new powers to manage public processions, assemblies and single-person protests by 28 June 2024. In the meantime, I can inform him that I am not aware of the new powers relating to noise being used—but I remind the House that the use of conditions on protests and other gatherings is relatively infrequent. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about instances of the noise provision being used. As I say, there is no record of the police using this power.

For the reasons I set out, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Did the advice’s definition of “discomfort” really use the word “man”, so it does not apply to women? Is that real?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I was quoting from the Law Commission’s written evidence, which referred to the

“standards of the average man”.

In that context, as in many legal documents, the word “man” implies “mankind”.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I suggest that legal sources need to brush up on equality these days—that is ridiculous.

With my amendments, I was trying to give the Government the opportunity to see that the legislation they have brought in is extremely unpleasant and repressive. I wish I had done a little more homework, like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and highlighted some of the ridiculous things in the Act. He highlighted a real deficit in the Government’s reading of legislation and their concentration on these things, which let such things through. There was a lot of laughter in the Chamber when the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, presented that part of the Bill, as it was. I argue that the drafting of some of these Bills is absolutely appalling, and that highlights it. I will of course withdraw my amendment, but this Government are awful.

UK Asylum and Refugee Policy

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Friday 9th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

I thank the most reverend Primate for leading the debate and initiating a constructive dialogue on the important topic. I also thank noble Lords from all sides of the House for their insightful contributions.

I especially welcome our three new Members and thank them for their opening contributions. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester is currently spearheading the Shaped By God Together process within the Leicester diocese, helping each parish to live out better their everyday faith in their communities. The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, has been a notable force for change in the health sector, through her work with Diabetes UK and Action Against Food Poverty, including calling for London to become a zero-hunger city. I also agree with her point on the great work of the London Fire Brigade and refer her to the debate we had yesterday concerning the culture of the fire service, to which many noble Lords who have spoken today contributed. Over the past two decades, the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, has been tireless in serving the Telford community, while also finding time to run a business with his family. He is the only Sikh on the Benches in this House. I know that our debates here will be richer with the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester.

[Noble Lords]

Lord Singh of Wimbledon!

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My apologies; he is the only Sikh on the Labour Benches.

I also share the sentiment of both the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester in hoping that their elevation will be an omen for the success of the English football team on Saturday.

I will make one further point, as a fairly recent entrant to the House myself. The three new Members will have noticed that there is a tendency in the House for noble Lords to make speeches in Question Time when they should be asking questions, and for them to ask questions in debates when they should be making speeches. So I ask for the House’s indulgence, as I will not be able to answer all the questions that noble Lords have asked me today, but I will endeavour to answer as many as possible. I am sure that those I do not answer will be converted into Written Questions in due course.

I also thank my noble friend Lady Nicholson for her heart-rending history of the Yazidi position, and welcome her special guest to the House today.

It is no secret that the UK’s asylum system has, of late, come under severe strain. This year, we have seen around 40,000 people arriving by small boats. Around 100,500 individuals are currently on asylum support. The cost of accommodating asylum seekers in hotels has reached more than £5 million a day. Clearly, something has got to change.

The Government have been clear on their priorities; namely, first, tackling small boat irregular arrivals by encouraging claims to be made in the first safe country and deterring unnecessary, dangerous journeys to the UK; secondly, alleviating pressures on accommodation, including by tackling lengthy stays in processing centres, while of course taking the safety and welfare of those in our care extremely seriously; thirdly, delivering our migration and economic development partnership with Rwanda; and, finally, providing safe and legal routes for people in need of protection and combating the asylum application backlogs. In doing that, we will seek to streamline the asylum decision-making process.

On safe and legal routes, while we are clearly grappling with significant challenges, the UK has maintained our long and proud record of welcoming refugees and people in need of protection through various resettlement schemes. Under the 1951 convention, people should claim asylum in the first safe country which they reach—that is the fastest route to safety. While we know that many people are in difficult situations around the world, the UK cannot possibly accommodate everyone who might wish to come here, as the most reverend Primate identified.

We have adopted a proactive stance in responding to world events. In the wake of Russia’s appalling aggression, we introduced the Ukraine Family Scheme and the Homes for Ukraine scheme. Since January 2022, those schemes have received a total of 220,225 applications, of which 85.8%—that is, 189,131—were granted. I thank the noble Earl for commending the efforts of the department in relation to those schemes.

We continue to welcome people through the existing global UK resettlement scheme, community sponsorship, mandate resettlement scheme and the Afghan resettlement schemes. The Government’s refugee resettlement schemes are focused on those with the greatest need as determined by the UN Refugee Agency. The UNHCR has well-established procedures and submission categories for identifying and resettling the most vulnerable refugees. The UK’s refugee resettlement schemes aim to do exactly what my noble friend Lord Horam has pointed out: to bring those to the UK who are considered refugees as per the UNHCR’s criteria.

Since its expansion in September 2015, a total of 20,103 people have been resettled in the UK through the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, or VPRS, across more than 300 local authorities. Alongside the VPRS, we ran the gateway protection programme, which has resettled more than 9,939 people. The VPRS closed in February 2021 and is succeeded by the global United Kingdom resettlement scheme, which has since its creation settled some 1,882 people. We have also resettled more than 800 through the community sponsorship scheme since it began in 2016.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked what the actual number of Afghans assisted is. The Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, or ACRS, was formally opened in January of this year, with pathways 2 and 3 launched in June. This will provide support for up to 20,000 people affected by events in Afghanistan. This is in addition to those coming under the Afghanistan relocation and assistance package. Operation Pitting was the largest UK military evacuation since the Second World War and saw around 15,000 individuals evacuated to the UK, some of whom were the first to be settled under the ACRS.

In the year following the evacuation, around 6,000 people had arrived in the UK via neighbouring countries under a combination of ARAP and the ACRS pathway 1. The number of vulnerable and at-risk individuals granted leave under pathway 1 now stands at over 6,300. Therefore, to say we have not welcomed anyone through the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme and the Afghan relocation and assistance policy is simply not true.

In addition to these routes, the Government provide a safe and legal route to bring families together through their family reunion policy. This allows a partner or spouse and dependent children to join their refugee family members in the UK if they formed part of the family unit before the sponsor fled their country.

On asylum decision-making, which has been a topic of many speeches in your Lordships’ House, we agree with the point that many have made today that it is unacceptable that there are so many outstanding claims awaiting a decision. The asylum system has been under mounting pressure for several years. Increased and sustained intake and a growing number of people awaiting a decision have led to significant delays in concluding asylum claims. Current efforts are focused on deciding older claims, high-harm cases, and cases with extreme vulnerability such as mental health, child cases, new claims and those in receipt of support since the Nationality and Borders Act came into force on 28 June of this year.

I thank my noble friend Lord Horam for his insightful comments about the impact of excessive immigration on communities. Prioritisation is the answer. We cannot favour those who can afford to pay the people smugglers over other asylum seekers. I also thank the most reverend Primate for his suggestion of triaging asylum claims and removing those who are not going to be granted asylum immediately in order to speed up decision-making, an idea also canvassed by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. In practice, however, while we endeavour to remove individuals as quickly as possible, delays to removal occur due to legal barriers such as fresh claims, further representations, modern slavery claims and judicial reviews, all of which must be considered before removal.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Before the Minister leaves consideration of how to improve the working of the system, can he tell us what has happened to the recommendations from the reviewer in the independent review of 13 months ago?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Those considerations are being studied in the department and will feed into future policy on this issue.

Where an individual’s claim is unsuccessful, they would need to be removed to their country of citizenship or another destination where they would be accepted.

