Procedure of the House

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

In conclusion, I am sure that the Chairman of Committees will be able to see and interpret the mood of your Lordships’ House today and act accordingly. In the mean time I beg to move.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. I agree with much of what she said, but not all of it. I would not dissent from her on the issue of hours. I have no quarrel with my noble friend the Leader of the House on that, but the noble Baroness’s suggestion of an 8.30 pm finish has much to commend it without in any way reducing the hours that my noble friend would have. That is not the real issue that I want to address.

I am very proud to be a Member of this House. When I came from another place I looked upon this House as one where legislation was properly scrutinised, time was taken and “we do things differently here”. In the context of legislation we do things better here. This is something that we do not wish to lose. We are a self-regulating House. I never want us to be in danger of becoming a government-regulated House. That is why I put down this amendment. I do not agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in stating that, as a rule, all Bills should go to Grand Committee except for her three exceptions.

I do not agree with the noble Baroness for two reasons. One is that it is always difficult to define an exception. What is a highly controversial Bill to some Members of the House may be a matter of simple common sense to others. What is a constitutional Bill to some Members of the House may not be to others. I instance the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. That was, as far as I am concerned, a major constitutional Bill. There were those who argued during our deliberations that it was not. Who is to determine? At the moment it is entirely up to your Lordships’ House to decide whether a Bill goes to Grand Committee or not.

As this Session grinds to a halt we have had a good example in the Welfare Reform Bill. It was suggested that it would be better dealt with in Grand Committee and it went there. It had the consequence, to which the noble Baroness has referred, that Report took much longer because there was no opportunity for voting in Grand Committee. When we are contemplating a move of this nature, we have to bear it in mind that votes do not take place in Grand Committee. My noble friend interjects, “Yet”, and that is one of the points behind my amendment, and one of the reasons why I would like to see this matter looked at again by the Procedure Committee.

In another place a few years ago, the Executive decided that they wanted to take a greater grip of Parliament and to have every Bill programmed. Of course, having sat for almost equal lengths of time on the government and opposition sides of the House, I know that perspective changes according to where you sit. It was wonderful to behold some of the Rottweiler Ministers of 1979 to 1997 suddenly becoming gamekeepers turned poacher when they were in opposition. I make no complaint about that, but I look with fond nostalgia on the memory of the great, late Eric Forth, than whom there was no more draconian Minister and than whom there was no more belligerent opposition Member.

We look at things from different points of view, but Parliament should never be the creature of the Executive. It is difficult enough for Parliament to hold the Executive to account when the Executive are drawn from Parliament. I am not suggesting that we should alter our system. I do not want us to go to an American-style separation of powers, but I recognise that if we are going to get the balance right, the Executive must not trammel, crib, cabin and confine the legislature.

This is exactly what happened in another place shortly after the coming to power of the Blair Administration, when we moved inexorably—partly because Eric Forth and his friends were using the weapon of time somewhat indiscriminately—to the situation where every Bill became timetabled. How often in my brief period here have I heard Members lament the fact that in spite of a change of Government, the timetabling procedures remain? More and more responsibility falls upon your Lordships’ House because of that.

It would be very unfortunate if we allowed ourselves to lose the flexibility that true self-regulation provides. During those 18 years in opposition in the other place, I often came out of the Division Lobby feeling depressed—we could not win, the Government’s majority was so enormous—but my colleagues and I would suddenly see a glimmer of hope and the cry would go up, “Our hope is in the Lords”. Indeed it was, and not infrequently it was realised. The Labour Governments of Mr Blair and Mr Brown suffered a number of significant defeats in this place and sometimes as a consequence they thought again.

As we have seen recently in the long saga of the Health and Social Care Bill, legislation that is—I want to be kind—not exactly perfect can be significantly improved by expertise, time and the fact that Members here have no constituency responsibilities, and no need to answer to an electorate every five years. Things can be improved in here, and we are going to have plenty of opportunity, I suspect, in the forthcoming Session of Parliament to debate that very point. Anything that detracts from self-regulation is to the detriment of this House in particular and Parliament in general.

I say to my noble friend the Leader of the House that he should please beware of that word “presumption”. Just think how much trouble has been caused in recent months by the insertion of that word “presumption” in the context of planning. I do not like documents which presume and I do not like measures which presume. I have nothing against Bills going to Grand Committee but they must go on their individual merits because the House approves of the suggestion that that is where they should go. I urge my noble friend the Leader of the House, when he speaks, to recognise that fact.

That is why I am suggesting that the committee should have the chance to look again and to answer whether we are inadvertently handing over an important aspect of self-regulation. Consider, in the light of the debates that will take place on a possible Lords reform Bill, whether we need this sort of change. We certainly do not need it now because we know from all the leaks that we are going to have a legislation-light Queen’s Speech. If that is the case, why do we need to have this presumption now?

