Mental Health Treatment: Waiting Times

Lord Markham Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend’s suggestions. Of course it is a team that provides the mental health support that is necessary, but I am particularly pleased that we are working to deliver a mental health professional in every school. That is a starting point, not necessarily the end point, so my noble friend makes some very helpful suggestions.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I appreciate from my own time as Health Minister how difficult it is to meet the expanding demand, so I wonder if we are still looking at other methods to expand capacity, particularly digitally, both in terms of early diagnosis but also some of the digital mental health treatments which are quite impressive?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am glad for the understanding of the noble Lord. NHS England is encouraging the local use of digital tools, for example digitally enabled therapies, and it is an extremely helpful way also of managing waiting lists so people are not just left waiting but they are held and supported, often through digital means.

Government Policy on Health

Lord Markham Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I cannot answer that, I am afraid. I would be very happy to look at it for the noble Baroness.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Although I understand completely the role of advisers—obviously Alan Milburn is a very reputable adviser—where is the line? My concern is that, when an adviser has a pass, has been in meetings without Ministers present and has perhaps directed civil servants in those meetings, a line has perhaps been crossed. I would welcome assurances from the Minister that this has not occurred and that there have not been any meetings where Alan Milburn has been there without Ministers—in effect, directing policy with no formal role.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The right honourable Alan Milburn has not been directing policy; he also has no pass. I hope that is helpful to the noble Lord.

Human Medicines (Amendments relating to Registered Dental Hygienists, Registered Dental Therapists and Registered Pharmacy Technicians) Regulations 2024

Lord Markham Excerpts

Friday 24th May 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Markham]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 29 April be approved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are proposing changes that would improve patient access to medicines from dental practices and pharmacies. The draft statutory instrument before the House today covers two distinct professions: dental therapists or hygienists and pharmacy technicians. It will enable them both to use the full range of their skills to supply patients with the medicines they need, in a timely manner.

Our proposed changes will put exemptions in place for dental therapists and dental hygienists to supply or administer a range of medicines to patients which are part of their day-to-day job without having to refer to a dentist, so that they can deliver care without the need to organise additional appointments, or interrupt colleagues who are busy with other patients.

These are sensible, common-sense measures, freeing up precious time for clinicians and patients alike. Healthcare professionals have a responsibility to carry out care only where it is safe and they are competent to do so. Many of these professionals will already have extensive experience of using these medicines, but of course we will not compromise on safety.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, from these Benches, we support the overall terms of these draft regulations, particularly the measures on pharmacy technicians and dental hygienists, who have great value in providing timely and quality care to patients where it is safe and suitable for them to do so.

I know that the dental profession is very supportive of the intention to enable dental hygienists and dental therapists to supply and administer the majority of the medicines listed in the regulations. The Minister described the regulations as “common-sense”, and I certainly share that assessment.

However, I just draw the Minister’s attention to the inclusion of two medicines on the list: minocycline and nystatin. These were not supported by the BDA or the College of General Dentistry—I am sure the Minister is aware of this—for a number of reasons, including antimicrobial resistance. In the case of minocycline efficacy, it is not recommended in any national clinical guidelines and its use in dentistry is no longer accepted practice. Perhaps the Minister can therefore say whether the concerns of the key dental stakeholders were taken into account when the decision was made to retain these two drugs on the list. Can he also assure the House that there has been full and proper consultation with both the British Dental Association and College of General Dentistry on ensuring that the regulations are compliant with both national practice and existing clinical guidelines?

Efforts to increase the skill mix in our NHS dentistry workforce and across pharmacy more generally are welcome, but I am sure that the Minister will forgive me for thinking that we perhaps need to go rather further than technical tweaks if we are to reverse the crisis in which NHS dentistry finds itself. However, as I said at the outset, we support these regulations, and I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us about the medicines that are included in the list.

As this is the last day that the House is sitting in this Parliament, I, like my colleagues before me and, I am sure, after me, would like to take the opportunity to say to the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Markham, what a pleasure it has been to work with him while he has been in his role. He has always carried out that role with the greatest courtesy, but also with care and determination to improve things, no matter what obstacles he perhaps found in his way. I thank him for his dedication to his role. As he is standing in for the noble Lord, Lord Evans—who was due to be standing in for the noble Lord, Lord Markham—I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans, similarly, for the manner in which he has conducted himself in this House. He too has always been most helpful and a real pleasure to work with and has always tried his best to make progress, as I know we all wish to do.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words. Likewise, if the right words are “thoroughly enjoyed” then I have thoroughly enjoyed working with both the noble Baronesses on the Front Bench on that side, the noble Lord, Lord Allan—he is not here—and many other colleagues, including the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. There are a number of common-sense things that we have managed to work through together.

I too take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords. It was a baptism of fire when I started two years ago, but I have come to really respect the function of the House and how well it holds our feet to the fire. We are all, in British society and in the Government, much the better for it.

On the questions raised, particularly regarding minocycline 2%, there were concerns raised, as the noble Baroness said, including by the British Society of Periodontology. However, when it was looked at, it was felt overall that it was best to keep it on the list because the concerns are quite low. On balance, it was worth keeping it on the list, but keeping it under watch—for want of a better word. Concerns were also raised around nystatin oral suspension but, again, it was felt that there were certain health benefits for certain groups of patients. But there will be training associated with these medicines, to ensure patient safety.

I will happily write in more detail on these—as is my wont; that is my “get out of jail free” card, in many cases—to make sure those questions are properly answered. I welcome the comments from the other Front Bench that these are sensible arrangements. With that, I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Inflammatory Bowel Disease

Lord Markham Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to improve awareness of, and services for people with, inflammatory bowel disease.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

