Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2023

Lord Caine Excerpts

Thursday 26th October 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Regulations laid before the House on 2 October be approved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, before I turn to the regulations, I am very conscious that this week marks the 30th anniversary of the Shankhill bombing, while next week sees the 30th anniversary of the Greysteel massacre, both heinous acts of terrorism for which there was never any justification whatever. In total, October 1993 saw 27 people killed in Northern Ireland as a result of the security situation, the highest number for any month since the 1970s, and the thoughts of the whole House will be with the victims and survivors of those atrocities. This also serves to remind us of how far we have come in the 30 years since the Downing Street declaration and the 25 years since the Belfast agreement, and how we can never tolerate any slipping back to the dark days of the past.

Turning to the regulations, the Government are, as I have stated on many occasions in this House, deeply committed to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement of 1998, and our priority is to see the return of locally elected, accountable and effective devolved government, which is and will remain the right way for Northern Ireland to be governed within our United Kingdom. In the continued absence of devolved government, the UK Government are committed to acting in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland to ensure that public appointments are maintained until such time as an Executive are restored. We all hope that that can be achieved at the earliest opportunity.

Primary legislation was brought forward in December last year, which, among other measures, addressed the need for urgent public appointments to be made to two bodies. The 2022 Act also provided for the Secretary of State to add to that list, by way of regulations, further urgent and necessary appointments that may arise during the continued absence of an Executive. In July of this year, further legislative action was taken to bring forward a statutory instrument which added a further 12 specified offices to the list under Section 6 of the 2022 Act.

Unfortunately, as we are well aware, the Executive have still not reformed. Therefore, following a request from the Executive Office in Northern Ireland and a further request from the Department of Justice in relation to senior appointments to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, a second statutory instrument was brought forward which includes a further list of specified offices which have been identified by the Executive Office as urgent and critical.

The instrument adds to the list in Section 6 of the executive formation Act, enabling the Secretary of State to exercise the appointment functions of a Northern Ireland Minister in relation to the offices, and will allow for appointments to be made to these bodies which will continue to safeguard the quality and delivery of public services within Northern Ireland—and of course these offices will include a new chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

These are important offices, and the exercise of appointment functions in the coming months is critical for the continuance of good governance in Northern Ireland. I therefore beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Lord Caine Excerpts

2nd reading & Committee negatived & 3rd reading
Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, before I begin my comments on the Bill itself, I once again place on record my gratitude to your Lordships for considering this important Bill on a heavily truncated timetable.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I set out the budget allocations for each Northern Ireland department for 2023-24 in a Written Statement, which I placed before your Lordships’ House on 27 April. All this Bill does is put those allocations on a statutory footing; it does not change the numbers. I do not propose to repeat the contents of that Written Statement, which sets out the respective departmental allocations. Those budget allocations, as with the 2022-23 Northern Ireland budget, were developed as a result of extensive and sustained engagement with the Northern Ireland Civil Service.

The Bill will mean that Northern Ireland departments have a total available resource budget of £14.2 billion and a capital budget of £2.2 billion. This includes the Northern Ireland Executive block grant set at the spending review in 2021 and through the subsequent operation of the Barnett formula and income from regional rates. I emphasise that the sum available for this budget would have been the same provided to an Executive for 2023-24 if an Executive were in place.

Of course, it is the Government’s clear wish that these matters were being dealt with by a fully functioning Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, operating in accordance with the 1998 Belfast agreement, and we are working tirelessly to bring that about. However, in the absence of an Executive, it is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland departments now to make the specific spending decisions to ensure that they live within the budget limits as set out in this Bill. I recognise that this is not easy and will require difficult decisions.

Noble Lords will remember that the UK Government inherited a significant prospective overspend in 2022-23, to the sum of £660 million, and a reserve claim of £297 million was provided to balance last year’s budget. With agreement from my right honourable friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, flexibility has been granted on the repayment of that reserve claim. This will provide some protection to front-line public services in Northern Ireland from having to take the most severe reductions.

With the leave of the House, I will speak to the clauses—I apologise that these are somewhat technical and legalistic in nature. Clauses 1 and 2 authorise the use of resources by Northern Ireland departments and other specified public bodies, amounting to £27,403,514,000 in the year ending 31 March 2024. In short, these clauses authorise the use of resources to that amount by departments and other specified public bodies for the purposes set out in Part 2 of the schedule estimate.

Clauses 3 and 4 authorise the Northern Ireland Department of Finance to issue out of the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland the sum of £22,790,893,000 for the year ending 31 March 2024, and the use of that sum to finance the expenditure that departments will need cash to fund. In short, these clauses allow the Department of Finance to allocate actual cash.

Clause 5 authorises the temporary borrowing by the Northern Ireland Department of Finance of £11,395,447,000—approximately half the sum covered by Clause 3. This is a normal safeguard against the possibility of a temporary deficiency arising in the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland, and any such borrowing is to be repaid by 31 March 2024.

Clause 6 authorises the use of income by Northern Ireland departments and other specified public bodies from the sources specified in Part 3 of the schedule estimate, for the purposes specified in Part 2 of the schedule estimate, in the year ending 31 March 2024.

Clause 7 provides for the authorisations and limits in the Bill to have the same effect as if they were contained in a budget Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It also modifies references in other pieces of legislation to the Northern Ireland estimates that would normally form part of the Assembly’s supply process.

Clauses 8 and 9 are self-explanatory, in that they deal with matters such as interpretation and the Short Title.

The schedule to the Bill sets out the estimates for each Northern Ireland department—that is, the amount of money authorised for use, the purposes for which it can be spent and other sources of income from which it can draw. For each department, Part 1 of the schedule estimate sets out the amount of resources authorised for use by each Northern Ireland department and other public bodies, and the sums of money granted to each Northern Ireland department and other bodies, for the year ending 31 March 2024. Part 2 of the schedule estimate sets out the purposes for which resources and money can be used by each Northern Ireland department and other bodies for the year ending 31 March 2024. Finally, Part 3 of the estimate sets out the sources from which income can be used by each Northern Ireland department and other body for the year ending 31 March 2024. I apologise again for the technical and legalistic nature of those clauses.

Before I conclude, I make a short statement on legislative consent. Clearly, we have been unable to secure a legislative consent Motion from the Northern Ireland Assembly, given that it is currently not sitting. Of course, if it were sitting, we would not have needed the Bill at all. However, the continued absence of the Assembly and the Executive means that we have been left with no other option but to take action here in the United Kingdom Parliament.

I hope I have provided your Lordships’ House with sufficient detail on the background to the Bill, the necessity for it and the intended effect of each provision within it. I commend it to the House. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful, as ever, to all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate on the budget. In particular, I acknowledge the kind words of the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme. To continue his “The Godfather” analogy, I set out the budget provisions today and made the DUP an offer that it certainly has refused.

At the outset, picking up on the words of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen—for whom, as I have said many times, I have a huge respect—and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, and others who have spoken about the restoration of the Stormont institutions, there is nothing I would like more than to stand at this Dispatch Box and announce the restoration of the institutions and a fully functioning Executive and Assembly. I am a firm supporter of the 1998 agreement, as are His Majesty’s Government. As I said at the outset, we are working tirelessly to try to bring about that situation. I am not in a position, as noble Lords will understand, to give a commentary on progress. My right honourable friend said earlier in the week that some significant progress has been made. Noble Lords behind me have pointed out the issues around the Windsor Framework that still need to be resolved before they feel confident to go back into an Executive. Just to be clear, His Majesty’s Government never felt that they were justified in pulling out of the institutions in the first place—and before any of them stand up, my comments would apply equally to the actions of Sinn Féin between 2017 and 2020. We believe the right place for the Northern Ireland parties is within the Executive running local services for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland.

My right honourable friend has made some progress. In response to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, I can assure her that we are not talking to just one political party in Northern Ireland. Shortly before the Summer Recess, I spent a day with all five major parties in Northern Ireland, and my right honourable friend is in discussions with all of them constantly and will continue to be so. However, she will understand that one party is having difficulty going back into the institutions, and therefore it is right that we seek to look at and address its concerns.

I will not go into the details on the Windsor Framework, as many noble Lords here were present for the very long debate held in Grand Committee on Monday, where my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon set out extensively and clearly the Government’s position. To reiterate briefly, we believe that the Windsor Framework provides the basis for the restoration of the institutions, but we will continue to work through these issues with the hope of an early resolution.

In the absence of that, a number of noble Lords raised the role of the United Kingdom Government, including the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Bruce of Bennachie, and the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, pointed out, we have given powers to civil servants to take certain decisions in the public interest in Northern Ireland essentially to keep public services moving. As I said when I introduced the legislation—the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act and the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act—this is not intended for the long term. These are not sustainable measures for the government of Northern Ireland. The priority has to be to get the institutions back. In the event that that is not possible, we will obviously have to look at what further interventions might need to take place from the United Kingdom Government consistent with our position as the sovereign Government within Northern Ireland. So we do not rule that out, but our priority has to be to work to get the institutions up and running.

A number of noble Lords referred to the allocation of funding in the budget. I am the first to acknowledge to your Lordships that this is a difficult situation and a difficult budget, as noble Lords have pointed out. Unfortunately, it is a reflection of the reality in which we find ourselves, or which the Government found themselves in in October last year when Northern Ireland Ministers vacated their departments under the rules. They left office, and we had to start working with the Northern Ireland Civil Service on the figures and initially uncovered a £660 million black hole in the finances. So we have been working very closely and in tandem with the Northern Ireland Civil Service in order to address that situation. I am the first to admit that it is challenging, and I pay tribute to the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the heads of the Northern Ireland departments for the work that they have done with my officials in the Northern Ireland Office to try to establish a basis for putting Northern Ireland’s finances on a sustainable and longer-term footing.

A number of noble Lords referred to individual departments and programmes within individual departments. I am happy to write to noble Lords on that. I do not intend to go into the details of each programme, not least because of time but also because, while the Government have set out the allocations within the budget, within each department it is then for the Permanent Secretaries and officials, absent of political direction from Ministers, to determine the individual allocations internally. The Government have, under the current legislation, no powers to direct or control civil servants within departments on the spending of money and the allocations for individual programmes. However, I will just pick up briefly on the points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who made a very good and powerful pitch for his local hospital in Fermanagh. I am aware of the difficulties, of course, but it is for the Department of Health to allocate funding from its budget of £7.3 billion. We have no powers to direct it, but I acknowledge that he makes a very powerful case.

What I would challenge is the assertion made by a number of noble Lords on the DUP and Opposition Benches that Northern Ireland has suffered from chronic underfunding over a number of years. I remind the House that public spending per capita in Northern Ireland is some 20% higher than the UK average. The settlement in the 2021 spending review was the most generous since the restoration of devolution in 1998-99.

There have been numerous occasions, to which I can testify, when—to follow the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen—the Treasury has recognised the exceptional circumstances of Northern Ireland. In the 2014 Stormont House agreement, with which I was involved, there was an additional £2 billion of extra spending power for the Northern Ireland Executive. There was an extra half a billion in the fresh start agreement in 2015, an extra £1 billion in the confidence and supply agreement, and more money—I think over £2 billion—in New Decade, New Approach. The Government have recognised the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland and I reject the assertion that it has somehow been starved of cash since 2010.

However, I listened with interest, as always, to the noble Lords on the DUP Benches—echoed, to some extent, by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy—about the reform of the Barnett funding formula. Following our last budget debate some months ago, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and his colleague the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, came to see me. We are, as a Government, open to sensible suggestions and discussions around funding. However, I would point out, as noble Lords have, that in respect of the funding reforms in Wales following the Holtham commission, that was a conversation between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government—not a conversation between the UK Government and just one party in Northern Ireland.

These matters are, as has been acknowledged, principally for His Majesty’s Treasury. They would normally take place from Government to devolved Administration. As other noble Lords have pointed out, the negotiations over the Holtham commission took some seven years to resolve. Even if there were a case for reform, and that reform were agreed, it would not necessarily be an overnight fix for the problems or issues we are dealing with in the budget today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, referred to revenue raising. I point out that it was his noble friend Lord Hain who was the first, I think, to put water charges on the table back in 2006-7, before the restoration of the Executive in 2007 following the St Andrews agreement. The position is that the Government have taken the power and directed the Northern Ireland departments to look at revenue raising or potential revenue raising measures. Those departments reported to the Government some weeks ago. We are now looking, in the absence of an Executive, at directing the departments to consult on some of the options they have presented to us. However, we are not in a position to implement any of those recommendations; we do not have the powers. The purpose of the exercise is to present a range of options for an incoming Executive to examine once devolution has been restored. It is clear that, if the Northern Ireland budget is to be put on a sustainable footing, there will have to be a combination—obviously—of difficult spending decisions and some revenue raising.

I am conscious of time. I listened, as always, with enormous interest and respect to my mentor on many of these matters, my noble friend Lord Lexden, who reminded me of the role of two heroes of mine: Bonar Law and Stanley Baldwin in the 1920s in respect of Northern Ireland. I am tempted to add a third great unionist Prime Minister, Sir James Craig, who was instrumental in the 1920s and 1930s in establishing the funding settlement for Northern Ireland, which has lasted many decades. My noble friend said he regrets the fact that the word “unionist” is no longer used in my party’s name as much as it was. I can assure him that I have always made it clear that I regard the term “unionist” as being as important, if not more so, in our party’s name as “Conservative”—but that is probably a personal view.

