Syria: Refugees

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is right to highlight these issues. We take this very seriously and approach it in the way that we think is the best way of approaching it; that is, that humanitarian aid in the region is the best way of doing it. We accept that for very vulnerable people in special circumstances we can provide help in this country, but we think that providing £700 million to the region is the most effective way of providing our humanitarian aid, which will help people in that area. It provides basic things such as water and food, which can help the largest numbers of people, and it complements the UN’s programme because we take the people into this country that it suggests to us and we provide money in the area to deal with the people directly on the ground.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is not this crisis continuing to destabilise the whole region? Is not the only long-term answer a proper political solution in Syria? Does that not mean that we have to talk sensibly and intelligently with the Assad regime, much as we might like to hold our noses while doing so? What has got to be smashed is the power of ISIS, and that cannot be done unless there has been an intelligent dialogue with the present Syrian regime.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with my noble friend that ending the war and defeating extremism will be the way to end the humanitarian crisis in the long term. That requires military pressure and a political settlement. However, we feel that that requires replacing the Assad regime with a Government who can represent all Syrians, in order to prevent further conflict. We are looking carefully at the UN envoy’s plan for local ceasefires to freeze the conflict. We support his work and we think that plan, together with direct help from aid on the ground, is the best way of achieving this.

Iraq

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hurd, in a very perceptive speech, contrasted today’s debate with the one that we had in August last year, when both he and I, and almost every other Member of your Lordships’ House, voiced grave concern at the prospect of going into Syria without a clearly defined objective or outcome. Today is very different. It is a sobering thought, incidentally, that had we decided differently last year, we might have boosted these wretched ISIL people into a position of even greater power in Syria.

We are now setting our hands to an extraordinary task. In the words of that great prayer by Sir Walter Raleigh, we have to see this thing “until it be throughly finished”. This is not a case of sending just a few sorties; we are in for the long haul. Although I risk the rebuke of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, we will need boots on the ground, be they Arab boots or other military boots—

[Lord Ramsbotham]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Cormack]

No, I cannot give way in this short debate. We will need boots on the ground—military boots and, as the noble Lord rightly pointed out, other boots.

Briefly, if we are to win the hearts and minds of people in the Middle East, those who are suffering desperate privation and those who will be bereaved or maimed as a result of air strikes—that is bound to happen—we must have great emphasis on humanitarian aid. I point up a little contrast. Yesterday, I stood on the East Green of Lincoln Cathedral, where there was a dedication of a plot that, next year, is to bring forth a wonderful garden of bulbs to commemorate Operation Manna. At the end of the Second World War, the people of Holland were in desperate plight. They were starving. Queen Wilhelmina said, “We shall merely be liberating corpses if something is not done”. Although we had to negotiate with the Germans—the war was still on—so that the low-flying aircraft were not shot down, the relief supplies were delivered and the people survived. Yesterday, in a very moving ceremony, we had the Netherlands ambassador paying tribute to the Germans in the presence of their military attaché, saying, “Even though then we were at war, those with whom we had nothing in common and who had inflicted terrible disaster upon us, at that particular point, held back”.

I make that comment and give that illustration merely to point up a moral and to adorn a tale. I hold no brief for the Assad regime—I do not think that there can be any Member of your Lordships’ House who does —but, without repeating the Arab proverb cited by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, all I would say is that we must have unrestrained conflict against these barbarians if we are to bring them to heel and we must ensure that, as the wasteland is liberated, we help those who seek to survive on it as much as we conceivably can.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The current calls for Russia to de-escalate and the sanctions that we are putting in place are in response to Russian activity in Ukraine, which predates last week’s incident. It would be wrong of the noble Lord to suggest that all our efforts being made now are only on the back of the terrible crime committed on Thursday. What happened on Thursday has focused minds, but it has not led to the start of our demands for Russia to take all the necessary steps to withdraw from its aggression in Ukraine.

