Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) Order 2013

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord Astor of Hever]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that is has considered the Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) Order 2013.

Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am introducing this legislation, which provides access to additional benefits for service and ex-service personnel who are entitled to a new benefit, to be known as the Armed Forces independence payment, or AFIP, which is to be introduced on 8 April this year. The new benefit is another example of the Government delivering our commitment to uphold the Armed Forces covenant. The Armed Forces covenant has two basic principles: that those who serve in the Armed Forces and their families should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens; and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most, such as the injured and the bereaved.

Only recently the Government announced that they would make £6.5 million available to spend on latest-generation prosthetics. We are also improving rehabilitation services across the country for service personnel and veterans who are amputees. We are putting in place support and help for those who have suffered serious injuries in the line of duty, and AFIP will further enhance that support. It is important that we introduce AFIP and make sure that those most seriously injured receive this support.

In my mind, there are three key features. First, AFIP will provide ongoing financial support for the most severely injured. They will not have to be assessed or reassessed to access these payments. Secondly, this will simplify and streamline the support that service and ex-service personnel receive. It means that additional support can be offered based on an assessment already performed under the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme. Thirdly, all recipients will receive £134.40 per week, which will be tax-free and not means-tested. PIP will also be tax-free and not means-tested.

To explain the need for the order, it may be helpful if I provide some background to the new payment. In July 2012, the Prime Minister announced that the Government would simplify and enhance the financial support system for members of the Armed Forces who have been seriously injured, as part of the measures to uphold the Armed Forces covenant. Since that time, my department has been working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to consider how such support could be designed. This close co-operation resulted in the design of AFIP.

At the initial design stages of AFIP, we sought feedback from ex-service organisations and charities via the Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation. This was to ensure that we had input from those who represent in-service and ex-service families and the bereaved. Those whom we contacted included the Royal British Legion, the War Widows’ Association, the British Limbless Ex-Servicemen’s Association and Combat Stress, as well as service members. The feedback received was valuable and helped inform the final design of AFIP.

Who will get this new benefit and the additional access to benefits that will accompany it? All service and ex-service personnel seriously injured since 6 April 2005 will be eligible. To clarify, the “seriously injured” are defined as those awarded a guaranteed income payment of 50% or more under the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme. It is important to note that AFIP will cover those with both permanent physical and mental injuries caused by service. It is the level of AFCS award that provides eligibility for AFIP. No additional assessment is undertaken and no further reassessment is required. This will provide ongoing financial security for the most severely injured. All those eligible will receive a flat-rate, ongoing payment of £134.40 per week. This will be tax-free and will not be means-tested. AFIP is to be introduced on 8 April this year. Seriously injured service and ex-service personnel who claim AFIP cannot also claim other disability benefits from the Department for Work and Pensions, including disability living allowance, personal independence payment and attendance allowance, no two of which can be claimed at the same time.

Other disability cost benefits, such as personal independence payment and disability living allowance, are used to provide access to a number of other benefits, schemes and services that are offered by other government departments, devolved Administrations and local authorities. These are often referred to in this context as passports. To ensure that AFIP recipients also have access to these additional benefits, we are bringing forward two packages of consequential amendments. The majority of these consequential amendments are to secondary legislation and so will form a package of regulations that was laid on 18 March this year. As for PIP, these included Motability, jobseeker’s allowance, legal aid, NHS costs, working tax credit, child tax credit, housing benefit and the council tax reduction scheme.

However, to establish access to three important passports, we are required to amend three other parts of primary legislation. That is what we are here to debate today. These minor but important legislative changes are in respect of carer’s allowance, Christmas bonus and the seatbelt exemption for medical reasons. The legislative change in respect of carer’s allowance will ensure that those who provide valuable support to seriously injured members of the Armed Forces in receipt of AFIP have access to DWP’s carer’s allowance, which will be £59.75 from April 2013. This change will specifically make provision for those who devote their lives to supporting our seriously injured people, providing some financial support for doing so. It is only right that a person caring for an AFIP recipient should have access to carer’s allowance.

As for the Christmas bonus, these provisions will ensure that all recipients of AFIP automatically qualify for the tax-free, lump sum Christmas bonus, which is paid annually by the Department for Work and Pensions. In cases where the injured serviceperson requires, on medical grounds, an exemption from wearing a seatbelt, the individual must hold a valid certificate of exemption from compulsory seatbelt wearing. Only a medical practitioner may issue this certificate. This amendment will enable the medical practitioner to seek reimbursement from the Department for Transport for the cost of medical assessment that is required in these cases. As I have set out today, these three minor, but important, new provisions are designed to ensure that our most seriously injured service and ex-service personnel are able to access the additional benefits and schemes that they deserve.

AFIP is another example of the Government’s commitment to uphold the Armed Forces covenant and deliver tangible benefits for members of the Armed Forces and veterans. AFIP will provide ongoing financial support for the most severely injured service and ex-service personnel on the basis of their Armed Forces Compensation Scheme award without assessment or reassessment. Furthermore, AFIP will provide them with passports to additional benefit schemes and services that are offered by other government departments, devolved Administrations and local authorities. The Government will track the progress of AFIP and will report on its implementation in the Armed Forces covenant report towards the end of 2013.

It is important that we address these issues, meeting the principles at the heart of the covenant, and that is why we propose to bring in AFIP for members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are seriously injured. I hope that the Committee will therefore be happy to consider the order this afternoon.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive explanation of the background to, and purpose of, this order. We support the principle of the Armed Forces independence payment, which is to be paid to those who have been most seriously injured, as well as the order that we are now considering and the access to the three important passports, to which the Minister referred. However, there are one or two points on which I should like clarification.

When the order was discussed in the other place earlier this month, the Minister of State, Mr Mark Francois, said that at the initial design stages of the Armed Forces independence payment, the Government sought feedback from ex-service organisations and charities via the Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation. He went on to say that the feedback received was valuable and helped to inform the final design of AFIP. However, paragraph 8 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which covers the consultation outcomes section, indicates a degree of division among the key ex-service organisations. It states that, while the organisations recommended change to only the eligibility criteria, they,

“disagreed with each other, some considering the eligibility criteria too narrow, others too broad”.

Therefore, I simply ask whether we are now in a situation where the ex-service organisations and service personnel have agreed on the eligibility criteria for the Armed Forces independence payment.

As the Minister said, the payment will be £134.40 a week, tax-free. As I do not think that it is in the documentation, can the noble Lord indicate how many seriously injured service and former service personnel are expected to receive AFIP, and how much more these personnel will receive each week with AFIP compared with the allowances or payments that they currently receive? Can he also indicate what the total additional cost per annum of AFIP will be compared with the cost per annum of the payments currently being made to the most seriously injured service and former service personnel in question?

However, I conclude by reiterating our support for the principle of the Armed Forces independence payment and for the order that we are now considering.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I hesitate to come in on this as it is not normally an area in which I would intervene, but I declare a previous interest as an ex-member of the Armed Forces Pay Review Board. I have a couple of questions to ask the Minister. He gave the definition of “seriously injured” and then went on to say, “50% or more”. Did I understand correctly that that is what qualifies someone for this allowance? The thought occurred to me that, inevitably, it is a bit of a cliff-edge assessment. If someone got to 49.9% there could be a problem, although that may not be the case.

The other aspect that I am interested in is the fact that an impact assessment has not been prepared for this instrument. There might be a perfectly rational response to that but, given the complication and the way in which this interacts with other legislation, I should have thought that even if it is not available now, there should be an impact assessment at some time.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this has been an interesting, short debate on a matter of great importance to the Armed Forces. I have tried to keep up with all the questions but if I cannot answer all of them I will write to noble Lords.

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the Opposition’s support for the order. The first question was on eligibility. As far as I am aware, the four charities from which we have had responses still differ with each other on eligibility. I have the issues on which they disagree, which are not very serious. Rather than reading them all out, I am happy to share them with the noble Lord afterwards. There is nothing of major importance. One of the main issues was on the definition of “seriously injured” in relation to the disability.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the net additional cost of AFIP. It is £134.40 per week—the same level as the maximum rate available under the personal independence payment. He asked how many people will benefit from the arrangements. Approximately 700 individuals are currently eligible to claim AFIP and we estimate that approximately 100 service and ex-service personnel each year will become eligible for it.

My noble friend Lord Addington asked whether we will feed what we have learnt from this into the issue of general benefits. I do not have an answer but I will write to him on that. The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked why the figure of 50% was chosen. The Armed Forces Compensation Scheme awards a lifelong income stream of 50% or higher of income pension for serious injury.

Putting in place provision to ensure continued support for those seriously injured while in the Armed Forces remains a key component of the military covenant. AFIP is an important change, showing the Government’s commitment to upholding the Armed Forces covenant. It is only right that we provide financial support for those most seriously injured and AFIP will do that.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I asked why no impact assessment had been done on this instrument.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I do not have an immediate answer but I will write to the noble Lord.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces: Pay

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, earlier today my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced in the other place that we would fund an increase in X-factor, so this recommendation will now also be accepted. This will be welcome news for service personnel and their families who should receive the increase with their May pay. This positive response to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body recommendation also emphasises the importance and the respect that the Government accord to the views of the review body.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, that is of course very welcome news, although I think it would be a shade fanciful to think that a topical Question could so rapidly change the Government’s mind. Nevertheless, because there has been a delay, can the Minister assure the House that the pay uplift will be made available on time in April, or will it be delayed and have to be backdated? I hope that the Government will do everything they can to ensure that it does not have to be backdated. Will this additional pay be available to full-time mobilised reservists as well as to service personnel?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, service personnel will receive the increase from 1 May onwards. I understand that it is the general policy of all Governments not to backdate, to avoid adding complexity and risk to normal administrative operations. The noble and gallant Lord asked if the uplift in X-factor will be paid to mobilised reservists. X-factor is paid at the full level—currently 14%—to all ranks up to and including lieutenant-colonel or equivalent in the Regular Forces, full-time reserve service personnel on full commitment and mobilised reservists.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, the Government have made as nifty a U-turn as a London taxicab on implementing the X-factor supplement recommendation. Yet the contract for the chairman of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, Alasdair Smith, is not being renewed. He said that, because of the late decision and the time needed to make another appointment, his successor will miss the first half of the year’s programme of work, including all the visits to members of the Armed Forces that are a hugely important part of the role. That statement indicates that this was a sudden decision by the Government, made following receipt of the pay review body’s recommendations at the end of January, since just over two weeks later Alasdair Smith was told that he would be finishing at the end of this month. In view of their hasty U-turn, will the Government now offer Professor Smith a further term as chairman? After all, he will have the confidence of members of the Armed Forces since he upheld the independence of the pay review body—or is that the problem?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there is no link between the Prime Minister’s decision not to reappoint Professor Smith and the increase in X-factor. The Prime Minister’s decision not to extend Professor Smith’s appointment represents broader government policy regarding no automatic right to reappointment to non-departmental public bodies such as the pay review body. The decision is in line with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies. An interim chair, John Steele, has been drawn from the remaining members of the AFPRB until a formal replacement can be appointed.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, from these Benches I also welcome the inclusion of the uprating in the X-factor payment. However, what remit did the Government set for the Armed Forces Pay Review Body before it started work on its most recent report?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the remit for the 2013-14 pay round and the Armed Forces Pay Review Body’s terms of reference are contained within its 2013-14 report, copies of which are available in the Library of the House. The report also includes a letter to the body from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in which he provides details of the Government’s approach to public sector pay for the 2013-14 pay round.

[Lord Magan of Castletown]

My Lords, will my noble friend explain to us in detail what exactly the X-factor supplement is?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the X-factor was introduced in 1970 and is paid as an addition to base pay. It is paid to reflect the relative disadvantage between the conditions of service experienced by members of the Armed Forces over a full career and conditions in civilian life that cannot be taken directly into account in assessing pay comparability. Those factors include danger, discipline, turbulence, separation and liability for duty at all times.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the noble Lord’s reply to my noble friend’s question. I heard him explain that it was perfectly within normal procedure for a contract not to be renewed, but I missed his answer as to why the contract had not been renewed in this case.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I said that the decision is in line with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies. The Government believe that the habit of automatically renewing those appointments has to stop. We need to bring fresh blood into jobs such as these.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on the Government’s decision to send HMS “Daring” to Australia for the centenary of the Australian Navy. That leaves us with 18 escorts for the rest of the world. Does not the Minister agree that 18 is far too few and that we need to get going on the order for the Type 26 ship?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord has used great imagination to bring HMS “Daring” into this Question. I have been preparing for the X-factor this afternoon, not HMS “Daring”.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, during the passage of the Armed Forces Bill last year, we discussed the question of the Armed Forces covenant. We were given to understand that the Statement made by the Secretary of State for Defence each year on the covenant would be taken in this House, giving us an opportunity to ask questions about it. That did not happen. I suspect that if it had, my noble and gallant friend’s Question could have been put earlier. Will the Minister undertake that in future years the Statement on the Armed Forces covenant will be taken in this House?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am always ready to come to this House for any Statement. It is not always our call; in many cases it is the Opposition’s decision whether to accept the Statement.