My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme, raised the role of the Irish Government. I assure both of them that, of course, matters regarding the budget are entirely strand 1 issues and internal Northern Ireland and United Kingdom matters. Of course we discuss many issues with the Irish Government, but, in the absence of an Executive looking at the budget, it remains that decisions over the budget are entirely for the United Kingdom Government. There is no formal role for the Irish in that, and rightly so.

My noble friend also referred to the words of the Taoiseach earlier this week in respect of a united Ireland. I echo my right honourable friend the Secretary of State’s comments that they were not necessarily the most helpful in the current context. Noble Lords will know that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is clearly set out in the Belfast agreement, based on the principle of consent. There is no indication whatever that there is anything but a substantial majority for the union and Northern Ireland’s continuing position within it, and I warmly welcome that. This Government’s view is clear: there is no inevitability about a united Ireland, nor is it desirable. The best future for Northern Ireland is within a strong and stable United Kingdom.

I have tried to answer as many points as possible, and I have probably been speaking for slightly longer than I anticipated. If there are any other issues, I am of course happy to take them up outside the Chamber in meetings and correspondence with noble Lords.

Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing Order 44 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Lord Caine Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 44D, 44E, 44F, 44G, 44H and 44J, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 44K.

44K: Giving family members a role in whether immunity should be granted or not would critically undermine the effectiveness of delivering on the principal aim of this legislation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, last week your Lordships sent this legislation back to the other place after agreeing an opposition amendment with a majority of 11 votes. This was overturned the following day by the elected House by a majority of 83. It followed the rejection of an earlier amendment passed by this House with a majority of 92. I fully accept that this House has exercised its legitimate constitutional role by asking the other place to reconsider. It has done so and very decisively answered on both occasions with overwhelming majorities. I therefore respectfully hope that your Lordships now agree to this Bill being passed, over one year and two months since I introduced it.

The legacy Bill introduced to the other place at the start of the Session last year took on a very different form to the Bill before us today. The changes brought about by the Government and extensively influenced by your Lordships over the course of the Bill’s passage mean that the Bill that I hope will receive Royal Assent is a more robust piece of legislation, designed to deliver better outcomes for victims and survivors of the Troubles. The current mechanisms for addressing legacy matters work for only a very small number of people rather than the overwhelming majority and where established criminal justice processes are increasingly unlikely to deliver the outcomes that people desire, particularly in respect of prosecutions. This legislation will provide more information to more people in a shorter timeframe than is possible under current mechanisms.

Should this Bill become law, which I hope it will, it is for the commission that it establishes to build on the framework that the legislation provides by developing, independently of the UK Government, clear structures, guidance and protocols regarding how it will work in practice. However, the new commission will need time to do this. While I recognise that this has been a difficult process, I encourage everybody to give Sir Declan Morgan KC and his team a fair wind, to demonstrate that the commission can deliver effectively for families. The UK Government will provide whatever support that they can in this endeavour while of course respecting the operational independence of the commission, which has been significantly strengthened by your Lordships’ House. I hope that others can do the same. I beg to move.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

It has been a long time—well over a year, as the Minister said—and I continue to say that I do not blame the Government for one second for trying to resolve what is a hugely difficult issue. Of course they were right to do so, but they do not have the answer.

My right honourable friend the new shadow Secretary for Northern Ireland, Hilary Benn—I welcome him to his post and, incidentally, pay tribute to Peter Kyle, who did a great job over a couple of years—said in the Commons last week, quite rightly, that the Government have made changes that all of us welcome, including this House, but it simply is not enough.

The Minister mentioned the Divisions we have had in the last few weeks. Twice, this House—the majorities might not have been huge, but they were majorities nevertheless—has asked the House of Commons to look again at the central controversial issue of the Bill, which is conditional immunity. He is right, of course, that ultimately we have to give way to the elected House, but that does not alter the fact that this is a friendless Bill. In effect, it has no support in Northern Ireland at all. All my experience of Northern Ireland over the years is that, where there is no support for a Bill such as this, from all communities in Northern Ireland, it will not work. There should have been consensus.

The Government should put the Bill on hold—put it on ice, if you like. Wait until there is a restored Assembly and Executive. When we debate other issues affecting Northern Ireland on Thursday, we will perhaps hear that there has been progress on the possibility of restoration. The right place for this to be debated and discussed is Belfast, not London, so put it on hold. If that does not happen, a future Labour Government will undoubtedly repeal this legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful, as always, to those who have spoken. I do not intend to follow the current fashion for making yet another Second Reading speech at this stage of the legislation’s proceedings. I will just pick up one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, when he referred to the role of the Northern Ireland Assembly in all this. He will recall that it was the Northern Ireland Executive, back in 2013, that invited Richard Haass and Meghan O’Sullivan in to try to deal with issues related to past flag parading. Of course, no consensus was forthcoming on that occasion. As I have reminded the House on so many occasions, the reason we ended up dealing with these issues as the UK Government and in Westminster is that after the Stormont House agreement, it was the then First Minister and Deputy First Minister who came to the Secretary of State and said that it was far too difficult for them to do in Stormont and asked us to do it in Westminster.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, asked me about the motivation for the legislation and what it is designed to achieve. I touched on this last week and in my comments in moving this Motion. It is primarily to get more information to victims and survivors of the Troubles about what happened to their loved ones, in a far shorter timeframe than we feel is possible under the current legacy mechanisms. It is about information recovery, where people want to access that information. That is the motivation behind the legislation. It is now incumbent on us to pass the Bill and give Sir Declan Morgan and his team the opportunity to make this a reality and to deliver for victims and survivors of the Troubles.

Motion A agreed.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2023

Lord Caine Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Regulations laid before the House on 10 July be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 7 September.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2023

Lord Caine Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that these draft regulations, which were laid before this House on 10 July, be approved. The Government are committed to the 1998 Belfast agreement and our priority, as always, is to see the return of locally elected, accountable and fully functioning devolved government, which is and will remain the right way for Northern Ireland to be governed. In the absence of devolved government, the UK Government are committed to acting in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland to ensure good governance until an Executive are restored.

In December last year, primary legislation was passed which, among other measures, addressed the need for urgent public appointments to be made to a number of bodies. The initial phase of appointments under that legislation, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022, gave provisions for the Secretary of State to appoint a commissioner for children and young people. It further gave provisions for the Lord Chancellor to make appointments to the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission.

The 2022 Act also included provision for the Secretary of State to add by way of regulations to the list further urgent and necessary appointments that may arise during the continuing absence of a functioning Executive. This statutory instrument therefore includes a further list of specified offices which have been identified by the Executive Office in Northern Ireland as urgent and critical. These were not originally provided for in the Act, as urgent action was not required at that time.

To prepare this instrument, my officials have worked closely with the Northern Ireland Civil Service departments, including the Executive Office, to identify the further critical appointments which have arisen, some of which have already faced difficulties and been unable to exercise their statutory duties and functions, due to the absence of Ministers, one example of this being the Tourism Northern Ireland Board.

This instrument therefore adds to the list in Section 6 of the Executive formation Act, thereby enabling the Secretary of State, as the relevant UK Minister, to exercise a Northern Ireland Minister’s appointments function in relation to the offices listed in Regulation 2(2) of this statutory instrument. These are important offices and the exercise of appointments functions in the coming months is critical for the continuing good governance of Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, start by echoing those sentiments. Obviously, the solution is to get the Stormont Government and the Assembly up and running. In yesterday’s Oral Questions in the other place, this issue was specifically addressed. The Minister there responded to my right honourable friend Hilary Benn, who asked what plans there are and what conversations are being had, by saying that conversations with the DUP are constantly ongoing and that some progress is apparently being made. I hope that the Minister here can echo that positive side of things because the solution rests with getting the democratic institutions back up and running.

I turn to the specifics of the SI. I am sure that it is good practice and an ongoing practice for all relevant departments to do this but, certainly when we see that the specific urgent appointments include the Agricultural Wages Board and the Labour Relations Agency, I just want to be reassured that the practice of consulting properly with stakeholders, in particular with the trade unions concerned in Northern Ireland, is taking place.

With those few comments, I will leave it to the Minister to respond.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Collins of Highbury, for their contributions to this SI debate, which is definitely a record, it being the shortest I have had to deal with since becoming a Northern Ireland Office Minister. I am sorry that some colleagues from Northern Ireland could not be present today.

On the couple of points that were made, I echo entirely both noble Lords’ comments in respect of getting Stormont back up and running at the earliest opportunity. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is right that the current situation is not sustainable and that the arrangements for governing Northern Ireland are not right for the long term. We need to return to a proper, stable, functioning devolved Government, as set out in the 1998 agreement.

As far as progress is concerned, I can say that, yes, progress is being made. We all know the reasons why the Democratic Unionist Party withdrew its Ministers last year. We are working hard. Obviously, we achieved the Windsor Framework in February this year; we are now working hard to clarify and address any outstanding concerns. As my right honourable friend made clear in the other place yesterday, conversations are taking place constantly and are ongoing. I myself held a round of discussions with each of the Northern Ireland political parties shortly before the Summer Recess. The Secretary of State is continuing with that. Obviously, conversations with the Irish Government took place last week at the British-Irish Association conference. We are continuing the dialogue. Naturally, I cannot put a timetable on this, but it is pressing and we need a return as quickly as possible; we are working flat out towards that end.

On the process for making these appointments, the devolved Northern Ireland government departments will continue to run the recruitment processes in accordance with the Commissioner for Public Appointments for Northern Ireland code of practice. In direct response to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that enables consultation with a wide range of partners, but ultimately it is for the department to run the process. We are not interfering in or taking over in that sense. The role of the Secretary of State is simply to substitute for what would normally be done by a Minister in charge of the relevant Northern Ireland department. The process will run in exactly the same way it would if devolution were up and running. The only difference is that the sign-off will not be a Northern Ireland Minister but—unfortunately, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves—the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

It is interesting that a number of the appointments identified in this SI were dealt with by the UK Government four years ago when Sinn Féin was keeping the institutions of the Assembly down between 2017 and 2020. A number of those appointments were made at the time, and they have run their four-year course. We unfortunately find ourselves having to repeat the same exercise. Like the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Collins, I sincerely hope that we do not have to do this again and that we can achieve a situation in which the institutions are fully functioning and up and running, and the Belfast agreement, which we all strongly support, is implemented in full for the good of all the people of Northern Ireland.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Lord Caine Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 20 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 20A and 20B in lieu.

20A: Clause 13, page 11, line 9, at end insert—
“(3A) The Commissioner for Investigations must ensure that each review, whether or not a criminal investigation forms part of the review,”

20B: Clause 13, page 13, line 14, at end insert—
“(2B) If particular questions were included in the request for a review (see section 11(1)), the final report must include—
(a) the ICRIR’s response to those questions, if and to the extent that it has been practicable to respond to them in carrying out the review in accordance with section 13;
(b) for each question to which it has not been practicable to respond, a statement of that outcome.”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move Motion A and will speak also to Motions B and C.

We have debated these issues at great length since this Bill was introduced in your Lordships’ House in July 2022. I will therefore speak briefly to the remaining issues today. I have always been the first to acknowledge the challenging nature of this legislation and how it requires some very difficult and finely balanced political and moral choices. The Government have, however, continued to listen and sought to strengthen the legislation. Since July last year, I alone have had more than 80 meetings on legacy issues, mostly in Northern Ireland, but also in Ireland, the US and of course in your Lordships’ House. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has also had a large number of meetings on these issues.

Motion A1, regarding the conduct of reviews by the commission, raised a number of important issues, and I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, a distinguished former Secretary of State, for the manner in which he has engaged on these matters. This engagement has resulted in a number of key amendments to strengthen this aspect of the Bill. This includes amendments expressly to confirm that the Commissioner for Investigations, when exercising operational control over the conduct of reviews and other functions, must comply with obligations imposed by the Human Rights Act 1998 and to make clear that the independent Commissioner for Investigations will determine whether a criminal investigation should form part of any review. The noble Lord has, therefore, already significantly influenced this Bill during its passage, and I genuinely thank him for that.

Respectfully, however, I would suggest that the content of the noble Lord’s amendments has been extensively addressed by the package of amendments tabled both on Report and subsequently at Commons consideration by the Government. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State tabled two amendments in lieu in the other place to address further the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, through these amendments.

The first of these amendments, Amendment 20A, clarifies that the duty to look into all the circumstances of a death or harmful conduct when carrying out a review applies no less rigorously in a case where the Commissioner for Investigations has decided that a criminal investigation should not take place. Amendment 20B emphasises the importance of the involvement of victims’ families in the review process. It does so by placing the commission under an express obligation to include in its final report answers to any questions posed by family members as part of a request for a review, where it has been practicable to obtain the requested information as part of that review. I should remind the House that both these amendments in lieu were accepted in the other place without the need for a vote.

