Defence: Treaties with France

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made earlier today in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

“First, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Sapper William Blanchard from 101 (City of London) Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), who died on operations in Afghanistan on Saturday. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends at this dreadful time.

The Prime Minister and President Sarkozy this afternoon signed two treaties that mark a deepening of the UK-France bilateral relationship. The two treaties will next be laid before Parliament, allowing honourable Members the opportunity to consider them as part of the process towards ratification. Separately, the texts of both treaties will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses today.

The UK-France relationship is a strategic partnership of sovereign nations working together to tackle the biggest challenges facing our two countries at a new level of co-operation. The treaties do not diminish in any way our ability to act independently when the national interest decides. They provide us with greater capability when we do decide to act together.

The UK has welcomed the recent French decision to rejoin NATO’s integrated military structure. We believe that this is good for NATO, good for the UK and good for France. It makes sense for us now to achieve maximum interoperability, greater commonality of doctrine and more efficient use of equipment. Closer co-operation with France will also provide better value for money for the British taxpayer.

Let me give the House a sense of the scope of both treaties. First, the Defence and Security Co-operation Treaty will develop closer co-operation between our Armed Forces, the sharing and pooling of materials and equipment, the building of joint facilities, mutual access to each other’s defence markets, and industrial and technological co-operation. The treaty provides the framework; details will emerge over time as more detailed work is done.

The second treaty covers collaboration in the technology associated with nuclear stockpile stewardship in support of our respective independent nuclear deterrent capabilities, in full compliance with our international obligations. The treaty provides for the joint construction and operation of a new hydrodynamics facility at Valduc in France and technology development centre at the Atomic Weapons Establishment in the UK. The facilities will be operational from 2015. This programme, named Teutates, will assist both countries in maintaining the safety and reliability of their respective nuclear stockpiles and improve expertise in countering nuclear terrorism.

The facilities will enable each country to undertake hydrodynamic experiments in a secure environment. The hydrodynamics facilities use radiography to measure the performance of materials at extremes of temperature and pressure. This enables us to model the performance and safety of the nuclear weapons in our stockpile without undertaking nuclear explosive tests.

The UK will maintain its independent nuclear deterrent, and will continue to work towards the long-term objective of a world without nuclear weapons.

Today’s summit is only the start of long-term deepening of the UK-France bilateral relationship. France is the UK’s natural partner in Europe for defence co-operation. France and the UK have some of the most capable and experienced Armed Forces and the largest defence industry. We are by a long way Europe’s two biggest defence spenders.

Achieving the envisaged level of co-operation will take time and will require changes to long-established ways of working. We will put in place measures to deliver long-term commitment to joint projects, and we expect to announce new areas of work at regular intervals.

A stronger defence relationship with France does not mean a weaker relationship with the United States, Germany, or any other partner but quite the reverse, as the increased capability and effectiveness that we will achieve through this co-operation will make us stronger partners. In the multilateral context also, our NATO allies and EU partners want UK and French forces, as well as those of other nations, to be as capable and interoperable as possible, which is exactly what the new programme of co-operation is intended to achieve.”

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[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s general support. With regard to his opening comments about the sapper who, sadly, was killed and his observation on the bravery of the soldiers of that regiment, I was honorary colonel of that regiment until May this year and I agree with everything that he said about the bravery of those men and women.

The noble Lord asked me about the meaning of “binding”. I confirm that all treaties are binding and that as a country we are fully committed. I will write to him about the opportunity to have a debate in order to look into this matter in greater detail. I agree that it is an important issue; indeed, it is close to my heart, so I would welcome that.

The noble Lord asked why Parliament was the last to hear. I point out that the Prime Minister made a Statement in the other place yesterday, in which he said:

“Tomorrow, the British and French Governments will sign new defence and security co-operation treaties, which will be laid before Parliament in the usual way. This follows the same principle: partnership, yes; giving away sovereignty, no”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/10; col. 615.]

Furthermore, the Prime Minister has also laid a Written Statement on the Anglo-French treaties at 12.30 pm today, which will appear in both Houses.

I understood that the noble Lord asked whether the United Kingdom is now giving priority to France over other EU member states. We are working more closely with all our allies; that was obviously one of the key arguments of the SDSR. We are collaborating closely with France because, with the UK, France has some of the most capable forces in Europe and it shares the UK’s level of defence spending and ambition. However, co-operation with our other European allies and partners is also vital and will remain a fundamental part of our approach. Existing co-operation will continue. For example, the UK/Netherlands amphibious force will remain in operation. We are also looking to increase bilateral co-operation with EU partners such as Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Spain, with which we have a history of close equipment or other defence co-operation. We will also increase our engagement with smaller and newer states in the EU.

The noble Lord asked about the UK/France nuclear collaboration and how it might affect the United States. We are satisfied that our proposals are fully compliant with our obligations under the mutual defence agreement and Polaris sales agreement with the United States. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have both made a commitment to renew the deterrent. It does not in any way reduce the independence of use of our deterrent.

The noble Lord asked whether the UK would have to join France if it decided to invade another country. The answer is no. Only a UK Government will ever decide when to deploy British troops, with whom and under what conditions. Article 5 of the treaty confirms that deployment and employment of the armed forces of each party remains a national responsibility at all times. Both France and the United Kingdom will continue to maintain a full spectrum of capabilities. This will allow us to deploy independently, should France choose not to be involved, and vice versa. Decisions by either country to support the other in an operation where only one is engaged will be taken nationally on a case-by-case basis.

I hope that I have answered most of the noble Lord’s questions. If not, I undertake to write to him.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. My noble friend will know that on many occasions I have argued for greater co-operation between Britain and France. Thus, I am very encouraged by the defence treaties signed today. According to media reports, the chief executives of BAE Systems and Dassault have written to their respective Governments, making the point that greater collaboration in the production of future combat aircraft and UAVs is absolutely vital. Does my noble friend not agree that, to make collaboration easier, there has to be greater consolidation between defence industries and, particularly, between British and French defence companies?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am well aware of my noble friend’s views on greater co-operation with the French, which I share. When we were in opposition, I went to France with the Secretary of State. We had a fruitful day’s discussion with French leaders, military and civilian, at the highest level. As far as the unmanned air systems are concerned, these have become central to both our armed forces. We have agreed to work together on the next generation of medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned air surveillance systems. Co-operation will enable the potential sharing of development, support and training costs and ensure that our forces can work together. We will launch a jointly funded competitive assessment phase in 2011 with a view to new equipment delivery between 2015 and 2020. In the longer term, we will jointly assess requirements and options for the next generation of unmanned combat air systems from 2030 onwards, building on work already started under the direction of the UK/France high-level working group. Over the next two years, we will develop a joint technological and industrial road map, which could lead to a decision in 2012 to launch a joint technology and operational demonstration programme from 2013 to 2018.

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, does the Minister understand some of the risks involved in what he has just been talking about? It is clear to everybody that our relationship with the United States makes what he has been talking about pale into insignificance. I have two questions. First, President Obama recently fired his Director of National Intelligence because he recommended that the United States should create with France the arrangements that have existed between us and the Americans for many years, whereby neither country engages in intelligence activities on the soil of its partner. Is it contemplated that we will engage in such an agreement with the French? Secondly, will the Minister be so kind as to tell us exactly what arrangements are being made with respect to our access to the research establishments of the American defence industry? This in my view is by far the most important element in the special relationship. I hope that I can have his assurance that nothing at all will be done to weaken that and therefore that the French will have to be told—will they not?—that we are going to share a whole lot of things with the Americans that we are not going to share with them.

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[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I say to the noble Lord that there are obviously risks in everything. The Opposition when they were in government had similar discussions with the French and I am sure that they would have come up with a similar arrangement to what we have come up with. I share the noble Lord’s views on relations with the United States. I have always expressed those views. In fact, I have just come back from Qatar. I spent all of yesterday with United States forces out there and admire absolutely everything that they do. I give the noble Lord the assurance that we will do nothing to weaken our relationship with the United States. There is nothing here that will weaken that relationship.

[Lord Maples]

My Lords, I wholly welcome the Statement. If the European arm of NATO is to mean anything, enhanced co-operation between France and the United Kingdom is very important, but the big problem that we both have is over procurement. We cannot afford the equipment that we want and neither of us has a good system for managing procurement projects. The history of this is not very encouraging. The French did not participate in Tornado or Typhoon, while the Horizon joint project to build a frigate—one of the simpler naval vessels—collapsed about 10 years ago because we could not agree on the shape of the hull. The acid test of this agreement will be whether we can make a joint procurement project work. The noble Lord has mentioned UAVs, but that seems to be a research project. Can he say when the first effort between the two of us to develop a major piece of military hardware together will occur?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is far too early to be that specific; the treaties were signed only this afternoon. However, all our weapons will need to be replaced at some point. The Typhoon and the Rafale will need to be replaced. There are huge areas where we can co-operate with the French. We start off with the UAVs.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I entirely endorse the comments by my noble friend on the Front Bench that Parliament should be the first body to be told of an important matter such as this, and it is not sufficient for the Minister simply to say that it was trailed by the Prime Minister in the other place yesterday.

However, I certainly welcome the progress that is being made in closer co-operation with our French neighbours. They are our closest neighbour, a good ally and, now that they have rejoined NATO, there is a great opportunity for us to work more closely together. In President Sarkozy we have the first President at the Elysée palace in my lifetime who does not have a problem with the British-American special relationship, and that is good. However, if closer co-operation with our French neighbours is to succeed, three elements are necessary. There must be political buy-in, military buy-in and a buy-in from the defence industries. There will certainly be a political buy-in, and I know that my colleague on the other side, the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, with whom I was recently at a meeting in Paris, agrees. I am also certain that there will be a buy-in from the defence industries. However, after St Malo, we saw that there was not always buy-in from the military. What steps will be taken to ensure that we get a military buy-in to this progress?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, a big effort will be made to get a lot more of our troops to learn French, which will be a good start. I meet a lot of French officers, sailors and air men and women in a lot of different ways, and they tend to speak brilliant English. I welcome anything that gets France back closer into NATO. As the noble Lord said, President Sarkozy has been very brave in bringing France back to the centre of NATO and I will encourage anything to see that that continues.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I asked a question earlier and I ask it again. My concern is on the military chain of command. For example, every officer in command and all troops in the British Army give an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen. Given these new circumstances, can the Minister put information in the Library as to how this will work? There could be commanding officers who have not made that allegiance to Her Majesty. In this day and age, we have to protect our soldiers to ensure that they never face a court martial because they understood that they were entitled to reject an order from someone from another country.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am quite happy to put that in the Library. This concern can be exaggerated. France and the United Kingdom have been in NATO together for many years, we have served happily together, and I remind the noble Lord that the French and the British fought successfully together in World War 1 and World War 2. In World War 1, we served under General Foch. My grandfather was a British commander-in-chief and he was very happy to take his orders from him.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

My Lords, can the Minister say a little more about the implications of strategic co-operation with France on maritime reconnaissance? Can he confirm that there will be a sufficiency of European sea and air resources to combat piracy off Somalia, and that, in particular, when the Nimrods come off the supply line, they will for the time being be mothballed, not dismantled?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the assurance on his last point regarding the MRA4, but I can assure him that we are working closely with the French on maritime reconnaissance and on how we can help each other on that. As regards piracy, we are part of the EU’s Operation Atalanta, which also involves other nations.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Lee, I have long been a strong promoter of the idea of greater defence co-operation with our European allies, particularly the French. When I was in government I started a number of initiatives along those lines, including the Mantis UAV programme, which I insisted on putting to the French. We made some progress on that before the election and I am glad that it is going forward.

Will the Minister confirm that as the deployment of the Armed Forces under this treaty will be a matter for national decision on a case-by-case basis, the treaty will do nothing to fill the enormous gaps created in our defence capability by the Government's strategic defence review? For example, the fact that we are not going to have any aircraft on our carriers for 10 years will not be compensated for by the fact that the French might be able to fly off the carriers, because they might decide not to take part in an operation that might arise, for example, to defend the Falklands, where purely British national interests are at stake.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord was not here when I read out the Statement. Having said that, I am aware of the part that he played in securing greater co-operation with the French. The noble Lord said that we would have carriers with no aircraft flying off them. The idea is that the aircraft and carrier will come in at the same time. We will put the cats and traps on the carrier when the JSF comes in, in 2019 or 2020.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I recall that, when I was a Minister for Defence a long time ago, the United Kingdom had a certain degree of dependence on the United States, and we were governed by fairly tight treaty arrangements for the maintenance of our so-called independent nuclear deterrent. There were limitations in particular on the sharing of knowledge. What happens to knowledge or material that the United States is prepared to share with us but with no one else?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is a very good question. I have reams of briefing on this and it would probably be better if I wrote to the noble and learned Lord in reply, because it is a technical question.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Is there not a danger of misunderstanding with the French on two matters? First, the French are notoriously nationalistic in their defence procurement. How will that square with what the Statement says about mutual access to each other's defence markets? Will the French alter their position, as they clearly have not done, for example, on rolling stock for the Channel Tunnel? Secondly, is there not a danger of a misunderstanding in terms of British and French attitudes? Throughout, the British have stressed independence and sovereignty and have not dared to whisper the name of the European Union. The French, of course, share a brigade with Germany, and will do nothing to stand in the way of closer co-operation within the European Union. Therefore, is there not a danger of misunderstanding, given our Defence Secretary's rather narrow, nationalistic views and the French view of how this will develop?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question, we are committed to improving access to each other's defence markets. This commitment is clear in the defence and security co-operation treaty. That includes opening up the French market. As for the French being nationalistic, we are aiming to deploy a combined joint expeditionary force, with UK and French forces operating side by side and with both countries engaged in the same theatre. However, a commitment to deploy UK forces will remain a decision for the British Government alone.

[Lord Boyce]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a non-executive director of WS Atkins. Does the Minister agree that there has been a certain amount of overreaction and hype with regard to some aspects of this initiative, especially naval co-operation? Does he agree that we have provided escorts with great success to the French carrier battle group, and vice versa, over the past 15 years or so? However, will he also acknowledge that he has been somewhat complacent when he says that we will maintain a full spectrum of capability to allow independent operations? This simply will not be the case with carrier strike when only one carrier is available. Does he agree that this will be an area of high risk in our ability to operate independently, and in the ability of the French to operate independently, when we are in a one-carrier situation? Does he agree that it is difficult to imagine how we will mitigate the risk in the years to come?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble and gallant Lord about the overreaction and hype. There are a lot of successes. I have been on a number of Royal Navy ships and have witnessed our personnel exercising very successfully with the French and indeed socialising with them afterwards. I have seen warm relations between the two navies; it is the same with the Royal Air Force and increasingly so with the Army. I am looking forward to witnessing Operation Flanders next spring, when our two armies will be exercising together in northern Europe. There are obviously risks in everything that we do, but we have considered this matter carefully and believe that the risk is manageable.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I am reassured by my noble friend saying that none of this will in any way jeopardise our close links with our allies in the United States. He talked about achieving better value for money for the British taxpayer. Does he believe that there will be any savings and, if there are, will they be retained by the Ministry of Defence? Furthermore, will some of those savings be used to retain our Harrier aircraft, which are vital to our defence capability?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I wish that I could give my noble friend the answer that he is looking for but, sadly, I cannot give him that assurance. As I said last week, this was a difficult decision. We looked at the matter very carefully. The decision to retire the Harrier fleet from next April was taken with the greatest reluctance and only because that was the military advice. As politicians, we have to accept military advice.

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords—

[Lord Soley]

I think that it is the turn of this side—my patience is being rewarded. I welcome the Statement and the two agreements, but I really do not like the spin on this and I should like the Minister to address that. The Statement goes on about our national interests and it is all put decoratively. However, the reality is that we are giving up some of our national individuality and we know it. If we look at this matter in the context of what has been happening in recent times, with far greater co-operation and involvement between British forces and European Union states, and indeed with the deployment for the first time this week of the armed European security police force on the borders of the European Union with full British support, there is an indication that we are moving, however slowly—perhaps over 10, 20 or 30 years—towards a European security defence movement. That is what is happening. This is just like the Tory party of the past when it said that the Single European Act and so on were nothing to do with European emergence. Will the Minister kindly drop the spin and recognise that that is the direction in which he is taking us?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I do not accept the premise that the noble Lord makes and I did not feel that I was putting any spin on the matter. I was simply trying to point out the reality of the situation.

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House whether the Government have any aspirations to extend this new relationship between the United Kingdom and France to any other countries in the world, be it the United States or other members of the European Union?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have always had excellent relations with the United States and I know that those will continue. We talk to other countries in the European Union and to our NATO allies at all times, but this Statement was about relations with France, which I very much welcome.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, will the noble Lord promise to put copies of all his letters in the Library?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

Yes.

Armed Forces: Refusal of Goods and Services

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Craig of Radley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that members of the Armed Forces are not discriminated against in the provision of goods and services in the United Kingdom, particularly while wearing their uniform.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, our Armed Forces are currently deployed to the most demanding areas of conflict to maintain our national security. I am sure the whole House will agree that there is no place for those who, without good reason, refuse to provide goods and services to service personnel wearing uniform. Where incidences do occur, it is mostly a local issue. Commanding officers have been given guidance on suitable action to resolve matters, based on engagement with the local community.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

I thank the Minister for that reply. He will have seen examples in news reports of servicemen in uniform being refused service, either in a hotel or when buying something in a supermarket. Is it not the case that the MoD now encourages servicemen to wear uniform? Are there any other such cases of unsuitable behaviour and discrimination being reported up the command chain? In opposition the Conservative Party talked about increasing the strength of the military covenant. Would this be a suitable vehicle for dealing with such discrimination?

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[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we encourage servicemen and women to wear uniform as much as possible. I am aware of the small number of incidences that were reported in the media, including the two mentioned by the noble and gallant Lord. All of us will remember the scenes and demonstrations in Luton during the homecoming parade of the Royal Anglian Regiment. Behaviour of this kind is unacceptable, but, in truth, it is rare, and the vast majority of the public support our Armed Forces enthusiastically. With regard to the noble and gallant Lord’s question on the covenant, we are looking carefully at the best way of ensuring that the covenant makes a real difference and that the Armed Forces community gets the respect and services it deserves. That means looking at all options, including legislation.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that if we are going to support people who are putting their lives on the line for our country, we should give them all the support we possibly can? Will he clarify to the House exactly what the legal status is if somebody is refused a service just because they are wearing the uniform of one of Her Majesty’s services?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, legislation would not necessarily address the problem, but we encourage commanding officers to engage as much as possible with the local community to prevent the sort of incident that my noble friend mentioned.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that publicity, shame and possible boycotts might be the most effective remedy for this? If, as he says, the Government are considering legislation, what form might that legislation take?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Government recognise the need to do more to ensure that our Armed Forces, veterans and their families have the support they need and are treated with the dignity they deserve. We are working on the covenant at the moment. It will be a new tri-service document setting out key, enduring general principles which can be applied to particular problems as they arise. It will be accompanied by more detailed material on what the service community can expect to see delivered.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, is it true that one of the incidents referred to by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, might have taken place in a supermarket? Can my noble friend confirm that the leadership and boards of directors of all the major supermarkets in this country are quite clear in the instructions and advice that they give to all their employees? If that is not being done, I hope the Ministry of Defence will address it and make sure that they play their part in ensuring that the covenant is fully observed.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. They are well aware of the issues here.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, while deeply regretting these incidents, could we not also celebrate those places where our Armed Forces are welcomed? As someone who lives near Thetford, in the middle of a battle area and near two Air Force bases, I often see our forces in our local stores, where they are very welcome. So we should regret this situation but also recognise that, across the country, many people rejoice in welcoming our Armed Forces.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree entirely with every word that the noble Baroness said.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, further to an answer that the noble Lord gave a few moments ago, is it suggested that the military covenant should now have legislative force? Should it become an Act? How does he see it in the future?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are looking at all kinds of options and hope to come forward with something either at the end of this year or early next year. We have not decided whether it will be part of the Armed Forces Bill, but we are looking at the issue.

[Viscount Brookeborough]

My Lords, I know that the Minister is aware of the situation for veterans and soldiers in civilian clothes as regards accessing medical care, but this is an issue within the Government’s control. Why is it that many GPs and GP practices are not aware of the fast-track assistance for soldiers and veterans, and why is it that we can track cattle and animals throughout Europe but we do not know where our veterans are?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Viscount and I have had a number of discussions on this issue, and it is an issue that we take very seriously. I hope to come back to him with more positive news on it soon.

Armed Forces: Harrier Fleet

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the savings resulting from the withdrawal from service of the Harrier fleet.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the family and friends of Corporal David Barnsdale, 33 Engineer Regiment (EOD), who was killed on operations in Afghanistan.

Turning to my noble friend’s Question, we expect to make savings in the region of £900 million between now and 2018, the Harrier’s previous out-of-service date. This figure is subject to commercial considerations and we expect it to be refined during implementation of the SDSR. The decision to retire the Joint Force Harrier has been very difficult and has not been taken lightly. I express my gratitude to the service men and women, past and present, associated with the Harrier force. This decision is in no way a reflection on the valuable contribution that they have made to the defence and security of our nation.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, first, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. To ditch the Harrier fleet and all the crew expertise that has been built up over the years for a saving of a mere £100 million a year and to denude our carriers of their aircraft and strike capability is surely madness and makes us look absurd in the eyes of the rest of the world. Perhaps we should consider getting rid of our flight decks and replacing them with sun decks. More seriously, would it not be possible to maintain a smaller fleet of Harriers for contingencies?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in a perfect world, no defence Minister would have wanted to retire the Harriers, but this decision was driven by the economic legacy left by the previous Government. Military advice has been that the Tornado is the more capable aircraft. The greater size of the Tornado force allows continuous fast jet support for forces in Afghanistan, which is highly valued by ISAF, and an ability to meet other contingencies. With regard to keeping a smaller fleet of Harriers, the withdrawal of an aircraft type delivers greater savings than partial reductions.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, we on these Benches join the Government in offering our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Corporal David Barnsdale, 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal).

I am sure that the whole House has sympathy for the Minister when he meets our allies and explains to them that we shall retain one carrier and build some carriers, but that we will not have any aircraft on them. I understand that HMS “Illustrious” may be retained and that we are committing to build two further carriers. Perhaps I can press him on what it would cost to retain a small fleet of Harriers solely to operate from those ships, which would retain our strike skills. We know that one or two fast jets over the battlefield have an enormous impact. We have the spares and we are going to pay the contractors—that is what the weasel word “commercial” means—and the Royal Air Force knows how to manage small fleets. Surely there would be space at one of the Tornado bases. What would it cost to take on board such a sensible compromise?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to the Dispatch Box as his party’s spokesman on defence. I very much look forward to working constructively with him.

We will add cats and traps to the carriers, and although that will delay the entry of carrier-strike capability by three years, it will allow us to use a carrier variant of Joint Strike Fighter which has a heavier payload and a longer range than the STOVL variant. Overall, the carrier variant of JSF will be cheaper, reducing through-life costs by around 25 per cent over the STOVL variant.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very fine comments about the Harrier force. No one would wish to see them go. Under the circumstances, where the choice has to be between Tornado and Harrier or more Tornados, surely the Tornado produces a better result, bearing in mind how many aircraft need to be supported in Afghanistan. Does the Minister recall that the Sea Harrier force was withdrawn some four years ago?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

Yes, my Lords, I recall that. The military advice is that the Tornado has a greater capability. The primary capability advantages of the Tornado GR4 over the Harrier GR9 include greater payload and range and integration of capabilities, such as Storm Shadow, fully integrated dual-mode Brimstone, the Raptor reconnaissance pod and a cannon.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, a number of us on these Benches have been RAF pilots who understand the decision that has been taken. However, the concern of many of us is to ensure that, in the future, there is training to ensure that when the new aircraft come on stream we have a stream of pilots capable of flying them. Can we be reassured that that issue, if not currently being addressed, will certainly be addressed in the not-too-distant future?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. We are working on that at the moment and we envisage working with our international partners to make that possible.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the decision to get rid of the Harriers and not the Tornados is bizarre and wrong. It is the most bonkers decision that I have come across in my 45 years in the military and I can assure this House that I have been privy to some pretty bonkers decisions in that time.

In terms of cost, if we remove the Tornado force, we would be looking at about £7.5 billion by 2018. With the Harriers, we are looking at less than £1 billion. In cost terms it does not make sense. We are told that the Harriers cannot do the job in Afghanistan. That is just not true; they can do it. Indeed, I have spoken to a lot of Army officers over the weekend who say that they very much value the particular capabilities of an aircraft designed for CAS to do that. We are removing a total capability.

This is not a party-political issue; it is crucial to the defence of our nation. I would like the Minister not to give a quick answer but to promise to go away to look at this decision. In terms of cost terms and capability, it absolutely does not make sense. There is nothing wrong in sometimes feeling that one has gone the wrong way. I ask the Minister to ensure that this is looked at again very quickly, because decisions are being made to remove a capability as we speak.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s admiration for the Harriers. We have had to make some very difficult decisions. Noble Lords should be reminded of the legacy that we inherited: a black hole in the defence budget of £38 billion. The last year of the Labour Government in which the noble Lord served saw the overspend in defence increase by £3.3 billion. That is the largest ever recorded increase. The top 15 equipment programmes are £8.8 billion over budget and have a cumulative delay of 32 years.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords—

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, we are pledged to defend the 14 Crown Dependencies, 13 of which are islands. They are scattered around the world and include the Falkland Islands. I welcome the retention of our expeditionary capability at brigade strength and the support that the Prime Minister expressed again for the Royal Marines in the other place on 19 October. From our shared experience, my noble friend will be aware that it is vital for amphibious troops to have fixed-wing air support. I hope that he can confirm to the House today that he and other Ministers in his department will continue to use all their influence to ensure that at all times British troops engaged in expeditionary operations will have British carrier-borne fixed-wing aircraft in support.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I share my noble friend’s admiration for the Harrier fleet, and wish that I was able to give him a more positive answer. None of our decisions taken as part of the SDSR reduces our ability to deter or defend against an attack on the Falkland Islands. In terms of combat air, the Falkland Islands are defended by Typhoon aircraft. We also have a range of further capabilities to deter any aggression, such as submarines.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords—

Employment: Defence Expenditure

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare a number of shareholdings in companies benefiting from defence spend.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, first, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the families and friends of: Trooper James Leverett, the Royal Dragoon Guards; Private Thomas Sephton, 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment; Bombardier Samuel Robinson, 5th Regiment Royal Artillery; Marine David Hart, 40 Commando Royal Marines; Major James Bowman, 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles; Lieutenant Neal Turkington, 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles; Corporal Arjun Purja Pun, 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles; Marine Matthew Harrison, 40 Commando Royal Marines; Marine Jonathan Crookes, 40 Commando Royal Marines; Sergeant David Monkhouse, the Royal Dragoon Guards; Senior Aircraftman Kinikki Griffiths, 1 Squadron RAF Regiment; Staff Sergeant Brett Linley, 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistics Corps; Corporal Matthew Stenton, the Royal Dragoon Guards; Lance Corporal Stephen Monkhouse, 1st Battalion Scots Guards; Sapper Mark Smith, 36 Engineer Regiment; Lance Sergeant Dale McCallum, 1st Battalion Scots Guards; Marine Adam Brown, 40 Commando Royal Marines; Lieutenant John Sanderson, 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment; Rifleman Remand Kulung, 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment; Sapper Darren Foster, 21 Engineer Regiment; Sapper Ishwor Gurung, 69 Gurkha Field Squadron, 21 Engineer Regiment; Lance Corporal Jordan Bancroft, 1st Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; Lance Corporal Joseph Pool, 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland; Captain Andrew Griffiths, 2nd Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; Kingsman Darren Deady, 2nd Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; Sergeant Andrew Jones, Royal Engineers; Trooper Andrew Howarth, Queen’s Royal Lancers; Corporal Matthew Thomas, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers; Rifleman Suraj Gurung, 1st Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles; and Sergeant Peter Rayner, 2nd Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment.

I turn to my noble friend's Question. The last available information, published in UK Defence Statistics 2009, estimated that 300,000 full-time jobs in the UK were supported by Ministry of Defence expenditure and defence exports: 155,000 directly and 145,000 indirectly. In addition, the MoD employed 177,840 service and 85,850 civilian personnel as at 1 July 2010.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, first I join these Benches in the earlier tribute, and also send the condolences of the whole House to the relatives and friends of Linda Norgrove.

I thank my noble friend for his Answer. David Cameron described the defence budget as,

“the biggest mess I've inherited as Prime Minister”.

The highly irresponsible decision of the previous Government to order the two aircraft carriers, recently and sarcastically described in the media as “HMS Unaffordable” and “HMS Impecunious”, when the MoD was effectively bust and before a defence review, has clearly skewed the current SDR, making it now even more financially rather than strategically focused. Will my noble friend tell the House whether defence contractors have been helpful in modifying or waiving their penalty clauses, given our overall national financial situation; and will he confirm the promise that we will get a defence industrial strategy by the first quarter of 2011?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the MoD's key suppliers have been working with the department on a commercial basis, looking at ways to improve innovation and cost reduction across the board in support of the SDSR. With regard to the second part of my noble friend’s supplementary question, I confirm that we are developing a new defence industrial and technology policy that is intended to replace the previous defence industrial strategy. We will launch this process on 2 November this year in an event co-hosted by ADS, the industry’s representative body, and there will be a Green Paper by the end of the year. After a formal consultation period in the new year, we will publish a White Paper next spring that will set out our industrial and technology policy for the next five years or until the next SDSR.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, from these Benches I join the Minister in paying tribute to all those who have lost their lives serving our country since the House met before the recess. For the families, there is overwhelming grief and sorrow at their loss and the pain of separation but also in each case pride at the brave and committed service given by the loved one they have lost. Our thoughts and prayers are with those bereaved families and with the colleagues and friends of all those who have died.

The Secretary of State for Defence in this self-proclaimed transparent Government appears to have written a secret letter to the Prime Minister on a matter of real public interest—namely, whether our Armed Forces will in future have the resources to continue to carry out the commitments we expect them to undertake. Does the Minister agree with his Secretary of State’s concerns that the strategic defence and security review is not really a genuine review of defence and security strategy but is instead everything to do with the Conservative Government’s spending review aimed at cutting costs, with inadequate regard for the consequences for private sector jobs in our industrial base and for our Armed Forces and their continuing ability to meet the onerous responsibilities we place upon them?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this is not just a Conservative Government; we are in coalition with the Liberal Democrats—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Astor of Hever]

In my department, that is working very well. The noble Lord mentioned the leaked letter. This was a private letter between the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, and for that reason and because it was a leak, I cannot comment. Both the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State are acutely aware of the sensitivities of such a review—a review made necessary because of the huge deficit that we have inherited and because there has been no defence review since 1998. However, I assure the noble Lord that this is not a crude cost-cutting exercise; it is a genuinely strategic review. We will establish clearly what the defence contribution to our security posture should be and structure our Armed Forces accordingly.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, during a strategic defence review, would there not be consultation with allies, with the academic world and think-tanks, and indeed with industry? Why has that not happened? Why has there been only one meeting of the Defence Industries Council since the election? How can you possibly take account of industries’ perceptions and views of, and insights into the future of, defence technologies and so on if you hold a consultation with them only after the review is completed?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have consulted a number of foreign countries which, indeed, have made representations to the SDSR. I know that the noble Lord is interested in France, which has, as an example, done that. Turning to industry, we understand how dependent localised economies are on the defence industry and we have engaged very widely with industry in this review. We invited and received submissions from industry and think-tanks, as well as from colleagues from defence establishments overseas.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Will my noble friend accept that he should take no lessons from the previous two noble Lords who spoke on this subject? Anyone who is familiar with the current defence situation knows that the way that the defence budget was left was a disgrace. Given the problems that the present Government now face in bringing some order out of the unfunded chaos that was left behind, he has everyone’s reasonable support at a critical time when we are at war in Afghanistan and when our forces need every support that they can get. My noble friend will have all reasonable support from reasonable people in tackling a very difficult situation.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that support. There will be painful changes and in some cases reductions, but I am very positive about the outcome. We have wonderful men and women in our Armed Forces and I have been hugely impressed by the dedication, commitment and innovation at work in the department. I have no doubt that, when the final decision is taken by the NSC, the country will come out of the SDSR with more adaptable, efficient and affordable Armed Forces, which are configured for 2020 and beyond.

Rural Communities

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Thursday 15th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords, I rise to speak in the gap because I was too late to put my name down for the debate last night. I shall be concise. I should like to declare the interests that I have put in the register.

I begin with the Commission for Rural Communities’ proposition that the uplands are an opportunity. That is because of the many changes taking place in the direction of the world—in digital technology, food security, the environment, climate change and tourism. I define rural communities in this context as being land-based, as opposed to being commuter-based near conurbations and towns.

The starting point for land-based areas in the UK is farming. Prosperous agriculture is the basis of prosperous uplands. We live in a controlled market for farming defined by the common agricultural policy, which is intended to take into account the public goods that it produces. In these circumstances, agriculture could perhaps accept that it should get the same rate of return on assets employed as the Treasury expects of government, while those engaged in agriculture should receive an equivalent at least of the minimum wage. Furthermore, as part of this, public goods should be paid for on a value basis, not a cost basis—after all, nobody expects Lucian Freud to sell pictures on the basis of the cost of materials and labour at an art teacher’s hourly rate.

The uplands contribute great value to tourism, ecology and the environment, and those should be recognised as the basis on which the rewards are distributed. The system that the Government deploy to deliver their policy requires complete overhaul, as we all know, which would save them and the farming community money. The development of digital technology provides huge new opportunities and I should be interested to hear what my noble friend the Minister has to say about that. I commend the initiatives of the honourable Member for Penrith and The Border. This is important, because this technology can improve the quality of life of those in the uplands and widen the scope of the business that can be conducted from them. In parallel, it is also vital that the planning policies recognise this change at the same time as honouring the requirement to protect—

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this is a time-limited debate. To enable both Front Benches to have their say, would the noble Lord please now give way?

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords, I have one more minute.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

No, you do not.

Afghanistan

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am repeating a Statement on Afghanistan: Update on Current Operations.

“Mr Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to update the House on our operations in Afghanistan. As the Prime Minister has said, we intend to make regular updates to the House.

As this is a complex subject, I have made maps available to assist honourable Members and will be happy to arrange further briefings at the Ministry of Defence, should Members find them useful.

The Prime Minister reminded us today of the ongoing sacrifices made by our Armed Forces in Afghanistan.

In the face of such losses, we should be in no doubt about the importance of the mission—particularly today, the fifth anniversary of the London bombings in 2005. It is vital to our national security that we have a stable Afghanistan which is able to maintain its own security and prevent al-Qaeda from returning.

As I made clear in Washington last week, we are a committed member of the international coalition of 46 countries in Afghanistan. We have a clear political strategy, and a clear military counterinsurgency plan to support it. The focus now is on delivering. And we can be confident that General Petraeus will build upon the considerable success of General McChrystal.

We face many challenges. Progress has been slower in some areas than others, particularly on the political side. We can expect success in counterinsurgency to be gradual, cumulative and hard-won. But there has, nevertheless, been considerable progress.

Through a UK lens, it would be easy to assume that all of Afghanistan is like Helmand. In fact, many parts of the country are largely secure, with low levels of violence. In Kabul, the Afghans themselves have assumed responsibility for security, and have proved themselves capable of dealing with the localised threats that have emerged. And we are making good progress on building up the Afghan security forces, so that this pattern can be repeated elsewhere. The Afghan army has been growing steadily over the years—by 20 per cent in recent months—to around 130,000 now.

We are playing our part, and the Government have recently approved the expenditure of up to £189 million on new surveillance, communications and logistics equipment for our bases, as part of our ongoing commitment to support the effective partnering of the Afghan security forces.

In southern Afghanistan, the story of this year has been one of the Afghans themselves increasingly coming to the fore in the fight against the insurgency.

In Kandahar, and under the direct oversight of President Karzai, Afghan security forces are leading operations as part of a rising tide of security in order to set the conditions for improved Afghan governance.

In Helmand, Afghan and ISAF forces have together succeeded in expanding the authority of the Afghan Government to 11 out of the 14 districts, by driving insurgent fighters out of the population centres of Babaji and Nad-e-Ali, while consolidating previous gains in Lashkar Gah, Now Zad, Nawa and Gereshk.

The situation in Marjah remains challenging, but counterinsurgencies are about progressively winning the confidence of the local people. The US Marines are well placed to succeed.

Elsewhere in central Helmand, where our presence is more established, we have seen considerable success. In Nad-e-Ali, British troops have been operating alongside the Afghans to secure the district centre and allow unfettered use of local roads. Improved security is allowing effective governance to flourish and trade to grow. In May, for example, around 3,000 Nad-e-Ali residents elected a more representative district community council.

ISAF now intends to reinforce this success. For that reason, I have accepted an ISAF request for a temporary deployment of elements of our Theatre Reserve Battalion, the 2nd Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment. The TRB is a standing force based in Cyprus which I have instructed should only be used for time-limited deployments to fulfil specific tasks. This deployment will meet those criteria. The additional forces will be used to give commanders additional flexibility to reinforce progress in central Helmand this summer. In a counterinsurgency campaign, the people are the prize. It is hugely important that we strike the right balance between the numbers of the civilian population and the size of the security forces available to protect them. The Prime Minister and I regularly argued in opposition that British troops in Helmand were too thinly spread and that we had insufficient force densities for effective counterinsurgency. That is why we welcome the arrival of over 18,000 US Marines, whose presence is allowing us to deliver a better and more realistic distribution of tasks within the international coalition.

As the House is aware, ISAF has already transferred security responsibility for Musa Qaleh and Kajaki to US forces, who are building on our achievements there. Lieutenant-General Rodriguez, ISAF’s operational commander, will today announce the next phase of this process.

ISAF intends to restructure its forces in Farah and Nimroz provinces so that it can consolidate a US Marine brigade in northern Helmand, which will assume responsibility for security in Sangin later this year. This will simplify current command arrangements and enable UK troops to be redeployed to reinforce progress in the key districts of central Helmand. The Theatre Reserve Battalion will then withdraw. The result will be a coherent and equitable division of the main populated areas of Helmand between three brigade-sized forces, with the US in the north and south, and the UK-led Task Force Helmand, alongside our outstanding Danish and Estonian allies, in the central population belt.

We have been closely consulted by ISAF and fully support this plan. In Sangin, UK forces have made huge progress in the face of great adversity. The district centre has been transformed. Helmand as a whole is a safer place as a result of our endeavours and sacrifices there. I pay tribute to those who have lost their lives in Sangin and to those who continue to serve there.

The operations in Afghanistan, although geographically distant, are of vital importance to our national security. On the ground, we continue to make progress. There will be hard days ahead, but the further changes I have announced today mean more manpower and greater focus for the key terrain of central Helmand. We have the right strategy and we are determined to succeed. I commend this Statement to the House.”

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and am very grateful for the Official Opposition’s broad support for our specific and general proposals. I absolutely agree with what he said about our excellent Armed Forces.

As the noble Lord will know from his time in government, there are questions that I am unable to answer from the Dispatch Box. I know he agrees that we must do everything possible not to put the lives of our service men and women at risk. However, I am happy to offer private briefings both in this House and in the Ministry of Defence, where we will be able to share with noble Lords more information than I feel comfortable revealing at this Dispatch Box. I have already written to some noble Lords from all parts of the House who I know are interested in defence, and I will be writing to others. We have two dates in the diary for briefing—one before the Summer Recess and the other immediately after we return.

If I do not answer all the questions posed by the noble Lord, I undertake to write to him. He pressed me on deadlines. We want to see the Afghans take control of their own security. They cannot do that yet, but as they are better able to do so, we will see our troop numbers come right down and our role will completely change. The process of handing provinces and districts over to Afghan control will take place on the basis of an assessment of facts on the ground, but we are clear that we need to make progress rapidly, and the coming 12 months are crucial.

The Prime Minister is very clear that there will not be British troops in a combat role or in significant numbers in Afghanistan in five years’ time. Of course, some troops could be there in a training role as part of wider diplomatic relationships, such as we have in other countries, but it will be nothing like what we are doing now. The bottom line is clear: we do not want to be in Afghanistan a day longer than necessary.

That is an internationally agreed objective. The G8 in Canada in June sent a collective signal that we want Afghan security forces to assume increasing responsibility for security within five years. I accept that in the short time we have been in office we have followed through on some of the previous Government’s work in Afghanistan. The money announced by the Prime Minister for counter-IED work is new money, as is the £189 million announced in the Statement.

The noble Lord pressed me about end of force rebalancing. As the Statement says, the force rebalancing announced today follows the additional 18,000 US troops deploying to Helmand. As the Defence Secretary has said, we were not in a position before now to make the changes without those additional ISAF troops. Further changes to what our troops are doing in Afghanistan will undoubtedly be required over time. The transition will need to take place gradually and we have already seen this with the moves started at the end of last year which saw ISAF troops work more closely with their Afghan counterparts under the embedded partnering approach. That approach is seeing ISAF and Afghan troops working together at every level, from soldier and policeman on the ground to Ministers in Kabul.

The noble Lord also asked whether we have a clear counterinsurgency plan. Yes, the plan is clear; it involves protecting the civilian population from insurgents, supporting more effective government at every level and building up the Afghan national security forces to take over that task for themselves.

[Baroness D'Souza]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to our forces fighting in the south of Afghanistan. We are told that this is a crunch year and that significant progress has to be made in Helmand and Kandahar. It is, however, difficult to know what significant progress looks like and, therefore, whether it can be achieved.

I spent last weekend in Kabul talking with a wide range of people, including MPs, academics, teachers, university students, parents, schoolchildren, craftsmen and NGO representatives. Consistently and vociferously two views were expressed: first, the fear of the relentless advance of the Taliban from the south and now in central provinces, and seemingly moving rapidly towards Kabul and the north; and, secondly, the development in the 12 months since I was last there of an astonishingly strong anti-foreign feeling. The rationale, briefly put, is that billions of dollars worth of aid has not helped infrastructure which is deteriorating by the day. I am talking about roads, schools, health and public services of any kind, while unemployment, violence and the Taliban threat are increasing day by day.

What plans do the Government have to make a serious effort to insist that all multilateral, bilateral and NGO aid is co-ordinated, accounted for and directed towards genuine capacity-building involving Afghans? Does the Minister agree that if that were achieved there would be an alternative support structure for people, particularly in rural areas, who would in turn be more likely to reject the Taliban, which ultimately would be a more productive route?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question, and I of course share her admiration for the excellent work that our Armed Forces are doing. Why are we there? In two words: national security. Our forces are in Afghanistan to prevent Afghan territory from again being used by AQ as a base from which to plan attacks on the UK and our allies. Because Afghanistan is not yet capable of securing its territory without the presence of UK and international forces, al-Qaeda would return to Afghanistan, and the threat to this country would rise.

What are we trying to achieve? Afghanistan is not yet strong enough to look after its own security. The presence of NATO forces is preventing al-Qaeda and the Taliban regime from returning while we train Afghanistan's own security forces to take over that task themselves. The noble Baroness made the point that we need to do much more about redevelopment and leaving a legacy in the country. I absolutely agree. I can confirm that DfID, the FCO and the MoD are stepping up their efforts to discuss those issues together, along with our ISAF partners and the Afghans themselves.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that there is a great welcome for his offer of briefings on these matters? We face a critical situation, and if there is one duty that we owe to our Armed Forces and those engaged in Afghanistan, in the extremely challenging task that they are conducting so courageously, it is to ensure that Parliament and the people back them to the hilt. People must understand what is happening. No one in this House was under any illusion, even before the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza: we are at a critical moment. There is definitely a balance here. We must ensure that we move speedily on the counterinsurgency strategy, to make that as effective as we can, with the additional United States reinforcements and what my noble friend has announced today, and couple that with political progress. Time is not on our side, and we need to move fast.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the latter issue, of course I agree with my noble friend. It is important that Members of this House, as well as of the other place, are properly briefed on difficult issues in Afghanistan, especially when our strategic defence and security review is taking place. I mentioned that, after the Statement, I will have a series of briefings in the Ministry of Defence. I have asked the Chief of the Defence Staff and the three other chiefs to come to give noble Lords the benefit of their wisdom. We will do that on a rolling basis. My door is always open to any noble Lord who wants to talk to me about Afghanistan or any other issue.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement, and particularly the implication that there will be an increased counterinsurgency effort. The redeployments make sense in achieving that. I am, however, concerned about the additional redeployment from Cyprus. The Minister mentioned that that would be temporary. Bearing in mind the extreme stresses that there have been on the Armed Forces, can he indicate what “temporary” means and whether those ground forces are being supported by additional air and other assets, which will be essential to their role?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his question. I asked officials the same question, but I was told that I could not say more than “temporary”. I assure the noble and gallant Lord that it will be temporary. I add that there is still a company of our Armed Forces in Cyprus, so there will still be soldiers in reserve out there. They will be supported by a number of additional support troops, but I do not think they will be supported by aircraft.

[Lord Soley]

I am also in favour of briefings, and I welcome that offer. What plans do the Government have to combat the assumption that is already creeping into some aspects of the British media that British troops have had to leave the area because of casualties and so on? The barely hidden implication is that these casualties have been in vain because we have had to leave. This has happened before. We need a powerful media strategy to convey to the British media that when these military changes take place, there are good, rational reasons for them and they are not about being driven out, having to move out, giving in to the Americans or whatever. We need to get that message over. It may be one of the things the Minister ought to consider in his offer of briefings.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. As the Secretary of State said in his speech in the other place, he is inviting the editors of all the national newspapers and other media to his office to give them a briefing in the hope that they will take a more positive line on the responsibilities we have out there. I look forward to seeing the noble Lord at some of the briefings that I am looking forward to having. I remember the happy times we had together in Afghanistan last year.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, in relation to building up Afghan capability, in a Written Answer, my noble friend indicated to me that something like 129 UK personnel were involved in training an embryonic Afghan air force. Is any of that training being done in the UK? Secondly, we know of the tragic loss of life among our service personnel in Sangin. Can he indicate how many have been severely wounded in that province?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord those figures, but I will get hold of them and write to him. The international community, including this country, is helping to develop the Afghan National Army, which includes the ANNAC, so that they are able to provide security for their own country. It includes the UK-led international combined airpower transition force, which is working to build a 3,300 member, 48-aircraft ANAAF as part of a long-term effort to give the country a self-sufficient air force. The UK’s contribution to NTNA is currently approximately 129 personnel, with one attached to the ANNAC as a rotary wing mentor. There is a small number of Afghans in this country on staff training courses, supported by English language training.

[Lord Myners]

Can the Minister give the House some comfort by pointing to a precedent where it has been sensible for a Government, when their soldiers are at war, to indicate their intention to withdraw at a pre-stated date and to examples of where that has been in the best interests of our fighting forces?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I point out to the noble Lord that we are part of an international ISAF organisation and we have done this with the agreement of our partners. I feel comfortable with that decision.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

Was the Minister responding to the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord King, when he spoke of the need to pursue a political track? He spoke of the need to win the counterinsurgency and to pursue political progress. In the light of what the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, told us, it seems very important to envisage serious contacts and negotiations with all parties inside Afghanistan and a framework that involves all the regional powers and Afghan’s neighbours, including the Chinese, the Russians, the Kyrgys, the Kazakhs, the Iranians and the Pakistanis.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. We will not bring about a more secure Afghanistan by military means alone. Insurgencies usually end with political settlements, not military victories. As the Prime Minister said, as for talking to the Taliban, a process of reconciliation and reintegration is taking place where Taliban who are prepared to stop fighting and accept the basic tenet for the Afghan constitution can be reintegrated back into society. That should happen. That political track which runs alongside the training of the Afghan Army and the military surge is vital, as is talking to the neighbours surrounding Afghanistan.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow]

My Lords, from a British perspective progress in Afghanistan is often measured through the lens of Helmand. Will the Minister give us a view as to whether he considers that this is a fair reflection of the security situation across the whole of the country?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is easy to look at Afghanistan as just Helmand province, but large parts are at peace without any problems. We have to look at the country as a whole.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

Let me bring the noble Lord back to the point made by my noble friend Lord Myners. I do not think that my noble friend was referring to the current arrangements, which we all understand are ISAF arrangements on which there has been a broad area of agreement in your Lordships’ House. My noble friend was asking what precedent there is for announcing a withdrawal by May 2015. It is that that is causing so much worry because it is thought to give people on the ground who are harming our troops—al-Qaeda, the Taliban and others—a target date by which they know we will be gone. It is that precedent that we would like the noble Lord to address.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there are always events. What the Prime Minister has said was an aspiration, to which we very much hope that as a country we can keep, although we could be overtaken by events.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, since 2001, and certainly over the past four years, despite shortages of manpower and helicopters, the courage, stamina and commitment of our troops and our allies are beginning to bring peace and stability to the people of Afghanistan. As Sir Richard Dannatt said this morning on the “Today” programme, for at least some years to come, we require a critical mass of fighting troops to sustain our contribution to the alliance. I hope that the Minister can assure the House that the strategic defence review will not lead to cuts in numbers of our essential fighting troops; namely, the 3rd Commando Brigade Royal Marines from the naval service and seven infantry brigades from the Army. The policy of restraint is undoubtedly correct. It is, however, easier to preach than to practise. It demands heroism, self-discipline and patience of the highest order. It also demands considerably more manpower.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Secretary of State has made it clear that Afghanistan remains our top priority and that our people in theatre will get the best possible support. A counterinsurgency needs strategic patience and we are committed to seeing the mission through to resolution, thus creating a stable enough Afghanistan to allow the Afghan people to manage their own internal and external security.

My noble friend mentioned equipment. We are providing an additional £189 million from the Treasury reserve for equipment, together with up to £67 million for the counter-IED campaign announced by the Prime Minister. With regard to helicopters, as mentioned by my noble friend, we now have the upgraded Lynx helicopters, which have been fitted with increased fire power and more powerful engines to cope with the hot and high Afghan flying conditions. They join the Chinook, Merlin, Apache and Sea King helicopters out there.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, the Statement contains the sentence:

“In a counter-insurgency campaign, the people are the prize”.

Quite rightly, my noble friend Lady D’Souza has drawn attention to the impact of what is happening now on the Afghan people. There was a well publicised operation to replace and repair equipment on the Kajaki dam. The electricity supply in Kandahar is said to be worse now than it was under the Taliban. What is being done to put these right because that sort of progress—making things better—must convince the people that what we are doing is helpful and right?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question. As I understand it, work on the dam, although it is of a high priority, is now considered a lower priority than other work. It will be taken on, but maybe not for another year or 18 months. However, it is very much in the sights.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I apologise for speaking when I was not able to be here for the Statement, but is the noble Lord aware that there are two precedents which I think the noble Lord, Lord Myners, and the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, were seeking? One is Aden, which is a very unhappy precedent, and the other is the withdrawal of our forces from the Persian Gulf at the end of 1971. A precise date was given and it actually ended very happily.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that history lesson and for being able to think on his feet more quickly than I was able.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, we all want to see the Afghan Government take more control over their own decision-making and, crucially, to earn the respect and confidence of the Afghan security forces so that the Afghan Government can exercise effective leadership and command over their own forces. Will the forthcoming conference in Kabul be able to make a contribution to this?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Afghan Government will set out the further steps they will take to build upon this momentum at the Kabul conference. They will present their priorities, which are to bring about improved security, economic development, better governance and development for Afghanistan. This will enable the international community to ensure co-ordinated assistance in common support of the Afghan Government and will be a further step in the ongoing process of robust and public monitoring of the progress made.

[The Earl of Shrewsbury]

My Lords, what efforts are being made to encourage the Pakistani armed forces to take greater responsibility for Taliban activity south of the border with Helmand?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, Pakistan is fully engaged in a military campaign, although its efforts have been focused in the main on quelling the Pakistan Taliban. We are using key leader engagement at the most senior military level—the Chief of the Defence Staff, the Chief of the General Staff and CINCLAND—to develop relations with the military leaders of Pakistan with a view to increasing our influence and to establish a mutual understanding of the wider impact of security challenges in south Asia. At the request of the Government of Pakistan, this country is assisting in developing the capacity of the frontier corps in the north-west of the country via some targeted training under a US-led programme.

EU: European Defence Agency

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will continue their membership of the European Defence Agency.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the family and friends of Corporal Jamie Kirkpatrick, 101 Engineer Regiment, who was killed on operations in Afghanistan on 27 June. All those who have died on operations are sadly missed, but this loss is particularly poignant for me as I have just handed over as honorary colonel of 101 Engineer Regiment.

On the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for the time being we will continue to participate in the European Defence Agency but, as part of the work on the strategic defence and security review, we are reviewing all aspects of our defence engagement with international institutions, including the EDA, to ensure that it matches the UK’s priorities and interests.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his first Question Time on the government Bench and mourn with him the loss not only of the brave soldier he mentioned, but of the others. On the Question, he will be aware that last September, Dr Liam Fox, then the opposition spokesman, said in terms to a US magazine, Defense News:

“If it’s possible, we would like to withdraw from the EDA”.

Has that not proved possible? Is there not a signal here that the Government are spoiling for a fight with the European Union, and indeed may be converging with the policy pursued by the Labour Government?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words. Our manifesto pledged that we will re-evaluate our position with the EDA and we are not spoiling for a fight with the European Union. Once the work of re-evaluation takes place, we will provide an Explanatory Memorandum setting out more fully the Government’s policy on the EDA. Although NATO remains our most important strategic relationship, this does not mean a reduction in co-operation with our European partners, but we are clear that the EDA must prioritise its use of resources to focus on the key capability challenges now and in the future.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I join those on these Benches in the tribute. Whatever the merits of the EDA, does not my noble friend agree that the major prize in European defence co-operation would be serious co-operation between us and the French? In this regard, can I ask him whether there were serious discussions about this with President Sarkozy when he came over here? If so, what were the conclusions?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the recent meetings between the Prime Minister and President Sarkozy re-emphasised the considerable amount of bilateral defence activity between the United Kingdom and France. Their discussions also highlighted the shared ambition to increase the level of defence co-operation. France’s reintegration into the NATO command structure can only deepen this relationship.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, we on these Benches also offer condolences to the family and friends of Corporal Jamie Kirkpatrick. I am not sure what the Minister’s answer is to this Question. Are we re-evaluating or are we still contemplating withdrawal from the European Defence Agency? Surely, in these difficult times in Europe, more co-operation is needed in Europe. Surely, if we do withdraw from the European Defence Agency, as mooted by the Conservatives before the election, it will be the triumph of doctrine over common sense.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, just to make it clear, our manifesto did not say that we are leaving the EDA, merely that we would re-evaluate our position, and that is our position now. The EDA is the only forum that simultaneously seeks to promote armaments co-operation, improve the European defence industrial and technological base, and promote collaborative defence research. But we remain concerned that the EDA is not yet delivering the full benefits and improvement goals that it has set itself.

[Lord Hylton]

Has the voluntary code of conduct on defence procurement produced tangible benefits or results yet, and have the 40 research and technology collaborations produced something worth while?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I do not have a great deal of briefing on that issue and I shall write to the noble Lord. On the second part of his question, my understanding is that they have produced a great deal.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister recognise that there is a strong link also with the WEU? Has he anything to say on that matter and on the involvement of Members of this House and the other place in its working?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the presidency of the Western European Union announced on 31 March that the signatories to the modified Brussels treaty had decided to terminate the treaty, thus effectively closing the organisation, with WEU activities ceasing preferably by June next year. We remain committed to inter-parliamentary debate on the common security and defence policy which the WEU assembly currently performs. We continue to examine the options for inter-parliamentary scrutiny of CSDP and will report to the House in due course.