Defence: Procurement

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2013 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, for securing this debate to discuss the important issue of defence procurement. It is a privilege to wind up in such an informed debate, and I am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, was not able to speak, because I always enjoy hearing his contributions.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The Minister is very kind. I was not intending to intervene in his speech, but I take this opportunity to apologise to the Committee for having got the timing so badly wrong and arriving late for this debate, which I thought was going to start a little later than it did.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

The noble Baroness suggested that we should have another debate on this issue, and I would very much welcome that. A lot of noble Lords have mentioned the GOCO issue in particular. When the situation is clear on that, maybe we could return to it in a more detailed debate.

Today’s debate provides me with an opportunity to explain our policies and priorities for defence procurement and to set them in the wider context of our ongoing defence transformation programme. The noble Baroness has spoken many times in support of our Armed Forces and demonstrated her steadfast concern for the welfare of our service men and women and their families. I know that those concerns are also shared by other noble Lords here today, so I start by paying tribute to the men and women who serve in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, who provide the ultimate guarantee of our security and independence. That is also why defence procurement, particularly defence equipment acquisition and support, is vital. We need to be able to adapt and configure our capabilities to address tomorrow’s threats and to build more agile forces for the future. Support operations will always be our first priority.

Our approach to defence acquisition is a key element in delivering military capability and ensuring future operational success. The Government’s strategic priority remains to bring the national deficit under control. In defence, we must play our part in meeting that objective. However, we must also meet the commitment in the 2010 strategic defence security review to deliver well resourced and well equipped Armed Forces. To achieve that, the Ministry of Defence is in the process of delivering its largest and most far-reaching transformation programme. We are reforming defence procurement to ensure that we do it better in future and derive better value for money from the defence budget in so doing. We continue to contribute to the goal of reducing the deficit by looking for ways to conduct our business more efficiently, and expect to make £13.5 billion of efficiency savings over 10 years.

As announced in May last year, we have addressed the black hole in the defence budget. Through implementing changes flowing from the SDSR, we have brought the budget into balance. That means that, for the first time in a generation, our programme is affordable within the resources that we expect to have available to us. It provides a necessary foundation for our future approach to defence procurement and the implementation of the reforms recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Levene.

Having established a core equipment programme last year, we are now concentrating on its delivery. We will spend around £160 billion on equipment over the next 10 years, covering our current commitments, the major equipment programmes announced in the SDSR, and deterrent and equipment support costs. In January this year, we published for the first time a detailed summary of our equipment plan, setting out priorities and budgets for equipment procurement and support over the next 10 years. This was accompanied by a National Audit Office assessment of its affordability, and we are delighted that, in its report, the NAO recognised the progress that we had made in putting in place the changes needed to achieve and maintain affordability.

The core programme delivers the major force element set out in the SDSR. This, with the headroom and contingency provision that we have built in to protect the programme from emerging risks, will provide us with the flexibility to determine our procurement priorities in accordance with operational priorities and not simply on the basis of immediate affordability. It will also provide the defence industry with greater clarity on which to plan for the future.

Through the equipment plan we will deliver significant enhancements to our fighting capabilities, including completion of the two Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, significant investment in the Lightning II aircraft—which together will provide a high-end power projection capability for decades to come—completion of the Astute class attack submarine programme, an upgrade to our fleet of Warrior infantry fighting vehicles, continued development of the Scout and significant enhancements to air transport through the new A400M aircraft.

Our first priority for defence procurement has therefore been to establish a solid foundation from which we can deliver the necessary capabilities for our Armed Forces to do their job. We have made good progress in this and, as an ongoing priority, will continue to apply rigorous management to ensure that the budget remains in balance in the years to come.

I would highlight that the latest NAO Major Projects Report, published in January this year, stated that annual cost increases for our 16 biggest programmes in the financial year 2011-12 were only one-seventh of what was in the comparable report two years earlier. Although we have much more to do, we are moving in the right direction.

We have also sought to reform our approach to how we conduct procurement. In February last year, the Government published their White Paper, National Security Through Technology. This provides a framework for equipping our Armed Forces with the best possible capabilities that we can afford through the equipment plan and, in so doing, for achieving the best possible value for money.

We will seek to fulfil the UK’s defence and security requirements through open competition in the domestic and global market and buy off the shelf, where appropriate, to take full advantage of the competitive international market. However, where capabilities are essential to our national security, such as nuclear submarines and complex weapons, we will seek to protect our operational advantage and freedom of action. We will also maintain our investment in science and technology. In taking this approach, we recognise the important part played by the UK defence industry. Our policy, through the White Paper, is designed to provide the catalyst for making UK industry competitive and therefore able to win a large proportion of additional orders within the global market through successful exports. A healthy and competitive defence industry in the UK is able to sustain many UK jobs and thus make a vital contribution to growth and a rebalanced economy. We are also opening up opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises. In the last financial year, some 40% of contracts by volume were awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises, and there is scope for this to increase still further.

Looking to the future, reforming the acquisition system is a key priority and a core element of our work to transform defence. We will take a major step forward in April, when the new defence operating model goes live and the newly empowered service and joint forces commands assume responsibility for setting equipment and support requirements. This is an important part of our work to implement the recommendations of the defence reform report of the noble Lord, Lord Levene.

Major structural reform of defence equipment and support organisation is also central to this process. It will ensure that we have the structures, management and skills necessary to deliver the right equipment to our Armed Forces at the right time and at the right cost. Preliminary work undertaken to date has identified a government-owned, contractor-operated entity known as GOCO as the preferred future operating model for defence equipment support. This needs to be tested further before any final decisions are made. A decision will be made shortly on whether to move into an assessment phase. If agreed, this would see the GOCO model tested against a robust public sector comparator. This would work towards producing a final business case that will recommend a future operating model for defence equipment and support. We would expect a decision to be made in 2014.

A lot of very important questions were asked. I will do my best to answer them, but I am conscious that I may not be able fully to answer all of them, so in some cases I will write to noble Lords in more detail. The noble Baroness and other noble Lords asked about GOCO and whether a compelling case had been made for reform. Proposals for an assessment phase are currently being considered. If approved, the assessment phase will involve developing GOCO options through negotiations with potential private sector partners. A robust public sector comparator will be developed in parallel. As I said, a decision will be made shortly.

The noble Baroness asked whether a final decision on GOCO had been made. The answer is no. We are currently considering whether to move into an assessment phase that will allow us to make a comparison between GOCO and an in-house comparator. It will look at how far defence equipment and support can be improved in the public sector. The noble Baroness also asked about our allies’ views on GOCO. We are working closely with our international partners to assess the impact of any potential changes and will continue to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, asked whether one partner could cope. We envisage that there is likely to be a consortium to cover a diverse range of activities. He asked whether there was an appetite in the private sector. We have engaged with potential partners throughout, and they seem keen. He asked about bankruptcy and falling short. We will ensure that procurement activity does not collapse.

The noble Baroness asked whether there was a government plan to ensure both skills and an affordable programme, and what new skills would be required. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about skills and apprenticeships. For defence equipment and support, we are ensuring that we have the necessary skills to ensure that safety is not compromised. We place the highest priority on filling safety-critical posts with suitably qualified people. We continue to recruit apprentices, for example in the field of engineering, to continually refresh our skills base and ensure that we will have the right skills in future to support our Armed Forces.

The noble Baroness asked about the 1% rise from 2015. This applies to the equipment part of the budget, which is 40% of the overall defence budget. It is not a 1% year-on-year increase from 2015. We have taken what we thought was adequate for the equipment budget and increased it by 1% from 2015. The equipment programme is now affordable within available resources.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked about science and technology. A White Paper, National Security Through Technology, recognises the importance of science and technology. The Government are committed to sustaining investment in science and technology at a minimum of 1.2% of the defence budget. The publication of our 10-year equipment plan will enable industry to plan future investment with greater confidence.

I have run out of time. I am aware that I have not been able to answer every question, but I will write to noble Lords.

Committee adjourned at 6.04 pm.

Armed Forces: Reserve Forces

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made towards achieving the projected increase in the size of the United Kingdom’s reserve forces.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the first year of the Future Reserves 2020 programme has been about stabilisation and understanding. The number of inquiries about reserve service has increased, and early indications are that strength is stabilising. We recently conducted a public consultation to ensure that the right relationships were established between reservists and their families, their employers and the Armed Forces. We intend to publish a White Paper in the spring that will set the conditions to deliver the reserve force strength we require.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, the future strength and capability of our Armed Forces is dependent on increasing our Reserve Forces to 30,000 by 2018, yet the Territorial Army has declined by 1,000 over each of the last three years. In the year up to this March, it looks as though the number of recruits will be well below target. A Federation of Small Businesses survey showed that even among members who are open to employing reservists, two out of every five believe that the Government’s future requirement that reservists serve and are away from their civilian jobs for one year out of every five would negatively impact their business. What action do the Government intend to take to accelerate recruitment to our reserves; what incentives will be given to employers to hire reservists; and what protection will be given to reservists to prevent them being discriminated against in respect of both hiring and promotion?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we acknowledge that this is the start of a challenging programme to reshape our Armed Forces. We inherited Reserve Forces that were in decline and not being used in the most cost-effective way. What we are setting out to do is sensible and achievable, and the planned strengths are well within historic levels. However, we are not complacent, and we are already running a major recruiting campaign for the TA. This has already resulted in over 6,650 inquiries since it started on 17 January. The Government are fully committed to delivering Reserve Forces that are integral to and integrated with the Regular Forces, and we are investing an additional £1.8 billion over the next 10 years.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware, in his reference to the historic situation with Reserve Forces, that I stood at that Dispatch Box and announced the increase in the Territorial Army, not to 31,000 but to 83,000, and that I announced the formation of 607 City of York Squadron, Royal Auxiliary Air Force, to be deployed in support of 2nd Infantry Division, then commanded by Major-General Peter Inge, now of course the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Inge? Is he also aware that I stood at that Dispatch Box and announced the purchase of 11 River class minesweepers, exclusively for the Royal Naval Reserve, assisted on that occasion by the then Commander Alan West, now of course Admiral Lord West, the noble Lord, Lord West?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I remember well when my noble friend was a very distinguished Minister standing at this Dispatch Box, and I believe I lobbed the odd question at him. My noble friend mentioned the figure of 83,000. That is why we are very optimistic that we can get up to a figure of 30,000 by 2018.

[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, was announcing the things he has just referred to, I was a mere Lieutenant Colonel working as a military assistant to the Minister of State for the Armed Forces. Therefore, we are all aware of the aspirations for our Reserve Forces and the way it has worked out. We are all committed to making this policy work in the interests of the security of the realm, the safety of our citizens, and the well-being of the Armed Forces. However, as this Government think about the next defence review, are they also thinking of an alternative if we are not able to recruit Reserve Forces of the size that we currently need? Might we think about increasing the size of our regular Army in particular?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are thinking optimistically. I quote General Monro, who is head of the Territorial Army, and who is very focused on its success. He said:

“There is a mission, and we have to achieve the mission. I am confident that we will get there.”

We intend to maintain appropriate force level to meet our planning assumptions. If necessary, mitigation strategies are in place to ensure that we can take early action to maintain an appropriate force level.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, is it not the truth that the Government are currently below their projected targets? Is not the Government’s failure to estimate the number of SMEs, because employers and employees within SMEs are more reluctant to join and co-operate with the Government’s targets, part of the problem? Will the projected and likely decrease in recruitment centres have an adverse effect on recruitment?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have always recognised that reversing the long-term decline in the Reserve Forces and increasing their strength would be challenging, which is why an additional £1.8 billion is being invested in them and why we have recently conducted a public consultation to ensure that the right relationships are established in future between the reserves and their families, their employers and the Armed Forces. As I said earlier, the number of inquiries has increased and early indications are that the strength of the reserves is stabilising.

The noble Lord mentioned SMEs. We aim to tailor our approach, adjusting our working practice to reflect the different opportunities and impacts of reserve service for different employers—public and private, large, medium and small—as well as by sector.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how, in the rush to increase our Reserve Forces, we will ensure that the relevant skills are available from the new reserves so recruited?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, all three Armed Forces are recruiting reservists against defined military trade requirements. Some reservists seek to use their civilian skills in their military role, and we encourage them to do this, but many do not, and training will be provided in the required military trades. In future, we seek to achieve greater accreditation of training and increased mutual recognition of civilian and military qualifications between the Armed Forces and civilian employers.