NHS England’s national bladder and bowel health project is delivering better care for people with inflammatory bowel disease, with a focus on developing clinical pathways. Additionally, NHS England aims to reduce variation in care for people with inflammatory bowel disease through its Getting It Right First Time gastroenterology programme. To raise awareness of IBD among GPs and other primary care staff, the Royal College of General Practitioners has produced an inflammatory bowel disease toolkit.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned variation in care. He will be aware that over half a million people in the UK suffer from IBD and that the actual quality of care is very varied throughout the country. For instance, the overall waiting time for new patient appointments at gastroenterology clinics varies between one week and 27 weeks, with a big impact on the outcome of the care the patient receives. My understanding is that there are IBD national standards but that they are not adhered to. Can the Minister tell me why that is, and when will the Government insist that the NHS gets the variation of care down to at least an acceptable limit where good-quality care is guaranteed to all patients?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct. I spent time with the clinical lead in this area this morning; there is a Getting It Right First Time pathway and it is clear that the initial cohort of 25 hospitals have shown real progress in this area. That is being rolled out across the pathway—we have now had cohorts 2 and 3 doing it—so we should see those improvements happen across the board. However, it is my job as a Minister to make sure that that happens.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, the Getting It Right First Time review that the Minister mentioned recommended increased access to endoscopy services over six and seven days and with extended hours. These are especially important for people trying to manage a bowel condition and work. Is the Minister satisfied with progress since that report in 2021 in terms of the availability of these services at weekends and in the evenings?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I think there are two things. One is the CDC programme; the 160 centres and 7 million tests that we have rolled out are now very much helping in that space. However, it is also about making sure that the right people get the tests. On the question of awareness as well, we now have these faecal tests—a bit like bowel cancer screening—which can tell with 90% sensitivity whether you have inflammatory bowel disease or irritable bowel syndrome. With one, you absolutely need to see a specialist for endoscopy, while with the other, you do not. Telling the difference is key.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concern that a number of people, increasingly women, are being wrongly diagnosed with IBS when in fact they have an underlying cancer condition? How does he imagine that we can rectify this situation?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

For the benefit of the House, I would say they are often confused. Irritable bowel syndrome is suffered by about 10% of the population while inflammatory bowel disease—we are talking about Crohn’s disease and colitis—is suffered by less than 1% of the population. The key thing is trying to understand the difference between the two; as I say, we have this poo test, for want of a better word, which can do that. With people who test positive, you absolutely need to get them into that screening programme and get it right the first time, so you can pick up those problems and things such as cancer.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, more years ago than I care to remember, I was a gastroenterologist and saw many patients with inflammatory bowel disease. We were desperately seeking a cause or causes and we did research on infectious agents, unsuccessfully. Can the Minister update us on where research into the causes of these diseases is going? It has been going on far too long.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct. This is an area where we still need more knowledge. We have spent about £34 million in research in this space over the last few years, but there is still a lot that we are learning. I can say freely that if there are good research projects there, the resources are available to make sure that they are funded, because we need to learn more in this space.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

My Lords, many health authorities are sending out these tests to people. What percentage of these tests—“poo collections”, to use my noble friend’s words—are not being returned? It could be relatively high, particularly if we are not explaining the difference between the two types of illness.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

As described by the clinical lead in this, these really are game changers, so getting them back is key. I do not have the figures to hand as to the amount that they get a response from but, in the case of the bowel cancer screening, many of us will be aware that there has been a whole programme which has been very successful in getting those poo tests measured and responded to. We need to learn the same lessons in this area.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my registered interests. To achieve the best outcomes for complex conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease, there is a requirement to ensure that patients are managed by properly skilled multidisciplinary teams. Is the Minister content that, with all the workforce pressures that exist, we are investing sufficiently to develop those teams to ensure the best clinical outcomes?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The long-term workforce plan sets this out. We are getting a good response in terms of filling up the places. We have about 98% or 99% of the training places filled. The challenge is that this service, more than anything else, suffers from the highest burnout. That is the area where we are struggling to fill the places. Therefore, we are trying to ensure that this scarce resource is used by people and that this early screening test is used so that people can see who they really need to see.

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s commitment to appoint a senior official to take responsibility for home care medicine services as a way forward to address awareness of coeliac disease and Crohn’ disease. Will there be a periodic update of data on how home care medicine services are functioning and a date for commencement of that data?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We had a very good debate on this a couple of weeks ago. All noble Lords accepted that it was a bit of a Cinderella service at the moment, but vitally important to a lot of people’s everyday well-being, so I am happy to do that.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister monitoring what is happening in Europe and the US to see whether we can learn any new lessons from the research programmes that are being carried out there?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The Getting It Right pathway was very much informed from that best practice around the world and, in the last year, NICE has approved four new drug treatments. We are trying to look at the best medicines around the world. One of them, risankizumab, has resulted in a 44% reduction in the disease—so, yes, we are trying to learn from the best in the world.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about awareness. We know that certain communities are vaccine hesitant or less aware of some of the conditions and less likely to come forward. What lessons have been learned from some of the other programmes? Are there communities that are underrepresented for this? What efforts have been made to learn from other programmes to make sure that those communities come forward?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

First off, it is trying to learn the lessons: the best parallel that I have so far is around the bowel cancer screening and that faecal screening programme. The real thing here is the difference between the 10% of the population who suffer from irritable bowel syndrome, a lot of which is diet-based in terms of the cure, and the 1% which really is serious in terms of inflammatory bowel disease. That is where we need the education and awareness.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has twice mentioned the bowel cancer screening programme, which I think is universally accepted to be very successful, and is also very reassuring to those people who are part of it, whatever the outcome of the tests. He will also know that that screening programme and others drop people once they reach a certain age, which coincidentally is the age at which they become more likely to develop the cancers that the screening programme is intended to detect. Do the Government have any plans to increase the age up to which people can be routinely included in bowel cancer screening and other screening programmes?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. In this and other areas, we are guided by the science; we have been guided by the science on the advice to date. I will go back and ask for the latest thinking on that, and get back in detail in writing to the noble Baroness, but, generally, being guided by the science will be the approach.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and indeed the question from the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, I understood that there was a link with a weakened immune system. I wonder if that is still an active field of research. Is there any update the noble Lord can provide? Many people, for other reasons, are diagnosed with weakened immune systems.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

These are all areas we are trying to find out about, such as Crohn’s and colitis. The trouble is that this whole area has a big field within it. The honest answer is that it is not absolutely understood, hence the need for research on what is causing this in the first place. As I say, we have spent quite a bit on research, but more needs to be spent on understanding the real issues. If the research projects are there, we will happily undertake them.

Integration of Primary and Community Care (Committee Report)

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

I too thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and all the committee, for their work on this report. I hope that noble Lords will see from my speech that this report is appreciated. Directly on the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay: the recommendations are welcome, and I hope that my speech will set out how we are acting on them.

Before I get into the detail, like other noble Lords, I want to acknowledge my noble friend Lord Jamieson’s maiden speech. He brings a wealth of experience to this, both professionally and from local government. I was particularly struck by his passion for housing. I must admit it is one that I share: it is core to so many people’s lives, in terms of well-being, their sense of happiness, security and stability, and, of course, their health. I look forward to discussing further how we can make that the core of so many things. As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, rightly said, the noble Lord’s mother would be proud of him today.

I will start by recognising the points made by all noble Lords about the importance of primary care and community care integration. The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said that nearly all of the four former Ministers strongly made the point that we see more and more resources going to hospitals, and we also know that there are more and more patients who do not need to go there. Around 50% of the people who go to A&E do not really need to be there. We see a lot of children under 12 going in with tooth decay, when better primary care and dental services would avoid that. Unless we change things, we will see the situation set out by the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson: staff levels in healthcare will go from one in seven of the population to one in four, and then one in three.

