21st Century Fox Takeover Bid for Sky: Timetable

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. The Statement is as follows:

“As honourable Members know, Sky Plc announced on Friday 9 December that it had received an approach from 21st Century Fox to acquire the 61% share in Sky plc which it does not already own, and I then made a Statement on 12 December about the proposed bid and the process that would need to be followed.

I recognise that this is an issue of significant interest to the public and has raised a lot of interest in Parliament, as well as being a significant issue for the parties concerned. It is very important that I make clear the role the Secretary of State will play in this process, which is a quasi-judicial one. The Secretary of State is able to intervene in certain media mergers on public interest grounds as set out under the Enterprise Act 2002.

Government guidance on the operation of the public interest merger provisions under that Act indicates how the intervention regime will operate in practice and the approach the Secretary of State will aim to take. The most important concern for me is that the integrity of that process is upheld. The guidance makes it clear that the Secretary of State will aim to take an initial decision on whether to intervene on public interest grounds within 10 working days of formal notification of the merger to the relevant competition authority. No such formal notification has yet been made.

Unless and until a formal notification is made to the relevant competition authority, the Secretary of State will not be taking any decisions in relation to the bid. It is for the parties to formally notify the relevant competition authorities. It is at that point that the Secretary of State will need to consider whether any of the public interests specified in the legislation merit an intervention being made. The Secretary of State’s decision on whether or not to intervene will be a quasi-judicial one, and it is important that she is able to act independently and that the process is scrupulously fair and impartial. Given that, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on this proposed bid at this point in order that the integrity of the process is protected and that everyone’s interests are treated fairly.

But what I can say is that I and the Secretary of State understand the significant public and parliamentary interest there is in this matter, and we do not for a minute underestimate that. This is also clearly a significant issue for the parties to the bid. It is therefore crucial that the integrity of the process is protected. I will not be making any further comment on the process or the merits of the bid today. But I can confirm that this matter is being treated with the utmost seriousness and, should the parties formally notify the bid to the relevant competition authorities, the Secretary of State will act in line with the relevant legislation and guidance and in line with the quasi-judicial principles”.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for repeating the Answer to the UQ granted earlier in the other place. As I said last week—goodness, was it only last week?—the concerns of 2011 were not just about the serious wrongdoing uncovered by the phone-hacking scandal. They were also about the concentration of media power in fewer and fewer hands. I have no doubt that if this is referred, it will be referred successfully to the Secretary of State to act on the issues that have been raised.

More than 135,000 people have already signed an online petition calling for this bid to be referred, and the reasons for their concerns are the same as those which caused the previous bid to be abandoned in 2011. This all makes the kicking into touch of Leveson 2 and the suspension of authorisation of Section 40 look more than just a coincidence. I have two questions about process for the noble and learned Lord, which I hope will be sufficiently broad for him to be able to respond to despite his concerns about due process.

First, I note from his previous response that the Secretary of State will aim to take an initial decision on whether to intervene on public interest grounds within 10 working days of formal notification of a merger to the relevant authorities. Such formal notification has yet to be received, but it could happen—some would say it is highly likely to happen—over the holiday period. As there are a number of public holidays coming up, may I ask the noble and learned Lord to tell me precisely how many working days there are in the period of the Christmas Recess? To get him started with his calculation, I point out that the other place is not sitting tomorrow. If he needs more time to work this out, I am sure a letter would be sufficient, and I would be grateful if he could place it in the Library as well.

Secondly, there is the question of whether James and Rupert Murdoch—if they do acquire the balance of Sky—are fit and proper persons to be licence-holders of a regulated television service. The noble and learned Lord told the House last time that the Prime Minister had not discussed the bid at her recent New York meeting with Rupert Murdoch. He said—I think I paraphrase—that Mr Murdoch had apparently rolled up unannounced, something I am sure he is wont to do. Can we be assured that all such meetings with the parties are logged and published? Given that, last time round, it transpired that the then Secretary of State had set up a parallel, secret communications structure involving his special adviser and a similar person in News International, could the noble and learned Lord confirm for us who in the DCMS and elsewhere in Government have the authority to communicate with the parties? Will he publish a list of those so authorised, including civil servants and advisers, and put a copy in the Library?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I do not have a calculation of working days over the Christmas vacation to hand, but I assure him that the 10-day period is a guidance period. It was originally formulated by the then DTI and will, if possible, be adhered to. If the noble Lord is seeking a precise calculation of working days over the Christmas period to the point when this House resumes, I will arrange for that calculation to be made and endeavour to ensure that it is set out in writing, with an appropriate copy being placed in the Library.

Regarding the fitness of persons who are to be involved in this matter, as I indicated on a previous occasion, the question of who is a fit and proper person is determined by Ofcom, pursuant to the Broadcasting Act 1990, albeit that one consideration that will arise under the 2002 Act is the Ofcom code of conduct in respect of broadcasting standards, as set out in the Communications Act 2003, and the need for a genuine commitment to adhere to those standards. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will have regard to all relevant considerations when she comes to address the issue that she has to determine on a quasi-judicial basis.

There will be no question of special advisers being engaged in the process, and certainly not in the process of communication with any parties involved in this commercial transaction—of that—I can assure the noble Lord. That is not going to occur.

I am not aware of any further meetings scheduled between the Secretary of State and any of the parties to this transaction. If there were to be such a meeting, I have no doubt that notice of it would be given and a record kept.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

Does not the noble and learned Lord accept that the level of media plurality has barely changed in the UK since Vince Cable, the then Secretary of State for BIS, referred a similar takeover bid to the competition authorities in 2010? Does he not further agree that, this being the case, Mr Murdoch’s latest attempt at takeover should also be referred, as concerns about media plurality are still relevant today? Finally, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord remembers the Prime Minister’s conference speech, when she said that she would stand up to the rich and powerful on behalf of ordinary people.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am aware of the Prime Minister’s conference speech and, clearly, she will adhere to those sentiments. The present bid will be determined on its own merits and without reference to any precedents. It will be determined by the Secretary of State in a quasi-judicial manner with regard to its individual merits.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, my noble and learned friend will recall that the public interest test on media mergers was inserted into the Enterprise Act 2002 by virtue, not least, of the work of this House, led principally by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, of Queensgate, through the medium of the Communications Act 2003. Therefore, this House has in that sense a stake in the decisions made under the public interest test on media mergers. I wonder whether my noble and learned friend, through the usual channels, might seek an opportunity for this House to take a view on these matters before the Secretary of State has to decide whether to intervene, bearing in mind that, while there is considerable competition and diversity in content provision, there is not such diversity in respect of ownership of platforms and the decisions made by platform owners in broadcasting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. Of course I appreciate that the relevant public interest test was incorporated into Section 58 of the Enterprise Act 2002, pursuant to the Communications Act 2003. However, the legislation is absolutely clear: the Secretary of State has to proceed to make a determination exercising a quasi-judicial function. Accordingly, it would not be appropriate to lay her decision-making process before either House before that determination is made.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has made much of the integrity of the process and the role of the Secretary of State in determining the public interest. Would not the public interest best be served by the Secretary of State asking Ofcom to make another “fit and proper person” assessment of James Murdoch, who by only a gnat’s whisker got away with being declared not fit and proper last time? The situation is relatively unchanged, except that we have had the conclusion of Leveson in the meantime.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. I am not sure of the legal definition of a gnat’s whisker and therefore am not in a position to comment on the scope of the Ofcom outcome and its application to James Murdoch in those particular circumstances. Nevertheless, in so far as there is a relevant question of public interest, that is a matter for Ofcom, which will no doubt proceed as it is bound to in terms of the 1990 Act.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble and learned friend care to comment on the role of the EU competition rules in this regard, as the proposed merger will strengthen the dominant position enjoyed by Sky News in the UK, Ireland, Italy, Germany and Austria, so there will be a very clear role for the European Union competition department? I should declare an interest: I spent a stagiaire—an internship—in what was DGIV in 1978.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend. It will be a matter for the parties to determine the appropriate competition processes that will apply to this merger, and it will be for the Commission and the CMA to confirm when a formal notification has been made. I am aware that the 2011 bid from News Corporation, involving the acquisition of Sky Deutschland and Sky Italia, was both considered and approved by the Commissioner in terms of competition provision.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, last week I asked the Minister whether the Government intended to follow the recommendations of Lord Leveson, in his recommendations 83 and 84, regarding the transparency of meetings between the relevant parties and government Ministers—in this case Murdoch executives. The Minister said at that time that the Government had no intention of following those recommendations. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, however, he has just said that minutes will be kept of any such meetings and notice of those meetings will be given. Could he go that extra step and say to the House today that, in addition, the content of the matters discussed in such meetings will be made public?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I have already indicated that, in the event of meetings between the Secretary of State and the parties prior to any determination being made, no doubt the existence of those meetings would be a matter of public record. I do not go further.