Somalia: Piracy (EUC Report)

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I begin by acknowledging the quality of the contributions to this debate. Noble Lords have demonstrated a keen and impressive grasp of this very complicated issue. I praise in particular the excellent work of my noble friend Lord Teverson and the other committee members in compiling the report on Operation Atalanta.

Operation Atalanta has successfully contained, constrained and deterred acts of piracy. None the less, the UK’s longer-term aim is to eradicate the underlying causes of the instability that affects Somalia and gives rise to acts of piracy, and several noble Lords have made that point today. This can be achieved only by addressing the root causes of the problems in Somalia. EUTM Somalia and EUCAP NESTOR, launched as part of the EU’s contribution to an overall strategy for the Horn of Africa, aim to provide a comprehensive solution to Somalia’s problems. In time these missions, alongside AMISOM, will create a secure and stable Somalia, remove the incentives for piracy and develop the capacity of coastal states in the region to police their own coastlines.

The UK remains fully supportive of Operation Atalanta’s mandate and is committed to the continued command of Operation Atalanta from Northwood for the current mandate, which expires in December 2014. International pressure on the pirates must be maintained in order to prevent a significant resurgence of activity. While any formal decision to extend Operation Atalanta’s mandate beyond 2014 is unlikely to be taken in the immediate future, the EU has demonstrated a firm commitment to its counter-piracy efforts, including through enhancing the mandate with agreement on the use of autonomous vessel protection detachments and the disruption of pirate logistics dumps. Additionally, the launch of EUCAP NESTOR and a growing EU diplomatic role send further strong signals of increasing EU engagement.

The degree of maritime co-operation between the three core international counter-piracy forces—the EU’s Operation Atalanta, the US-led Combined Maritime Forces Combined Task Force 151 and NATO’s Operation Ocean Shield—is among the best that we have ever seen. The three operations provide a variety of effective framework opportunities for third-state contributions to anti-piracy efforts to further enhance international co-operation, evidenced recently when Royal Thai naval forces commanded a Combined Maritime Forces task force from a UK vessel. The shared awareness and deconfliction mechanism has also helped to ensure that military efforts in the region are effectively co-ordinated between international partners.

The threat from piracy remains a serious problem, but results and trends suggest that Operation Atalanta, in conjunction with other measures to counter piracy, is proving effective. For example, as of 7 March this year, two vessels and 60 hostages were being held off the Somali coast, the lowest levels held by pirates since September 2009. I hate to correct my noble friend but two vessels and 48 hostages were released over the weekend, so the figures that I have quoted are the accurate ones. This compares favourably with May 2011, when 23 ships and 503 hostages were held. Attacks and pirating of vessels are down by over 75% during the past 12 months. However, I emphasise that these gains remain reversible and it is vital that we do not relieve any of the considerable pressure that is currently being brought to bear on the Somali pirates.

The ability to prosecute and detain convicted pirates is an important element of our strategy to combat piracy and is an effective deterrent. Over 1,200 suspects or convicted pirates are being held in 21 states across the world. The Seychelles currently holds 101, representing some 20% of its prison population, while Kenya holds 147. We continue to support regional partners in developing local prosecutorial capacity.

Capacity-building assistance is being provided to the Seychellois justice sector by the international community. For example, the UK has provided funding to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime for the work of its counter-piracy programme, which has included work with Montagne Posée prison in the Seychelles. A new 60-cell block was opened there in September 2011 to help with the detention of suspected and convicted pirates. The UK has provided assistance to the Attorney-General’s Office by seconding two prosecutors from the Crown Prosecution Service to assist with the prosecution of suspected pirates.

A longer-term solution to develop Somali capability and ownership of the piracy problem is being implemented by the UNODC’s post-trial transfer programme, which returns pirates convicted in regional jurisdictions to Somalia to serve out the balance of their sentences. The programme has so far transferred 59 convicted pirates from the Seychelles to Somaliland under the terms of a bilateral memorandum of understanding, the agreement of which was facilitated by the United Kingdom at the London conference on Somalia. Further transfers from the Seychelles are anticipated this year.

I turn to the specific questions asked by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, asked what political progress had been made in Somalia. Real political progress has been made there in recent months. The transitional period concluded on 10 September with the election of a new president, Hassan Sheikh Mohamud. This was a significant moment in Somalia and an important step towards a renewed political process. The London Conference on Somalia in February 2012 brought the international community together to support this process and, for the first time in years, it was run in consultation with the Somali people through their elders. They led a process to draw up a new constitution and formed a new parliament which elected a new president.

It is clear that, after two decades of conflict and instability, the people of Somalia want to usher in a new era of peace, security and democracy. Recent political progress marks a new chapter in their history. The end of the transition is the best opportunity in years to make progress towards peace and stability. Already, people are rebuilding their properties and businesses; confidence is increasing; and the diaspora is returning.

My noble friend Lord Jopling and the noble Lord, Lord Radice, mentioned the 959 pirates who were released. They asked what was the basis of the amnesty and why did this not apply to the “godfathers”. This amnesty referred to the boys who had committed acts of piracy at sea but did not apply to the financial backers or the senior leaders of the pirate action groups. My noble friend Lord Jopling asked for the Government’s response to the committee’s recommendation for an increased contribution from the Gulf states. We are working closely with a number of the Gulf states, particularly the UAE, Bahrain and Oman, and organisations such as the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. The UAE has commanded the Combined Maritime Forces Combined Task Force 151 and Bahrain, Oman, Kuwait and the UAE all provide bases for Royal Navy ships. They all share information with coalition forces.

My noble friend Lord Jopling also asked whether, as the number of attacks reduces, there is a temptation to relax our presence there. Military response must remain proportional to the threat until the root causes of piracy have been addressed ashore. This is now occurring via EUCAP NESTOR and other capacity-building initiatives. Meanwhile, Operation Atalanta, NATO and the CTF 151 continue their deterrent patrols which deliver the time and space to allow development activity to take place ashore.

My noble friend asked whether pirates would be returned to Somalia. The committee did not consider this to be sensible given the level of prison security. He asked would the UN prison remain unused. The UN has refurbished a prison in Somaliland which is currently housing convicted pirates returned from the Seychelles. Work is on the way to building additional penal facilities. This is crucial to Somalia’s ongoing development. Building justice and the rule of law is a priority for the new Somali president.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, pointed out that the example of success on Operation Atalanta should be included as part of the balance of competences review. Operation Atalanta will be part of a case study on common security and defence policy activities in the Horn of Africa. The noble Lord said that the committee’s conclusion in respect of ransom payments was wholly inadequate because these are criminal payments. Companies assembling ransoms in the UK must seek consent from the Serious Organised Crime Agency prior to payment. The Government do not make or facilitate substantive concessions to hostage-takers, including the payment of ransom. I would point out that it is not against UK law to pay piracy ransoms.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

On that point, do the Government believe that it is a satisfactory situation that these payments are not illegal?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

We agree with the noble Lord that it is not a satisfactory situation.

The noble Lord, Lord Jay, asked whether the United Kingdom continued to strengthen the African Union in Somalia. Support through the EU training mission will continue. The UK continues to support AMISOM in Mogadishu, which is the military arm of the AU in Somalia and was critical to the recent successful retaking of Kismayo that forced al-Shabaab out of one of its key strongholds and away from a key source of revenue. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, as a former ambassador to Paris, for his encouraging words on our support to the French over Mali.

The noble Lord also mentioned west African piracy. The situation there is much more maritime criminality than piracy—the theft of cargo, illegal bunkering et cetera—and should not be seen as similar to that in Somalia. As such, it is clearly the role of national police forces to deal with it. The Royal Navy is taking action where it can, predominantly in terms of training and capacity-building: HMS “Dauntless”, HMS “Edinburgh” and HMS “Argyll” have all recently worked in this area. The noble Lord asked what effect the destabilisation of Mali might have on wider UK interests. It would allow ungoverned space from which terrorists could operate, plan and launch attacks with impunity, and could also destabilise other parts of Africa such as Nigeria and Sierra Leone.

The noble Lord, Lord Radice, asked what the United Kingdom and the EU are doing to meet the threat in west Africa, whether the Royal Navy will deploy assets to west Africa and whether we will apply the lessons from Somalia to west Africa. Lessons are being learnt from Somalia and applied to west Africa. The UK is supporting the industry initiative to create a regional maritime trade information-sharing centre. The Royal Navy deployment has helped build capacity aboard vessels and it is helping to train maritime law enforcement officers and develop maritime legal frameworks to prosecute maritime crime. Corruption locally is the biggest threat.

The noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked how EUCAP NESTOR is progressing. The answer is: as well as can be expected. Building capacity where none has existed for 20 years is a great challenge. It involves preparing assessments of what is required, identifying key leaders who will have to drive forward development on behalf of the Somali Government and people, working in conjunction with various institution-building initiatives and prioritising where EU funds need to be spent.

The noble Baroness asked what the Government’s view is on dumping toxic waste off the coast of Somalia. Historical reports of toxic dumping in the early days of piracy cannot be denied, but it has reduced significantly owing to the naval presence in the area. Recent reports to the UN Security Council have failed to provide evidence of toxic dumping off the Somali coast. This Government remain committed to working with international partners to tackle all the reasons used to justify committing acts of piracy.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked me to congratulate Kenya and the Seychelles on their efforts and asked what the Government’s attitude was towards Operation Atalanta. Regional partners are an essential part of the UK’s counter-piracy strategy. The Seychelles are leading the effort, having recognised the threats from piracy to tourism and their fishing and maritime industries. We commend their continuing efforts and those of Kenya.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether there was a change in the department responsible, as I am responding to this debate, and whether it reflects a change in the Government’s approach to piracy. There is no change in the department. The Ministry of Defence led the written response to this committee, and it is therefore fitting that I attend this debate now. This Government remain committed to countering the threat of piracy in the Indian Ocean and to working with our international partners.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked whether the Puntland maritime police force would be allowed to resume its activities. The Puntland maritime police force is a local militia trained by a private security company and it received weapons in breach of the UN sanctions regime in force for Somalia. The decision to employ or allow the activities of the PMPF rests with the new Government of Somalia.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether the Government’s allocation of ships to Atalanta remains as per the report. The answer is yes. We allocate ships on a case-by-case basis, and it may not be the most effective use of ships to allocate them to Atalanta rather than to other coalitions. This is kept under constant review and plans made accordingly. A Royal Navy helicopter is currently assigned to Atalanta, working from a front ship. The noble Lord asked whether, given the current situation, the Government would support extension of Atalanta’s mandate. The EU is beginning a strategic review of Operation Atalanta, and we remain committed to supporting this mission.

The piracy threat cannot be dealt with through military means alone. It will require a sustained international effort that addresses not only the threat from pirates but institutional incapacity. The UK is ultimately seeking greater coherence between EUTM, Atalanta and Op NESTOR within the overall EU Horn of Africa strategy but also with other international and UK unilateral activity. All the symptoms—terrorism, piracy and migration—are a result of the causes of instability in Somalia. EUTM does not currently link directly to the other CSDP missions but rather to the wider EU strategy as part of the comprehensive approach to Somalia. Linking missions with diplomatic and developmental tools should enable the EU to take a lead internationally in seeking to bring stability and governance to the country and wider region.

Armed Forces: Army Basing Plan

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the future basing of the British Army. To assist honourable and right honourable Members in understanding the detail of the changes I shall announce and the effects on their constituencies, I have placed in the Libraries of both Houses and on the MoD website documents setting them out. Copies are, with your permission Mr Speaker, being distributed in the Chamber.

In 2010, we set out in the strategic defence and security review the configuration of forces that the UK would require to meet future threats and we committed to have completed the return of UK troops from Germany by 2020. Last summer, I announced to the House the structure of the Regular Army component of Future Force 2020. Today, I can announce the future pattern of basing of the Regular Army in the UK so that our service men and women, their families and the communities that host Army units have clarity about where they will be based in the future and when moves are likely to occur.

As the House will recall, in July 2011 the then Defence Secretary set out our initial plans for the future of the MoD estate on which we will accommodate, train and prepare our Armed Forces. Those plans have been significantly refined over the intervening 18 months and reflect the fully developed military advice on the optimum affordable basing lay down to accommodate the Army in its future structure.

This announcement honours our commitment to bring all our troops home from Germany by 2020, with all but 4,400 of 20 Brigade home by Christmas 2016. It supports the Army 2020 structure, the integrated reserves training model and the generation of the Army’s future military capability. It delivers a £1.8 billion investment in the UK economy in infrastructure and accommodation and annual savings of £240 million in reduced costs and improved efficiency of training and maintenance operations, on top of the £100 million-plus annual saving generated by the previously announced moves from Germany.