There is another issue—the elephant in the room that is the Bill that dare not speak its name. We all know that it is likely that the Deputy Prime Minister will have his way with us and will produce in the Queen’s Speech some measure of reform affecting your Lordships’ House. I blame not the Leader of the House nor anyone else but in the somewhat febrile atmosphere that has existed in this place for some months there is a teeny suspicion that one of the reasons we are doing this today is to clear the decks for House of Lords reform. That may not be the case. I know not.

In conclusion, I say to my noble friend, than whom there is no more consummate politician in the whole of Parliament, please do not bother with this because you can have your way on individual Bills. They can go to Grand Committee with the House’s approval and blessing and there they can be scrutinised. But do not have this presumption.

Another thing we should bear in mind is not to follow the other place down another steep, slippery slope where so many things are being considered simultaneously in Westminster Hall, in the Chamber and in Committee that it is difficult for an honourable Member adequately to discharge his or her duties. I rest my case.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord has just said. If there is to be a presumption then the presumption should be that legislation should be taken here. There is only one alternative that is worse than the committee’s suggestion and that is the recommendation of the noble Baroness, which institutes a rule.

Many will agree that one of the prevailing sins of the British Parliament is that we legislate a great deal too much. A great deal of excessive complication has begotten in our society a high level of bureaucracy in all parts of society—in the private sector as well as the public. This is a serious and malignant failing of our present political culture. What would be the effect if, having cleared much of the business from this Chamber into Grand Committee, there were weeks when there was nothing to be done here? Would that not be an encouragement for the other place to send even more torrents of ill considered law to this place? I am sorry if it is offensive to some who served in the other place but the whipping system that has developed there is now so ruthless, and the guillotine system operated with such consistency and a strong hand, that they deprive the other place of giving the thought to crucial legislation that it not only should but would be well equipped to do if the Members were let off the leash.

The proposal would surely create a vacuum for yet more legislation. The average output of Parliament has been 13,000 pages of legislation a year over the past few years. This year it might exceed even that. It is more than is produced by any comparable democracy in the western world by a long way. Therefore, on that ground if no other, I urge us to reject the committee’s proposal for this presumption and to reject absolutely the recommendation of the noble Baroness, which is in line with the Leader’s Group, that we have a rule that only three types of legislation can be retained in this place without agreement.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Cormack]

As an amendment to the Motion in the name of the Chairman of Committees, at the end to insert “, with the exception of paragraphs 10 and 11 (Grand Committees), which shall be referred back to the committee for further consideration”.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I do not wish to take up any more of the House’s time, save to say that I suspect I know which Lobby my late noble friend Lord Newton would be in. He is so much missed, as has been said. Nothing that we do this afternoon takes away any power or influence from the Leader of the House. Every Government are entitled to get their business but not in the process, in any way, directly or indirectly, to trammel the unfettered, self-regulating House of Lords, of which we are all so proud. I hope that noble Lords in all parts of the House will feel able to send a message to the committee, asking it to reflect on this debate and look at this issue again. In the mean time, we take nothing from the Leader but are careful to keep what we have. I beg to test the opinion of the House.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Baroness Hayman]

My Lords—

Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, when my noble friend makes the Statement that he indicates he wishes to make, I wonder if he could possibly indicate to your Lordships which provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill prevented it from being a money Bill.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I noticed that when my noble and learned friend made his point a second or two ago, my noble friend on the Bench shook his head as the reference was made to a Statement. I implore my noble friend the Leader of the House to make a detailed Statement, because the relationship between the two Houses is fundamental to the working of our constitution. There is a fear among many Members on this side of the House that there is an overassertion of privilege, and that there may be reasons behind that. Therefore, it is important that this House has a proper opportunity to debate these issues at an early date.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, apart from the question of the rights and conventions, there may also be a question of communication. The Reasons Committee of the House of Commons could perhaps be a little more forthcoming as to precisely why it feels that it is important to exercise privilege. It is not an absolute requirement. Perhaps it might be possible—without in any way encroaching on the rights of the other place—to explore whether a little more full communication might be possible, particularly in these areas of contention.

