Patrick Finucane Report

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to refer us back to what was happening in Northern Ireland in the 1980s and the atmosphere and pressures of that time, and to talk about the important work that agents do in countering terrorism. Of course, we should continue that work, properly regulated and dealt with, as I argued earlier. We have to be careful, though, because if we are proud of the health of our democracy, the rule of law and our system, we have to expect the highest standards when we look back. We cannot just say, “Well, bad things happened. Other people did bad things, we did bad things”. We have to be better than that, and that is what the report and our response should be about.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I ask the Prime Minister which Ministers he intends to consult on the matter? He was right to point out the destruction that the Provisional IRA wreaked upon people’s lives in Northern Ireland, but there is no equivalence between what a terrorist organisation does and what a state does. It is important that the Attorney-General should be involved in looking carefully at the report, because there might well have to be prosecutions arising from it.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes exactly the point that I was trying to make a moment ago. We cannot try to draw an equivalence between a state and a terrorist organisation. We have to have the highest standards, and it is right to ask that we live up to them.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about what others should do, it is important in our country that the prosecuting authorities and the police are independent and go where the evidence takes them. I am sure they will want to study the report carefully, because it has new information and new facts and makes some uncomfortable points about what parts of the RUC and other organisations did.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful. We will now move on with rather greater dispatch, I hope.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

2. What plans he has to publish his conclusions on legacy issues in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State and I have been meeting a range of political parties and victims’ groups to discuss the issue of dealing with the past. So far, we have not found consensus. While the Government have a role to play, the way forward on this matter must come from within Northern Ireland.

[Paul Murphy]

The Secretary of State is of course right that solutions must come from within Northern Ireland, but he will realise that there is now widespread opposition to his proposal for a semi-inquiry into the Pat Finucane case. Does he understand that by going ahead with his proposal, £1.5 million is likely to be wasted, and will he now rethink?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question, and I pay tribute to him, as I did last week in the statement. I am sorry that we disagree on this. He committed to a public inquiry, but he then passed the Inquiries Act 2005, which was the stumbling block. We inherited a complete impasse; this was going nowhere. We think that by accepting the conclusion of the Stevens inquiry, which is possibly the largest police inquiry in British history, and by having the family to Downing street for a fulsome apology, we can now concentrate on what is really important, which I raised with the family when I first met them—namely, to get to the truth as fast possible. That is why we have gone down this route of appointing a well-respected international lawyer and giving him very wide powers to get to the truth by December next year.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Before the Minister leaps up and tells me how I have voted on various debates on the House of Lords over the years, let me say that, like my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband), I eventually voted for a 100% elected House, but for very different reasons. According to a rather bizarre tactic—I must confess that I did not quite see the logic of it—if I voted for that, the establishment of a directly elected House of Lords would somehow be prevented. [Laughter.] There it is; we were told that at the time.

Nevertheless, I want to put on record that I do not believe in a directly elected House of Lords. I am not attracted to the idea because I believe that we would elect a rival to this House of Commons, and I do not think that we would have a revising Chamber anywhere near as good as the one that we have now, although I do believe that there is a strong case for reforms of the House of Lords as it stands.

A Member mentioned Australia earlier. The lower House is elected by alternative vote—that is another story—and the upper House by single transferable vote, but over the years there have been serious differences of opinion and almost gridlock between the two Houses on various issues such as climate change. That could well occur were the upper House in this Parliament to be elected. The Prime Minister’s tutor Vernon Bogdanor, who recently wrote a book on the coalition and constitutional change, has said that in the event of disputes between the two Houses,

“a directly elected second Chamber would decrease, not increase, the power of the voter, by insulating Parliament even further from the voter than it is already.”

I am not persuaded in that regard.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and others have observed that the House of Lords does not contain the sort of expertise that it might have years ago, and that today it is packed with place-people from various parties. I am not sure that I agree with that. In last week’s debate in the other place, Lord Howe of Aberavon cited contributions to a debate on the national health service by

“two former deans of university medical schools, a practising dentist, a consultant obstetrician, a consultant paediatrician, a former GP, a former professor of nursing, a former director of Age Concern and the president of Mencap.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 June 2011; Vol. 728, c. 1195.]

I do not believe that a House of Lords whose Members were elected in the way suggested could provide such expertise.

[Conor Burns]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that even if the number of experts diminished over time with the increased number of appointees, that would be an argument not for the abolition of the House of Lords but for returning to having more people of expertise appointed to the House of Lords?

[Paul Murphy]

It is an argument for reform, not abolition. The bishops are another case in point. I am a Roman Catholic, not an Anglican, but I believe that the bishops of the Church of England offer a tremendous amount of expertise and experience to Parliament, and that they should still be Members of the House of Lords.

[Duncan Hames]

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that bishops voting in the House of Lords adds in any way to the expertise they are able to offer through what they say in that Chamber, and might they find it easier to remain in that Chamber if they were to desist from taking part in Divisions?

[Paul Murphy]

That is possible; obviously, such matters would have to be addressed.

Whatever our views about the Bill, I have to say to my Front-Bench colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), that I entirely agree with the Opposition Front Bench on a number of points—for example, a 15-year term of election is completely dotty. I hope that will be reconsidered, because it would give Members a long time in the other place without any proper mandate. As they are to be paid and their job will therefore be a profession, most of them will, presumably, be about 51 years of age upon election now that the pension rules have been changed, so that they can retire at 65. I hope that that proposal will be jettisoned, therefore.

