Referendums

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I recognise the noble Lord’s consistent interest in this topic. However, Parliament would need to go down that kind of road with a good deal of care. This country has no history of applying thresholds to the making of laws, for example, or the electing of our representatives. Both those things require a simple majority. To start applying special thresholds for referendums would require special and clear justification.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, on 24 April, I will be producing a Bill for the House to discuss the very issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley? Will my noble friend commit to approaching that debate with an open mind, bearing in mind that referendums are incompatible with representative parliamentary democracy?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I look to debating my noble friend’s Bill when it comes before us for Second Reading. I think it would be premature for me to set out the Government’s position on the Bill today. We will do so, as we do with all Private Members’ Bills, at the Second Reading, but I can assure my noble friend that we shall approach it with an open mind.

Global Britain

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think he is alluding to the issue of consent. As I have said, we have set out our position: we do not want alignment and will discuss and negotiate on that basis. We believe that we can come to an agreement with the EU that works in the interests of the entire United Kingdom family.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as many of the problems of the last three years were caused by a less than constructive relationship between Government and Parliament, will my noble friend discuss with the Prime Minister the establishment of a Joint Committee of both Houses on global Britain?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for his comment. Things can be considered, but we have an excellent Select Committee system, with excellent EU committees, the Constitution Committee and others which I think all noble Lords will agree did a fantastic job on scrutinising and holding the Government to account during the last phase of our discussions with the EU. I have no doubt that they will continue to do so going forward. We will listen to their advice and reports very carefully.

Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission: Civil Society

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, if the aim of establishing a commission is to restore trust in our institutions and democracy, as is the case here, it is axiomatic that the commission will need to command public confidence through both its membership and the way it operates. The Government are wholly mindful of that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the way he has answered these questions. Can he reflect on the fact that we recently elected a citizens’ assembly? It is called the House of Commons.

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend makes an extremely pertinent point.

Early Parliamentary General Election Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I think we should all say “Amen” to that, in our hearts as well as with our lips, as we do every day.

I strongly agree with those who have already said that the Bill, having been passed in another place by a huge majority, should go very quickly through this place with no attempt to amend it. We are the unelected House and the elected House has expressed itself emphatically in favour; we should go along with that.

Having said that, I agree most strongly with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, in what he said about the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. We had quinquennial Parliaments before the Act came about, but we were able to shorten them in a number of circumstances, such as a defeat on the Queen’s Speech or the passing of a Motion of no confidence. We should go back to that condition. I hope that, whoever are in government after 12 December, they will make that an early priority and put it in the next Queen’s Speech. It would be serving Parliament to do so.

Like my noble friend the Leader of the House, I wish we were not here at the moment. I was one who supported the Theresa May deal from the word go, and I would have supported the Boris Johnson deal, even though, in some respects, I do not think it quite as good. I wish that, after the Second Reading vote and the majority of 30 last week, we could have allocated more time. We could have then gone to the country after Brexit had been done—some time towards the end of November, I suspect—and had an early spring election. Things would have been much smoother. On a party point, I say to colleagues on this side of the House that we would have also put our party in a much stronger position had we done so. But we have not, and we have this Bill.

There is one thing I really hope we will do, and it builds on the remarks made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham. Our country has been torn apart; families and communities have been divided. We have to seek to come together and it would be no bad thing if the Conservative Party took a lead in this. Some of the servants of our party, who have collectively given decades of service, have had the Whip restored—they should all have had the Whip restored. I felt very sorry this morning when I learned that Amber Rudd, who announced that she would not seek re-election, had requested the Whip and had her request turned down. That is not acting in the spirit of generosity or magnanimity and I urge my noble and right honourable friends in the Government to think again. These are people who have given long and distinguished service. We owe them a great deal.

I fought my first election in 1964 in the neighbouring constituency to the Father of the House, Kenneth Clarke. He has rendered long, loyal, conspicuous service and that should be properly recognised. It is deeply unfortunate that it has not yet been so recognised. I very much hope that it will be.

I end with another plea to the Government. The last time that we had a general election, in 2017, we had the longest, most turgid manifesto in our party’s history. I think it was worse than the longest suicide note in history, which the party on the other side produced. Can we please all have, as a collective Christmas present, a short, emphatic manifesto, preferably on two sides of A4, but certainly not running to more than a couple of thousand words? That would also help the healing process. May it now begin.

Business of the House

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the House and on her behalf, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I raise a small but important point about the allocation of time for Thursday debates. We have two debates today: one introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on an important local government matter, and one on a very important international crisis in Hong Kong. The allocation of time for speakers in the first debate is 15 minutes, and in the second debate—in which two former Governors of Hong Kong are speaking—only five minutes. I believe it would be appropriate for the allocation and division of time in Thursday debates to be looked at.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. He is right to observe that Back-Bench speeches will be limited to 15 minutes in the first debate and five in the last. Because these are balloted and not party debates, we can move only 30 minutes from one to the other. In the normal course, we would have allocated equal time to both. We have given an extra half-hour to the final debate, so we have maximised the speaking time in that debate as best we can. I am sure my noble friend’s remarks will not be lost in the usual channels.

