Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I suppose it would be apt for me to complete the Holy Trinity of faith. We have started with the Christian faith, we have heard a Jewish dimension and we have heard about equality and opportunity. As a member of the Islamic faith and as a practising Muslim, I say that, while I fully respect the House and I am grateful to the Chief Whip and the Leader, it is important that we reflect all traditions.

One of the main challenges that I have with this Bill is the lack of consultations with different communities. As many noble Lords will be aware, Friday is also a sacred day for Muslims, particularly in the middle of the day with the Jummah prayer. I just flag that point. I of course respect the organisation and the business of the House, but ask that there is time for those who practise the faith and choose to offer prayer by congregation in the middle of the day. Following on in support of my noble friends Lord Shinkwin and Lord Polak, I think that the diversity of our country, the diversity of the House and the respect of all traditions and faiths is something that should be borne in mind.

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I will first say, as a Catholic, that I have great respect for the three noble Lords who have spoken: the noble Lords, Lord Shinkwin, Lord Polak and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon. I like all three noble Lords very much, as they know, and I am sympathetic to the points they raised. It is why I made a statement to the House yesterday, after Questions, which I then sent to every noble Lord’s parliamentary email account. My statement and email sought to help colleagues with reasonable planning assumptions, in line with the usual conventions.

The Government would never seek, on a Private Member’s Bill, to force the House to do anything it did not want to do. My plan today is, if necessary, to return to this Dispatch Box at a convenient point around 2.30 pm to again give advice to the House on how we achieve a rising time of around 3 pm—it could be before or slightly after. At the end of the day, the decision is the matter for the House, not for me as Government Chief Whip. This is not a government Bill. The Government are neutral on the Bill. At this point, though, I think we need to move on from procedure and start debating and scrutinising the Bill and the more than 900 amendments before us, line by line, with respect and courtesy for each other and for the different opinions genuinely and sincerely held across the House.

Motion agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that point from the noble Lord.

I do not want to bring my own personal circumstances into it, but the plain fact of the matter is that I will not be able to participate in the next group because, for obvious reasons, I have to leave. I am a practising barrister. I set aside time to contribute—usefully, I hope—to the work of this House, but there are other pressures on time. If this were a government Bill, we all know how government Bills work. This is well beyond my unpaid pay grade, but it seems to me that we are perhaps trying to pour a quart into a pint pot by doing this Bill as a Private Member’s Bill; as I say, though, that is way beyond my pay grade.

I will sit down in a moment but, because of the exchange we have just had, I want to place on the record the fact that I will not be here for the next group. Having said on this group that the two groups are interrelated, I hope that that will not be a discourtesy to the Committee—certainly not to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, who is the sponsor of the Bill.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, as it is nearly 2.30 pm, it might be helpful to the Committee to know that, when my noble friend Lady Merron has responded for the Government Front Bench and my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer has responded, I intend to invite the House to resume; that will bring today’s debate to a close. That is my intention but, obviously, it is a matter for the Committee to decide what it wants to do.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

Can the noble Lord give some guidance on the issue of timing? As has just been indicated, if it were not obvious before this morning, it is now perfectly obvious that four days is not going to be enough for the Committee stage of this Bill. There is unanimity that this is an exceptionally important Bill and that this House has to carry out its constitutional function of scrutinising it. It would be enormously damaging to the reputation of this House if, because of timing, we were unable to do that task. Will the Government make government time available?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I thank the noble Lord for that point. As I said at the start, the Government remain neutral and will not be providing government time for this Bill. Obviously, we will look at things when we get to the end of our four days in Committee. I will then work with the usual channels to see what other time can be made available from non-government time, but we will have to see whether we will move on over the next few days.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

I say to the Minister that we are talking about four days. The general public know that a sitting Friday lasts from 10 am to 3 pm. People have made arrangements accordingly, and there are reasons of faith and things such as that which require that we respect that ending at 3 pm. On a normal day, the House would sit for up to 10 or 12 hours, so four days is just not enough.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I do not think I can add much more to what I have already said. We are debating the Bill. The House will adjourn fairly shortly, and I will have a discussion in the usual channels. There is no government time that can be made available for the Bill.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Is it not time that the Government look to give some government time to the Bill? As has already been said, this is one of the most important Bills ever to come before this House. For the Government not to give us government time, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has just said, is unfair to the Bill.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