It was apparent that there was a tension between the suggestion of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury on whether we should extend our Ukrainian policies to all nationalities. As the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury rightly noted, it is of course not immoral to have a limit or restrictions on immigration. While we sympathise with the many individuals who are in difficult situations around the world, the United Kingdom simply cannot help everyone who may like to come to this country.

We have introduced the asylum transformation programme, which aims to bring the system back into balance and to modernise it. It focuses on increasing productivity by streamlining, simplifying and digitising processes to speed up asylum decision-making and increase efficiency and output. Since the programme was established in the summer of 2021, a number of positive steps have been taken. More decision-makers have been recruited, alongside steps to keep experienced staff in post.

We have also tested a range of initiatives aimed at reducing the time it takes to interview and decide asylum claims. Changes in recent trials have doubled the number of decisions made per week; we are looking to roll these initiatives out nationwide as a result. This is undoubtedly a significant task, but I assure the House that efforts to address the backlog and alleviate the current pressures will continue in earnest. I hope this assures my noble friend Lord McInnes that the changes we are making will fix the issues with the asylum decision-making process.

Many of those arriving in the UK claim to be children and do not have clear evidence, such as a passport, to back this up. Decision-making is very challenging, and the current process is very subjective and can be disputed in long and expensive legal proceedings. The United Kingdom typically receives more than 3,000 asylum claims from alleged unaccompanied asylum-seeking children per year. Many of those arriving in the UK who claim to be children do not have evidence. Between 2016 and September 2022 there were 7,357 asylum cases in which age was disputed. In the subsequent resolution, some half—3,696 individuals—were in fact found to be adults. If there is doubt whether a claimant is an adult or a child, they are referred to a local authority social services department for a careful, case law-compliant age assessment. They will be treated as a child until a decision on their age is made. I do not need to remind noble Lords that one of the consequences of an adult being treated as a child is that this has the potential to expose those in local authority care to risk.

Beyond our domestic reforms, we are working closely with our international partners to deter small boat arrivals and put an end to the practices of people smuggling and clandestine travel into the United Kingdom. I entirely agree with the comments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, who pointed out the nonsensical position that Albanians can prioritise themselves by crossing the channel in a small boat and, on that basis, effectively jump the queue. It is incumbent on us to prevent that sort of self-selection and queue jumping. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and others overlook the basic fact that not all those who claim to be refugees are actually refugees. It is not immoral to point this out. As my noble friend Lord Robathan stated, we must be sensible and not naive about this.

While legal challenges are ongoing, we remain committed to delivering the migration and economic development partnership between the United Kingdom and Rwanda to address the shared international challenge of illegal migration and break the business model of the people-smuggling gangs. This policy does not subcontract or outsource our responsibilities to Rwanda. Instead, the United Kingdom and Rwanda working together will help make the immigration system fairer and ensure that people are safe to enjoy the new opportunities to develop. It is by reforming the asylum system and taking bold international action to address the global migration crisis that we can keep providing protection for those who need it through safe and legal routes.

I would like to respond to the assertions of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, on our assessment that found Rwanda to be

“a fundamentally safe and secure country with a track record of supporting asylum seekers.”—[Official Report, 14/6/22; col. 1518.]

This is set out in the relevant country policy and information notes available on GOV.UK. These assessments are kept under review and updated periodically to reflect any significant new issues or evidence. We regularly monitor and review the situation in Rwanda and are working closely with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

Last month the United Kingdom and France signed a new agreement further to bolster our combined efforts to prevent dangerous channel crossings, including through strengthened operational co-operation and investment in cutting-edge surveillance technology. The UK remains committed to addressing illegal migration with France via our enduring relationship. We continue to engage with our French friends at all levels, political and operational, supporting the meeting of our shared strategic aims with the provision of technology and sharing of intelligence. France and other EU countries are safe countries and, like the UK, have asylum systems that provide protection to those who need it.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but I did not do so earlier. He talks about safe countries, and earlier he said there is an obligation to claim asylum in the first safe country, but he will of course be aware that the UNHCR said that it is absolutely not the law. Indeed, if it were, the refugee convention would never have been signed because countries that neighbour conflict areas, which already take the bulk of refugees, would never have signed it.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I hear what the noble Baroness says. I commend to her the excellent Policy Exchange paper From the Channel to Rwanda: Three Essays on the Morality of Asylum. On page 14 of that excellent paper, Professor Finnis reminds us that

“the Rwanda scheme does not sub-contract anything. The UK as a founding party to the Refugee Convention, did not undertake to receive or process or admit refugees. Its contractual undertaking and obligation is (a) to give certain rights and privileges to those refugees whom it has chosen to admit and given leave to stay, and (b) not to deport anyone to an unsafe country.”

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

The difficulty with that argument is that the refugee convention imposes on us the duty to hear the claim. If we deport someone to Rwanda on the basis that even if their claim were justified, that will not be established and they will not be allowed to return. They will be investigated in Rwanda to see whether they may have asylum in Rwanda, but they will be unable to pursue their claim to asylum in this country. That is clearly contrary to the refugee convention.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Hesitate as I do to disagree with the noble Lord, that matter is currently before the High Court, and the Government’s position is clearly at odds with his assessment.

I crave the indulgence of the House to carry on for a few more moments, if I may.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I am going to miss my train.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I would be terribly sorry if my noble friend Lord Cormack were to miss his train.

I turn to the questions in relation to climate change. We will not remove anyone to any other country where they would face persecution or serious harm as a result of their country ceasing to exist, as was premised in one noble Lord’s speech.

It is always right in this context to remember that, as pointed out by my noble friend Lord Lilley, arrivals by small boats put significant pressure on local authorities. The Home Office acknowledges the strain that dispersing asylum seekers is putting on many authorities, and it is for this reason that it is working collaboratively with local authorities and commercial partners to agree regional and national plans on implementation for full asylum dispersal. This process will enable us to continue to meet our obligations to accommodate destitute asylum seekers while not overcrowding local areas.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Forgive me, I am afraid I really must make progress. I am sorry to decline the noble Lord’s intervention.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I fear we really must make progress at this stage. We still have to hear from the most reverend Primate Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid that time does not permit me to address all the issues raised by noble Lords. However, I fully understand that this is and will remain an emotive issue for many. Although our compassion may be limitless, our capacity, resources and infrastructure to help people are finite.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

I wish to make a point.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid not.

This country has shown time and again—from those who arrived on the Kindertransport, which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raised, and the Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin, to those fleeing the present dreadful conflict in Ukraine—that when people are suffering and they need sanctuary, we step up. We extend the hand of friendship and provide a welcome born of our natural compassion. As the Government have demonstrated, we are committed to maintaining that long and proud tradition through safe and legal routes, and we will continue to do what is right and help those who are in most need.

As my noble friend Lord Cormack referenced in this debate, I completely agree that refugees enrich both our history and our present. At the same time, the public expect us to control migration, uphold our immigration laws and discourage those who would risk their lives by making unsafe and unnecessary journeys to the UK across the channel. As I hope I have made clear today, the Government approach these responsibilities with the greatest seriousness, and that will continue to be the case.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Before the Minister sits down, will he undertake to write to the noble Lords who have spoken in this debate in order to answer the questions that he has been unable to answer because of the length of time he had available?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I invite noble Lords to ask Written Questions in relation to those points instead.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a former Leader of the House. I have never, ever heard such a reply from a Minister. If a Minister is unable to respond verbally, he or she must reply in writing.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Very well. I shall write, as requested.

Independent Cultural Review of the London Fire Brigade

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, for securing this timely debate. London Fire Brigade’s culture review, conducted by Nazir Afzal, makes for incredibly uncomfortable reading, as many noble Lords have noted. In places, it is positively shocking.