Legal Services Act 2007 (Claims Management Complaints) (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Keen of Elie]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17 November be approved.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Legal Services Act 2007 (Claims Management Complaints) (Fees) Regulations 2014 enable the Lord Chancellor to charge fees to regulated claims management companies to recoup the costs of the Legal Ombudsman’s work in handling complaints from consumers about claims management companies. It is right that the costs of handling such complaints fall on the claims management services sector and not on the taxpayer.

The draft regulations before us amend the level of fees set out in the existing 2014 fees regulations for the financial year beginning 1 April 2017 and for subsequent years. Revising the level of fees will ensure that the Lord Chancellor can accurately recover the costs of the Legal Ombudsman dealing with complaints about the claims management services industry in the 2017-18 financial year. In addition to the Legal Ombudsman’s expected costs for 2017-18, we also need to take into account an overrecovery in the amount recovered by the end of 2016-17.

Taking both elements into account, the total cost to be recovered from the market for 2017-18 of around £1.6 million is lower than last year’s £2.3 million. There has been a reduction in the size of the market since last year, but the assumptions about future market change used in our fee model are still valid. Taking into account both the total to be recovered and the current market, the fees need to be reduced.

Noble Lords will be aware that it is intended to move the regulation of the claims management services sector to the Financial Conduct Authority, and in tandem with this it is intended to transfer the complaints handling for the sector to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Until this occurs, however, it remains appropriate for the Legal Ombudsman to deal with complaints about the sector.

I know that noble Lords welcome the fact that the Legal Ombudsman’s costs relating to complaints about regulated claims management companies continue to be met by the claims management services sector, in the same way that the costs relating to complaints about the legal services sector are met by that particular sector. Fees do, however, need to be reduced where this is appropriate to ensure that the fees charged mirror as closely as possible the actual costs of the Legal Ombudsman in handling complaints. I commend these draft regulations to the House.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, we support the transfer of responsibility for regulating this somewhat parasitic industry to the Financial Conduct Authority, not least because my noble friend Lady Hayter played a part in making the necessary legislative provision for the step that the Government are now taking.

Most of us, I suspect, will have been subjected to cold calling from a range of outfits of this kind. I confess to sometimes being tempted to adopt the approach that I heard someone once advocating—saving the presence of the right reverend Prelate—of saying, “I am so glad you called, I would like to talk to you about Jesus”. That could have the effect of shortening the conversation, although in practice, like most people, I simply put down the phone. But this is an increasing nuisance that we all have to contend with.

It is a nuisance that the industry has failed to tackle. It has an appalling record. Fines of over £2 million have been levied since 2015, and 1,400 licences have been revoked. In the current year there have been some 40 investigations, 16 of them leading to withdrawal of a licence. In 2013 there were 8,500 complaints, and no less than 76% of customers in a survey were doubtful about the benefits of using these companies.

The Brady report, which recommended the change in regulation, stated that,

“there is a widely held perception among stakeholders and government that there is widespread misconduct among Claims Management Companies”.

They flourish in part, of course, because of the withdrawal of legal aid, which, together with changes to court fees, has curtailed access to justice for many who need properly qualified advice and representation. The Government are consulting on the small claims limit, below which it will not be possible for a successful claimant to recover costs. Is not that move likely to increase the role of CMCs, as the Transport Select Committee warned as long ago as 2013? Moreover, we are dealing only with registered claims management companies. Are there statistics on the number of unauthorised companies which may be operating? What is the Government’s estimate of that number, and how can the companies be dealt with?

As the Minister said, regulation of the sector needs to extend beyond the—admittedly crucial and obvious—financial aspects to monitoring how it performs on behalf of clients and requiring minimum standards, preferably before licences are granted. This will no doubt fall to the Financial Ombudsman Service, as opposed to the Financial Conduct Authority. I take it that the two organisations will remain in close touch. It might have been better if one could have contrived a situation in which a single authority dealt with both aspects. However, presumably there will be communication between the two. In the meantime, should not the Government or one of the authorities involved warn the public about the risks involved in engaging with such organisations and offering independent guidance on which companies they should consider instructing on the basis of their past performance?

As I said, we welcome the approach taken here. Perhaps the Minister can indicate when the further change of responsibility involving the Financial Ombudsman will take place; it looks as though it will be some time in the coming year. We very much support the Government extending that element.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his observations on this matter, and I note the general level of support given to the regulations and their amendment in the current circumstances. On his last point, the transfer to the Financial Conduct Authority and the Financial Ombudsman is anticipated to be implemented by April 2018 under the present procedure.

As for the conduct of CMCs, the particular concern expressed is with regard to cold calling—unsolicited calls. That issue is being addressed as a priority. Indeed, the Claims Management Regulation Unit works continually with the Information Commissioner’s Office and Ofcom, which are the primary enforcement authorities in the field, to share intelligence and to target and investigate CMCs that indulge in inappropriate behaviour. The noble Lord himself observed how many fines and investigations there had been.

Of course, we know that many of these claims management companies are fleet of foot and alter their business model in the face of further investigation. For example, they no longer carry out this form of cold calling themselves: it is carried out by third-party bodies, which then seek to sell the product that they have harvested to the claims management companies. Steps have been taken to deal with CMCs which illegally purchase or acquire such unsolicited data; again, fines will follow. I acknowledge that this is an ongoing and developing problem. The Claims Management Regulation Unit is developing its response with Ofcom and the Information Commissioner to try to deal with that, but it is very difficult.

The noble Lord alluded to the introduction to the market of unauthorised operators, to whom I just referred in passing. Of course, the very fact that they are unauthorised and unregulated makes them very difficult to identify, pursue and deal with—but where they are identified, steps can be taken.

With regard to independent guidance about which claims management companies to go to, I hesitate to suggest that the guidance might be very short. It would be difficult to advance such guidance when in other sectors we do not provide such independent guidance. For example, we do not provide guidance as to which solicitor a person should consult or which barrister should be briefed. It would be very difficult to single out claims management companies in this context.

The increase in the small claims limit was mooted in the recent consultation document that was issued. We shall look at that; it may impact on the role of CMCs. Equally, a process of educating people as to the simplicity of making PPI claims may result in a reduction in recourse to the CMC companies. It is well known that what often happens is that these claims management companies harvest claims and essentially pass them to the banks to process. They do nothing other than act as a middleman, endeavouring to take a cut of the proceeds. Again, production of the consultation document and other steps are being taken to address that issue—in particular, the question of how far CMCs can go in securing fixed fees and, in addition, a percentage of the recovery they can take. Steps are being taken in that regard.

On the question of statistics on unauthorised operators, I understand that we do not have those statistics at present. I rather suspect that they would be extremely difficult to ingather—but if there is some data about the scope of unauthorised activity in the market, I will arrange to write to the noble Lord and place a copy of such a letter in the Library if the data are available. But I venture to doubt that such data are available in any meaningful sense. By that I mean that, beyond the fact that we know they do operate, it is very difficult to determine and measure the extent of that operation. I hope that that addresses the principal points raised by the noble Lord, and in those circumstances I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Press Regulation (Communications Committee Report)

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for securing this important debate following the publication of the Communications Committee’s report in March last year. I note the lapse of time before this debate could be held but nevertheless it is important that it has taken place. The matter of press self-regulation remains a fiercely debated matter, and it is pertinent timing for us to have an opportunity today to discuss these issues.

A free press is an essential component of a fully functioning democracy and it is vital that the self-regulatory system allows the press to operate independently and carry out its crucial function. My noble friend Lord Lexden observed that we have a diverse, irreverent, bold press which is woven into our freedoms and liberty, and that is so important. It is a point that was echoed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, and by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill. Moreover, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, concluded her remarks, she spoke of the need for a media that will tell the truth. However, that poses the question: whose truth? That becomes a real issue if government regulation goes too far, so it is important to look at this in context.

Since the Leveson report was published four years ago we have seen significant changes to the press self-regulation landscape. Indeed, even since the report of the Communications Committee was published there have been notable changes, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Best, in his opening observations. In March 2015, as the report sets out, IPSO had only recently been established with around 70 members while Impress was still in development. The Press Recognition Panel was recently set up and it will be almost a year until the self-regulator applies for recognition under the new framework envisaged by Sir Brian Leveson. Today we are in a wholly different place. Impress was granted recognition by the Press Recognition Panel in October, making it the first and only recognised self-regulator under the new system. The Press Recognition Panel spent many months assessing the application from Impress against 29 criteria set out in the royal charter. This included three public calls for evidence and the panel published its report regarding its decision on 21 November.

