House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Bill and the debate. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, whose report has undoubtedly stood the test of time. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for bringing a version of his Bill back at the sixth time of asking. Given that I stood at the Dispatch Box opposite at least a couple of times, when I led a rather less than enthusiastic response to his earlier efforts, I should put that right today by saying that the Opposition support the noble Lord’s Bill without hesitation.

I pay tribute also to my noble friend Lord Grenfell, who is a wonderful colleague, an outstanding parliamentarian and a superb internationalist. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that there should be an appropriate ceremony for departing Members of your Lordships’ House. As my noble friend Lord Grocott said, could there be any more magnificent way of leaving your Lordships’ House than the contribution made by my noble friend this morning?

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, who chaired the working party that brought proposals short of legislation for encouraging the retirement of noble Lords. At a stroke, he has increased our success rate by 33?%—from three to four. Nonetheless, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was unduly modest about his Bill in permitting resignations and dealing with convicted offenders. Rather, I see it as a critical foundation for further reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, asked whether the Labour Party has retreated from its belief in substantive reform. The answer is no—but that should not be at the expense of sensible, interim, incremental reform. As ever, my noble friend Lord Grocott spoke with great wisdom. When I was appointed to your Lordships’ House in 1997, I confidently told my wife that I would be here for no more than three or four years, because by then we would have an elected second Chamber. I have dabbled enough in Lords reform since to know that forecasting when substantive reform of your Lordships’ House will be achieved is a mug’s game. That is why I have come round to the view that we should support small steps taking place on a frequent basis. That would not interfere with or prohibit substantive change if that were to be proposed in due course.

Because I believe that incremental change has much to commend it, I would also commend the report of the working group of Labour Peers, which was chaired by my noble friends Lord Grenfell and Lady Taylor. The report is published today and is a very valuable contribution to the debate. It makes wide-ranging recommendations for a reduction in the numbers of noble Lords to 450 over time and retirement through both age and a minimum attendance record. It deserves to be widely discussed. It has to be seen in contrast to the Government’s apparent determination to increase the size of your Lordships’ House to a really ludicrous extent.

We are privileged that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, will be winding up for the Government. I would like him to confirm that another list is imminent and that, indeed, the coalition’s political majority will grow ever larger.

Noble Lords will know that the scale of government defeats in this Parliament is much less than in the previous Parliament. Does the noble Lord, Lord Hill, agree that this House is nothing unless it is a revising Chamber? Does he also agree that the major encouragement to the House in its role as a revising Chamber is the prospect of the Government being defeated? If the Government do not fear defeat, they are less likely to make the kind of concessions that your Lordships look for. As my noble friend Lord Howarth said, the House of Lords is at its best when a Minister has to win the argument.

I find it rather ironic that the contrast with the Government’s desire further to increase the size of the House is that actually we are going to sit for less and less time during the year. Where will it end? Will there be 1,000 Members, perhaps, sitting for less than half a year? The Leader of the House should come clean on that.

On the point that Meg Russell makes and the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, I understand the point that is being raised. However, I do not share the concern that the House of Lords might become a training ground for aspirant MPs; if only. The noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, put that very well indeed. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, I am certainly not aware of any intention by the Opposition to use your Lordships’ House in that way. I echo my noble friend Lord Haskel’s words of appreciation of Meg Russell and the Constitution Unit. We may disagree with her on this point, but no one can underestimate the extraordinarily valuable work that she and the Constitution Unit have done over the years: long may that continue.

I also thought that my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford had a very interesting point to make with his concerns about the potential ill-use of Clause 3 in the circumstances that he raised. He does not seek to amend the Bill, but at some future point the issues he raised ought to be further discussed.