House of Lords: Scottish Referendum

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there were a number of questions there. The noble Lord is right that it would have profound constitutional implications for the United Kingdom if there were to be a referendum result in Scotland in favour of breaking up the United Kingdom. However, as I said in my Answer, we can proceed only on the current constitutional framework. If there is a Scottish referendum, I for one—and, I am sure, the noble Lord for another—will campaign in favour of retaining the United Kingdom. The Government of course considered the case for a referendum on the future of the House of Lords. However, given that all three manifestos in the most recent election were remarkably similar on reform of the House, we feel that people's views have already been taken into account.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the manifestos were rather different. However, does my noble friend agree that those of us who are concerned about the future of the United Kingdom must not take the people of Scotland for granted and must not appear to patronise them? To anticipate the results of the Scottish referendum would seem to do precisely that. Therefore, is there not the strongest possible case for getting the issue decided before we turn to House of Lords reform?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, of course we must neither patronise nor anticipate. On the other hand, normal work should not come to a halt because of a possible referendum. That is why we are carrying on with our stated proposal for reform of the second Chamber.

Energy: Tariffs

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, before my noble friend pursues this attractive alternative career, could he follow the advice of the noble Lord opposite when he is thinking of numeracy and have regard to onshore wind, which produces unpredictable amounts of energy at enormous cost and where the Government can save a very great deal of money?

[Lord Marland]

The noble Lord is right. We are considering the renewables obligation certificate that we are providing for onshore wind. We have finished our consultation and will announce and publish the results of our thinking on it on or before 9 February. I therefore ask the noble Lord to hold his breath until that date.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

But does my noble friend still hold to the view that an elected House would be more expensive than the present House? That being the case, and bearing in mind the current financial straits that the country is in, is it really a good use of public money to have a highly expensive elected House when, at the moment, we have a highly effective House that is capable of being reformed without being elected?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no doubt that this is an effective House and a very good value House and therefore I hold to a view that I have made public in the past: that a reformed House, directly elected and with fully salaried Members, would cost more than the current House. However, it would have a legitimacy, and a power and authority, which this House does not have. I remind the House, as I have done many times, that at the last general election all three main parties carried a commitment in their manifestos to reform this House.

Planning: Naseby Wind Farm

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I merely thank my noble friend for adding to the history lesson which we have all much enjoyed.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, my noble friend said that the inspector makes a decision on behalf of the Secretary of State. Can that really be right? Does not the inspector make a recommendation and the Secretary of State makes the ultimate decision?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I understand it, the initial recommendation by the planning inspector is made on behalf of the Secretary of State. If that is incorrect, I will come back to the noble Lord.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, during the past 10 years, I have been told by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and Lord Falconer of Thoroton, and Jack Straw in another place, that in the next Session there would be a House of Lords reform Bill. So, for the definitive answer, we shall have to wait for the appearance of Her Majesty at the State Opening of Parliament.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, in the spirit of Christmas and the season of good will to all men, will my noble friend arrange for the Deputy Prime Minister to imbibe some of the love and respect for this House that I have imbibed in the year that I have been here, and therefore arrange as a Christmas gift for the Deputy Prime Minister a tutorial with the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield, so that he can put away his childish things and stop regurgitating sixth-form essays?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I really do not think that that is the way to impress either the Prime Minister or his Deputy.

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, of the many Motions that I have moved in the House, I would have thought that this one would be almost entirely self-explanatory. The House will remember that last July both Houses of Parliament agreed to the creation of a Joint Committee of both Houses to examine the Government’s draft Bill on the future reform of the House of Lords. In that Motion, the Joint Committee was due to report by March 2012. At that time, a number of questions were raised about whether the Joint Committee would be able to report in that time, and I indicated that if it wished to have an extension it would be able to ask for one. A few weeks ago, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, the chairman of the Joint Committee, wrote to me and indicated that it would need some more time and suggested the date of 27 March. All this Motion does is extend the time available to the Joint Committee by about a month to take us to 27 March 2012. I hope that that is a sufficient explanation of the Motion before us.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, what is the point of all this if the Deputy Prime Minister tells the world that he intends to force through legislation, invoking the Parliament Act, regardless of what the committee might say? We had a contempt of Parliament committed yesterday and I would be grateful if my noble friend would indicate that the committee will indeed report properly, that its report will be debated and that no one, least of all someone who wants to treat the constitution as his own personal plaything, should be allowed to usurp the functions of a committee of two Houses.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I might have expected my noble friend to speak, but I think he is being unnecessarily intemperate. It may be a surprise to him to hear that what the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday was not new at all. He had said it once or twice before. In fact, I said something similar last June in this House. It is surprising how quickly all these things are forgotten. I said:

“Therefore our intention is to introduce a Bill next year and to hold the first elections to the reformed House in May 2015”.—[Official Report, 21/6/11; col. 1155.]

The Deputy Prime Minister yesterday was simply following my lead. In the light of that, I do not think there is anything too much to worry about, although, of course, there is a process before a Queen’s Speech is brought to this House. However, the really important thing that my noble friend asked about was whether the report of the Joint Committee would be taken seriously. I can say unequivocally that it will be taken most seriously.

Legislation

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords—

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe.