Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2013

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Astor of Hever]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2013.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

Motion agreed.

Reserve Forces

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement made in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement on the future of our Reserve Forces. In November last year, I announced a formal consultation which lasted until January this year. I am grateful for the more than 3,000 responses we received. I have placed copies of the summary of consultation findings in the Library of the House.

More than 25,000 reservists from all three services have deployed on operations over the past 10 years. Sadly, 30 have paid the ultimate price, and I know that the whole House will want to join me in saluting their sacrifice.

In 2011, the Future Reserves 2020 Commission reported that our reserves were in serious decline. The Government responded by committing to revitalise our Reserve Forces as part of Future Force 2020, reversing the decline of the recent past, growing their trained strength to 35,000 by 2018 and investing an additional £1.8 billion in them over 10 years.

We recognise the extraordinary commitment reservists make and, in return, we commit to deliver the reservist a challenging and rewarding experience, combined with an enhanced remuneration and support package and an improved deal for employers, but to recruit the reserves we need and train and equip them to be fit for purpose in Future Force 2020 requires substantial change.

I am today publishing a White Paper setting out our vision for the Reserve Forces and the detail of how we will make reserve service more attractive. It also confirms our intention to change the name of the Territorial Army to Army Reserve—better to reflect the future role. Alongside the White Paper, I am publishing the first report of the independent External Scrutiny Group which I announced last year to oversee and report on our progress in delivering Future Reserves 2020.

The White Paper reiterates our commitment to improve access to modern equipment and provide better training as part of the £1.8 billion package. Two hundred million pounds will be invested in equipment for the Army Reserve and to kick start that programme I can announce today that we will bring forward to this year £40 million of investment in new dismounted close combat equipment—meaning upgraded weapons and sights, night vision systems, and GPS capabilities will start to be delivered to reserve units before the end of the year.

The integration of regulars and reserves is key to Future Force 2020. That integration prompts a closer alignment of the structure of remuneration across the Armed Forces. We have therefore decided to increase reservists’ total remuneration in two ways: through the provision, for the first time, of a paid annual leave entitlement in respect of training days and through the accrual of pension entitlements under the new future armed forces pension scheme 2015, for time spent on training as well as when mobilised. These two measures represent a substantial percentage increase in total reserve remuneration.

The White Paper sets out details of an improved package of occupational health support for reservists to underpin operational fitness. We will also ensure that effective welfare support is delivered to reservists and their families. Welfare officers are being recruited now for Army Reserve units. Additionally, we have already implemented measures to streamline and incentivise the process by which those leaving the Regular Forces can transfer to the volunteer reserve, with accelerated processing, passporting of medical and security clearances and retention of rank, as well as a signing-on bounty of £5,000 for ex-regulars and for direct entry officers joining the Army Reserve.

The support of employers is crucial to delivering the future Reserve Forces. We seek to strengthen Defence’s relationships with employers so that they are open and predictable. The White Paper sets out how we will make liability for call up more predictable; make it easier for them to claim the financial assistance that is already available; increase financial support for SMEs by introducing a £500 per month per reservist financial award to small and medium enterprises when their reservist employees are mobilised; and improve civilian-recognised training accreditation to help employers to benefit from reserve training and skills.

The White Paper signals a step change in Defence’s offer to employers. I urge them to take up this challenge. In turn, by building on the Armed Forces covenant with the introduction of the corporate covenant, we will ensure that reservist employers get the recognition they deserve. However, while Defence is fully committed to an open and collaborative relationship with employers, it is essential that the interests of reservists are protected. Dismissal of reservists on the grounds of their mobilised reserve service is already illegal. We will legislate in the forthcoming defence reform Bill to ensure access to employment tribunals in claims for unfair dismissal on grounds of reserve service without a qualifying employment period.

The job that we are asking our reservists to do is changing, and the way in which we organise and train them will also have to change. That will impact on both force structure, and basing laydown. The force structures and roles of the maritime and air reserves will remain broadly similar to now, although increased in size and capability. The Army, however, has had substantially to redesign its reserve component to ensure regular and reserve capabilities seamlessly complement each other in an integrated structure designed for the future role. That redesigned structure has been driven primarily by the changed function and roles of the Army Reserve and the need to reach critical mass for effective sub-unit training.

The details of the future Army Reserve structure are complex and beyond what could coherently be explained in an Oral Statement. I have therefore laid a Written Ministerial Statement, supported by detailed documents which have been placed in the Library of the House, showing the complete revised order of battle of the reserve component of Army 2020.

This restructuring will require changes to the current basing laydown of the Army Reserve. The TA currently operates from 334 individual sites around the United Kingdom, including a number of locations with small detachments of fewer than 30 personnel. Some of these sites are seriously under-recruited. To maximise the potential for future recruitment, the Army is determined that, as it translates its revised structure into a basing laydown, it should take the opportunity to rationalise its presence by merging small, poorly recruited sub-units into larger sites in the same conurbation or in neighbouring communities. As part of this exercise, the Army Reserve will open or reopen nine additional reserve sites.

However, the consolidation of all poorly recruited units would have led to a significant reduction in basing footprint and a significant loss of presence in some, particularly rural, areas. I have decided that that would not be appropriate as we embark on a major recruitment campaign. We will therefore retain a significant number of small and under-recruited sites that the Army considers could become viable through effective recruiting. The units on those sites will be challenged to recruit up to strength in the years ahead. Over the next couple of years, we will work with local communities, through the Army’s regional chain of command, to target recruitment into those units. I know that honourable and right honourable Members will want to lead their local communities in rising to this challenge.

The result of the decisions I am announcing today is that the overall number of Army Reserve bases will reduce from the current total of 334 to 308, a net reduction of 26 sites. With your permission, Mr Speaker, I am distributing a summary sheet which identifies the reserve locations being opened and those being vacated.

The White Paper and the WMS on structure and basing together set the conditions to grow and sustain our reserves as we invest an additional £1.8 billion over 10 years in our vision for the integrated reserves of Future Force 2020. That vision means an even bigger contribution from our reservists and from employers as we expand the Reserve Forces. I am confident that both will rise to the challenge.

For the first time in 20 years, the reserves are on an upward trajectory. Those of us who are neither reservists nor employers can none the less provide vital support and encouragement to our fellow citizens who make such a valuable contribution to delivering our national security, and I know that Members on all sides of the House will want to take the lead in urging our communities to get behind the reserves and the recruiting drive that will build their strength to the target level over the next five years. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his general support for what we are doing. I share his and the Opposition’s aspiration to strengthen the reserves in a very bipartisan way. The noble Lord asked me about the Commons Statement. The Secretary of State said that he would investigate and write to the right honourable shadow Secretary of State. When I have more information, I will pass it on to the noble Lord. I myself have ensured that all the necessary paperwork was distributed in the Peers’ Lobby and the Prince’s Chamber during the first Question, and I hope that noble Lords have got their hands on everything. If they have not and we have run out of copies, I have some spare copies.

There is one correction that I need to point out: in the information that I have handed out, I have been advised that there is an inconsistency over Kilmarnock. There is no change in the end result for the figure of 46 sites for Scotland, but Kilmarnock should have been scored as a new site rather than as an existing one. That is therefore good news regarding occupation.

The reserves are an essential component of our national security, our future forces and success on operations. In future, their contribution to our defence capability will increase and the reserves will become an integrated part of the whole force.

I turn to the noble Lord’s questions. First, he mentioned plan B. I am confident that we can deliver on that, and I will come to that in a short while when I address another of his questions. His second question concerned whether the reductions in the Regular Forces made them more dependent on the reserves and the commitment that I was not able to give the noble Lord the other day. I still cannot give that commitment. We are aware that there are risks in this, but we are confident. Recruiting is going well and the historical figures are on our side. When I was in the Army—a long time ago, admittedly—the reserves numbered 100,000, with a much smaller population, and we had half the strength of the present reserves in 1990. Other countries, such as the United States, Australia and Canada, have a much higher percentage of reserves. We are investing £1.8 billion over 10 years and, as the Statement said, we are investing £40 million this year. We are confident that the reinvigorated reserves will deliver the quality and number of reservists that we will require in future, both in training and on operations.

Employers play a key role in enabling the reserves to deliver their essential contribution to defending the nation’s security. This future relationship may need some incentives, which could include a cross-government commitment to support employers who encourage volunteering. The public sector will take the lead in setting the example.

The noble Lord asked how the £1.8 billion will be divided. We review our allocation on a continuous basis, to maximise value for money from the available resources to meet the needs of the Reserve Forces. He also asked if a trained reservist would have the same level of skills as a regular. When reservists deploy to operations, they will be equally as skilled in their specialist roles as a regular they serve alongside. The noble Lord asked how recruitment was going. All the indications that I have heard indicate that it is going very well and we believe that the announcement will have a positive effect on Army Reserve recruiting.

Our Reserve Forces have always attracted highly motivated individuals, and the assurance that the reserves will play a more routine and assured role within the whole force concept will act to broaden the appeal and encourage those looking for such an opportunity and their employers. The noble Lord asked about the commitment that a reservist must give and whether there is a minimum time. Every service person enlists for an agreed period of service. As we are a voluntary force, we recognise that individuals can exercise choice to remain or leave. Measures announced in the White Paper should further encourage retention.

As for turnover, I can confirm that retention of reservists, particularly in the Army, is on average much better than that of their regular counterparts. The noble Lord then asked me about employers. The Ministry of Defence is committed to working with employers to understand their views on its use of reservists and the impact of legislation, to understand better what an employer can realistically sustain in future. The Ministry of Defence understands the importance of engaging with employers and potential employers and, in addition of engaging with employer groups such as the CBI and FSB through the chain of command, the National Employer Advisory Board, SaBRE and the Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Association.

Finally, the noble Lord asked about the legal situation relating to employment tribunals. An individual cannot generally bring a claim for unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal until he or she has completed two years of continuous service with an employer. Periods of mobilisation do not count towards continuous service; therefore, it can take reservists longer than two years to gain this protection. I think that covers all the noble Lord’s questions, but if I have missed anything I will write to him.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the Statement that he has repeated. From these Benches we associate ourselves with saluting the sacrifice made by our reservists. To meet the challenge of significantly increasing the numbers in our Reserve Forces we need to foster the belief that employers, employees and the nation all benefit from reserve service. Will the Minister say whether medically trained reservists will be able to bring skills to the military and develop additional skills to bring back to their UK employers? Will he also tell the House how employers and employees are to be convinced that there are benefits to the employer and the employee from improved skills and experience while serving, which might outweigh the temporary loss of civilian work time? Finally, will he say whether consultation with employers—which he mentioned previously—have uncovered signs of corporate social responsibility by allowing or even encouraging participation in the reserves?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in answer to the first part of the noble Lord’s question, medical reservists develop additional valuable specialist skills when they are deployed, which they then bring back to the National Health Service. The Defence Medical Services is uniquely placed to share the development of operationally specific medical science and clinical excellence with the NHS. The National Institute for Health Research centre has brought together military and civilian trauma surgeons and scientists to share innovation in medical research, to advance clinical practice on the battlefield and to benefit all trauma patients in the National Health Service at an early stage of injury.

On the benefits to an employer who recruits an employee who is a reservist, I would say that reserve service will benefit different employers in different ways. For some, the improved skills, experience and training of the individual reservist will be beneficial. For others, where the reservist’s military role is close to their civilian one, there will be more benefit from transferable skills. For some companies and sectors, reserve service suits and supports their business models. For many, reserve service may support corporate social responsibility objectives and may be part of their social action plans, alongside wider volunteering policies. We encourage employers to publicise their support for the Reserve Forces to customers, suppliers and their local communities. The second part of my answer was in response to my noble friend’s third question.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, the Government say in the White Paper that they will introduce new legislation to enable mobilisation for the full range of tasks that our Armed Forces may be asked to undertake. Current mobilisation arrangements are something of a historical anachronism. Invariably they require ministerial authority. They date from a time when protection for employers was nothing like as good as it will be in future. Will there be arrangements to allow mobilisation of individuals for very small units to be carried out without having to seek ministerial authority?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot from the Dispatch Box answer the noble and gallant Lord’s question. That point is not in my briefing, but I will write to him.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, as a former president for 10 years of the Reserve Forces Association, I warmly welcome this Statement. I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm two key principles. First, we should maintain the footprint of the Reserve Forces—and the Armed Forces—around the country. I am very pleased that there are no dramatic plans to reduce their number. Secondly, will the Minister confirm that the support of employers, and in particular of small employers, is crucial to maintaining support for the Reserve Forces?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm both points. We consider the footprint absolutely vital. Where we have had to close places it is because there has been a very small uptake in recruitment. We have managed to close fewer than we planned. I agree with my noble friend’s point about employers, and in particular small companies. In finishing, I pay tribute to my noble friend for the important work that he did.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The noble Lord was characteristically thorough and conscientious in informing the House and in answering my noble friend’s questions. However, I think that he left out one point. Will the £5,000 joining-up bonus be repayable if the officer does not do a minimum amount of service? I would be interested in the answer to that. I think that it will be quite a challenge to get to 35,000 but an ever greater challenge to get to a point where the reservists are on the same footing as the regulars and do not suffer a higher rate of casualties on active deployment. In that context, it is very important that we should put everything behind them in terms of equipment and training, and the noble Lord gave us some assurances on that point. Equally valuable is the promise by the Government to strengthen the defence of reservists against dismissal. However, would it not be a good idea for the Government to go further and to protect reservists not just against the danger of unfair dismissal but against discrimination in terms of remuneration or promotion? The American national guard has that kind of protection. Surely it is very important that reservists, or those who are planning to join the reserves, are confident that they will not suffer discrimination of that kind in the job market.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as regards the noble Lord’s first question about the £5,000, I do not change my answer. The reservists who join up are free to leave whenever they want. We are very confident that those regulars who become reservists will stay and will not leave the minute they get their money. We are also very confident that by 2018 we will get up to the figures that we need. I have spent a lot of time being briefed and our recruiting figures are going better than we expected. Noble Lords will see in the White Paper all the inducements that we are giving to the reservists and their families, and the encouragement that we are giving to employers. We realise that we have to work much more closely with employers than has happened in the past and we will endeavour to do that.

[Lord Burnett]

Will my noble friend confirm to the House that no closures of Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Marines Reserve units are planned? I should remind the House that Corporal Croucher, a Royal Marine reservist, was awarded the George Cross while serving in Afghanistan, and Corporal Seth Stephens, a Special Boat Service reservist who was killed in action in Afghanistan, was posthumously awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross. These two outstanding and brave men had both served for many years as regular Royal Marines. What encouragement are the Government going to give retiring members of the Regular Forces to join the reserves? Regular members of the Armed Forces have so much to offer the reserves. They have a high level of training and expertise and are fully aware of the demands that will be made of them.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm my noble friend’s first point. No Royal Naval Reserve or Royal Marines Reserve units are closing as a result of FR20. As part of a wider betterment programme, three units will relocate to new accommodation, often in more populated areas. In some instances, the final decision on where the new locations will be is yet to be made, but the distance that current reserves will be expected to travel to attend their new location is likely to be less than 12 miles.

Regarding my noble friend’s question about regular redundees joining the reserves, the reserves have always benefited from the experience brought by ex-regulars, and some capabilities have relied heavily on their skills owing to the time that it takes to train on advanced equipment. Those who leave the Army through redundancy are being encouraged to consider a part-time military career in the reserves. For the Army, ex-regulars who enlist in the Army Reserve within three years of leaving regular service can enjoy a number of incentives and benefits, such as the reduced Army Reserve commitment and training requirement or, alternatively, a commitment bonus worth £5,000 paid over four years. That partly answers the noble Lord’s question. There is a comprehensive information campaign to ensure that all service leavers, and not just redundees, are aware of the opportunities and benefits of joining the reserves.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, pro rata, recruitment to the reserves in Northern Ireland in recent years has been greater than that in England, Scotland or Wales?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm that to the noble Lord. That point came up in the Statement in the other place and it is absolutely true.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Statement and wish him and his colleagues every success in achieving this plan for the Reserve Forces. As the Minister knows, in the past I have asked him a number of questions about the Defence Medical Services and I see from the White Paper that 38% of the DMS is currently reservists. What percentage of the DMS does he envisage will be reservists in the future and will there be some medical competences within the DMS which will be entirely dependent on reservists?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support. He is absolutely right that the figure is 38%. I have seen the hugely valuable work that they do in Camp Bastion. Both the Armed Forces and the National Health Service benefit from the work that is going on and we will need these medical people in the future. I cannot give a specific percentage figure but I can assure the noble Lord how vital these people will be to us.

[Lord Stirrup]

My Lords, the Written Ministerial Statement rightly makes reference to the potential implications that the basing changes may have on cadet force units where these are collated with reservist units. I welcome the statement that alternative accommodation will be pursued in such cases but, of course, “pursue” is a slightly slippery word and does not quite imply the same as “achieve”. Will the Minister undertake to keep a very close eye on this to ensure that the changes being made with regard to the Reserve Forces cause no harm to what is widely acknowledged to be the finest youth institution in the land?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can give the noble and gallant Lord that assurance. We take the cadets very seriously. In the few cases where a unit closes, mostly the cadets will remain in the building but on a very few occasions they will be moved very nearby. I have been a patron of sea cadets and I have first-hand knowledge of the important work that they do.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, can my noble friend say a little more about the integration of the newly enhanced Reserve Forces with the Regular Forces, which will be crucial to the effective transfer to which he referred?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Army Reserve units will be paired with regular units in peacetime for training and force generation, enabling combined training and helping to build links with the local community, including employers, to aid recruitment and resettlement of service leavers. Reserve units in all three services may be integrated with regular units for mission rehearsals and for operations. We will ensure that our use of reserves is as predictable as possible to help reservists, their families and particularly employers to plan ahead. Specific levels of attendance will become a compulsory part of the proposition and the majority of reservists can expect a maximum of 12-months mobilised service in a five-year period. Whether it is needed will obviously depend on operational requirement.

[Lord Glenarthur]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Statement. It is certainly extremely comprehensive. From what one can see from a first glance at the White Paper, it fulfils many of the aspirations which those of us who commented on the Green Paper felt were necessary. However, I should like to ask my noble friend about the national relationship management scheme. I suggest that, in any adaptation of the current relationships that exist, the process should be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Having been involved in it for several years as chairman of the National Employer Advisory Board, the mechanisms that have existed for the past 12 to 15 years have proved to be extraordinarily effective. For example, the branding of SaBRE is such that it is understood throughout the country. I hope that my noble friend will ensure that this can be built on rather than something totally new created which is more likely to confuse than to help.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his support. I also pay tribute to him for the important work that he has done for the reserves over many years. My noble friend made some very important points. I will take them on board and take them back to my department.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, in terms of the importance of enthusing and recognising employers, rather on the lines of the Queen’s Awards for Enterprise, and given the military service of Prince William and Prince Harry, would it be possible to consider something like the Princes’ Reserve Forces Award, which would combine employer participation, national interest and royal recognition?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are looking at this area very closely. As I said, we take the relationship with the employers very seriously, and this is one of the ideas under consideration.

[Lord Mayhew of Twysden]

My Lords, will my noble friend come back to the question of retention? If the reserve units are to be fully integrated into the Regular Forces, does it not follow that if their members do not step up to the plate when called on to do so, the Regular Forces concerned will be deficient in their capability? Can he think a little further as to whether what he says he has great confidence in ought not to be toughened up with something more enforceable?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I repeat that I am confident. As I understand it, retention in the reserves, particularly the Army reserves, is very much higher than in the regulars. I do not have the figures in front of me, but I was told before I came into the Chamber that retention in the reserves is considerably higher than in the regulars. I can write to my noble and learned friend with the figures.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that the business community has culled and fined its companies in the matter of strength and management to get through this very difficult economic stage. As a number of noble Lords have mentioned, some sort of reward is essential for those companies which are taking part. I will say a little more bluntly that perhaps some tax benefit or some exemption from certain company taxes should be given to companies which fulfil the deal. Giving away one chap today in a company, particularly in a small to medium-sized company, is a considerable sacrifice, and I believe that Her Majesty’s Government have not fully thought through the rewards for the business community.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount that nothing is off the table. We are open to any suggestions. As for his proposal for a tax benefit, I will run it by the Treasury. It is certainly a very good suggestion. We seek an open relationship with employers tailored to meet the needs of different sizes and types of employers, based on mutual benefit. That will include working together to credit the skills and the training that reservists gain during service with recognised civilian qualifications, and the area that the noble Viscount mentioned.

Armed Forces: Human Rights

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Craig of Radley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice and directions are being given to Armed Forces personnel following the Supreme Court judgment on 19 June that human rights legislation, and in particular the right to life, may apply to Armed Forces personnel engaged in operations abroad.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, urgent cross-government discussions are taking place to consider our options. We will provide advice to members of the Armed Forces as soon as possible. The Government are concerned that the ruling creates uncertainty and will continue to defend their position against ill-founded legal claims, while continuing to provide our forces with the equipment they need, and ensuring that, where casualties occur, generous provision is made for troops and their families through the Armed Forces compensation scheme.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

I thank the noble Lord for that not very reassuring Answer. Can he advise on this situation? A commanding officer orders a soldier to take part in operations overseas against an armed enemy, so clearly there is a risk of injury or loss of life. Is that officer’s order lawful? If the soldier disobeys the order, is he liable to a charge and court martial under Section 12, possibly, of the Armed Forces Act because he did not go into the operation? Is the officer liable to be charged or found disciplined under the human rights legislation because the soldier followed his instructions but was killed in battle?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I hope that I can give the noble and gallant Lord some reassurance on his questions. While the judgment will create uncertainties, we are determined that it will not undermine the authority of commanders in the field to give orders required in often fast-moving circumstances. I do not expect it to be open to a soldier facing a charge of failing to follow orders to argue that his human rights trumped those orders, nor do I believe that officers acting in good faith would ever face disciplinary action in the circumstances that the noble and gallant Lord has described.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, the ruling is that the families of the Armed Forces personnel concerned can take action against the Ministry of Defence, since the court ruled that the doctrine of combat immunity should be interpreted narrowly. The individual claims concerned will now return to the High Court and it remains to be seen what the exact outcome will be. While it is essential that the MoD and the Armed Forces have a duty of care to service personnel, the concerns that have been expressed by the Defence Secretary and senior military figures on the potential military implications of the ruling should give pause for thought. Can the Minister say whether any consideration is likely to be given by the Government to the legislative position in the light of the court ruling, and is he aware of any of our allies who are in a similar position to the one in which we now find ourselves?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I said in my initial response, urgent discussions are taking place in the Ministry of Defence. We are meeting lawyers and trying to work out the best way forward for members of the Armed Forces. As regards our allies, we know that they are very interested in this issue and we will share the conclusions of our discussions with them as soon as possible.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, lawyers representing relatives said that the ruling meant that the Ministry of Defence owed a duty of care properly to equip service men and women as they went to war. Will the Minister comment on whether this interim judgment creates a risk of making the MoD more cautious with its engagements and less effective in peacekeeping? Will the Minister also confirm that the MoD is aware of its responsibilities towards our service men and women to provide them with vehicles and equipment suitable to the areas of conflict?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, with regard to making the MoD more cautious, looking around the House I can see noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords who, in their time, had to take very difficult operational decisions on land, at sea and in the air. I am sure that they would agree that we must ensure that commanders have the confidence to take decisions that often must be made in the heat of combat to obtain their objective with the least possible loss of life.

As for the equipment, the most important priority is the protection of our troops. Since this litigation started, the wide range of protective vehicles, including Mastiff, Ridgeback, Husky, Wolfhound, Jackal and Foxhound, have been available to commanders to match the most appropriate available vehicle to a specific task, based on the assessment of operational risk. Every effort is made to bring troops’ kit up to spec for the job they do and continuously to update it as technology advances.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, 31 years ago my ship was bombed and sunk close inshore in the Falkland Islands during the amphibious landings, and its AA weapons systems were totally inadequate in the position in which it was placed. I knew that, as the commanding officer, and my task group commander knew that, but it is the duty of military men to fight the war they are in with the equipment they have. It is clearly a total nonsense that one can use human rights legislation to go against that. Indeed, if we had not done that, we would not have won that war. Will the Minister not agree that it is totally bonkers to apply this sort of legislation to war?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord rightly raises the issue that we are grappling with at the moment.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the implications of the most recently announced redundancies in the British Army for the United Kingdom’s defence capabilities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the Chief of the General Staff and his team assess that the size and the structure of the Army set out in Future Army 2020 will deliver the level of capability agreed in the October 2010 SDSR and the associated national security strategy. The Army’s element of the Armed Forces redundancy programme is a consequence of the size of the Army being delivered under Future Army 2020 and as such there are no implications for the UK’s defence capabilities.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords:

“There’s never been a better time to be a soldier, to get qualified and have a career”.

That is on the Army website at this minute. It further states that,

“there will be even more opportunities for people who want to enjoy the challenges that come with being a soldier”.