Hong Kong Protests

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I share the noble Baroness’s concerns on this issue. We are in dialogue with many of our friends and partners around the world. We have made our concerns about human rights clear to the Chinese Government. Earlier this week, my noble friend Lord Ahmad co-hosted an event in the margins of the UN General Assembly on the situation in Xinjiang, which remains an issue of serious concern.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend realise that those of us who saw the chilling programme on Tiananmen Square last night are particularly concerned by today’s reports? Because we have a legitimate interest, can the Foreign Secretary be asked to see the Chinese ambassador here in London and suggest that there should a British judicial presence on any committee that is established? There is a precedent for that in what has followed the one country, two systems solution, and it would give great confidence around the world if that were the case.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I think it is important that we do not get ahead of ourselves here in a way that might make the situation worse. We are currently reliant on media reporting. As I have said, the situation is fluid. We do not yet know the precise circumstances of the incident that has been reported. It is difficult to confirm the reports in an independent way. We are monitoring the situation closely. I take note of my noble friend’s constructive suggestion, but I think it is too early to go down that path.

Update to Parliament

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I have every sympathy with my noble friend, but that was the most disgraceful Prime Ministerial Statement I have heard in my 50-odd years in this Parliament. What is he trying to do? Set up an election that is the people versus Parliament—that is what he is trying to do. If that is what he does, he will cause enormous and lasting damage to both Houses and to the constitution of the finest country in the world. The Prime Minister has made me ashamed, more than I have felt ashamed for a long time—and I have felt ashamed a lot over the past three years. The Prime Minister’s disgraceful Statement is something that appals us all. Will my noble friend, for whom I have personal regard and deepest sympathy, please convey to him just how angry he has made many of us?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for his comments; he made his point forcefully and I am sorry about the way he feels. I assure him that we are working hard and flat out to get a deal. That is what we want to do, that is what we are focusing on, and the Prime Minister has put a lot of effort and energy into doing so. Talks are taking place between officials in Brussels today. At UNGA only a couple of days ago, he had a number of conversations with, for instance, Chancellor Merkel, President Macron, Prime Minister Rutte, the Taoiseach and EU Council President Tusk. We are focused on getting a deal so that we can leave the EU in the manner that we all wish.

Business of the House

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I inform the House that if Amendment 1 is agreed I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

Motion

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[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I should inform the House that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with what my noble friend said about the precipitate action of the Liberal Chief Whip at the beginning of the previous debate, which never happened. I say very gently to my noble friend that speaking for 20 minutes or more does not encourage.

I speak here for one main reason. Of course, I am one of those who voted remain, but I have accepted, from the moment of the referendum, that we would come out of the European Union. All that I have been concerned about is how we come out and the terms on which we do so. I deeply resent the fact that certain colleagues—not all, by any means—suggest that we want to go back in. I wish we could, but we cannot. There has been a democratic decision. Only a general election or another referendum—and I do not favour another referendum; I never have—can alter that.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I agree with much of what my noble friend has said about procedure. I think it would be a good thing for the Front Benches to agree and for the Bill being considered by the House of Commons to make its passage, and for the Opposition leader to agree—we hear different things at different time—to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the voters on a timetable, preferably on my birthday: 16 October. I think we would win a great victory and it would be a great celebration as I reach the age of 65. There is an opportunity here, and I very much welcome the fact that he is asking the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the guillotine Motion, which has nothing to do with the Bill that is coming here and nothing to do with whether the House of Commons decides to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the country.

[Lord Cormack]

I am very glad to have the support of my noble friend and I look forward to being invited to his 65th birthday, when he will be 15 years my junior. His support is very welcome, because we do not always agree on everything.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I share the views of my young noble friend Lord Forsyth about what my noble friend said. His interesting speech covered a number of areas but did not cover one of the more outrageous elements, which is the use of the closure Motion. This, as noble Lords are aware, is designed to be used only in very rare circumstances, which is why the Lord Speaker or the Deputy Speaker always reminds the House that it is a very unusual procedure. It was used several times earlier this year and it seems to be being used as a routine tactic this evening, in a way it was never intended to be. My noble friend Lord True is quite right: it is the equivalent of saying “Shut up”, which is not the way we conduct our business. I would be interested to hear my noble friend’s views on how the way we conduct our business in this House is being harmed by the use of that procedure.

