Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 10th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 95 is about the use of information supplied by HMRC. I acknowledge that many—possibly most—people believe that if information is given to a government official in one part of government, the Government as a whole have it. That is not the case, and we do need to take care with protecting data. Clause 28(1) allows for the use of any of an organisation’s functions, and the amendment would limit it to the functions for which the information is supplied, it being for the purpose of any other functions of the persons in in subsection (3).

I have explained that extraordinarily badly. This comes of thinking that you can write brief notes instead of a complete speech, which I try and avoid for Committee. I refer noble Lords to the authority of the Bill. Basically, I want to limit the use of information provided under the Bill and to ask the Minister how this will work, how it will be policed and what sanctions, what remedies, there are if information is misused.

Amendment 190—in his absence, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Watson—raises again the issue of a firewall to protect vulnerable people. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Katz, is going to hear a repetition of points that I made on the Employment Rights Bill, because they are relevant here too. The objective is to protect workers who are in particular need of protection because of the abuse, the exploitation, they are experiencing. The amendment would restrict the use of information disclosed for enforcement purposes—enforcement against abuse or exploitation—regarding a subject of abuse who is seeking support, and of information regarding a witness to that exploitation. I shall return to witnesses in a moment.

I became aware during the passage of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 of the conditions to which some overseas domestic workers were subject. Slavery was the right term for them, and a change in the rules was made. It was minor and, frankly, quite inadequate. Our law did not and does not protect migrant workers—not just domestic workers but those in agriculture, care, health and so on—as it should. They are particularly vulnerable to abuse, not just because of the consequences if their existence comes to the attention of immigration authorities, but because of their fear of the consequences. People who do not know their way around the system, who are in fear of any authority figure, are very open to unscrupulous employers who can make threats—the threats may have no foundation at all—that the person may be detained or deported, or that the person’s children will be taken away, so they cannot take the risk of reporting abuse and exploitation. I am told by the sector that this fear is not ill-founded. There is evidence that data is often shared between labour market enforcement agencies, the police and Immigration Enforcement.

The current situation has a widespread effect: mistrust by migrant communities prevents police and labour inspectors doing their job properly, which drives down conditions for all workers. It is not impossible to deal with this. Secure reporting has been implemented in the Netherlands and Spain. I understand that Surrey Police has implemented a firewall, and the Greater London Authority is undertaking a pilot. During Committee on the Employment Rights Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, mentioned that the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration found that allegations raised during inspections were not investigated by the Home Office. As she said, the rights of all workers are only ever as strong as those of the most vulnerable.

One comment made during that debate was that nobody should fear. Another comment—with which, of course, I agree, and which came from the Conservative Benches—was that one of the gravest human rights abuses is modern slavery and human trafficking, and that vulnerable individuals risk slipping through the gaps. The Minister on that Bill argued that blocking information-sharing

“could have unintended consequences and make it harder for the vulnerable individuals concerned to get the help they need and deserve”,

and that the right balance was

“between protecting vulnerable workers and maintaining the integrity of our immigration system.” ”—[Official Report, 18/6/25; col. 2078.]

I would argue that the system actually deters those vulnerable workers from seeking protection, and the clear view of those working in the sector is that the current position is to their very considerable detriment.

The immigration White Paper states:

“We recognise the challenges migrant victims of domestic abuse can face”—


“domestic” is quite a wide term in this context—

“and we will strengthen the protections in place to support them to take action against their abusers, without fear of repercussion on their immigration status.”

This is an opportunity to make an adjustment that would make a very considerable difference to people who do not always get the help they deserve from those who are in a position to make that difference.