There is nothing more to say. On this side of the House we welcome the Bill and wish it a very speedy passage.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may seek clarification. I referred in my remarks to the report from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. That has apparently been approved by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the shadow Justice Secretary, Mr Sadiq Khan, so presumably it is jolly far down the way of becoming Labour Party policy. Can he also comment on whether the account of those proposals in the paper today is accurate?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the account was in the Daily Telegraph, so noble Lords will have to make their own judgment as to how accurate they think the Daily Telegraph is. As my noble friend Lord Grenfell has already made clear, this is a report by Labour Peers. It received a great deal of support at the meeting of Labour Peers on Wednesday. It is a contribution to the debate. I speak as deputy leader of our party in the House of Lords and I very much welcome the report and the recommendations that it makes. I believe that they are very sensible. They provide a solution to the interim problems that we face. In my view, they do not conflict with more substantive reform, when that comes.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, it is the sixth time that my noble friend Lord Steel has launched a Bill on House of Lords reform upon the waters. On previous occasions the winds have blown and the seas have been stormy; various pieces of ballast have had to be thrown overboard. Finally, we have the chance today to help my noble friend steer his Bill safely to harbour. The clear mood of this House is that we want to do so. We are all grateful to him for his perseverance. This time last year a very similar Bill fell in the other place. Having spoken to my noble friend after that, I am pretty sure that he was ready to throw in the towel.

One year on, the Government’s position on the need for more fundamental House of Lords reform has not changed; that is, in support of a largely elected House. I was not altogether clear from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, whether he was beginning a stately retreat from the opposition party’s position on the need for a reformed House. But we will see that in the fullness of time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I cannot resist the temptation. I have made it absolutely clear that we are committed to substantive reform, but that should not be at the expense of sensible, moderate change, which is why we support the Bill.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

We will see what happens in due course. However, I think that a number of the proposals sketched out in the Daily Telegraph, to which noble Lords have alluded, would not constitute in most people’s minds moderate reforms of the sort proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel, which, after much difficulty, we can now support. I think we are agreed that his proposals are modest and consensual. Therefore, the only logical conclusion from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said is that, should the party opposite gain office, it would bring forward a stream of legislation on House of Lords reform. That legislation would, first, seek to limit the size of the House, then propose a retirement scheme, before moving in short order to propose an elected House. We can all look forward to the possibility of a constant stream of constitutional reform from the party opposite.

However, so far as this Bill is concerned, which is what we are here to talk about today, I am extremely glad that the Government’s position on these provisions has changed and that I can support the Bill. I thank my noble friend and especially Mr Dan Byles, as we all have, who have helped us to get to this point. I also thank Mr Dan Byles for standing through our debate this morning.

As we have heard, this is a modest Bill, perhaps more modest than those on both wings of the debate might like. Nevertheless, it is a sensible Bill. I would like to say a few words about the three main provisions covering criminal convictions, non-attendance and retirement. The first provides for the expulsion from the House of Members convicted of a serious criminal offence and jailed for more than a year. This will not cover many Members, I hope, but it closes a loophole and is also of a piece with other steps that I have been keen to take, which help to reinforce our commitment to the highest possible standards, and our determination to police ourselves effectively. I think that speaks to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather.

These steps have already included tightening up the Code of Conduct with the introduction of a new sanction which would enable the House to deny access to financial support and facilities to those whose behaviour falls below the standards we demand. I am extremely proud of the work of this House and the behaviour of noble Lords, but I am clear that we need to have a range of measures at our disposal so that we can take action against those who fall short. I shall continue to explore in the Privileges Committee, among other places, all options short of legislation which will help in this task. I agree with those who have said that the reputation of the many needs to be defended against the behaviour of the few. In that context, the measure in the Bill on criminal convictions is a welcome addition to the measures we have in our armoury.

The Bill’s second provision deals with Peers who do not attend the House. Of course, membership of our House is not full time, and nor should it be. One of our strengths is that Peers can bring up-to-date experience to bear from other walks of life. However, we support the intention of the Bill that Peers who never attend and have not sought leave of absence from this House should be permanently excluded.