As for what President Putin said in response to my right honourable friend, I do not have details of that. I can say to the noble Lord that clearly the conversation that the Prime Minister had with President Putin has had some influence. Thankfully and finally, we are starting to see some co-operation from the separatists in Ukraine to help ensure that the bodies there are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve, that the right authorities are properly able to do their job, and that we can get to the bottom of just what happened.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, building upon the wise words of my noble friend a moment ago and on the extremely sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord West, does my noble friend accept that if we are not sensible we shall drift into another cold war from which no one will benefit? Could we not ask the Secretary-General of the United Nations to summon a special conference of all the parties to address the Ukrainian situation: to ensure the territorial integrity of Ukraine, a proper recognition of the legitimate interests of Russia, and an end to this drift—as I say—into a new cold war?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to raise the United Nations. I repeat what I have already said: the UK is playing a leading role to secure UN action. There is a meeting of the UN tonight. There is an Australian-led draft resolution, which the United Kingdom very much supports. Along with Australia, we have accelerated discussions on this, which welcomes a Ukrainian-led investigation, containing strong language on access to, and dignity in dealing with, the bodies and incorporating tougher UK language from the draft press statement.

Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would emphasise to the noble Baroness and to all noble Lords that I shall sit around the same Cabinet table and participate fully in its discussions in exactly the same way as all my predecessors did. It will be a great privilege to do so. As to her question about the salary that the post attracts, I can assure the House that careful consideration is being given to the propriety of any arrangement.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what is at stake here is not the status of my noble friend but the status of this House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can tell my noble friend that I believe that we have a duty to uphold the reputation of the House as a serious and distinguished institution that serves the public interest. That is what we will be judged on and that is what I intend to do. I hope that I have the support of all noble Lords in fulfilling that responsibility.

EU Council June 2014

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 30th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, there are generally a number of countries in discussion with the European Union about becoming members. We have had the signing of the association agreements with Georgia, Moldova and, obviously, Ukraine. There was a discussion at the European Council about Albania being able to apply for status. There is appetite for membership to continue to grow.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I express the hope that the Prime Minister will spend some time this summer in bilateral conversations with our friends, colleagues and neighbours in the European Union. Could we bear in mind throughout that isolation is rarely splendid, and is even more rarely successful or sensible?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I say to my noble friend that I know how much time the Prime Minister spends on bilateral relationships with a range of European partners in a range of different fora. I know from my time in Downing Street 20-odd years ago, when the European Union was smaller, how much time the Prime Minister of the day has to spend on those relationships. This Prime Minister will certainly do that, as have all previous Prime Ministers.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, not for the first time I follow the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and endorse everything that he said in his concluding words. We do not want the grandiose, grandstanding scheme that came to such grief. I am proud to be wearing the tie which was produced by the Conservative rebels in another place to celebrate the demise of the Clegg Bill. They presented me with it as an honorary member of their group and I indeed wear it with pride. Of course, if the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, had his way I would not be making this speech until June of this year at the earliest. However, as that would have prevented many colleagues in both parts of the House from contributing to this debate, perhaps the noble Earl will indulge me, too.

This debate has been made memorable by one particular speech: that of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who was wise, measured, judicious, balanced and, above all, witty. He has brought to our deliberations immense experience, and a depth and breadth of knowledge. He is one of the most civilised men in this House and we shall all be the poorer for his going. But he has chosen the moment and doubtless has had in his mind the strictures that some of us had in the other place when we decided to step down: go when they say, “Please don’t”, not when they say, “When the hell is he going?”. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will be much missed but I hope that we shall see him often sitting on the steps of the Throne, having lunch at the long table and maintaining the friendships which we deeply cherish.

I am also glad to add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Steel, who has indeed been dogged and persistent. He has been prepared to accept compromise rather than total defeat because the Bill that he first introduced—for various reasons, which we do not need to rehearse now—was not considered acceptable by the powers that be or even by some Members of your Lordships’ House. So my noble friend Lord Steel truncated the Bill to get it through this House, but we owe another person an enormous debt for using his good fortune in the ballot and taking this up. I refer to my former constituent Mr Dan Byles, who I had the pleasure of knowing before he entered the other House. Indeed, he even spent a week or so shadowing me in my office in the Commons so that he could be familiar with at least some of the arcane procedures in another place. If I remember rightly, one thing he did was to come to one of the meetings of the group to which a number of your Lordships have referred: the one which I have the honour of chairing and which my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth convenes most efficiently, almost on a weekly basis. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, was a founder member of this group, as he said in his speech, and he has hardly missed a meeting over the last 12 years.

