The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
My Lords, before any of your Lordships leap up to accuse me of telling a lie in my first sentence, let me admit that this is the sixth time that I have introduced this Bill, in its various incarnations. The first time was on 20 July 2007. The Bill before us today is almost identical to the fifth Bill, which passed through all its stages in this House in the previous Session, under the title House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill. We therefore hope for an untroubled passage again today. I will outline the minor changes made in the Commons in a moment.
Before I go into the substance of the Bill, I should like to place on record my thanks to four colleagues who have been instrumental in getting us to this stage. The first is to Mr Dan Byles, the MP for North Warwickshire, who, having won a place in Mr Speaker’s ballot for Private Members’ Bills, took this one up, and as I saw, piloted it through all its stages in the Commons, not only with great skill but with a patience I would have found it difficult to summon in the face of some very odd attempts at amendment. I note in passing that Dan Byles, like Rory Stewart in Cumbria, is one of the few Conservative MPs to be selected for their constituency by one of David Cameron’s splendid open primaries. Before he produced his Bill, his main claim to fame was that he had rowed across the Atlantic and trekked to the North Pole—not things that many Members can claim to have done.
My second thanks are to my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, who, as a political scientist, was responsible for the first draft of the original Bill six years ago and has been a source of good advice and assistance ever since.
The Bill today lacks two important provisions from the original Bill: the end to hereditary Peer by-elections and the appointment of a statutory appointments commission. However, these will reappear in the next Session in the Bill tabled by our former Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is very sorry not to be with us today because of a long-standing school speaking engagement. Today’s measure is a much more modest and slimmed-down version of the original. By the way, we should stop calling it the Steel Bill—its proper name is now the Norton-Steel- Byles Bill.
My third and fourth thanks are to the two Leaders of our House who, behind the scenes, have encouraged the adoption of these minor but necessary reforms. Both my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord Hill of Oareford were not only generous in their advice and encouragement, but had to persuade various Cabinet colleagues of the need for the reforms, some of whom—not mentioning any names—were more difficult than others. The House should be deeply grateful to them.
The Bill consists of just three provisions. First, Clause 1 introduces the right to resign membership of the House. At the moment, a Peer is a Member of the House for life once appointed, notwithstanding the current availability of permanent leave of absence. That is not really retirement, as those who have taken it will discover next year when they still receive the Writ of Summons. For the first time, the law of the land will make it possible to end membership of the House. The Bill does not specify how that should be done; it simply gives the House the statutory authority to introduce a scheme for retirement, which will have to be prepared after the Bill becomes law. The Leader of the House will, no doubt, outline how that might be done. In the end, the House itself will have to approve a scheme, but I do not want us to get unduly distracted by discussing what that scheme might include.
Contrary to the findings of the working group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, the Government—supported, I understand, by the other party leaders—have ruled out any financial package on retirement. We may have to return to that if we are to secure serious reductions in our numbers and if we can prove that, in so doing, there would be a saving to the House budget and therefore the taxpayer. However, there is no permanent financial provision in the Bill, nor is there any suggested age cut-off. Most Members appear to agree that retired Peers should enjoy some of the facilities made available to the hereditary Peers who were removed under the 1999 Act, and that there might be some ceremony on departure, but those are all matters for another day.
I add in passing that one of the more—how can I put this politely?—exotic amendments proposed in the other place, by Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg, was to encourage Peers to retire by offering Barons a viscountcy. I am sure all noble Baronesses would agree we should not go there. Nor did Mr Rees-Mogg say what would be offered to those who are already Viscounts or, for that matter, Earls, Marquesses and Dukes. The mind boggles at his ingenuity, but none of it, I hope, will appear in the scheme.
The second provision in the Bill is to remove those Peers who fail to attend our proceedings for a whole Session; there were 72 in the previous Session, most of whom had leave of absence. One amendment made in the Commons enables the House to decide to ignore that new rule in special circumstances—for example, if a Peer is forcibly detained abroad. Clause 2 would at least bring down our total numbers and save a small amount of work by not continuing to send them papers.
The third provision enables the House to come into line with the House of Commons by expelling serious wrongdoers from Parliament. Convicted offenders should not be legislators and, from the date of this Bill’s passage, any Peer convicted and sentenced to one year or more in prison will be automatically expelled. The second amendment made in the Commons, to Clause 3(9), dealt with a point that was raised in our House, about those convicted in foreign courts. In those cases, expulsion would not be automatic but only on resolution of the House. Those, then, are the three purposes of the Bill.