I want to conclude with a few comments about process. When this House considered the constituencies Bill, the coalition was not a bit interested in consensus. Every time contributors to the debates both here and in the other place talked about the need for major constitutional changes to have a bedrock of consensus, the coalition Government refused to take any notice, but now that they want their way on the House of Lords consensus is the order of the day. I wonder whether this is a consensus of convenience, therefore. I believe that my own Front-Bench team should be rather sceptical about a Joint Committee and about being drawn into a consensus that in my view is convenient. We should not be gulled by that, and I think this particular constitutional change needs more than a Committee; it probably needs a royal commission to deal with it, rather than a Committee of politicians. Whatever sort of body it is, however, we must be very careful.

In all the years I have been a Member of this House, there has been a free vote on reform of the House of Lords. That should be the case whatever the manifesto commitments—and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) that our manifesto commitment fell when we lost the election—and whatever the policies of the parties. Over the years, there were manifesto commitments and party principles and policies, but there was always a free vote for all the parties in this House of Commons and in the other place, and I believe that there should be a free vote on this issue.

Finally, I wish to raise the referendum issue. Some 100 years ago when the then Liberal Government introduced their first reform of the House of Lords, there was, to all intents and purposes, a referendum in that there was a general election on a single issue: whether the House of Lords should be reformed. Therefore, it is completely logical that we, too, should have a referendum on reform of the House of Lords. We had a referendum on whether we should remain a member of what was then known as the Common Market. We had referendums on elected Assemblies in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. We had a referendum only this year on whether the powers of the Welsh Assembly should be extended—they were—and we also had a referendum on the alternative vote.

Lord Ashdown referred in his speech in the other place and in The Times today to people who hold my views on the matters under discussion as war horses, and to those who agree with me on the alternative vote as dinosaurs. Whichever animals we might be, the dinosaurs won the argument with the people on the alternative vote, and the war horses have the following in common with the dinosaurs: we want the people of this country to decide the constitutional future of this country in respect of the House of Lords, so let us have a referendum on this Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. We take applications for PPW licences extremely seriously and they are looked into in great detail and independently assessed. I am aware of the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers and we will get back to him once we have all the necessary details.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

4. What progress has been made on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, progress on this issue has been difficult in the absence of any agreement within Northern Ireland on how best to proceed. We want to see the issue resolved and we will be taking the views of the new Executive, political parties and others in Northern Ireland on how best to move matters forward.

[Paul Murphy]

I am grateful for that answer. I want to pay my own tribute to the late David Cairns, who was a fine Minister and a fine man.

With a new Executive and new Assembly in Northern Ireland, and as this issue is a fundamental part of the Good Friday agreement and the political process over the years, will the Minister undertake to try to seek consensus among all the political parties in Northern Ireland as soon as he can?

[Mr Swire]

The Secretary of State and I have been very clear. We said we would return to this after the election of the new Assembly, which has now happened. The right hon. Gentleman might not be aware of the commission on a UK Bill of Rights, and the Lord Chancellor has written to the First Minister asking for two people from Northern Ireland to advise on the implications for Northern Ireland. The Executive need to initiate a parallel process to come to some consensus on what specific rights that recognise Northern Ireland’s particular circumstances might look like.

West Lothian Question

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve, as always, under your Gower chairmanship, Mr Caton. I welcome the opportunity to have this debate for a number of reasons. It gives me the chance to reflect on an issue that was important in the 10 years that I spent as a territorial Minister in both the Wales Office and the Northern Ireland Office. In the case of Northern Ireland, my job was to oversee the talks that led to the establishment of the Assembly and the Executive. In Wales, I worked with the Welsh Assembly in the first decade of its life. I have, therefore, a particular personal interest in this issue.

Secondly, the Government, it seems—I am not quite sure that I have seen the detail; I am certain that the Minister will enlighten us later—have called for a commission to look at constitutional issues, and specifically the West Lothian question. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) makes his winding-up speech, he can tell us about the nature of that commission—who will sit on it; when it will meet; whether its recommendations are likely to be binding; whether, although this would be unusual, it will be consensual—and all the details that surround the issue.

Thirdly, the constitutional issues that have affected Wales as a consequence of the Government’s policies have had little chance of being debated in the House of Commons. Those issues affecting Wales—the loss of its Members of Parliament and other issues—did not reach the stage of being debated on the Floor of the House, and as you will know, Mr Caton, we were refused a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to discuss those important issues of constitutional change.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

On the consensual nature of the commission, what hope does my right hon. Friend hold out that it will be consensual, bearing in mind the constitutional changes of the past eight months, including the alternative vote, which is simply to please the Liberals, and the equalisation of seats, which is simply to please the Tories?

[Paul Murphy]

None. The Welsh dimension is important, but the West Lothian question affects Northern Ireland and Scotland as well. The issue is of particular interest to Welsh Members because, as the Chamber will know, a few weeks ago the referendum result in Wales was a decisive vote in favour of increased powers and the right of the Assembly to pass its own legislation. Of course, the West Lothian question was being debated and discussed well before that.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I have quite significant sympathy with elements of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, particularly as so many of the Welsh-related issues in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill were not even debated in the House, which was highly regrettable. Equally, surely he must understand that one of the problems with the West Lothian question is the idea of over-representation of particular parts of the UK. Does he feel that it is sustainable for Wales to be so massively over-represented in the United Kingdom Parliament, given its population? Does he feel that it would be wrong to have a reduction on a pro rata basis, to ensure that all parts of the UK were equally represented in this place?

[Paul Murphy]

I do not think that Wales is over-represented. I think that in the House of Commons, Wales is represented differently from England, as are Scotland and Northern Ireland. I will come to that in a moment, because the issue of how Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland exist constitutionally within a United Kingdom is very important. That is why I think that Wales’s current representation is right. When the next election comes—assuming that it will be in four or more years’ time—we will have the lowest number of MPs in Wales since 1832. The hon. Gentleman may recall that in the referendums on devolution in 1997 in Scotland and in Wales, part of the settlement on which the Welsh and Scottish people voted was the retention of the number of MPs for both Scotland and Wales. That was in order to ensure that there was proper representation within the Union. By that I mean decent representation, with advice being heard; I am not necessarily talking about numbers, though of course if there are more, there is a better voice.