This is a modest but necessary measure. It is very good that every one of your Lordships who has spoken in this debate has indicated, whatever their reservations—I think of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness—that they do not intend to stand in the way of the Bill’s progress to the statute book. It is a small step: a modest measure but a necessary measure. It will provide a provision on which we can build for retirement.

Here, I part company with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—I call him my noble friend—as I do not believe that there is no place for some form of recognition of retirement. Someone who has given long service in this House deserves to have some recognition. We had a meeting of the group with which my noble friend Lord Norton and I are associated earlier this week at which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, who has spoken so eloquently today, put forward some of his proposals. There were others and there are many that can be considered. However, I warmly commend some of those proposals to my noble friend the Leader of the House, to whom again we owe a great debt for his realistic and quiet persistence, and his help in this matter. I will not repeat the proposals but I hope that he will consider some of those which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, advanced in his speech and which others have touched upon.

Yesterday, I attended the funeral of a very notable parliamentarian. I happened to sit next to the noble Baroness, Lady Healy of Primrose Hill, who is in her place today. She said to me that she would not be speaking today but that she thought it would be rather nice to have somewhere where portraits of Members could be kept. She was not meaning great oil paintings but photographic portraits, so that there would be some visible memory of those who had taken part in proceedings here. I said that I would mention that, with attribution, and I do. It is just one of a whole range of things that can and perhaps should be considered.

I touch on one other matter, as Dr Meg Russell has been mentioned several times during this debate. She came to see me earlier this week and we had a long and extremely helpful conversation. She has much to contribute in the future on the issue of constitutional reform, just as she has in the past, as one of our most distinguished academics. However, I believe that the fear to which she has referred is to some degree misplaced. My noble friend Lord Norton cannot be with us today as he is delivering a lecture in, I think, Scotland. He has sent me a note which he said he would be glad if I could quote, and I willingly do so. He says:

“It is not clear why peers would wish to leave the second chamber in the way that Meg Russell envisages. The only ones for whom it is likely to appeal would be those who are serious candidates for the premiership”.

My noble friend Lord MacGregor referred in his contribution to the late Sir Alec Douglas-Home, formerly the Earl of Home and later Lord Home, who did precisely that. My noble friend Lord Norton continues:

“Otherwise, all the advantages lie with remaining in this chamber. The position would be different in the event of two elected chambers, but we are, fortunately, not in that situation. Dr Russell does not address the ‘so what?’ question and the situations she envisages could be addressed without recourse to legislation. It could be brought within the remit of the Appointments Commission, in examining every nominee of a party leader. The committee could solicit assurances from nominees in terms of their future intentions and commitment to the House”.

I am glad to put my noble friend Lord Norton’s wise words on the record.

The noble Lord, Lord Jay, referred to his role as chairman of the Appointments Commission. He did a very distinguished job there and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, will prove to be an eminently worthy successor. I would like us to move towards a statutory Appointments Commission. We are in fact dealing today with unfinished business. I so agree with all those who have talked about incremental reform—one step at a time. I suggest that the two steps we have to look at in the next Parliament are, first, the reconstitution on a statutory basis of the Appointments Commission. Secondly, we have to address, with great sensitivity and enormous appreciation for the contributions that colleagues have made, the question of whether it is right to move towards a retirement age; whether or not new peerages should carry the title for life but, perhaps, the right to sit in this Chamber for a period of 20 or 25 years or until a certain age—whichever comes the sooner. Those are the sorts of things that we have to look at. We are all concerned with the standing and the reputation of this House. The numbers here do not invalidate that reputation, but we have to be a little careful as we move into the next Parliament and beyond, and as we recognise the ever-present need to refresh with new talent and new experience those who sit on these Benches.

With those words, again, I warmly thank and commend my noble friend Lord Steel and my honourable friend Mr Dan Byles. I hope that their joint endeavours will be crowned with success and that the Bill will now proceed rapidly on to the statute book.