Turning to Amendment 20D in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, the Government are also unable to accept the addition of a power that would allow the Secretary of State to prescribe standards under subsection (6A) as an alternative to attempting to provide for those standards on the face of the Bill.

The Government consider it vital to safeguard the independence of the commission. This is something that we have worked very hard to do, and to strengthen, during the Bill’s passage, in direct response to a number of points made in your Lordships’ House. In our view, any such power as set out in the noble Lord’s amendment would run directly counter to this objective.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for accepting this intervention and I thank him for his generous remarks earlier. The point that he has not so far made, and which I hope he will acknowledge, is that the amendment says that it would be by affirmative resolution. In other words, it will require proper consideration by both Houses. My concern in the amendment, as I will explain, is that this Bill can be further improved over time in the light of experience and the views of victims’ groups.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, although I think my point stands. Throughout the passage of the Bill—in response to criticisms, when it was brought from the other place, that the Secretary of State had too many powers vested in him—we have sought to divest powers and to strengthen the independence of the commission. Whichever procedure is used in this House, this amendment seems to me to be running in the opposite direction. I also remind the House that the Bill already contains a provision in Clause 35 requiring the Secretary of State to review the performance of the new commission by the end of its third year of operation.

I turn next to the issue of conditional immunity, which I readily accept is the most difficult and challenging element of this legislation, but which, in the view of this Government, is essential if the new processes which the legislation establishes are to have a chance of working. I am grateful as always to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, for his alternative proposal, instead of insisting on the wholesale removal of conditional immunity. Having been passed in your Lordships House by 12 votes, this was decisively overturned in the elected House by 92 votes—far more that the Government’s actual majority in the other place. As I have said, conditional immunity is, in this Government’s view, an important mechanism to help the independent commission to fulfil its functions.

I briefly remind the House that the aim of the Bill is simple and straightforward: to provide more information to more people in a shorter timeframe than is possible under current mechanisms, to establish the facts of what happened to the families who wish for that, and to help society both to remember the past and to look forward to a more genuinely shared future.

I understand that the aim of Amendment 44E in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, is to give family members a role in whether immunity should be granted. In the Government’s considered view, that would critically undermine the effectiveness of these provisions in their principal aim: the recovery of information for families. For example, the “public interest” consideration element in condition D would lead to uncertainty as to the circumstances in which immunity will be granted, undermining the clear and transparent approach that we have sought to develop.

To ensure that the commission can obtain as much information for families as possible, we need to ensure that the right incentives are in place for individuals to come forward and provide that information. The possibility that eligible individuals who co-operate fully with the commission could be prevented from obtaining immunity is highly likely to act as a significant disincentive for individuals to disclose information.

As the House is well aware from our numerous debates over many months, the commission will grant immunity from prosecution only if individuals provide an account that is true to the best of their knowledge and belief. We have developed a more robust test for immunity in which that account must be tested against any information that the commission holds or can access. The commission must, as a result of amendments in your Lordship’s House, take reasonable steps to secure additional information needed to test the truthfulness of an account.

If an individual does not provide a truthful account of their actions that could be passed to families or does not participate in the immunity process at all, immunity will not be granted and that individual will remain liable for prosecution, should the evidence exist. Where prosecution takes place, should a conviction be secured, an individual will not be eligible for the early release scheme under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998—again, as a result of amendments in this House.

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[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly on a very sad day. There is no Minister in His Majesty’s Government who has a better command and understanding of his brief than my noble friend Lord Caine. He is rightly respected and admired in Northern Ireland and, I think, in all parts of your Lordships’ House. He was clearly extremely unhappy about the Bill in its original form. He has clearly tried very hard indeed to improve it, and to some small degree it has been improved. But the speech that really should dominate this debate when it comes to be talked about in the future is the extremely powerful and moving speech of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames.

In my time as the chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the other place, I got to know and love Northern Ireland, and I came to respect a number of people, including the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, but none more than the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who was rightly held in fond affection throughout Northern Ireland, was looked up to, and did so much, particularly with the commission that he and Denis Bradley chaired. What he said today was an eloquent endorsement of the point made from the Opposition Front Bench by a much-respected former Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. He effectively said that this Bill is unimprovable.

I missed some of the debates on the Bill for domestic reasons, which many Members of your Lordships’ House are aware of, but I did speak at the beginning on a number of occasions. Although it has been before your Lordships’ House for over a year, it is still, frankly, an unacceptable Bill, because it does not command any support outside the Government, and quite a number of us on the Conservative Benches in both Houses are very unhappy about it.

There was a degree of impeccable logic in the speech of my noble friend Lord Hailsham. There is a case for a statute of limitations; it is a clear, unambiguous answer. It is equally clear—the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, recognised this in his speech—that that would not command support either at the moment.

It is incumbent upon the Government, in view of the widespread concern, anxiety and deep unhappiness, to pause this Bill. We have a new Session of Parliament opening on 7 November, just a little over two months ahead. We have a fairly frenetic week this week and next week, and a few days after, and then we break for the so-called Conference Recess. We come back for about 10 days. There will be no further opportunity for detailed examination of this Bill, and we cannot play indefinite ping-pong. I am one of those who is frequently on record as saying that of course the will of the other place, as the elected House, must prevail in the end.

It would be doing a service, to the people of Northern Ireland in particular, to pause on this. However, one service deserves another, and I revert to a point I made during Questions earlier this afternoon. It is incumbent upon political leaders in Northern Ireland to come together and have an Assembly and an Executive, because the ultimate verdict on the Bill should be given in Northern Ireland itself after a close re-examination of all the alternatives, including a statute of limitations. This is not a Bill that should go on to the statute book in the fag end of this Session. With every possible tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, and I genuinely mean what I said, I beg him to have urgent conversations with the Secretary of State and to press the pause button.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am, as ever, extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments. I will attempt to be very brief. I had not planned to make a long wind-up speech. I will reply to just one or two points, if I may.

In his remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, referred to the long history of attempts to deal with legacy issues. In 1998, it was, of course, put into the “too difficult” drawer. There have been subsequent attempts, none of which have come to a successful resolution. I refer to the valiant efforts of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and his work with Denis Bradley. As noble Lords know, I was involved in the 2014 Stormont House agreement which, despite all of our best efforts, never managed to make it on to the statute book, and the level of consensus that we thought we had achieved at the time very quickly evaporated. There have been many attempts and many failures around legacy over the years.

This legislation, as I made clear in my opening remarks, sets out a different approach. The overall objective is very straightforward. It is to try to get for victims and survivors of the Troubles more information about what happened to loved ones in a far shorter time than is possible under existing mechanisms in a context in which, unfortunately for many, the prospect of prosecutions and convictions is going to be vanishingly rare.

I acknowledged as far back as Second Reading that I totally understand and acknowledge the feelings of many victims and survivors. I have met so many over the years, especially over the course of the past year, and for many the emotion, grief and anguish are as raw today as they were whenever the particular incident that caused their loved ones to be lost actually occurred. I referred in my Second Reading speech last November to my friend Ian Gow. Only last week, I dug out the letter that Ian sent to me on 4 June 1990, looking forward to lunch in the Strangers’ Dining Room on 11 June, just a matter of weeks before he was brutally murdered by the Provisional IRA—so I am acutely aware of the victims of terrorism.

However, I say to noble Lords that, if we are to pause this Bill or to refer it to the Assembly, all we are really doing is setting ourselves up for a further significant delay in providing answers to victims and survivors of the Troubles. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, and my noble friend Lord Cormack—I am very grateful for and touched by my noble friend’s generous words towards me—talked about referring this back to the Assembly. I think I said in the past that it was always the assumption, going back to the Haass/O’Sullivan talks in 2013, that these matters would be dealt with in the Assembly after the Stormont House agreement, which largely covered devolved issues. Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson, then Deputy First Minister and First Minister respectively, came to the then Secretary of State and said, “Secretary of State, these issues are all far too difficult for us to deal with in the Assembly. Please could you take all the legislation through Westminster?” That is when we ended up unsuccessfully trying to convert the Stormont House agreement into legislation through this House. So I do not necessarily agree with the noble Lord that the answer is to refer this back to the Assembly.

I dealt in my opening remarks with the Government’s objections to the two amendments; I do not intend to add to those remarks. The subsequent debate has to some extent taken on the nature of another Second Reading debate, in that a number of issues have been raised that have been debated extensively throughout the past year. So, once again, with the greatest respect to the House, I do not intend to go over all those points again; we have debated them exhaustively.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for taking my intervention. In that same article in the Irish News there was a subheading which indicated that the staff to assist Sir Declan would come from the Northern Ireland Office. Can the Minister confirm that this is correct and, if so, how will it address the issue of independence of the commission?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

There are officials from the Northern Ireland Office assisting with the establishment of the body, but the staffing of the body will be entirely for the commission itself; it is not a matter for the Northern Ireland Office. The legislation is not yet passed, so the commission will not formally come into being until next year. All that is happening is that officials from my department are helping with the establishment during that transition phase.

As I said, this has taken on something of a Second Reading debate. We have heard many points rehearsed extensively. Therefore, I conclude by asking noble Lords not to insist on Motions A1 and B1 but instead to agree with the Commons amendments in lieu under Motions A, B and C, and pass this Bill; that is the clear will of the elected House of Commons. I beg to move.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to thank especially the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie, for their fulsome support for my amendment. In the circumstances, I reluctantly beg leave to withdraw Motion A1.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 44 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 44A, 44B and 44C to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons disagreement to Lords Amendment 44.

44A: Clause 18, page 16, line 35, at end insert “, and
(b) any other law that might or would prevent a prosecution of P for an offence from being begun or continued (for example abuse of process—but see paragraph 3 of Schedule (No immunity in certain circumstances)).”

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 119A.

119A: Clause 52, page 41, line 7, leave out paragraph (d)

Police Service of Northern Ireland: Security and Data Protection Breach

Lord Caine Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, the breach of security in the PSNI was absolutely catastrophic for both the morale and the security of all the people who work for it, including civilians. Nearly 4,000 people —40% of police officers who work for the PSNI—have self-referred to its emergency threat management group. It has led to the resignation of the chief constable of Northern Ireland, whom we thank for the service he has put in, and brought particular distress to Catholic officers—but not exclusively, of course—because of possible attacks by republican dissidents. Indeed, it will affect future recruitment of Catholics to the PSNI.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Who is now ministerially responsible for the PSNI in the absence of a Security Minister in Northern Ireland? Will the Secretary of State have a role to play when the internal inquiry is finally concluded? Will he have a role to play in trying to ensure the security of all officers? Finally, can he guarantee any costs arising from the breach, which will be considerable and which the PSNI simply cannot afford?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

I am very grateful to the former Secretary of State for his comments and his questions. Of course, I share his concerns over the security breach that took place. I was in Northern Ireland a day or so after and I was fully briefed at the PSNI headquarters by the then chief constable, who, as the noble Lord reminded the House, handed in his resignation yesterday. I place on record my appreciation for his service and wish him well for the future.

Nobody underestimates the seriousness of the breach. The noble Lord referred to the number of self-referrals to the emergency threat management group, which is absolutely correct. I assure him that the PSNI and His Majesty’s Government take the safety, security and welfare of police officers and support staff as the very highest of priorities. The Government have been keeping in very close contact at official and ministerial level with the PSNI, and we have offered specialist assistance wherever we can.

On the noble Lord’s specific questions, as he rightly alludes to, there is no direct ministerial direction within the Department of Justice. As he knows, policing is a devolved issue and is the responsibility of the Department of Justice. There is no Minister there at the moment. A number of inquiries have been launched, in particular one by the Policing Board, whose results we hope to see in the autumn, possibly as early as October. Any assessment of that report will obviously have to wait until it has reached its conclusions and been published.