[Lord Cormack]

As my noble friend asked me to respond, let me say that any procedural device should be used sparingly. I have moved a closure myself, so I cannot pretend that I wholly disapprove of it, but I believe that filibustering does not do the House or the individuals indulging in it any good at all. Of course, it should be used, but the main purpose of my speech was to try to lower the temperature and bring a little sense to both sides of the House, so that we can conclude our proceedings today in a seemly manner and deal with the legislation that is likely to arrive, in an equally seemly and sensible manner.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I strongly endorse what the noble Lord has said. It seems to me that we have to be realistic. I speak as a Lord spiritual with an obligation to engage in what was called “high politics” earlier, as a Member of this House, noting that the Lords spiritual cannot be whipped and that we are not a party. It seems to me that we have to be realistic and say that this prorogation has been disingenuously propagated as being just a little extension to recess, when we know that it is of a completely different order. We have prorogation on one side and these procedural objections about closure and guillotine over here. The reality is that we are going to carry on with the sort of spectacle we have had thus far unless the Front Benches come to some agreement and conclusion. It would be grown-up to do that. I do not suspect, from what I am hearing, that anyone in this Chamber wants to spend day and night going through these Motions to achieve very little other than irritation, so I add my endorsement to what the noble Lord has said and encourage the Front Benches to do as he requested.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The House of Commons—I beg noble Lords’ pardon. We think that a suitable time to meet may be when the House of Commons is clear on the decisions that it will make tonight. The House does not need to adjourn during pleasure for that to happen.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, there does not seem a lot of point, particularly in view of the extremely helpful and constructive remarks from my noble friend Lord True, in continuing on this particular path. Surely other business on the Order Paper could be dealt with. I personally think that an adjournment during pleasure is by far the most sensible solution.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, may I seek clarification from what was at least a partially constructive description of what might develop? I agree with everyone else that the noble Lords, Lord True, Lord Cormack and Lord Strathclyde, as well as other noble Lords, have displayed the spirit of the House. The Chief Whip referred to pending events in the House of Commons tonight. I can see that it is absolutely essential that we know what is happening with the Bill that will come here, but was he including in his embrace—in that precondition—what might happen as regards, say, a general election? If so, what is that to do with the conduct of this House or that Bill?

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for those comments. There is very little that is normal at the moment. I do not want to put a guillotine Motion before this House; I was trying to help the House. It is not normal to have so many amendments; it is not normal to have such a Prorogation. We are trying to make the best of a difficult situation and see our way through it.

[Lord Cormack]

May I express the hope, having introduced this earlier, that my noble friend will indeed accept that these are exceptional times? Prorogation has never been like this for 90 years—and not even then. We want an orderly end that allows this House to preserve its image and reputation and not to shred them by talking through until one minute past 10 on Friday.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I suggest that we continue with the Bill in the normal way at this stage and, following the discussions that we have, I will be happy to report back to the House on how those discussions have proceeded.

Amendment to the Motion (2B)

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[Lord Framlingham]

The noble Baroness can put her spin on it. I retain my views—

[Lord Cormack]

Does my noble friend really think he is assisting to enhance the reputation of this House by trashing the reputation of someone who has given decades of service to our country and our party?

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I think it is time for a little honesty. I have watched over the last three years—day in, day out—people pretending to do one thing and doing another, while the 17.4 million people who voted to leave Europe have been very badly served. I am not prepared to put up with it any longer.

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[Lord True]

The noble Lord can put his interpretation on it as he wishes; the Division lists will demonstrate who is closer to the truth. There will be a balance of opinion on the Cross Benches. I find it entirely extraordinary that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, having forced through legislation in the House of Commons for perfectly good reasons of their own, now wish, before the Bill had even been presented—it has now been presented, we saw it arrive—to force a guillotine on this House. It is, again, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, with some noble Lords in other parties; the bulk of the votes are there. Our proceedings are being broadcast, if anybody is watching. Those sitting opposite are on the Labour Benches; next to them are the Lib Dem Benches.

[Lord Cormack]

Can my noble friend not accept that there are a considerable number of his colleagues in this House who have given long and devoted service to the Conservative Party and who believe that the Conservative Government are on the wrong track?

[Lord True]

I think I have grasped that point on one or two occasions before from my noble friend. I do not deny that other people share that view, but the reality is that a power play is going on here, with the use of an instrument to control Parliament, to control this House, which has never been seen in this House before—the guillotine.

I am honoured to be a member of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, which is one of the most important committees of the House—thank goodness that your Lordships’ House has such a committee. That committee is currently considering some of the issues that arise from fixed-term parliament legislation, and I hope that when its report is issued, it will be helpful to all of us in this House. But today, we are seeing constitutional issues on the make in front of us. We have an unprecedented, far-reaching Motion proposed which would, if it became part of the practice of this House, as it has become part of the practice of the other House, change the nature of parliamentary government in this country. That is absolutely the case.