European Council

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, all sides of the House—certainly the Government—absolutely understand the significance of the point that the noble Lord has made about the position of the Crimean Tartars and the particular difficulties they have. We are certainly following developments in Crimea closely, including any impact specifically on the Crimean Tartars. I understand that our embassy in Kiev spoke recently with Mustafa Jemilev, who is one of the leaders of the Tartars. That was expressly for the purpose of expressing the support of the British Government and establishing contact during these difficult times.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, has the Prime Minister and his colleagues in the European Union considered the possibility of seeking a meeting with President Putin to discuss the sort of issues that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, touched on? A properly supervised referendum with international observers might offer a way forward. Bearing in mind that the future peace of our continent depends on stable relations with Russia, surely it is crucial that we do everything possible, as I am sure my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is doing, to defuse tensions and ensure that civilised dialogue can take place.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with my noble friend that it is important to de-escalate the situation as much as we can and as rapidly as possible. It is certainly the case that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been in direct contact with President Putin to discuss these issues and to press the case for establishing a contact group—which is, indeed, the most effective way of de-escalating the situation. I accept and agree with my noble friend that it is important to do what we can to defuse the situation. In that regard, I am sure that the House would agree with the proposition that the Ukrainian Government and people have been remarkably restrained in their response to the situation and done everything that they can not to rise to the bait. In accepting the wish to de-escalate, I think that we need to make it clear—and the Prime Minister has been making this clear—that if Russia chooses not to go down that route, consequences will follow, and we will be prepared, along with the Americans and the EU, to take whatever steps are necessary to make it clear that we cannot tolerate this kind of behaviour.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

This Bill came to this House from another place. In that other place, it was not opposed properly either by the noble Baroness’s party or by the Liberal Democrats. It is a point that has been made before and a point that needs to be made again. This Bill is indeed defective, but it came to us in the state in which it came. Last week, your Lordships’ House inserted two constructive and sensible amendments which did not in any way destroy the intent and purpose of the Bill. It is up to your Lordships’ House to deal with this matter now as expeditiously as we can so that it can go back with those amendments—there may even be another one—and the other place will then have the duty to decide whether it is going to pass the Bill as amended by your Lordships’ House or not. It is at that end of the Corridor where that ultimate decision should be made. It is the duty of this House not to impede what the other House has passed, but to improve it. That has been done. It is now up to the other House—or it should be when we have completed our Committee and Report stages—to accept the amendments or not. Your Lordships’ House must not be cast in the role of a body that has stood in the way of a referendum by destroying the Bill. This House’s duty is to improve, not to destroy. It is the job of the other House to decide whether the legislation should go on the statute book and I hope that that will motivate our discussions today.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the noble Lord has properly said that a week ago, this House passed two constructive amendments. Why did he not support them?

[Lord Cormack]

I made my position very plain at Second Reading. I did not support those amendments because I believed it was sensible to give the Bill a fair passage. However, I accepted last week—and made a speech to this effect—that we had improved the Bill with those two amendments and the Bill had not in any way been destroyed in its intent or purpose. We must not now make ourselves a laughing stock by talking too long or by too many of us talking. We need to get this Bill through today so we can have Report next week or as soon as possible. The Commons must make the final decision as to whether this Bill goes on the statute book.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has spoken about sticking to the rules in your Lordships’ House. I listened carefully to what he said and could not detect whether he was speaking for or against the amendment in front of us. I was quite clear last week that he was against the amendments that he now admits have improved the Bill. Information would be helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Triesman (Lab)]

My Lords, I was not passing up the opportunity, I just could not believe that no one else was standing up.

The amendments present some serious options for the House to consider. There is a need for serious parliamentary analysis of the outcome of whatever referendum there may be. Let me set out the argument in these terms. It may be that, after a referendum, it is wholly clear what the people of the United Kingdom wanted—but, even in those circumstances, some things would not be wholly clear because work would still fall to be done.

I am not saying that because I would disrespect a serious majority among a large number of people voting, but just in terms of trying to work out what would need to be done and how we might set about it. The precise terms of the disengagement would need to be thought through and negotiated. Later amendments address this question, but there would need to be a consideration of what the continuing relationship would be as, many people would submit, we would not simply cut ourselves off and that would be the end of the matter; there would be a continuing relationship of some kind, and that would need to be thought through. The terms of the continuing relationship would, I submit, need to cover trade agreements and competition rules—we would not want suddenly to find that the businesses and industries of the United Kingdom were at a massive disadvantage in relation to other nations in competition terms. We would need to look with considerable attention at labour market arrangements—I know that they are among the most highly contentious things, but none the less, it is unavoidable that we would need to analyse them properly.