The return of the British Army from Germany marks the end of an era and I want to put on record the huge debt of gratitude we owe to the German Government and the German people for the support, both moral and material, they have shown our Armed Forces over more than six decades. In fact, that return has already begun. In 2010, there were 20,000 British service personnel based in Germany together with their dependants and civilian staff. Already, that figure has been reduced to less than 16,000, with significant force elements having already relocated, such as the Headquarters Allied Rapid Reaction Corps, which has moved to Innsworth, Gloucestershire.

Planning for completion of the return is well advanced. We are on track to reduce our presence in Germany by more than 70% by 2015, against our SDSR target of 50%. The long-term retention of a small training presence in Germany, utilising NATO training facilities, is under consideration, but we will be closing all major unit locations. But this is not just about rebasing the Army from Germany. It is about providing a basing plan for Army 2020 in the UK, which will allow the Army to generate its military capability in the optimal way.

As the plan has developed, two key principles have emerged to inform it. First, the armoured infantry brigades of the reaction force should coalesce around a single location. We have concluded that Salisbury Plain Training Area is the only place in the country where we have the capability to carry out the complex and demanding training exercises they need to conduct. Having all three brigades located in close proximity around the plain will enable them to train and fight more effectively, and will present significant opportunities for efficiency in equipment support and people management. Secondly, the Army should retain a UK-wide footprint, maintaining the vital link to civil society, fostering closer links between reserve units and their partnered regular units and supporting nationwide recruitment and engagement.

Guided by these two principles, the Army has identified the laydown that represents the best value for money, both in terms of utilisation of existing estate and in terms of minimisation of running costs. The focus will be on increasing consolidation around seven centres at: Salisbury Plain Training Area, where we will invest over £800 million; north-east England, centred on Catterick; Aldershot; Edinburgh and Leuchars; Colchester and Swanton Morley; Stafford and Donnington; and, in the east Midlands, focused on Cottesmore and North Luffenham, where £180 million will be invested—all while maintaining a regional presence in other parts of the country. Consolidating around these seven centres will significantly reduce the need for moves, giving Army personnel and their families greater certainty about where they will live and work, with real benefits in terms of increased stability, access to long-term spousal employment opportunities, continuity in schooling and the chance to set down roots and access the benefits of home ownership.

This announcement will maintain the broad pattern of Army activity in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. With 45 Commando Royal Marines remaining in Arbroath for the foreseeable future, the measures announced today will see an increase of about 600-plus in total regular Armed Forces numbers north of the border as against the July 2011 baseline, even as the Armed Forces reduce in size by about 17% overall. In both Wales and Northern Ireland, overall numbers will reduce by approximately 400.

This announcement sets out our firm plans for the laydown of the British Army, subject of course to gaining the necessary planning, environmental and other regulatory approvals. They are underpinned by a capital investment from the defence budget of £1.8 billion, including £1 billion of investment in new living accommodation to provide 7,800 single living spaces and 1,900 new and refurbished units of family accommodation. This investment will provide a welcome stimulus to the UK construction industry and, taken together with significant purchasing power currently going into the German economy that will be diverted to the UK, will help create jobs across the regions and nations of the UK.

The MoD plays a major role in the Government’s public land release programme and will be looking to release additional land and surplus service family accommodation where it is no longer needed. Under this plan, the Armed Forces will leave a number of locations. The disposal plans will be subject to further detailed work and will be subject to the completion of the plans for the reserve estate in due course. However, I can confirm that we plan to dispose of Howe Barracks in Canterbury, Claro Barracks in Ripon and parts of Copthorne Barracks in Shrewsbury. In Scotland, we will be disposing of Craigiehall Barracks, as well as elements of Redford Barracks and Forthside Barracks, Stirling. Kirknewton will not now be developed as an Army base but Dreghorn will remain as one.

The MoD intends to close Cawdor Barracks at Brawdy in Wales, which is no longer fit for purpose, with 14 Signal Regiment relocating to St Athan, not before 2018, as part of a regional consolidation of the defence presence on that site that will also allow commercial development and job creation by the Welsh Assembly Government, with whom we are working collaboratively in support of the enterprise zone. The local communities in each of these areas have been hugely supportive of the military presence over many years. The loss of historic ties will be much regretted and, on behalf of the Army, I want to thank those communities for their generous hosting.

As part of our continued scrutiny of the central London estate, we will be pursuing options to vacate Hyde Park Barracks and reprovide for the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment elsewhere within central London, allowing for disposal of this prime development site, provided that the regiment’s requirements can be met and that it proves value for money to do so. These disposals, and other planned disposals, will bring substantial receipts which have already been factored into the MoD’s future budgets and will significantly reduce the operating costs of the MoD estate.

I have focused today on the future basing of the Regular Army, but I am conscious that many honourable and right honourable Members will also be interested in the reserves and in our plans for reserve basing, as well as the future basing plans for the other services, the training estate and logistics operations. My right honourable friend the Minister for the Armed Forces will be making announcements shortly concerning other routine changes elsewhere in the MoD estate across the UK, and I will update the House before the Summer Recess on the future basing plans for the reserves.

This announcement represents a costed and funded plan to bring our Army back from Germany, deliver the basing laydown for Army 2020 and provide the accommodation our troops deserve, fulfilling our commitments to consolidate the Army estate and providing certainty to Army personnel and their families about where they will be based in the future. It is a plan that is driven by the Army’s requirement to generate military capability in the most effective and efficient way as it reconfigures for contingent operations based almost entirely in the UK. It represents a significant step towards the achievement of Future Force 2020, delivers substantial savings to defence in the future and a significant boost to the UK economy, and to the construction industry in particular, right now.

I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s welcome for a steady, costed withdrawal from Germany. I wrote as fast as I could, but I am afraid that I could not keep up with all of the noble Lord’s questions. I will do my best to answer as many as I can, but I undertake to write to him as soon as possible.

The noble Lord referred to previous Statements, particularly the July 2011 Statement. As the Defence Secretary said, today’s announcement presents an updated plan for the British Army which is built on where necessary, just as the plan announced in 2011. The further work we have carried out in the interim has refined the Army’s requirements and further identified value-for-money in our planning. It has sought out incremental savings and operational synergies in the way the Army operates.

The noble Lord particularly mentioned Scotland and the previous Secretary of State’s announcement in July 2011. The plans set out two years ago were on the basis of the Army operating a multirole brigade structure, but under Army 2020, published last year, the Army announced a significant change in its structure based on two key elements: reaction force brigades, centred on Salisbury Plain, and adaptable force brigades, based on regional headquarters. We will have an adaptable force brigade in Scotland, but it would not make sense to split the reactive force brigades between Salisbury Plain and Scotland, especially as we would need to purchase an additional training area in Scotland. Nevertheless, today’s announcement strengthens the Army’s presence in Scotland and implies an increase in the number of Armed Forces personnel based there of roughly 600 above the levels at the time of Dr Fox’s July 2011 announcement. This is a visible sign of our commitment to Scotland and to Scotland’s continual vital contribution and role in the United Kingdom’s defence.

The noble Lord asked me about the £1.8 billion expenditure and where it comes from. I can confirm that it comes from the capital budget and will not be at the expense of any redundancies. The point to remember is that it will deliver substantial savings from 2015 onwards.

The noble Lord asked me about RAF bases. We will be spending a lot of money both at former RAF Cottesmore and at RAF Leuchars. I do not have all the information at hand, and anyway, we are subject to contractual agreements, so I would not be able to give the noble Lord the figures. I will write to him in the best possible way that I can.

The noble Lord referred to the Armed Forces covenant and the pay body report. The Army has always looked to minimise effects on families of unit moves by ensuring that, where possible, any necessary moves are timed to allow personnel the ability to manage issues such as schooling and healthcare as easily as possible. While moving a great many Army families initially, this basing plan will give our personnel and their families greater long-term stability where they are based. This will allow them to integrate into the local community, their spouses to find long-term jobs and their children to have continuity in their education. Following the complete delivery of the plan, it is envisaged that the majority of units will not need to move again in the near future. The noble Lord asked me whether we are encouraging members of the Army and the Armed Forces to buy their properties. We are certainly doing that.

I can give the noble Lord confirmation that to the best of my knowledge no members of the Army will have to go into private rented accommodation. We are taking a great deal of trouble in working this out. Those members of the Army coming back from Germany will have suitable, adequate accommodation to move into with their families. We will consult the relevant government departments, local authorities and devolved Administrations about education and health. While the department recognises that the increase in personnel in some areas will increase demand on local services, many of the changes—for instance, Salisbury Plain—will not take place until the second half of the decade, which will allow time for resources to be appropriately redirected. Obviously, the education and health costs will fall on these local authorities but it is my understanding that they very much welcome these units moving into their areas.

The noble Lord mentioned Germany. We are very sad to be leaving Germany. I add to what the Secretary of State said in thanking the authorities there very much for all that they have done over the past six decades. I can confirm that the Secretary of State spoke yesterday to his German counterpart who, while being very sad, quite understands the reasons for us moving.

I think that that addresses most of the noble Lord’s questions. I know that there are a lot of unanswered ones and I undertake to write to him.

[Viscount Slim]

The Minister made mention of training areas. To train an army properly with its ground-air support, great dedication must be given to the hours of darkness and night training. This always causes consternation among local government, various bodies and nearby inhabitants. What are the Government doing to ensure that night training is not sanctioned in any way in its most modern form today so that our military can consider and take part in proper night training within the United Kingdom? If we do not allow constant night training of our Regular Forces and Reserve Forces of all three services, we will not have much of an Army.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is my understanding that a good deal of night training takes place in different training areas, such as Salisbury Plain, Otterburn in Northumberland and in Wales. We hope to keep the NATO training area in Germany after we move the rest of the Army out. Troops go to Alberta, Canada, for night training and to other countries, of which the noble Viscount is aware, including jungle training in Brunei.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, last year in your Lordships’ House, as regards housing for the Army, I said:

“The bad news is that there will be a three-year pause in the improvements programme from April 2013”.—[Official Report, 23/4/12; col. GC 278.]

That related to the report of the Armed Forces pay review body. We owe it to our soldiers to provide good and decent accommodation. Will the Minister confirm that we are doing that and how it fits into the earlier statement about having a pause in improvements in April 2013? Can he also say whether the £1 billion funding for housing in the Statement will not lead to calls for further cuts in welfare benefits?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend that we owe members of our Armed Forces decent accommodation, and we are going to considerable lengths to ensure that that happens. As I said in the Statement, we are spending £1 billion to provide some 1,900 new service family accommodation units and some 7,800 single living accommodation bed spaces. The intention is that the living conditions of those returning will be comparable to those of UK troops based in Britain and that the return of units from Germany to the UK will provide greater stability for the soldiers and the families involved.

I am afraid that I have forgotten the second part of my noble friend’s question, but this money is pretty much ring-fenced for accommodation. It will not be at the expense of other areas.

[Lord Moonie]

My Lords, the Minister will be well aware that any development such as this is a compromise between the need to save money and the need to maintain the footprint of the Armed Forces throughout the United Kingdom. What account has been taken of the difficulties that we appear to be experiencing in recruiting, particularly to the Reserve Forces, when Scotland, for example, is one of the major areas that we would hope to be recruiting from? This could be seen as a disappointment in that the footprint in Scotland will not be expanded as greatly as was originally thought.

I hope the Minister will forgive me a parochial point. Have the Government taken into account the availability of the Barry Buddon training area just across the estuary from Leuchars in deciding which units would be based there?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot answer the noble Lord’s last question. I am sure that it was looked into but I will check. We are aware of the recruiting issue, particularly for the reserves. As the noble Lord knows, we have done a lot of work on the reserves and trying to build up recruiting. There will be a White Paper on recruiting for the reserves and I hope to make a Statement on that issue before the Summer Recess.

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, the Minister will recognise that those of us who come from Yorkshire will have mixed feelings about the Statement and since both Catterick and Ripon are in my patch, I share those feelings. On the one hand, so far as my experience at Catterick is concerned, I very much welcome the emphasis in the Statement on spousal opportunities for work, home ownership and continuity of schooling. Will the Minister reaffirm that individual soldiers and their families will be spending longer periods of time at a single base? That is what is necessary. It is not simply that they will return from Germany, but that they will spend a significant amount of time at one base in this country, which has often not been the case in the past.