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[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord True has asked me to deal with this amendment and I am pleased to do so. It basically relates to the role of the guillotine in our proceedings and the advisability if we had time, which I fear we do not, of referring it to the Procedure Committee.

It is sometimes forgotten that historically the Opposition’s main weapon against the Government or bad legislation has always been time—time to look at things in detail, but also simply time. When I first became a Member of the House of Commons there was no such thing as a guillotine. The subject before you was treated with respect. Sometimes things took a long time and sometimes they did not, but you were very conscious that, particularly on complex, difficult problems, you had enough time. You would not do the wrong thing because you did not have enough time. That was absolutely crucial.

Then, of course, along one day came the guillotine. It was very rare in those days, but then it became the programme Motion, so it went from being used very rarely to being used occasionally and then becoming, as it is now, entirely routine. The trouble is that, when a Bill in the other place is sent to Committee, the programme Motion decides how much time will be spent on different aspects of the Bill. That is, at very best, a good guess. It is frequently wrong, with the result that too much time—far too much time sometimes—is spent on some sections of the Bill and other sections do not get dealt with at all.

Sometimes, given the increased volume of legislation coming from the other place to your Lordships’ House, this has created great problems. Lots of undigested legislation comes down to us almost like a sausage factory and we have to deal with it and make sure that it is right. To do that we have to have the time that it no longer has. It will be absolutely crackers if we use guillotines as it uses guillotines and give up our right to do the job that it should have done. The public whom we serve will not be well served by that. If we pursue this course, lots of Bills will not be dealt with as efficiently as they are now. To introduce the guillotine to your Lordships’ House just for one specific thing is outrageous, and the thin end of the wedge. Once it is done, once the Rubicon has been crossed, it is much easier to do it again. We should think very carefully before setting this terrible precedent. It smacks of a heavy-handed, authoritarian approach to matters, which, if it were ever translated into government, would have frightening consequences for the people of this country.

[Lord Cormack]

Has it not just had frightening consequences?

[Lord Framlingham]

I do not know how to respond to that. I know my noble friend’s position on this matter. He has stated it time and again. He is not going to change, so I do not think it is worth engaging with him in this way—

G7

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That was in relation to the problems that the Government are having in getting the withdrawal agreement through the House of Commons and was in that context. It has been very clear that we will not be able to get the agreement through with the backstop. That has been one of the major issues that Members across the House of Commons have raised. That is why we are focusing on that issue with the Irish and our EU partners in order to ensure that we can remove it so that we can get the deal that we want and get agreement at the October Council.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I remind my noble friend Lord Howell that 3 September was also the anniversary of the Battle of Worcester and of Cromwell’s death. It was a date that kept recurring right through his career.

I am extremely perplexed about the backstop. My noble friend, valiantly and rightly assisted by my noble friend Lord Callanan and many on these Benches, supported the deal that was agreed by Prime Minister May. Her Cabinet did so, and at the last time of asking the present Prime Minister did so. Why are we further splitting and dividing people by threatening with expulsion from our party those who steadfastly supported the previous Government and who have given collectively decades of service to our party and to our country? If we really are going to come together, as I would wish, with those who supported the last deal and support another one, which I want to be able to do, for goodness’ sake, can we not have some charity?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is right. Many of us valiantly attempted to persuade people that we should pass the deal, but, unfortunately, the House of Commons did not. It was rejected three times, and it was quite clear that we were not going to be able to get the deal through, which is why the Prime Minister is now focusing on the particular element which seemed to be the biggest area of concern for those in the House of Commons. We need to give him the freedom to do that. We need to make sure that we do not undermine his negotiating hand. He is confident that, from the conversations he has had with EU leaders and that his negotiating team has had, we can get a deal. That is what we are focused on. I have never stood here and said that I want anything other than a deal, and I believe that the Prime Minister is committed to trying to achieve that.

Prorogation Recall

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Cormack]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the powers available to recall Parliament during a prorogation in the event of a national or international crisis.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, once Parliament has been prorogued it cannot be recalled. However, the sovereign, acting on the advice of Ministers, may issue a new proclamation setting an earlier date for the beginning of the new Session.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer and welcome the tone of his replies to the previous Question. I also add my tribute to my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. Speaking from these Back Benches, I can say that he was universally liked and admired; his calm unflappability set an example to us all. I share my noble friend Lord Howe’s desire to lower the temperature and to obviate the need for rushed legislation. But if each House of Parliament were to pass a resolution requesting a rearrangement of the Prorogation and its dates, would not the Government be well advised to take that advice?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I repeat my tribute to my noble friend Lord Young, alongside my noble friend Lord Cormack. We shall miss him on the Front Bench. Clearly, if both Houses of Parliament were to take a view on any particular matter and address that proposal to the Prime Minister, it would be quite wrong for the Government to ignore such a request. I am sure that any such decision, if reached, would receive close attention from my right honourable friend.