Meanwhile, IPSO has also developed since its creation in 2014. It is trialling a pilot arbitration scheme that has already been referred to which is likely to conclude next summer, and a consultation on the editors’ code of practice was recently launched by the code committee. It also, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, observed, commissioned Sir Joseph Pilling to carry out a review of its independence and effectiveness which reported in October, and indeed this was also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. I take issue with the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, that there was any element of a sham about that process. With respect, that appears to be a misplaced suggestion.

We of course accept that IPSO has publicly stated that it will not seek recognition from the Press Recognition Panel. The background to that lies in some of the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, about whether this would be perceived to be a government-controlled form of regulation.

I turn to the system of incentives developed to encourage publishers to join a recognised self-regulator. There were, of course, the exemplary damages provisions, which came into force in November 2015, and, as the House knows, Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 made provision for cost clauses, which have not been commenced. Unlike the exemplary damages provisions, the costs provisions clauses in the Crime and Courts Act 2013 did not have a specific commencement date.

Section 40 has been discussed extensively in this House at various times. It was designed to incentivise newspapers to join a recognised self-regulator. It contains two presumptions, with which we are familiar. First, if a publisher that is a member of a recognised self-regulator loses a relevant media case in court, it does not have to pay the winning side’s costs. Secondly, if a publisher that is not a member of a recognised self-regulator wins such a case in court, it would have to pay the losing side’s costs as well as its own.

As we have heard, Members of this House argue that commencement of Section 40 will bring substantial benefits for ordinary citizens by providing improved access to justice for victims of press abuse, as well as providing protections for journalists against the threat of high-cost libel claims. However, we have also heard from others, such as my noble friend Lord Lexden, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, that commencement of Section 40 could have a chilling effect on the press, particularly local titles, which may be threatened with legal action by those wishing to suppress stories that are in the public interest. They may consider it safer not to publish those stories.

It is interesting that in the course of this debate a number of your Lordships used terms such as “stalemate”, “uncertainty”, the “need for compromise”, and, “Is there a better way?”—a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, posed the question of why there is failure to produce a resolution at this stage. It is because of the continuing debate and the increasing recognition that there must be a middle way and room for compromise, as observed earlier.

It is because of these strong views on both sides of the debate that the Government decided to launch a consultation in November to inform next steps in this area. As the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport set out in her Oral Statement regarding the consultation, and again while giving evidence to the Communications Committee last week, this is an appropriate time to consider this incentive given the recent changes that have taken place in the press self-regulation landscape—changes that have been monitored by someone as independent as Sir Joseph Pilling.

The consultation presents five options regarding Section 40, ranging from full commencement through to full repeal. The consultation also asks for evidence regarding the impacts of these options on both the press industry and claimants. The Government are keen to hear views and evidence regarding the extent full commencement would have on incentivising publishers to join a recognised self-regulator. We do not shy away from that. We seek informed opinions from all sides in this difficult and demanding debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, raised concerns around Section 40, its compatibility with Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and the issue of freedom of expression. The Government remain confident that Section 40 is consistent with human rights legislation. However, we encourage those who have a contrary view to contribute to the consultation and to the debate in order that this matter may be bottomed out. I will make one observation. When the Minister certified the Bill for its introduction, there was of course no Clause 40—he might be forgiven for that at least. However, Clause 40, which was the product of an inter-party agreement, was moved as a government amendment. We continue to be of the view that it is convention-compliant.

Leveson 2 has been raised. Part 2 of the Leveson inquiry will be the subject of the consultation that is going forward. The consultation asked respondents whether the inquiry should continue either with the original or amended terms of reference, or indeed be terminated. It also asked for views and evidence regarding which terms of reference have already been covered by part 1 of the Leveson inquiry and by the criminal investigations—which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, have already been concluded. Therefore, that matter remains open for the purposes of the consultation.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Could the Minister write to those who have taken part in the debate without disclosing legal advice but nevertheless explaining how the Government can say that Section 40 complies with free speech and the convention?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am certainly prepared to arrange to write a short letter explaining the Government’s view that it does comply and why we consider that it complies without going into a detailed legal analysis, if the noble Lord would regard that as sufficient at this time. As I said earlier, I would welcome his contribution to the consultation process and he might wish to reciprocate by responding not to me directly but in the consultation with his own expanded views as to why he does not consider that Section 40 complies. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, observed, Sir Brian Leveson himself, a most distinguished judge, appeared to be of the view at a very general level that such a provision would comply with the convention.

I turn to one or two of the additional observations made by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Best, in a clear statement outlining the background to his committee’s report, himself observed that matters were far from resolved—a view with which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, concurred. He used the term “stalemate” with regard to the present position, which is why we have sought to bring about this consultation period. It is the one way to resolve such a stalemate.

My noble friend Lord Inglewood came up with a novel suggestion of tying in the complaints procedure to the operation of VAT. I have to confess that that does not strike me immediately as a use of Occam’s razor. The idea that we should merge our regulatory system of value added tax with press regulation appears at first to be a recipe for further potential confusion and difficulty—but I note his point about the various ways in which a cat can be skinned and of course we will give that further consideration.

I cannot accept the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, suggested that the Government had spat in Parliament’s face with regard to Section 40. I simply do not accept that characterisation. He asked whether there was a better way or a compromise. There may be a better way; that is the purpose of the consultation. It is something that we must seek to bottom out. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, observed that there had so far been a failure to produce resolution—which is why, again, we consider it important that there should be this consultation period.

The noble Baroness suggested that the Government had intervened to suspend commencement of Section 40. That is not factually correct. There was never a commencement provision in respect of Section 40, unlike in respect of the provisions of the Act with regard to exemplary damages. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford also referred to compromise. Again, that is why we are proceeding down the route of consultation at this stage.

I have already referred to the observations of my noble friend Lord Lexden, but they are worthy of repetition. He said that we have a “diverse, irreverent, bold” press that is woven into our freedoms and our liberty. That must never be forgotten.

The noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, raised the question of the recommendations in Leveson at paragraphs 83 and 84. I just remind him that paragraph 29 of the consultation document states:

“The Report”—

meaning Leveson—

“made recommendations on the relationship between the press and politicians. The Ministerial Code was amended and, as a result, all Ministers (as well as Special Advisers and Permanent Secretaries) must now disclose details of all meetings with media proprietors, editors and senior executives wherever they take place. This information is published on a quarterly basis”.

I add only that I take issue with the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, that IPSO is to be regarded as some form of ploy. With the greatest respect, that does not acknowledge the work of Sir Joseph Pilling in reviewing independently the setting up and operation of IPSO. Albeit it has not gone as far as we may have wished, or as many would have wished, and it may not go as far as the regulatory regime would at present require, nevertheless it has moved and at least in the correct direction.

Finally, I simply note that as we go forward I acknowledge the observation of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza: you cannot take democracy for granted. You cannot take the freedom of the press for granted, either. When we speak of “truth”, we must again pose the question of whose truth we refer to. This Government are determined that a balance be struck between press freedom and the freedom of the individual. Those treated improperly must of course have redress. Likewise, politicians must not seek to stifle the press or prevent it doing legitimate work such as holding us to account when required. The conclusion of the Communications Committee report makes clear the importance of finding an adequate balance between the right to privacy and freedom of expression. I thank the committee for its ongoing work in this important area.

[Lord Strasburger]

I need to correct an error that the Minister made in his speech. He described my speech as being critical of the Pilling review and calling it a sham. Hansard will show I made no reference to the Pilling review so it is rather unlikely that I called it a sham.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect to the noble Lord, he said that IPSO was a ploy and that the Government’s consultation was designed for only one response and was a sham, and he referred to the sham regulator IPSO—as Hansard will show.

[Lord Strasburger]

My Lords, I did not make any reference to the Pilling review.

Serious Disturbance at HM Prison Birmingham

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a Statement about the serious disturbance at Her Majesty’s Prison Birmingham on Friday. I want to begin by paying tribute to the bravery and dedication of the prison officers who resolved this difficult situation. I also want to give thanks to West Midlands Police, who supported the Prison Service throughout the day, and to the ambulance crews and the fire service who also provided assistance.

This was a serious disturbance. I have ordered a full investigation and have appointed Sarah Payne—adviser to the independent Chief Inspector of Probation and former director of the Welsh Prison Service—to lead this work.

I do not want to pre-judge the outcome of the investigation. As we currently understand it, at 9.15 am on Friday at Her Majesty’s Prison Birmingham, six prisoners in N Wing climbed on to netting. When staff intervened, one of them had their keys snatched. At that point, staff withdrew for their own safety. Prisoners then gained control of the wing, and subsequently of P Wing.