At the outset, I express my gratitude to those who shared their testimonies. They have shown immense courage, and without their input we would not be here today discussing these vital issues. I note, as many noble Lords already have, that it was the London Fire Commissioner himself who decided to commission this report into the culture in his own service. Of course, the trigger for the review was the tragic suicide of Jaden Matthew Francois-Esprit, a trainee firefighter, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. I am glad to see that the London Fire Commissioner has already accepted all 23 recommendations made by Mr Afzal. I join other noble Lords in commending the London Fire Commissioner’s approach and its immediacy.

As noble Lords are aware, the review contains some terrible examples of racist and misogynist behaviour. It is utterly appalling for these reprehensible incidents to be happening anywhere, not least within an organisation that we look to for support in times of need. I am sad to say that these were not wholly unexpected findings. The culture review adds to an already compelling case for reform. The review, along with the Grenfell Tower and Manchester Arena inquiries and findings from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, shows that there are systemic issues at play—issues that can be addressed only through wide-ranging reform. We have already seen progress through the work of His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, the Fire Standards Board and the National Fire Chiefs Council.

The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked what the Government are doing in response, and I will outline this now. His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services—or HMICFRS—shines a light on performance, helping identify what works and where improvement is needed. This includes considering how services promote their values and culture and ensure fairness and diversity. We expect its inspection findings to be taken seriously and action to be taken to improve performance. If sufficient progress is not being made in a service, HMICFRS’s new monitoring regime will provide a sharp focus on improvement. HMICFRS inspections and annual reports have highlighted issues with culture, and unfortunately it is clear that these are not confined to London Fire Brigade. HMICFRS’s recommendation that a code of ethics be developed for fire and rescue services was met with support from the Government and has been rapidly enacted.

I also highlight the independently chaired Fire Standards Board, created to boost professional standards in services. The Government have funded this work, enabling the publication of 12 standards, including standards on safeguarding and ethics. The Fire Standards Board will also shortly publish standards on leadership. Fire and rescue services must have regard to fire standards and should take action to embed these expectations.

We have also funded significant work through the National Fire Chiefs Council to drive improvements in ethics, talent management and inclusion. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke about morale and recruitment. The work that the Government fund in the NFCC provides significant tools to fire and rescue services in supporting well-being, morale and recruitment. We are fully aware of the need to support the majority of firefighters.

We need to build on this good work. What we want, and what the public expect, are effective, modern services with a welcoming, respectful culture that enables all who work in them to thrive. That is why the Government, and my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh, published the fire reform White Paper in May. We remain firmly focused on delivering the change that is needed and have brought forward far-reaching plans for fire reform, which I will speak to shortly.

I turn to some of the specific points raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, raised the role of the Fire Brigades Union. As the largest union representing firefighters, the FBU has a role to play in creating fundamental change, alongside the other fire unions. The Government have ongoing engagement with all representative bodies.

I also take note of the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, but the existing work of HMICFRS, at a national level, means that a further national review would be duplicative. As I mentioned earlier, HMICFRS helps to identify what works and where improvement is needed. These reports are vital tools and we have no doubt that the leaders of services identified as requiring improvement or inadequate will take these findings very seriously and take urgent action to improve performance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, spoke about governance in the London Fire Brigade. I highlight the fire, resilience and emergency planning committee, which has been set up to scrutinise how the London Fire Commissioner is exercising his functions. There is considerable value in a single point of accountability.

Finally, I turn to the future. We are committed to meaningful reform and change across the services. Inquiry findings and independent inspection show that further improvements are needed. Alongside action from services, the Government have an important part to play. The fire reform White Paper, published in May, set out reform proposals on three themes—people, professionalism and governance. Of particular relevance are proposals for measures such as placing a code of ethics on a statutory basis, introducing a mandatory oath, further developing direct entry schemes, and introducing mandatory training for leaders within the services.

I will not prejudge the consultation findings as we are carefully considering all the responses. However, our White Paper clearly demonstrates our ambitions to address cultural issues in fire and rescue services. It will also address the important points on governance raised by my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. We will publish the Government’s response to the consultation in due course.

In closing, I reiterate my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, for securing this debate, and to all those who have spoken today. London Fire Brigade’s culture review highlighted some truly terrible incidents of racism and misogyny. It is absolutely right that this House has devoted time to this issue. I pay tribute once more to those who have told their stories and enabled a light to be shone on these matters. This must be a watershed moment: action is needed and we are committed to pursuing a major programme of fire reform.

There are, of course, a great many people across the fire and rescue sector who, as many noble Lords noted, perform their duties with courage, skill and professionalism. Both they and the public deserve a service of which we can all be proud. Achieving that is a key focus for the Government.

Immigration Skills Charge (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Murray of Blidworth]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17 October and 1 November be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 5 December.

Motions agreed.

X-Rays: Child Refugees

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Prashar]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the ethical considerations of the use of X-rays to determine the age of child refugees seeking asylum in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

The Home Office Chief Scientific Adviser convened an independent age estimation science advisory committee to provide the department with independent advice on the ethics and implementation of different scientific approaches to age assessment. No official decisions have been made on the use of scientific methods, and the use of X-rays specifically would need to be independently justified and approved under the Justification of Practices Involving Ionising Radiation Regulations 2004.

[Baroness Prashar (CB)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer, but can he say when the report will be completed and published?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The report is still under evaluation. I am afraid there is no estimate at the moment for the production of the report.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I have twice recently through Written Questions tried to find out whether the Government will publish the report of the advisory committee. Both answers—which were almost identical—avoided answering the question. Could the Minister therefore tell us now whether the Government will publish this key report and, if not, why not?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As I said, the report is being considered and a decision on publication will be made in due course.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the British Dental Association is opposed to dental X-rays being used because of their inaccuracy. Other organisations such as the BMA agree. During the passage of what became Nationalities and Borders Act, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, the Minister at the time, acknowledged this lack of accuracy by saying that

“assessments are not of themselves accurate”.—[Official Report, 8/3/22; col. 1280.]

There was no dentist on the age estimation science advisory committee. Do the Government understand that both their own Minister and dentists disagree that this should be one of the methods used to assess age?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The answer is no. By way of background, I remind the noble Baroness that, between 2016 and September 2022, there were 7,357 asylum cases where age was disputed and subsequently resolved, in which half the individuals—3,696—were found to be adults. At least 27 other European countries use scientific or medical methods as part of their age assessment process. The most common method by far internationally is the use of one or more X-rays, usually dental, wrist, clavicle or knee, although MRI scans, CT scans and physical or psychological examination by a doctor are also reported. The implementation of SAA across Europe varies enormously, with different methods or combinations of methods, data outputs and timing, and the use of negative interference.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, given that 12 EU countries do not allow any asylum applications from Albania on the grounds that Albania is a democratic and aspirational country, why do we not do the same?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Although I am tempted to address my noble friend’s topic, which is slightly off the topic of this Question, I will say only that the response to the problem of Albanian young men crossing the channel is being considered speedily by the department, and policies will be formulated shortly.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, it is an understatement to say that the use of X-rays to assess the age of children is like using a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut: it not only exposes children to harmful radiation but damages our image in the wider world. Would the Minister agree that traumatic events such as seeing near and dear ones killed and homes destroyed can visibly age people, including children, and that a country that is not even in the top 10 of those giving asylum per head of population should eschew this demeaning practice?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I disagree with the noble Lord. As I have already said, there is clear evidence that many people claim to be a minor when they are not. Clear safeguarding issues arise if a child is inadvertently treated as adult and, equally, if an adult is wrongly accepted as a child and placed in accommodation with younger children to whom they could present a risk.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has just told us that the Government are assessing the evidence. Can he tell us what assessment they have made of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health? Its members are experts in this area and it has said that the use of X-rays for age assessment does not work and is unethical.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The international experience would tend to suggest that that is not the case. The position adopted by the department is that age assessment is one option on a menu of options available for the assessment of age; there is no suggestion that the assessment of age will be undertaken, at this stage and in the present state of the science, simply on a scientific assessment.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

Would my noble friend the Minister not agree with me that this has been a problem for a considerable period of time? When I was in the Home Office, we also had difficulties with this matter, but the rules are quite clear: minors are entitled to support in a way that those who are overage are not. So, although it is regarded as being rather unfair to use X-rays, and maybe even dangerous, does my noble friend not agree that at least we have to apply those rules and find ways of applying them that are as fair as possible?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. I can assure the House that we will ensure that scientific methods are implemented in such a way as to be compliant with the existing regulatory and statutory frameworks governing safety. I entirely agree with the sentiment of my noble friend’s question.