On the other hand, the damage to Ripon of the closure of Claro barracks will be substantial in terms of the economic effect, friendships and the pride of the city. I have no doubt that that will be the same for other places where barracks are being closed. What support will be available to local communities, especially in comparatively small places such as Ripon, in order that those effects may be mitigated for the whole community in which those barracks are set?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm to the right reverend Prelate that our objective is to have units based in similar locations for a much longer period of time so that wives can be encouraged to get jobs and children will have continuity of education. We have set out in this basic plan, which I hope noble Lords have with copies of the Statement, all the different places where the units coming back from Germany are going to. I accept that there is a lot to digest in this and I am organising a briefing in the Ministry of Defence on 19 March. All the members of the Armed Forces and the civil servants who have been working on the plan will be there to explain everything to noble Lords. Indeed, noble Lords who do not normally come into the MoD are welcome to come along, and I would very much welcome the right reverend Prelate. We will be able to discuss the support that we are planning to give to all the local communities, in particular the smaller ones.

[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement that the Minister has just repeated about the future basing of the Army and the answer he gave earlier that the money involved, the capital investment, will be ring-fenced. I assume that the Minister meant that the £1.8 billion should be ring-fenced, which I very much welcome. Army basing is one of the areas of doubt that now may well have been clarified. Of course, doubt is what reduces morale in the Armed Forces, but redundancy is another issue hanging over many members of the Army at present. While I accept that the basing policy now brings more clarity to where the Army is going to live, can the Minister tell us when the new employment model will be made known to members of the Army so that they know how they are going to live?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I was referring to the £1 billion which my noble friend asked me about; that is being spent on accommodation. The noble Lord mentioned morale and I quite agree about how important accommodation is to the morale of the members of our Armed Forces. I spend quite a lot of time looking at the accommodation for the three services and I do all I can to ensure that it is being upgraded. Likewise, the noble Lord mentioned basing. We are doing everything possible to pass messages on to members of the Armed Forces and their families so that they know exactly where they stand. The feedback I have been given suggests that it has been very well received by the Army.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Can my noble friend give an estimate of how long the transitional arrangements will take in respect of RAF Leuchars? Also, can he give an assurance that the runway will be kept operational in the mean time?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm for my noble friend that the runway at Leuchars will be kept in operation. I think that a university air squadron is based there and will continue to use it. Once the Typhoons have moved up to RAF Lossiemouth, we would want it as a failsafe runway for Lossiemouth.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, it is the wrong decision to bring back the Army from Germany at present, and to do so at very considerable cost. The Minister mentioned the figure of £1.8 billion. That would have been enough to have kept Nimrod going, to have maintained a Harrier strike force and to have bought all 22 Chinooks. The Government have demonstrated a very perverse order of priorities in this decision. It also deprives the Army of the training opportunities available in Germany which are much more extensive than Salisbury Plain, as the Minister knows very well, and of course of the opportunity for close collaboration in Germany with the Bundeswehr and the American army units stationed there, so it was the wrong decision. However, perhaps I may ask the Minister for a figure that he has not given. What is the estimate of the incremental costs in the future of flying our troops for training in Germany, Canada or in other places where they need more extensive training grounds—a need that would not have arisen had we maintained our position in Germany?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord always finds something wrong with the announcements I make, but he forgets the very difficult financial situation that we inherited. I would point out that although we are spending a certain amount of money on bringing our troops back from Germany, huge savings of at least £240 million a year will be made from there on. I would much rather see the money spent in this country than in Germany.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, the Statement confirms that 45 Commando Royal Marines will remain at RM Condor in Arbroath. The marines of 45 Commando are this country’s specialists in mountain and arctic warfare. Arbroath has swift access to training areas in the Cairngorm mountains and is close to NATO’s northern flank. Since the war, 45 Commando has deployed with great distinction these important specialist skills on operations in the Troodos mountains in Cyprus, the Radfan mountains in Aden, and more recently in Afghanistan. Does my noble friend agree that this decision will be good for the Royal Marines and their families, for our defence capabilities—including recruitment —and also for Scotland?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with everything that my noble friend says about the Royal Marines. The Secretary of State was telling me last night how impressed he was when he visited them on winter training in Norway earlier this week. I agree with my noble friend that remaining in Arbroath will be good for the Royal Marines and for their families. As I said earlier, 45 Commando Royal Marines will remain in Arbroath for the foreseeable future. We investigated the feasibility of the move to the south-west but that option did not, at this stage, represent value for money and Arbroath is not needed for Army basing in Scotland. It is my understanding, as my noble friend said, that 45 Commando is very happy with this decision.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, I noticed that the Statement includes a proposal to sell off Hyde Park barracks, presumably because it is so incredibly valuable. Does my noble friend have any idea where the Household Cavalry would go if that was done?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is a difficult question for me to answer. Of course, if the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment was ordered to leave, it would have to go. However, as the Statement made clear, a lot of research needs to be done before it can move out. Suitable barracks would need to be found within the centre of London for it to move to, with all the costing worked out. It would be very complicated, but we would be irresponsible not to look into it.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

I thank the Minister for the Statement, particularly for covering the continual running sore—as the Armed Forces Pay Review Body report this year confirms yet again—of accommodation. Is he confident that the new and refurbished housing will be ready for our troops and their families when they come home, knowing that this will have to go through the public procurement process—I presume—and knowing about the delay after delay that such processes in the MoD seem to attract? What processes have been set up to consult with the services families organisations? Accommodation is a problem but there is also the linked problem of an influx of young families requiring more school places, to go on lists for local doctors and dentists, and hospital accommodation, which was not mentioned in the Statement. What processes are in place to deal with that and to ensure that when these families come back, those facilities are there for them? Finally, how does this impact on the covenant, which we have all welcomed and which is important in the life of servicepeople?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are of course well aware of the covenant and do everything we possibly can to stick by it. When I was in opposition, I went with the noble Baroness to visit quite a lot of accommodation. In the last two years we have done a lot of work on accommodation, as did the previous Government at the end, and it is hugely different now to three years ago. The level of Army accommodation is catching up with the Navy’s and the Air Force’s and, on the whole, is really good. I am very much looking forward to going down to Salisbury Plain, I hope next month, to see what has been done there recently and what the plans are. We are in discussion with Wiltshire Council about the very issues that the noble Baroness raises—hospitals, schools and all the others. These are issues that we have to deal with, but all the local authorities and the devolved Governments that we have been in touch with very much welcome the Army moving into their area.

[The Earl of Erroll]

Perhaps I might ask the Minister, in a slightly light-hearted way: if Scotland becomes independent will those troops stationed north of the border become part of the “Scottish Army”? If it does not, what does that do to his pronouncements about long-term stability and how they will not all get moved around?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Earl asks a very good question. The creation of independent Scottish armed forces would not be as simple as transferring existing Scottish-recruited or Scotland-based units. The UK Armed Forces are a totally integrated, pan-UK organisation and parts cannot simply be broken off like bits of a chocolate bar. Individual members of the UK Armed Forces could not simply be co-opted. They would have to be given a choice and it is far from clear that Scots in the UK Armed Forces, or members of units recruited or based in Scotland, would automatically choose to join the armed forces of an independent Scotland. The prospect of being part of smaller, less globally active armed forces might be seen as less rewarding for some.

[Lord Dannatt]

With the indulgence of the House and an eye on the clock, perhaps I may ask the Minister a second question, given that my earlier question about the new employment model still hangs. I raised the issue of morale a moment or two ago. The capability of the Army is obviously very critical and its future capability is based on the integration of the Reserve Forces with the Regular Forces, about which this basing report is concerned today. When will we know the Reserve Forces basing plan? Clearly, successful delivery of our Reserve Forces is absolutely critical to the future capability of the Army, given that the Regular Army is being cut by 20%, which is unprecedented in recent times.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord that there is a lot of work going on at the moment on the Reserve Forces basing plan and how that ties in with the Regular Army. As I said earlier, there will be a White Paper quite soon and I hope very much to give a Statement on this very important subject before the Summer Recess.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, first, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Kingsman David Robert Shaw of 1st Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, who died in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham on Wednesday 16 January 2013 from wounds received in Afghanistan on Monday 14 January, and Sapper Richard Reginald Walker of 28 Engineer Regiment, attached to 21 Engineer Regiment, who was killed in Afghanistan on Monday 7 January. My thoughts are also with the wounded and I pay tribute to the courage and fortitude with which they face their rehabilitation.

In reply to the Unstarred Question asked in the other place today, my honourable friend Mark Francois said:

“As the House will be aware, the Government announced the process and outline timetable for the Armed Forces redundancy programme on 1 March last year, the need for the programme being born out of the Strategic Security and Defence Review and subsequent activity to balance defence books. While in an ideal world we would not need to run a redundancy programme, defence, like all areas of government, must live within its means.

Today’s announcement represents the start of the third tranche of that programme and affects only Army personnel. Announcements about who has been selected will be made on 18 June this year. Applicants will then be given six months’ notice and non-applicants 12 months’ notice before they leave the service. While we need to make up to 5,300 Army personnel redundant, the programme will not adversely affect operations in Afghanistan. As with previous tranches, there are a number of important exclusions from the programme. Critically, those preparing for, deployed on or recovering from operations on 18 June will be exempt from the tranche. Similarly, those personnel who are below the necessary medical standard for continued service will be ineligible for redundancy and, if necessary, will be discharged through the standard medical process.

The House will wish to note that because of the drawdown in Afghanistan that we have already announced, a final decision on those who will be deploying there in autumn this year will not be made until April. As a result, the final decision on personnel who are excluded as a result of preparing for operations will not be made until then.

We expect, at this stage, there to be a further tranche of redundancy in 2014. This would likely affect Army personnel and a small number of medical and dental officers from the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.

Throughout the process, the Army will seek to maximise the number of applicants. At the same time, we have cut back on recruiting as far as it is safe to do so but, as the House will recognise, the services are recruited from the bottom up, and therefore a steady inflow of Army recruits will continue to be required.

It is worth highlighting at this stage that the majority of those leaving the services as a result of tranches one and two have enjoyed significant success in moving to civilian jobs. All those who have been made redundant, whether applicants or non-applicants, will enjoy the benefits of the career transition programme. This includes career transition workshops; up to 35 days of paid resettlement training; and financial support, education and training up to 10 years after leaving. This programme has proved very successful in assisting service leavers to find work outside the Armed Forces. Historically, 93% of those who look for work are in full-time employment within six months of leaving, rising to 97% after 12 months. To that end, 91% of tranche one applicants—that is over 1,500 people—have already found employment, this being testament to, and a reflection of, the training and quality that we as a nation continue to find in our service personnel”.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I express our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the two brave members of our Armed Forces who have lost their lives as a result of action in Afghanistan in the service of our country.

I thank the Minister for repeating as a Statement the Answer given in response to the Urgent Question asked in the other place on Armed Forces redundancies. With these further redundancies, how will the Government ensure that the specialist skills that will be required more than ever in future in, for example, North Africa, in intelligence capability and foreign languages, as well as in our Special Forces, are retained, not lost in the continuing reduction in the size of our Armed Forces?

Secondly, the reduction in the size of our Regular Army also assumes an increase in the size of our Reserve Forces. That will require incentives for employers to employ and retain reservists and cast-iron guarantees for reservists that they will not be discriminated against in their employment. What assurances can the Minister give on these two points, without which achieving the required strength of our Reserve Forces is likely to prove very difficult?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments at the beginning of his speech. He asked how we ensure that we retain the skills that we need. There are certain pinch-point skills that will be excluded from the redundancies. Off the top of my head, they are the intelligence corps, a certain number of Royal Engineers, particularly IEDs, language skills, which the noble Lord mentioned, and, of course, the Special Forces, which we do not talk about. They will be excluded.

Turning to reservists, as the noble Lord knows—we had a debate on this subject the other day—we expect to have a White Paper on this issue in the spring. We spent a lot of time debating this issue. This is a subject in which I personally take a great deal of interest. I have been involved with the reserves for a number of years, and I am confident that we can do everything possible to get up to the number we want, which is 20,000 by 2018.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, from these Benches, I join the commiserations expressed by my noble friend. In the short time available, perhaps I may say that the Government are rightly proud of getting the inherited defence budget in balance, but unfortunately events take place and nothing has more events than defence. Does the Minister not think that the Prime Minister’s Statement yesterday about the willingness to use force in Mali and other places shows that you cannot use a budgeting system on defence in quite the same way that you can in other departments because events take place that need action or no action? With a force depleted to 82,000 personnel, the headlines today of what we are probably going to do in Mali might not be possible in two years’ time.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. We prepare for events, and we are confident that we can handle most things that are thrown at us. Certainly, the National Security Council is meeting as we speak and considering the situation in Mali. I am confident that we can prepare for any eventuality.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, did the National Security Council review the strategic defence and security review 2010 in the light of the Arab awakening, the Libya crisis et cetera? If it did, did it then agree that there should be a further £1.3 billion cut in the defence budget, which is, in fact, what has happened?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is my understanding that the National Security Council meets on a very regular basis and considers every eventuality, but it is not for it to decide the cuts. They are a matter for the Treasury.