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen]

My Lords, I express my sympathy for the death that has been announced and recognised here today. Let us all hope that that death will not be in vain and that we continue to fight in Afghanistan for what we know is right in order that all these deaths will be seen to have been in the right cause.

I congratulate the Minister on his statement today about the European Defence Agency. It seems to have escaped the noisy pre-election rhetoric about European co-operation and about this agency, which was initiated largely at the behest of the previous Government. Given the likely outcome of the Comprehensive Spending Review and the reductions in the defence budget, we must as a country—as, indeed, must all European countries—look to collaborative projects to get the kind of defence equipment that will be required for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his congratulations. I very much take on board what he has said and I will take it back to my department.

Gulf War Illnesses

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Morris, on securing this further debate on illnesses in Gulf veterans and I thank him and other noble and noble and gallant Lords for taking part. The noble Lord has been a long and true champion of veterans and the wider disabled community, and I am proud that 40 years ago, my late uncle, John Astor, was one of the architects, along with the noble Lord, of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970—the Alf Morris Act. The noble Lord has raised the sensitive issue of Gulf veterans’ illnesses on a number of occasions and many in the veterans community hold him in high esteem, as I found out when I was privileged to hold a number of honorary positions with the Royal British Legion.

The first duty of Government is the defence of the realm. We have a moral responsibility to look after those in our Armed Forces, particularly when they are prepared to risk life and limb on our behalf. So let me begin by setting out the new coalition Government’s priorities in this area.

As the Prime Minister has said, we want to create an atmosphere in which we as a nation back, revere and support our military. There has never been a formal document setting out precisely what this means, and that is why for the first time this Government will create a tri-service military covenant. The Prime Minister is passionate about this. It will be the foundation of the new Government’s far-reaching strategy for and obligations to our service men and women, their families and, of course, veterans. It is long overdue. More broadly, we will ensure that the Armed Forces have the support they need and that veterans and their families are treated with the dignity they deserve. It is important to set out the broad principles that drive our approach and how this Government will go further.

Let me turn now to the specifics of Gulf veterans’ illnesses. As the noble Lord would expect, I have gone into this matter in some detail with officials. The Government are open-minded on the issue of the illnesses reported by some veterans of the 1990-91 Gulf conflict. Our priority is to ensure that Gulf veterans who are ill do receive appropriate medical care. Gulf veterans with concerns about their health should seek a referral to the Ministry of Defence’s Medical Assessment Programme at St Thomas’ Hospital. This facility gives free and speedy general and mental health examinations by an expert doctor with great experience of veterans’ health issues. The MoD pays the travelling expenses of attending veterans and will also arrange overnight accommodation for those travelling long distances. Over 3,500 Gulf veterans have used this service, where each individual receives an examination and clinical tests, dependent on their case.

The service provided by the Medical Assessment Programme remains popular with those who attend. Indeed, the programme provides valuable back-up support for the Department of Health and the devolved Administrations who, with support from the MoD, are running six community health pilots for veterans at NHS trusts across the country. The pilots, which will be evaluated later this year, will provide key input into planning future provision across the NHS. Financial support for veterans and their dependants is provided through the Ministry of Defence war pensions or Armed Forces occupational pension schemes. For those veterans who need additional support, the Veterans Welfare Service exists to provide help and advice to veterans, their families and dependants.

To date the MoD has spent around £9 million in funding expert independent medical research on Gulf veterans’ illnesses issues. This research has come to the same conclusion as the independent Medical Research Council report from 2003 which looked at all the UK and international research into these issues—namely that,

“there is no evidence from the UK or international research of a single syndrome related specifically to service in the Gulf”.

As recommended by the Medical Research Council, one area where we are looking specifically at the needs of Gulf veterans is rehabilitation. We are spending £430,000 on specific research into rehabilitative therapies for those with persistent symptoms. We expect this work to conclude in 2012.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Before the noble Lord leaves the question of causation, I hope he will come back to the point made so clearly by the noble Lord, Lord Morris, that we now know the answer on causation from the much more extensive research carried out in the United States.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am coming to the United States reports in a while. Lessons identified from the 1991 conflict have been implemented for other operations. So far there has been no similar problem with unexplained illnesses.

The noble Lord, Lord Morris, was the first British parliamentarian to be co-opted on to a US congressional committee of inquiry into Gulf War illnesses. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government are well aware of the interest in the publication of the United States Institute of Medicine update on the Health Effects of Serving in the Gulf War, published in April, and that of the US Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses, published in 2008. We look forward to seeing the US authorities’ comments on the reports before commenting in any detail from the UK perspective. Indeed, we understand that the US Department of Veterans Affairs has formed a task force specifically to look at the Institute of Medicine updated report and to make recommendations. Defence Ministers, particularly myself, and officials will consider any findings carefully.

We are aware of the frustration that some feel with the pace of work associated with these reports but they address complex scientific and medical issues. We have noted, however, that the Institute of Medicine report mirrors the findings of the Medical Research Council review of research into UK Gulf veterans’ illnesses published in 2003. In particular, the Medical Research Council review recommended giving priority to research aimed at improving the long-term health of Gulf veterans with persistent symptoms.

We further note that the Institute of Medicine report supports the international majority view and the MoD’s long-standing position that NAPS tablets given to service personnel and OP pesticides are not the cause of ill health reported in some Gulf veterans. This should be reassuring to UK Gulf veterans concerned about such health issues.

Noble Lords and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, will be aware that the MoD’s vaccines interactions research programme, costing some £4.5 million, was an in-depth examination of the potential adverse health effects of the combination of medical countermeasures administered to troops in the 1990-91 Gulf conflict. The overwhelming evidence from the programme was that the combination of vaccines and tablets offered to UK forces at the time of the conflict would not have had adverse health effects. This programme has been the subject of a level of scrutiny far in excess of what might be expected in similar research. As well as peer review prior to publication, all stages of the study were overseen by an independent panel of experts and veterans’ representatives.

I know that exposure to OP pesticides during the 1990-91 Gulf conflict is of concern to some veterans. The MoD continues to monitor ongoing research in this area through its involvement in the Official Group on Organophosphates, chaired by Defra. Although the effects of acute exposure to OP pesticides are well understood and undisputed, no such incidents occurred during the deployment of UK troops to the Gulf in 1990-91, although OP pesticides were undoubtedly used.

While we are always willing to consider credible new evidence, the overwhelming consensus of the scientific and medical community is that there are too many symptoms for the ill health reported by Gulf veterans to be characterised as a syndrome according to the strict medical definition. However, MoD reviewed the position on its use and accepted it as an umbrella term, addressing the concern of those veterans who feel that the link between their service and their illnesses has not been adequately recognised.

We know that this does not go far enough for some, but we believe that we must take an evidence-based approach. The medical and scientific evidence published so far does not support the claim that veterans of the first Gulf conflict are suffering from a specific illness that differs from those experienced by individuals who served elsewhere.

Data from the medical assessment programme continue to support the results of the independent research. Gulf veterans seen as part of the programme complain of similar symptoms to the general veteran population, and most should be cared for by standard NHS resources. No unusual pattern of disease has emerged, nor is there evidence of unusual neurological or other disorders among Gulf War veterans. The same high standard of medical care and treatment is therefore as appropriate for them as it is for all veterans.

Gulf veterans, like other veterans, have access to a wide range of support: medical support at the medical assessment programme, financial support for any injuries caused by service and practical support through the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency welfare service. We are undertaking further research to offer tailored rehabilitation support. There is insufficient credible evidence to suggest that we should treat this group differently from other groups of veterans who report similar health problems.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Morris, is not going to go away. I give him a commitment today that I am happy to meet him with officials to hear any concerns that he may have. I thank him for raising his concerns again—concerns that affect people who have sacrificed so much on our behalf, and to whom we owe a great deal. I assure him that the Government are committed to helping them through treatment, rehabilitation and research. We also reaffirm the moral obligation to treat those who serve, their families and veterans with fairness and dignity.