All I can do is repeat myself: this is a Private Member’s Bill, and the Government do not have any government time to give it at the moment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It might be convenient to concur with what the Government Chief Whip has just said. We could finish in the normal run of things if there were fewer interventions and perhaps if the Front Benches could be allowed to sum up.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Since I was standing, I will be very brief. I support what the Chief Whip said. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said earlier. I agree with the Government Chief Whip about not giving government time, but we need more time to deal with this as a Private Member’s Bill. I do not think that any reasonable person listening to the debate and the expertise contributed from these Benches could have concluded anything other than that this was a debate that reflected well on the House and that we are doing our job seriously and conscientiously. We need to continue to do that. That is all I would say to the Chief Whip.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

As a final point, I agree with the noble Lord. As Government Chief Whip, I take my job very seriously. I love the House, and I want to do this properly. I assure the Committee that I hear noble Lords’ sentiments. I know how long it has taken on the Bill. I know that views are sincerely held on both sides. I will work in the usual channels to deal with these matters.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the insightful contributions that have been made to this debate. I will be very concise on the point. In summary, it is our view that workability concerns are less significant, although the Government are unable to confirm at this stage that the current drafting is fully workable, effective or enforceable. As noble Lords will understand, the amendment has not had technical drafting support from officials.

On this point, if the amendment is passed in isolation, it is likely to have minimal legal effect, as Clause 1 is essentially declaratory rather than operative. The remainder of the Bill would refer to the capacity to make a decision, which, as noble Lords will be aware from the Bill, is to be read in accordance with the Mental Capacity Act 2005.

I anticipate coming later to discussions on amendments to Clause 3, as noble Lords have referred to, as those amendments would change the operation of the Bill. I will comment on proposals when we come to the relevant debate. These issues are, of course, rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider, deciding which test is to be used.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th September 2025 Lords Chamber

Motion agreed.

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it has been a long day at the end of a very long week, at the end of this September sitting, when we have made good progress on the legislation before the House. I thank the usual channels and all Members for that most sincerely. As we adjourn our proceedings, I am sure all noble Lords will join me in thanking the catering staff, the attendants, the clerks, Hansard staff, the broadcasting unit, the security staff, the police and the doorkeepers for their excellent support in keeping the House operating and keeping us safe. I recognise, as Government Chief Whip, the pressure that this places on the staff of the House, and I will continue my discussions across the House to ensure that proper support is always in place when we return on 13 October.

I wish everyone a well-deserved break as we move into the conference season. For everyone attending a party conference, whether that be in Bournemouth, Liverpool, Manchester or elsewhere, I wish them an enjoyable time. For those who are not attending a party conference, they probably have the best deal, and I also wish them well.

House adjourned at 3.50 pm.

Care Workers: Foreign Worker Visas

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 18th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

We will hear from the Bishop next and then the Cross Benches.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, as we have heard, concerns around low pay and insecure contracts are long-standing in the social care sector. The Minister made mention of the fair pay agreement; can she explain how this will ensure that a living wage, living hours and living pensions will be paid to staff among the private social care providers?

Health: Ultra-processed Food

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we have plenty of time. We will hear from the Cross Benches next.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as recorded in the register. Last year, the author of the best-selling book Ultra-Processed People, Dr Chris van Tulleken, gave evidence to the Food, Diet and Obesity Select Committee, of which I had the privilege of being a member. He said that ultra-processed food

“is not a regulatory tool—I do not know anyone credible who is talking about using that definition to slap labels on things … the regulatory tool, in my view, should be fat, salt, sugar and calories”.

Does the Minister agree with Dr van Tulleken?

NHS Dentistry

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, next and then the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, the promised extra 700,000 appointments will mean just two extra appointments a month for each NHS dentist in England. The Health and Social Care Select Committee concluded in 2023 that the current dental contract is not fit for purpose, so will a new dental contract stop penalising dentists who take on more units of dental activity or patients with more complex dental needs?

Health Research

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

Let us hear from the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, will the Minister join me in acknowledging and applauding the work of charities in health research, particularly those such as Wellbeing of Women, Teenage Cancer Trust, many of the cancer research charities and Alzheimer’s Research UK? I declare my interest, but these are such a cost saver to the NHS.