[Mr Field]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand that there is an equally deeply felt concern in England? Not only is there a devolved settlement that gives the Scots a Parliament, and Northern Ireland and Wales an Assembly with additional powers, but there is a relative over-representation, in the sense of fewer constituents for MPs. Does he not see that there is one leg—a rather important leg—of the United Kingdom that feels very much under-represented and unloved, and that that is one of the reasons why the West Lothian question is becoming more high-profile in England?

[Paul Murphy]

It is one hell of a leg, actually, in terms of its size. That is the point; 85% of MPs, 85% of the population, and 85% of the resources spent on public services in the United Kingdom are English. The voices of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, within that enormous big brother, have to be heard, because that is the strength of the Union. I am a unionist with a small “u”; I believe that the Union should be maintained, but it is best maintained by recognising the diversity of our countries and regions within the United Kingdom. A disproportionate loss in Wales of a quarter of our MPs in one fell swoop will, in my view, affect the efficacy and significance of the Union.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Would the right hon. Gentleman not accept that it is not the size of England that matters, but the counties, shires and towns? They are very important, and they are not 85% of England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

No, I do not accept that for one second, because the Union is not an union of shires. The Union is a union of countries and regions: the Province of Northern Ireland, the old Kingdom of Scotland and the old Principality of Wales make up the Union, together with England. I will come to that in a second. The problem of England is difficult—I have no doubt about that—but the maintenance of proper representation, weighted differently for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, helps to maintain that Union. I will come on to the issue of weight in a moment, because on the one hand the Government argue that there should be equal weight for Members of Parliament, but on the other, when we are elected, they argue that we have different weights in the House of Commons.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the resounding yes vote in the recent referendum showed that the people of Wales have accepted devolution and are very happy for the Welsh Assembly to have more powers, and that the process is irreversible? Would it not be possible, if we are looking at a future system for the United Kingdom, to have a system that would embrace not only independent Parliaments in Wales and Scotland, but, possibly, a newly forged link with the Republic of Ireland?

[Paul Murphy]

Yes, indeed. I very much accept my hon. Friend’s point about the result of the referendum. Devolution is unquestionably here to stay. People accept that devolution is the best way to deal with the issues in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

The issue that affects us at the moment, with regard to the West Lothian question, is the so-called English question—the question of English issues. Should Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish MPs vote on what are termed to be specifically English issues in this place? I maintain that there are no such things as absolutely English issues. In the first instance, the money that comes to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is decided by Parliament, which is overwhelmingly English—85% of MPs are English. I quote, for the convenience of hon. Members, the Kilbrandon commission, which met, as many will know, in the 1970s:

“any issue at Westminster involving expenditure of public money is of course of consequence to all parts of the UK, since it may affect the level of taxation and indirectly influences the level of a region’s own expenditure”.

Every time the Barnett formula is used, in each public spending round, the amount reached depends on the amount of money spent in England on public services that are devolved to the other countries. If health spending in England goes up, or education spending in England goes down, that has complete consequences for the budgets of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Financially, there is no such thing as an English issue—they are British issues.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

On that point, would the right hon. Gentleman accept that English constituencies feel that there is great unfairness? We feel under-represented but over-taxed. For example, we wonder why we are subsidising university education for Scottish pupils, and free prescriptions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

The whole business of the devolution settlement is that devolved areas can decide what they spend their money on. It could equally be argued, incidentally, if one lived in north-east England, the midlands or the north-west, and if one were to divide England into regions, that certain regions do better than others. That is a matter not for today’s debate, but for future financial policy. I merely say that when the Barnett formula is applied to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, it is applied on the basis of whether spending in England goes up or down.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

May I add a further complication to my right hon. Friend’s argument? He knows that I represent a Welsh border constituency. One third of my constituents use the Countess of Chester hospital in England; 400 of my constituents work at Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, which is supported by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; Crewe station and the airports at Manchester and Liverpool serve my constituency; constituents go to Chester university and West Cheshire college. Am I not to have a vote or a voice on those things on behalf of my constituents?

[Paul Murphy]

My right hon. Friend wants a vote and will get it. He eloquently expressed my next point, which I will not make because he made it better than I could.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

I apologise for the fact that I have to leave in a moment to chair the Welsh Affairs Committee. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving me this opportunity to say, as a proud Welshman and a Unionist, and in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who made the very point that I wanted to make, that we cannot possibly have a situation where Welsh MPs can tell the English what to do with their health service and education, but English MPs cannot have any say over what goes on in Wales. Surely the answer for all Unionists across the United Kingdom is to give the English their own Parliament, with powers similar to those of the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments, and have some kind of a federal structure to deal with everything else that matters to the UK.

[Paul Murphy]

The issue of whether England, by which I mean English regions—I shall come to that in a second—should have its own regional governments is a different matter. That is, ultimately, the answer to the question. Incidentally, I say this to the hon. Gentleman, who is leaving: I recently read a quotation from a senior Conservative, who said in the 1960s, in a discussion on the West Lothian question—it was not called that at the time—that

“every Member of the House of Commons is equal with every other Member of the House of Commons.”