As far as finance is concerned, the noble Lord is aware that policing is a devolved issue, as I said. The Department of Justice has a budget of £1.2 billion. There are certain matters for which the Northern Ireland Office is responsible. It is too early to reach conclusions, but we will have to look at the findings of the various inquiries once they report.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for those clarifications to the noble Lord’s questions. Policing in Northern Ireland is always challenging and this very unfortunate release has made it even more so. We have lost the chief constable and replacement will also be challenging. Given what the Minister has said—namely, that policing and justice are devolved, although there is a role for the Northern Ireland Office—does that not reinforce the case for those people who are genuinely concerned about policing, and indeed all other services in Northern Ireland, to recognise that we cannot go on kicking things backwards and forwards between Westminster and a non-existent Assembly or Executive? This is just another case in which those who are blockading the re-establishment of the Assembly are preventing the resolution of the very issues that they are raising concern about in a proper fashion using the devolved Administration that was created for the purpose.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I pay tribute to the work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which does an amazing job across the entire community, policing in a very difficult situation. Irrespective of the data breach, it faces pressures that are unknown to other police forces within the United Kingdom. Obviously, the breach has caused great anxiety. In respect of the thrust of the noble Lord’s questions, he is absolutely right: we need an Executive back in Northern Ireland as quickly as possible. We are doing everything we can to bring that about; that will obviously include the appointment of a Justice Minister within the department who could give political direction.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

As well as questions for the chief constable, who has rightly resigned given the series of gaffes and debacles that have happened under his leadership of the PSNI, are there not questions for the Policing Board of Northern Ireland, the body that holds the police to account directly, given the reports that members of the Policing Board, which is supposed to be completely independent of operational matters, tried to direct the chief constable and how he should behave in certain respects? In relation to the financial issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, will the Minister give a guarantee that ordinary people in Northern Ireland will not suffer as a result of the money that will be diverted into clearing up this mess of data leaks?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questions, as always. He will be aware that the Policing Board itself has asked the Department of Justice to undertake an inquiry into its activities; we should await the outcome of that. On funding, I reiterate that funding is primarily a matter for the devolved Administration out of the £1.2 billion that has been allocated to the Department of Justice. We will obviously have to look again at the various reports and investigations, and the conclusions that they come to.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, given the problems raised by my noble friend Lord Murphy, it is doubly unfortunate that Northern Ireland is now left without a chief constable. Can the Minister say something about the timeline for the appointment of any new chief constable, since that will obviously affect the questions raised about the occurrences we have been faced with? Secondly, can he say whether that will be exclusively a matter for the Policing Board, or will it be in any way affected by the absence of an Executive and a Justice Minister?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the former Secretary of State for his questions. He will understand that the timeline is entirely a matter for the Policing Board, which appoints the chief constable. I am sure that it will wish to seek a resolution for this issue very quickly. It is important that the PSNI has strong leadership restored as quickly as possible, but that is entirely a matter for the Policing Board. It is within its power to appoint an interim chief constable while the formal recruitment process is ongoing, but that is its own issue. On the lack of a Justice Minister, in the unfortunate circumstance that the appointment be made before the Executive is re-established, we would have to take powers for His Majesty’s Government to ratify any appointment that would normally be ratified by the Justice Minister. That happened back in 2019, when the outgoing chief constable was appointed and there was no Executive and Assembly functioning.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, could I revert to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce? Would my noble friend, for whom we all have the utmost respect, discuss with the Secretary of State the calling together of the leaders of all the parties in Northern Ireland yet again—I know it has been done before—because it is essential that the Executive are re-established? It is essential that the people of Northern Ireland do not continue to be let down by the failure of their elected politicians.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I am not sure whether it is in order to refer to people sitting outside the Chamber, but my right honourable friend the Secretary of State might well have heard my noble friend’s question direct. I completely agree with my noble friend that the imperative is to restore the Executive and to get the institutions established by the Belfast agreement fully functioning, up and running, at the earliest opportunity. I can assure my noble friend that the Secretary of State and the entire ministerial team are focused on that outcome and that my right honourable friend has been having a number of discussions over the summer with the political parties towards resolving the issues that are preventing the re-formation of the Executive.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Lord Caine Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Bill be now read a third time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, before we begin Third Reading, I will make a statement on legislative consent.

The Government remain committed to delivering better outcomes for those most affected by the Troubles by providing more information in a more timely manner to more people than is possible under current mechanisms. We have, however, been unable to secure legislative consent from the Northern Ireland Assembly, which is of course not sitting currently. It is important to note that the Government are working tirelessly to see the return of effective, locally elected and accountable devolved government, which is the best way for Northern Ireland to be governed. However, I also acknowledge the possibility —if I can put it that way—that, even if an Assembly were sitting, it may have chosen not to provide legislative consent in this case.

The Government have also not secured legislative consent from the Scottish Government. We are therefore, regrettably, proceeding without consent, as this legislation requires a UK-wide approach. As the Government, we must make difficult and realistic decisions about how we can best deliver for families in Northern Ireland. I reassure noble Lords across the House that the Government will continue to engage with all Northern Ireland parties and the Scottish Government on this matter.

Clause 42: Tort, delict and fatal accident actions

Amendment 1

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

1: Clause 42, page 36, line 4, at end insert—
“(8A) This section does not apply to a relevant Troubles-related civil action if, or to the extent that, section (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation)(1) applies to the action (prohibition of civil claims alleging invalidity of interim custody orders).”Member’s explanatory statement
This provides that Clause 42 does not apply to proceedings to which subsection (1) of Clause (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation) applies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I committed to tabling an amendment at Third Reading in response to widespread concerns raised by the House over the 2020 Supreme Court ruling concerning the validity of interim custody orders made under Troubles-era internment legislation. We debated these issues at length during the amending stages, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and my noble friend Lord Godson for raising these matters and for the constructive manner in which they engaged on the amendments that I tabled late last week.

To be clear, it has always been the Government’s understanding that interim custody orders, made by Ministers of the Crown under powers conferred on the Secretary of State, were perfectly valid. To restore clarity around the legal position and ensure that no one is inappropriately advantaged by a different interpretation of the law on a technicality, I have tabled amendments that retrospectively validate all interim custody orders made under Article 4 of the Detention of Terrorists (Northern Ireland) Order 1972, as well as paragraph 11 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973. This has the effect of confirming that a person’s detention under an interim custody order was not unlawful simply because it had been made by a junior Minister rather than by the Secretary of State personally, as was always the understanding of successive Governments.

The amendments would also prohibit certain types of legal proceedings, including civil cases, applications for compensation as a result of miscarriages of justice, and appeals against conviction which rely on the 2020 ruling from being brought or continued. To align with other prohibitions in the Bill, the continuation of pending claims and appeals in scope would be prohibited immediately from commencement.

There is a specific exemption in the Bill for certain types of ongoing criminal appeals, where leave to appeal has already been granted or where there has been a referral by the Criminal Cases Review Commission by the time of the Bill’s commencement. Importantly, this exception would not allow for the payment of compensation flowing from the reversal of such convictions. I make it clear that this amendment would not lead to convictions already reversed being reinstated. I hope the House will join me in welcoming the legal clarity that these amendments bring. I beg to move.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for tabling these amendments in response to amendments tabled by me and the noble Lord, Lord Godson, which were supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. I thank the Minister and his officials very much for the constructive way in which they engaged with us to produce this complex amendment in response to our simpler but plainly inadequate amendment. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Butler, who is not in his place. He supported the amendment on the basis of the well-understood Carltona doctrine.

I have also been asked to mention the noble Lord, Lord Howell, who is in the interesting position of being the only living Minister who was in Northern Ireland at the time and directly involved with this and a number of other ICOs. I thank him and many other noble Lords for their help with these amendments. They will do a great deal to restore the Carltona principle to its proper place and it will put right a decision of the Supreme Court which was no doubt reached in good faith but which was, in retrospect, wrongly decided.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister, of which I have given him notice. The first is in relation to the commencement date for the two new clauses. They are described as coming into force two months after Royal Assent. I understand what he says about those extant criminal appeals. It seems that delaying this for two months risks there being some further appeals which will go forward on the rather unfortunate premise that the relevant ICOs were unlawfully entered into. Can he clarify that?

Secondly, the second proposed new clause contains an order-making power, for regulations under Section 55(2), which is consequential on the section and allows a Minister to amend this Act. They are subject to the affirmative procedure, but I am concerned, as the House always is, by powers of this scale. I seek an assurance from the Minister: although I know that the current Secretary of State will not be amending the Act to, in any way, take away with the left hand what it has given with the right, it would be useful to have on record the assurance that the Bill does not intend to amend its provisions in any substantial way, particularly those that are the subject of these amendments.

I welcome these amendments and thank the Government very much for their co-operation.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am as always very grateful to those who have contributed. In direct response to the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I can assure her that the DoJ in Northern Ireland was consulted on these amendments.

I am grateful again to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for the very constructive way in which he has engaged on these matters. With respect to commencement, it is the Government’s intention that this should commence at the same time as the Clause 42 prohibition in the Bill relating to the ending of civil proceedings: that is, two months after Royal Assent, which is the normal commencement date. We believe that a consistent approach is important, particularly when bringing forward an amendment that is about ensuring legal clarity.

The Government believe that there is little or no prospect of compensation claims being hurried through in the two months between Royal Assent and commencement. To give an illustrative example of the pace of such claims, there has to date, to our knowledge, been no payment of compensation to anyone bringing a claim as a direct result of the Supreme Court judgment in 2020; nor are the Government aware of any of these cases being close to awarding compensation. This includes the significant cohort of civil claims in this area, which remain at a relatively early stage.

On the issue of consequential powers raised by the noble Lord and by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in her remarks, the power exists for the new provisions. I assure the House that this is solely for the purpose of consequential amendments and not to be used to alter fundamentally the policy intent of the provisions within the amendments, or their scope in bringing relevant proceedings to an end. It is intended to be very limited indeed.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

2: After Clause 44, insert the following new Clause—
“Interim custody orders: validity
(1) This section applies in relation to the functions conferred by—(a) Article 4(1) of the 1972 Order, and (b) paragraph 11(1) of Schedule 1 to the 1973 Act,(which enabled interim custody orders to be made, and which are referred to in this section as the “order-making functions”).(2) The order-making functions are to be treated as having always been exercisable by authorised Ministers of the Crown (as well as by the Secretary of State).(3) An interim custody order is not to be regarded as having ever been unlawful just because an authorised Minister of the Crown exercised any of the order-making functions in relation to the order.(4) The detention of a person under the authority of an interim custody order is not to be regarded as having ever been unlawful just because an authorised Minister of the Crown exercised any of the order-making functions in relation to the order.(5) Subsections (3) and (4) do not limit the effect of subsection (2).(6) This section and section (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation) apply only in relation to an exercise of any of the order-making functions which was conduct forming part of the Troubles (see, in particular, section 1(2)); and for this purpose any exercise of any of the order-making functions must be assumed to have been conduct forming part of the Troubles unless the contrary is shown.(7) In this section and section (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation)—“1972 Order” means the Detention of Terrorists (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 (S.I. 1972/1632 (N.I. 15));“1973 Act” means the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973;“authorised Minister of the Crown” means a Minister of the Crown authorised to sign interim custody orders—(a) by Article 4(2) of the 1972 Order (in the case of such orders under that Article), or(b) by paragraph 11(2) of Schedule 1 to the 1973 Act (in the case of such orders under that paragraph);“interim custody order” means an interim custody order under—(a) Article 4 of the 1972 Order, or(b) paragraph 11 of Schedule 1 to the 1973 Act;“order-making functions” has the meaning given in subsection (1).”Member’s explanatory statement
This provides for Article 4 of the Detention of Terrorists (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 and the corresponding provision in the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 to be read as having allowed junior Ministers to make interim custody orders (which was understood to be their effect at the time when the powers were in force).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

4: Clause 56, page 48, line 16, at end insert—
“(4A) Where regulations under this Act are subject to made affirmative procedure, the statutory instrument containing them must be laid before Parliament after being made.(4B) Regulations contained in a statutory instrument laid before Parliament under subsection (4A) cease to have effect at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the instrument is made unless, during that period, the instrument is approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.(4C) In calculating the period of 28 days, no account is to be taken of any whole days that fall within a period during which—(a) Parliament is dissolved or prorogued, or(b) either House of Parliament is adjourned for more than four days.(4D) If regulations cease to have effect as a result of subsection (4B), that does not— (a) affect the validity of anything previously done under the regulations, or(b) prevent the making of new regulations.”Member’s explanatory statement
This sets out the made affirmative procedure for Parliamentary scrutiny of regulations under Clause 55 which make provision in consequence of Clause (Interim custody orders: validity) or (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

5: Clause 59, page 53, line 25, at end insert—
“(3A) Sections (Interim custody orders: validity) and (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation) extend to Northern Ireland only.”Member’s explanatory statement
This provides for the two new Clauses in Lord Caine’s name to extend only to Northern Ireland (like the 1972 Order and 1973 Act, to which the new Clauses relate).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

6: Clause 60, page 53, line 31, at end insert—
“(aa) section (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation)(5);”Member’s explanatory statement
This provides for subsection (5) of Clause (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation) to come into force on royal assent (as it relates to the power to make consequential provision which comes into force then).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

9: In the Title, line 6, at end insert “, and to provide for the validity of interim custody orders.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This is consequential on Clauses (Interim custody orders: validity) and (Interim custody orders: prohibition of proceedings and compensation).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Bill do now pass.

Bill passed.

Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Lord Caine Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023.

Relevant document: 44th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, the regulations before your Lordships today seek to update the education curriculum in Northern Ireland to make age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights, covering contraception and access to abortion, a compulsory component of the curriculum in all grant-aided schools in Northern Ireland.

I understand and respect that there will be differing views on this issue. I also recognise the will of this Government to deliver on their statutory obligations. In passing the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, Parliament decided to implement the recommendations made by the 2018 report of CEDAW, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. Section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Act 2019, which passed with a majority in the House of Commons of 232 and one of 145 in your Lordships’ House, places a legal duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW report are implemented in full. This is a specific and unique duty which arose from a vote in Parliament. In implementing this decision, the Government have always sought to ensure that the education provided would be similar to that already provided in England with regard to contraception and abortion, and these regulations do this.