The Conservative Front Bench has tabled Amendment 188. I am really intrigued as to why it wants to amend the Data Protection Act, given paragraph 4 of Schedule 2, which we on these Benches have often opposed. We will see. I beg to move.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will be brief, because I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, particularly about the position of domestic migrant workers. This is something we will come back to at later stages of the Bill, but as the noble Baroness has raised it now, I just put on record how much I agree with her. The noble Lord, Lord German, and I recently met with Kalayaan, which does so much extraordinary, wonderful work in this field. We were reviewing with it how things have changed—and what else needs to be changed—in the years that have passed since 2015. I have with me a publication it issued called 12 Years of Modern Slavery, the Smoke Screen Used to Deflect State Accountability for Migrant Domestic Workers.

I know that the Minister agrees with Kalayaan’s 2015 findings, because there is a photograph of the Minister and me, both of us looking considerably younger, alongside our redoubtable friend, now retired from this place, Lord Hylton. We were celebrating the passage of the 2015 legislation but recognising that more still needed to be done. I will not quote at length from the report. If the Minister has not seen it, I will be more than happy to share my copy with him, so that he can study the photographs and see the effects of too much engagement with Bills such as this.

The report says:

“Government data tells us that from 2005 to 2022, the number of visas issued to migrant domestic workers has remained consistent at around 20,000 per year”,


so this does affect a significant number of people doing significant work. Kalayaan urged the Government to take immediate steps to amend the Immigration Rules and reinstate the rights provided for under the pre-2012 visa regime. Among those is the right to renew a domestic worker visa annually, subject to ongoing employment. That is a reasonable demand. I hope that at some stage during the proceedings on the Bill, the Minister will see whether there is a way to address that issue. So I strongly support what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has said.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on a couple of the amendments in this group.

I was listening very carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said on the information-sharing provisions in Clauses 27 and 28, which her amendment refers to. It would be helpful, certainly for me, if the Minister when he responds could be clear about the scope of those two clauses. My reading of Clauses 27 and 28 is that the HMRC data that is allowed to be shared under those provisions is that gained purely through its customs functions, not through its other activities. I am unclear about how that would help—or not—in the very important issues that the noble Baroness raised about the protection of workers and, rightly, the need to crack down on those who abuse people’s immigration status and employ them when they have no right to work in this country.

I very much support strengthening the law in this area and sharing information to support that, but I am unclear on the customs function. The customs data helps strengthen the case about combating organised criminal groups and their transporting of funds and the supplies they use to do this trafficking. That seems to be the purpose of the clause, so it would be helpful if the Minister could flesh that out.

I strongly support my noble friend’s Amendment 188. Whether we support them or not, we should go back to the purposes of the GDPR and the human rights legislation, particularly the GDPR data. The intention of that legislation is absolutely right—that we protect the information of people who are legitimately in the country. However, we should not use that legislation to protect those who are here illegally or who are criminals trafficking in human beings and abusing our laws. It would be much more helpful if that legislation was not used to protect them. Therefore, I very much support my noble friend’s amendment. I know he will set it out in more detail; I just wanted to add my support and to raise the question that arose from the noble Baroness’s contribution.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I will say a couple of words in support of these amendments from my noble friend. As the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, just remarked, it is not as if these changes would be difficult to make: the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to them as simple improvements to the process. My noble friend referred to the current summit: to be honest, I have not seen the results, as I was in meetings all morning. Are there any yet? It has obviously been widely trailed that President Macron will talk about improving the reception by this country of applicants for family reunion. It would be perhaps a little ironic—well, there would be a nice coincidence of efforts—if, from this side, we are proposing simple improvements in process and we also have an ally in President Macron, who is saying, “Please simplify and streamline your family reunion efforts”. That would be a nice entente amicale.