Clause 4 spells out the consequences of resignation. For example, it is now stipulated that hereditary Peer by-elections will continue to be held. Mr Byles fended off an ungracious amendment to the effect that any hereditary Peer retiring should be deemed to be dead, so that their heir could stand in a by-election. Peers resigning will have the right to vote restored, as well as the right to stand for the Commons. I do not, however, share the anxiety expressed by some distinguished academics that this will lead to people being nominated as Peers to train as parliamentary candidates. It is somewhat fanciful to think that any party leader would nominate in such a way.
As I said at the outset, this is a limited reform Bill, adding to the record of incremental reforms to our House passed over the years. It does not, in any way, cut across a large variety of possible future reforms. As we have little time left in this Session, we cannot play ping-pong with the Bill, so we cannot have any amendments if it is to pass into law; today’s debate really has to be the last if we want these reforms. The Bill has been supported in all quarters of the House, especially through the long-standing group chaired by Sir Patrick Cormack MP, as he was then, now my noble friend. I look forward to a short but effective debate.
One of many from the opposition Benches who has been consistently supportive is the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. I am sorry that he has decided not to wait any longer for statutory retirement, but to withdraw from the service of the House, to which he has given truly outstanding service over 30 years. We all look forward to his contribution in a moment.
As we have already passed the Bill under a different title in the previous Session, I am confident in proposing that it now be read a second time.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, as we have heard, it is the sixth time that my noble friend Lord Steel has launched a Bill on House of Lords reform upon the waters. On previous occasions the winds have blown and the seas have been stormy; various pieces of ballast have had to be thrown overboard. Finally, we have the chance today to help my noble friend steer his Bill safely to harbour. The clear mood of this House is that we want to do so. We are all grateful to him for his perseverance. This time last year a very similar Bill fell in the other place. Having spoken to my noble friend after that, I am pretty sure that he was ready to throw in the towel.
One year on, the Government’s position on the need for more fundamental House of Lords reform has not changed; that is, in support of a largely elected House. I was not altogether clear from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, whether he was beginning a stately retreat from the opposition party’s position on the need for a reformed House. But we will see that in the fullness of time.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I cannot resist the temptation. I have made it absolutely clear that we are committed to substantive reform, but that should not be at the expense of sensible, moderate change, which is why we support the Bill.
Lord Hill of Oareford
We will see what happens in due course. However, I think that a number of the proposals sketched out in the Daily Telegraph, to which noble Lords have alluded, would not constitute in most people’s minds moderate reforms of the sort proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel, which, after much difficulty, we can now support. I think we are agreed that his proposals are modest and consensual. Therefore, the only logical conclusion from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said is that, should the party opposite gain office, it would bring forward a stream of legislation on House of Lords reform. That legislation would, first, seek to limit the size of the House, then propose a retirement scheme, before moving in short order to propose an elected House. We can all look forward to the possibility of a constant stream of constitutional reform from the party opposite.
However, so far as this Bill is concerned, which is what we are here to talk about today, I am extremely glad that the Government’s position on these provisions has changed and that I can support the Bill. I thank my noble friend and especially Mr Dan Byles, as we all have, who have helped us to get to this point. I also thank Mr Dan Byles for standing through our debate this morning.
As we have heard, this is a modest Bill, perhaps more modest than those on both wings of the debate might like. Nevertheless, it is a sensible Bill. I would like to say a few words about the three main provisions covering criminal convictions, non-attendance and retirement. The first provides for the expulsion from the House of Members convicted of a serious criminal offence and jailed for more than a year. This will not cover many Members, I hope, but it closes a loophole and is also of a piece with other steps that I have been keen to take, which help to reinforce our commitment to the highest possible standards, and our determination to police ourselves effectively. I think that speaks to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather.
These steps have already included tightening up the Code of Conduct with the introduction of a new sanction which would enable the House to deny access to financial support and facilities to those whose behaviour falls below the standards we demand. I am extremely proud of the work of this House and the behaviour of noble Lords, but I am clear that we need to have a range of measures at our disposal so that we can take action against those who fall short. I shall continue to explore in the Privileges Committee, among other places, all options short of legislation which will help in this task. I agree with those who have said that the reputation of the many needs to be defended against the behaviour of the few. In that context, the measure in the Bill on criminal convictions is a welcome addition to the measures we have in our armoury.
