CHOGM, G7 and NATO Summits

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I think the noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that I do not have that level of detail. I ask him not to take that as any answer; I am afraid I simply do not know. If I could write to him, it would be for the best. I am happy to share the letter, in the Library, with other noble Lords.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for being one minute and 30 seconds late, but may I return to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem? There is the figure of 2.5% of GDP by the end of this decade; we are investing troops in Estonia and there is the possibility of a European war that could escalate beyond this continent. Can we please keep these figures carefully in mind? Could my noble friend assure me that we have the ammunition—having rightly given so much to the Ukrainians—to sustain action for significantly longer than indicated in the rather authoritative article in today’s Times?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Certainly; that is a priority of the Ministry of Defence. We have been clear that we need to invest for the long term, and that is what we will continue to do. That is why we have increased defence spending by over £24 billion over the next four years and have said that we will be making further investments to reach 2.5% of GDP being spent on defence by the end of the decade.

Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 28th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness; she makes stimulating speeches. She does tend to overegg the pudding a bit; nevertheless, I listen to her with great interest, and I am delighted to follow her.

Free speech is more important than anything else—and we in this place ought to know that better almost than anyone. “The price of liberty,” said Burke—and of course, liberty without free speech is impossible—“is eternal vigilance.” I am glad that we are having this debate because there is currently a tendency among some to be a bit complacent. One thinks of some pretty horrific examples: Kathleen Stock, who has been mentioned by noble Lords on two or three occasions, and JK Rowling.

One of the cancers of our age, which makes the proliferation of coarse speech and crude attack so much easier, is social media. Many in our universities, and others, use this, and many suffer from it, so it is right for us to ask: what can we do about it? But I do not think a Bill like this is necessarily the best way forward.

Those who have questioned the wisdom of the Bill have more than a point. I say to my noble friend—who introduced the Bill with his characteristic gentle elegance and in whom I have as much trust as I have in anyone in political life—that it needs to be significantly improved if it is to go on the statute books and fulfil its purpose. I do not think we need such a Bill but, clearly, we are going to have one, so it is the duty of your Lordships’ House to make it as effective as possible, and as least disruptive as possible.

Speaking as one who has the honour to have been a visiting fellow at St Antony’s College, Oxford, who helped to found the parliamentary fellowship scheme 30 years ago, and who is still admitted to the senior common room—I have also visited many other universities, and I am on the court of Lincoln University—I believe that we have institutions of which we can be truly proud. But it is very important indeed that students are exposed to views and attitudes that they consider to be offensive, because that itself is stimulating. Unless you can produce a counter-argument, you have not understood the argument. It is crucial that our young people are stimulated and exposed to a variety of views, just as they should be exposed to a variety of academic and scientific disciplines. I very much hope that one thing that will be a casualty of this Bill is the so-called “trigger” movement. It has been dismissed, I am glad to say, but it was even suggested that the online version of Hansard should be adorned with trigger warnings that there may be some offensive language to follow.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Shame.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Indeed, shame. I believe we have had that dealt with.

We know about the counterculture and the cancelling because earlier this year four of us were complained about to the Commissioner for Standards because of remarks we had made in a good, vigorous and brief debate on an amendment to a Bill that sought to end the presence of physically intact males in women’s prisons. The committee, now chaired rather splendidly by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, rewrote some of the rules and guidance, and the fundamental right that Members of both Houses have enjoyed since the Bill of Rights in 1689 was underlined thrice. That is as it should have been, but if we can be threatened even in this place then we have to be vigilant about the defence of free speech. If free speech is eroded in any way in our universities, the institutions from which future Members of both Houses will come, then that does not augur well.

As we know at the moment, democracy has to be fought for. As we know, there is a great power, the second greatest power in the world right now, which is already flexing its muscles in a variety of ways—roads and belts, belts and roads. We have to be a bastion of democracy, but we cannot be a bastion of democracy without having universities and colleges that produce vigorous democrats.

Her Majesty the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow that delightful speech by my noble friend Lord Bellingham, with its many interesting anecdotes. I am a contemporary of the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and one of my earliest memories is being shushed by my parents to listen to the King on the radio. I think, because the Queen has reigned for so long, her beloved father—and she still regards him as such—has tended to be forgotten by many people. Most people in this country have lived only in the reign of our Queen, but he was an extraordinary unifying force during the last war. My parents almost venerated the King and there was tremendous sadness when he died, at a young age, as the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, said, with most people not being aware that he was very ill. I remember that, at my school, we were all issued with black armbands, which we wore until after the King’s funeral—itself an extraordinary solemn occasion.