I will not bore the House with the whole list, but as another example, we would need to look at environmental co-operation and at all the arrangements, which have preoccupied me during parts of my career, for the relationship between higher education institutions, the movement of scholars, what we regard as comparable qualifications and so on. In all those cases, and in many other issues, we would need to consider timing. Their timing might not be identical. There would need to be a serious analysis. Parliament will have a major role in that analysis at every phase.

I made the point a few moments ago that in the case of a big majority and a very good turnout, we might be able to say that we were at least wholly clear. In those circumstances, there is what I described last Friday as an expression of the settled will. Even that has its complexities, which are also addressed in amendments. The settled will of people in Scotland or people in Wales about the EU is a significant issue, because we have already devolved a considerable amount of political authority, and I think that the people to whom that political authority has moved will want to feel that they have an objective view of what is happening and what their interests might be. So even that expression of settled will has ramifications.

However, the result may not be of that kind. Personally, I do not believe that it will be. I would like to believe that the people of the United Kingdom would wish to remain in the European Union, but let us suppose for a moment that they decided by a very marginal result, on a very small turnout, that there was a wish to leave. I completely accept that that would be a result of sorts, but just think of the set of negotiations which we would need to conduct. Those negotiations would be considerably complicated by being conducted in circumstances where there was a marginal result on a low turnout. All the counterparties in the negotiation would understand that it was a weak decision which, in that sense, would reflect that at that moment we had become a weak nation. I cannot believe that counterparties in the modern world would not take advantage of those circumstances. Those are real politics in what could be a real set of circumstances.

I have heard it said in the House that we resolve issues at general elections on simple majorities. However, this is not like a general election, where people are being voted for in a single constituency. It is not one-650th of the variance at stake; it is much more profound than that. Neither will it be changed five years further on by another election or, in an even shorter period, by a by-election. It is essentially an indelible decision and, for all those reasons, it does not have the potential to be corrected—certainly not in the short or the middle term.

I do not believe that the appeal to other kinds of votes which we have had on other matters is really a direct comparison either. The weight of this decision is quite different from that about whether someone wants to have a mayor in Tyneside, for example. That is no comment on Tyneside or its relative importance; it could be a mayor anywhere else. It is simply a different decision, and when people have said, “Well, what about all those decisions?”, I cannot believe that they would transform our constitution in so fundamental a way on the basis of those kinds of decisions setting the precedents. The length of time for which the decision would hold, as I said, would be of profound significance.

I would argue that the issues at stake are quite different. This set of decisions will be fundamental to our economy, now and in the future. The decisions will be fundamental to our relations in economic terms with North America, China, the BRIC states and the MINT states, whatever difficulties some of those states may be facing, probably temporarily. When we start thinking about the character of the economic relations that we would want with them, we will have a totally different game plan in any negotiation with them, depending on whether we are doing it within Europe or trying to do it without the rest of Europe. It is fundamental to our economy, and to political and international relations.

I ask the House to reflect on what has happened in the past weeks over Iran, the possible consequences—they are not certain by any means; it is still highly problematic—for Syria and Iraq, and the broader settlement of the Middle East conflict. The role of my noble friend Lady Ashton has been commented on, quite rightly, in this House and at some length. I believe that everybody in your Lordships’ House understands that the power and authority which she exhibited in that role was because she was speaking for a bloc of real international importance, and that she could not have achieved that result, whatever her talents, in any other way. That is a Britain operating properly in an international context to produce profound international results which may be a route—as I earnestly pray that they will be—towards a peace which has been so elusive.

Our impact, even with a permanent seat on the Security Council, is not of the same order. We are relatively small and no longer quite a power in the old sense. I believe that if we took the wrong decision, it would not be long before the argument about whether we should retain that permanent seat rose to the top of the agenda again. If I was in one of the countries that might be affected, I can tell your Lordships that it would be high on my agenda because I would know that I was speaking from strength to people who would speak only from weakness.

The reason I put all these points to the House is that my view is that the decision has to be very clear, and it is inevitable that Parliament will have to review and decide in terms of the realities on the ground. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, made the point last Friday about how people would have to deal with the realities. We already know that the decision taken in a referendum would be advisory. That has certainly given weight to the decision but it still means that there is much to do, and it will have to be done by both Houses.

[Lord Cormack]

The noble Lord has made a number of constructive and sensible speeches from the Dispatch Box. Is he speaking on behalf of the Official Opposition? If that is the case, why on earth were these points not put with such cogent lucidity in another place by those who speak for his party on these issues?