I will make a point that I am not sure any of the other speakers have, which is made in our briefings. Families often become separated, so not only does a family together have to make possible multiple journeys but dispersed members of a family, including children, might have to make multiple trips from different locations. So you are multiplying the risks and the possibility of violence and distress. I think my noble friend referred to one in five families saying they had to resort to using smugglers to reach the visa centre. Well, surely one of the major purposes of the Bill, which we all support, is to try to put the smugglers and people traffickers out of business. Here is a government policy that is helping to give people smugglers more business—we regret it, but it is the reality—which you could avoid by the simple shortcut of making biometrics collectable other than at visa centres and not requiring at least two journeys. The thought of a lone woman or a family with children having to expose themselves to all the threats to safety that we can imagine and are told about is really unconscionable, when it really would not take a great deal of effort by the Home Office to keep people safer, streamline the process and satisfy President Macron, as well as us, all at the same time.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, whether or not President Macron is tuned into our debate today and supportive of what noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, has just said, she will be glad to know, as I was, that the British Red Cross says:

“Extending the relevant clause to include refugee family reunion would ensure families, including children, were able to provide biometrics outside a visa centre and significantly reduce the risks encountered to reach visa centres”.


That was the point that my noble friend Lord Kerr was making during his very good speech—his remarks were eminently sensible, as always—and the invitation to try to extend that provision is long overdue.

The Red Cross interviewed 215 people—100 families. I will summarise just three things that it found:

“Just under half of the people found the journey difficult … 1 in 5 families said they had to resort to using smugglers to reach the visa centre … Just under 60 percent of families were displaced before or during the application process.”


The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, gave an example from Iran. I will give an example, if I may, from the Red Cross, from Sudan. Between 2003 and 2005, I travelled to Darfur. During that genocide, 300,000 people were killed there and 2 million people were displaced. Here we are in 2025 with the war in Sudan, which is often overlooked because events in the Middle East and in Ukraine are so high on our agendas. It has been appalling to see the horrific number of deaths and displacements again in Sudan. It is not surprising, therefore, that Sudan is probably top of the list of those who end up in the small boats trying to cross the English Channel.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I just have a few points to make on the amendments and the contributions that have been made, which I hope means that the Minister can make sure he covers them when he responds.

On the first two amendments, on family reunion, I support the concept and did a lot to support it when I was Immigration Minister. Just to give a balanced argument, though, it is important that we collect biometric information to make sure that the people who are applying are who they say they are. That is of course the reason why—the Minister will confirm this—it is important to get the biometric information before the application is submitted, so that you know that the person making the application is indeed entitled to do so. Clearly, it would be helpful to make it easier to collect that biometric information.

Of course, one challenge with the list of countries read out earlier by noble Lords is that we often do not have our own personnel in those countries, for very sensible reasons. In making it safer for those applying for family reunion, we must obviously be mindful of the risks that might be run by British officials in collecting the biometric information. There are some countries where it would be problematic to do so, because we simply do not have people. I am therefore not sure that it is quite as straightforward as some noble Lords have suggested, but I suspect that, given the progress of technology and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord German—that a lot of this equipment is now much more advanced, portable and transportable—we can make some improvements. I will therefore listen carefully to what the Minister has to say about how we can make things easier for people with a legitimate family reunion claim, while also maintaining our border security.

I want to pick up on one point that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, made—I understand why he made it—about data protection and protecting the rights of children. I think there is a bit of a danger here of focusing on the process and forgetting what the point is. If a child, someone over 16 but under 18, is coming to the United Kingdom in order to get to a safer location, we obviously need to be satisfied that they do not present a risk and are not a criminal or a terrorist from abroad—we know, of course, that in many countries, you can be those things while still being a child. If we are not careful and we overdo the GDPR aspect, for example, the danger is that we will not take the biometric data from the child, or that the circumstances will be such that doing so is problematic. In not doing so, we would not then be able sensibly to give that child safe protection in the United Kingdom—we would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