All your Lordships will have seen the photographs—as far as I am concerned, a year before television—of the three Queens together: our Queen, the Queen Mother and Queen Mary. It was an extraordinary sight. We also all remember the photographs to which the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, referred of the Queen’s plane landing and her being greeted by her Prime Minister Winston Churchill, whom she regarded as a very great man indeed—and of course he was.

This morning, I went to the Ascension Day service at the abbey. As I sat there, inevitably I thought of this debate and the events of the Coronation—an extraordinary day, which I watched, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, on a very grainy television. This was in the drawing room of our choirmaster Mr Bradley, and every time the national anthem was played we stood up. The rain and Queen Sālote were perhaps two of the imperishable memories of the Coronation.

As a schoolboy then, I never thought that I would have the enormous privilege and honour of being present at the three jubilees we have celebrated in Parliament. The Silver Jubilee was in 1977. Ten years ago, we had the Diamond Jubilee, but the one that was most personal to me was the Golden Jubilee. I happened to be treasurer of the CPA at the time and, with the chairman, had the enormous privilege of escorting the Queen and Prince Philip around Lancaster House and presenting the various groups of Commonwealth parliamentarians who had gathered for that special conference.

It was remarkable that they had been to all those countries. I presented the delegation from Malta, which was where the Queen and Prince Philip had perhaps the happiest days of their life before she succeeded, because he was there as a naval officer and she was there as his wife. They knew so much more about Malta than the Maltese MPs who were there, and the same was true of many of the other countries. Some of the little remarks they made as we moved around, about the countries and the people, I would not dream of repeating on the Floor of the House, but they showed two things—a wonderful knowledge and a real affection. The affection of the Commonwealth parliamentarians was palpable, as they greeted their sovereign and Prince Philip. It was quite extraordinary.

She has been a thread of continuity and a rock of stability throughout our lives. I count our country extremely fortunate in having a monarchy. She is the 40th from William the Conqueror but, since the Roman legions left in the fifth century, we have always had a monarch, even before the creation of England and, much later, the United Kingdom. There can be no monarch who has ever given a more devoted and wonderful service to their people than our Queen. She has been the epitome of all that is best in our national life.

I think of the divisiveness of political heads of state: Trump in America, for instance, or the recent, rather bitter election in France, which resulted in the return of President Macron—I was pleased about that, by the way. We have someone who can unite the people by not being allied with any political party or faction and who can also give this extraordinary continuity, through many decades in the case of the Queen. There is no word that is more abused in the English language than “unique”—but we are living through a unique period at the moment. Clearly none of us will ever see this again, but probably nobody ever in the history of this country, certainly not for many decades or even centuries, will have the opportunity to honour someone who for seven decades—the biblical term of life—has been at the forefront of all that is best in the United Kingdom.

We have heard some marvellous anecdotes today. We had a wonderful account from the Master of the Horse, and we had a very moving speech from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, a few minutes ago, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, were the only ones I disagreed with—I hope she is never invited to open a House of Lords in Burnley, and we shall all do our best to make sure that that never comes about. But how wonderful that we in this House today, which is so special and in which we have a constant reminder of the Queen, are united. There is nothing that divides us today in our affection, loyalty and admiration. Long live the Queen!

Sue Gray Report

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I admire and sympathise with my noble friend the Leader of the House. I am very sorry this has been taken so late and that I am the sole voice from the Government Benches to be able to comment. To me, and I hope my noble friend would agree, this report teaches us all to admire and respect the quiet dignity and the impeccable integrity of Theresa May. We should look to her for a real example of how a Prime Minister should behave.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right, and I had the privilege to serve under Theresa May when she was Prime Minister.

Elections Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 28th March 2022 Lords Chamber

As a token of my seriousness, the original version of my amendment said that it should be enacted within 12 months. I thought that was pretty difficult for returning officers and local government to get the voting lists right, so I have made one change and it now says that it should be brought into being in 24 months. This is a serious proposition; I urge your Lordships to support it.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I generally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. He makes some extremely powerful speeches in this House and when he is talking about refugees, I am generally 100% behind him. But I do oppose this amendment, and I oppose it for one simple reason that I will put before your Lordships very briefly: we do not have the vote because we are permanent Members of Parliament. It is as simple as that. United States Senators are not permanent members of the Senate: they come up for re-election on a rotating basis every six years. We do not.