[The Lord Bishop of Carlisle]

My Lords, further to that answer, in determining what constitutes an appropriate scientific method of age assessment, can the Minister assure us that any future methods will be formally approved by the relevant medical body before they come into use?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Plainly they will be formally approved by the advisory committee to the Home Secretary, and one suggests that the views of relevant professional bodies will be of great weight in making such a decision.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, as a sitting magistrate I occasionally have to do age deeming, both in youth court and in adult court. Sometimes we have reports from social workers and sometimes—although rarely—we get expert reports. In the training I received, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, the central message I got was that it was ultimately a judicial decision and that all forms of report, be they from social workers or scientific reports, have quite large elements of doubt within them and the decision is ultimately a judicial one. Does the noble Lord agree?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

In the context of decisions made in magistrates’ courts, I agree that it is a judicial decision. In the context of asylum-seeking people who say that they are minors, the question then falls to the Secretary of State to determine whether they should be treated as a minor—and sadly, as I say, experience suggests that a large number of people have suggested that they are minors in order to take advantage of the perhaps more beneficial regime. It is very important that those people, for the reasons that I have already given the House, are weeded out by such a fair system as we can determine.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I think I heard the Minister say about a report that a decision on publication will be made in due course. Can he tell the House whether that is a decision on whether to publish or when to publish?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

At the moment, the answer is both.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, the British Dental Association has written to all of us saying that X-rays carry a small risk of possible long-term physical harm and that the risk is cumulative and successive exposures increase the risk, which means that each exposure over a lifetime must be clinically justified. Over my lifetime I have had more than 20 X-rays from dentists and have never been warned of this cumulative risk. Can my noble friend explain why the BDA is so worried about a single X-ray of someone claiming asylum who looks 22, especially when the BDA says that it can tell the age to within four years with 95% accuracy? So it might well show that someone was younger than they looked and be to their benefit.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend that it is an unusual position for the BDA to adopt.

Immigration Skills Charge (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Murray of Blidworth]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Immigration Skills Charge (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations make some simple but important amendments to the Immigration Skills Charge Regulations 2017.

The immigration skills charge incentivises UK businesses to take a long-term view of investment and training in the domestic workforce. It serves to address historic under-investment in training and over-reliance on cheap migrant labour by UK employers. The charge is paid by employers who sponsor migrants on skilled worker visas or global business mobility visas as senior or specialist workers. The charge is paid when the employer issues a certificate of sponsorship. They pay £1,000 per migrant per year for large businesses, or a reduced fee of £364 for small businesses and charities. In the last fiscal year, the charge raised £349 million. This funding helps to maintain the UK’s skills budgets. As education and skills are devolved matters, a portion of the income is shared with each of the devolved nations. It is distributed using the formula devised by Lord Barnett.

While it remains important that the charge is applied to most employers utilising migrant labour, there are good reasons to make exceptions in specific circumstances. For example, workers are currently exempt if they enter the UK for under six months, because they are unlikely to be filling a skills shortage. These regulations will exempt two new cohorts from the charge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to the regulations. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about the SI being interesting for what it does not say as much as for what it does say. I have a couple of brief questions for the Minister; I will make some longer remarks on the next SI.

The SI has been through the other place, so we accept it, but we have certain questions about it. Why have the Government come to the conclusion that these exemptions are needed? In line with the point from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about what the SI does not say, what are the Government’s plans, at the same time as bringing forward exemptions such as these, to ensure that there are excellent training and opportunities for our resident workforce? How does this SI fit with the stated, explicit intention of the Home Secretary and the Government to reduce levels of migration, something which we have contested?

As the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, mentioned, an impact assessment for the SI has not been published. The Minister gave some limited explanation, but I would like to know why not, and how will the impacts of the changes in this SI be monitored if an impact assessment is regarded as unnecessary or indeed if one appears in future? We have no idea where we are without impact assessments.

For example, these changes are designed to increase the number of skilled migrants in this area. How many skilled migrants have there been under the scheme so far? With no impact assessment, how can we know how successful this charging scheme has been since it was introduced in 2017? It is supposed to incentivise employers to invest in training and upskilling the resident workforce and reduce reliance on migrant workers. As the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, says, without the impact assessment, how do we know that the Government have achieved their own policy objective? The charge was introduced to discourage employers from seeking the skills they needed abroad. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, that was the whole purpose. How do we know it has been successful?

What the Government have done is say that they need a couple of further exemptions to plug a skills gap that they have identified. The charge rate is £349 million a year. How is that money spent? From my reading, it appears that it just goes into an amorphous pot of money. How is that used to address the skills gap in the UK? There are skills shortages which we are seeking to plug through this skills exemption scheme, among other measures. Alongside that, there is the paradox that there are huge numbers of unskilled jobs which are unfilled. How will the Government deal with the apparent paradox of a skills shortage and yet millions of unfilled, unskilled jobs? Whatever the SI says, that is surely the policy gap and issue that the Government need to address.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions from the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Coaker, and for the opportunity to address some of the questions I have been asked.

I start with the point from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on the effect of relaxing immigration controls—if I have paraphrased that part of his question correctly. I acknowledge his concerns that creating new exemptions to the immigration skills charge appears contrary to the objectives of reducing net migration and ensuring that employers prioritise investment in resident workers. These are targeted exemptions, however. The Prime Minister recently spoke of the need to promote innovation in the economy and we think it sensible to ensure that sustained-growth businesses benefit from some easement of the usual requirements of the immigration system. That is why we have introduced the scale-up visa and why a disapplication of this charge is part of that package.

Similarly, we wish to promote cross-border trade and inward investment from overseas, and the rules that apply to movements of intra-company transferees fall within the scope of trade negotiations. In the case of the EU, we reached a reciprocal agreement that such charges should not apply to intra-company movements, and UK businesses with a presence in the EU will benefit from the certainty that that agreement provides.

I will address the point raised by both the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Coaker, on the impact assessment. Clearly, the immigration skills charge is a tax and it is therefore not subject to a formal impact assessment process. The Government have considered this matter carefully and any impacts will be minor. The scale-up visa route is new and was never planned to be subject to the charge; as such, a waiver is in place and so its exemption will not contribute to any reduction in revenue.

The number of EU intra-company workers who will be exempted from the charge is expected to be about 2,000 annually. This will account for a reduction of income in the region of £3.3 million per year—less than 1% of the total annual income from the charge.

I turn to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on the Explanatory Memorandum and its attestation on the European convention. Paragraph 5.1 reads,

“The Minister for Immigration, Tom Pursglove, has made the following statement regarding Human Rights: ‘In my view the provisions of the Immigration Skills Charge (Amendment) Regulations 2022 are compatible with the Convention rights.’”


I submit that he was the correct person to make the declaration at the time that it was made.

I turn to the question of reciprocal benefit with the European Union. It is understood that arrangements are being made in various parts of the EU, including France, where a €200 charge for British intra-company workers is being removed to comply with obligations under the agreement.