That is a sham. If there were any justice the Government would be prosecuted for issuing a misleading prospectus. The Minister is well regarded in this House, deservedly so, and perhaps he is here with a heavy heart today, but how much longer will the Government go on sacking highly trained, highly skilled, highly motivated soldiers who have been trained at great expense to the taxpayer and have served our country well, and, at the same time, spend an absolute fortune on advertising for, recruiting and training their replacements? It is a total waste of taxpayers’ money and is harming our defence capability.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, no Government likes making these kinds of redundancies. While reduced recruiting and fewer extensions of service will account for some reductions, a redundancy programme is needed to ensure that the right balance of skills is maintained.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, is it not the case that more than 80% of those who are on the redundancy programme this time are volunteers? If so, what does that say about morale in the Armed Forces, particularly in the Army?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the number of applications for redundancy is not a good indicator of the state of morale because the Army has deliberately set out to maximise applications. Additionally, it should be noted that only 30% of those who were eligible applied for redundancy.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, will the Minister expand on his Answer in relation to reductions in the Army to include reductions in the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy? The proposals were for 5,000 reductions in the RAF and 5,000 in the Royal Navy. Can he tell the House the timing of those reductions and what progress has been made? Following on from the previous question, what is the state of morale in the Armed Forces if voluntary redundancies are of the extent about which we have been told?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I think I covered the question of morale in my previous answer. As to redundancies in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, in tranche 1, 2,800 personnel—just over 1,000 Royal Navy, 920 Army and 920 RAF—were selected for redundancy, of which 62% were applicants. In tranche 2 of the Armed Forces redundancy programme, 3,760 personnel—165 Royal Navy, 2,880 Army and 750 RAF—were selected for redundancy. Achieving the reductions required to bring the Regular Army to a strength of 82,000 is expected to require a further redundancy tranche, which may also include medical personnel of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. However, at this point, no decision on this has been taken.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister is aware that the Chief of the General Staff and the Secretary of State for Defence are both on record as saying that any further cuts would dramatically impact on our military capability. All of us who have any knowledge of the MoD know that there is insufficient funding for Future Force 2020, to which the Minister referred. Notwithstanding this and assuming that there will be further cuts, have we conducted a detailed analysis—rather like the highly regarded global strategy paper that was produced—looking at the true impact of these forced reductions on our Armed Forces’ ability to conduct the military operations that our nation has a right to expect of them?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, as he would expect, I agree with the Secretary of State. On the issue of detailed analysis, as the noble Lord knows there are some very bright people in the Ministry of Defence and I can assure him that endless meetings are taking place to discuss the way forward.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, could my noble friend very gently point out to noble Lords opposite that none of this would have been necessary had the previous Government not made such a mess of the defence procurement programme and a mess of our economy?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I have done this on numerous occasions, and not always in a gentle fashion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

Would the noble Lord be kind enough to return to the Question he was originally asked by my noble friend Lord Touhig and address the recruitment campaign? I do not think I heard him answer the implied question. Why are we still recruiting when we are making redundancies?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, even while reducing in size, the army must continue to recruit new talent to replace those who are promoted. It needs to develop its own leaders. It cannot bring in people from outside to leadership roles without the necessary military experience.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will my noble friend say a word about the injured and the wounded, bearing in mind the very worthy tradition that wherever possible they were absorbed back into the armed services as soon as they were in a position to give of their best?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, all personnel who have been graded permanently below the minimum medical retention standard were exempt from redundancy and, where appropriate, will be medically discharged in due course. Every case of wounded, injured or sick will be assessed individually. No one will leave the Armed Forces through redundancy or otherwise until they have reached a point in their recovery where leaving is the right decision, however long it takes.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, is it not disingenuous and absurd to suggest that you can reduce the Army from 102,000 to 82,000 with no reduction in the nation’s defence capability? Will the noble Lord set out the figures clearly and frankly? What was the maximum military force that we were able to sustain over a number of years—for example in Iraq or Afghanistan—with an Army of 102,000, and what will be the maximum military force that we can deploy on a sustainable basis under the new arrangements for an Army of 82,000?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this was not being disingenuous. This level of capability was agreed by the SDSR and the National Security Council.

Armed Forces: Reserve Forces

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Shrewsbury]

My Lords, in asking the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare an interest as a former honorary colonel of A Squadron RMLY.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the 2011 independent commission on the Reserve Forces reported that they needed to be brought up to date to meet the needs of the new security environment. The Government published a Green Paper followed by a consultation, which generated around 3,000 responses from reservists, their families, regulars, employers, employer organisations and other interested parties. These have helped to shape the way forward, which we shall set out in a White Paper, with a ministerial announcement shortly.

[The Earl of Shrewsbury]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his Answer. However, is he aware that the Royal Mercian and Lancastrian Yeomanry, which is based in Telford in Shropshire, has a fine recruitment record and currently enjoys a local regimental laydown with its component squadrons? This would be completely lost should the regimental headquarters be moved out of the area. Is he further aware that, bearing in mind the Prime Minister’s recent commitment to expand the role and establishment of the Reserve Forces, there is a simple low-cost solution to this problem? That is, simply do not change the current structure of the yeomanry.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend for the very important work he does as an honorary colonel. To meet the likely scale of the security challenges the nation is likely to face, we are configuring our Armed Forces into a new structure under Future Force 2020. Reserve Forces will be central to this and will in future form a great proportion of the whole force delivering a range of capabilities and skills, some of which will be held only in the reserves. This will involve changes to some units but it is too early to say what those will be.

[Viscount Brookeborough]

Would the Minister not agree with me that in increasing the number of reserves, one of the most important things is the employer and employer relations? We still have not managed to provide the right recipe for them in every case to support members of their businesses in becoming reserves. I declare an interest in that I was on the National Employers’ Advisory Board and in the Army.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a very important point and we realise that this is a key area that we must get right. We are grateful to those employers who play a very important role. We recognise that the needs of employers must be understood and respected. That is why we are moving to relationships with employers based on partnering, giving greater predictability and certainty to when reserves will be required for training or, indeed, deployment.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, in the House of Commons on Monday, the Minister for the Armed Forces said:

“I am relatively confident that enough people will come forward to join the reserves and that we can look forward to having a vibrant reserve Army”.—[Official Report, 17/06/13; col. 609.]

Does the Minister share the doubts of his ministerial colleague, betrayed in that answer, that the target figure of 30,000 for our Reserve Forces may not be achieved? Can the Minister give an undertaking that the size of our Regular Army will not be reduced to the intended figure of 82,000 unless and until our Reserve Forces have been increased to 30,000 and have been appropriately trained?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are confident that the reinvigorated reserves will deliver the quality and the number of reservists we require in future, both in training and in operations. Over the next 10 years, we are investing £1.8 billion to revitalise the reserves. We have also appointed a three-star general whose job will be to deliver this transformation, including the engagement that will be required with employers. Unfortunately, I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the undertaking that he asked me to give on the numbers.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, the policy on this particular regiment highlights the many questions arising about our Reserve Forces as they grow to meet the demands of the Army 2020. Can the Minister say what thought has been given to the proposals to involve those Gurkhas now quite rightly in Britain in our Reserve Forces?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as my noble friend knows, the Government place great value on the contribution of Gurkhas, both past and present. Gurkhas already serve in the TA and ex-Gurkhas living in the UK can apply to join the reserves. The recent launch of the TA Live campaign encourages ex-regulars, including Gurkhas, to join. While we are not minded to have an exclusive ex-Gurkha reserve unit, the Brigade of Gurkhas is working with recruiters proactively to recruit ex-Gurkhas into the reserves.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, in addition to ensuring that our Reserve Forces are sufficiently numerous, is it not also important that they are properly equipped and do not just have to make do with hand-me-downs from the Regular Forces? Can the Minister give that assurance?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, yes, I can. This is central to achieving a fully integrated force. Reserves will train and develop a competence on the weapon and vehicle platforms common to their roles. Some of the most modern equipment currently in use—for example, the amphibious bridging—will only be used by the reserves.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, can the Minister advise the House what percentage of our doctors serving with our forces in Afghanistan are reservists? Is it envisaged that certain specific roles within the medical services will be designated entirely for reservists?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this is one of the areas that we are looking at very carefully at the moment. Meetings take place frequently in the Ministry of Defence and I hope to come back with an announcement on this important issue before the Summer Recess.