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I am speaking for myself in this House. This is a Private Member’s Bill and all I can do is to urge the House on the basis of my experience of foreign affairs. As I think I said last week to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, the decisions taken at the other end will always be decisions with which I shall not even try to interfere, knowing the way that that would be responded to. I will try to tie this up quickly. I understand why the noble Lord makes his point but I think that everyone will know that, whether sitting on government Benches or on these Benches, I have essentially argued in this way the whole of the time that I have been in your Lordships’ House. I am making these points because I think that they are the right points to make.

If the result is a narrow one on a low turnout, the terms of disengagement will appear to Parliament to be potentially quite dangerous—or very dangerous—for the United Kingdom both in economics and politics, as I have said. In those circumstances, to decide to go ahead regardless—to recognise that it is an oncoming car crash and to do nothing about that—is hardly what the people of the United Kingdom will expect of their Parliament. Few will regard it in the decades that follow as having been a heroic moment. The bell-wether moments in geopolitics are probably not all that many but I suspect that, rather like the comment that this might be the most profound decision in 60 years, if we get it wrong in terms of geopolitics it may well rank with Suez and one or two other things which have been real disasters for us internationally.

Parliament is the best judge of this. It is sensible to say that the weight of the vote will show itself either to be compelling or not, and will show whether there is a settled will. Taking the right steps to be negotiated and assessed will be a matter for Parliament. It is not in any sense disrespectful to the people of the United Kingdom for their Parliament to give coherent thought to the real circumstances—what in some circles are called the ground truths.

The only objection to this is not to do with democracy or following democratic practice. The objection is that it would get in the way of a rush to exit the EU. That is why the Bill is in the form that it is and it is reckless—a word that was used earlier in the debate. It may be that Mr Cameron does not intend this to be the outcome, but it may also be that he can no longer manage the wish of much of his party to leave the EU.

Some may have reached that decision because they have a paralysed fear of UKIP and no desire to take on UKIP and its arguments. That would be a pity. However, I suspect that many simply want to leave the EU and that is all there is to it. They are entitled to that view but this House and the other place—Parliament as a whole—are entitled to ensure that we get the whole of this right, so that we know that the will of the people of the United Kingdom is a serious expression, not a marginal one leaving us with little to say in anything that follows.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Yes, former Leader of the House.

This Bill has been criticised by people like the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, with a distinguished record in the Civil Service, who has described it as reckless, and by people like my noble friend Lord Giddens, a distinguished scholar, who has warned of possible protracted legal challenges. These are the kind of things that the promoter of the Bill should take account of and answer in debate. He should deal with them and he has dealt with none of them. Not one of them has been dealt with. He is totally inadequate in promoting this Bill.

My noble friend Lord Triesman gave a brilliant reply. It was one of those speeches which you wish you had made yourself, because it was so eloquent. It was a brilliant analysis—I will get the money later.

[Lord Cormack]

The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, made it quite plain that he was speaking for himself.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

He was not speaking for me—I wish he had been, if you see what I mean—but I agree with everything he said. Have I got that right? Yes. As he pointed out, we are not talking just about election to a constituency in a general election, when, of course, a few votes here or there can decide it, but it can change in five years’ time, and things change again and again. We are talking about an irrevocable decision, and if that irrevocable decision is made on a low turnout by just a few people or if it is made by the people of Gibraltar, because the vote is so close, it would really be an outrage.

I believe that this amendment is the right one. However, it has been pointed out to me that it is technically deficient; it is not drafted in the right way. There are other amendments later that would do the same thing, which we can consider when we get to them. Therefore, for that reason and for that reason alone, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

I realise that this is about voting, but the voting will be at the end of a process of debate, and if we can help to formulate a mechanism in which that debate is likely to be most relevant and successful, that seems to me of very considerable benefit in the whole process that could lead up to the referendum. Could the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, reflect on that? I take the point that this is about making arrangements so that people get a chance to express a view on the future of the United Kingdom in the EU. I would like to believe that he thinks, and I feel sure that he will, that it is important to know that the quality of the debate will be as fundamental before that decision is taken as the decision itself—otherwise it will probably be a decision repented of at leisure.

[Lord Cormack]

I express the hope that it is not as a result of our friendly exchange this morning that the noble Lord is now speaking from the Back Benches.