G4S immediately deployed two Tornado teams. At 11:20, Gold Command was opened, and a further seven additional Tornado teams were dispatched to the prison. At 1.30 pm, prisoners gained access to two more wings. Gold Command made the decision that further reinforcements were needed and dispatched an additional four Tornado teams to the prison. At 2.35 pm, the police and Prison Service secured the perimeter of all four wings, which remained secure throughout the day. Shortly after 3 pm, there were reports of an injured prisoner. Paramedics and staff tried to intervene but were prevented from doing so by prisoners.

During the afternoon, a robust plan was prepared to take back control of the wings, minimising the risk to staff and prisoners. It is important that in this type of situation the right resources are in place before acting.

At 8.35 pm, 10 Tornado teams of highly trained officers swept through the wings. Shortly after 10 pm, the teams had secured all four wings. The prisoner who had previously been reported injured was treated by paramedics and taken to hospital, along with two other prisoners.

Throughout the day, the Prisons Minister and I chaired regular cross-government calls to make necessary preparations and ensure that the Prison Service had all the support it needed. I want to thank the Tornado teams, prison officers and emergency services for their exemplary work.

As I have said before, levels of violence are too high. We also have very concerning levels of self-harm and deaths in custody. That is why we are reforming our prisons to be safe and purposeful places and taking swift action to deal with drugs, drones and phones. It is important to remember that these problems have developed over a number of years and it will take time and concerted effort to turn the situation around. While these reforms take hold, we are continually working to reduce risk and ensure stability across the prison estate.

The Prison Service is leading Gold Command to collect intelligence, deploy resources and in particular manage the movement of prisoners. This includes managing two incidents at Hull yesterday morning which were quickly dealt with by staff. To date we have moved 380 prisoners out of Birmingham and we are continuing to assess the level of damage on the wings. The Prisons Minister chairs daily meetings with the chief executive and senior members of the Prison Service to monitor prisons for risk factors that might indicate potential violence and unrest. Where necessary, we are providing governors with immediate and targeted support ranging from extra staff and resources through to the transfer of difficult prisoners and speeding up repairs or replacements to facilities.

As we manage the current difficult situation, we are implementing our reform programme which will reduce violence and cut the £15 billion cost of reoffending, as laid out in the White Paper. In September, we rolled out tests for dangerous psychoactive drugs in prison, the first country to do so. We are rolling out new technology starting with three prisons to prevent mobile phone use. We are recruiting for a new £3 million national intelligence unit to crack down on gang crime. We are increasing staffing levels by 2,500 officers and taking steps to train and retain our valued staff. These include a new apprenticeship programme, a graduate entry scheme, fast-track promotions and retention payments; we are putting an extra £100 million into this.

We are modernising the estate with a £1.3 billion investment programme. We are also empowering governors to manage their regimes locally to get people off drugs, give them the skills they need and get them into work. Importantly, for the first time ever, in the prison and courts reform Bill next year we will be making clear that the purpose of prisons is about not just housing prisoners, but also reforming them. Together, these reforms are the right way to address the issues in our prisons so that they become purposeful places where offenders get off drugs and get the education and skills they need to find work and turn their back on crime for good.

The issues in our prisons are long-standing and are not going to be completely solved in weeks or even months. We are working to ensure that our prisons are stable while we deliver our reforms. Of course this is a major task. I am committed to this and so is the Prison Service, and I know that governors and prison officers are as well. The next few months will be difficult, but I am confident that we can turn this situation around and turn our prisons into places of safety and reform. That is my absolute priority as Secretary of State. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, in thanking the noble and learned Lord for repeating the Statement I ask him to recognise that, but for the skill, courage and day-to-day resourcefulness of prison officers and governors across the prison system, there would have been even more serious and violent incidents than have occurred. The prison system is holding far more prisoners than it is resourced to manage. As a result, rehabilitation programmes are disrupted or not in place at all. To make matters worse, when there are riots those prisoners who want to do their time peaceably, take the courses and train for a job are prevented from doing so and therefore more likely to reoffend when released.

I put two questions to the noble and learned Lord. First, will he say whether G4S had fallen short of its contracted staff numbers at Birmingham? Then, on the wider question, when will Ministers accept and cease to deny that there are offenders in prisons who could be better dealt with by tough community sentences? Unless we use the expensive resources required for prison places more sensibly, as most other European countries do, and unless we address sentence inflation we will build up even more potential for future violence in prisons. Getting the numbers down is not a quick solution to the immediate crisis, but if Ministers do not begin to deal with it now the problems in our prisons and outcomes on release will just get worse.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to noble Lords. I begin by responding to some of the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. Staff in all our prisons, whether public or private, work hard to keep prisoners safe and to address the causes of reoffending. Our recently published data show no obvious differences in performance levels between public and private prisons. There are of course issues across the entire prison estate, seen in both public and private sector, and there is no question but that these are attributable to a mix of factors, including the increased use of psychoactive substances, the increased availability of mobile phones within prisons, the increased level of gang violence within prisons, as well as issues about retention of staff and numbers of staff, all of which we are seeking to address and have addressed already by virtue of the White Paper. So far as G4S is concerned, we robustly monitor the performance of all contractors providing services to the Ministry of Justice, and privately managed prisons are subject to the same rigorous external inspections as those in the public sector by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons.

With regard to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, as to the precise number of staff at Birmingham, I do not have those numbers to hand but I am quite happy to write to him and will place a copy of that letter in the Library once I have the relevant information.

On sentencing, since 2010, the prison population has remained relatively stable and static, at about 85,000. There has been a marked decrease in the number of those serving short sentences, by 1,500, but there has been an increase in the number of those serving longer sentences, especially for sexual offences and offences involving violence. Public safety must be at the forefront of our minds when we address these issues.

We are seeking to increase staffing levels across the entire prison estate and are investing in the prison estate itself—a £1.3 billion programme is under way. In February next year, Her Majesty’s Prison Berwyn will open in Wrexham. It will be the second-largest prison in Europe and will ensure that we have enough capacity within the prison estate to address overcrowding.

So far as an investigation is concerned, as I indicated previously, there is already a proposal that an inquiry should be undertaken by Sarah Payne, adviser to the independent Chief Inspector of Probation. We will await the outcome of that investigation before we decide what further steps should be taken.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, while those who have been involved in the disturbances must clearly be punished appropriately, does my noble and learned friend accept that what has happened demonstrates the evils associated with overcrowding and the lack of purposeful activity? Does he agree that we must take urgent steps to reduce the prison population? In the short term, I suggest an urgent review of all the IPP prisoners who have served their tariff. I also suggest that he consider executive release for those short-term prisoners who have served a substantial part of their predicted period in custody.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend. With regard to those serving IPP sentences, further considerable progress is being made. For the first time, during 2015, more than 500 IPP prisoners were released, compared with only 200 or 300 in previous years. In 2015-16, 38% of IPP oral hearings completed by the Parole Board resulted in a release decision. For the first time, the number of IPP prisoners has fallen below 4,000, and we are continuing to increase our efforts with regard to those prisoners. So far as the prison population is concerned, there are from time to time strains; there are from time to time pressures on prison capacity. However, as I have said, steps are already being taken in the form of the opening of new prison estate in the new year, which will relieve any such pressure. On sentencing policy, there are no further steps at this stage that I can comment on, but clearly we have in consideration the question of how the prison population is maintained. So far as work is concerned, increased efforts have been made to provide useful, constructive work for those within the prison estate, not only so that they can work during their period of sentence but so that they have an opportunity to move into work as they move through the gate of the prison at the end of their sentence. However, we must remember that something like half the prison population enter prison with unacceptable levels of numeracy and literacy. There are formidable challenges ahead. We are prepared to meet them—and intend to.

[Viscount Slim (CB)]

My Lords, I should declare that some years ago, after the comparatively easy escape by Blake and the subsequent Mountbatten report, I was instructed, with a small team, to speak to prison governors to see if we could make it a little harder to escape from prison. I was most impressed with the prison governors. We had a two-day seminar with every prison governor in Britain. I will not go into the details because we are time-limited, but two possibilities came out of that which had not been considered—and I believe have been forgotten since.

First, there is a helicopter snatch from a prison. Making a prison a no-fly zone will ease that rather than make it a no-go. Noble Lords may remember a very successful helicopter snatch from the Isle of Wight prison. However, the thing that perturbed us most was the possibility of a break-in to break out a top terrorist or top criminal. That had not really been considered at that time. With our enemy within and the way things go now, that ought to be resuscitated and looked at. You need more than a Tornado team to deal with it. You are dealing with armed intervention and explosives. There are devious and clandestine ways but a prison distraction such as we have just seen is ideal for such an operation.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Viscount, Lord Slim. It would appear that his conversations had some effect because 2015-16 saw the lowest number of absconds from prisons—105—since records began. With respect, the more immediate issue is not helicopters but drones. We have taken steps to introduce further penalties to limit the use of drones in and around prisons. Indeed, noble Lords may be aware of the recent conviction of an individual for the use of a drone to take material into prison. That resulted in a sentence of imprisonment for 14 months—not helping the issue of overcrowding, I accept, but nevertheless bringing home to people the risks associated with the use of drones in and around prisons.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall my noble friend Lord Beecham’s reference to the cuts in prison staffing. The Minister in this House, answering a Question from me, said that the way the Government calculated the need for prison officers had changed as per a letter saying what factors were taken into account. Is it drugs or violence—what is it? The Minister has not furnished the House with the justification for the government cuts in the staffing ratio.