That was Peter Thorneycroft, who was then the shadow Attorney-General. He was the Member of Parliament for Monmouth, so that will be of interest to this hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). His party had a different view of such things in those days, but I will come to that later.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) mentioned cross-border issues.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

On that point, my constituents are in the opposite position to those of the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson): they live in England, but many use public services in Wales, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). Some of them live in England, and have their general practitioner in England, but are registered in Wales. They are subject to the Welsh national health service, the policies of which are set by the Welsh Assembly Government, but they have no democratic say at all about those policies.

[Paul Murphy]

Of course they do not, but they sometimes get the benefit. There was a time when people from the Minister’s constituency were able to come to Chepstow to claim free prescriptions, although I believe that that has been stopped. I agree with him that cross-border matters are particularly complicated in our part of England and Wales. It is not quite the same on the Scottish border, because very few people live alongside it. However, on the Welsh border, in both the south and the north, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn referred, it is an issue, and the Minister also makes that point. If we start trying to disentangle all of this, we would get into an awful muddle as to who does what, and who votes on what.

Policies developed in England have implications for the rest of the United Kingdom. Look at student fees, for example. When we are elected, we are elected as MPs for our constituencies, but we are also elected to represent the UK as a whole. We represent the UK in the sense that we take decisions that affect the whole of the UK, not just our own constituencies. Also, who is to define what is an English issue? I rather fancy that that would put the Speaker of the House of Commons in a difficult position.

[Mr Mark Field]

The right hon. Gentleman has touched on the idea that perhaps we need to move, in time, towards some sort of federal structure, and I do not disagree with that, but the contributions made by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and the Minister go to the heart of the point, particularly on the health issue. Ultimately, it is a fiction that we have a national health service in the UK. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have four separate national health services, one for each of the four constituent parts of the UK. Therein is one of our key problems. Ultimately, we have to be a little more open with the public at large about how that structure operates. It is to a large extent inconsistent, as the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) points out, but it is not enough simply for us to say that we put the UK’s interests first.

There are issues around transport and policing in London on which I, as a London MP, have very little say, and I feel uneasy about that, to a certain extent. I feel uneasy about speaking on some of those issues, given the devolution to the London government. That is not an entire devolution, in the way that it is for the right hon. Gentleman; he does not represent a single person on health matters, because they have been entirely devolved to the Welsh Assembly.

[Paul Murphy]

But I do represent people on health matters because of decisions made by the British Government on health spending. As I said earlier, if they put spending up, that has a direct consequence for the people of Wales: their spending will go down. My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn referred to cross-border implications; the English health service is important to Welsh Members because of those implications.

Let me say to the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) that I voted on the Bill to set up the London authority. I also voted on issues that affected only Scotland before devolution, and all of us could vote on matters affecting Northern Ireland. There were times when those decisions were highly controversial, such as when the poll tax was introduced in Scotland. That was done on the basis of English MPs agreeing to it, but we had to accept that the principle of British MPs voting on British issues was still important, however disagreeable we thought it might be.

Northern Ireland is a good example, because it had its own devolved system from the early ’20s to the ’60s. The Stormont Parliament dealt with all the issues for which it was responsible—education, health and so on—but Northern Ireland MPs still had a say and a vote on matters that affected England, Scotland and Wales. Indeed, it was when Harold Wilson complained in the ’60s that although steel nationalisation was not a matter that affected Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Members were voting on it, that the Conservative party pointed out that all Members in the House of Commons were equal, in terms of their constitutional rights.

Another problem is that of creating two classes of MPs. I quote again from Kilbrandon:

“in our view, therefore, all Members of Parliament, whether or not they come from regions with their own legislative assemblies, must have the same rights of participation in the business of the House of Commons”.

No European country has two-tier MPs. The nearest country to us in terms of asymmetrical devolution is Spain. I asked the Library to have a look at that situation, and it assured me that all Spanish MPs have exactly the same rights in their Parliament as we do in ours, despite the fact that virtually every aspect of domestic policy is heavily devolved to parts of Spain such as the Basque country and Catalonia.

There would be a problem—the hon. Member for Monmouth has left—if we were to accept two classes of MPs, and if Welsh Members could not vote on English issues, whatever they might be. The UK Parliament is in danger of becoming an English Parliament, and that is very dangerous. What about the House of Lords? This has never been an issue, but it may vote on anything, including matters on which Welsh Members of Parliament could not.

The biggest single issue, however, is that when I vote, as a citizen of the United Kingdom who happens to live in Wales, I vote on the policies of the parties as they affect the United Kingdom, but as a Welsh Member of Parliament, I vote on issues that affect, for example, the English health service. That happens in Scotland. All that cannot be disentangled. What would happen if there were restrictions on Members of Parliament and a Government could not carry a majority on English issues, but could on United Kingdom issues? When a potential Prime Minister goes to the palace, having won a United Kingdom general election, does the Queen ask whether they have a majority in England? That is the problem, because there would be a constitutional mess that we have never previously experienced.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I am listening to the right hon. Gentleman’s argument with great attention, and agree with much of it, but the key issue is that the real change in governance in Wales was voted on by the whole House of Commons, including all English MPs, and they presumably understood the implications of the decision.

[Paul Murphy]

Presumably they did, but when English, Scottish and Northern Ireland Members of Parliament voted for the Welsh settlement, they voted for something that was put to the people in 1997: first, that there would be a devolved Assembly; secondly, that there would be the same number of Members of Parliament; and, thirdly, the issue of whether Welsh Members of Parliament were not able to vote on certain issues in the House of Commons was specifically excluded. People in Wales, Scotland and indeed Northern Ireland voted in referendums that in no way denigrated the power or responsibilities of their Member of Parliament.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

I am listening with interest to the right hon. Gentleman, but he and other Welsh MPs underestimate the resentment in England that has been referred to, which is growing. I shall give one small example on the point that he was making. I forget the year of the legislation on tuition fees—it was in the late 1990s—but he knows as well as I do that English MPs voted against the introduction of tuition fees in England, and that Bill applied only to England. It came in only because of the votes of Scottish MPs—[Interruption.] It is true. I am sorry, but the majority of English MPs voted against tuition fees.