[Lord Triesman]

I promise that I shall be even closer to the noble Lord later.

House of Lords: Size

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is about 12 years since my noble friend Lord Norton and I formed a group to which many of your Lordships come quite often: the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber. Over the years, my noble friend has with assiduity acted as our convenor, and I have chaired the sessions, and we have had some fascinating discussions. We are all grateful to my noble friend for the clear, forensic way in which he introduced the debate today.

Our group was formed because we believed in a second Chamber that was appointed and not elected and therefore did not challenge the unambiguous democratic mandate of another place. I still strongly believe that there is a real place for such a second Chamber and I believe that we have demonstrated that in recent years. We all know those wonderful lines from “Iolanthe”, looking back to previous eras:

“The House of Peers, throughout the war

Did nothing in particular

And did it very well”.

Well, we have over the past 12 years and more done quite a lot of particular things and done them very well. We live in a time, as has already been referred to, where much legislation comes to us not having been discussed at all in another place. The skill with which the experts in this place analyse and scrutinise is of incalculable importance to the people of this country.

That is why it is important that the reputation of this House should stand high. I believe that it does. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester made an interesting speech, but he referred to our being dysfunctional in some respects. I do not think that we are. There are of course dangers, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and others have been right to refer to them, but my noble friend Lord True was also right to refer us to an era when only 12 or 15 Peers were appointed each year. The answer to the problem of size—and it is a problem—lies in three things. The first is an abandonment of any idea of a ratio to the last general election; the second is a degree of self-restraint; and the third is underlining in the appointments that are made the fact that this is indeed a House of expertise.

I welcome as others have done those who have recently joined our ranks. It would be invidious for me to pick out a whole list of names, but I give just four to your Lordships to illustrate the importance of bringing in fresh blood: on these Benches, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who has remarkable experience in commerce; my noble friend Lord Bamford, who has achieved so much in industry; and from the Cross Benches, the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, who is already making a real mark in this House and who knows more about the technological revolution than most of the rest of us put together. And then one thinks of the former Governor of the Bank of England, the noble Lord, Lord King, to whom I was speaking yesterday. The appointment of people such as this enriches this Chamber and therefore enriches the counsels of the nation. It is very important that we should continue to do that.

But there must be an abandonment of the ratio idea and there must be a paring-down of the number of Peers who are appointed each year. As someone earlier pointed out, sadly, we lose 12 or 15 Members each year on average. If the number of annual appointments was of that order, we would certainly not be inflating the size of the House. My noble friend Lord Norton in his very admirable speech referred, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to the average attendance now being 484 per day, but we must bear in mind that they are not the same 484 people day after day. If we are to draw upon a wide range of experience and deep reservoir of talent, we must not be over-worried about numbers, although we are right to be concerned. Concern is something we all share. We are concerned about the reputation of this House.

I very much hope that Mr Dan Byles’s Bill will complete its passage through another place, come to this House and be given an expeditious passage. In effect, it was passed here last year. It can then get on to the statute book with the Government’s support and it is right that it should. But I will just make one specific request and one suggestion to my noble friend the Leader of the House, fully appreciating that he cannot comment in detail on the first point that I will put to him. When people are being appointed to this House, let us bear in mind the need for expertise. Let us ask ourselves the question “Do they also serve who only come to vote?”. To appoint people to this House who play really no part in our proceedings and merely vote in the Lobbies is not serving the nation or Parliament as it should.

Apart from that comment, I put two suggestions to my noble friend the Leader of the House. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was an admirable Lord Speaker of this House. In her just as admirable speech, she suggested that party leaders should try to get together. I agree with that but something else should be done. I say this with a degree of hesitation and reservation because I do not want to see a proliferation of committees, but in the last year of this Parliament there is a real case for establishing a Select Committee of this House to consider the sort of suggestions and comments that have been made this afternoon and to try to draw up what might be a blueprint for the House of Lords as we move through the 21st century.

There will always be a need for a place like this. There will always be a need for men and women of expertise and experience to debate the laws of the land. There will always be a need for those set-piece debates—we do not have enough of them—such as we had on Syria where the enormous and varied experience can bring to the counsels of the nation a true balance and some real worth.

Procedure of the House

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I would like to be very brief. I have just three small points; or rather, they are not small, but I will try to put them briefly. Before I do so, I should say that I found the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, very strong and, certainly for me, very convincing.