This is not to do with the number of prisons being reduced, as the Minister said then. It is the staffing. It is no good and it will ring hollow to the loyal, hard-working prison officers when Ministers “support” them but are also responsible for cutting the staff who can deal with young prisoners, many of whom are semi-literate and ill educated. If people are shut in their cells for a long time, it is not surprising that their education does not improve. This is a scandal of the Government’s making; all the professional advice warned the Government that it was looming. We do not want more reports—we want action.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, that is precisely what this Government are providing. Let us not look back but look forward. We are looking forward to providing, more or less immediately, 400 additional prison officers, many hundreds of whom have already been recruited. We are looking forward to providing another 2,500 prison officers. As I say, let us look forward to what we are seeking to achieve, not look back to what has been.

[Lord Faulks (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure the House would be interested, if my noble and learned friend can tell us, in whether drugs played a significant part in what went on in Birmingham, although it may be that that will have to await the inquiry. However, can my noble and learned friend confirm that drugs are not only a problem because they tend to create aggression in prisoners, but because they also create an atmosphere where money is owed by one prisoner to another and gangs are set up, the combination of which is quite toxic? I note that the Statement said that the Government are rolling out tests for dangerous psychoactive drugs in prison. Will the Minister please assist us and tell us how that rolling out is going and what the Government hope it will achieve?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend. It is too early to say whether drugs played a direct part in the incident at Her Majesty’s Prison Birmingham. No doubt that will be the subject of inquiry during the course of the investigation, which I have already referred to. However, the development of a prevalence of psychoactive substances in prisons has been a major factor in engendering violence for the two reasons that my noble friend indicated. First, the use of these drugs engenders behavioural changes that lead to violent conduct, and, secondly, the competition for control of these drugs leads to further intimidation and violence within the prison estate—there is no question of that. We have struggled to address the issue of psychoactive substances but we have now reached the point at which we have developed blood tests that are effective in identifying their use. That has been a considerable challenge, and we are now essentially a world leader in that field. Those tests will be rolled out to control the use of psychoactive substances. It is believed that that will assist in reducing the level of violence within our prison estate.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that food, occupation and washing facilities are very important? Are these at a decent level in all our prisons? How many other incidents have there been across the country in the past year in various prisons? A few months ago, I visited HMP Moorland near Doncaster, and found it very run-down and rather dirty. Morale in prisons is so important. Does the Minister agree that well-trained prison officers can spot things before they happen, and that therefore there should be many more?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Baroness. Of course well-trained prison officers have the ability to identify problems that are developing, which those of lesser experience will not be able to do. Eighty per cent of the present cohort of prison officers have five years’ experience or more in their job. We are not only working hard to recruit new prison officers but we are working very hard on a programme for the retention of prison officers, because, as the noble Baroness indicated, experience is as important as numbers.

I am not in a position to comment on individual prisons on a case-by-case basis. However, clearly, what lies behind our intention to invest £1.3 billion in the prison estate is the desire to ensure that there are decent conditions available for prisoners during their sentence. I accept that there was an incident at Moorland. There was an incident at Bedford and there have been others during the year. Those clearly place strain on the prison estate, prison officers and staff in general. However, we are responding positively to those concerns. One of our principal aims is to ensure that rehabilitation and the opportunity for work and education are principal goals in the context of prison policy.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the answers that we have had to the questions raised. As the House knows, the Strangeways inquiry resulted in my giving a report and since that time, I have followed up what has been happening in prisons, not least because of my involvement with the Prison Reform Trust. Does the Minister agree that it has to be recognised that overcrowding is a cancer that can destroy all the best endeavours in prisons? I am afraid that any answer given to the problems which does not take that into account, notwithstanding what was said about building more prisons, will not really root out the problem because the sort of things which the Minister has talked about are so much more difficult. Finally, does he agree that it is a particularly difficult time in prisons when they go through a process of reform? That was true just before Strangeways and we are, I hope, going through a period of reform now. Are Ministers conscious of that?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord. We are of course conscious of the demands placed upon the prison estate and prison staff at a time of change. It will be demanding as we go forward with the development of the new prison estate. Clearly overcrowding, not on its own but as part of that terrible mix of issues, can lead to difficulty, danger and violence in our prisons. That is why we are concerned to address the issue of overcrowding as swiftly as we possibly can.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, when the Minister made his last Statement I asked him how bad things have to become in our prisons before we look to the Armed Forces to help. Given the seriousness of the current situation and how critical it is, should we now consider the use in some shape or form of either elements of the Reserve Forces or recently retired members of the Armed Forces or police to help in manning the situation in our prisons? If we lock prisoners up for 23 hours a day and treat them like animals, it is no wonder if we get the sort of situation that tragically happened in the last 48 hours.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

There is no requirement at this time to call upon outside bodies to assist with the maintenance of order within our prisons. That has been dealt with not only by prison staff in general but by the specialist Tornado groups that were called in and resolved the issue at Birmingham. However, in this context, as part of our recruitment programme we are looking to recruit former members of the Armed Forces who have particular training, service and expertise in areas that can come to bear upon the control of prison populations.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, could the inquiry look carefully at the role of G4S and other private contractors? There are many of us who feel that the incarceration of our fellow citizens should be the responsibility of the state and should never be contracted out. As this has occurred in such a prison, can this form a central point of the inquiry?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend. As I indicated earlier, all recent published data show that there are no obvious differences in performance levels between public and private prisons. We therefore consider that we should continue with our endeavour of ensuring that the prison estate can be controlled and provided across both the public and private sectors.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Does the noble and learned Lord accept that our courts could send fewer people to prison without there being unacceptable risk to the public? Has the time not come to review whether further judicial guidelines should be issued with a view to bringing this situation to an end?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, there are very detailed sentencing guidelines now available throughout the magistrates’ courts, which deal with about 90% of all crime, the Crown Courts and the highest courts with regard to disposal. They are constantly reviewed and considered in order to try to ensure that we can minimise the extent of detention as a punishment. Clearly, the hierarchy begins with the forms of disposal that would prevent detention, whether they are a financial penalty or some punishment within the community. That continues to be our policy.

House adjourned at 7.10 pm.

Criminal Justice System: Diversity

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the review by David Lammy MP of racial bias and BAME representation in the criminal justice system.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government welcome the Lammy review’s emerging findings and continue to support it. David Lammy has indicated a number of areas he wants to examine in more detail in the second phase of the review. We look forward to responding to the final report, due in the summer of 2017.

[Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. I want to give the House some early figures that we already know. The total number of young people held in secure institutions has halved since 2005, which is good. However, over the past 10 years, the number of young black prisoners has risen by 67% and the number of young Asian prisoners by 75%, meaning that one in four prisoners is black or Asian. In contrast, the number of white detainees has dropped from 75% to 60%. Does the Minister agree that these are shocking figures and that we need a vital step change in our policies for and treatment of young black people in the criminal justice system?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

There is no doubt that a series of complex reasons lie behind the figures that the noble Lord referred to and that custody rates among black, Asian and minority-ethnic males are materially higher than they are in respect of white males. At present and so far in his review, David Lammy has provided research findings rather than final conclusions. He has of course said that he is concerned by those findings but that the issue needs to be explored further before firm conclusions can be drawn.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, the Lammy review raises a number of questions. Will the Government continue after the review to monitor disproportionate outcomes in the criminal justice system using the relative rate index method of analysis pioneered in the UK in the Lammy review? Secondly, does not the finding that black offenders are disproportionately likely to receive custodial sentences highlight the urgent need for greater ethnic diversity among the judiciary, which the Lammy review is now also to consider?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are of course committed to greater diversity within the judiciary, and are endeavouring to take that forward. With regard to the particular statistics that the noble Lord referred to, there are a variety of complex reasons why these figures have emerged. For example, the rate at which black, Asian and minority-ethnic men plead not guilty at Crown Court and go to trial is distinct from those who plead at an earlier stage and perhaps receive a lesser sentence. The Government are not committed to any particular means of analysing the relevant statistics at this time.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, in addition to the measures that the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, referred to, will the Government look at increasing the number of prison officers, and magistrates appointed at the lower levels, who are recruited from BAME communities to participate in the administration of justice?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are clearly concerned that there should be a suitable element of diversity among magistrates and the other parts of the judiciary, and are committed to that. As the noble Lord will be aware, we are also committed to materially increasing the number of prison officers within our estate over the forthcoming year. A figure of 2,500 has already been referred to. That recruitment process will no doubt seek to engage with the issue of ethnic diversity.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