A general question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, was on how the money is spent on skills. The money is paid into the Consolidated Fund and then allocated to the devolved nations in accordance with the Barnett formula, as I said. The skills budget is well known to the noble Lord and is used, in that way, to alleviate any skills deficit.

The costs of collection was one issue touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. The Home Office publishes annual accounts setting out financial details, including the total costs for collection of the immigration skills charge and immigration civil penalties. For the financial year 2021-22, the cost associated with collection was £7.7 million. Details relating to what is included within the cost of collection are also contained in the annual accounts report. The costs include payment of handling charges associated with collecting the immigration skills charge, as well as the cost of staff involved in administering the charge and preparing the trust statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

Just to take up the points that the Minister kindly referred to, he said that this would not involve additional costs. Surely an impact assessment would have talked about how much take-up there would be. If the take-up is different, the costs will be different, because more people will seek the relief. Without empirical examples, we do not know.

The Minister said that the relevant Minister was correct when he said that this was compatible with the European convention. I would have thought this was a legal matter and should have had a report from the Attorney-General, rather than a Minister who was implicitly involved in it.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I will deal first with the point about the impact assessment. As I say, as a matter of practice on taxes, the requirement to hold an impact assessment in the sense described by the noble Lord is not normally followed. However, as I say, the department closely scrutinised this question and came to the conclusions I already outlined.

On the obligation to the European Convention on Human Rights at paragraph 5 of the Explanatory Memorandum, Section 19 of the Human Rights Act requires a Minister presenting a piece of legislation to certify whether it is compatible. It is not normal practice that that attestation is signed by the Attorney-General. Plainly, all these matters are subject to legal advice, as the noble Lord would expect.

Motion agreed.

Immigration (Persons Designated under Sanctions Regulations) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Murray of Blidworth]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Immigration (Persons Designated under Sanctions Regulations) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to present these draft regulations to the Committee. This instrument amends existing regulations that relate to the immigration consequences for someone who is designated or sanctioned under the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, which I shall call the sanctions Act. If noble Lords will indulge me, I will first set out some background to sanctions, in particular the immigration sanctions, also known as travel bans, with which these regulations are concerned.

The UK is bound by travel bans imposed by a resolution of the United Nations Security Council and can impose its own travel bans under the sanctions Act. In the vast majority of cases, travel bans are imposed on individuals who are outside the UK and have no connection with it. A travel ban has an effect on a person’s immigration status; subject to the UK’s obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and the refugee convention of 1951, they cannot enter or remain here.

The 2020 regulations provide a mechanism for a person who is lawfully in the UK to make a human rights or protection claim before a travel ban made under the sanctions Act impacts their immigration status. They are then exempt from the effect of the travel ban while the claim is considered and refusal of such a claim gives rise to an in-country right of appeal before the immigration and asylum chamber of the First-tier Tribunal.

Where a person is not subject to a travel ban but is making a human rights or protection claim under the Immigration Rules, they benefit from a similar protection. However, in contrast to the exemption provided to sanctioned persons, they cannot leave the UK or the common travel area and return simply on the basis of a claim lodged before their departure. We are therefore now in the perverse situation where someone subject to a travel ban benefits from more generous protections than someone who is not.

I turn to the purpose of these regulations, which is to align the approach and correct this anomaly. The Government have considered how to address this and concluded that it is right that, when a travel ban is imposed under the sanctions Act, people lawfully in the UK are exempt from its effect while their human rights or protection claim is considered.

However, when a sanctioned person leaves the UK, that exemption should end. Any action taken in respect of the person’s immigration status will be in accordance with our international obligations. These regulations therefore ensure consistency across the immigration system and that the effectiveness of our domestic sanctions regime is not compromised. I commend this instrument to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation and for the Explanatory Memorandum. It is clearly important that the two processes—whether or not someone is eligible to have their immigration status accepted and whether or not they are subject to a sanction—should be kept separate. Can the Minister tell us whether there have already been any cases where these have become entangled? Why was this not picked up when the sanctions legislation went through the House? I recall our debates on that and do not remember this being flagged, although I remember that we had to sort out quite a number of inadvertent challenges in that legislation.

The Home Office states that this draft SI would “address a discrepancy” whereby provisions designed to ensure compliance with the UK’s international obligations, which the noble Lord has laid out, put people subject to an immigration sanction “in a better position” than people making human rights or protection claims under existing immigration rules. Once more, as with the other SIs this afternoon, that is a very interesting use of language: a discrepancy being in effect a mistake.

Again, I express my sympathy with officials, because of course these things happen. When departments have to shift away from their main aims at the same time as unscrambling legislation from our EU membership over 40 years, it is not surprising that this happens. I express sympathy with the officials who have had to deal with it, as I and the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, did in debates on the previous SIs.

I note that we have four officials here, who otherwise could be working on more substantial matters. I ask again, as I did in the previous debate: if we need such an SI to be processed with the manpower that we have here, how many more would we have to deal with if we removed the amount of secondary legislation that the Government propose and then had to sort out all the discrepancies that might creep in as a result? Given that 40 years would have to be unscrambled in the space of about a year, does he not think that that is rather unwise? There is nothing about leaving the EU which necessitates that, regardless of what his colleague implied. The Minister may have in his notes that same line as the rebuttal.

Leaving the EU is one thing but chucking out babies with bathwater when you do not intend to is clearly another. It happens so easily, as we can see from all these SIs this afternoon—all these discrepancies. I hope the Minister will reflect on that. This particular SI seems straightforward and we support it, but I look forward to his wider response.

--- Later in debate ---

Many of these SIs pass with limited involvement from noble Lords, but this small SI deals with a very important part of our Immigration Rules and laws and deserves a little reflection by us all. I will appreciate the Minister’s answers to my questions, and no doubt he will also respond to those of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, in due course.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the considered debate and the contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker.

I entirely agree that this is an important SI and am grateful for the support shown for it. It clearly closes an unfortunate lacuna that had been revealed. In answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, the discrepancy came to light as a consequence of a decision to impose designations in March. Clearly, the Committee will not expect me to go into the facts of individual cases, but that was the genesis of the regulation. Unfortunately, when sanctions are brought in at pace to achieve the vital objectives outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, mistakes can occur in drafting. This was such an instance. It cannot be right that we let these people have a better position than those who would ordinarily make use of the asylum and humanitarian protection schemes. The cases are necessarily quite entangled, and obviously, as I have already said, I will not go into the facts surrounding them.

Travel bans are used to restrict the movements of those whose behaviour is considered unacceptable by the international community, those who are associated with regimes that threaten the sovereignty or independence of neighbouring countries, those who would seek to do harm, those who would seek to shelter themselves or their ill-gotten gains in other countries, and those whose aim is to profit from human suffering. The UK does not ignore its other international obligations. Those subject to a travel ban who claim fear of persecution or breach of their fundamental rights have the opportunity to make a claim before we take action to remove them from the UK. They have their statutory right of appeal against a decision to refuse their claim. If the appeal succeeds, the travel ban does not apply, meaning that they will not be removed or required to leave. It cannot be right that when sanctions can be imposed on someone, they can then come and go as they please, abusing our hospitality. Should they choose to leave the UK without a resolution on their claim, they should not find themselves in a more generous position than others.