There is a balance to strike here. If the point of the exercise is that that child is able to get a successful asylum claim and come to the United Kingdom and be safe, we should not let what are otherwise sensible information protections get in the way. There is a risk of missing the point, and there needs to be a bit of proportionality and balance here.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I agree with the general thrust of the argument the noble Lord, Lord Harper, is putting to the Committee. He talked about getting the balance right, and that is really what I was arguing. However, we must not lose sight of the fact that these are children or young people, and we owe them a duty of care. We should get the balance right and not categorise them all as potential criminals or as having been involved in acts of terror or criminality. However, I recognise that there is that potential, and therefore, as he says, we have to get the balance right. We do not want a general disapplication of protections. We want to know that they are going to be used in a measured and sane way.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

As a supplement to that, I add that the balance is already there in the international standards, in things such as making sure there is an appropriate adult present. That does not harm any of the ambitions of the noble Lord. It is just what we would normally expect for minors.

--- Later in debate ---

There are ways around that challenge which we are trying to examine, to see where they can be approved. However, in the context of family migration reunion today, I respectfully hope that noble Lords will reflect on what I have said, as we will reflect on what they have said. For the moment, I hope they feel able not to press their amendments. I give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I am grateful to the Minister. He will recall the example I gave of a two year-old boy in Sudan wanting to be reunited with his grandmother. It took 11 months to do that, and it required the transportation of information half-way across Africa in order to achieve it.

Will the Minister look at the countries generating the largest number of migrants who end up in boats in the channel, on irregular journeys, as some would put it—we all know that Sudan is one of the foremost of those countries—and see if we can do more to prevent people leaving in the first place by dealing with issues like family reunion in a more expeditious manner? I am not asking him necessarily to come forward with amendments to that effect, but even if he were to facilitate further discussions between his department and particularly the FCDO to see how that might be generated, that would be helpful to the Committee.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I will let my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti speak and then respond.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th July 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

31: Clause 13, page 7, line 9, leave out “knows or suspects that” and insert “intends that, or is reckless as to whether,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment gives effect to the JCHR’s recommendation that the mens rea threshold for clause 13 ought to be one of intention or recklessness.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the first part of day 2 in Committee deals with organised immigration crime offences. We will hear later about safeguards and modern slavery, and will return to the question of what might constitute a reasonable explanation on the part of an irregular migrant, but we begin with Amendments 31 and 41 in my name, which deal with mens rea. I am also happy to be associated with Amendments 32, 42 and 53, which are grouped with these. The Committee should note too that these amendments are linked to the next group, beginning with Amendment 33. I will keep some of my powder dry in suggesting why the Minister should also give them a fair wind or at least a promise of further consideration.

The Committee will know that the amendments in this and the subsequent group are among the recommendations contained in the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on the Bill, appearing in the report as amendment 3. I was grateful to the Minister for his assurance that, before we reach the next stage of the Bill in September, there will be a considered response to the JCHR report and its recommendations.

As a grammar school boy from a council estate with a mother whose first language was Irish rather than English, I remember being daunted as an 11 year- old by my first lesson in Latin. Later in life I read with some amusement that Winston Churchill questioned the use of the vocative case “O table” when learning the word mensa. His teacher’s explanation, that it was used to address a table, was met with Churchill’s practical, albeit impertinent, response, “But I never do”. However, I think the great man would have seen much more practical use for the words mens rea, meaning guilty mind in Latin.

Linguistics to one side, my barrister daughter assures me that it remains a crucial concept in criminal law. It refers to the mental state of a defendant at the time of committing a crime, specifically their intention, knowledge or recklessness regarding the prohibited act. That mental element, along with the physical act, actus reus, must be proven for a person to be found guilty of a crime.

My Amendment 31 would leave out “knows or suspects that” and insert

“intends that, or is reckless as to whether”.

This amendment would give effect to the JCHR’s recommendation that the mens rea threshold for Clause 13 ought to be one of intention or recklessness. Amendment 41, which is amendment 4 in the Joint Committee report, appears at Clause 14, page 8, line 9. It would leave out “knows or suspects that” and insert

“intends that, or is reckless as to whether”.