[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, I know that Members on the Cross Benches would like to be associated with the message of condolence to the families who have lost loved ones in recent operations. With regard to the matter in hand, does the Minister accept that everything practical and affordable is being done to ease the transition of those who are going to be made redundant, either voluntarily or compulsorily, under this round?

Does he also accept that there is a need, to which other noble Lords have already alluded, to keep current world events under close review in the forthcoming comprehensive spending reviews and the work towards the next defence review? If the world does not looks as safe in the next five, 10 or 15 years as one might perhaps hope, is there not a need for the numbers in our Armed Forces, particularly in our land forces, to be kept under review? Must not the possibility of increased spending in defence, maybe from somewhere else across government, be a possibility and not always the downward effect that we seem to see?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I said earlier, the National Security Council is meeting at this moment. It will obviously be considering world events as they evolve. We are confident that we have the members of Armed Forces to deal with any situation. As the noble Lord knows, we are reducing the numbers next year, coming back from Afghanistan. We have plenty of members of the Armed Forces to deal with these eventualities.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords—

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, the Government’s record in this area is not a good one. Within a few months of getting rid of our carrier strike capability, we found ourselves regretting the absence of a carrier in the Libyan operation and were forced to spend even more money hiring an Italian naval base and providing in-flight refuelling which we would not otherwise have needed. In the present state of affairs, is there not all too great a chance that we might soon regret this hasty decision to reduce our Army, which was taken in rather different circumstances a couple of years ago?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry to hear that from the noble Lord. These redundancies are not new, and were part of the difficult decisions that had to be made to tackle the multi-million pound defence deficit which we inherited from the previous Government.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the challenge faced by the Ministry of Defence and the Army now is whether they can produce the number of reservists who are to take the place of those made redundant from the regular Army? That will need to be kept under review.

Is not the lesson of current events—not least in Mali and perhaps leaking over into Algeria—and of events in Afghanistan that there is definitely a time limit for the use of foreign troops in other people’s countries? The real challenge here is to make sure that we can train local military competence, whether in west Africa or elsewhere. Increasingly, they are the people who want a more ordered and stable world. The local people will increasingly have to be responsible for their own defence.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the first part of my noble friend’s question about reservists, we are confident that we can get up to the number of 30,000, which is our ambition. When my noble friend was Secretary of State, the numbers were about 72,000, of which 30,000 is less than half.

My noble friend makes a good point on training. Much more of the emphasis of our Armed Forces in future will be on training and mentoring our allies throughout the world.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, in the light of previous questions about the funding of unanticipated deployments—action is potentially necessary in Mali— can my noble friend confirm to the House that such eventualities are dealt with through funding from Treasury reserves and not from the MoD’s assessed budget? If he does not have the answer here, can he please write to me to explain?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I will certainly write to my noble friend on this issue. It is my understanding that most of these events are covered by the Treasury reserves.

[Lord Stirrup]

My Lords, the Minister has said that the Armed Forces should have sufficient numbers to deal with most eventualities in future. Those numbers were set out as part of Future Force 2020 in the defence review. Will the Minister reconfirm to the House that, as the Prime Minister stated when he announced the outcome of the review, it would only be viable if we had real-terms increases in defence expenditure from 2015 onwards? Without those real-terms increases, Future Force 2020 will not be achievable.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble and gallant Lord that that is indeed what the Prime Minister said. I cannot envisage the outcome of the next SDSR, which will be after the next election, but I very much hope that that is what will happen.

Armed Forces: Future Size

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for introducing this timely debate. It is clear that on all sides of the House we share respect for the determination, professionalism and bravery of our Armed Forces.

The noble Lord is correct that the welfare needs of our service personnel are, and will remain, a key priority—a duty that we extend to our veterans as well. The Armed Forces have long-standing structures in place to support service families, including welfare officers, trained social workers and other specialists. Under the Armed Forces covenant, the Government have made good progress on improving the care that we provide—for example, by doubling council tax relief to £600 per six-month deployment and ensuring that Armed Forces compensation scheme payments are excluded from means-tested social benefits.

There is much that we are doing with regard to veterans. The Armed Forces mental health strategy enables the co-ordination of policy, and focuses efforts and resources where they are most needed. We have also ensured that veterans will be given priority treatment on the NHS for all service-related conditions.

We work hard to ensure that our service personnel transition smoothly back to civilian employment. All personnel are entitled to assistance through this process. The single services, in partnership with Right Management, work with service leaders to deliver a range of practical assistance, including training and assistance with recruitment. My noble friend Lord Ashcroft, the Prime Minister’s special representative for veterans’ transition, will be reviewing current processes, and we look forward to his recommendations.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, made reference to the annual report on the Armed Forces covenant, which was notified to Parliament last month by means of a Written Ministerial Statement. I warmly welcome the interest in this House in the Armed Forces covenant, and would welcome the chance to debate it should the opportunity arise.

The noble Lord also asked whether Armed Forces advocates had been appointed from all parts of the United Kingdom. I can confirm that there are now Armed Forces advocates in the devolved authorities of Wales and Scotland. Both Wales and Scotland have produced their own commitment papers on how they will implement the covenant, as well as contributing to the Secretary of State’s statutory report. An Armed Forces advocate has not been appointed by the Northern Ireland Executive, as their strict equalities legislation means that implementation of the covenant is more complicated.

Additionally, many local authorities in England, Wales and Scotland have appointed local Armed Forces advocates or champions as part of their commitment to the community covenant, working with local communities to improve access to services and support for serving and ex-service men and women and their families. Relevant UK government departments also have Armed Forces advocates, all of whom are represented on the Covenant Reference Group and are responsible for making sure that their departmental policies uphold the principles of the covenant.

As the noble Lord explained, we live in an uncertain world. As such, we need to ensure we have the capabilities to adapt and address a very broad range of challenges. The NSS and the SDSR made a number of strategic choices: to support the deficit reduction programme; to seek to maintain the UK’s international profile; and to honour our operational commitments in Afghanistan. They remain at the heart of this Government’s approach to foreign, defence and national resilience policies. The NSS also acknowledged the uncertainty of the future strategic environment, and the SDSR responded by prioritising those capabilities across government that will allow us to adapt to changes as they happen.

The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord West, and my noble friend Lord Palmer all mentioned carrier strike. We will have planes. We will have the B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter—the STOVL variant—which, as the noble Lord, Lord West, knows flew very successfully off the USS “Wasp” in November 2011.

In the SDSR the Government confirmed our belief that it is correct for the United Kingdom to retain, in the long-term, a carrier-strike capability. In the short term, however, there are few circumstances we can envisage where the ability to deploy air power from the sea will be essential. That is why we reluctantly took the decision to retire the Harriers and Invincible-class carriers before the new carriers become operational. We did not take this decision lightly, but did so mindful of the current strategic context in which we live. The decision on the second carrier will be one for the next SDSR after the general election.

The Middle East remains a significant source of instability. One immediate risk, as noble Lords said—

[Lord West of Spithead]

Just on a point of clarity, the Secretary of State said that it was an aspiration of this Government that they would run two carriers although the final decision had not been made. Is that the correct decision?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am not sure what the Secretary of State said but I can confirm that this is definitely a decision for the SDSR. It is my personal aspiration that we have a second carrier operating.

As the noble Lord said, an immediate risk is the collapse of the Syrian regime. We will continue to support our allies in the region and would like to see a diplomatic solution but we cannot afford to remove options from the table at this stage. Our current posture in the region supports UK interest in international efforts by securing globally important economical arteries, including the Strait of Hormuz, ensuring the well-being of regional partners and contributing to regional security.

The UK currently has one frigate, one destroyer, four mine hunters and two Royal Fleet Auxiliary support vessels deployed to the Gulf conducting maritime security operations. I can assure the House that the Government continue to keep the Middle East under constant review. We will adapt as required to meet any emerging threats wherever they may arise.

While responding—and being prepared to respond—in the Middle East, we have continued to make significant progress in Afghanistan. We have built the capability of the Afghan national security forces so that they can prevent Afghan territory from ever again being used as a safe haven by international terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda. We have helped to underpin a more stable Government and have overseen elections. We have demonstrated the Armed Forces’ ability to act elsewhere, such as in the seas off Somalia, where we are working alongside navies from around the world to control the spread of piracy.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about nerve agents and chemical weapons. Happily, I can confirm that insurgents in Afghanistan have not used nerve agents or other chemical weapons against coalition forces. There have been a few cases in Iraq where improvised devices containing industrial chemicals and small quantities of chemical agent were detonated, but these did not result in any coalition fatalities. I can also assure the House that our Armed Forces are adequately equipped and trained to operate in an environment where these threats exist, both overseas and in the UK.

The noble Lord asked me to outline the Government’s policy on the replacement of the Trident system. It remains as set out in the SDSR. We will maintain a continuous submarine-based deterrent and will begin the work of replacing the existing submarines. Work on the assessment phase of the replacement submarine programme has been under way since May 2011. The final decision as to whether to proceed with the Main Gate investment decision for the replacement programme will take place in 2016, after the next election.

I can reassure my noble friend that the Armed Forces are not subject to overstretch. As we recover and recuperate from Afghanistan, our flexibility will be greatly enhanced. The SDSR set out plans to transform defence so that we emerge with a more coherent capability in the future, under what is known as Future Force 2020. This required tough decisions to scale back the overall size of the Armed Forces and reduce some capabilities less critical to today’s requirements. The SDSR gave us the full structure of Future Force 2020 which, by the next decade, will enable us to deliver our adaptable strategic posture. It is based on our assessment of the forces required to meet our standing commitments, while conducting three overlapping operations: a simple, non-enduring intervention; a complex non-enduring intervention; and an enduring stabilisation operation.

The top defence priority remains success in Afghanistan. As we move towards Future Force 2020, the ability of our Armed Forces to respond to additional contingent tasking is kept under constant review by the Ministry of Defence. It is from this realistic capacity that additional commitments are delivered.

In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relating to the violence in Northern Ireland, first, I am sure that the House will join me in condemning the violent demonstrations that we have witnessed recently. We should recognise the outstanding efforts of the PSNI and the bravery demonstrated by police officers in maintaining law and order. I call on all political parties in Northern Ireland to engage in dialogue to resolve disputes peacefully. The violence witnessed does not represent the true face of Northern Ireland’s business and community sectors and wider society. Although military operations in Northern Ireland ceased in 2007, our Armed Forces continue to play an important role supporting the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I assure the noble Lord that this will continue.

My noble friend Lord Palmer asked how many generals we will have in an Army of 82,000 and in France. I cannot today give my noble friend a specific answer on the number of generals, but I assure him that, proportionally, there will be a greater decrease in major generals and above compared to brigadier and below.

My noble friend also asked about Iron Dome. The UK currently has no plans to develop or acquire national ballistic missile defence capability. However, each SDSR provides an opportunity to review this position against projected threats. Iron Dome is not a ballistic missile defence system, but is designed to provide relatively short-range protection against rockets and artillery shells. Its role is comparable to the maritime close-in weapons systems deployed by the UK in Operation Telic to protect UK forces in Basra.

I will respond to my noble friend on the issue of generals and the other questions that he asked.

Armed Forces: Long-Term Care

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many members of the Armed Forces have sustained life-changing injuries as a result of their service in Iraq and Afghanistan; and what additional resources will be made available for their long-term care.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, for reporting purposes serious UK operational casualties are usually categorised as having either serious or very serious wounds and injuries. Between 2003 and 2009, 222 UK casualties in Iraq were included in these categories, while the number for Afghanistan between 2001 and November this year was 591. We constantly invest in staff, facilities, patient welfare and treatments, including rehabilitation, to ensure that casualties get the best possible medical treatment and ongoing care.