Will the Minister look at the number of black young people who are in care or have been in care who drift into the criminal justice system without any of the necessary support to prevent that happening?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are extremely concerned about the youth offender institutions and are taking forward the proposals noted by Charlie Taylor’s review with regard to introducing further education and training into that regime.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

It is not just in the justice system that black and minority-ethnic people are discriminated against. Is the Minister aware that, at a recent meeting of a Select Committee, the chairman of the Charity Commission had to admit that there are no black and ethnic-minority people on the Charity Commission, which is a disgrace? On top of that, there are no members from the whole of the north of England. The Charity Commission is an elite body run by Mr Shawcross and his cronies and something ought to be done about it. Will he have a word with his colleagues to see what can be done?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not in a position to comment on the constitution of the Charity Commission and I am obliged for the noble Lord’s suggestion that I should have a look at it. Clearly, I will. Beyond that, I am not able to comment.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord not agree that the disproportionate number of black and minority-ethnic young people stopped and searched by the police is a contributory factor to higher rates of conviction and incarceration?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It would contribute to those rates only if the police found something incriminating.

Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to seek an alternative contractor to take over the management of Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre, in the light of the recent inspection finding that the effectiveness of leaders and managers is inadequate.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, the recent Ofsted-led inspection recognised the challenges that the contractor, MTCnovo, has faced since taking over at Rainsbrook earlier this year. We are working with MTCnovo to put a plan in place to make improvements. This includes the imminent appointment of a new director. We are not seeking an alternative contractor for Rainsbrook.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, in October 2015 I tabled a Written Question about the proposal then to replace the abysmally failing G4S in the running of this centre with a US contractor with a controversial record and no experience of running residential establishments for vulnerable children. The then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, gave a somewhat bland reply. Ofsted has now produced a report covering eight aspects of the centre’s working, one of which was found to be good, five required improvement and two, including the effectiveness of leaders and managers, inadequate. Among the disturbing revelations, the report states that: reported levels of violence remain high, the use of force and restraint continues to be high; there are shortages of staff and an urgent need for the staffing situation to improve. How long are the Government willing to wait before taking action to ensure that this centre is managed effectively and safely?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Government are taking action to ensure that this centre and other centres are managed effectively and safely. In quoting from the report, it might be appropriate to look at some of the more positive observations made by Ofsted with regard to MTCnovo. As the report points out, and as the noble Lord is aware, the company took over this establishment from G4S in May of this year, but as Ofsted observed, the,

“transfer arrangements were poor and problematic … the inherited staffing arrangements led to too few staff transferring to the new provider”.

However, the new provider has,

“responded with speed and purpose to recruit more staff as a priority … Many staff and managers are demonstrating commitment and fortitude during this period of complex change”.

On the matter of safety, Ofsted observed that,

“the vast majority of young people report that they feel safe. In the survey completed for the inspection … 93% reported that they felt safe”,

in the institution.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, it has been stated that Rainsbrook had a new provider as recently as May this year. However, the transfer appears to have been bedevilled by poor arrangements for continuity of staffing and low staff levels, as was identified in the recent inspection. As has been said, high levels of violence and indeed bad behaviour are going unchecked because there are too few staff. Can the noble and learned Lord tell us what lessons the Government have learned from this inspection report about future arrangements for changes of provider?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is apparent that perhaps we have to apply more care to the transfer arrangements for institutions of this kind. Indeed, it has been proposed that the original transfer plan for Rainsbrook, which was to complete in November 2016, will probably extend to March 2017 in order to address these issues.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, has the House noticed that the Questions put to the Government Front Bench today have been answered by one Member from Wales and two from Scotland, while from the Opposition Front Bench we have had one Scot, and from the Back Benches a number of Scots, notwithstanding the excellent contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Does the Minister agree that this shows the value to this House of a whole United Kingdom and that we should redouble our efforts to fight the separatists who would split us asunder?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I concur with the noble Lord’s observations and would observe that this Government are committed to ethnic diversity.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the last two Questions have been looking at incarceration. The Minister may be aware that at this time 77 years ago the “Graf Spee” put itself voluntarily into incarceration in Montevideo because it had been outfaced by three British cruisers—three of the 420 ships we had in the Royal Navy at that time. No doubt the noble and learned Lord will wish to congratulate the small handful of survivors of that very famous victory.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Absolutely.

21st Century Fox Takeover Bid for Sky

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

With your Lordships’ leave, I will repeat as a Statement an Answer given in another place by my right honourable friend Matthew Hancock. The Statement is as follows:

“As honourable Members know, Sky plc announced on Friday 9 December that it had received an approach from 21st Century Fox to acquire the 61% share in Sky plc which it does not already own. The announcement made clear that the independent directors of Sky plc and 21st Century Fox have reached agreement on price. However, the offer is subject to further discussion, and Sky has advised that there is no certainty at this stage that an offer will be made. The terms of any deal will obviously need to be agreed by the non-21st Century Fox shareholders of Sky plc. The announcement also said that under the takeover code, 21st Century Fox is required to set out its intentions by 6 January 2017. The Government have had no prior information from either of the parties, and there has been no contact with either Sky plc or 21st Century Fox about the possibility of the bid.

The Secretary of State has power to intervene in certain media mergers on public interest grounds, as set out under the Enterprise Act 2002. Government guidance on the operation of the public interest merger provisions under that Act gives an indication of how the intervention regime will operate in practice and the approach the Secretary of State is likely to adopt in considering cases. However, the important point is that each transaction will be looked at on its merits, on a case-by-case basis. The guidance makes clear that the Secretary of State will aim to take an initial decision on whether to intervene on public interest grounds within 10 working days of notification of the merger to the relevant competition authority or the transaction being brought to her attention, whichever is later.

The role of the Secretary of State here is a quasi-judicial one, and it is important that she acts independently and is not subject to improper influence. It would be inappropriate for me or the Secretary of State to comment further on this proposed bid. In the light of Friday’s Statement, and given the role of the Secretary of State is a quasi-judicial one, the department is putting into place procedures to ensure that the Secretary of State’s decision-making process is scrupulously fair and impartial. These will include guidance for other Ministers, special advisers and officials on dealing with the parties to the bid or any other interested parties to ensure representations are made only through proper channels, the designation of named officials who will support the Secretary of State in her decision-making process and guidance on how they should conduct themselves, ensuring no one who has a potential conflict of interest is involved in the process.

We are, of course, aware of the wide interest from Parliament given the issues raised by the 2010 bid by News Corp for Sky and the advice DCMS received from Ofcom in December 2011. However, if a formal bid is made by 21st Century Fox and accepted by the Sky plc shareholders, then the bid will need to be considered on its merits and in accordance with the legislation. At this stage we cannot comment further”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, we too want to see public interest and fit and proper investigations before any merger is given the go-ahead. We certainly do not want to see an American-style Fox News in the UK. We also need to know what the Government are up to to ensure that they are—as the Minister said they intend to be—scrupulously fair. I have one simple question. Given the numerous meetings that have taken place between government Ministers and Murdoch executives and the recent meeting between the Prime Minister and Rupert Murdoch, do the Government now agree that they should implement Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations 83 and 84 immediately so that minutes are kept of such meetings and the content of the matters discussed made public?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I will respond first to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, on the fit and proper person test. Under the Broadcasting Act 1990, Ofcom needs to be satisfied that a holder of a broadcasting licence is a fit and proper person. That is entirely a matter for Ofcom. On a change of control, Ofcom may consider the issue but will do so only once the transaction has been completed.

With respect to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, of course the process of dealing with this transaction will be fair and will be carried out, as I indicated before, by the Secretary of State discharging a quasi-judicial function. There is no present intention to deal with the matters in Leveson that the noble Lord refers to. As regards his suggestion of a recent meeting between the Prime Minister and Rupert Murdoch, I point out that the only recent meeting was in September, when the Prime Minister was attending a meeting with certain journalists and correspondents from the Wall Street Journal and Mr Murdoch arrived unannounced, as it were, at that meeting. I can advise the noble Lord that there was no discussion at that time of the present transaction.

[Lord Inglewood (Con)]

On the Ofcom adjudication on the fit and proper person, will my noble and learned friend the Minister confirm that the Government will make no recommendation of their views either for or against?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

As I indicated before, the matter of determining fitness to hold a broadcasting licence is entirely a matter for Ofcom.