[Paul Murphy]

The argument could be made on other issues, such as the poll tax. People in Scotland, who were soon to have their Parliament, deeply resented that; it was something that they did not want. Another issue that caused resentment in Wales—I see no way out of it without English regional government—is the Olympics, which are being held in London. There is great dissatisfaction in Wales about the fact that a huge amount of money is being spent on something in London that has no impact on Wales.

[Richard Ottaway]

Londoners are paying extra council tax.

[Paul Murphy]

Whatever the rights or wrongs, a lot of money that would have come to Wales did not, because it went to the London Olympics. I am not saying that that is good or bad; I am merely pointing out that there was disagreement in Wales. That will always happen. It could be argued, for example, that the southern part of England during the 1960s and 1970s, and recently, voted for more Conservative MPs than Labour or Liberal Democrat MPs. They could feel aggrieved that their part of England has been done down by a Labour Government for whom they did not vote. That is the nature of the United Kingdom legislature, and we cannot change that.

[Mr Mark Field]

The right hon. Gentleman must accept that it was precisely that resentment in reverse that led to the devolution settlement. In the run-up to the 1997 election, his party recognised that 18 years of Conservative rule had dismayed many people in Scotland and Wales, and that is why we went down the devolution route. He cannot have it both ways. That was an important part of the momentum that led to the devolution settlement that we have today.

[Paul Murphy]

I think that is probably right, and that was reflected in the referendum result in Wales. People preferred decisions affecting their lives to be taken in Cardiff instead of Westminster, but that was certainly not the only reason for devolution. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland wanted it for various reasons, and people voted accordingly.

At the end of the day, the Government changed their mind, and the Conservative party changed its mind over the years, partly because of such arguments. After all, the Conservatives have only one Member of Parliament in Scotland, eight in Wales and none in Northern Ireland. Is the Conservative party still a Unionist party? I sometimes doubt it. I also sometimes doubt whether, if there were a majority of Conservatives in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, it would have the same appetite for change. I am sorry about that, because the Conservative party has a long and proud tradition in its own right of protecting the Union, but that is not so now. I sometimes wonder whether it would prefer Wales and Scotland to go their own ways. That would be a dangerous step, particularly in view of the Prime Minister’s respect agenda for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although I am not convinced that that agenda would be respectful if the powers, responsibilities and duties of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Members of Parliament were removed. I sincerely hope that the Government will rethink the issue, because it could imperil our constitution, weaken the Union, and do a great disservice to the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of people’s ability to have their say in person. Such provision was not in the Bill originally, but we listened carefully to the debate in the other place, and there were a number of very good arguments. Among others, Lady de Souza and Lords Pannick and Wolff were of the view that it was important to allow local people to have a say, so we tabled a Government amendment and an associated new schedule enabling an outlet for local opinion, and that was included in the Bill.

The proposed changes were accepted without a Division in the other place, but I have said—I think, accurately—that there was then an attempt effectively to turn that process of public hearings back into the largely discredited legalistic inquiry process. There was a debate, but the other place, having decided that it did not want to accept the idea, was content with our proposal for public hearings.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I do not agree that the proposals before us are anything like proper inquiries, but let us assume that the Minister is right and they are concessions. Does he not accept that Wales loses 25% of its Members while the rest of the United Kingdom loses 7%? Does he not think, therefore, that there should be more such assurance in Wales than in other parts of the country?

[Mr Harper]

On the right hon. Gentleman’s first point, which is that public hearings are different from the old discredited system of local inquiries, he is spot on. They are designed to be different, because the academic evidence is very clear: the old system of public inquiries did not lead to an improvement in the boundaries.

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[Chris Bryant]

Much as I would love to agree with my hon. Friend, I recall previous comments: when people lost the argument at a public inquiry, they tended to hold forth against them; when they won the argument at a public inquiry, they tended to support them. However, in many cases, the Boundary Commission’s original proposals were overturned through public inquiries because of the voices of local people, such as the people of Acton Burnell, of Much Marcle and so on. Sometimes it happened because of the intervention of political parties. None the less, the end result has been constituency boundaries that, in the main, are accepted by the people who are represented.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case for boundary inquiries. My constituency was preserved 27 years ago by a long public inquiry. However, I am not sure whether the Minister grasped my earlier point. In Wales, there will be a 25% reduction in the number of seats—I was not arguing about the principle, but making the point that the disruption to the political and constitutional landscape in Wales is hugely greater than in other parts of the country. We should therefore have more public hearings in lieu of the public inquiries.

[Chris Bryant]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. In addition, there are some specific concerns. For example, it is possible that, as a result of the boundary changes, we would end up with no single constituency in Wales with a Welsh-speaking majority. That is not of particular concern to my constituents in the Rhondda, but it is of concern to the British Parliament that that voice could be lost.

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[Andrew George]

I will not give way, because we have only 11 minutes left and I want to finish to allow other Members to speak. We had the option of extending to other constituencies the exceptional geographical status that is applied to Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Orkney and Shetland and the other places that have been mentioned. All the amendment would do is give the Boundary Commission reasonable latitude and discretion to accept the arguments for exceptional status that will inevitably arise. Otherwise, the Government’s intransigence will leave a legacy that I believe the House will regret.

[Paul Murphy]

I do not understand why the Government and the Minister are being so rigid and fundamentalist on this issue. The Minister has already accepted the principle that there can be 5% leeway in the size of the electorate and that that flexibility is the result of local ties and circumstances. Many of us wanted a flexibility of 10%, but the Government wanted 5%. After weeks of debate in the House of Lords and in this Chamber, he is for some reason sticking to the rigidity of 5%, despite knowing full well that the 7.5% flexibility would not result in the problems that he has suggested. Of course it would not, because the principles are exactly the same.

The Minister represents a constituency that has distinctive circumstances as a result of its locality—the former coal-mining area of Forest of Dean. If it was turned into Gloucestershire parliamentary district No. 3, does he think that that is how his constituents would want to be represented in the House of Commons? Of course they would not. They would want to ensure that they have someone who understands their locality and all the special reasons that make it so important. I have already named two examples from Wales, as we have a number of Welsh-speaking constituencies that, generally speaking, have Welsh-speaking MPs to represent their linguistic interests in the House. With the 25% reduction in MPs for Wales, that is no longer likely to be the case.

[Tristram Hunt]

Does that not point to a lack of understanding about the nature of the Union? Those balances and inequalities are represented in this Chamber, because that is the price of holding together the Union, and the Government’s utilitarian approach does no favours to the United Kingdom.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, in the sense that the unity of our kingdom is based on the recognition of the differences within it. Those differences can be reflected linguistically, culturally, socially and in other ways. The rigidity with which the Government have embarked on this course puts that Union in danger.

[Mr Harper]

I set out from the Government’s perspective the reason why we settled on plus or minus 5%—a 10% range that is based on more equal seats but allows the use of wards as building blocks. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House the principled reason why he thinks that 7.5% either side of that quota is the right number?

[Paul Murphy]

That extra flexibility allows for the factor that I have just described in Wales and elsewhere to be taken into account—of course it does. I should argue very strongly for 10%, but the Government have a particular principle behind their legislation, which incidentally is based not in any way on logic, but on expediency.

[Mrs Laing]

The right hon. Gentleman is doing very well, as ever, at putting before the House what appears to be an argument based on principle, but in reality are not he and his Labour party colleagues afraid of the inflexibility of a 5% variation, because it would take away their in-built advantage under the current unfair system?

[Paul Murphy]

In the examples that I have just given, of Welsh-speaking constituencies in Wales, the seats are held mainly by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrat party, so there is no advantage for the Labour party in that. I am not arguing a partisan point; I am arguing that 7.5% would provide for that flexibility throughout the United Kingdom and avoid the worst excesses of the Bill.

[Mr MacNeil]

A couple of moments ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Union might become weaker with the passage of the Bill. How much weaker does he think that 88-year-old Union—stretching back to 1922—might be after Royal Assent tomorrow?

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[Paul Murphy]

The Union will be weaker as a result, because the Bill will not take into account the various points that I have just described. If we do not allow the small countries within our larger country to be properly represented within the Chambers of the legislature, we will ensure a bad effect on the relations between different parts of that country.

As a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I really do not believe, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, that the Government have thought for one second about the political impact of the changes before us on the constituency boundaries in Northern Ireland. They do not understand that, when we drew up the Good Friday agreement, much of our argument was about how we could create a sensitive balance between Catholic and Protestant, Unionist and nationalist in Northern Ireland. That balance will be upset by the rigidity on which the Government have embarked, and at this very last moment I urge the Minister and the Government to change their minds.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

My problem with Lords amendment 19 is new paragraph 5A(b) of schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986, which states that

“such necessity arises from special geographical considerations or local ties”.

I want to focus on “local ties”, because that is why I shall vote against the amendment. It is bad law, and, looking at “local ties” and how that might be expanded, we should consider my seat, Elmet and Rothwell.

First, let us focus on Rothwell, which between 1917 and 1955 had its own parliamentary constituency. After that, it was included in others, and at the most recent election it fell outside a safe Labour seat for the first time, making me the first Conservative MP for Rothwell.

Moving on to special interests and local ties of an “exceptionally compelling nature”, however, I note that outside my constituency there is a village called Sherburn in Elmet. Many people in that part of the world, when I tell them that I am the MP for Elmet and Rothwell, say, “Ah, I live in Sherburn in Elmet; you’re my MP,” but of course, I am not, because it is not in my constituency.

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I add my disappointment, Mr Deputy Speaker, as another Welshman, over England’s bid and congratulate those who put it forward?

I congratulate the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), whose speech was measured, informed and worthy of the best traditions of this House of Commons. It is appropriate that we discuss this matter, because it is six or seven months since the general election and since IPSA took over its duties. I am not the only one who thinks it appropriate; IPSA thinks so as well. It has embarked on its own review of how the system has worked over the past six months and how it can be improved. There is no doubt in my mind that no hon. Member thinks that we should go back to the old system or that there should not be an independent body to oversee the system. I agree with the independence of the body and that we should not go back to the discredited system of old.

[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

As a new Member, I think I am right in saying that one benefit of the old system was that when a newly elected Member took on staff who had previously worked for an MP, it counted as continuous employment. One of my caseworkers previously worked for the former Member of Parliament for Leicester West. He was recently denied statutory paternity pay, which I wanted to grant him because he had worked for the Member of Parliament for Leicester West for two years. He had not changed his job, but his employer had changed. Unfortunately, he was told that he was not eligible. Indeed, somebody in IPSA signed above my name as the employer to say that he was not entitled to statutory paternity pay. Continuous service is one element of the old system that would be of benefit.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I hope that her comments and those of all hon. Members who take part in the debate are noted seriously by IPSA. I am sure that it is watching proceedings and will read Hansard.

It is important for IPSA to understand what this debate is about. First, it is about ensuring that IPSA’s operation is cost-effective, because we have a duty as the House of Commons to the taxpayers of this country to ensure that it is cost-effective. Secondly, it is about ensuring that the body is working properly. Undoubtedly, there are areas in which it is not doing so. Thirdly, and most significantly to Members of Parliament, it is about ensuring that our constituents are receiving the best possible service from us.

The area of office costs illustrates my point well. My predecessor entered the House of Commons in 1958. I took over in 1987, until which point no Member of Parliament representing the old Pontypool seat had had a constituency office. That was not unusual. Constituency after constituency did not have an office occupied by the Member of Parliament. I have no doubt that if, almost 24 years on, I decided to close down the office, my constituents would disagree violently. People in every constituency expect their Member of Parliament to have a constituency base with a caseworker, where they can go to talk about their problems.

I agree with the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) that there is a considerable difference between an MP who uses the parliamentary estate as his or her main office and one whose main office is in the constituency. The biggest change that we should make is to disentangle office expenses from personal expenses, because an office expense is not a personal one. That matter is causing considerable difficulties for Members and I believe that IPSA is beginning to understand that. It is beginning to change its policy on that. For instance, as Members will know, office rent can now be paid directly by IPSA and we can use the travel or credit card that IPSA supplies to pay certain bills. I do not see for one second why that should not be taken even further. Personally, I do not want to handle any money at all to do with my constituency office, and I believe that my constituents would agree with that policy.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

I have to disabuse my right hon. Friend of the idea that IPSA can handle treating personal expenses and office expenses differently. When I asked IPSA to reimburse my expenses for living in London to my personal account and to put my claims for my office into an office cost account, which I have run for the past 18 years, it said that it could not handle two bank accounts at the same time. It could pay all the money into my personal account or all of it into my office account, but it could not separate the payments. The system is terrible and not geared up to deal with the reality of an MP’s life.

[Paul Murphy]

The result, of course, is that the service that we provide our constituents becomes less and less effective. There is no reason in this wide world why the old system of ensuring that personal expenses are separate from office expenses should be taken over by IPSA. Its starting that process seems to me to underline the fact that it has accepted the principle that they are different.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the expenses scandal represented a deep crisis of trust writ large in our political establishment? The establishment of IPSA as an institution is rooted in that distrust and reflects it. As a new Member, I find myself approaching it with trepidation as if it were there to catch me out rather than help.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the system would be cheaper, better and more trust-nurturing if instead of monitoring every single claim, IPSA assumed that MPs were honest and just carried out occasional, random checks without warning, as is done across so many areas of public life? If anyone were found to be cheating, IPSA would punish them, rather than assuming that everybody was cheating and spending millions of pounds of public money on that basis.

[Paul Murphy]

The hon. Gentleman is right in the first instance. There is and was a great need for public trust in our expenses system, as that has obviously been lost in the past year or so. However, that is not in any way contradicted by the need to improve how IPSA works. It is so important that there should be transparency, accountability and proper checking on all the claims. Today’s newspaper revelations about what Members have claimed indicate that people are looking at the details online, and they can examine the hon. Gentleman’s details and mine any day of the week. So there is transparency—of course there is—but the problem comes if a system is so bureaucratic, costly and difficult to administer, and occasionally so unfair, that the people suffering are not necessarily the Members of Parliament, but those whom we represent. That is the basis of today’s debate.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the IPSA issues that is not transparent is the cost that it places on Members’ staff time? There is no mechanism through which the staff time taken up filling in IPSA forms, dealing with IPSA, phoning IPSA, waiting on the phone for IPSA to answer and waiting for IPSA to ring us back is quantified at all. That is a grossly underestimated cost, which is totally untransparent.

[Paul Murphy]

That is a valid point, which many Members have raised in the debate. On days when we have to deal with IPSA issues, we tend to find ourselves spending much more time on those than on constituents’ problems or on preparing for debates in the Chamber of the House of Commons.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Recently, there was an application for a job in my office from a candidate who described herself as “IPSA literate”. The system is so arcane, irrational and impenetrable that to be IPSA literate is equivalent to having about two honours degrees. Many of us have taken the line that to impose the job of dealing with IPSA on an employee would be regarded by any tribunal as cruel and inhuman treatment. Does my right hon. Friend not agree that if a commercial organisation—an internet bank, for example—ran a system such as IPSA’s, it would now be out of business because its system was so client-unfriendly?

[Paul Murphy]

Yes, indeed—my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Given that some years ago the then Prime Minister appointed me as Minister for digital inclusion, I thought that I had some knowledge of how to use computers, but I was defeated in having to deal with these issues. Most Members have to deal with this problem with a highly trained member of staff. I am not surprised that my hon. Friend was looking for someone who had those particular qualifications, although of course he is extremely good with computers and has been for many years.

I want to make two other points. First, the artificial distinction between core expenditure and other expenditure has to go, because it does not take into account the geographical variations from constituency to constituency in office rent, in particular, and other factors too. I hope that IPSA will look into that.

My final point relates to our staff. Not many Members have mentioned the men and women who work for us, either here in the House of Commons directly or, particularly, in our constituencies. They have been seriously disadvantaged over the past number of months, not least by the dramatic change in the pension position. It is now taken directly out of our allowances and not paid from the Commons itself. There is a very strong case that the trade unions and staff associations that represent the staff of Members of Parliament should be properly recognised and should have proper means of negotiating directly with IPSA to ensure that their conditions of service are not disadvantaged. This would not happen in the private sector or in the public sector outside this place, and it should not happen in the House of Commons.

The system must be transparent, accountable and independent, but it must also be cost-effective. Most importantly, it must be a system that allows us to represent our constituents effectively.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I almost entirely share the views of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis).

I hope not to listen to anything more about the Chartists. The Chartists of 1839, when there were lots in my constituency, had very different constituencies from those of 2010. Chartists believed in annual Parliaments, something I used to think was not a very good idea.

The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) rejected our view that the Bill is partisan, but why is it so rushed? Why was there no pre-legislative scrutiny and why is there no attempt whatever at consensus? The Deputy Prime Minister boasted that all parties will be involved in some way or other in reforming the other place, but for this Bill, which in many ways is much more controversial, no attempt at consensus has been made. From all my years as a Minister in Wales and in Northern Ireland, I know that any lasting settlement must be based on consensus and compromise. If not, it will not work and it will be a constant sore. That is my first charge against the Bill.

My second charge relates to Wales. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) thought the Bill was good, so he is agreeing that 25% of Welsh Members of Parliament must go after the next election. What he did not say—but we will—is that when people voted for the devolution settlement in 1998, they voted for a package. That package was not simply the establishment of the Assembly, but the continuance of Members of Parliament, at that level, here in the House of Commons to protect the interests of the people of Wales and their nation. If we have a referendum, and there are greater powers, that might change, but at least people would have voted on it. However, in 1998, they voted for the opposite—the retention of Members of Parliament.

The other issue to which the hon. Gentleman referred was the size of our constituencies, but he represents one of the biggest constituencies in the whole United Kingdom. If he had to have 76,000 electors, it would create an enormous—a preposterous—constituency, which would start in Crickhowell and finish in Wrexham; it would be the size of Powys. That is nonsense. The great problem with the proposal is that equal electoral districts do not mean absolutely equal arithmetical electoral districts, because that would be nonsense. In Wales, it would fly against our valley constituencies, the rural seats, county towns or other parts of our country where the link between the constituency Member of Parliament and the community is absolutely vital. That is why I vigorously object to the part of the Bill that would take away those links, whether they are based on geography, history or tradition.

That relates to what is in some ways the worst part of the Bill, which would take away from the British people the right they have had for generations to stand up in inquiries in their communities and object to, or agree with, whatever the Boundary Commission proposes. To take away that right is a real dereliction. Two years before I entered the House in 1985, there were proposals to split my valley constituency into three. There was uproar, not just from the political parties but from the whole community—from the Churches, business people, trade unions, local authorities and ordinary people. They were able to go to a public inquiry, which was headed, for those of us opposed to splitting the constituency, by the late Sam Silkin. It was a great inquiry, because everybody was involved and the proposals were completely overturned.

We are now abolishing that right for local people, although it seems—the Minister might be able to deal with this point when he winds up—that when we are looking at boundaries for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly, there will still be a right to hold public inquiries in all those countries, but not for our mother of Parliaments in Westminster. That is wrong.

I hope that over the next few months we shall be able to change the Bill in Committee. I hope that those upstairs, in the House of Lords, will also be able to change it. They are called the watchdog of the constitution—I hope that they are not the Deputy Prime Minister’s poodle—but ultimately, the people of our country, in constituency after constituency, will object with great vigour to doing away with a system that, in my view, is the greatest parliamentary system in the world. By abolishing those rights, we do ourselves a great disservice.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

No work was done in the Department on the question prior to the general election. I am pleased to tell the House, however, that the project board has produced a question and a preceding statement for the referendum on law-making powers for the National Assembly for Wales, and I am sending it today to the Electoral Commission for the 10 weeks that it needs to carry out its work in proving that question. In the short time I have been in the office, I think I have achieved more than my predecessor did in the time from 17 February, when notice was given to him that a referendum was required.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I congratulate the right hon. Lady on her new job? Despite what the London commentariat say, it is a very important job indeed. She will know that, during any referendum, the question of Members of Parliament from Wales will be an issue. Will she confirm that she agrees with her previous statement that there should be 40 Welsh MPs?

[Mrs Gillan]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his warm welcome. When I dealt with him from the other side of the Dispatch Box, I always found that his courtesy was unfailing. He refers to the potential boundary changes and the reduction of the number of MPs—I am sure that no one outside the House will be arguing for more highly paid politicians. However, I take very seriously the representation of Wales in the House, and nothing will be done in reducing the number of MPs that will disproportionately affect the share of voice that Wales has in the House and at Government levels.

Saville Inquiry

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend on being elected as the Chair of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs? He has had a long interest in this part of our United Kingdom, and I know that he will do an excellent job. The point he makes is entirely right: how we respond to this as party leaders—this applies to all parties—will make a huge difference to the way that this is seen and understood. It is a highly charged and highly emotional issue, even 38 years on, and in our response we have to be responsible for what we say and how we say it. I think that it is important that everyone recognises that.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

As the political development Minister in 1998, when this inquiry was started, I think that I was right in agreeing with it. Having listened to the Prime Minister’s statement, all of which I agree with, I believe that, despite the costs and the length of time, it was right for this report to come forward today, after all these years. Does the Prime Minister agree that the chief priority, still, for Northern Ireland is its peace process and that all parties in Northern Ireland must agree with that process and with the way we go forward? Will he undertake to take personal charge of ensuring that that peace process continues, despite what he rightly calls the “shocking” revelations of this report?

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman served with great distinction as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and I know his commitment to the Province and to the peace process. He is right to say that the peace process still needs to be given our priority. I was keen to get to every part of the United Kingdom within the first 10 days or so of becoming Prime Minister, and I did go to Northern Ireland, where I met party leaders, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree, as a former Secretary of State, that it is important for us to give responsibility to our Secretaries of State and to ensure that, in the first instance, they are leading the process and making sure that the peace process moves forward—it is moving forward. It has been challenged many times over the past decade, and I am sure that today will be another fresh challenge. But I hope that the way that people respond to this report will make sure that, as I said in my statement, we can draw an end to this very painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s history.