[Lord Empey]

I do not wish to get into an argument over statistics, but clearly the Minister’s figures cannot possibly at this stage include people who will suffer from mental illness, which, as we know, emerges over time. However given that many of these casualties will require care for anything up to 60 years or more and that the care is of a specific nature which cannot inevitably be supplied by the Armed Forces, what strategy is in place to ensure that the National Health Service, which will have to bear this burden, is adequately resourced? The resources will have to be not only financial but professional, with specific knowledge required to treat these casualties whose sacrifice ensures that we continue to enjoy the freedoms which sadly we so often take for granted.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord asks an important question. I assure him that my department takes this issue very seriously. The continued care of veterans injured while in the Armed Forces remains a key component of the military covenant. When personnel leave the services, responsibility for their healthcare is transferred from the Ministry of Defence to the NHS. We are working closely with the Department of Health to ensure that any service-related medical needs are met throughout their civilian lives. For example, the NHS is introducing national specialist prosthetic and rehabilitation centres to address the long-term needs of amputee veterans. It also recognises concerns about their mental health and is introducing a nationwide network of new veteran-focused mental health outreach and assessment teams.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

Could my noble friend give any breakdown between regulars and reservists in the figures he gave earlier? In their ongoing situations, is there any differential between the resources and support given to regulars and that given to reservists?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can answer my noble friend. In Iraq, of the 222 UK casualties listed as having serious or very serious injuries, 25, that is 11%, were members of the Reserve Forces. In Afghanistan, of the 591 UK casualties listed, 22—4%—were reservists. Those reservists who sustained wounds or illness while mobilised will be retained in service prior to being demobilised and returning to work, to ensure that they receive the best possible welfare support and care and are eligible for the full range of Defence Medical Services care. Once reservists have been demobilised, their local reserve unit continues to ensure that they have access to welfare services.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, when we were in government there was a rule that no one would ever be fired from the services as a result of wounds sustained in the course of duty. Anybody in those circumstances always had a choice of taking a compensation payment and an immediate pension if he or she preferred or taking a compensation payment and remaining in service. I will never forget the occasion when, talking to someone doing an important job in Camp Bastion, I suddenly realised that what he had in place of a left leg was a wheel. Is that rule still in force and will the Government commit to maintain it?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, to the best of my knowledge that rule is still in place. If it is not, I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I very much welcome what my noble friend said in Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about servicemen who suffer severe mental stress. But will he confirm that this does not in any way reduce the need for the very splendid voluntary organisations that work in this field—I mention in particular Combat Stress—which do splendid work with people who often have very long-term mental illness problems following service?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very important point. I have seen some of the excellent work that Combat Stress and the other charities that help with mental health issues do and I have enormous respect for it.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the number of members of the Armed Forces coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan suffering from life-changing levels of post-traumatic stress disorder? Is he aware that in Northern Ireland anyone who has served in the Armed Forces and who is seriously ill in this way is not able to avail themselves of the services offered by Combat Stress—that applies only in England—since it will not deal with a person who is regarded as too unstable, following repeated hospital admissions? For those former soldiers, there is only very limited treatment available on the NHS, with no appropriate therapeutic interventions. I raised a case three years ago of a former soldier who was hospitalised repeatedly for very long periods over three years, was self-harming and had no therapeutic help. Is there nothing Her Majesty’s Government can do to assist such former soldiers in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point. I was not aware of this issue. I will look into it and get back to her on this very important point.

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, I also very much welcome what the Minister has said so far. In helping the Afghan army and police develop responsibility for their own security, what efforts are the Government making for the rehabilitation and long-term care of people in those forces who have suffered life-changing injuries? For example, are processes in place to pass on all the knowledge and expertise gained over the years at Headley Court? What plans are there for the trauma hospital at Camp Bastion after 2014?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there will be a Statement on Afghanistan later. I will be briefed for that and should be able to answer the noble Lord’s question then.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that a number of wounded and sick servicemen have fallen out of the net and live rough in our cities. The coalition Government have decided to remove, and make redundant any minute now, some 25,000 servicemen. The numbers who will fall out of the net will increase. What is required is a national plan to bring these people back into the fold, involving the Ministry of Defence, other departments and the National Health Service, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. What are the MoD’s plans to cater for this?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, most veterans, including the seriously wounded, make a successful transition to civilian life and require little if any assistance after service. The MoD is working very closely with other government departments, the devolved Administrations and voluntary and community sector organisations to address all issues faced by ex-service offenders and homeless veterans.

Afghanistan

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am repeating a Statement made in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a Statement on Afghanistan. Let me once again pay tribute to the brave men and women of our Armed Forces serving in Afghanistan. Theirs is a difficult and dangerous job; they operate in the most demanding of environments, displaying courage and heroism on a daily basis.

Since operations began in 2001, 438 members of our Armed Forces have made the ultimate sacrifice, 11 since my right honourable friend the International Development Secretary made the last quarterly Statement on Afghanistan on 13 September. In the face of such sacrifice, we should be in no doubt about why we are operating in Afghanistan. It is for one overriding reason: to protect our national security. Atrocities on the scale of September 11 2001 must never be allowed to happen again.

We seek an Afghanistan able to manage its own security effectively and prevent its territory from being used as a safe haven by international terrorists to plan and launch attacks against the United Kingdom and our allies. This is an objective shared by our coalition partners in the ISAF and by the Afghan Government.

We in NATO fully support the ambition of the Afghan Government to have full security responsibility across Afghanistan by the end of 2014. Our strategies are firmly aligned. The phased process of transition of security responsibility, agreed at the Lisbon summit, is well advanced and on track.

In accordance with ISAF planning, by the end of 2013 we expect that UK forces will no longer need to routinely mentor the Afghan national army (ANA) below brigade level. This is a move up from our current battalion-level mentoring. It is a reflection of rapidly improving Afghan capacity and capability, and in line with the Chicago milestone.

As the Prime Minister recently announced, a progressive move to brigade-level mentoring will also allow us to make further reductions to our force levels from the 9,000 we will have at the end of this year. Our current planning envisages a reduction to around 5,200 by the end of next year. This number is based on current UK military advice and is in line with the NATO strategy agreed at Lisbon and the emerging ISAF planning. It also reflects the real progress being made in Helmand. We will keep this number under review as the ISAF plan firms up and other allies make draw-down decisions in the new year. Let me be clear; this reduction is possible because of the success of the Afghan national security forces in assuming a lead role.

Across many parts of Afghanistan, security is already delivered by the Afghan national security forces. Today the ANSF have lead security responsibility in areas that are home to three-quarters of the population, including each of the 34 provincial capitals and all three districts that make up the UK’s area of operations. Across Afghanistan, the ANSF now lead over 80% of conventional operations and carry out 90% of their training. They set their own priorities, lead their own planning, and conduct and sustain their own operations. By the middle of next year—marking a moment of huge significance for the Afghan people—we expect the ANSF to have lead security responsibility for the whole country.

This national picture is replicated in Helmand. The ANSF are now firmly in charge in the populated areas of central Helmand, with increasing ability and confidence to operate independently. As the ANA’s confidence in its own ability grows, it is showing an appetite to conduct Afghan intelligence-led raids and we are focusing our advisory effort accordingly.

The focus of our assistance to the ANSF is increasingly switching from company-level activities to mentoring at battalion level. Kandaks from the ANA’s 3/215 Brigade in Nad-e Ali and Nahr-e Saraj have already moved on to the new model, working alongside the UK-led Brigade Advisory Group, and further Kandak advisory teams will be in place shortly. The reaction of the leaders and commanders at all levels in 3/215 Brigade has been one of pride based on self-confidence. This phased transition has allowed the UK-led Task Force Helmand to reduce its footprint significantly. Since April, nearly 50 permanent British base locations have been closed or handed over to the ANSF.

While progress on security has been real and meaningful, partnering is not without risk. The attacks on our forces, including so-called insider attacks perpetrated by rogue members of the ANSF, remind us how difficult this mission is. We are working at every level to suppress this threat. However, we are clear that we will not allow these terrible incidents to derail our strategy or our commitment to the Afghan people.

The insurgents remain committed to conducting a campaign of violence in Afghanistan. They continue to represent a threat to the future stability of the country. The ANSF, supported by the ISAF where necessary, are taking the fight to the insurgents and pushing them away from the towns, markets, key transport routes and intensively farmed areas towards the rural fringe. As a result, the Afghan-led security plan is increasingly able to focus on disrupting the insurgency in its safe havens.

While we cannot be complacent, the picture as a whole is of an insurgency weakened. Enemy-initiated attacks have fallen by an average of more than 10% in those areas that have entered the transition process, demonstrating that the Afghans are capable of managing their own security. More importantly, the geographical pattern of enemy-initiated attacks shows a significant reduction in impact on the local population.

While our combat mission will be ending in 2014, our clear message to the Afghan people remains one of firm commitment. On the security front, at the Chicago summit in May the international community agreed to provide funding to support the continued development of the Afghan national security forces in the years after 2014. NATO has also agreed to the establishment of a new, non-combat mission after transition completes. The UK will support this, including through our role as the lead coalition partner at the new Afghan national army officer academy.

In terms of supporting the Afghan Government as a whole, the Kabul conference in June sent a clear message of regional engagement, and at the Tokyo conference in July $4 billion per year was pledged to meet Afghanistan’s essential development needs. The UK’s combined funding commitments from Chicago and Tokyo are almost £250 million a year.

For the value of this support from the international community to be fully realised, the Afghan Government will need to address the corruption that remains rampant and could become a real threat to the long-term stability of Afghanistan. The Afghan Government now need to deliver on their commitments through the Tokyo Mutual Accountability Framework (TMAF) to establish a legal framework for fighting corruption, improving economic and financial management, and implementing key economic and governance reforms, including elections.

Democracy is taking hold in Afghanistan. Not in the same shape as here in Britain, but Afghan voters can look forward to a future of their choosing, rather than one that is imposed on them. Afghan women enjoy a level of participation in their society and its politics that few could have envisaged even half a decade ago. DfID will continue to provide funding and support to further advance this agenda.

In Helmand, the process of local representation has seen marked improvements. Voter participation during 2012 for district community council elections in the traditionally challenging districts of Sangin, Nahr-e Saraj and Garmsir has been impressive by comparison with levels during previous presidential and parliamentary elections in the same areas. October’s announcement of the 2014 presidential elections is another important milestone in Afghanistan’s history. Many challenges remain, but an inclusive and transparent electoral process will be a real sign of progress.

Ultimately, the best opportunity for a stable and secure Afghanistan for the long-term lies in a political settlement; one that draws in those opponents of the Afghan Government who are willing to renounce insurgency and participate in peaceful politics. Any process will, in the end, require the Afghan Government, the Taliban and other Afghan groups to come together to talk and compromise. We appreciate how difficult this is for the respective parties, so we are working with our international allies to help bring all sides together—in particular, through the engagement of Pakistan in the process. Our aim is to generate confidence and dialogue. Our message to the Taliban is that reconciliation is not surrender; it is an opportunity for all Afghans to sit down together and help shape their country’s future. Common ground can be found, focused on the need for a strong, independent and economically viable Afghanistan.

The future of Afghanistan can be seen in the increased level of economic activity across the country. Bazaars that had been deserted are re-opening and commercial investment is evident in the towns. Basic public services are available to increasing percentages of the population. Nevertheless, Afghanistan, although rich in culture and natural resources, remains one of the poorest countries in the world—a legacy of 30 years of conflict. Its people are proud and hospitable, yet they have suffered unimaginable brutality and deprivation.

Over the last 11 years, we have been helping to ensure that Afghanistan’s past is not inevitably its future. As we move towards full transition at the end of 2014, it is clear that there remain huge challenges ahead for the Afghan people. Our combat mission is drawing to a close but our commitment to them is long term. Progress is clear and measurable, and our determination to complete our mission and help Afghanistan secure its future remains undiminished. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in the lead-up to Christmas time, I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in remembering all those who serve in the Armed Forces and all those who lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. We remember particularly the members of the Armed Forces serving in Afghanistan now and their families. I agree with the noble Lord in commending their bravery and commitment.

I agree that we face a huge number of challenges to overcome. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his and his party’s support for our intentions and for the thrust of the announcement today. We are in Afghanistan to protect our national security by helping the Afghans to take control of their own. We are not trying to build a perfect Afghanistan, rather one that does not again provide safe haven for international terrorists.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me a number of questions. I may not be able to answer them all, but I will endeavour to write to him. The first question was about the number of units replaced. Planning continues to refine the detail of our force levels throughout 2013, but our drawdown will be gradual, responsible and in line with operational needs. As ANSF capability continues to improve and it takes on increasing responsibility for its own security, the focus of our efforts will gradually shift from one based primarily on combat to a training, advisory and assistance role. By the end of 2013, we expect that UK forces will not need routinely to mentor below brigade level, and this will allow us to reduce our military footprint in central Helmand accordingly.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me about the capability of the Afghans. I know that a number of noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords have been to Afghanistan and seen for themselves the huge progress that the Afghan forces have made. I have been out there four times now. Each time I see substantial progress.

Developing the ANSF is obviously a key part of our strategy. It has an essential role in providing security and governance in Afghanistan. Transition of security to Afghan control, as agreed at the Lisbon conference in 2010, is well advanced and on track to be achieved by the end of 2014. Seventy-five per cent of Afghans now live in areas where the ANSF has the security lead, including all 34 provincial capitals and the three districts that make up Task Force Helmand. By mid-2013, we expect all parts of Afghanistan will have begun transition and the Afghans will be in the lead for security nationwide. This will mark an important milestone in the Lisbon road map.