Judiciary: Independence

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the Lord Chancellor fulfils her duty to uphold the independence of the judiciary.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Lord Chancellor has fulfilled her duty and will continue to do so. Statements from the Lord Chancellor and wider government show that she considers the independence of the judiciary to be a foundation of the rule of law. She has emphasised that our judiciary is, rightly, respected the world over for its independence and impartiality.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Have the Government taken full account of the wide public disquiet that arose because the lurid and irresponsible attacks on some of our High Court judges were not answered immediately and emphatically? Have the Government taken note of a report issued by the Constitution Committee two years ago, which recommended:

“Given the importance of the Lord Chancellor’s duty to uphold the rule of law, the Lord Chancellor should have a high rank in Cabinet and sufficient authority … amongst his or her ministerial colleagues to carry out this duty effectively and impartially”?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, it is not the job of government or the Lord Chancellor to police the press headlines. Having considered the headlines and, more importantly, public reaction to them, the Lord Chancellor made a clear and timely statement that an independent judiciary was the cornerstone of the rule of law and that she would defend that independence to the hilt.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble and learned Lord on his forthright criticism of media and other attacks on the judiciary. Will he convey to the Prime Minister the disappointment of many across this House at the Lord Chancellor’s failure to be anywhere nearly as explicit in condemning those attacks, and will he offer her a short course on the proper discharge of her responsibilities in relation to this and other matters?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Lord Chancellor is well aware of her rights and obligations in respect of this matter. Many people were shocked by some of the headlines that we saw last week. I have yet to speak to anyone who actually believed them.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, refers to the duty to uphold the independence of the judiciary, but the Lord Chancellor also has a duty, under the Constitutional Reform Act, to have regard to the need to defend that independence. I am afraid that many believe that she singularly failed in both those duties following the decision of the High Court on 3 November. Will the noble and learned Lord convey to the Lord Chancellor how seriously this House takes both those duties and ensure that she is fully briefed on what is required of her should the Supreme Court come under an attack similar to that levelled at the judges of the High Court after the decision earlier this month?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Lord Chancellor takes her duties towards the judiciary every bit as seriously as this House.

[Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

My Lords, does my noble and learned friend recall that in the report referred to by my noble friend Lord Lexden the Constitution Committee recognised that every member of the Government has a duty to uphold the law but that the Lord Chancellor has a special position, in that he or she has a duty to ensure that the Government as a whole uphold respect for the law, and that included in that is the independence of the judiciary? Would my noble and learned friend be willing to revisit the committee’s recommendation that the oath of the Lord Chancellor, as enshrined in the 2005 Act, should be revisited and strengthened?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is not considered necessary that the oath should be revisited. The oath of the Lord Chancellor is to respect the rule of law, defend the independence of the judiciary and discharge her duty to ensure the provision of resources for the efficient and effective support of the courts. That is the duty that she has addressed and discharged.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, we all value the freedom of press comment, but when judges are attacked in inflammatory terms and cannot answer back there is machinery in the Constitutional Reform Act for the judiciary to be defended without delay. Here, there was intolerable delay before the Minister spoke. Will the noble and learned Lord invite her to read Sections 3(1) and 3(6) of the Constitutional Reform Act, which spell out her duty in clear and unambiguous terms?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Lord Chancellor is well aware of her obligations in terms of Section 3 of the Act and has addressed those obligations. It was not appropriate that she should give a knee-jerk reaction to sensationalist headlines. What she did was to consider a series of press reports and the public reaction to those, and then respond in a coherent and timely manner.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble and learned friend accept that his response in this House last week was exemplary?

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I see no distinction between my response and that of my right honourable friend.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the whole House would want to echo the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. However, the issue here is timeliness. The noble and learned Lord has told the House that he believes that the Lord Chancellor’s response was timely. Would he like to reconsider that view?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I see no reason to reconsider that view. It is important to remember that neither the Lord Chancellor nor any other member of the Government is here to police a free press. It is necessary for the Lord Chancellor to have regard to not only what the press have reported but the public reaction to that, and then take a considered position on that matter. I reiterate a point I made earlier: I have met many people who were shocked by some of these headlines; I have met no one who believed them.

Prison Officers’ Association: Protest Action

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice. The Statement is as follows:

“I am grateful to the honourable Member for the chance to update the House on this important issue. Prison officers do a tough and difficult job and I have been clear that we need to make prisons safer and more secure. I have announced that an extra 2,500 officers will be recruited to strengthen the front line. We are already putting in place new measures to tackle the use of dangerous psychoactive drugs and improve security across the estate.

I met the Prison Officers’ Association on 2 November, and over the past two weeks my team has been holding talks with the POA on a range of measures to improve safety. These talks were due to continue this morning. Instead, the POA failed to respond to our proposals and called this unlawful action without giving any notice. The chief executive of NOMS, Michael Spurr, spoke to POA chairman Mike Rolfe this morning, reiterating our desire to continue talks today. The union’s position is unnecessary and unlawful and it will make the situation in our prisons more dangerous. We are taking the necessary legal steps to end this unlawful industrial action.

The Government are committed to giving prison officers and governors the support that they need to do their job and to keep them safe from harm. In addition to recruiting an extra 2,500 prison officers, we are rolling out body-worn cameras across the prison estate; we have launched a £3 million major crimes task force to crack down on gangs and organised crime; in September we rolled out new tests for dangerous psychoactive substances; and we have trained 300 dogs to detect these new drugs. We have set up a daily rapid response unit led by the Prime Minister to make sure that governors and staff have all the support that they need. Taken together, these measures will have a real and swift impact on the security and stability of prisons while we recruit additional front-line staff. I urge the Opposition Front Bench to join me in condemning this unlawful action and calling on the POA to withdraw this action and to get back to the negotiating table”.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, last week in his valiant if unavailing defence of the Government's prisons policy the Minister justified its failure, even in the light of recent events, to restore staffing levels to where they were four years ago by citing the fact that a number of prisons had closed. But it is not the ratio of prison officers to prisons that is the issue; it is the ratio of properly trained and supported staff to the number of prisoners which is relevant. Given that there is no sign of any policy calculated to reduce that number, how can the reduction in the number of officers—last week’s announcement that some 2,500 will be recruited over the next few years will still leave a shortage of 4,500—be expected to transform the situation?

Will the Secretary of State sit down now with the representatives of this dedicated workforce to discuss ways in which the present crisis can be urgently alleviated? Will she initiate a comprehensive review of the whole service as thorough as the Woolf review following the Strangeways riots as long ago as 1991? Is the issue of an injunction likely to lead to the kind of discussion that will resolve this matter?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice has made it clear that she will sit down with the Prison Officers’ Association to discuss this matter as soon as it withdraws this unlawful action. She would be anxious to take forward such discussions.

The noble Lord referred to prison officer numbers. That is an issue, but it is an issue that is part of a wider problem. It is not just a question of prison officer numbers; it is a matter of training, retention, the prison estate itself having to be improved, attempts to bring down the number of prisoners using psychoactive substances, the question of safety and in particular of violence in prisons, and the need to develop suitable means of education and reform within our prisons. In other words, we have to accept that this is a complex algorithm that cannot be reduced to a simple binary issue about prison numbers.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

Of course we do not support the prison officers’ unlawful industrial action, but that does not mean that we do not sympathise with them over what has got us here: too many people sent to prison, particularly for short sentences, overcrowding, too few staff, too much time for prisoners in their cells and inadequate education and purposeful activity. Consequently we have what we have spoken of many times in this House: a crisis of increasing violence and deaths among staff and prisoners. It is no wonder that prison officers often feel extremely unsafe. Frankly, 2,100 extra officers by 2018 is too little, too late. We need twice that number and we need them much more quickly. When talks with the Prison Officers’ Association resume, will the Government reconsider the number of new officers to be recruited, the timing of their recruitment and those other issues that, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, the noble and learned Lord just mentioned —issues about training, about retention and about conditions for prison officers in relation to violence?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. I would point out that these issues have now been addressed by the White Paper announcement and will be taken forward in the context of that White Paper in order that they can be debated and, hopefully, resolved.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, while condemning the unlawful action taken by prison officers, perhaps I may remind my noble and learned friend that we appear to be twice as wicked as the French and the Germans when we work out how many people are put in prison. I cannot believe that. Do we not have to address the fundamental issue that Britain locks up lots of people that no one else does and that our record has therefore not improved? Until we face that, I do not see how we will deal with a whole range of other issues, and prison officers are only making it worse.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I quite understand the concern that we might be perceived to be twice as wicked as the French. Nevertheless, I would point out that all of these statistics are relative across the world and, if we compare ourselves with other jurisdictions, we find that our prison population is much lower per head of population than it is in many other western societies. At the present time, it is not considered that the resolution of this issue lies in sentencing policy; it lies in reform of the prison estate and those who have to work so hard to maintain it.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell me how any review will look at the need for registered nurses and medics to get more involved in our prisons in order to help prison officers cope with people with long-term mental health problems, many of whom should not be in prison anyway? I stand here in my 60s, having worked in Brixton prison in my 30s from the Maudsley hospital doing just what I said, and then doing the same work in both Dartmoor and Exeter prisons. However, these kinds of in-reach programmes are actually being reduced, due to shortages in the NHS and academia, rather than increased.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Baroness. Of course mental health issues are a major problem within our prison estate. There is no question but that a very large proportion of those in our prisons suffer in one form or another from mental health issues, some of them induced by the use of illegal drugs, in particular psychoactive substances. That breeds difficulty, despair and indeed violence. We are attempting to address this at the present time, and again I would point to the issues raised in the context of the White Paper. We are determined to make progress in this matter.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has twice recently referred, in answer to my questions, to the fact that the staffing levels the Government are bringing in will meet their benchmark as a refutation of the need for more officers. Would he care to write to me, and put a copy in the Library, if he can think of any other issues to be addressed beyond violence, escapes, suicides, self-harm, stabbings, attacks, riots, lockdowns—stopping the healthcare work just referred to by the noble Baroness going ahead—and preventing reoffending? How did the Government calculate their benchmark and which of these issues are now being tackled successfully in their prisons?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

