(14 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lee of Trafford
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the savings resulting from the withdrawal from service of the Harrier fleet.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the family and friends of Corporal David Barnsdale, 33 Engineer Regiment (EOD), who was killed on operations in Afghanistan.
Turning to my noble friend’s Question, we expect to make savings in the region of £900 million between now and 2018, the Harrier’s previous out-of-service date. This figure is subject to commercial considerations and we expect it to be refined during implementation of the SDSR. The decision to retire the Joint Force Harrier has been very difficult and has not been taken lightly. I express my gratitude to the service men and women, past and present, associated with the Harrier force. This decision is in no way a reflection on the valuable contribution that they have made to the defence and security of our nation.
Lord Lee of Trafford
My Lords, first, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. To ditch the Harrier fleet and all the crew expertise that has been built up over the years for a saving of a mere £100 million a year and to denude our carriers of their aircraft and strike capability is surely madness and makes us look absurd in the eyes of the rest of the world. Perhaps we should consider getting rid of our flight decks and replacing them with sun decks. More seriously, would it not be possible to maintain a smaller fleet of Harriers for contingencies?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, in a perfect world, no defence Minister would have wanted to retire the Harriers, but this decision was driven by the economic legacy left by the previous Government. Military advice has been that the Tornado is the more capable aircraft. The greater size of the Tornado force allows continuous fast jet support for forces in Afghanistan, which is highly valued by ISAF, and an ability to meet other contingencies. With regard to keeping a smaller fleet of Harriers, the withdrawal of an aircraft type delivers greater savings than partial reductions.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, we on these Benches join the Government in offering our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Corporal David Barnsdale, 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal).
I am sure that the whole House has sympathy for the Minister when he meets our allies and explains to them that we shall retain one carrier and build some carriers, but that we will not have any aircraft on them. I understand that HMS “Illustrious” may be retained and that we are committing to build two further carriers. Perhaps I can press him on what it would cost to retain a small fleet of Harriers solely to operate from those ships, which would retain our strike skills. We know that one or two fast jets over the battlefield have an enormous impact. We have the spares and we are going to pay the contractors—that is what the weasel word “commercial” means—and the Royal Air Force knows how to manage small fleets. Surely there would be space at one of the Tornado bases. What would it cost to take on board such a sensible compromise?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to the Dispatch Box as his party’s spokesman on defence. I very much look forward to working constructively with him.
We will add cats and traps to the carriers, and although that will delay the entry of carrier-strike capability by three years, it will allow us to use a carrier variant of Joint Strike Fighter which has a heavier payload and a longer range than the STOVL variant. Overall, the carrier variant of JSF will be cheaper, reducing through-life costs by around 25 per cent over the STOVL variant.
Lord Craig of Radley
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very fine comments about the Harrier force. No one would wish to see them go. Under the circumstances, where the choice has to be between Tornado and Harrier or more Tornados, surely the Tornado produces a better result, bearing in mind how many aircraft need to be supported in Afghanistan. Does the Minister recall that the Sea Harrier force was withdrawn some four years ago?
Lord Astor of Hever
Yes, my Lords, I recall that. The military advice is that the Tornado has a greater capability. The primary capability advantages of the Tornado GR4 over the Harrier GR9 include greater payload and range and integration of capabilities, such as Storm Shadow, fully integrated dual-mode Brimstone, the Raptor reconnaissance pod and a cannon.
Lord Naseby
My Lords, a number of us on these Benches have been RAF pilots who understand the decision that has been taken. However, the concern of many of us is to ensure that, in the future, there is training to ensure that when the new aircraft come on stream we have a stream of pilots capable of flying them. Can we be reassured that that issue, if not currently being addressed, will certainly be addressed in the not-too-distant future?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. We are working on that at the moment and we envisage working with our international partners to make that possible.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the decision to get rid of the Harriers and not the Tornados is bizarre and wrong. It is the most bonkers decision that I have come across in my 45 years in the military and I can assure this House that I have been privy to some pretty bonkers decisions in that time.
In terms of cost, if we remove the Tornado force, we would be looking at about £7.5 billion by 2018. With the Harriers, we are looking at less than £1 billion. In cost terms it does not make sense. We are told that the Harriers cannot do the job in Afghanistan. That is just not true; they can do it. Indeed, I have spoken to a lot of Army officers over the weekend who say that they very much value the particular capabilities of an aircraft designed for CAS to do that. We are removing a total capability.
This is not a party-political issue; it is crucial to the defence of our nation. I would like the Minister not to give a quick answer but to promise to go away to look at this decision. In terms of cost terms and capability, it absolutely does not make sense. There is nothing wrong in sometimes feeling that one has gone the wrong way. I ask the Minister to ensure that this is looked at again very quickly, because decisions are being made to remove a capability as we speak.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s admiration for the Harriers. We have had to make some very difficult decisions. Noble Lords should be reminded of the legacy that we inherited: a black hole in the defence budget of £38 billion. The last year of the Labour Government in which the noble Lord served saw the overspend in defence increase by £3.3 billion. That is the largest ever recorded increase. The top 15 equipment programmes are £8.8 billion over budget and have a cumulative delay of 32 years.
Lord Burnett
My Lords, we are pledged to defend the 14 Crown Dependencies, 13 of which are islands. They are scattered around the world and include the Falkland Islands. I welcome the retention of our expeditionary capability at brigade strength and the support that the Prime Minister expressed again for the Royal Marines in the other place on 19 October. From our shared experience, my noble friend will be aware that it is vital for amphibious troops to have fixed-wing air support. I hope that he can confirm to the House today that he and other Ministers in his department will continue to use all their influence to ensure that at all times British troops engaged in expeditionary operations will have British carrier-borne fixed-wing aircraft in support.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I share my noble friend’s admiration for the Harrier fleet, and wish that I was able to give him a more positive answer. None of our decisions taken as part of the SDSR reduces our ability to deter or defend against an attack on the Falkland Islands. In terms of combat air, the Falkland Islands are defended by Typhoon aircraft. We also have a range of further capabilities to deter any aggression, such as submarines.