It has been widely reported that there is a problem with how sexual education is being taught in schools in Northern Ireland. This has been highlighted by a number of recent studies, including by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. In its report into relationship and sexuality education in post-primary schools in Northern Ireland, it recommended that a standard level of RSE be introduced throughout all schools in Northern Ireland. That was in June this year. Separately, a survey commissioned in September 2022 by a health charity, Informing Choices NI, highlighted that 78% of MLAs agreed that there should be a standardised curriculum, regardless of a school’s ethos.

I am acutely aware that education is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland—indeed, I am looking at a former Education Minister, in the form of the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme, right now. It has always been the Secretary of State’s and this Government’s preference that the Department of Education in Northern Ireland updates the curriculum. However, with nearly four years having passed since the executive formation Act, adolescents in Northern Ireland are still not receiving comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights. This is why, on 6 June, the Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Chris Heaton-Harris, laid these regulations in Parliament to comply with his statutory duty.

This SI has the following effects. It amends the Education (Northern Ireland) Order 2006, and the Education (Curriculum Minimum Content) Order (Northern Ireland) 2007 for adolescents, to make age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights, covering prevention of early pregnancy and access to abortion, a compulsory component of the curriculum. It places a duty on the Department of Education to issue guidance by 1 January 2024 on the content and delivery of the education required to be provided and places a duty on the board of governors and principal of every grant-aided school to have regard to the guidance. Also, the Department of Education is required to publish a report by 1 September 2026 on the implementation of the updated curriculum in grant-aided schools and to lay the report before the Assembly. I say in parenthesis that I trust that there will be an Assembly back in place and fully functioning well before that date.

The Government recognise the sensitivity of this topic and that some parents may wish to teach their child about sex education or to make alternative arrangements to be provided in line with their religious background or their belief about the age that their child or children should access sex education. In recognition of this, this SI also place a duty on the department to make regulations about the circumstances in which a pupil may be withdrawn from education on sexual and reproductive health and rights, or elements of that education, at the request of a parent. This follows the approach taken elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

It is important to state that this Government believe that educating adolescents on issues such as contraception, the legal status of abortion and how relevant services may be accessed should be done in a factual way that does not advocate a particular view on the moral or ethical considerations of abortion or contraception. While schools will be under a duty to teach the updated curriculum within the 2023-24 school year, there will also be a period of implementation and a need for meaningful engagement with parents and teachers. The amendments to the curriculum come into force on 1 July, in preparation for the 2023-24 academic school year. As I said, the duty on the department to issue guidance on the content and delivery of the required education will come into force on 1 January 2024.

Officials in my department, the Northern Ireland Office, will continue to work closely with those in the Department for Education. They have also been engaging with relevant educational bodies to make them aware of the changes to the curriculum. We understand that further engagement with schools, parents and young people is also very important so that they feel reassured about the content of this updated curriculum. However, it is important that children and adolescents are given the correct information so that they can make informed choices.

That summarises the changes that are introduced by these regulations, and I commend them to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. Of course, the Secretary of State is not only empowered to make these regulations but legally obliged to do so. With the regulations, the Secretary of State is making a statutory duty to implement recommendation 86(d) of the report of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. As a result, as the Minister has told us, age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sex and reproductive health and rights, covering the prevention of early pregnancy and access to abortion, will become a compulsory component of the curriculum for adolescents in Northern Ireland.

The Labour Party fully supports these measures. On these Benches, we believe that they are a critical step in ensuring that all parts of the United Kingdom meet their human rights obligations to children in this area. All adolescents deserve age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate relationship and sex education. For too long, relationship and sex education has been unavailable to adolescents in Northern Ireland. In May 2019, Sir John Gillen’s independent review into how the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland deals with serious sexual offence cases made a series of recommendations, including the need to include in the school curriculum for RSE matters such as consent, personal space, boundaries, appropriate behaviour, relationships and sexuality. In April this year, an evaluation by Northern Ireland’s Education and Training Inspectorate found that 44% of schools reported that they were delivering the topic of consent

“to a small extent or not at all”.

Earlier this month, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, as the Minister told us, published a report into its investigations of relationship and sexuality education in post-primary schools, and found that the curriculum on relationship and sexuality education does not meet human rights standards. According to the commission, most schools are not providing

“age appropriate, comprehensive, scientifically accurate education”

on access to abortion services. The investigation also found that some schools actively contribute to the shame and stigma surrounding unplanned pregnancy and abortion by making statements such as abortion is not a means of contraception and those who knowingly engage in casual sex must bear the consequences of their actions. It revealed that some schools are teaching children that homosexuality is wrong.

In England, Scotland and Wales, compulsory RSE that embeds reproductive rights and choices within the curriculum, implementing the CEDAW recommendations, is already in place. The Labour Party welcomes the fact that today’s regulations will help to ensure that the curriculum for children in Northern Ireland meets that standard too. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has welcomed the new regulations and emphasised that implementation and monitoring will be critical. Schools should support and develop their capacity to deliver RSE, and the commission and other expert independent organisations have offered their expertise to help with that.

I have read with care the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report on these regulations and the debate that took place in the Commons yesterday. I of course agree with my honourable friend Peter Kyle and the Minister in that debate about the need to move forward on this matter. However, there are a few matters from this report that particularly concern us. The first is the question of consultation—or lack of it, as the committee says at paragraphs 54 to 56. The Minister needs to clarify that and address it. The second is the use of outside contractors to deliver RSE. How will the Department of Education in Northern Ireland ensure that the delivery of RSE meets the updated curriculum that these regulations set in motion? Thirdly, will the Northern Ireland Office liaise with the Department of Education to provide detailed information about implementation, which the report mentions at paragraph 43? Finally, is the Minister assured that the Department of Education will have the necessary regulations in place regarding parents withdrawing their children from RSE?

With those questions, which I am sure the Minister will be happy to address, we offer him our support.

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[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I will go back and read Hansard. I am sorry; I did not hear that distinction. I thought the noble Lord said something different.

I want to come back to the purpose of these regulations, which is to prevent unplanned pregnancies and promote sexual health and well-being. The only question I want to ask is about the evaluation of this. It is to be evaluated and a report will be presented to the Northern Ireland Assembly, which we all hope will be back up and running by then.

This is an education matter but it is also a health matter. Why was the Department of Health not included in the evaluation? If this legislation has the effect that we hope it will, there should be an increase in health outcomes for young people in Northern Ireland. The Minister may have a technical reason why that was not the case, but will he write to me at some stage about what the process of evaluation will be?

This is far from cavalier: it is a careful and considered piece of legislation and I am happy to support it.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, as ever, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I particularly thank the two main opposition parties for supporting the Government on regulations which earlier today passed the House of Commons by 373 votes to 28. I am also pleased to welcome to our proceedings my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

There is no doubt that the issues before us have generated a good deal of passion and conviction on all sides of the Committee, which I respect completely. I will endeavour to address as briefly as I can some of the points raised. The first question is about why we are doing this and bringing forward the regulations. To some extent, I addressed this in my opening comments regarding the statutory duty under which the Secretary of State is placed by—I gently remind some noble Lords who questioned the legitimacy of the legislation—an Act of the sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom: in this case Section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

For clarity, this is not an amendment or a change to the legislation that was sought or brought forward by the Government at the time. Noble Lords will remember that it was a Back-Bench amendment from a Labour Party Member of the other place, but I remind them that it was passed by resounding majorities in both your Lordships’ House and the other place. We really must respect that.

As noble Lords will recall, that legislation passed almost four years ago, yet little or no progress had been made so far in implementing it, despite extensive discussions between my department and the Department of Education in Northern Ireland, including correspondence last July from the former Secretary of State to the then Education Minister in Stormont. When officials began engaging with the Department of Education in 2019 following the passing of the Executive formation Act, they were assured that the CEDAW recommendations would be implemented—assurances that continued until around February last year. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme, is not in his place because I understand that it was while he was Education Minister in Northern Ireland that his department established a working group to amend the curriculum minimum content order.

In February 2022, the department shifted its position in a briefing paper it provided to the Northern Ireland Office, effectively arguing that the curriculum on RSE should be a matter for schools and teachers to determine —how it should be delivered, which resources to use and what specific topics should be covered. That was in conflict with the Secretary of State’s legal duties, which require that certain elements of RSE, as set out in the CEDAW report, must be compulsory components of the curriculum. Noble Lords will understand that, for a Secretary of State to fail in fulfilling his or her statutory duties is a serious breach of the Ministerial Code, and therefore it was imperative that action had to be taken. That is why these regulations have been introduced now. I contend that, given that it is four years since the legislation was passed in Parliament, we can hardly be accused of rushing.

That, of course, leads to one of the major themes of the debate this afternoon—

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Can I ask the Minister for some clarification? What debate on paragraph 86(d) was held in the other place? Was there a debate?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The amendment to the executive formation Act, as it became, was put down by Stella Creasy MP in the other place, debated and passed by a resounding majority.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I am talking not about abortion but about education.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

It placed a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to introduce CEDAW-compliant regulations in respect of both abortion services and relationships and sexual education.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

For clarification, was education mentioned in the debate?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I do not have the Hansard from June or July 2019 in front of me but the amendment was very clear in the obligations that it placed on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to introduce CEDAW-compliant regulations, which are now enshrined in statute.

I was about to go on to the major themes of the debate, which is why the laying of the regulations was not preceded by a public consultation—a criticism made by many noble Lords this afternoon and contained in the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. A number of factors led the Northern Ireland Office to the conclusion that a public consultation was not required in this instance. First, the CEDAW recommendation—I repeat: under the executive formation Act, the Secretary of State has a duty to implement it—is clear that it requires topics such as abortion and contraception to be compulsory components of the curriculum. That is what these regulations will introduce; no amount of public consultation will change the statutory requirement to comply with CEDAW.

While we are on that, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, asked me about the number of stakeholders that the Northern Ireland Office had discussed. I will just read out one or two of the organisations. There was Love for Life, Common Use, Amnesty, the National Society for the Protection of Young People, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, the Alliance for Choice and Parentkind.

Secondly, my department conducted an equality assessment under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, in consultation with the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, and concluded that there was no need for the NIO to consult publicly as it is actually for the Department for Education to issue the guidance on how these issues are taught in schools and for monitoring and collecting any equality data.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

The Minister has highlighted the various organisations that were consulted as stakeholders. Does the Northern Ireland Office not consider schools and their governing bodies across the board to be required stakeholders? If so, why were they not considered? Is that not a level of disrespect?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

If the noble Baroness will forgive me, I shall address that issue in a second or two.

Thirdly, we were also informed by the Department of Education in a briefing paper that significant stakeholder consultation haud taken place on the RSE Progression Framework that it has been developing with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment over a number of years. This is the document that will be updated and used as guidance issued by the department.

Although the current law and circumstances dictate that it falls to the Northern Ireland Office that CEDAW-compliant RSE is a compulsory part of the curriculum, it is rightly for the Department of Education in Northern Ireland to take that requirement forward. In that context, I can inform noble Lords that the Department of Education has now assured us that it aims to launch a public consultation on both the guidance and the opt-out scheme at the beginning of the 2023-24 academic year—that is, in September—to meet the duty to issue guidance by 1 January 2024.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

In reference to consultation, the court noted that

“the consultation which did take place in the context of the Regulations was limited to the issue of abortion but did not deal specifically with the issue of education on sexual and reproductive health or a strategy to combat gender based stereotypes as set out in paras 86(d) and (f) of the CEDAW Report. However, these paras are not referred to in the 2020 Regulations nor are they contained in the 2021 Directions under challenge. In the event that Regulations or Directions are made in the future to deal with those issues then there will be an opportunity for the Secretary of State”—

not the Department of Education—

“to carry out a consultation”.

Why did he not do it?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his speech but I have addressed the Government’s position in respect of the public consultation.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I read out the judgment of the court, not a speech from me.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s clarification. I set out the rationale behind the Government’s decision not to proceed with the public consultation in advance of the laying of these regulations. I am not sure whether he was listening to me but I made it very clear that the Department of Education in Northern Ireland will now take forward a public consultation on these matters at the start of the next academic year, in September, with a view to meeting the 1 January deadline. I do not think that I could be clearer in my comments on that.

In addition, the Department of Education also aims to make regulations for parents to withdraw their children from the required education by 1 January 2024, thus ensuring that there will be an option for parents to withdraw their children on issues such as abortion and contraception should they so wish. That deals directly with issues raised by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont.

The regulations are not intended to be overly prescriptive—

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Even if parents—

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am sorry; I have been very generous to the noble Lord. He spoke for a long time earlier in the debate. I am conscious that other Grand Committee debates need to take place after this one so, if he will forgive me, out of respect for other colleagues —including my noble friend Lord Johnson, who is sitting patiently—I will continue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, mentioned external providers. I can assure her that my officials are in constant contact with the department and will continue this engagement, although it is principally a matter for the Department of Education in Northern Ireland.

I hope that this gives some reassurance to a number of noble Lords that the views of the public will be properly taken into account before the final guidance is issued by 1 January 2024. I can confirm that that is very much the target for publication.