Royal Navy: Escort Vessels

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the ability of the Royal Navy’s escort vessels to meet the United Kingdom’s maritime commitments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the Royal Navy continues to meet its operational commitments. Looking forward, we are introducing six new Type 45 destroyers and seven Astute class submarines. In addition, the first of the four Tide class Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers will enter service in 2016. We are rebuilding our strike capability through the Queen Elizabeth class carriers and, with the Type 26 global combat ship, we have a new programme to develop more flexible frigates of the future.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My noble friend’s carefully crafted and well camouflaged reply hardly answers my specific Question. In 1982 at the time of the Falklands, we sent 22 escort vessels down there. Now, we probably have hardly 12 that we could put out operationally at any one time to meet all our worldwide commitments. The pressure is increasing, with Russia reviving its nuclear submarine patrols to the South Pole and China determined to become a major maritime power to support its growing overseas interests. In addition, the early warning Crow’s Nest radar system, to be integrated into our Merlin helicopters, apparently will not be ready until five years after our first new carrier is operational, thus increasing our position of vulnerability. Is the Navy not more concerned about the lack of escorts than anything else—and should not we be?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his compliment about the carefully crafted response. SDSR set out how the Government would secure Britain in an age of uncertainty. Central to this is maintaining the trade routes and access to resources and protecting United Kingdom citizens, territory and trade from terrorism, piracy and unlawful restrictions on freedom of navigation. My noble friend mentioned Crow’s Nest. The final assessment phase was approved in January and is due to come into service in 2020, with a deployable capability shortly afterwards. Navy Command and Defence Equipment and Support is exploring whether funding can be made available sooner, to bring forward the in-service date by up to two years.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister, for whom I have great admiration, knows that we have insufficient escort hulls and need more. Nineteen are simply insufficient for our nation and paying off four Type 22 escorts in the strategic defence and security review—since when £12 billion of underspend has been created—was a terrible error. However, one must not dwell on these mistakes of the past. Does the Minister not agree that the £250 million per annum that we will pay BAE Systems not to build warships should perhaps be used to build escorts?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot comment on what the noble Lord says about BAE. However, I compliment him on his resolute lobbying for the Royal Navy to attend the Royal Australian Navy’s 100th anniversary. The noble Lord has had a word with me two or three times about it. I can now assure him that the Royal Navy has responded to his request and will attend the 100th anniversary. HMS “Daring”, a Type 45 destroyer, will also be out there.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, bearing in mind the reduction in the number of surface vessels over the past few years, what commitments have Her Majesty’s Government had to give up as a result?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Naval Service, which includes the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary which supports them, is able to fulfil commitments around the globe and maintain a maritime presence in priority regions, such as the South Atlantic, the Gulf and the Indian Ocean. The Naval Service also safeguards the security of home waters, meets our defence commitments in the North Atlantic and the Caribbean, patrols the Antarctic waters and undertakes periodic deployments to other areas, such as the Far East and the Pacific.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the next generation of escort ships. Where are we with the development of Type 26 global combat ships? Are they still on target to come into service in the early 2020s; what does “the early 2020s” mean; and do we still intend to have 12 to 13 of these vessels?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Type 26 will be the workhorse of the future Royal Navy. It is in its assessment phase. I understand that the main investment decision will be made in the middle of the decade. The aspiration is that Type 26 will be in service by 2020, and the number we are hoping to have is 13.

[Baroness Wilcox]

Can the Royal Navy still deploy and support a Royal Marines brigade, given what the Minister has just said?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines continues to provide a key element of our high-readiness response force. With the Royal Navy’s amphibious shipping, 3 Commando Brigade has strategic reach and is able to land and sustain from the sea a commando group of up to 1,800 personnel, together with protective vehicles and other equipment. Other elements of the Royal Marines continue to undertake a wide range of tasks, including protecting the nuclear deterrent and contributing to operations against piracy in the Indian Ocean.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, there is a significant gap in our maritime surveillance capability. How and when do the Government intend to plug it?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there is no gap. Everything is carefully thought out. We would not be irresponsible enough to do what the noble Lord said.

Defence: Better Defence Acquisition

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Lance Corporal Jamie Webb of 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment, who died in hospital in Kandahar on Tuesday 26 March from wounds received in Afghanistan on Monday 25 March this year; Corporal William Savage and Fusilier Samuel Flint from the Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland; and Private Robert Hetherington, a Territorial Army soldier from 51st Highland, 7th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland—7 SCOTS—who were killed in Afghanistan on Tuesday 30 April this year; also, Drummer Lee Rigby of 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, who was killed in Woolwich, south-east London, on 22 May this year. My thoughts are also with the wounded and I pay tribute to the courage and fortitude with which they face their rehabilitation.

I turn to the Statement, which is as follows.

“Mr Speaker, the defence of UK national interests is a priority for this Government. To secure that defence we must provide our Armed Forces with the equipment and capabilities they need to operate in a rapidly changing security environment. Without the right equipment, delivered on time, properly maintained and available for use, our Armed Forces cannot function effectively and our national interests are put at risk. Effective procurement and support of defence equipment is therefore not just desirable, but an essential part of maintaining flexible and effective Armed Forces.

For decades, there has been an acknowledgement that defence acquisition in this country can, and should, be done better. Despite numerous reviews and reorganisations, successive Governments have failed to embed the systemic changes necessary to achieve that objective. We owe it to the men and women of our Armed Forces, and to the long-suffering taxpayer, to do better.

Two separate independent studies carried out for the MoD have suggested that the costs arising from inefficiency in the procurement process are between £1.3 billion and £2.2 billion per annum. Waste on that scale is unacceptable at any time—more so at a time of acute pressure on the public finances. I am determined to drive a step change in the way we do our defence procurement business.

In April, I announced to the House that we had launched the assessment phase for the department’s materiel strategy programme, considering two options for the future of the Defence Equipment and Support organisation. The first is a public sector benchmark, which we call DE&S-plus, and the second is a Government-owned, contractor-operated entity, a GOCO.

Today, I am publishing a White Paper which sets out the materiel strategy proposals in more detail and provides more information about our intention to create a new statutory framework to drive better value in single-source procurement contracts, protecting the taxpayer in this significant area of MoD business.

We believe that a GOCO operating model is the solution which is most likely effectively to embed and sustain the significant change that is required to reform defence acquisition. But the decision will be based on an objective value-for-money comparison between the GOCO and DE&S-plus options. The assessment phase is designed to deliver specific, costed, contract-quality proposals from GOCO bidders and test them against the DE&S-plus benchmark.

There has been considerable speculation in the media and elsewhere about the scope of a GOCO. At the most extreme, I have seen it suggested that the proposal is simply to hand over £15 billion a year of taxpayers’ money to a private company and leave it to decide what kit to buy for our Armed Forces. Let me reassure the House that that is emphatically not the proposition.

If GOCO is the selected option, the GOCO partner will manage DE&S on behalf of the Secretary of State. It will act as his agent. All contracts will continue to be entered into in the name of the Secretary of State. Strategic direction will be provided by a governance function that will remain within the MoD. The GOCO’s customers will be the front-line commands and the MoD itself. The DE&S workforce will be transferred to the GOCO operating company under standard TUPE—transfer of undertaking, protection of employment—arrangements and we will expect the GOCO partner to inject a small number of senior managers and possibly some key technical staff. Crucially, the GOCO is assumed to be able to recruit and reward its staff at market rates—a critical freedom in a business which is required to deal with the private commercial sector on a daily basis.

The proposal set out in the White Paper is for a phased transfer of DE&S to a GOCO, with checks and break points to allow us to halt the process if it is not delivering the results we require. The legislation and the contract will include a transfer regime that will allow the Secretary of State to transfer the business to another contractor, or back to the MoD in extremis.

If, at the end of the assessment phase, a GOCO operating model is selected, then we need to be able to move quickly to conclude a contract with the successful bidder. The Government therefore intend to provide in the defence reform Bill the necessary authorities to let a GOCO contract in 2014, together with measures required to allow a GOCO, to operate effectively.

There are finely balanced arguments about whether primary legislation is strictly required to allow the establishment of a GOCO. The Government have, however, decided that it is right that we should legislate in this instance because of the importance of DE&S to our Armed Forces and in order to ensure that Members of both Houses, many of whom take a keen interest in defence matters, have a proper opportunity to explore and debate the issues.