There is another argument to be had. I am personally—and your Lordships know this—in favour of a non-elected second Chamber. I am in favour of that for many reasons, including the gridlock that would inevitably emerge if there were two elected Chambers. But that is not what we are debating this afternoon. We are permanent Members, we are here, and it is for that reason and that reason only that we do not vote for the other House: because we have this permanent responsibility. Whatever the result of the next general election—in 2024, 2023 or whenever it happens—we will still come back here. That is the reason why it is illogical and unnecessary to argue that we should have a vote in general elections. It would make absolutely no difference to the result, because even if everybody in your Lordships’ House cast a vote around the country, you are talking about significantly fewer than 1,000 votes—I wish we were talking of no more than 600 but that, again, is another issue.

So, I hope we can move on quickly and stick with the Bill in this particular phase as it is. Like others, I send my warm good wishes for the speedy recovery of my noble friend Lord True, and I assure my noble friend Lord Howe that he has my total support on this issue.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I came into this Chamber absolutely not caring about the outcome of this—I was waiting for subsequent groups. But actually, having heard both speeches, I totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. In spite of all the respect and affection I have for the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, I cannot see that what he said makes any difference at all. So what if we are permanent? We come and go, we do not always survive very long here, we can retire or die, so I do not see the relevance of what he is saying. And, of course, he pointed out that if we all voted it would not make any difference. We all have our views and we all vote in other ways in other elections, so I salute the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for his thorough examination of this problem and I completely support him. I had never given it a thought before—I had not minded about not voting, but now I do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Bishops are here for only a brief period. Some of them are here for five, six or seven years. One came in a few months ago and will be gone by the end of this year. They are not permanent legislators.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

None the less, while they are Members of this House, it seems rather odd that they are allowed to vote in parliamentary elections. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, leads me on to the second point, which is that we are able these days to take retirement from the House of Lords, and many people have done that. I am sorry that I do not know the answer to this, but is it possible for those who are no longer active Members, and are not able to speak or vote in the House, to vote in parliamentary elections? If not, that is surely an anomaly that needs correcting. The Government should look at this issue again, in the light not only of the speech by my noble friend Lord Dubs but of the anomalies that exist and seem odd in the current situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

When Parliament is prorogued for a general election, MPs cease to be Members of Parliament. They therefore become ordinary voters, if I can put it that way.

In our democracy, everyone should have a voice, but the Government’s view is that Peers who are Members of this House have that by virtue of their participation in this Chamber. That principle has been upheld for more than 300 years, including by the courts. It has not altered over successive Governments: in fact, in the debate on his Private Member’s Bill nearly three years ago, my noble friend Lord Young reminded the House that, as recently as 1999, Section 3 of the House of Lords Act explicitly enfranchised hereditary Peers who are not Members of this House and disfranchised Peers who are.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, asked whether Peers who have retired from this House have the right to vote. My understanding is that they do, because they ceased to be parliamentary Peers at that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, asked about the cost of taking parliamentary Peers off the register. I doubt that that cost has been computed by anybody—of course, there must be a cost—but it is a very considerable privilege that we as Peers have, and I for one would argue that it is not unreasonable for that privilege to carry a public cost.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Of course, we are on the register and can vote in every other election, including local government elections, referenda—the lot.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I think the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, was that a distinction must be made on the register between different types of election, and that that carries a cost; he can correct me if I am wrong in assuming that.

This House is a respected voice that adds depth and, I hope, wisdom to our legislative process. It allows us, as its Members, full participation in the life of the nation. The Government therefore have considerable reservations about this proposed new clause, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I never thought that so many different sorts of opinions would come out of the woodwork. It has been absolutely fascinating. The arguments have been somewhat different from the last two or three times we debated this issue. I just want to comment on them briefly.

As regards the voting list—this is a technical point—my understand is that there is no obvious way in which when we register we can declare that we are Members of this House. Somehow, in some local authorities, the polling clerks are aware of it but, in others, they are not. I am always mystified by that; it is not clear. I have known of people who have not been debarred from voting and could have gone to vote—they did not do so but they could have—simply because it was not obvious to the polling clerks that they were Members of this House.