I will try to be as quick as I can. A number of noble Lords raised issues in relation to the rights of parents and the ECHR. We of course respect and recognise the rights afforded by Article 2 in the first protocol to the ECHR. We assess that the regulations have been drafted in accordance with convention rights. It is the Government’s firm view that it is compatible to inform children of the legal right to an abortion in Northern Ireland and how relevant services may be accessed without advocating a particular view on the moral and ethical considerations. Providing such information would not affect the ability of parents to provide advice and guidance to their children in keeping with their religious and philosophical views, which we all respect, and therefore we are, in our view, also compatible with Articles 9 and 10 of the ECHR.

Noble Lords referred to the slight differences between England and Wales and Northern Ireland throughout the debate. The statutory guidance in England references prevention of early pregnancy and abortion and, as such, is similar to what is required under CEDAW. We believe that the regulations are the most appropriate way of meeting our statutory obligations and what CEDAW requires, while keeping as closely aligned as possible with other parts of the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, referred to the Explanatory Memorandum. He has the advantage of me, in that I do not have a copy in front of me. I will endeavour to provide greater explanation of the Explanatory Memorandum in due course. My understanding is that there will of course be an impact on the department because of the duty to provide guidance, but the exact nature of that impact will not be known until the guidance has been more fully developed and is published.

I have tried, in as brief a time as possible and with respect to colleagues who are coming after me, to deal with a number of points this afternoon. If there are any issues outstanding, I will of course write to any noble Lord who requires further clarification. On that note, I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Lord Caine Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

32: Clause 13, page 11, line 18, at end insert—
“(4A) In particular, the Commissioner for Investigations is to decide whether a criminal investigation is to form part of a review.”Member’s explanatory statement
This makes clear that the Commissioner for Investigations should consider whether there should be a criminal investigation as part of an ICRIR review.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

34: Clause 15, page 13, line 14, at end insert—
“(2A) The final report must include a statement of the manner in which the review was carried out.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the final report to include a statement about the manner in which a review was carried out.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

38: Clause 15, page 14, line 10, leave out from “are” to “and” and insert “consulted”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment replaces existing wording with the new defined term “consulted” which is inserted into subsection (12) by the amendment in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

40: Clause 15, page 14, line 16, leave out “subsections (3) to (5)” and insert “the consultation provisions”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment replaces existing wording with the new defined term “consultation provisions” which is inserted into subsection (12) by the amendment in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

42: Clause 15, page 14, line 18, leave out from “has” to “this” in line 19 and insert “consulted a person,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment replaces existing wording with the new defined term “consulted” which is inserted into subsection (12) by the amendment in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

48: Clause 15, divide Clause 15 into two Clauses, the first (Production of reports on the findings of reviews) to consist of subsections (1) to (2A) and the second (Consultation on reports) to consist of subsections (3) to (12)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would divide Clause 15 into two Clauses.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

49: Clause 16, page 15, line 13, at end insert—
“(5A) If a final report is not published in such a case, the Chief Commissioner must publish the statement of the manner in which the review was carried out that is included in the final report in accordance with section 15(2A).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Chief Commissioner to publish the statement about the manner in which the review was carried out if the final report is not published.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

51: Clause 17, page 15, line 26, leave out from “to” to end of line 27 and insert “—
(a) producing under section 15, and giving and publishing under section 16(2) and (3), the final report on the findings of an excepted review, or(b) publishing under section 16(5A) the statement of the manner in which an excepted review was carried out.(2A) For that purpose an “excepted review” is—”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment expands subsection (2) to delay the production or publication of the final report, or the statement required by section 15(2A), where conduct is referred to a prosecutor.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

60: Clause 18, page 16, line 35, at end insert “, and
(b) any other law that might or would prevent a prosecution of P for an offence from being begun or continued (for example, abuse of process—but see paragraph 3 of Schedule (No immunity in certain circumstances)).”Member’s explanatory statement
This provides that the immunity requests panel can ignore any law that would prevent a prosecution, when the panel is deciding when P’s disclosed conduct would tend to expose P to criminal enforcement action in respect of an offence.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

64: Clause 18, page 17, line 22, after “revoked” insert “, except by a court under section (Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is in consequence of new Clause (Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

67: Clause 19, leave out Clause 19
Member’s explanatory statement
The provision made by Clause 19 is moved to the new Schedule (No immunity in certain circumstances).

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

68: Clause 20, page 18, line 36, leave out subsection (1)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment leaves out subsection (1) as corresponding provision is included in new Schedule (No immunity in certain circumstances) in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

70: Clause 20, page 19, line 19, at end insert—
“(7A) If the Chief Commissioner is unable to exercise some or all of the immunity functions, generally or in particular circumstances, the Chief Commissioner may nominate another person—(a) to temporarily exercise the immunity functions so far as the Chief Commissioner is unable to exercise them, and(b) to be a temporary member of, and to temporarily chair, the immunity requests panel so far as those functions are panel functions.(7B) But the Secretary of State may nominate a person under subsection (7A) if the Chief Commissioner is unable to make a nomination.(7C) A person may not be nominated under subsection (7A) if the person—(a) would be disqualified from appointment as a Commissioner by paragraph 7(2) of Schedule 1 (imprisonment, insolvency or disqualification from being a company director), or(b) does not hold, and has not held, high judicial office (within the meaning of paragraph 7 of Schedule 1).(7D) This Act is to apply to the exercise of immunity functions by a person appointed under subsection (7A) as if the functions were being exercised by the Chief Commissioner.(7E) In this section—“immunity functions” means—(a) the function conferred by subsection (6), and(b) panel functions;“panel functions” means functions of the Chief Commissioner as a member or the chair of the immunity requests panel.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would allow a person to be nominated to act temporarily if the Chief Commissioner is unable to act, whether generally or in particular circumstances (eg. because of a potential conflict of interest), in relation to requests for immunity.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

I beg to move.

Amendments 71 to 74 (to Amendment 70) not moved.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

75: Clause 20, page 19, line 23, leave out paragraphs (b) to (g)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in Lord Caine’s name to leave out subsection (1).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

76: Clause 21, page 20, line 3, at end insert—
“(1A) The ICRIR must take reasonable steps to obtain any information which the Commissioner for Investigations knows or believes is relevant to the question of the truth of P’s account.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the ICRIR to take reasonable steps to obtain information in connection with determining the truth of P’s account (see Clause 18(3)).

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Caine]

84: Clause 22, page 21, line 11, at end insert—
“(3A) For provision about the nomination of a person to act temporarily instead of the Chief Commissioner, see section 20(7A).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in Lord Caine’s name adding subsection (7A) to Clause 20.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

85: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
“Personal statements by persons affected by deaths etc
(1) This section applies in relation to—(a) each review of a death which the ICRIR carries out following a request made under section 9;(b) each review of other harmful conduct which the ICRIR carries out following a request made under section 10;(c) each request for immunity from prosecution that is made under section 18 (whether or not the ICRIR carries out a review following a decision made under section 12(2) or (3), and whether or not the ICRIR has made such a decision).(2) The Chief Commissioner must give an eligible person an opportunity to provide a personal statement to the ICRIR.(3) If an eligible person provides a personal statement, the Chief Commissioner must give that person an opportunity to supplement the statement.(4) In this section “personal statement” means a statement by an eligible person about the way in which, and degree to which, the Troubles-related events have affected and continue to affect—(a) that person, and(b) other relevant persons (if, and to the extent that, the person providing the statement is aware of, and wishes the statement to deal with, the effect on those persons).(5) The definitions in subsection (6) are to be used for the purposes of this section in cases where this section applies—(a) in relation to a review of a death which the ICRIR carries out following a request made under section 9, or(b) in relation to a request for immunity from prosecution that is made under section 18—(i) where the ICRIR carries out a review of a death following a decision made under section 12(2), or(ii) where, if the ICRIR were to carry out a review in connection with the request for immunity, it would be a review of a death following a decision made under section 12(2).(6) In any of those cases—“eligible person” means—(a) each known close family member of the deceased (and Part 1 of Schedule 3 is to apply for the purpose of determining who is a close family member), or(b) if there are no known close family members, each other known family member of the deceased to whom the Chief Commissioner considers it is appropriate to give an opportunity to provide a personal statement;and here “known” means known to the ICRIR by virtue of any of its other functions;“other relevant person” means—(a) a member of the family of the person to whose death the review relates;(b) a member of the family of any other person killed in the relevant event;(c) a person who suffered serious physical or mental harm in the relevant event and has subsequently died;(d) members of the family of a person falling within paragraph (c);“Troubles-related events” means—(a) the death to which the review relates, and(b) the relevant event (which has the same meaning as in section 15(4)).(7) The definitions in subsection (8) are to be used for the purposes of this section in cases where this section applies—(a) in relation to a review of other harmful conduct which the ICRIR carries out following a request made under section 10, or(b) in relation to a request for immunity from prosecution that is made under section 18—(i) where the ICRIR carries out a review of other harmful conduct following a decision made under section 12(3), or(ii) where, if the ICRIR were to carry out a review in connection with the request for immunity, it would be a review of other harmful conduct following a decision made under section 12(3).(8) In any of those cases—“eligible person” means—(a) each known close family member of the injured person (and Part 1 of Schedule 3 is to apply for the purpose of determining who is a close family member), or(b) if there are no known close family members, each other known family member of the injured person to whom the Chief Commissioner considers it is appropriate to give an opportunity to provide a personal statement;and here “injured person” means the person who was caused the physical or mental harm by the other harmful conduct concerned; and “known” means known to the ICRIR by virtue of any of its other functions;“other relevant person” means—(a) a member of the family of any person killed in the relevant event;(b) a person who suffered serious physical or mental harm in the relevant event and has subsequently died;(c) members of the family of a person falling within paragraph (b);“Troubles-related events” means—(a) the other harmful conduct to which the review relates, and(b) the relevant event (which has the same meaning as in section 15(5)).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Chief Commissioner to give individuals affected by a death or other harmful conduct the opportunity to provide personal statements to the ICRIR about the effects of the Troubles-related conduct.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

87: Clause 23, page 21, line 32, leave out from beginning to end of line 38 and insert—
“(2) If the Commissioner for Investigations considers there is evidence that relevant conduct constitutes an offence under the law of Northern Ireland by an individual whose identity is known to the Commissioner, the Commissioner—(a) may refer the conduct to the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland, and(b) if the conduct is referred, must notify that prosecutor of the offence concerned.(2A) If the Commissioner for Investigations considers there is evidence that relevant conduct constitutes an offence under the law of England and Wales by an individual whose identity is known to the Commissioner, the Commissioner—(a) may refer the conduct to the Director of Public Prosecutions (for England and Wales), and(b) if the conduct is referred, must notify that prosecutor of the offence concerned.(2B) If the Commissioner for Investigations considers there is evidence that relevant conduct constitutes an offence under the law of Scotland by an individual whose identity is known to the Commissioner, the Commissioner may—(a) refer the conduct to the Lord Advocate, and(b) notify that prosecutor of the offence concerned.(2C) The Lord Advocate may direct the Commissioner for Investigations to exercise the power of referral and notification in accordance with subsection (2B); and the Commissioner must comply with any direction that is given unless the person concerned has been granted immunity from prosecution under section 18 for the offence concerned.(2D) In any case where the Commissioner for Investigations refers conduct to a prosecutor under this section, the Commissioner—”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would enable the Lord Advocate to require the Commissioner for Investigations to refer relevant conduct to the Lord Advocate.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

89: After Clause 23, insert the following new Clause—
“Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity
(1) If—(a) a person is convicted of an offence under section (False statements: offence),(b) that offence was committed in the course of requesting the ICRIR to grant the person immunity from prosecution under section 18, and(c) the person was granted the immunity from prosecution,the court which sentences the person for the offence must revoke that grant of immunity from prosecution.(2) If—(a) a person is convicted of a terrorist offence or an offence with a terrorist connection, and(b) the person had been granted immunity from prosecution under section 18 before the offence was committed,the court which sentences the person for that offence must revoke every grant of immunity from prosecution under section 18 given to the person before the offence was committed.(3) For the purposes of subsection (2) a person is convicted of “a terrorist offence or an offence with a terrorist connection” if—(a) the person is convicted of an offence by a court in Northern Ireland and either—(i) the offence is listed in Schedule 1A to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, or(ii) the court determines under section 30(2) of that Act that the offence has a terrorist connection;(b) the person is convicted of an offence by a court in England and Wales and either—(i) the offence is listed in Schedule A1 to the Sentencing Code, or(ii) the court determines under section 69 of the Sentencing Code that the offence has a terrorist connection;(c) the person is convicted of an offence by a court in Scotland and either—(i) the offence is listed in Schedule 1A to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, or(ii) section 31 of that Act applies to the offence (offences with a terrorist connection in Scotland).(4) Where—(a) an offence is found to have been committed over a period of two or more days, or at some time during a period of two or more days, and(b) a grant of immunity from prosecution is given at any time during that period,that grant of immunity from prosecution is to be regarded for the purposes of subsection (2) as having been given before the offence was committed.(5) A revocation of immunity under this section—(a) has immediate effect;(b) does not prevent a person making a further request for immunity under section 18 (but see Part 2 of Schedule (No immunity in certain circumstances) for provision about requests that overlap with revoked immunities).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires courts to revoke immunity granted under Clause 18 if a person is subsequently convicted of making a false statement in the course of applying for that immunity (see new clause (False statements: offence) or convicted of a terrorist offence or offence with a terrorist connection.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

90: After Clause 23, insert the following new Clause—
“False statements: offence
(1) A person commits an offence by making a false statement to the ICRIR in connection with any of its functions under sections 18 to 22.(2) For the purposes of this section—(a) a person makes a false statement by—(i) making a statement which the person knows to be false in a material respect, or(ii) recklessly making a statement which is false in a material respect;(b) “making a statement” includes giving an account in connection with a request for immunity under section 18.(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine or both;(b) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;(c) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court or a fine or both;(d) on summary conviction in Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both.(4) Proceedings for an offence under this section may be instituted—(a) in Northern Ireland, only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland;(b) in England and Wales, only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment prohibits (knowingly or recklessly) providing a statement to the ICRIR that is materially false.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

91: Clause 34, page 28, line 12, leave out subsection (3)
Member’s explanatory statement
This would remove the provision that allows reports or statements about criminal investigations to be produced for a limited period after Clause 34 comes into force. It is no longer needed in consequence of the amendment in Lord Caine’s name providing for Clause 34 to come into force on 1 May 2024 (instead of two months after royal assent).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

94: Clause 36, page 28, line 35, leave out “only”
Member’s explanatory statement
This is consequential on the other amendment of Clause 36 in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

98: Clause 38, page 29, line 27, leave out “P” and insert “a person”
Member’s explanatory statement
This removes the use of “P” to refer to a person who is being prosecuted for an offence.