I think we all agree that we have to get upstream of the problem. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, rightly set out the need for prevention. I have seen some excellent examples of that, and Redhill is just one. The noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, and others described the excellent examples we have seen in the work of Professor Sam Everington in east London: making primary care central to care in the community, and assessing how many services can be taken out of acute settings.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, said, centring the service around the needs of the individual, in contrast to the existing set-up, needs a shift in resources towards primary care. Our belief is that that can occur only if the ICBs, ICPs and ICSs are equipped with the information and have that helicopter view and the ability to shift resources from one to the other.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, asked a very direct and correct question about why we are increasing hospital care resources. I have some lived-in experience of that. It is a gutsy move to say that we will shift resources away from the hospitals. To make the whole equation work, you are often talking about reducing hospital services and the number of hospital beds, and putting them in the community instead, which we all agree is absolutely the right way to go. But we all know the reaction you get from local groups as soon as you try to do something like that. I completely agree that “neighbourhood health service” should be the name. It takes cross-party work to do that, regardless of who is in government after the next election. Speaking candidly, we need to provide each other with air cover during some of those difficult conversations, including with the ICBs and ICSs. For my part, I pledge to play that role, whether I am sitting on this Bench, the Bench opposite or any other bench after the election.

I am sorry that the government response was seen as disappointing. I hope we can address a lot of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. We agree with the whole emphasis of the report and its recommendations, the analysis of the problems and the need to focus resources on primary care and prevention. We also agree with the substance of most of the recommendations.

Our main difference is whether we should be mandating the recommendations on the ICBs, ICPs and ICSs, versus enabling them to adopt them. For want of a better word, this is a bet that we are putting on the ICBs, that they are the right bodies to do this, giving them the time and the space to try to do that. I admit that I am naturally resistant—and that is likely to show in the emphasis in many of my replies—on whether we should be mandating them, when we want to give them the flexibilities to do those things at a local level. We should be enabling them to do it, and we should be encouraging them to do it, but where we stop earlier is on whether we should be insisting and mandating them.

I hope that that gives a general sense, but I shall turn to each part, starting with structure and organisation. I agree with the committee’s recommendations to allow the ICSs the appropriate time to mature before introducing any wholesale system reforms. I hear the point of the noble Lord, Lord Allan, that three years is a long time. We need to make sure that we get some of those early indicators as we go along, but at the same time we need to give them time to bed down and accept that some will do a better job than others, which of course is the inevitable consequence of giving people the ability to manage their own local systems.

On the integration, we are giving these bodies the ability to bring together the NHS, the councils, the voluntary sector and the others, with the focus on prevention and better outcomes. The noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, emphasised the importance of prevention, and the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, addressed the raising of life expectancy and quality of life. I am pleased to inform the House that we see the NHS health check as a flagship cardiovascular disease prevention programme. As mentioned, using the app is a key way in which people can engage with that, book their services and have a lot of those type of tests at home.

With respect to the committee’s recommendation relating to a single accountable officer and coterminosity, ICSs have the flexibility to develop accountability arrangements that best meets the need of their local population. We have various successful models of accountability implemented, including as partnerships and committees. Again, where an ICS identifies that its boundary is not meeting local needs, it can request a review. Local authorities are a critical partner here. The NHS has recently published a process for boundary change requests that requires support from all local authority partners in this. At the same time, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, mentioned in her speech some of the challenges around being coterminous with borders, and how that can cut across some of the things that we want to see happening in terms of choice. It is not always a straightforward question. Again, that shows that this should not be something we are mandating, but we are enabling the ICBs to address that, if it is the right thing for their area.

On the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, on elected officials chairing ICBs, NHS England has set criteria prohibiting all ICB chairs and non-exec members from holding a public office role, or a role in the healthcare organisation within the ICB area. However, the elected local authority, the local government officials, are able to chair the ICP—the partnership—which of course is a very important committee that sets the health and care strategy.

The committee recommends that the CQC pilot ICS assessments are widely disseminated—a point the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, also raised. I can confirm that the CQC will publish the pilot findings as narrative reports that will be available to the public. The CQC assessments will consider how well health and social care are working together to deliver high-quality care, and the assessment will also score each ICS against the three themes of leadership, integration, quality and safety—I think that is four themes, actually; that is what happens when you try to adjust the brief.

On primary care contracts and funding, as the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, also mentioned, the primary care contracts are kept under review and we will consult the profession on any proposed changes. As I think noble Lords know, we launched a public consultation in December 2023 on inclusive schemes and expect to publish a government response later this year.

On the co-location point which the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, raised, the Government agree with the benefits of co-location and multiple disciplinary teams for promoting integration, and we expect the different models of integration to be implemented across the country based on local needs and the availability of estates.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, mentioned investing in primary care. We want GPs to deliver the best care to patients, which is why we are backing the NHS with this significant capital investment in this space. That includes the £4.2 billion this year in operational capital for integrated care boards to allocate locally, including to primary care.

The committee outlined a suggestion to better utilise the better care fund and pooling of budgets. The Government encourage local areas to maximise the full potential of the better care fund and to pool budgets. We have seen local areas committing additional money to their better care fund to support joint commissioning and integration. Place-level committees are crucial to delivering integration, and the Government published a toolkit in October 2023 to support the development of shared outcomes as a powerful means of promoting joint working.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, raised, proactive care involves providing personalised and co-ordinated care and support for people living with complex health and care needs. A good example of where this works well is the Jean Bishop Integrated Care Centre in Hull, a geriatric-led multidisciplinary service. Measured outcomes show that, between April 2019 and September 2022, the service contributed to a 13.6% reduction in emergency hospital attendance for patients aged over 80. Over the same time, there was a 17.6% reduction in emergency department attendances for patients in care homes. However—this also relates to the point on training later on—where we have fantastic examples such as that one, we need to make sure that that is disseminated and understood as part of the integration sharing.

On systems and data sharing, I have to admit that, like the noble Lord, Lord Allan—this will not be a surprise to many people—I am a fellow data anorak. I understand the importance of the NHS number and common place references in that. I learned about fuzzy data matching the hard way in one of my earlier jobs. You need only to look at what happened to the local Laura Ashley store in Kyiv, funnily enough, to see the consequences of fuzzy data matching and having a misallocation of dress sizes, shapes and colours because I did not fully understand the skew references in terms of fully data matching. Therefore I understood the hard way and the consequences of that.

I think we all understand the point the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made about the frustration that many people increasingly express.

The DHSC was called by the report to

“publish high level guidance to standardise the collection of data and portability requirements in commercial data-sharing software, especially for social determinants of health”,

and mandate how clinicians “code” information. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, raised a key point on responsible handling of data. We already set standards of coding for data and set national standards for data systems to ensure interoperability. The Government have published a plan for digital health and social care that includes milestones for setting standards on interoperability and systems architecture, enabling all relevant health and care data to be accessed by those with a legitimate right to access it at the point of need, no matter where it is held. We are also moving to a system of data access by default for secondary users of NHS data, which will be supported by the implementation of the secure data environments—SDEs—which mean that data from NHS and related services can be used for research without identifying information needing to be shared.

The report also calls for one or more interoperable data systems to be centrally procured, as was rightly flagged as a key issue by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. We do not believe that the solution lies in the purchase of a single system for the NHS—we have all seen the past problems that has led to—but we believe it involves the need for a common set of standards and cloud-based architecture to ensure that digital records can be shared electronically, that services are interoperable, and that you can connect information based on the NHS number of the individual rather than one organisation. That will improve the provision of safe and personalised care as patients move between different parts of the health service and the social care system. The approach taken seeks to strike an effective balance between central and local initiatives.

On the question from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, about sharing one prescription record, I say that this is where we see that Pharmacy First has been a vital enabler. Making sure that we have the systems right so that the pharmacy can write into the GP records to show what it is prescribing the patient gives a blueprint that we can repeat across all the systems—it gives the writing capability to do that, so to speak. All 42 ICBs have had a connecting care record solution since March 2022, which is fundamental to how services can share their information.

I am coming up to time. I will quickly say that I agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, on workforce and training, and that integration of training should be part of all that. I conclude by saying that I will follow up in writing, as ever, to make sure I pick up any questions that have not been answered. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, once more on his maiden speech.

Immunisation: Children

Lord Markham Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to address the decline in uptake of childhood immunisations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

NHS England’s 2023 vaccination strategy set a range of ambitions, including to improve uptake of children’s vaccines across the board. On mumps, measles and rubella in particular, between January and March the NHS and partners administered around four times as many MMR vaccinations to those aged five to 25 as last year and focused on engaging groups with historically lower vaccination rates. We intend to build on these experiences to further improve uptake.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for his reply and pay tribute to the NHS for its sterling work in this area. I have a couple of points. First, I wonder what consideration His Majesty’s Government have given to working with leaders of harder-to-reach groups, some of the smaller groups and some of the faith groups, where messaging can be more powerful when it is done by a local leader. Secondly, there is a worrying increase in the level of whooping cough. Indeed, I believe there has been a childhood death recently. Can the Minister update us on what is being done about this worrying development?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate. First, I completely agree that using faith leaders is often a very good way to reach hard-to-reach communities, particularly as it is often ethnic-minority communities that have lower rates of vaccine uptake. Whooping cough has been a concern; we had about 850 cases in January 2024 compared with about 550 for the whole of 2023. We are deploying a number of strategies that have been proven to work in areas such as MMR: using outreach groups, having leaflets in 15 languages and having recall programmes. In the case of whooping cough, if we can get pregnant mothers vaccinated, that is 97% effective.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, I know the Minister agrees that it would help if parents had online access to their children’s vaccination records and, with his customary efficiency, he kindly wrote to me following a previous exchange on the digital red book to say that parental access to baby records is being piloted in 70 general practices. Can I ask the Minister to give us a ballpark date for when it might be rolled out to the other 6,000-odd GP practices in the United Kingdom? Will it be shortly, soon or in due course?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Or “none of the above”. The noble Lord is quite correct. Of course, data is vital in this whole area, and getting that sharing of data and understanding with people is vital. I will come back on the precise date, but I hope it will be soon.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, there have been more than 1,000 cases of measles in the last six months. What action are the Government taking to make sure that mothers are given options, which maximise convenience, of places to go and times when they could take their children for vaccination, rather than tying them to appointments that may clash with the working day when they cannot get childcare for other children?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

That is an important point. We must try to make sure that vaccination clinics are widespread. We have used pop-up clinics successfully in many locations, particularly around London, and that has helped get 25,000 more jabs into unvaccinated people’s arms in the last few months.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the action that the Government are taking to ensure that MMR vaccinations are going up in underrepresented groups. Can my noble friend the Minister say what action the Government are taking for people seeking asylum? What kind of service are they being offered, and what access do they have to vaccination?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. Actually, it is not just asylum seekers; it is often migrant groups full stop. Their communities or the countries they have come from often do not have the same level of vaccination programmes. It is part of the check we try to give people as they come into the country, and something we ask GPs to look out for, so that we can get them in a catch-up programme. A lot of the work we are doing on outreach is also particularly focused on those communities.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we need to make the case for public health, and that our public health policy is determined by parents getting their children vaccinated? Do we not need to make the case that they put their own and other people’s children in danger unless they comply with vaccination?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes, absolutely. Unfortunately, we are all aware of the Wakefield effect on the MMR vaccine. That knock of confidence was completely unjustified and irresponsible, but we know the impact it had. Clearly, a lot of the anti-vax sentiment around Covid has not helped either. We need to overcome all these messages.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, on the Wakefield effect, as the Minister called it, he will remember that the impact it had on a lot of people was very profound. In particular, some of that was associated with incidence of autism, which again was completely unjustified. Can he tell the House whether any work has been done, in the interests of public information, on what happened to the children who were not vaccinated at that time, and what the outcomes were for them? As a deterrent, it might be useful for people to know what the worst that can happen is if you do not get your children vaccinated.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Baroness is quite right. I had two young sons at around that time, and it was a concern. Of course, we did go ahead, but it was a consideration. It is an excellent question. I have not seen the study of those various cohort groups but I will go back, because it is something we need to bring out.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, it is concerning that measles cases continue to rise, with a particular spike in London, where certain areas have low vaccination rates. With the advent of microarray patch technology, can the Minister confirm that this is being looked at? Does he agree that the chance to dispense with using needles and special storage, and the opportunity to use less of professionals’ time, could present an opportunity to drive up vaccination rates?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

It has to make sense to take more measures that are easy for people, including maybe less skilled people, to operate. Funnily enough, I was talking just today to the head of Moderna about how it is packing syringes, or has planned to for vaccinations going forward, rather than vials, to take that step out of the process. The easier we can make it, the better.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate rightly spoke about the role of faith communities in reaching those hard-to-reach communities. I know that my noble friend the Minister has answered these questions previously, but I wonder what lessons the department has learned from previous vaccination campaigns—Covid, MMR, et cetera—to make sure that the initiatives it is using to reach those hard-to-reach communities are more effective.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

It really is about having the whole toolkit. Clearly, it is about making sure that we are using communications in 15 different languages. It is about the outreach groups and, particularly, the catch-up programmes. We have been doing one for 17 to 25 year-olds for polio and MMR. It is about all those strategies and the pop-up clinics, so that it is very easy to catch people in places that are convenient for them.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the anti-vax sentiment is a powerful deterrent with some of the misinformation on social media? Is there anything more that can be done to try to counter that misinformation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We are trying to get the facts out there. I appreciate the efforts of all noble Lords in doing that. I welcome any ideas on what more action we could be taking. The UK measures at the highest level internationally in terms of parents who believe that vaccines should be used. The level is 97%. That is high, but the trouble is that 3% in concentrated areas can still be quite dangerous.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s question about asylum seekers and immigrants and the Minister’s answer, how are GPs going to check whether such children have been immunised? They will not be carrying any paper proof, and they will certainly not have an app on their phones.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

It is often a case of asking them and seeing what they recall. There are a lot of vaccinations, such as the six-in-one ones. Often, they might not have had any vaccinations. My noble friend is correct that it is not easy to find out that information, but in many cases, where we can, it is good to apply the precautionary principle and offer vaccinations anyway.

International Health Regulations: Amendments

Lord Markham Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathcarron]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the warning by independent WHO experts at the Brownstone Institute that amendments to the International Health Regulations to be made at its forthcoming meeting in May 2024 may contravene Article 55 of those Regulations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

The Government are satisfied that negotiations on amendments to the International Health Regulations comply with Article 55 of those regulations. Member states proposed amendments, which were communicated to all member states in December 2022 and then posted online. Since then, member states have been negotiating the proposals. As per Article 55, the timeline is well in advance of the World Health Assembly this May, where they are due to be considered for agreement.

[Lord Strathcarron (Con)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for the reply. Irrespective of the WHO’s current interpretation of its own rules, the fact remains that Article 55(2) clearly says it is required to give member states four months’ written notice before the amendments are agreed at the end of this month, and it has clearly failed to do so. Bearing this in mind, and that the Government have been less than transparent about the UK’s aims in these negotiations, and bearing in mind the WHO’s woeful performance in the Covid pandemic, does the Minister agree that, regardless of the legal position, it would be wise to delay the votes until the next WHA so that we can have proper parliamentary scrutiny of what the Government are signing us up to?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The key thing that we are looking at here, which I would hope that all of us could agree on, is that we will not agree to anything in this process which impacts our sovereignty as a country and our ability to react to a pandemic in a way that is appropriate for this country and this Government. I hope that we can all rely on that, and that is very much our approach to these negotiations.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, objective 2 of the UK’s Global Health Framework says that the Government will:

“Reform global health architecture, including through a strengthened World Health Organization, driving more coherent governance and collaboration across the international system”.


Aside from producing a winning sentence for policy buzzword bingo, can the Minister point to any specific global health architecture wins that the Government have had in the year since that policy was published?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am not sure in what year that policy was published. However, I can talk about how, when we were president of the G7 in 2021, we led the calls to donate vaccines on a worldwide basis, which led to 1.2 billion doses being donated to countries all around the world, led by Britain’s initiative with AstraZeneca. That was great global co-operation and we can feel very proud of it.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government said that they would learn the lessons from the Covid problems. How have they tackled the issue of production of equipment that was needed for Covid but which we did not have? The Government promised to make sure that we will have it next time. Can he give us an update on that?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Of course, we covered much of this when we had a Question on 15 April around this. This is about making sure that we have the diagnostic capability—which we have—and the ability to scale up. We have made a £125 million-fund available for precisely the issue that the noble Lord mentions, so we have the mothballed capacity ready to operate at quick notice.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, on 14 January 2020 the World Health Organization declared that there was no evidence of person-to-person transmission of the Covid virus. It was parroting the line of the Chinese Government, which at that time were terrified of any investigation of the lab leak theory. Does my noble friend the Minister worry that giving more powers of co-ordination and control to this body will mean less diversity, more homogeneity and the suppression of any attempt to be a Sweden or a Florida, or anyone else who might buck the consensus and thereby, God forbid, suggest that these extreme and draconian lockdowns may not have been the best policy response?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We are talking about two very different things here. One is ensuring that, as a country, we are armed with the information as quickly as possible so that we can act; getting the genomic sequencing of the original strain was vital for us to be able to prepare a vaccine so quickly, so that information sharing is vital. In terms of the impact on our ability to act as a sovereign Government, that is something very different; it is key and understood, and the Covid inquiry now is all about learning lessons. As my noble friend knows, I have personal views about that second lockdown: we need to be looking at the wider impact of that second lockdown in areas such as mental health and other areas in which there was an impact on children, but that is a matter that will always be for the UK Government to decide on.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, the problems that arose during the Covid pandemic in respect of the WHO were because the WHO was let down by one of its members and not properly informed quickly enough of the symptoms that were occurring in that country. There is no point in blaming it when the blame rests with the collective membership of the WHO, which now needs to be repaired. Does the Minister not agree that postponing that repair work will not serve our or anyone else’s purpose?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I do agree: I do not think that it would help to postpone it. I had this exact conversation with the American Health Secretary, who is very aware that we are getting nearer and nearer to an American election and, for all the countries to be able to co-operate fully, the timing is right to reach a solution now. However, we will not reach an agreement at any cost or anything which might impact our sovereignty.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, the Brownstone Institute, to which the noble Lord’s Question refers, was set up to work against Covid restrictions and lists articles which argue that Covid-19 vaccines do not work, that children should not be vaccinated and that vaccine mandates compare with the crimes of the Soviet gulag. On this basis, perhaps the Minister would like to comment on what note he should be taking of the Brownstone Institute, if any. What assessment has been made of the impact of dangerous propaganda like this on the low take-up rates of vaccinations that we see among minority ethnic groups and where there are regional and social disparities?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. All Members of the House, when we had a good Question on the take-up of Covid vaccines, agreed that information supporting the take-up is a vital health message to get across. To any detractors, I say very firmly that it is not the view of the Government, and I know that it is not the view of nearly all noble Lords.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, returning to the treaty, am I right in thinking that it contains provision that envisages a role for the WHO in vaccine certification? If that is the case, how would that have played out when we wished to roll out our own vaccine very speedily? Would we have had to wait for WHO certification?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Again, my noble friend will agree with me that our ability to assess the vaccine more quickly than any other country and roll it out very quickly was a key asset for the UK. Clearly, we will not do anything that will put that at risk.

NHS England: Ovarian Cancer

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of NHS England London stating that “anyone with ovaries can get ovarian cancer” in a social media post rather than referring to “women”, whereas at other times NHS England refers to “men” in relation to prostate cancer; and whether this wording has been market tested with women, including those for whom English is a second language, to ensure that it is fully understood.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

We are writing to NHS England about NHS London’s social media post, to reiterate the expectation that biological sex should be front and centre of all health-related information. Removing language around biological sex has the potential for unintended health consequences. The Government are committed to upholding the rights of women and girls, which is why we are consulting on updates to the NHS constitution, including the use of clear language based on biological sex.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the Minister’s response, which is probably welcomed across the House. Given the Government’s welcome assurance that “single-sex wards” means “biologically single-sex wards”, will he also discuss with the GMC the video on its website that advises doctors to ask trans patients which wards they would prefer to go in? Perhaps he could also talk to the GMC about its practice of allowing doctors to change their gender on the register without any advice that they should inform patients of their biological sex. Although I approve of the Government saying so, it is very hard for patients to ask for a doctor of a particular sex for intimate care if they do not know the sex of their doctor.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

First, I thank the noble Baroness for all her work in this space. I will continue to work closely with her, including by writing to and meeting the GMC as necessary on all these matters. On her second point, while I respect that many clinicians may wish to keep their information private, we have to understand that, for many people, it is the patient’s right to be treated by someone of a particular biological sex and to know what that is. We have to make sure that those feelings and understandable sensitivities—which are sometimes religious—are catered for.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I totally agree that the wording looks a bit odd, to say the least, and that we should give special consideration to the wording for people for whom English is not their first language. However, there are tens of thousands of trans and non-binary people who would be missed out if we did not spell out that trans men can still get ovarian cancer and trans women can get prostate cancer. Does the Minister agree that what we need is clear, incisive language, so that everyone can be aware of the health risks that apply to them?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes, absolutely. We all come at this from the perspective of making sure that health is front and centre, which is why the primary descriptors should be “man” and “woman”, as I think we all agree. Beyond that, we should clarify that “woman” may mean a “person with ovaries”—but the primary descriptor is “woman”. I hope that we can all agree on that.

[Baroness Meyer (Con)]

My Lords, given the lack of specific data on the consequences of NHS England’s adoption of gender-neutral language and services, does my noble friend the Minister agree that the millions of women who have been affected should have been consulted before such measures were implemented? Does he agree that, if medical records fail to document patients’ biological sex, clinicians would be at risk of giving trans people the wrong medication?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes. Once again, I come at this from the perspective that health is the primary factor here. Clearly, a person’s biological sex is a key part of the information on their record that any clinician needs to know, so that absolutely needs to be primary.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I will make a simple point with which I hope the Minister agrees. Is it not to be welcomed that we come up with language that is inclusive and reaches as many people as possible, as the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, suggested, and as is indicated in the framing of the information we are discussing?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes. To reiterate, I think that we should always use “man” or “woman” as the primary descriptor. For people with English as a second language, “woman” is very understandable. We can then be inclusive by saying a “person with ovaries”, so that we are absolutely clear. My remit here is health, so I want to make sure that most people, especially if English is their second language, understand who we are referring to when we say “woman”.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I am slightly reluctant to stand up and get involved, but I have done so previously, and I will continue to support the campaign led by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, to make sure that the words “woman” and “mother” are not removed from our language—I absolutely support that. I will muddy the waters a bit. There is, in medical terms, a syndrome called androgen insensitivity syndrome, which occurs in about two to five per 100,000 births. The person born is registered at birth as a female, because they have the phenotype of a female and external genitalia that resemble those of a female. They grow up as female, and the diagnosis is often not made until puberty, when they do not menstruate—but they develop breasts. They do not have ovaries. They often identify themselves as female for the rest of their lives, and they occasionally get married. I have looked after such a person myself. They are registered as female, they do not have ovaries and they sometimes have internal testes, which can become cancerous. So it is correct that only people with ovaries can develop ovarian diseases, including ovarian cancer. As I said, I have muddied the waters.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am not sure that there was a question there, so I might take the easy option of thanking the noble Lord for his comments—and for maybe muddying the waters—and moving on.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, all noble Lords have raised the issue and the Minister has put it quite rightly: health has to be the primary consideration, language is quite important, and how do we reach difficult communities who are isolated, whether for community or religious reasons, and so on? On a visit to Kenya last year, I was able to see innovative practices. Women living with HIV are 60% more likely to get cervical cancer, so local treatment centres were being used as a way of testing and screening so that comorbidity was properly addressed. The success of these campaigns was because they were backed up by using individuals trained in the community to empower and educate their community. They provide a critical service by building trust and confidence, because many people are reluctant to be tested and screened in the way that noble Lords have been talking about. That innovation has been incredibly successful in Kenya. Does the Minister agree that we can learn from that sort of thing and start doing it in this country?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Absolutely, and I hope noble Lords have seen that I am keen to learn from wherever. I would be interested to understand more in this case. As I think we are all saying in these arguments, it is about making sure that we are being sensitive and inclusive in language, but that we are also being very clear in our language about what we mean so that health always comes first.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, I recently looked at the prostate-specific antigen screening programme advice, which was very good and met the requirements that the Minister has set out. However, I got there only because of a Peer-to-Peer networking episode, where I bumped into another Peer who said, “You really need to go and look at the PSA screening”. It struck me then that this journey into screening programmes is still very confused and ad hoc. Will the Minister look at that and at how we can make sure that whoever you are and whatever your gender, your age and your other risk factors, you get the direction you need into the right screening programme?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord; he is always very good at bringing up some of those cases. I will look into it and make sure that we do that.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I welcome the untangling of linguistic confusion and the implications for policy. However, when the Minister says, “When we say ‘woman’, we all know what we mean”, I am not convinced that that is true in policy circles. Increasingly, inclusive linguistic demands are that “women” includes men who self-identify as women, which means that by-women and for-women provision, such as rape crisis centres, domestic abuse support and so on, is actually not women-only at all. When the Minister says, “We all know what we mean by ‘woman’”, can he make it absolutely clear that he means “woman” as in “natal woman” and not those who identify as women?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I guess what I am trying to say here—again, always with my health hat firmly on—is that I want to make sure that when we describe something in a health sense, I want that person to know that we mean them because we are doing something which applies to them, often in the case of ovarian or cervical cancer. By saying “woman”, obviously in most cases that will make it very clear that it applies to them—particularly to those with English as a second language—and they know what that means. To make sure we are covering all the bases, I am very happy that we have that secondary descriptor of a “person with ovaries”. I am trying to cover all the bases in an inclusive way so that the health message gets through.

Homecare Medicines Services (Public Services Committee Report)

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

My Lords, I am a bit slow in getting up. I will blame my son Xavi, who is in the Gallery. I was playing with him a bit too much this weekend, so I apologise. Now I am up, I will be fine.

I start by thanking noble Lords, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. This is a very important area about which, I freely admit, 10 days ago I knew very little. I guess it was my noble friend Lord Blencathra who raised awareness in the first place, but I think this has been an excellent example of what the House of Lords does really well, which is to realise that there is an area that needs looking at.

On the question from the noble Lord, Lord Carter, about whether we found a report useful: yes, definitely. I have a couple of ideas and I think the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has some good ideas on some of the next steps. I thank all noble Lords on the committee for their contributions and I am pleased that it is felt that the department has responded positively. I must admit that, in briefings, you can always tell when officials get it, are keen and have the bit between their teeth—and that is definitely the feeling I got here.

I will spend a few minutes unpacking something that impressed me: it really came home to me just how important this is, not just in terms of patient treatment today but for how we all want to deliver the service in the future. I call it the four Ps, on why I think this is important. First, there is prevention. I think we all agree that more prevention needs to begin at home, with home treatments and home testing services, to create a fantastic service in this area.

The second P is primary care: we want more care in the community and that is going to happen only if we have these sorts of services working really well. Noble Lords have heard me say it many times, but Bromley-by-Bow is a perfect example: they are treating patients with type 2 diabetes and CBT patients in their home rather than in hospital. But that can happen only if we have a really gold-plated homecare service, which they are able to provide in that very small instance. What we are really talking about today is the professionalisation of that type of service, so we can offer it much more widely.

My third P is of course patient care, brilliantly described through his own personal experiences by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, and the effect that that had on him, but also with the Crohn’s disease example set out by my noble friend Lord Mott, and the realisation that, as annoyed as we all often are when we wait all day for a delivery that does not turn up, in these cases we know that there are real-life consequences. Those consequences do not impact only the individual involved; they have knock-on consequences for the rest of the health service if patients have to go into hospital for that treatment instead.

Fourthly, I see the future in the area of precision medicine. I have started to understand that, by seeing what the likes of BioNTech and Moderna are doing, using mRNA to fight cancers on your behalf. This is personalised treatment, which moves away from the model of mass manufacturing in big pharma factories to a point-of-care delivery of services. That is why it is so vital to get this right.

The report’s title, An Opportunity Lost, is a perfect way to capture what we are trying to do here. We all understand that it is a complicated area, and there are very clear reasons why a lot of it is delivered through the pharmaceutical industry. It makes sense to have that service connected to it all, particularly as a lot of their treatments become more complex.

I think all noble Lords would agree with the point of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that we do not want the NHS to deliver on these areas, and that it has enough on its plate already. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said, we need someone who is going to grab hold of this. Leadership and management 101 is that you need someone to lead a business, and that is clear here. We will be appointing and announcing that person very shortly. I cannot say it yet but, from some of the comments made today, I think that noble Lords will agree that it is a logical appointment. I probably should not go further than that. NHSE and its service delivery will be included in all of this. To the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, all of this should absolutely begin now. A lot of this job is to make a fragmented service coherent.

As to what their job list should be, noble Lords set this out very clearly, and it is set out very clearly in the recommendations. I hope that that is clear in some of our responses, but I shall try to add some flesh to those bones. Number one on the job list is clearly data, and a common set of KPIs is fundamental to this. I was completely unclear on the sentence that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, read out—it was probably more than one sentence. I was none the wiser, so there is definitely a mark of “could do better” there. As the noble Lord, Lord Mott, said, we need clarity, a common system of measurements and complete transparency all the way through, accompanied by a clear complaints system. No business in the world would get anywhere without that fundamental data, in as close to real time as possible.

Secondly, I completely understand why the regulatory lead has evolved in this way. It is natural that the MHRA looks after the medicines aspect, such as efficacy and any side effects. It makes sense that the General Pharmaceutical Council looks after some of the dispensing aspects, but at the core of these homecare services is the delivery of treatment. As the noble Lord, Lord Willis, suggested, that is why the CQC is the natural lead for doing that. I will not comment on the assessment of noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, on its involvement in this to date, but it is about making it very clear that it is a priority. That is key: what we have tried to do will be the future, so it should be a priority.

On the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, my understanding is that meaningful conversations have begun towards that. It is quite clear that the CQC would be the natural lead because this is mainly about treatment and the delivery of healthcare services.

The third important thing on the job list is digital. It is amazing just how basic things are there. I am completely with the noble Lord, Lord Allan, that we should expect an Amazon-style delivery. We are all very used to that these days, where you get a message that your delivery is on the way. Providing that sort of information is not rocket science. We should definitely look at that, so that the service is at least as good as his cat’s service, if not—I hope—a lot better.

The fourth job is to provide clarity on the costings. As the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and others have said, the commercial confidentiality aspect should not be an issue. All we are saying is that, if they are charging £100 for an item, which includes both the medicine and the service delivery, there is an element—£20 or whatever it is—associated with the service delivery. My suspicion is that the power is with the pharma company here—that goes to some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carter. Often, the service is the tail-end Charlie in the whole set-up. As the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said, this is just basic operational and service delivery. We need to make sure that it is a very clear part of it in the contractual sense that the noble Lord, Lord Allan, referred to.

We need to do some training with our contractual negotiators. This is not just about driving down the price of the medicine—which I think we would all guess is the primary part of the negotiation—but, where there is a treatment component, is about making sure that the delivery is key. If the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, were here, that is exactly what he would say about value-based procurement. Small things going wrong with that can have huge consequences not just for the patients, as we have seen with the examples raised today, but through knock-on costs for the rest of the service.

For what I hope will be a constructive way forward, I propose that the senior responsible officer—the leader for all this—will be appointed soon. With noble Lords’ permission, I would like to invite him or her and the relevant NHS people to a round table with the noble Baroness’s committee. With them having had a bit of time to get their feet under the table, but not so much that they have already gone down the path too much, it would be excellent to have a hopeful round-table conversation. I hope that will be a constructive way forward to make sure that they are setting off on the right track.

As ever, when we finalise this all, I will write on any points that I have not covered, particularly on blister packs. We probably have been talking at cross purposes, so I will make sure that the point is understood and taken back.

In conclusion, this is definitely useful. As I say, I will come back to the committee with more thoughts, but one thing off the top of my head is that in the whole area of precision medicine there is just such an opportunity there for a whole new way of treating cancer—I hope that one day it will replace chemo, which we know is a blunt tool. There is a whole mechanism there for delivering which we will need to build on in these homecare-type areas, and that could be a very interesting area for the committee to look at.