First, I want to take up what the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, just said, which was reflected by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and a number of other noble Lords. It seems to suggest that a Back-Bench Committee would be devoid of all sympathy for the more esoteric topics that might need to be debated. I think it is rather insulting towards Back-Benchers to suggest that they might not be interested in topics which are rather unusual but personally important to the people proposing them.

The noble Lord the Leader of the House is wedded to the word “balloting”. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has once again said—as I have done before—that we should not be using the word ballot in relation to the present system. It is a lucky dip. If you want a ballot then you should be supporting a Back- Bench committee because such a democratically elected committee, working on democratic principles, would be deciding on what debates should take place by balloting within the committee. That is where you get the ballot. So let us not confuse balloting with lucky dips; that is the present system and I find it quite extraordinary.

Finally, I think the case the noble Lord the Leader of the House has made falls flat when we come to paragraph 14 in the report, when he says that all Back-Benchers must,

“have an equal chance of securing time to debate issues of concern to them, without having to secure the approval of their peers”.

Peer approval is one of the cornerstones of a self-regulating House and I strongly believe that there is a case for setting up a committee where democratically elected Back-Benchers can decide and make proposals as to what they think it is in the broad interests of the House as a whole to listen to when debate slots are available. I know we have a topical debate period but it is very important that a Back-Bench committee should be sensitive to both the more specialised issues that some would want to debate—and they would be taken into consideration—and also to the broader interests of the House. This is to make sure that highly important issues do not go by the board because a lucky dip has decided that they have no place in the debating Chamber.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is right in what he says. We are only asking for a very modest proposal to be accepted by the House. We are asking for an experimental period of one parliamentary Session. We are not suggesting that, during that period, the present system should be completely abandoned. So the House will have the opportunity, as a self-regulating House, to look at the two systems working side by side.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, of course there should be a form of election for this committee. I would favour the various groups— the Labour group, the Cross-Benchers, the Bishops—nominating members to sit on this committee. That would be a tidy and sensible way of doing it. The committee would then have the opportunity to listen to the proposals put to it.

It is nonsense that we have had grave international situations that have not been debated in this House. We had to wait ages for the Arab spring debate. My noble friend Lord Higgins talked about the euro crisis. If this House, to use the words of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, is to be truly relevant to our nation and to its problems, it has to have the opportunity, in a timely and opportune manner, to debate the issues that are concerning people. Occasionally, these may be esoteric: I do not believe that a properly constituted Back-Bench committee would choose only grand international events to debate. Of course it should not, and I believe it would not. However, I do think we should give it a chance. We are a self-regulating House; let us regulate ourselves in this way in accordance with the recommendations of the Goodlad committee.

The greatest thing about this House, in my experience, is that it is collegiate in a way that the other place is not. We sit together on the Long Table and talk. We are not talking about debates that will end in votes. Let us discuss where we should focus our attention. Let us see how this group of colleagues works together. If at the end of the year the committee has not produced the goods, we will abandon the experiment. I do not believe that if you start an experiment you have to continue it in perpetuity; of course you do not. An experiment is an experiment, and I beg the House to give this one a chance.

[Lord Richard]

Perhaps I may detain your Lordships for just two minutes. I am in the very unusual position of agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. It is not something that happens daily in this House, and it certainly did not happen over reform of your Lordships’ House. However, I am bound to say that I came to this debate in a wholly neutral frame of mind. I was not sure whether I liked the idea or whether I did not. One argument seems to be absolutely critical, and for me conclusive. When I was Leader of the Opposition in this House, when I was Leader of the House and indeed since, it struck me—as I suspect it has struck every other Leader—that the one great gap in our procedures is that one cannot raise an urgent issue. It is almost impossible. If one wants to secure a debate in this House on an issue such as the Arab spring or North Korea’s nuclear policy, unless the Government are prepared to give it time, one cannot get it. That is wrong. A parliamentary assembly ought to have a procedure whereby issues that are clearly urgent and topical are capable of being discussed. That gap is partially—only partially—filled by the proposals for this experiment. For me that is the conclusive argument. It fills a gap in the procedures of our House that has existed for many years, and we would then be in a position, like other parliamentary assemblies, to deal with urgent, topical questions, which at the moment we are not.