In answer to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on the overall spread of Russian sanctions, I can confirm that, together with our international partners, we have imposed the largest and most severe package of sanctions ever imposed on a major economy. The UK alone has sanctioned 1,200 individuals and over 120 entities since the start of the invasion, including 20 banks with global assets worth £940 billion and over 130 oligarchs with a combined net worth of over £140 billion, as well as introducing unprecedented trade measures.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Will the Minister repeat the sentence about oligarchs? Did he say million or billion?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I said billion. It is 130 oligarchs, with a net worth of over £140 billion. I share the noble Lord’s astonishment at that figure. We have frozen over £18 billion-worth of Russian assets under the Russia sanctions regime. This represents a vast increase of almost 4,000% from September 2021—a total of £44.5 million—underlining the scale and impact of our response in targeting Putin and his regime.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we will of course continue to stand with Ukraine in support of its right to be a sovereign, independent, democratic nation. Russian aggression cannot be appeased.

To draw matters to a conclusion, as I explained earlier, these regulations simply seek to provide consistency while maintaining the effectiveness of our sanctions regimes and complying with our international obligations. I reassure noble Lords that these regulations protect our sanctions regimes from abuse and provide consistency with the wider immigration system. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Net Migration

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Green of Deddington]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to meet their commitment to reduce net migration, given the estimate by the Office for National Statistics, published on 24 November, that net international migration to the United Kingdom was 504,000 for the year ending June 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

The Government are committed to controlling immigration and ensuring that it works in the UK’s best interests. Our immediate priority is continuing to tackle abuse in the system and prevent dangerous and illegal crossings. In the medium to long term, we will continue to strike a balance between reducing overall net migration and ensuring that businesses have access to the skills that they need.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, half a million immigrants in one year is truly extraordinary: more than the population of Manchester or Edinburgh. Admittedly, that includes 200,000 refugees from Ukraine, Hong Kong and Afghanistan. Even if you allow for that, it is now clear that the Government’s points-based system has opened up nearly half of all full-time jobs to immigrant workers. Will the Government now retighten the requirements for work visas for students and dependants so as to get a grip on the huge wave of immigration that they have so foolishly sparked off and which, rightly, is a very serious concern to many members of the public?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As the noble Lord rightly observes, the net migration figures estimated by the ONS this year reflect the very unusual international circumstances in which we find ourselves. Home Office statistics show that we have helped over 144,000 people from Hong Kong, 144,600 people fleeing the war in Ukraine and nearly 23,000 people from Afghanistan to find safety in the UK. This means that the current set of figures is an outlier. The level of immigration for study visas reflects government policy, in that we are encouraging students from other parts of the world to study at British universities, with the great benefit that brings both to Britain and to those people who have the benefit of a British education.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, overnight briefings on the issue of “safe country” take me back 20 years. Last week’s briefings in relation to overseas students would take us back 60 years. Will the Minister make absolutely clear that those briefings were incorrect—because they were economically illiterate, intellectually unsustainable and incredibly damaging to our education system?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I note what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that, over the last decade, total immigration —which ran at half the level of the last 12 months—was equal to the combined populations of Southampton, Portsmouth, Oxford, Nottingham, Middlesbrough, Leicester, Exeter, Derby and Carlisle? We wonder why we have a housing shortage. Has my noble friend the Minister ever heard those who oppose any tightening of immigration restrictions recognise that they are condemning a whole generation of British-born young people to living at home or in cramped bed-sits until they are middle-aged?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

It may assist my noble friend if I remind the Chamber that work visas are 82% higher than they were in 2019 and that this is in part driven by an increase in health and care visas, which make up 50% of all skilled worker visas issued. Family-related visas are 31% lower than in 2019. It is clear that there is a need for more people in the health and care sector, and visas are awarded in relation to that. That is the reason for these exceptional figures. Again, I point to the fact that the figures this year reflect the problems of coming out of the pandemic and the international conflict that we have had to deal with.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, have I got this right? The Government insist on including students in the immigration statistics. Students form one-third of people coming into the country, thereby artificially inflating the migration numbers. The Government’s reaction is to seek to ban students, harming the higher education sector and the economy. Can they really not think of a better way to manage this, starting by excluding students from the immigration statistics?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that the Government have no plans to ban students.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

Could my noble friend explain why the Government have limited the number of medical school places to 7,500? This deprives several hundreds and maybe thousands of our young people the chance to pursue a medical career. In the last five years, we have recruited 50,000 doctors from overseas, some of whom have come from less-developed countries, which I at least regard as a shameful practice.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I note what my noble friend says, but the level of provision of medical training is a matter for the Department of Health and the Department for Education.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not true that one of the great attractions of this country is that people can come in and get employment without any real problem whatsoever, and that the major error that we have had is the abandonment of the policy we had in 2010 to have a form of identity for every individual in the country? This has now been exposed as a major failing of the then Tory and Lib Dem Government, and something needs to be done to address it.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The Government do not agree that the answer is identity cards.

[Lord Desai (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, should we not recognise that the people who pay thousands of pounds to people to carry them across the channel actually want to come here? They find coming here beneficial, and the economy finds it beneficial when they come. Why do we not have a system in which we distinguish between refugees and economic migrants and welcome economic migrants as a very good thing?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. We have indeed such a system. The points-based immigration system is designed to entice to the UK those workers who wish to come who are qualified by reason of the scheme. The asylum system exists to assist those who are claiming asylum or other protection.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I put it simply to the Minister, following the questions he has had from around the House: would it not be helpful for a Minister of the Crown to stand up at that Dispatch Box and say, “Of course we need rules about migration, but this country benefits enormously from migration, and we should welcome that fact”?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the country benefits vastly from legal migration. Indeed, that is why we have arrangements to achieve that objective.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that there are about a quarter of a million overseas students whom we welcome to this country, but is he also aware that many of those also ask for dependent relatives to be brought in? Surely dependent relatives should not be allowed in. It is the students who require access, not their families.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. The position is that the types of students who are now availing themselves of British educational opportunities tend to be older, and there are restrictions around the provision of visas for family members. They are restricted to those on a postgraduate course—broadly, not undergraduate courses—and to a course of nine months or longer, if the course of study is with an accredited institution with a track record of compliance with immigration requirements. It appears to be the case that, of the visas issued to students and dependants, about one in five go to dependants and there is no reason in the Government’s view to change that position at this time.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has been asked several times a question that, with great respect, he has not answered: why are international students, who bring significant income to our universities and are an ornament to them in many other ways, included in migration statistics, with or without dependants? They distort those statistics, which, frankly, does not serve the Government’s purposes very much. Why are they still part of the immigration statistics? He has not given us an answer to that.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for the opportunity to clarify the position. The ONS prepares these estimates in its own way, and it is utilising on this occasion a new methodology derived from various sources to estimate, effectively, emigration as well as immigration. The choice is taken to include students, for reasons of transparency, and that seems to me entirely sensible. The number of visas issued to students is available to the Home Office as a figure. That is only a part of the picture when considering the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Green, was referring to in his Question, which are of course the estimates provided by the ONS.

Manston Update

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. I am afraid I will repeat not only some of his questions but the many that I have asked the Minister on this issue over the last month.

On 31 October, the Home Secretary said:

“Manston … has very good medical facilities and all protocols have been followed.”—[Official Report, Commons, 31/10/22; col. 649.]

On 27 October, Robert Jenrick, the Immigration Minister, said:

“The basic needs of arrivals are provided … including … medical care.”—[Official Report, Commons, 27/10/22; col. 401.]


When we had the Statement last Thursday, it felt like the Home Office had emptied Manston and dumped unfunded people, unscreened and unvaccinated, without access to their local NHS in their new venues.

It is good that things are starting to change, and that is why I thank the Minister. If he had anything to do with the message that came out on Friday afternoon that the spot accommodation arrangements that prevented people moving from Manston to hotels from accessing GPs have now been changed. It is a shame that it has taken repeated questions to make that happen.

On Saturday morning we heard that the man who died after staying at Manston had died from diphtheria, which was clarified by a PCR test, despite some earlier negative tests. One of the problems with diphtheria is that the symptoms are not always obvious. On 1 November, I asked the Minister whether people were being routinely screened and tested, but it appears that they are still not, let alone being vaccinated.