The third provision concerns retirement. Under the Bill, retirement will be legally binding and irreversible. This seems to me a sensible step forward from the current voluntary scheme, of which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is to be only the fourth, and, I suspect, the last Member to take advantage. The warmth of the tributes we have heard today are the surest and most eloquent sign of the highest regard in which the noble Lord has been held throughout his 18 years in our House. I cannot add to and improve on what has been said. However, the noble Lord hinted that he might pick up his pen yet again and add to the list of his novels, which some noble Lords may have read—I think that one is entitled Margot and another The Gazelle and which I am sure are available through Amazon at the same price as my own book, which is 1p. However, you do have to pay for postage. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will clearly be sorely missed. It is impossible to mistake the genuine affection in all the comments made about him today.

If the Bill is passed, the next question is how we can encourage more noble Lords to take advantage of the retirement scheme. I should say straightaway that, as noble Lords know, I do not believe that any kind of financial incentive would be justifiable. As I have said before, I know that the group leaders and the Convenor strongly support this view. However, as many noble Lords have said in the course of our debate, we could do more to mark the permanent retirement of a Peer. We have heard several proposals this morning, including the introduction of a retirement ceremony in the Chamber, the farewell speech suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tributes and various other suggestions. The Bill rightly leaves these matters for the House to decide. However, I strongly encourage noble Lords to let me have suggestions which we can look at in more detail. Then, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in consultation with the Lord Speaker, we could see what range of measures could be considered.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the absence of a cooling-off period in the Bill. I probably do not need to add too much to what has been said, not least most recently by my noble friend Lord Wakeham. I think we are all clear that we do not expect this to be a practical problem. Our own Constitution Committee was very clear on that point and concluded that the Bill raised,

“no problems of constitutional concern”.

We do not accept that, without a mandatory minimum interval, this House would become a training ground for MPs. I do not believe that party leaders would be tempted by such a scheme, but, even more so, it seems to me unlikely that a Peer would want to resign from this place when the Bill makes it absolutely clear that they would never be able to come back, so it could not be a two-way journey between the two Houses. That said, I understand the concerns raised about it. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I put on the record that, were that to become a problem in the future, we would want to review the situation. There is always an option to legislate to sort it out, should that be necessary.

My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral raised the question of a fund for Peers who were no longer able to attend the House and who fell into hardship. There is absolutely nothing to stop noble Lords contributing to a pot of money for that purpose. I would not support taxpayers’ money being used for that on the same basis that I would not support it being used for some other kind of financial incentive. As regards where that idea has got to, my understanding is that as the fund could not be a charity, because the only beneficiaries would be Members of this House and because of other practical issues, the idea has slightly run into the sand. However, I would be very happy to discuss that further with my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, as I always am, if he would like to do so.

At the outset, my noble friend Lord Steel asked me to set out what the next practical steps would be in terms of setting up a scheme, if we pass the Bill, as I believe, and hope, that we will. There does not need to be a scheme as such; we would just need to take a number of relatively small practical steps of a housekeeping nature. For instance, in terms of retirement, we would need to consider abolishing the existing voluntary scheme in order to avoid any confusion. That is something we would take through the Procedure Committee. If we needed to bring in a procedure to allow incapacitated Peers to take retirement, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards the question around the retirement ceremony or other formal ways of marking the occasion, once we have worked up ideas, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards access to rights or privileges in the House—for example, being able to sit on the Steps of the Throne and the use of dining facilities—that would be a matter for the House Committee. However, I obviously undertake to discuss that with my noble friend Lord Steel to make sure that he knows the way in which we are taking it forward, and, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments, make sure that those things are done as speedily as is necessary once the Bill receives Royal Assent.

In a spirit of pragmatism, of which we have heard a lot this morning, I am delighted to support the Bill. I speak for the Government and, I believe, the whole House in saying that we should seize the opportunity presented to us today and help my noble friend Lord Steel and his Bill finally reach dry land.