The White Paper sets out the proposed model for a GOCO, its key features and our expectations with regard to the control that the department will continue to exercise and the freedoms that the GOCO will enjoy. Its purpose is to set in context the legislation that we are bringing forward in the defence reform Bill, including provisions to: ensure that the MoD Police have the appropriate jurisdiction to be able to operate within the GOCO environment; extend to the new body certain statutory immunities and exemptions enjoyed by the Crown, for example, in relation to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act and the Nuclear Installations Act; and allow the transfer of shares in the operating company and/or property rights and liabilities in the operating company or contracting entity at the direction of the Secretary of State

I turn to the single-source procurement reform. The White Paper also sets out reforms to how the MoD undertakes single-source procurement of defence equipment. Open competition is our preferred approach to getting value for money. But sometimes there is only a single provider of a capability that we require. The need to maintain critical national industrial capabilities or sovereign control of the intellectual property in equipment programmes sometimes requires us to place contracts with UK companies without a competitive process.

Single-source procurement accounts for about 45% of the total MoD spend on defence equipment and support, or around £6 billion per year, and it is likely to remain at those levels for the next decade or so. Without competition, suppliers can price, and perform, without being constrained by the disciplines of the marketplace. There is a clear risk to defence and to taxpayers, and ensuring that we get good value for money in single-source procurement is a key part of my programme to reform defence acquisition.

The MoD currently uses a framework for single-source procurement which has remained largely unchanged for the past 45 years, despite the far-reaching changes to the industrial landscape and to commercial procurement practices that have occurred in that time. Under this system, the profit that contractors can earn is fixed, but there are few incentives for them to reduce costs. Such a system does not serve the best interest of defence or of a competitive, export-focused defence industry.

In 2011, the MoD commissioned the noble Lord, Lord Currie of Marylebone, to undertake an independent review of our existing approach and to make recommendations. He recommended a new framework: one that is based on transparency of contractor cost data, with much stronger supplier efficiency incentives, underpinned by stronger governance arrangements. Based on his recommendations, and extensive consultations with our major single-source suppliers, we have developed the new framework that I am proposing, details of which are set out in the White Paper.

At its heart is the principle that industry gets a fair profit in exchange for providing the MoD with the transparency and protections that we need to assure value for money. A statutory basis will ensure widespread coverage across our single-source suppliers and application of the regime throughout the single-source supply chain. The system will be policed by a stronger, independent, single-source regulations office to monitor adherence and to ensure that the regime is kept up to date. These changes will incentivise efficiency in operating costs and minimisation of overheads, supporting UK defence sector competitiveness, both at home and in export markets.

The proposals set out in this White Paper will deliver the real reform that our acquisition system needs to provide the support that our front-line forces deserve, to maximise the benefit of our £160 billion, 10-year defence equipment programme, and to deliver value for money for taxpayer. I commend the Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the general support given by Her Majesty’s Opposition for our defence procurement reform. We also want to approach this in a non-partisan way. There is general acceptance, including by the Opposition, of the problems in defence acquisition. Where we differ is perhaps in how we solve those problems. We have proposed a GOCO solution because we believe that incentivisation, the hard contract and the freedoms that GOCO would offer are the right way to deliver sustained improvement. Allowing the private sector, too, not only to share its expertise but to be held accountable for delivery will, we believe, deliver far greater effect than a wholly public sector set-up. We are testing that right now. This is very much the assessment phase—a decision will be made next year—and we are in listening and learning mode. There are a lot of experts in this House who know a great deal about this subject. We are very keen to hear any suggestions they may have and we are open to all their views.

The noble Lord asked me a number of questions. I was not able to write quickly enough to be able to answer them all but I will write to him and make sure that copies are also sent to noble Lords who ask questions afterwards. The first question was about the Atomic Weapons Establishment, which is a GOCO organisation, established to deliver a nuclear weapons capability for the UK nuclear deterrent programme. AWE Management Ltd is currently performing at or under its targeted cost and budget and has successfully shifted the organisation’s culture towards a more commercially focused one. Since transformation, AWE has successfully delivered efficiencies while increasing its salaries, and has allowed access to the necessary calibre of talent from the nuclear markets. We recognise that the AWE model may not entirely map to DE&S needs but it is a useful model against which to test our thinking.

The noble Lord asked me a number of questions about the workforce. The aim is to create an environment which supports more effective working at all levels across and between the interfaces of the new DE&S organisation and the wider department where our staff are more empowered and better able to carry out their jobs. This would allow DE&S better to support the Armed Forces and deliver better value for money for the taxpayer in a much more rewarding place to work. There would be more significant management freedom to run the organisation, increased opportunity to grow talent, develop the skills and the culture, and have the freedom and flexibility of management practices. The noble Lord asked about the role of military staff within the organisation. As is the case today, specialist military skills or expertise would be required in addition to recent operational experience to influence capability decision-making, delivery into service and support, and military staff would be seconded to the new organisation.

The noble Lord asked about the trade union position. We have been engaging with trade unions on our proposals throughout. Clearly, there are many questions that our workforce will wish to have answered as we develop both options through the assessment phase. But we would expect our workforce, and therefore the trade unions, to support our attempts to improve the environment in which our staff work, including the opportunity to improve skills, tools and processes. I have a lot of other information relating to the workforce on which I can perhaps write to the noble Lord. He asked how quickly we were planning to move. Taking the 2009 Gray report as a basis for change, we tested the thesis that the change we seek and the problems we are trying to solve could be made only by committing to a fundamental shift in approach. That detailed analysis led us to the two options: the GOCO model and DE&S plus. We have thoroughly analysed the business and the possible solutions and looked at the scope and capabilities of the organisation and what it is that we want. Now we need to assess who is out there who could actually deliver the proposition. That means running a competition which takes time, but we expect to make a decision next summer. I make no apology that it has taken some time. This is important, and it is important that we get it right.

The noble Lord said that we must be careful that we do not enter into a monopoly. I quite agree with him. We are in an assessment phase and a decision will be made next year. He asked about risks. Risks will be managed through the commercial contract. The MoD is taking forward plans to develop a customer construct that will be able to provide robust contract management. As with any major change programme, there are risks to its successful delivery. We will manage and mitigate these as the noble Lord would expect. The contract will be constructed with a number of break points, allowing the department to recompete the contract, or if necessary bring DE&S back in-house. A robust contract will be put in place between the GOCO provider and the MoD. The MoD governor function will monitor performance against the contract, and key performance indicators will be defined in the GOCO contract, covering the full spectrum of delivery, procurement, support, logistics and other services. Audits will be conducted as necessary to provide assurance that defence needs are being met.

I have done my best to answer as many of the noble Lord questions as possible but, as I said earlier, I will write to him on all the other ones.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, we on these Benches associate ourselves with the condolences and tributes from the Minister. I will be more direct and ask just one question, and it may be easier to give just one answer. I am worried about the GOCO proposals, as are many people, but I believe that the situation appertaining to procurement in the MoD cannot continue as it is and that something must change. GOCO seems to be the preferred solution and gives us many worries that were expounded during the debate on the Queen’s Speech. If GOCO proceeds, the question I want to focus on is the identity of the contractor—the CO part of GOCO. From Written Answers received from my noble friend the Minister, there is no reason why this contractor may not be a foreign company. We are apparently reassured that the foreign company’s UK arm will have a Chinese wall between it and its US or European parent company. With the experience in this country of industries such as water being sold to foreign companies and how they then control those companies, is the Minister not being over-optimistic in thinking that, if there were secrets in the UK arm of these overseas companies, those secrets would not somehow go—this sounds like the last question—to those overseas companies?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend and I have had a number of discussions about GOCO and I am well aware of his concerns. I look forward to continuing discussions in the future and to hearing any positive suggestions that he has. I agree that something has to change. We cannot carry on with the existing situation.

The noble Lord asked me about national security protection, a point also made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, which I should have answered. Our national security interests are a primary responsibility of the Government. The better delivery of our acquisition support needs will be of real benefit. We will ensure that DE&S will be suitably constructed to ensure the protection of UK national interests. In order to safeguard UK national security, the contracting entity and the operating company must be UK registered and the overwhelming majority of the contract shall be performed in the United Kingdom. In addition, there will be restrictions on passing information to parent companies. Potential contracting entities will need to satisfy the Ministry of Defence that they can meet the national security restrictions, which will include a number of areas where only UK nationals can have access to the information.

I hope that reassures my noble friend. I have several other pages of information on this issue. I do not want to labour the House with it but I am quite happy to discuss it with my noble friend in private.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, I join in the tributes paid and the condolences offered to the servicemen and servicewomen who have made the ultimate sacrifice for this country.

I welcome the publication of the White Paper, not least because it addresses in an open and discussive fashion a problem which, let us be honest, has bedevilled Government after Government of both political persuasions, although I suppose we must say now “all” political persuasions. I have one specific question only. It is not about the structure of the GOCO proposals, on which I am open minded, but about the underlying analysis. In doing so, I declare my interests, as registered, in the parliamentary, private and academic spheres.