On my noble friend Lady Quin’s comment about Members of Parliament, again, it is purely a technicality that they cease to be Members of Parliament during the period of an election campaign. Nobody knows about it except for a few nerds like us—sorry, nerds like me. It just means that they are technically not MPs. However, for all practical purposes, of course they are; they still get representations made to them, constituency casework and so on. Even during the election campaign, they cannot just say, “No, I’m not prepared to do it.”

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

The noble Lord cannot get away with that. When Parliament is dissolved, as distinct from being prorogued, the House of Commons does not exist and everyone must seek election or re-election to it. As the noble Lord knows only too well, there are occasions when Members of Parliament lose their seats—so of course it is right that they should have a vote for somebody in Parliament when there is no House of Commons. He is really not giving the argument the justice it deserves.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has just informed me that MPs are paid during Prorogation. So even when they vote in a general election, they are in fact still being paid as MPs.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Lords Hansard _ Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 170 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to which I have added my name.

As the noble Lord made clear, there is no realistic prospect of a Committee day for my Assisted Dying Bill. This makes the point that the current procedures limiting Private Members’ Bills to Fridays do not enable important legislation such as the Assisted Dying Bill to reach the statute book.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, introduced his amendment brilliantly. It leaves me only to reiterate that we are not discussing the pros and cons of assisted dying this evening. The House is expected to rise at 1.30 tomorrow morning. I hope for the sake of everybody in this House that noble Lords on both sides of the assisted dying debate will resist the temptation to get into such a debate—that is not as what this amendment is about. We are debating whether it is acceptable that there is no procedure at present to enable the Westminster Parliament to test the willingness of both houses to pass such a significant and popular piece of legislation. We know that not only Scotland, which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned, but Jersey and even the Isle of Man have procedures to enable them to pass an assisted dying law, and all those three are likely to pass such legislation within the next one to three years.

We therefore ask noble Lords: do we really think it is satisfactory that the Westminster Parliament is hamstrung without a procedure for Parliament properly to debate a Bill to legalise assisted dying for terminally ill people who are mentally competent and who are suffering unbearably? For Westminster to be upstaged on such an important and popular human rights issue by our much smaller neighbours is surely unconscionable. Amendment 170 from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, deserves our support.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose this amendment. Much as I admire my noble friend Lord Forsyth and fully understand the reasons why he has brought this before your Lordships’ House, it is not a good precedent to bind the Government in one Bill to introduce another a year or so hence. We should think very carefully about the constitutional issues.

We should remember Silverman and we should remember Steel: those Bills began in the other place—an elected House. An initiative of this sort should come from the elected House and not be imposed upon it by an unelected House. I do not think anybody would question my devotion to this House. I believe passionately in it. I believe passionately in an appointed House, as we are. I admire enormously the variety of expertise and experience that is in your Lordships’ House. However, we are not the elected House. I agree that it would be entirely reasonable in the elected House for time to be sought from government. The last time they debated this there was a fairly emphatic result, and it was not in favour of having an assisted dying Bill.

Much as we can admire the total sincerity of those who are committed to the principle of assisted suicide—I happen not to be of their number—it is very dangerous for us to begin in this House changing constitutional precedent by obliging government to introduce a Bill. Therefore, I urge your Lordships not to support this amendment.

Ukraine

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 24th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, of course the people of Ukraine are uppermost in our minds and thoughts, but should we not also remember that people have demonstrated on the streets of Russian towns and cities today? Can we do everything possible to utilise to the full the soft power of the BBC World Service to make sure that people in Russia know what is being perpetrated in their name? While we do that, should we not also give the boot to RT, which is a Russian propaganda tool in our own country? Finally, would it not be unthinkable if we did not make sure that the football tournament scheduled for St Petersburg takes place somewhere else?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I thank my noble friend, particularly for the opportunity once again to state that we have no quarrel with the Russian people; our quarrel is with the Russian leadership and President Putin’s regime. I thank my noble friend for giving me the opportunity to say that on behalf of the House.

In relation to Russia Today, my noble friend will know that the Culture Secretary has written to Ofcom to express her concerns. It needs to keep the situation under careful review. It does have powers to step in when broadcasting rules have been breached. It has, as my noble friend will know, previously sanctioned RT for serious failures to comply with broadcasting rules on impartiality. As we in this country obviously benefit, thankfully, from a free and open media, it is right that all regulatory decisions by Ofcom be made independent of government.