Building the capacity and capability of the ANSF will allow the Afghans to take increasing responsibility for their own security. While it has been critical to achieve the quantity of forces required, work continues to ensure that the quality of the forces steadily improves. There has been real progress since the NTM-A was established in 2009. The capacity and capability of the ANSF have improved significantly over this time. It is deploying in formed units, carrying out its own operations and, as the transition process demonstrates, it is increasingly taking responsibility for security in Helmand and across Afghanistan.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me about capabilities in particular. Artillery, close-air support, medevac, intelligence, surveillance and bomb disposal are areas in which we are working hard to try to build up capability. He asked me if there is any chance of today’s announcement being reversed. A lot of discussions are going on between us and our ISAF allies, but I am not aware that there will be a reverse on this. He asked me whether this is synchronised with our international allies. We have regular and routine discussions with a number of our NATO and ISAF allies on our force levels in Afghanistan.

On the specifics of our drawdown plans in 2013, we have spoken to a number of our key ISAF allies and to the Afghan Government. With our allies, we remain firmly committed to the strategy and timescales agreed at the NATO Lisbon summit in 2010 and to the principle of “in together and out together”. This announcement is entirely consistent with what we have previously said about our force trajectories in Afghanistan, and there should be no cliff-edge reduction at the end of 2014.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked if the role of our Armed Forces will change. As we work with the Afghan forces we will be taking much more of a mentoring and less of a combat role. He also asked me about reserves. As part of our overall drawdown plans, a small number of reservists, who would have expected to deploy to Afghanistan in 2013, will no longer be required to serve there. Reservists still form an important part of our deployment planning and will continue to play a crucial and valuable role in the mission in Afghanistan. The Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985 requires employers to re-employ reservists when they are demobilised. As the reservist has to be re-employed, there is no reservist entitlement to compensation.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me about our future commitment to Afghanistan. The UK and the international community are committed to Afghanistan for the long term. The Prime Minister has stated that we will maintain a relationship with Afghanistan post-2014 based around trade, diplomacy and military training. We are clear that in 2015 the UK contribution will not take the form of a combat role. After the end of 2014, we will have some service men and women there to ensure that all of our kit still there—we hope most of it will come back—comes back. We will have troops on the ground helping the Afghan national army officer academy and getting it off the ground. No decisions about the numbers have been made, but as the noble Lord rightly surmised many discussions are taking place.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me whether the Taliban could be persuaded to return to the Qatar negotiations. I cannot answer that. I will write to him. There was also the question about Pakistan releasing prisoners. That country is key to the future of Afghanistan, and it is important that we have positive discussions with Pakistan.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me about women’s rights. The British embassy in Kabul will continue to monitor threats of violence towards human rights activists, with a particular focus on women. Where appropriate and useful to do so, the embassy will issue statements condemning violence and will raise concerns with senior interlocutors in the Government of Afghanistan. Embassy staff will maintain a regular dialogue with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and other leading human rights and civil society organisations, offering support, sharing views and building understanding.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I join my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in their tributes to our Armed Forces.

We welcome the significant drawdown that is planned for 2013. Can my noble friend reconfirm that our forces during 2013 and 2014 will be focused increasingly on training and mentoring and less on combat missions?

There are four questions that I would like my noble friend to answer; I appreciate that he may well prefer to write to me rather than answering at the Dispatch Box. First, he referred to the discussions with our allies. Does he have any idea of the percentage reductions in the US forces during 2013, compared with our reductions? Secondly, there is no mention in the Statement of equipment withdrawal. Will he indicate the latest thinking and timing regarding our equipment withdrawal? Thirdly, allied military expenditure clearly represents a significant percentage of Afghanistan’s GDP—something like 15%, I believe. Is the Minister aware of any efforts being made by the international community to stimulate or encourage the Afghan economy post-2014? Fourthly, and the Minister will probably prefer to make this statement in writing, will he please confirm and make a clear statement on the Government’s attitude and responsibility towards interpreters and their dependants, where quite clearly we have a considerable degree of moral responsibility?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I reconfirm to my noble friend Lord Lee of Trafford that more and more members of our Armed Forces will take on a training and mentoring role. As the Statement said, 80% of operations are now led by the Afghan national security forces. I have been out there and seen for myself the mentoring and how successful our Armed Forces and our allies are in training up the Afghans.

I will write to my noble friend but, in answer to his questions, so far as I am aware the US forces’ reduction discussions are still taking place. I understand that the Prime Minister spoke to President Obama yesterday, but I will write to my noble friend on this as I am not aware of the exact figures.

Equipment withdrawal is an issue that has come up a lot in the House. We are making quite good progress on the different routes through which equipment would be withdrawn; it will not just be through Pakistan or the northern routes. Obviously some would come back directly by air, while some would go directly by air to countries in the Middle East. A lot of work is going on regarding this issue. Decisions about gifting and what to do with equipment will be made on a case-by-case basis, using the principle of operational priority and value for money to the UK taxpayer. We are reviewing our policies of gifting to ensure that any gifted equipment is appropriate and follows parliamentary, Treasury and National Audit Office rules, but obviously a number of bits of kit will be gifted. Work on managing the recovery of UK equipment is under way. Redeployment began in earnest, and as planned, on 1 October.

My noble friend asked me about efforts to stimulate the economy post-2014. I know that the international community, as the Statement said, has donated a great deal of money to the Afghan Government for that very end, and DfID has a number of different initiatives in Afghanistan.

With regard to the attitude towards interpreters, I have the line on that somewhere, but I assure my noble friend that we stick by our interpreters and will do everything to safeguard their security.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Does the Minister recognise that there will be general agreement in this House, and widely in the country, that 11 years at this level of military commitment in Afghanistan is quite long enough? I welcome the announcement of this withdrawal since the real threat to our national security, which was Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, has long since ended. We should pay tribute to all those who have lost their lives and the enormous number who have suffered life-changing injuries in this very long campaign.

Is the most important part of this Statement not the recognition that it will not be by military means but through political discussions that a better future for Afghanistan will be achieved? I welcome the content of the Statement regarding the efforts that will be made in this respect. That will be very important, if the political discussions move well, as we move towards the extremely difficult exercise of withdrawal of men and materiel from that area. The noble Lord leading for the Opposition referred to the fact that we have been there before and our withdrawals have often been the most difficult part of the exercise. I hope that that will not be repeated in this situation.

We are now committing ourselves to considerable financial support. The Prime Minister said that we are in for the long term, but nothing could be more damaging to that than if there are continuing allegations of corruption. We are aware that certain UK funds ended up in real estate development in Dubai in the hands of certain private individuals, and any suggestion of continuing corruption would be enormously damaging to the national will to continue to support the Afghan people and to carry on the work that has been carried forward so far with the courage, resilience and good spirit of our Armed Forces.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is now time that our Armed Forces started to come back. We have done a very good job in building up the capability of the Afghan national security forces. As my noble friend did, I pay tribute to those members of our Armed Forces who have lost their lives and to the large numbers of members of our Armed Forces, as we heard in a Question earlier, who have had life-changing injuries and wounds. As my noble friend said, it is not just by military means that Afghanistan will end up in a better place. I know that those in the Foreign Office and our ISAF allies are in deep discussions with the Afghan Government and Pakistan. As my noble friend said, we are certainly in this for the long term, and we must do everything possible to try to get on top of the corruption.

With the leave of the House, I will answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Lee about the interpreters. People who put their life on the line for the United Kingdom will not be abandoned. Locally engaged Afghan staff working for our Armed Forces and civilian missions in Afghanistan make an invaluable contribution to the UK’s efforts to help to support the spread of security, stability and development in their country. We take our responsibility for all members of staff very seriously and have put in place measures to reduce the risks that they face. Precautions are taken during recruitment, and staff are fully briefed before taking up employment about any risks involving their work. We regularly encourage staff to report any security concerns immediately. We follow an agreed cross-government policy in considering cases of intimidation or injury on a case-by-case basis. This policy ensures that we take into account the individual circumstances of each case and allows us to decide a proportionate response.

[The Earl of Sandwich]

My Lords, in the absence of any political settlement after 2014, security will be essential to international development, as it is at the moment. What conversations has the MoD had with DfID about the overlap of funding? There will be projects that are close to defence, such as the Sandhurst-type academy, and other, more general humanitarian programmes that will need protection. What provision has the MoD made for that? I have one further question: the road into Pakistan now being open, will some collaboration on the defence front be visible at the time of the handover?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I must make it clear to the noble Earl that our Armed Forces will be out of the combat role in Afghanistan at the end of 2014. Any security for international development efforts will be the responsibility of the Afghan national security forces. We are confident that we have built up their capability to take this on. It is still early days. There is a lot of discussion still to take place about how we can develop all these very important development initiatives that will be taking place in Afghanistan.

I think some equipment has started to leave Afghanistan for Pakistan to make its way home—not a lot, but it will start to flow quite soon. Obviously, as I said earlier, relations with Pakistan are key to the future of Afghanistan.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the Minister replied to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord King. I ask him what work will be done for the many post-active-service service men and women and indeed ex-service men and women around in the country in 2013 and 2014. I am told that those who suffer a life-changing experience sometimes have trouble adapting to civilian life and end up in trouble with the police. Is there any way that the MoD could provide a service so that those whose behaviour brings them to the attention of the police can be referred to the MoD for the support that they need? Some of those—not all of them, I appreciate—who end up in trouble have suffered enormously because of the work that they have done on our behalf.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very important point. Indeed, the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, asked a similar question earlier on. This is a really important issue. I want to take it back to the department and dwell on it. I will write to the noble Baroness when I have had a chance to consider it.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his civil replies to the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, on the question of interpreters. Can he confirm that in Afghanistan these people and others who have served our forces will be treated no less generously than those who were in a similar role in Iraq? I think in most cases it will involve either compensation or refugee status in this country, but in all cases will the Government endeavour to make sure that Afghan families are not split up as a result?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I said to my noble friend, people who have put their life on the line for the United Kingdom will not be abandoned. We will honour that commitment.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I would first like to thank the noble Lord for his great kindness in keeping your Lordships appraised of matters of defence and the meetings that he has within the MoD. This is a new development and it is much appreciated by everybody in your Lordships’ House.

I would like now to come down on to the ground and talk for two seconds or so about this land line. In a withdrawal, people become very defensively minded. I myself have been in one or two. It is vital that we keep the offensive spirit going during this period. Many attractive items will go out on the land line which the Taliban would like to get their hands on. The same goes for Bastion. Therefore it is not only defence of the convoy, but a proper offensive force that is going to disrupt any attack at all that is made. In Afghanistan, even in the old days, when there is a very attractive target those who are disagreeing among the tribes can come together. They might well think of this. In this event, one would be dealing not with the couple of dozen who were infiltrating into Bastion. The force levels of the Taliban—and there are quite a number waiting—would give us something to think about. The offensive spirit has to be maintained to disrupt the problem as it comes. I hope that, in planning the withdrawal, the ground air support that the army needs so much will not be thinned out to a state where it is not at full strength and in support of our forces. Withdrawal is very difficult and dangerous. The best way to handle it is not to be defensive-minded all the time and to retain a proper offensive force.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his kind words about the briefings. These are two-way briefings. I learn a lot from noble Lords who have a lot of experience, like the noble Viscount, of Afghanistan and other areas. Certainly I, my officials and the military who attend these briefings have learnt a great deal. I am very grateful for what the noble Viscount said.

The noble Viscount made a very important point about the drawdown of equipment. We have had a number of discussions about that. We are on the case. I can assure the noble Viscount that it will be properly defended. There will be ground air support and whatever else is necessary to make sure that we get these attractive bits of kit out.

[Lord Lyell]

Will my noble friend first accept my congratulations and thanks for what he has given us today and, as far as I can remember, over the entire campaign in Afghanistan, or at least most of it? The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, has said virtually everything that I would want to say, but my noble friend will know that the House of Lords defence group receives marvellous professional and detailed briefings on a constant basis from my noble friend. Could I possibly look at one more accountancy-style problem that will almost certainly be affecting my noble friend? Of course we want to bring back—and will bring back—the brave men and women, the forces and the equipment. Please will he accept that when everybody is safely back here we on all sides of the House want to see that they are first of all appreciated and that all the work that my noble friend spoke about this morning at Question Time in medicine, health and above all welfare is continued? I hope that he will be able to do that in 2013. I thank him, his officials and each and every person who is in Afghanistan.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his kind words. In return I commend him for all the work he does as secretary of the House of Lords defence group. He asked whether we will ensure that the work of our Armed Forces is fully appreciated. As he knows, all the brigades that return from Afghanistan are invited to march into Parliament. They march in through Westminster Hall, have their photograph taken, and then go downstairs for tea—which invariably ends up as drinking a lot of beer as well as tea. I have spoken to a lot of the officers and other ranks who come in, and they appreciate it enormously. They feel that what they are doing in Afghanistan is fully appreciated by Members of Parliament who send them out there.