The question is this: to what extent was the Government’s motivation based on the recognition that one of the key problems in procurement, giving rise to over-costs and over-runs in time, is the rapidity of cyclical innovation in cyber-related equipment? Put simply, 50 years ago, when we were dealing with the purchase of a platform, whether an armoured vehicle, an aeroplane or a battleship, the cycle of innovation of transformative and new products was 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. Now we are more concerned with what is on those platforms, not only the kinetics but the communication and the real-time analysis of situational awareness, and the cycle of innovation in that cyber-related procurement is something like 14 months. In other words, there is a cycle which occurs three times during the period of the normal procurement process. That on its own will not be solved by structural, managerial or contractual reformation. It would be interesting to know to what extent that was considered in the background thinking to the Government’s proposals.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot answer that question relating to cyber, although I am sure that it was a contributory factor.

We have set out clearly in the White Paper the reasons for how we got here. The noble Lord and his colleagues who have had responsibility for procurement in the past are well aware of the problems. He makes a good point about cyber and the complexities and cost of it now. It is very relevant to the subject.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I encourage noble Lords to keep their questions brief. We have only 20 minutes and quite a few people want to speak.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, I very much welcome my noble friend’s Statement. GOCO will certainly introduce commercial disciplines and the incentives that can be provided by the private sector.

I have two questions for him. How long does he think these contracts will run for? How many years are we talking about? Will a GOCO address the question of the affordability of major projects? As we know, in the past we have seen enormous amounts of equipment ordered, particularly by the previous Government, although clearly there was not any money to pay for it. Will this introduction of a GOCO improve that situation in the future?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the answer to my noble friend’s first question is nine years. The answer to his second question is yes. We are determined. We feel that the discipline that will be brought in by a GOCO will make everything much more affordable and we will not have the kind of fantasy world that defence procurement has had in the past.

[Lord Hutton]

My Lords, like my noble friend, I warmly welcome the thinking behind the White Paper that has been published today and the way in which the Minister introduced it. We want to reach a bipartisan approach because these are problems that all Governments have shared and wrestled with.

I do not believe, however, that all the problems can be laid at the door of DE&S. A great deal of the sad and sorry history of defence procurement is as much to do with decision-making in the MoD as it is with the execution of those decisions. I am pleased that Ministers have now addressed the MoD decision-making part of this problem and it is appropriate that we now look at the DE&S part. I welcome what the Government have announced today.

I have two specific questions for the Minister and I should be grateful if he could respond to them. First, what proportion of the defence budget is it envisaged will initially be given either to a GOCO or to the reformed DE&S organisation? Are the Government planning a big bang, with all of the defence budget going in one go, or are they planning to release chunks of it at a time? Secondly, will the Minister specifically address the point about the United States Government? There have been reports in the press recently that the US Government have entered their objections to the process, particularly in regard to establishing a GOCO. Can he confirm whether any such representations have been made to Her Majesty’s Government by the US Government?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support. I have read his excellent, well thought-through letter to the Economist. I share the noble Lord’s desire that this important subject should be above politics. The Secretary of State and my honourable friend the Procurement Minister are keen to brief Peers, individually or as a group, and to hear any suggestions, ideas or criticisms that anyone has. We want to get this right and, as the noble Lord said, it is above politics.

We have not yet decided the proportion of the defence budget but I will get back to the noble Lord when we have. As to the question about the United States, I have seen correspondence with our counterparts in Washington. There is a small amount of concern but they are approaching this issue in a positive way. They think that they could learn a lot from us. We will be the first country to do this. The noble Lord will be well aware of what happened down at Aldermaston. The United States feels that it has a lot to learn and has approached relations with us constructively. Again, I am quite happy to discuss outside the Chamber what the Americans have raised. On the whole, they have been very positive.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement and thank him and his officials for replying to some of the detailed questions that I raised in the Queen’s Speech debate. I had two specific questions for my noble friend. I asked what restrictions would be placed on the GOCO’s freedom to operate, specifically between buying off the shelf and sustaining our national strategic capabilities. The reply that I received is:

“As now, MOD and HMT will continue to approve procurement business cases. As part of this, MOD will assess and agree the proposed procurement strategy, which will enable the department to take issues such as these into account”.

If the MoD and HMT are going to second-guess what the GOCO is doing all the time, it is difficult to discern what freedoms the GOCO will actually have. Indeed, that is the very fundamental point of the GOCO.

Secondly, I asked what cognisance the GOCO would take of regional employment issues and the need to encourage SMEs, rather than support our major national contractors. The reply was:

“We have no reason to believe a GOCO would need to move the new organisation to different sites so it is unlikely to have any major impact on regional employment”.

With respect, I must say that that was not my question. I was not suggesting that the sites of the GOCO organisation or operation would have to be moved. I was asking whether the GOCO would be able to take into account the regional employment situations that arise in defence procurement. Will it have that flexibility?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the outstanding questions that he asked during the Queen’s Speech debate. There were quite a lot of them and I was not able to answer them at the time or we would have been here even later than we were. However, I took them back to the department and the officials there were impressed by the depth of the questions. I thought it might be helpful to the House to make copies of the questions and the answers, so I have brought along copies which I am happy to distribute afterwards to any noble Lord because my noble friend’s questions were spot-on. I hope that, apart from the one question that was not properly answered, we have made a big effort to answer all the other questions accurately.

Taking my noble friend’s second question about regional employment issues first, the proposal will not address any specific issues of regional employment policy. The policy on this, as with other matters, will remain with central government and the Ministry of Defence.

As for second-guessing the GOCO, my noble friend will be aware that we will need to make decisions about what the Armed Forces need and then the GOCO will see them through.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement from the Minister and I particularly welcome the bipartisan way in which he approached it. Does the Minister agree, however, that there is an internal tension in defence procurement because of the very length of time that any procurement takes? The aircraft carriers, for example, have been at the top of the agenda for about the past 14 years, so inevitably these issues go from one Government to another. However, the tension is between maintaining some competition in defence procurement and, at the same time, recognising the importance of protecting the jobs and skills that we wish to secure for the future.

I disagree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, said about commercial discipline in the private sector. That may at times be important, but when the private sector concerned is a monopoly private sector, that rather undercuts the argument.

The Minister referred to briefings that he proposes to hold on this issue. Will those briefings be comprehensive in the way that we address this issue? If so, some of the very important issues that have arisen today can be treated not in the rather eclectic way that we are bound to see when we have this sort of discussion, but methodically, so that those of us who have some experience in this field can make a real contribution to the debate?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the last point, I arranged a briefing—I am not sure whether the noble Baroness was there—at which the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology briefed noble Lords. He was hugely impressed by the depth of experience on all sides. He came to see me afterwards and asked if it would be possible to brief either individually or as a group. He is very keen to hear any suggestions and observations, and is aware that I am looking at noble Lords who have had huge responsibilities on this very subject in the past and know a great deal about it—a great deal more than I do. We are in the assessment phase. We are listening and learning and want to hear any suggestions. No decision will be made until next summer, so there is still plenty of time to hear what any noble Lord tells us.

Picking up on what the noble Baroness said, we obviously want to keep skills as far as possible and we feel that the GOCO would do that. We feel that of all the disciplines that it would bring to this, it would help to cut down the time taken for procurement. Taking the carriers as an example, with all the disciplines that it could bring, and being able to employ higher-paid people, it may be able to do things quicker. I do not want to take anything away from what DE&S has done—the noble Lord mentioned that—and I pay tribute to all the very hard-working civil servants and members of the Armed Forces who have worked there. However, they are constrained by Civil Service restrictions and we need to get more discipline and more incentive to get equipment for the Armed Forces quicker and more efficiently.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Following what the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, said, we are proposing a GOCO that may or may not turn out to be a monopoly. If it did turn out to be a monopoly, does my noble friend not agree that you are better off with a private sector monopoly than with a Civil Service one? Also, the prospect of competition being introduced after nine years will always be there, whatever happens to that GOCO.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are talking about two things. We are talking about the GOCO but also a single-source regulation situation. We feel that the disciplines that we would place on the GOCO would ensure that there is not a monopoly.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, could I add to my previous contribution lest noble Lords were confused by it? The innovation cycle of 14 months for digitally related equipment over a contract that may last, in the case of aircraft carriers, up to 14 years, means the constant demand for respecification of the initial contract to keep up with the latest and best. That, in my view, has contributed more than anything else to overruns and overcosts because they are a natural product of continual respecification.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. This is an area that the GOCO will have to struggle with—or if it is not GOCO, Civil Service-plus. I take on board everything the noble Lord said.