The spread of infectious diseases was highlighted by Charlie Taylor, Chief Inspector of Prisons, in his unannounced inspection of Manston and Jet Foil at the end of July. The report was published on 1 November, but I am sure that it is still the convention for Ministers to see a draft beforehand. It says:

“Facilities for the management of detainees with COVID or other infectious diseases were poor. Detainees were placed in a claustrophobic portacabin with no clear responsibility assigned for managing their care. Paramedic staff were unsure of any guidance, policy or procedure for the management of infectious diseases.”


What happened after the draft of this advice was seen by Ministers, prior to assurances given by Ministers, from the end of October onwards, that good healthcare and protocols were being followed?

Diphtheria is a notifiable disease because, in unvaccinated people and untreated cases, it has a fatality rate of 5% to 10%. It spreads in overcrowded communities whose health may be compromised for other reasons, which is absolutely typical for asylum seekers. What data is there for how many of the people held at Manston since the middle of October have now been screened, tested and offered vaccinations? The UNHCR, UNICEF and the American CDC all vaccinate refugees and migrant communities, and it is now compulsory if you come into America through the border with Mexico.

On Sunday, the Home Office said that infectious migrants will now be told to isolate in hotel rooms but, prior to this, the only advice about those in hotels was given to hotel staff, not local doctors and certainly not directors of public health. It is good that this is beginning to change.

Yesterday morning, the government webpage entitled “Protecting yourself against diphtheria” was updated—and that too is good. It is important to say that the wider public are not at risk; only people coming into contact with someone with diphtheria are at risk. The guidance now says:

“Everyone arriving to claim asylum in the UK is currently being offered a dose of a diphtheria containing vaccine and a course of antibiotics … to reduce the risk of diphtheria and some other infections.”


This should have been normal practice the moment the first case emerged, so why is it only starting to happen now?

The Statement says that an “enhanced diphtheria vaccination programme” will be “offered to all”. So I ask the Minister what the definition is of “those arriving”: does it cover everyone who has been at or through Manston since the numbers bloomed after Suella Braverman was appointed as Home Secretary, rising from 1,500 to 4,000 in the space of three weeks? Or is it only those currently at Manston? Or will it now be every asylum seeker in the country, as is the case with CDC in America?

I also ask whether those who come through Manston have also been screened for infectious diseases, including diphtheria and scabies? Who will be managing this; will the Home Office be funding screening and vaccinations? I hope so, because local health services should not have to pick up the tab.

The Statement says that “robust screening processes” on arrival will “identify proactively” those with symptoms. However, we know that diphtheria is asymptomatic. Two are currently hospitalised, one person is dead and there are at least 50 confirmed cases. We have had only about 50 cases in the last 10 years in the UK, but the directors of public health in local areas are still struggling to get access to information and resources, from either the Home Office or the UKHSA. When will that happen? If the Minister cannot answer all these questions, please can he write to me with some answers?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

I thank both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their speeches. The Home Secretary and the Minister for Immigration were updated over the weekend by Dame Jenny Harries of the UK Health Security Agency, who confirmed that 50 cases of diphtheria had been reported in asylum accommodation. This had the unfortunate effect of being a consequence of the speed with which Manston had been emptied in response to the earlier concerns about the conditions at Manston. While robust processes and plans have now been put in place, it is right that we remain vigilant. As the noble Baroness observed,

“robust screening processes on … arrival … at Western Jet Foil … to identify proactively those with symptoms of diphtheria”

are in place, and the

“‘round-the-clock’ health facilities at Manston”,

which I previously referred to in this House,

“including emergency department consultants and paramedics”,

remain available to those at Manston and will readily identify conditions that those people may have.

Guidance is also available

“in multiple languages on spotting the symptoms of diphtheria”,

and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for noting that changes have made on the website in an effort to enhance the spread of that message. In addition,

“an enhanced diphtheria vaccination programme, offered to all those arriving at Manston”

is now in place, and

“of those who arrived at the facility this weekend, 100% took up that … offer”.

Further,

“testing for those presenting with symptoms and for close contacts”

of confirmed cases was also available,

“and those testing positive are being isolated in a designated place.”—[Official Report, Commons, 28/11/22; col. 676.]

As the noble Baroness has observed, certain “isolation hotels” have been set up to provide facilities to make that isolation possible and easier for those who need it. Equally, special transport is provided to ensure that they can travel to their place of isolation until the symptoms of the condition have resolved.

On the question asked by both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness in relation to liaison with local health departments, the Home Office’s contracted accommodation providers are contracted to provide a liaison with health services, to provide those residents with health services, and to signpost them to local GPs and other health providers. Local authorities, too, are provided with £3,500 per person to provide their services to those in Home Office accommodation. That, of course, includes public health obligations on local authorities. As the Minister in the other place made clear, the department is going above and beyond the UKHSA baseline by instituting new guidance on the transportation of individuals displaying diphtheria symptoms.

It is clear that this is a very unfortunate consequence of the speed with which Manston was emptied in the run-up to the previous weekend, and steps are now being taken to ensure that all those in accommodation are offered a vaccination for diphtheria. Clearly, there is widespread awareness of the issue now.

On the final point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in relation to the medical facilities at Manston, the comments in July bear no relation to the present position. As I said, I have visited those medical facilities and found them to be very impressive. They are not accommodated in the temporary accommodation to which the noble Baroness referred. Those working in that sphere do a fantastic job, and I thank them for it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The answer is clear from Dame Jenny Harries that those with diphtheria contracted it prior to entering the UK. It seems that the conditions through which they travelled in other countries were such that clearly they were able to contract the condition—and that is most unfortunate.

As to the reason why it has taken us so long to take steps in relation to it, I remind the noble Baroness that comprehensive health screening has been available at Western Jet Foil and Manston. As recently as late October, only five cases of diphtheria were found to be present in the population at Manston, and those were not sent onwards to accommodation without being treated. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, pointed out, diphtheria is one of those conditions which can present without symptoms, so it is difficult to screen for. Further steps are being taken to preclude that occurring, as I have outlined.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the speed at which Manston was emptied was unfortunate—but of course that was not the problem, was it? The problem was the speed at which Manston was crowded, and for how long those people were held like that. Has the Minister in his department seen any embarrassment or even shame at these events?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the reason these problems arose was the speed with which people were crossing the Channel illegally: that gave rise to the condition. The noble Baroness may shake her head, but the reality is that, if these people were not crossing the Channel illegally, the situation would not have occurred.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I share the surprise of the noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, that the Government are trying somehow to claim credit for rapidly emptying Manston. The fact is that it has been a story of incompetence and chaos, followed by panic. However, I particularly want to ask about staff in the hotels that the asylum seekers are living in. I have seen assurances from the Government in the press that it is not a problem for the wider community because most British residents are vaccinated. But I have also seen a concern expressed about eastern European staff in some of those hotels who apparently—I am relying on press reports—were not routinely vaccinated in their home countries against diphtheria. Is this something that the Government are paying attention to, because although we talk about “isolation hotels”, there will be some staff contact and, if it is an airborne disease, those staff could be at risk?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely get the sense of the noble Baroness’s question. The accommodation, as I say, is run by three contractors on behalf of the Home Office and I would sincerely hope that they are aware of their obligations to their staff to ensure that this is the case. I do not know the precise figures, and I can write to the noble Baroness about that.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, Napier barracks in Kent is still being used to house asylum seekers, despite an inspector’s report that said it was not fit for that purpose. Last year, an epidemic of Covid took hold there because of the unsatisfactory accommodation, with up to 24 people in dormitories. Can the Minister assure us that nobody went directly from Manston to Napier; that everybody at Napier is being screened for a disease which he says does not always exhibit symptoms; and that the conditions there are now suitable for people to be held?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Taking that question in reverse order, yes, the conditions are now suitable for those held there. I do not have the answer as to whether people were transferred directly from Manston to Napier barracks: I can make inquiries about that and write to the noble Baroness. As for her final point, on the provision of healthcare at Napier barracks, similarly, those operating that accommodation facility will provide healthcare and signpost healthcare facilities to those who are resident there.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, why will the Government not consider humanitarian visas, where people’s initial application for asylum could be considered in situ and they could be vaccinated against serious diseases before they arrived in the UK?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