The Bill’s second provision deals with Peers who do not attend the House. Of course, membership of our House is not full time, and nor should it be. One of our strengths is that Peers can bring up-to-date experience to bear from other walks of life. However, we support the intention of the Bill that Peers who never attend and have not sought leave of absence from this House should be permanently excluded.
The third provision concerns retirement. Under the Bill, retirement will be legally binding and irreversible. This seems to me a sensible step forward from the current voluntary scheme, of which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is to be only the fourth, and, I suspect, the last Member to take advantage. The warmth of the tributes we have heard today are the surest and most eloquent sign of the highest regard in which the noble Lord has been held throughout his 18 years in our House. I cannot add to and improve on what has been said. However, the noble Lord hinted that he might pick up his pen yet again and add to the list of his novels, which some noble Lords may have read—I think that one is entitled Margot and another The Gazelle and which I am sure are available through Amazon at the same price as my own book, which is 1p. However, you do have to pay for postage. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will clearly be sorely missed. It is impossible to mistake the genuine affection in all the comments made about him today.
If the Bill is passed, the next question is how we can encourage more noble Lords to take advantage of the retirement scheme. I should say straightaway that, as noble Lords know, I do not believe that any kind of financial incentive would be justifiable. As I have said before, I know that the group leaders and the Convenor strongly support this view. However, as many noble Lords have said in the course of our debate, we could do more to mark the permanent retirement of a Peer. We have heard several proposals this morning, including the introduction of a retirement ceremony in the Chamber, the farewell speech suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tributes and various other suggestions. The Bill rightly leaves these matters for the House to decide. However, I strongly encourage noble Lords to let me have suggestions which we can look at in more detail. Then, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in consultation with the Lord Speaker, we could see what range of measures could be considered.
There has been a fair bit of discussion about the absence of a cooling-off period in the Bill. I probably do not need to add too much to what has been said, not least most recently by my noble friend Lord Wakeham. I think we are all clear that we do not expect this to be a practical problem. Our own Constitution Committee was very clear on that point and concluded that the Bill raised,
“no problems of constitutional concern”.
We do not accept that, without a mandatory minimum interval, this House would become a training ground for MPs. I do not believe that party leaders would be tempted by such a scheme, but, even more so, it seems to me unlikely that a Peer would want to resign from this place when the Bill makes it absolutely clear that they would never be able to come back, so it could not be a two-way journey between the two Houses. That said, I understand the concerns raised about it. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I put on the record that, were that to become a problem in the future, we would want to review the situation. There is always an option to legislate to sort it out, should that be necessary.
My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral raised the question of a fund for Peers who were no longer able to attend the House and who fell into hardship. There is absolutely nothing to stop noble Lords contributing to a pot of money for that purpose. I would not support taxpayers’ money being used for that on the same basis that I would not support it being used for some other kind of financial incentive. As regards where that idea has got to, my understanding is that as the fund could not be a charity, because the only beneficiaries would be Members of this House and because of other practical issues, the idea has slightly run into the sand. However, I would be very happy to discuss that further with my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, as I always am, if he would like to do so.
At the outset, my noble friend Lord Steel asked me to set out what the next practical steps would be in terms of setting up a scheme, if we pass the Bill, as I believe, and hope, that we will. There does not need to be a scheme as such; we would just need to take a number of relatively small practical steps of a housekeeping nature. For instance, in terms of retirement, we would need to consider abolishing the existing voluntary scheme in order to avoid any confusion. That is something we would take through the Procedure Committee. If we needed to bring in a procedure to allow incapacitated Peers to take retirement, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards the question around the retirement ceremony or other formal ways of marking the occasion, once we have worked up ideas, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards access to rights or privileges in the House—for example, being able to sit on the Steps of the Throne and the use of dining facilities—that would be a matter for the House Committee. However, I obviously undertake to discuss that with my noble friend Lord Steel to make sure that he knows the way in which we are taking it forward, and, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments, make sure that those things are done as speedily as is necessary once the Bill receives Royal Assent.
In a spirit of pragmatism, of which we have heard a lot this morning, I am delighted to support the Bill. I speak for the Government and, I believe, the whole House in saying that we should seize the opportunity presented to us today and help my noble friend Lord Steel and his Bill finally reach dry land.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Leader has just reminded me that a couple of raisins and a nut should be available in the Bishops’ Bar. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.