Afghanistan: Interpreters

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the light of recent reports of Taliban threats against Afghan interpreters who have worked with British forces, they will extend the targeted assistance scheme to enable these interpreters and their families to resettle in the United Kingdom on the same basis as Iraqi interpreters.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, we take any reports of threats towards our staff very seriously. We have in place a policy for investigating and dealing with intimidation of our locally engaged civilians, with specific measures aimed at reducing the risks they face from Taliban threats. We are looking carefully at how to make appropriate provision to support LECs as we end our combat mission. I expect to update the House on our formal policy later in the year.

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords, I appreciate that Answer. However, can the Minister explain why the Government felt able to offer Iraqi interpreters exceptional indefinite leave to enter the UK outside of the Immigration Rules but cannot do the same now for their Afghan equivalents? They have risked their lives doing a professional job for us and in many cases now live in hiding in fear of their lives. Why are our NATO allies, including the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Germany, all able to offer resettlement packages to their Afghan interpreters but we seem reluctant to do the decent thing by ours?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are looking very carefully at how we are going to make appropriate provision for LECs, incorporating the lessons that we learnt from Iraq. We will not abandon these people. We are conducting a review of our policy towards locally engaged civilians in Afghanistan as the scale of our presence there decreases. As I said, I expect to provide an update to the House on our formal policy later this year. As to our NATO allies, we are working very closely with them on this issue, especially the Danes. Not all NATO allies have made announcements on LECs. Among those who have, there is a wide range of schemes, including some which are similar to the intimidation policy that we are already implementing.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, how many of our interpreters have already been assassinated and how many have received death threats from the Taliban? Does my noble friend not think that there should be a moral obligation on all NATO allies to adopt a common policy in this respect to protect those who have been our faithful servants throughout our tenure of office in Afghanistan?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, 24 LECs have been killed while working for UK forces and 122 have been injured since 2006. As I said, we are in close contact with our NATO allies about how to take this matter forward.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister must, I am sure, believe that this is weasel wording and not good enough. How we behave towards these people is a question of trust and honour and this really is not good enough. It gives a very bad message for any of our forces in future operations about whether people should help them. We have to move forward rather faster and more certainly on this issue.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

As I said, my Lords, we will not abandon these people. It is a very complex subject. I have met a number of these people, as I am sure a number of other noble Lords have, in Afghanistan, and this relates not only to interpreters but also to people with other skills. Not all of them want to come to this country. Afghans are a proud people and some want to stay and use their language skills to help their country. If possible, we want to help them to do that. The Afghans will not thank us for removing some of their most able people.

[Lord Stirrup]

My Lords, good interpreters are crucial in a wide range of the operations that the UK Government seek to undertake. Does the Minister agree that we will find it increasingly hard to obtain the services of such interpreters if we are perceived to be discarding them when they are no longer needed? Doing the right thing too slowly can foster that perception. The Government’s current approach risks not only being unjust but actually being harmful to our future capabilities.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord makes a good point. As I said earlier, we will not abandon these people. The National Security Council met earlier this month to consider the issue and civil servants have been sent away to consider how best to deal with it. However, we will not abandon these people.

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, some 10 years after the invasion of Iraq we have been unable to deliver either stability or democracy. How confident is the Minister that in 10 years’ time we will not have the same sorry story to tell about Afghanistan?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I have been out to Afghanistan several times, as have other noble Lords, and each time the situation is a lot better than it was before. So we do have a good story to tell. I am very optimistic about the future of Afghanistan.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, under the last Government a settlement programme was agreed for Iraqi staff and their dependants. At the end of last year, the shadow Home Secretary called on the Government to offer a settlement scheme for Afghan interpreters who had helped and worked alongside British troops, in some cases suffering injury and now facing threats from the Taliban as our troops pull out. If someone now fears for his own and his family’s safety as a result of working with our soldiers and helping to fight for Britain’s long-term security, we should be prepared to act. Why is there any hesitation on the part of the Government when these are people who have surely been through the hardest citizenship test one could envisage?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there is no hesitation. We take our responsibility for all members of staff very seriously and have put in place measures to reduce the risks they face. Precautions are taken during recruitment and staff are fully briefed of any risks involved in their work before taking up employment. As I said, the Government are looking into this matter, and I hope to report back to the House later this year.

Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) Order 2013

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Astor of Hever]

That the draft order laid before the House on 14 February be approved.

Relevant documents: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 25 March.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces: Autonomous Weapon Systems

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I declare an interest as an adviser to Lockheed Martin, although not on its defence business. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom does not have fully autonomous weapon systems. Such systems are not yet in existence and are not likely to be for many years, if at all. There are currently a limited number of naval defensive systems that could operate in automatic mode, although there would always be naval personnel involved in setting the parameters of any such operation. I must emphasise that any type of weapon system would be used only in strict adherence with international humanitarian law.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is it the view of Her Majesty’s Government that there is a world of difference between a drone operated remotely from several hundred or thousands of miles away and one that is automatic and involves no human intervention before it discharges? In that context, will he tell us a bit more about the Mantis development by BAE Systems, which I understand is supported and funded by the UK’s Ministry of Defence, which the BAE Systems website describes as,

“Able to fly by itself, able to think for itself”?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. As I said in the original Answer, the UK complies fully with its obligations under national and international law, and that applies to autonomous weapon systems. However, although technological advances are likely to increase the level of automation in some systems, just as in non-military equipment, such as cars, the MoD currently has no intention of developing systems that operate without human intervention.

As for Mantis, the MoD initiated a jointly funded advanced concept technology demonstrator in 2008, which led to flight trials in 2009. The MoD has no current involvement in BAE Systems’ Mantis advanced concept technology demonstrator.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

Does my noble friend agree with the comments of a senior RAF officer who said very recently that come 2020 the Royal Air Force would be something like 50% manned aircraft and 50% VAV or drones?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, remotely piloted aircraft systems are likely to form part of the future force mix, as they may offer advantages in endurance and range. However, the dynamic complexity of fighter-versus-fighter-type missions does not favour remote control. Therefore, a wholly unmanned force is unlikely to be achievable or desirable in future. Studies suggest a likely combat air force mix of two-thirds manned and one-third remotely piloted in around the 2030 timeframe.

[Lord Rosser]

There is a perception that unmanned technology is shrouded in secrecy. Although the rules of engagement for unmanned aerial vehicles are the same as those for manned aircraft, there is surely a case for the United Kingdom taking the lead by considering having a code on the context and limitations of usage of UAVs to clarify the rules, given the significance and spread of this technology. Is this a point that the Government are considering or will consider?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I shall certainly take that question back to my department and get back to the noble Lord. We always make sure that equipment is used appropriately. Even after a weapon system is declared lawful, its use will still be subject to stringent rules of engagement governing its employment in the context and specific circumstances of the operation in question. Those rules of engagement as well as addressing legal issues can, as a matter of policy, be more restrictive than the applicable law.

[Lord Hylton]

Are unmanned aircraft and weapon systems included in the arms trade treaty now under negotiation? Is there not a great danger of proliferation?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot answer the first part of the noble Lord’s question, but I will write to him about that. As I said in my original Answer, these issues are very carefully considered, and what the noble Lord suggested is unlikely to happen.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister slightly confused me with one of his answers. Will he confirm that for anti-missile, close range anti-aircraft, and anti-torpedo reaction systems, there is considerable merit in going for an autonomous system, even if it has a manual override? From what he said it sounds as though we are not continuing to develop that capability. Is that correct?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in essence, an automatic system reacts to a limited number of external stimuli in the same way each time, just as automatic transmission changes gears when a car gets to a certain speed. Fully autonomous systems rely on a certain level of artificial intelligence for making high-level decisions from a very complex environmental input, the result of which might not be fully predictable at a very detailed level. However, let us be absolutely clear that the operation of weapons systems will always—always—be under human control.

[Lord Tanlaw]

Can the Minister say whether these machines contradict the first law of robotics in the sense that they identify and kill human beings? They are open to malfunctions, like any other machine, so is there not a great danger of this occurring at some future time?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I said in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, the United Kingdom complies fully with its obligations under both national and international law.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, in responding to my noble friend and to other noble Lords who have raised this Question, because it is so important will the Minister place copies of his answers in the Library?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, yes, I will certainly do that.