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[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I begin my brief remarks by paying tribute to Lord Brown; he was a great influence on me when I first entered this House and I always enjoyed listening to what he had to say. He was a fine lawyer.

I have looked at the legal arguments put forward by Policy Exchange on this amendment. I cannot say that I understood every word of them, but they looked impressive to me. However, from my experience, the practicalities of the situation indicate that something must be done.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, quite rightly reminded us what the situation was like back in the 1970s. I assure him and your Lordships that, 25 years later when I was doing the same job, it had not changed all that much in terms of signing warrants. When I was the Minister of State in Northern Ireland, I knew that Mo Mowlam, who was Secretary of State at the time, was aware that I was signing these warrants on her behalf. Similarly, three years later when the roles were reversed and I became Secretary of State, I realised that the Minister of State signing those warrants on my behalf was doing so absolutely properly and within the law.

I have no doubt that everybody signing these warrants in Northern Ireland over all these years believed that they were doing the right thing—and I am sure that they were—but there is clearly a problem because of the Supreme Court ruling. I look forward to the Minister telling us how he will change this situation and make things better.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful, as always, to noble Lords who have spoken in this short but very important debate led by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, to whom I am very grateful for the constructive engagement and discussions we have had over the past few days. This has been an excellent debate. I join in the tributes to Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, whose contribution to this House over many years has been immense.

The Government are extremely sympathetic to the aims of this amendment. It aligns with our desired policy aim to reduce pressure on the civil courts in Northern Ireland, which currently have a considerable case load. In our view, it would not be appropriate for the Government to give an opinion on the judgment of the Supreme Court in R v Adams, but we are of the view that this judgment, which was unexpected, has led to a degree of confusion in our law that merits clarification in some way. If I may go slightly further than my brief, when the judgment appeared some of us were—to put it mildly—somewhat baffled by its content.

On the numbers of cases in scope, we are aware of around 300 to 400 civil claims being brought on a similar basis to the Adams case, including those at pre-action stage, with 40 writs filed before First Reading of this Bill. It is therefore likely that a number of Adams-type cases will be allowed to continue in spite of the prohibition on civil claims in Clause 39 of the Bill. We are aware that this amendment has a wider application than just civil damages claims, which are otherwise within the scope of Clause 39, but the numbers of other types of cases in scope are limited.

The Government also understand that the amendment covers applications for compensation for miscarriages of justice under the statutory scheme established by Section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, following the reversal, as a result of the Adams judgment, of convictions for escaping or attempting to escape from internment facilities. The Government anticipate that it is unlikely that many more cases could in theory be brought along these lines; based on the numbers of escapees, this is unlikely to be more than around 30 and could be substantially less.

Claims brought as a result of the Supreme Court judgment in Adams are claims for compensation that are not based on any allegation against the state of mistreatment or misfeasance in public office, as other claims in this area are, but on a technical point regarding the signing of interim custody orders, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, made absolutely clear. At the time of their detention and conviction for escape-related offences, and for decades afterwards, these individuals could not have expected the Supreme Court to find as it did.

The Government have always acted on the understanding that those interim custody orders made by Ministers of the Crown, under powers conferred on the Secretary of State, were perfectly valid on the basis of the well-established and understood Carltona principle. This is a clarification that needs to be made, in our view, to restore legal certainty around this crucially important element of the way in which government works in this country.

I listened with great interest to my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, who is the surviving member of the Northern Ireland Office from 1972 as Minister of State. He gave a very vivid and accurate description of just how difficult life was at the time, and how dangerous and fast-moving the situation was.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, in his description of how the warrant system works in Northern Ireland. As many Members know, I have worked for a number of Secretaries of State, and the signing of warrants is something all of them have taken a huge amount of care over to ensure that they are done properly and within the law.

In response to the noble Baroness, we are not far away from Third Reading, as she will be aware, but I will endeavour to consult with interested parties between now and then.

On this basis, as the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, indicated, I will commit to bringing forward an amendment at Third Reading next week, following consideration by officials and lawyers, that addresses these matters. In return, I ask that the noble Lord and my noble friend Lord Godson withdraw their amendment, subject to the caveat that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, made in his remarks.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this debate, and I am grateful to the Minister for his remarks. I am sure the House is grateful for all those who associated themselves with the comments I made about the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood.

The Minister said with his usual understatement that many were somewhat baffled by the decision of the Supreme Court. The bafflement was widespread, I can assure the House, and the notion that we should wait until another case comes along was never a convincing argument in favour of Parliament not acting to put right this injustice. As the Minister rightly said, Clause 39 of the Bill will not deal with this essential unsatisfactory aspect of the judgment, and there could be many cases arising out of the error made by the Supreme Court.

Of course courts make mistakes from time to time; the whole basis of an appeal from one judgment to another is predicated on the fact that they do. The Supreme Court rarely makes mistakes, but Parliament puts them right when it does. Parliament also makes mistakes, and would then reverse those mistakes. There is nothing in this amendment which shows a lack of respect for the Supreme Court or its decisions in any way.

I look forward very much to meeting the Minister and his officials, to help, I hope, provide an amendment which reflects what is in our amendment—government amendments are always better than amendments put forward by Back-Benchers. Provided it does what this amendment was intended to do, that would be satisfactory.

I need not weary the House any longer at this stage. I have repeated that we will bring back the matter at Third Reading if, sadly, we are unable to find a satisfactory way through. In the meantime, I thank all noble Lords and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

106: Clause 40, page 31, line 32, leave out from “before” to end of line 33 and insert “1 May 2024 unless, on that day, the only part of the inquest that remains to be carried out is the coroner or any jury making or giving the final determination, verdict or findings, or something subsequent to that.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This would require any inquest initiated before the commencement of Clause 40 to be discontinued on the commencement of that Clause, unless the inquest is at its very final stage (the determination, verdict or findings).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

111: Clause 41, page 33, line 18, at end insert—
“(2A) On and after the day on which section 41 of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 comes into force, the Ombudsman—(a) is not to begin any formal investigation of a matter, and(b) is to cease any formal investigation of a matter begun before that day,insofar as the matter relates to conduct forming part of the Troubles.”Member’s explanatory statement
This prevents the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland from beginning, or continuing, to investigate matters that relate to conduct forming part of the Troubles. That power of investigation is in addition to the power to deal with complaints (already covered by Clause 41).

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I look forward to what the Minister has to say. Everything in the Bill, all the time, should be underpinned by reconciliation. Whatever happens regarding memorialisation and history telling, that ultimately should be the final aim.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful as always to those who have contributed to this debate, which was lengthier than some of us had perhaps anticipated. We went over many of these issues extensively in Committee only a few weeks ago. I will therefore try to be as brief as possible and address my remarks in large part to the amendments.

Obviously I am aware that there have been a number of powerful and deeply moving contributions today that reflect the experiences of individual Members of your Lordships’ House who have suffered at the hands of terrorism and violence in Northern Ireland over many decades. I refer in particular to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, who shared some of her personal experiences. The House cannot fail to be moved by some of the remarks and reflections, including also those of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, that we have heard today.

As I have said many times, we are never going to agree on a common narrative about the past in Northern Ireland, but we can seek to put in place structures that will help all in society, including future generations, to have a better understanding of the past, with the overarching aim of enabling people in Northern Ireland to move forward, on which I agree wholeheartedly with the comments of my noble friend Lord Patten of Barnes.

I turn first to the memorialisation strategy, which will seek to build consensus around new structures and initiatives to commemorate those lost during the Troubles and to seek to ensure that the lessons of the past are not forgotten. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, highlighted with his Amendments 114A and 114B that this objective would be fundamentally compromised if it allowed for the glorification of acts of terrorism. I am on record many times in this House as saying that politically-motivated violence on all sides, whether republican or loyalist, was never justified in Northern Ireland, and I agree completely with the words of the noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Weir of Ballyholme, and others on that. The Government will never accept any suggestion that there was, to use the quote, “no alternative”, which is peddled by those with a political motivation to rewrite history in order to denigrate the actions of the state along with the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Armed Forces.

I take on board some of the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. There are of course examples where members of the security forces have fallen short of the highest standards, but I maintain that the vast majority of those who served in Northern Ireland did so with great courage, professionalism and integrity, while defending democracy and the rule of law. Without their service and sacrifice, there would have been no peace process; we owe them an enormous debt of gratitude. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, can be assured that this Government will never accept any moral equivalence between those who defended democracy and the rule of law and those who sought to destroy both.

Having listened to the strength of feeling on this issue, the Government have tabled an amendment to Clause 48, adding an overarching duty that would require the designated persons to have regard to the need to promote

“reconciliation … anti-sectarianism, and … non-recurrence of political and sectarian hostility”.

In the Government’s view, this goes further than the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, in that the overarching duty would apply to all the measures in Part 4, not only to the memorialisation strategy set out in Clause 44. Any attempt to glorify terrorism, or to revise or rewrite history in ways that justify it, would be fundamentally incompatible with this new overarching duty. Non-recurrence speaks to the avoidance of future political violence, which necessarily includes ensuring that no memorialisation activities glorify the commission or preparation of Troubles-related offences. The Government will also ensure that this understanding is reflected in any guidance documents or terms of reference.

Further amendments tabled by the Government commit the Secretary of State to consulting organisations with experience and expertise in promoting reconciliation and anti-sectarianism between communities in Northern Ireland before designating the delivery organisations and, crucially, before responding to each of the

“recommendations made in the memorialisation strategy”.

I hope that the Government’s amendments here address some of the noble Lord’s concerns around glorification, which I know are shared across the House, as has been so vividly set out this evening. Indeed, a core objective of the strategy, along with other measures in Part 4, is to confront the glorification of terrorism.

Amendments 117 and 118 are in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. As I said during Committee, I fully support the sentiment behind these amendments, which seek to ensure that any Troubles-related academic research is suitably diverse and not, as the noble Baroness said, monopolised by a single view. But while she rightly highlighted that funding applications are assessed based on the past record of those applying, that is not the sole criterion used by research councils: for example, research impact, value for money and public engagement are a few of the other criteria used. As such, the wording of this amendment would have little practical effect. Going further, Clause 48 specifically requires that the designated persons, in delivering this work, ensure that a variety of views of the Troubles are taken into account. However, I take on board the noble Baroness’s comments about even-handedness.

On Amendment 118, as I said in Committee, nothing in the provisions of the Bill would preclude research into LGBT experiences during the Troubles, should the academic community feel that there is a particular need. I am sure noble Lords will agree that if we were to debate the inclusion of every theme relating to the Troubles, or themes which occurred during the same period, we would be here for a very long time.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, referred to the clauses that deal with the role of women. There are international precedents and standards affirming the important role of women in the resolution of conflicts, in peace negotiations and in reconstruction. I visited an exhibition dealing with those issues at Ulster Museum only a couple of weeks ago. I would therefore respectfully maintain our position that these amendments are not required, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness, along with Jeff Dudgeon and the Malone House Group in Northern Ireland, for their ongoing constructive engagement on these matters. I think the noble Baroness will be aware that I had a useful meeting with the Malone House Group in the last two weeks.