NHS: Single-sex Provision for Staff and Patients

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, NHS England wrote to me on the—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

I think we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, first.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that once again we must reinforce the need to treat everyone with compassion, dignity and respect, especially in media reports that discuss protected characteristics and cases of alleged discrimination?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

NHS England wrote to me to confirm that any patient can choose the sex of a chaperone. Will the new guidance define what is meant by “sex” in that case?

Bread and Flour Regulations 1998

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, next.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I warmly welcome what the Minister has said. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for his work on this, as well as those who worked with me when I had the honour to co-chair the all-party group on this in the other place. On working in partnership with the devolved Governments, can the Minister commit to continue that work of implementation and enforcement through to 2026, so that families will be spared the pain of having babies born with neural tube defects, which is a particular issue in Northern Ireland?

Anti-depressants: Cost, Risks and Ramifications

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how many individuals have been prescribed anti-depressants by the NHS in England in the past 10 years, at what cost, and what assessment they have made of the risks and ramifications.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we are still waiting for the Minister, my noble friend Lady Merron, to arrive to answer the first Question, which I am very sorry about. I did tell people that we were not starting this afternoon with Prayers, so I am somewhat embarrassed to be standing here to tell the House that we shall have to wait a few moments for my noble friend to arrive. [Interruption.] Thankfully, I have no information, so I shall keep talking on the basis that at some point my noble friend Lady Merron will arrive and answer the Question before us.

[A noble Lord]

Filibustering.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Absolutely.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

May I express my gratitude to the Chief Whip for reminding me that there were no Prayers?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My noble friend Lady Merron is now here.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

I apologise to your Lordships’ House and am grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip, as ever.

In 2023-24, 8.7 million identified patients were prescribed anti-depressants at a cost of £220 million, compared with 2015-16, when the cost was £270 million for prescriptions to 6.88 million people. The NHS Business Services Authority reports patient prescribing data on an annual basis rather than a running total. All licensed anti-depressants meet robust standards of safety, quality and efficacy, constantly reviewed by the MHRA.

Government Policy on Health

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that there have been concerns over Labour’s appointment of donors and party apparatchiks with little or no experience to senior Civil Service positions, which have led the Civil Service regulator to launch a review into Labour appointments.

I accept that this case is different. We understand that the Secretary of State is new to the role and inexperienced. We also know that Alan Milburn brings a huge wealth of experience in healthcare both in government and from personal consultancy, advising one of the largest providers of residential care for older people. I have also seen reports that he is a senior adviser on health for a major consultancy firm. I want to be clear, this is valuable experience and I applaud the Government for seeking such experience in the same way that noble Lords welcomed the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, to review defence capabilities.

However, I am sure the Minister will also recognise the issue of real or perceived conflicts of interest—something that Labour Peers rightly questioned Ministers on when we were in government. So, in that spirit, I will ask the Minister a few questions about how the Government can look at potential perceived conflicts of interest and how they will be managed. Given Mr Milburn’s consultancy interests, can the Minister tell us what his formal role is? Is it a paid role and, if so, how much does he earn? Which meetings does he attend? Does he attend meetings without Ministers being present? Are notes taken for these meetings? How do the department and the Government ensure that he does not have access to commercially sensitive documents that could be of interest to his clients?

If the Minister cannot answer all these questions, I ask her to write to me and other noble Lords with answers and place a copy in the Library. Let me be clear, I completely understand why the Secretary of State appointed Mr Milburn—due to his experience in government and the private sector. It is valuable experience, from which a new Government could learn. I hope the Minister will accept my questions in the spirit of ensuring that the conflicts of interest are managed and there is real accountability, so that the Government can get the best out of Mr Milburn in his new role.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Before the Minister responds, I make it clear that these should be questions, not speeches.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, to set out some key points in respect of the right honourable Alan Milburn, he has no formal role in the department. Therefore, the conflicts of interest the noble Lord referred to do not even arise. The main thing I would like to set out is that it is very important to make a distinction between the areas of business and meetings in the department about generating ideas and policy discussion—it is those in which Mr Milburn has been involved, at the request of the Secretary of State—and the very different meetings about taking government decisions. If I might summarise it for your Lordships’ House: Ministers decide, advisers advise.