In relation to the football tournament, I think the Prime Minister has been very clear in his view that it should not take place in Russia.

Ukraine Update

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I am afraid, again, I cannot agree with the noble Lord. Russia has been falsely accusing NATO of provocation and nothing could be further from the truth. NATO has always been a defensive alliance and poses no threat to Russia. As I have also said, NATO allies remain committed to a dual track approach: strong deterrence and defence combined with meaningful dialogue. But Russia has to stop its aggression towards Ukraine.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, could I suggest to my noble friend that we—global Britain—convene an international conference here in London with all our European friends and allies, with whom we must get closer and closer, because if we do not have a united front we have a defeated front? When we come to debate this issue in the House, could it please be on the Floor of the House and not, as my noble friend suggested, in Grand Committee?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I have set out what we will be able to do in terms of a debate, and we are delighted to be able to give the House the opportunity to discuss such an important issue. Of course we are consistently meeting our European allies both at home and abroad. I mentioned all the travel, and I am sure noble Lords will have seen the Defence Secretary and Foreign Secretary travelling around talking to allies. I am sure they will be convening meetings across Europe, and indeed, more widely globally, in which these important issues can be discussed, and we can continue our co-ordinated approach.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 4th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as an elected member of the BMA ethics committee, which looked at these issues and was involved in producing the statement quoted earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro. I strongly support these amendments and cannot see any reason for anyone not to. They set a basic moral standard. As the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Alton and Lord Ribeiro, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, have laid out, the arguments they have given us are in many ways only the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more than could be said.

Our Human Tissue Authority’s guiding principles have a code of practice which has consent, dignity, quality, honesty, and openness as key pillars. These principles should reflect not only how human tissue is sourced from within our own nation but how we treat human tissue and organs from overseas. There is overwhelming evidence now that in China, Falun Gong practitioners and Uighurs, Tibetans and house Christians are being killed on demand for their organs. There is no consent, no dignity and no transparency. Only yesterday I received a letter from a woman whose mother had been a Falun Gong practitioner, and who has been in prison and effectively disappeared. She has no idea where her mother is; she has not heard from her. That is happening all over this population.

I will not repeat the statement that has already been read out, but I just hope that the Government can see that we have a moral obligation to accept these amendments. I hope that they will do so.

Amendment 297H, in my name, is supported by the Royal College of Pathologists. Post-mortem examinations here are subject to careful legislative control and we have the Coroners (Investigations) Regulations 2013, which oversee post-mortems. When a post-mortem happens, it happens without the consent of the next of kin, of course, because there are questions around the cause of death. The coroners’ statistics for England and Wales in 2020 show that 79,400 post-mortem examinations were ordered by coroners. A fifth included histology and a quarter included toxicology samples being taken.

When the coroner’s work is complete, the tissue samples and any fluids taken—the tissue being in the form of blocks and slides—must be destroyed unless specific consent has been provided by someone in a qualifying relationship. However, consent is logistically very difficult to obtain in practice. The McCracken review of the Human Tissue Act in 2013 recommended that:

“Consideration should be given (inter alia) to reducing the scope so that microscope slide and tissue block samples and bodily products such as saliva, urine, and faeces are excluded”.


The Government accepted this recommendation, but the issue has not subsequently progressed.

There are some real difficulties with post-mortems. A post-mortem is effectively a snapshot of the deceased at the point of death. It is only by going back into the clinical records that the pathologist gets some picture of what happened pre-mortem, and many of the other factors. But at the end of the day, it is often subjective in terms of determining the likely cause of death for the report that is then signed off. In Scotland, tissue blocks and slides are deemed to be part of the clinical record and therefore do not have to be destroyed after the procurator fiscal’s investigations are complete. However, no whole organs can be retained in Scotland without explicit consent. In the light of Alder Hey, it is important to stress that point.

Changing to a system that reflects Scottish law could be beneficial because it would provide information about the cause of death if new circumstances came to light months or years after an investigation was complete. Indeed, we have recently had the case of the Farquhar family, where the evidence of long-term poisoning probably came to light many years after the person had died. Crucially, forensic deaths can be masked by natural disease processes and storage of tissues and fluids as part of the medical record would help clarify these at a later date when new information came to light. In a way, that is essential for completion of justice.