A benchmarking exercise was carried out some time ago to determine prison officer numbers in the context of the prison estate. The benchmarking exercise is being reconsidered going forward, but I am content to write to the noble Baroness outlining what the Government position is with respect to that and where we hope that it will be taken.

[Baroness Sharples (Con)]

Can my noble and learned friend tell us how many prisons have writers in residence? Surely if prisoners were kept occupied, this would put less pressure on prison officers.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I cannot say how many prisons have writers in residence, but I would suggest that the problems within our prisons at the present time go rather deeper than occupational therapy in the form of writing. However, I will write to my noble friend with the details she requests.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, how bad do things have to get in the short term before we call on military support?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

There is no question or suggestion of such a thing. In this context, I make clear there is a national response team organisation to deal with unrest in our prisons. For example, the recent incident at Bedford was resolved when the national response team moved into the prison.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister consider a radical approach towards those offenders with mental health issues, with the possibility of probation with a requirement for residential care? That would remove a great many people from the prisons and allow them to be treated, with some ability to be rehabilitated.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Government are of course always open to any suggestion that might improve the situation in our prisons. I take on board the observations of the noble and learned Baroness.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, to follow that question, the Minister has said there is an overwhelming number of mental health problems in our prisons. Is not the reality even worse, in that many of these people should never have been in prison at all? The experience of prison is counterproductive to their ability to build a future and to their well-being. What attention are we giving to providing alternative arrangements for mentally ill or mentally disturbed people? Would he not agree that it is a matter not just of numbers, although of course numbers matter, but of the purpose, dynamic and morale of the Prison Service? It makes nothing but economic and humane sense to have rehabilitation as the priority in safe custody. Can we please reassert the importance of this word “rehabilitation” and make it central to the purpose of the Prison Service?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. Clearly, our sentencing policy embraces more than just custodial sentences and has done for some considerable time. Clearly, the morale of those working in a difficult environment in our prisons is an issue. The noble Lord raised in particular rehabilitation. That lies at the very heart of our proposed reforms, not just with rehabilitation taking place in prisons, but with rehabilitation that will take prisoners through the gates of the prison and back into the community so that we avoid the present situation, in which more than half of those sentenced to a period of imprisonment return to prison in a relatively short period of time.

Prisons: Violence

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to address reports of increasing levels of violence in prisons.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, improving safety and decreasing the level of violence is an urgent priority for this Government. We recently set out our plans for prison safety and reform in a White Paper. We will invest in 2,500 more prison officers across the prison estate. This includes the recruitment by March 2017 of 400 additional prison officers into 10 of our most challenging prisons.

[Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab)]

The Minister is well aware of the many issues that have contributed to the recent rise in the level of violence in the prison system, including huge disinvestment during the past five years, major staff shortages, overcrowding and lack of access to good mental health care. I shall focus my question on just one area: the misuse of drugs. The Government’s recent White Paper acknowledges that the increased use of psychoactive substances in prisons is without doubt a major contributory factor to the rise in violence. The Government’s response is to tackle the supply of drugs and improve mandatory drug testing. It is a laudable aim, but does the Minister agree that drug testing can contribute to reducing drug misuse only when it is used as part of a comprehensive drug strategy that also addresses demand?

The White Paper states that the Government will reassess their approach to tackling supply and demand. However, with the cost of mandatory drug testing and current staffing issues, what assurances can the Minister give that a comprehensive drug strategy that tackles both supply and demand, and includes class A drugs, psychoactive substances and prescription drugs, will be developed and appropriately funded, and on what timescale?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. Clearly, our concern is not only to reduce the availability and supply of drugs in prisons but to address the demand for them, which is a very complex problem. The noble Lord referred in particular to psychoactive substances. They pose a problem of their own, which is the ability to test for such substances effectively. Great progress has been made in that regard and we now have an effective means of testing for the common psychoactive substances that we find being abused in our prisons.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I speak as head of the Sikh prison chaplaincy service. Overcrowding is a major contributory factor to violence in prisons, and a major cause of overcrowding is repeat offending. Sikh chaplains are instructed to work with local communities to break the cycle of reoffending by providing work and accommodation for released prisoners. Does the Minister agree that the National Offender Management Service and the chaplaincy council should encourage chaplains of all faiths to make rehabilitation central to their work? Does he further agree that an element of competition between different faiths to reduce reoffending would be no bad thing?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I certainly concur with the noble Lord’s observation about the need for rehabilitation. That is why the Government are addressing through-the-gate support for those who leave our prisons. On competition between various faiths, I would leave that to others.

[The Lord Bishop of Salisbury]

My Lords, I have been in and out of prisons quite a lot, usually in support of the excellent multifaith chaplaincies that attest to the importance of the spirit of human beings. In recent years, there has been an alarming rise in the number of suicides, and in self-harm and violence. The recently published strategy for prison safety and reform is very welcome. Does the Minister agree that an imaginative and creative approach to education and the development of people’s spirit is an essential part of prison life for all those who have offended and are being punished?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I entirely concur with the observations of the right reverend Prelate. Self-harm and suicide are disturbing and persistent problems, which we seek to address. We are already taking steps to provide prisoners at risk of suicide or self-harm with mental health support. The NOMS suicide and self-harm reduction project includes collaborative work with NHS England and Public Health England.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, as with hospitals, schools and businesses, leadership in our prisons is vital. While the average length of tenure for a prison governor is three and a half years, could my noble and learned friend outline what percentage of prison governors move on after less than two years? Do the Government have any strategy to ensure that governors stay in post for a length of time that enables there to be stability at the top?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

On strategy, the Government have already indicated in the White Paper their determination to devolve greater responsibility to individual governors for their particular establishments. I do not have the figures for tenure of governors, however, and I undertake to write to my noble friend about that.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that under the coalition there were 30% staffing cuts in the Prison Service? We lost 7,000 full-time posts. The Government now propose to recruit 2,500 apparently to cover that gap, mindful of the fact that the salary for somebody in the London area is less that £21,000. Will he acknowledge that it will be impossible for those 2,500 extra people to make good the numbers so as to stop self-harm, suicide and disorder?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We must always aim to stop self-harm, suicide and disorder in our prisons. The number of prison officers has reduced since 2010 due to the closure of some old prisons which gave poor value for money, delivering the savings under the 2010 spending review and bringing staff numbers into line with benchmark standards. Of course, we have now reviewed those benchmark standards, which is why we are determined to introduce an additional 2,500 staff. Furthermore, we are addressing the issue of recruitment and retention of staff.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, our prisons are a national embarrassment and a disgrace. Many former Ministers should hang their heads in shame. Timpson, the retail chain, is an exemplar in employing ex-offenders: 10% of its 4,500 employees are ex-offenders and it runs seven prison training academies. What are the Government doing to encourage more employers to adopt Timpson’s commendable positive approach?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are making very real efforts to ensure that not only the employer mentioned but many others engage in providing work within our prisons. This programme is extending all the time. There are demands and limitations because of the geography and nature of our prison establishment but we are investing £1.3 billion in the prison estate to make work opportunities more available.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister think that all prison staff are adequately trained to deal with very difficult prisoners? Does he also think that gangs should be dispersed to different prisons when they are in the same prison?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

On staff training, again, that is addressed in the White Paper. We are introducing an apprenticeship scheme to accelerate training for staff. We are also looking at the recruitment of staff from the armed services, with a background that will enable them to integrate more easily into the work and demands of the Prison Service.