It is because the Government believe in encouraging migration via safe and legal routes, and not by those who choose simply to cross the channel in a small boat.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

I do not think the Minister answered the last question, because the whole point is that a humanitarian visa would be a new safe and legal route and it is one for which many of us have argued for quite some time. It would discourage people from travelling by boat. They could apply for a visa before they came and, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, they could also be vaccinated before travelling.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I understood the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, to ask me whether those who had arrived at Manston should be given a humanitarian visa and be inoculated. That is not the case. On the method that the right reverend Prelate asked about, there are safe and legal routes from the countries that were discussed in the earlier topical Oral Question. Those are the routes that are to be utilised.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

If the House will indulge me, I shall clarify my question. The Home Secretary was asked at the Home Affairs Select Committee last week what would happen to a genuine refugee, say from sub-Saharan Africa, where there are no safe and legal routes. Why could someone in that situation not make an initial application in country for a humanitarian visa and be vaccinated in country before they arrive in the UK? The clue in the question I asked previously was “before they arrive in the UK”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The short answer is that that is not the Government’s policy. We have safe and legal routes from the countries that I have already identified, and we do not propose to open any others.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister said in reply to my noble friend Lady Ludford that he hoped that the private sector companies which fulfil the contracts would have a care for their staff. Is that not something that the Government should urgently check into? Do the Government themselves not have an obligation in the quite unusual circumstances we are talking about? Secondly, what arrangements are there for the families of patients—I call them patients quite deliberately, because that is how we should treat them—who are put into isolation? Are the families kept together? The Minister will understand that there is a whole ream of questions like this which the House would like to know the answers to.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As the noble Baroness is aware, the vast majority of those crossing the channel are single young men, so the issue has arisen in relation to single men. I do not know the answer about accommodation for any potential family members, but I will certainly ask the department and inform the noble Baroness of the outcome.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

May I have an answer to my question about shame or embarrassment?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am not sure that that is in order.

Hotel Asylum Accommodation: Local Authority Consultation

Lord Murray of Blidworth Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, with 127,026 asylum applications outstanding and only 4% of people who have arrived by small boat having had a decision, is it any wonder the system is in chaos? The Government are scrambling around looking for hotel accommodation as an emergency response without proper consultation with local authorities, sometimes giving them only 24 hours’ notice of placing asylum seekers in their area. Is that not the case? Is it not also the case that, as a consequence, there are allegations of dirty, unsafe accommodation with, in one report, 500 rape alarms being issued? Most disgracefully of all, unaccompanied children are going missing, 222 so far. Where are they and how many more are there? It seems we cannot even protect our children.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is entirely right that, of the small-boat arrivals in 2021, 96% are still awaiting an initial decision, as the Minister in the other place said. However, we made more than 14,500 decisions in the year to June 2021, concentrating on deciding older claims, high-harm cases, cases with extreme vulnerability, and children.

The noble Lord alluded to the notification of local authorities. Clearly there has been difficulty in notifying local authorities. That has been a real focus for the department. I am unsure whether he will have seen the “Dear colleague” letter that went around the Members of the other place, notifying them that it will absolutely be the rule that they get at least 24 hours’ notice, but it is hoped to be longer than that. I would be very grateful to hear from any noble Lords who are concerned by any hotels they may be aware of where due notice has not been given to the local authority and to the Member for the relevant constituency.

As to the point about unaccompanied children going missing from hotels, any child going missing is extremely serious, which is why we work closely with local authorities and the police to operate a robust missing persons protocol to ensure that their whereabouts are known and that they are safe. We work to ensure that vulnerable children are provided with appropriate placements for their needs, and we have changed the national transfer scheme so that all local authorities with children’s services must support young people. Home Office and contractor staff identify cohorts of young people considered at greater risk of going missing and, of course, risk assessments and safety plans are undertaken on arrival in mitigation of this risk.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister knows that I have raised the health service provision for those at Manston and when they have been dispersed elsewhere. Today, I am hearing from local authorities and directors of public health locally that scabies is increasing. It is racing through the hotels where these asylum seekers have been sent. In some places, the rate is 70% because they do not have the clean clothes and linen necessary for the clothes that have mite infestation to be thoroughly washed. Worse, the Home Office and Clearsprings have refused to provide specialist creams at those hotels for asylum seekers to use. Even worse, because of the scheme under which those being dispersed from Manston come, the usual grant to GPs is not made available, which means there is no money locally, so asylum seekers can use only 111 or 999. Will the Minister agree to meet to discuss this as a matter of urgency? I appreciate that health is not in his brief, but there are some holes, particularly about health funding and stopping this mass infestation of scabies.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Certainly on my visit to Manston a few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to meet the healthcare staff and visit the healthcare centre. I assure the noble Baroness that concern is paid to the health of those passing through Manston, and it is hoped that any conditions they suffer from at that time are treated, in particular with the topical creams that she suggests. I am concerned by what she said about what is happening with Clearsprings, but I am afraid that without a bit more detail, which I am sure she will provide, I cannot answer now, but I will do that. As to a meeting, certainly I am aware that she has raised this issue a number of times, and I am happy to have a meeting with her if that would assist.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My question follows on from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in referring to the company Clearsprings Ready Homes, which has a 10-year contract to supply hotel accommodation. A couple of weeks ago it emerged that the company’s profits were up sixfold in the past year and that three directors had shared dividends of almost £28 million. I contrast that with the asylum seekers in hotels who get £8.24 each week to buy essentials, which amounts to little more than £1 a day. Does the Minister think that money going in dividends is the best way for government money to be spent?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Obviously it is not for me to comment on the entirety of the commercial operations of Clearsprings; nor do I know the extent to which the contracts for asylum accommodation are responsible for its profit margin, so it would not be appropriate for me to answer that question.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on the Home Secretary’s evidence yesterday in the other place, where she seemed to suggest that the only way that many asylum seekers could claim asylum in the UK is on arrival in the UK? In other words, the only way for genuine refugees and asylum seekers to claim asylum is to pay people smugglers to cross the channel and then claim asylum in the UK. Is the Government’s policy not feeding the business model of people smugglers rather than trying to dismantle it?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

No, it is absolutely to the contrary. Safe and legal routes, such as the ones we operate in Afghanistan, and in Iraq and Jordan in the past, were designed to provide an opportunity for genuine refugees to make asylum claims to come to the UK. The idea that people can promote their own claims over those of others and cross themselves into the country in order to claim asylum is simply not a sensible way of running an asylum system. It is clearly contrary to the public interest that those able to afford to pay people smugglers are able to come here and claim asylum. That is why the safe and legal routes are the only proper way of delivering asylum sanctuary.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

It is now a month since the report that there were 222 unaccounted-for children, as the noble Lord. Lord Coaker estimated. These children have come from a traumatic experience. How many, as of today, are unaccounted for in their location?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I do not have that information to hand. The positive news, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, is that there are still no people at Manston. Everyone has been transferred into hotel accommodation. As I say, those who are unaccompanied minors are cared for separately in specially provided accommodation with special support.