In addition, genomics research is rapidly developing, so the family may want to access the tissue later on as disease processes become more clarified. Metabolic storage disorders such as Fabry or Gaucher disease have been examples of this.

The tissue blocks from post-mortems are usually larger than the small pieces of tissue in a biopsy from a living person. That is particularly relevant where you want a piece of the heart or the brain, because a large biopsy from a living person would be impossible. There is also a third use of these tissue blocks and slides, which is as teaching material for autopsy pathologists. There is now a real shortage of teaching material, not only for pathologists who are in training but for ongoing audit of pathology processes.

So this amendment would bring the Human Tissue Act in line with the position in the Human Tissue (Scotland) Act 2006, where tissue samples as blocks and slides, but not—I stress not—organs, automatically become part of the person’s medical record after a post mortem. Explicit consent to keep them does not have to be sought from a grieving family, but it would allow justice in the long term to be pursued if necessary, and it would allow better development of autopsy pathologists.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing the first minute—but it was only the first minute—of the splendid speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I am delighted to add my support to his initiative, most splendidly supported by my noble friend Lord Ribeiro. We entered this House on the very same day and it was very good to hear what he had to say. Of course, the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, all have an impeccable record on these matters.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I hope that my noble friend will forgive me but, as he was not here at the beginning of the debate, strictly speaking it is not permitted for him to speak. If he could make his remarks brief, I am sure that would be appropriate; I do not want to stop him mid-flow.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Well, I certainly was going to make my remarks brief, and I am sorry that I was detained for one minute. I just want to give my wholehearted support to these amendments. There is no more despicable trade than the trade in human organs and no more despicable practices than those that are going on in China at the moment, simultaneously with the opening of the shameful Games. I very much hope that my noble friend, who so politely interrupted me, will be able to give us a very supportive statement when he comes to wind up this debate.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I also stand to support Amendments 265 and 282. I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Ribeiro and Lord Alton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Finlay.

I declare an interest as, quite a number of years ago now, I was one of those who signed up to say that, at the moment of death, all my organs will be left to the National Health Service for any scientific work that may be required. I carry a card, but it says that my organs should be kept in this country and not exported anywhere else, because I have no trust that they would not be used for purposes for which they were not intended.

When I was doing philosophy in Cambridge, Professor Williams posed a question. He said “Surprising things happen—that they are no longer surprising. Comment.” Noble Lords who have done philosophy will know how complicated that question is.

In Uganda, Idi Amin was known for the people that he feared most. He would cut off their heads, put them in the fridge, and put their organs in another fridge. People did not believe this, and he was overthrown. His treating of the human body like something you simply dispose of was horrific. No wonder a lot of people died under that terrible Government of his when he was in power. What we are being asked is: should the standards in this country also be somehow given over to other countries so that they can learn? But we too have got to be very careful that our standards are as high as the tissue Act says.

We live in a world that is so perilous at times, and where some people may disappear and you never see them. In Uganda, quite a number of leading people disappeared and, up to today, we do not know where they went. The thing is, they would be put in drums of acid and their bodies would be dissolved. Surprising things happen—that they are no longer surprising. May we be so vigilant. These two amendments do the job, so I hope that the Minister when he responds will have heard the urgency in the speeches, but, most of all, in the amendments themselves.

Sue Gray Report

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

As I answered in response to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, who asked a similar question, we are carefully considering the reports by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, the report by Nigel Boardman and other reports that have been published. I also said that, in correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, the Prime Minister will be discussing further how the independent adviser’s office can be better supported and ensuring that it has access to appropriate information. The Prime Minister has asked the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, to work with officials to provide this advice, and the Government have pledged to conclude this by March.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we should all be grateful to my noble friend for delivering this very shameful Statement with such dignity. We must also recognise that the leadership of any campaign must be from the elected House. However, would it not be reasonable to say that what this Statement from the Prime Minister amounts to is, very simply, mea culpa?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Certainly, the Prime Minister makes clear in his Statement, and says explicitly, that he is sorry for things that have been got wrong and for the way that things have bene handled and he understands people’s anger. That is why he has accepted in full the initial findings of this Gray report and wants to get on straight away with implementing changes to address them.