Touching briefly on the advisory forum under Clause 49, I think noble Lords are understandably concerned with ensuring that the advisory panel overseeing the measures in Part 4 is not politically biased in its composition. As I said in Committee, I respectfully suggest that this amendment is not expressly necessary. Clause 49(2)(b) already states that, in establishing an advisory forum, due regard must be given to the need for the forum to have a balance in terms of members who are associated with different parts of the community in Northern Ireland—“different communities” being defined in the Bill as those which have differing views on the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

Lastly, Amendment 118A in the name of my noble friend Lord Godson would enshrine in legislation the Government’s commitment to commissioning an independent public history relating to the Troubles. The term used throughout the debate this evening was “an official history”; the updated term, following the Pilling review, is a “public history”. Noble Lords will recall the fairly recent debate on this amendment during Committee, when noble Lords had an opportunity to discuss these proposals. From those who contributed on that occasion, there was certainly support in Committee for this project in principle.

It is clear that the main practical concern is around the extent to which the Government’s official history programme, which has been in hiatus since 2008, is a suitable delivery vehicle for a historical project of this scale and importance. Let me therefore clarify to noble Lords that, while this project would be akin to the official history programme for the purpose of using long-standing protocols to grant the necessary access to archival material, it will be driven forward separately by the Northern Ireland Office, consistent with subsection (5) of my noble friend’s proposed new clause.

I turn briefly to the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames—whom I have always listened to with huge admiration and respect, even when we may occasionally disagree slightly—and my noble friend Lord Patten of Barnes. It was in recognition of some of the difficulties that all three of them raised in their comments that the former Secretary of State specified in moving this project forward that, in keeping with previous official histories commissioned by the Government, this official history would focus primarily on the UK Government’s policy towards Northern Ireland during the Troubles, rather than attempting to write a general history of the Troubles themselves.

Returning to my noble friend Lord Godson’s amendment, in respect of funding, I can confirm that the project will be fully funded from the £250 million pot that the Government set aside for the establishment of legacy mechanisms as part of the Stormont House and New Decade, New Approach agreements. Having written to my noble friend, I hope that the update and clarifications have gone some way to providing assurances on the concerns which may have prompted his amendment, and otherwise demonstrated the seriousness with which the Government are approaching this endeavour, so I would respectfully suggest that he does not press his amendment. I am of course happy to engage with him further in advance of Third Reading, recognising his strong interest in this matter and his expert advice, which I warmly welcome.

On that basis, I urge noble Lords to withdraw or not to press these amendments.

[Lord Godson (Con)]

My Lords, I will be happy not to press my amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

115: Clause 45, page 36, line 20, at end insert—
“(aa) consult relevant organisations in the course of considering each recommendation, and”Member’s explanatory statement
This requires the Secretary of State, when considering recommendations made in the memorialisation strategy, to consult organisations with expertise in reconciliation or anti-sectarianism.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

119: Clause 48, page 38, line 17, at end insert—
“(c) that programme is carried out in a way that promotes—(i) reconciliation,(ii) anti-sectarianism, and(iii) non-recurrence of political and sectarian hostility between people in Northern Ireland.”Member’s explanatory statement
This requires designated persons to have regard to certain (additional) matters when carrying out the Troubles-related work programme.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

121: Clause 50, page 39, line 16, at end insert “, and
(b) consult relevant organisations about the proposed designation.”Member’s explanatory statement
This requires the Secretary of State, before designating a person under Clause 50 in relation to the Troubles-related work programme, to consult organisations with expertise in reconciliation or anti-sectarianism.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

122: Clause 51, page 39, line 41, at end insert—
““relevant organisation” means an organisation that the Secretary of State considers to have expertise in carrying out, promoting or otherwise facilitating activities that are intended to encourage reconciliation or anti-sectarianism;”Member’s explanatory statement
This defines a term used in the amendments in Lord Caine’s name related to the Troubles-related work programme under Part 4.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

125: Clause 54, page 43, line 23, at end insert—

“financial year

This has the meaning given in section 2(9).”

Member’s explanatory statement
This amends the table of definitions to include the definition of “financial year” that is added to the Bill by the amendments of Clause 2 in Lord Caine’s name.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

127: Clause 54, page 45, line 30, second column, leave out from “which” to first “the” in line 32 and insert “(if contained in a Bill for an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly) would result in the Bill requiring”
Member’s explanatory statement
This changes the definition of “reserved provision” to reflect the fact that section 8(b) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 requires consent to a Bill for an Act (rather than to the Act itself).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

128: Clause 57, page 47, line 30, leave out “Part 3” and insert “section 39”
Member’s explanatory statement
This would provide for only Clause 39 (and the associated amendments in Schedule 12) to come into force two months after royal assent.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

130: Schedule 1, page 50, line 30, at end insert—
“5A_(1) The ICRIR must—(a) keep proper accounts and proper records in relation to them, and(b) prepare a statement of accounts in respect of each financial year.(2) The statement of accounts must be prepared in accordance with any directions that are given by the Treasury.(3) The ICRIR must send a copy of each statement of accounts to the Secretary of State and the Comptroller and Auditor General as soon as practicable after the end of the financial year to which the statement relates.(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General must—(a) examine, certify and report on each statement of accounts,(b) send a copy of each report and certified statement to the Secretary of State, and(c) lay before Parliament a copy of each such report and certified statement.”Member’s explanatory statement
This would require the ICRIR to keep accounts and provides for the accounts to be laid before Parliament.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

145: Schedule 2, page 60, line 17, at end insert—
“(1A) Sub-paragraph (1)(a) does not apply to an assault on a designated ICRIR officer under the law of England and Wales (instead see section 1 of the Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018).”Member’s explanatory statement
This avoids overlap with the provisions of the Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018 which will apply to designated ICRIR officers (but is law only in England and Wales).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

146: Schedule 4, page 64, line 39, leave out “£1,000” and insert “£5,000”
Member’s explanatory statement
This increases the maximum penalty for failure to comply with an information notice under section 14 from £1,000 to £5,000.

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

147: After Schedule 4, insert the following new Schedule—
“NO IMMUNITY IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCESPART 1SEXUAL OFFENCE, EXISTING CONVICTION OR ONGOING PROSECUTIONApplication of this Part
1_ This Part of this Schedule applies if—(a) a person (P) has requested the ICRIR to grant P immunity from prosecution (the “current request”) under section 18 and conditions A to C are met, but(b) this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity for an identified possible offence (see paragraphs 2 and 3).Prohibition of grant of immunity: sexual offences
2_(1) A grant of immunity for an identified possible offence is prohibited if it is—(a) a sexual offence, or(b) an inchoate offence relating to a sexual offence.(2) For the purposes of this paragraph “sexual offence” includes—(a) rape;(b) any offence committed by—(i) sexual assault,(ii) sexual activity, or(iii) causing or inciting another person to engage in sexual activity;(c) any offence relating to indecent images of children.(3) For the purposes of this paragraph “inchoate offence relating to a sexual offence” includes an offence of—(a) attempting to commit a sexual offence;(b) conspiracy to commit a sexual offence;(c) incitement to commit a sexual offence;(d) aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of a sexual offence.(4) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision about the meaning of—(a) “sexual offence”, or(b) “inchoate offence relating to a sexual offence”;for the purposes of this Part of this Schedule (including provision specifying offences which are to comprise, or to be included in, that definition).(5) Regulations under this paragraph are subject to negative procedure.Prohibition of grant of immunity: conviction or ongoing prosecution
3_(1) A grant of immunity for an identified possible offence is prohibited if—(a) P has a conviction for the identified possible offence,(b) P is being prosecuted for the identified possible offence, or(c) P is being prosecuted for any other offence (whether or not a Troubles-related offence), and the immunity requests panel is satisfied that granting P immunity from prosecution for the identified possible offence would risk having, or would have, a prejudicial effect on that prosecution.(2) For the purposes of this paragraph—(a) P is “being prosecuted for” an offence if a public prosecution of P for the offence has begun and is continuing;(b) a “public prosecution” means any prosecution other than a private prosecution;(c) a public prosecution of P for an offence “has begun” if a prosecutor has made the decision to prosecute P for that offence;(d) the circumstances in which a public prosecution of P is to be regarded as continuing include circumstances where the trial which forms part of the prosecution ends without P being convicted or acquitted or any other verdict being given and either—(i) the period for the prosecution to seek a retrial is continuing (without a retrial having been sought), or(ii) the prosecution have sought a retrial;(e) the circumstances in which a public prosecution of P is to be regarded as not continuing include—(i) circumstances where the trial which forms part of the prosecution ends with P being convicted or acquitted or with another verdict being given, and(ii) circumstances where the trial ends without P being convicted or acquitted or any other verdict being given and the period for the prosecution to seek a retrial ends without a retrial having been sought.Grant of immunity prohibited for all identified possible offences
4_(1) If this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity for all of the identified possible offences, the ICRIR must not grant P immunity from prosecution in relation to the current request.(2) Accordingly, section 18(1) and (7) to (16) do not apply in relation to the current request.Grant of immunity prohibited for some identified possible offences
5_(1) This paragraph applies if this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity for some (but not all) of the identified possible offences.(2) The immunity requests panel must not decide under section 18(7) that P should be granted immunity from prosecution for—(a) any identified possible offence for which this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity, or(b) a description of offences that includes any identified possible offence for which this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity.(3) The ICRIR must not grant P immunity from prosecution for any identified possible offence for which this Schedule prohibits a grant of immunity.(4) Section 18(7) to (13) have effect subject to this paragraph.PART 2NEW REQUEST FOR IMMUNITY AFTER REVOCATION OF PREVIOUS GRANT6_(1) This paragraph applies where—(a) under section (Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity), a court revokes immunity from prosecution granted to a person (P)(the “revoked immunity”),(b) P requests the ICRIR to grant P immunity from prosecution (the “new request”),(c) the new request—(i) is made before the revocation and is not concluded at the time of the revocation, or(ii) is made after the revocation, and(d) conditions A to C in section 18 are met in relation to the new request.(2) When dealing with the new request, the duty of the immunity requests panel to decide (under section 18(7)) what immunity should be granted to P has effect subject to sub-paragraphs (3) and (4).(3) The panel must not decide that P should be granted immunity from prosecution for any identified possible offence which was also within the scope of the revoked immunity.(4) When the panel is determining under section 18(9) or (11)(b) a description of offences for which P should be granted immunity from prosecution, the panel must frame the description so that it does not consist of, or include, one or more offences which were also within the scope of the revoked immunity.(5) If the panel decides in accordance with sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) that there are no offences for which P should be granted immunity—(a) the panel must decide that P should not be granted immunity from prosecution, and(b) the ICRIR must not grant P immunity from prosecution (and accordingly section 18(1) does not apply).(6) For the purposes of this paragraph the new request is “concluded” when the ICRIR gives P written notice of the outcome of the request in accordance with section 18(13)(a).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment deals with offences for which a person cannot be granted immunity from prosecution. The provision about sexual offences is moved here from Clause 19. It contains provision about previous convictions and current prosecutions (replacing Clause 20(1)). It also deals with cases where a person’s immunity from prosecution is revoked under new Clause (Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

151: Schedule 10, page 81, line 6, leave out from “if” to end of line 8 and insert “, on 1 May 2024, a senior coroner was under a duty to conduct the investigation unless, on that day, the only part of the investigation that remains to be carried out is the coroner or any jury making the determination and any findings required by section 10, or something subsequent to that.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This would require any inquest initiated before the commencement of Schedule 10 to be discontinued on the commencement of that Schedule, unless the inquest is at its very final stage (the determination and any findings).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

159: Schedule 11, page 85, leave out lines 22 and 23 and insert—
““(6A) An offence is a qualifying offence if—(a) subsection (7) or (7A) applies to the offence, and(b) the prisoner was convicted of the offence—(i) before the day on which section 18(1) of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 came into force, or(ii) on or after that day by virtue of a public prosecution begun before that day.(6B) For the purposes of subsection (6A)—(a) “public prosecution” means any prosecution other than a private prosecution;(b) a public prosecution of a person for an offence is “begun” when a prosecutor makes the decision to prosecute that person for that offence.””Member’s explanatory statement
This will prevent a prisoner from being released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 if the prisoner is convicted after the ICRIR’s power to grant immunity from prosecution becomes exercisable (and so is a case where the prisoner could have avoided conviction by obtaining immunity).

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Moved by

[Lord Caine]

162: Schedule 12, page 89, line 8, at end insert—
“2A_ After section 60ZC of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 insert—<strong>“60ZD </strong> The Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery(1) An agreement for the establishment in relation to ICRIR officers of procedures corresponding or similar to any of those established by virtue of this Part may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, be made between the Ombudsman and the ICRIR.(2) Where no such procedures are in force in relation to the ICRIR, the Secretary of State may by order establish such procedures.(3) An agreement under this section may at any time be varied or terminated with the approval of the Secretary of State.(4) Before making an order under this section the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the Ombudsman; and(b) the ICRIR.(5) Nothing in any other statutory provision prevents the ICRIR from carrying into effect procedures established by virtue of this section.(6) No such procedures shall have effect in relation to anything done by an ICRIR officer outside Northern Ireland.(7) In this section—“ICRIR” means the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery;“ICRIR officer” has the same meaning as in the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023.””Member’s explanatory statement
This enables the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland to have jurisdiction over ICRIR officers.