I have learned a lot from this area, and I thank your Lordships for shining a light on it. I hope that noble Lords feel that we are getting the right attention paid to all of it. However, we absolutely need to continue to hold feet to the fire, and I know we can rely on all noble Lords, quite rightly, to make sure that we do that.

Covid-19 Vaccination: Coronary Disease

Lord Markham Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Farmer]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the connection between COVID-19 vaccination and increased prevalence of coronary disease.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Markham) (Con)]

The Government are taking action to tackle cardiovascular disease and coronary heart disease, including through supporting improved uptake of the NHS Health Check England cardiovascular disease prevention programme. There is no evidence linking Covid-19 vaccines to increased levels of coronary heart disease. All vaccines used in the UK are authorised only once they have met robust standards of effectiveness, safety and quality set by the UK independent regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. A considerable number of cardiologists, other medical practitioners and scientists have raised concerns about a link, especially among younger people, amid a pervasive sense of a lack of transparency. A reluctance to disclose the full gamut of information sits uneasily with the Government’s ongoing encouragement for people to get vaccinated. To resolve this, can the Government at least publish data on cardiac deaths in the ever vaccinated and never vaccinated by age group for 2022, 2023 and onwards?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for this question. The ONS has provided this information and made it available for research purposes to make absolutely sure that we get to the bottom of this issue. For the understanding of noble Lords, every medical vaccine has side-effects, but the MHRA has investigated this, and the side-effect that people are worried about is heart inflammation. One to two people per 100,000 who have had a vaccine experienced side-effects, but, for people who have had Covid, it is 150 per 100,000. Having these vaccines is a much safer route to go.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, there is one substance that we put into our bodies during Covid that has been clearly linked to thousands of excess deaths: alcohol. Are the Government carrying out studies into what happened with alcohol consumption during the pandemic, who was most at risk and how we can ensure that in any future pandemics we do not see excess deaths? We are talking about 2,500 excess deaths during 2022.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right. There were much wider effects and impacts in the lockdown, and alcohol intake was one of them; mental health, particularly of our children, was another. My sincere hope is that these are the kinds of issues that the Covid inquiry should really be investigating: the wider impacts on society caused by lockdown.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, a recent study published in Vaccine of a cohort of 99 million people who were vaccinated with one of the vaccines—either vector or messenger RNA vaccines—showed an increased risk related to myocarditis and pericarditis. The incidence, particularly among the younger people, was about one in 10 in a 1 million population, as opposed to the non-vaccinated who got Covid. That should be the comparison, not the non-vaccinated who did not get Covid. In those cases, things such as Guillain-Barré syndrome, which is a long-term viral fatigue syndrome, occurred at a higher incidence in non-vaccinated people than in vaccinated people, particularly with the Oxford/AstraZeneca number 1 vaccine, which was withdrawn. Therefore, it is a balance of whether the disease or the vaccine will make you more sick. With any treatment in any branch of medicine, there is always a risk to the treatment. There has to be a balance.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am sure I speak for the whole House when thanking the noble Lord for his expert understanding and insights. As he said, the evidence is very clear that while no vaccine is risk-free, what it saves you from is much greater. The very firm advice is that you are much better off having the vaccine.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister about the efficacy of the vaccine in preventing transmission? It does seem to be very good at keeping people out of hospital and keeping people alive, but we built the most immense edifice of restrictions around the idea that it was preventing the transmission of Covid. We had vaccine passports and travel bans, and it now seems that both the WHO and Pfizer knew at the time that its efficacy when it came to preventing transmission was negligible. Can my noble friend the Minister tell the House what his department’s latest assessment is of the vaccine’s ability to prevent giving Covid to other people?

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

The main thing that the vaccine did was prevent any bad effects if you did get Covid. While it might not have reduced transmission much, its main benefit was that it reduced the effects if you had it, as well as hospitalisations and deaths. Making Covid a less serious disease, basically, enabled us to open up the country and we were one of the first to get going again because we knew that the disease no longer posed the high risk that it did before we had the vaccines.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I have some personal experience here. One week after I had my first course of Covid vaccination, I had an attack of pericarditis and ended up in St Thomas’ Hospital. I am convinced that there is a link, but it is important to look at the longer-term effects—having an attack of Covid causes more heart problems, as well as having a long-term impact on your general health.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct. The MHRA study on heart inflammation, which he mentioned, said that there is that side-effect for one to two people per 100,000—unfortunately, the noble Lord seems to have been one of them. However, if you get Covid it affects 150 people per 100,000. On balance, if you have not had the vaccination, your risk is 22 per 100,000. The statistics are very clear.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister think that we need to do far more on public awareness of vaccines and their benefits? All sorts of people out there are spreading malicious tales about the implications of taking them, whether for mumps or Covid.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Absolutely. We are all very aware of the damage done by all the myths around the MMR vaccine 20 to 30 years ago and the impact that has had on people. The more we can get the message out, the better. As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, asked me yesterday, we have learned that it is about making sure that we communicate to all groups so that we can make sure that ethnic minorities and other minority groups get that information.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, after many years of stalled progress, the rate of premature deaths from cardiovascular disease continues to increase, for reasons that the British Heart Foundation describes as “multiple and complex”. The warning signs of this have been present for over a decade. As this phenomenon did not start with Covid, what assessment has been made of the contributory factors of government policy pre Covid and what steps are being taken to turn this around?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Deaths from heart disease among those under 75 are down by about 20% compared with 2010, which is a clear trend. Notwithstanding that, we are very aware—Sir Chris Whitty is concerned about this—that Covid meant that a lot of people did not get basic heart and blood pressure checks. That is why we have introduced the Midlife MoT, which is designed to give people a 10-year risk analysis; have put blood pressure devices in pharmacies and all sorts of other places to get 2 million checks; and have a workplace heart disease strategy check. All this is designed to get that prevention in place so that people are aware of and understand the risks.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, although we are talking about heart disease, we must also remember pulmonary embolism from clotting disorders, which can persist for up to six months after even a mild Covid infection? A massive pulmonary embolus is another cause of mortality in people who have Covid. One of the problems with the virus is its ability to mutate, but the evidence is that vaccination, even if it does not give you complete protection, moves you from obtaining serious Covid to having milder Covid. That risk of thromboembolism also needs to be monitored in the long term in relation to Covid infections, including for those who have had a mild infection and those who have long Covid.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely correct: a vaccine helped you avoid not just heart disease but all the other impacts of Covid that she mentioned, including long Covid and a whole list of other things. Again, the undeniable advice is that it is much better to have the Covid vaccine.