Amendment 41 would also give effect to the JCHR recommendation that the mens rea threshold for Clause 14 ought to be one of intention or recklessness. It would have the same effect as Amendment 31, but in a different clause.

Put these amendments into the context of Clauses 13 to 17, which create three new precursor offences to target the activities of facilitators and organised criminal gangs that look to profit from organised immigration crime. These amendments seek to raise the mens rea threshold for which someone might be caught by the offence of supplying, offering to supply or handling a relevant article for use in the commission of certain immigration offences. The words in Clause 13, “knows or suspects that”, are a lower mens rea threshold compared with intention and recklessness, which is what the JCHR recommendation is urging us to substitute.

The JCHR report notes that

“comparable precursor terrorism offences have a higher mental element, requiring intention to commit or assist in the commission of terrorist acts”.

In paragraph 17 of the JCHR report, Liberty provides an example in its written evidence. It illustrates how a woman fleeing persecution who has had her phone stolen, and her British grandfather who provides her with a phone to help her—despite suspecting that she will use it to contact smugglers—might both be caught by this offence. In paragraph 19 of the JCHR report, ILPA, the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, provides a further example:

“A well-meaning individual providing voluntary humanitarian assistance in Calais hands out SIM Cards. A father receives one and passes a mobile phone and the SIM card to his daughter”.


They may both be prosecuted for having supplied a relevant article.

Paragraph 38 of the JCHR report concludes that

“the breadth of these precursor offences”

captured in Clauses 13 to 17

“poses a risk of unintended harms to those who are most vulnerable”.

These relevant amendments seek to mitigate this risk by seeking greater circumscription and more robust safeguards.

Paragraph 50 of the JCHR report similarly concludes that the precursor offences captured in Clauses 13 to 17

“create uncertainty, extend beyond the Government’s stated … aim, and risk inadvertently criminalising persons who ought to be protected from criminal penalty”.

I hope the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Hanson, agrees that some fine-tuning, while not preventing prosecutions, could strike a better balance. I commend the amendments to the Committee and beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I shall address both the points the noble Baroness has made. On the first, in one sense I am very much looking at it from the point of view of the participants. I want them to be clear that carrying out that particular set of actions would indeed be an offence with a significant penalty, because I want them to then conclude that they do not want to do that and do not want to cross the channel to the United Kingdom from the safe country in which they currently reside. That is the point of the legislation.

On the second point, I am clear, having had some experience of running the immigration regime, and particularly of the development of technology, that the noble Baroness will find that most of the people concerned have mobile telephones and are very well aware of what is going on. There are many groups out there that provide detailed information to migrants about the law and those who can facilitate their being smuggled into the United Kingdom. They are very well aware of changes we make and of the legal position. We were very well aware—I am saying this only because it has just occurred to me—that in the run-up to the election, lots of communications were being made with people in northern France about the likely outcome of that election and whether they should stay put or make the crossing to the United Kingdom. They are very well aware of what is going on, and that is very relevant.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

The example that Liberty gave—the committee did not invent it—is built on a statement by the committee that:

“There is no express distinction in clause 16 between those who engage in such conduct as smugglers, and those who engage in such conduct as asylum seekers, victims of modern slavery, or persons (including children) who may be coerced into carrying items such as phones”.


I am sure that, with his experience, the noble Lord will accept that that is the case. It is about trying to find a balance, so that we can deal with those making money from creating the circumstances to smuggle people in and out of this country and those who are genuine, including children like those whom the committee describes.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

The noble Lord makes half a good point. I agree with him on people who are victims of modern slavery. I think my noble friend Lady May will speak to some amendments on that in later groups.

I am sorry if this disappoints noble Lords, but the fact that the example in the report was given by Liberty does not strengthen the case, in my humble opinion, but somewhat lessens it. When I was Immigration Minister, Liberty spent most of its time trying to undermine our immigration legislation and argued for not protecting our borders. It failed to understand, importantly, that if the British public do not think that we have a robust immigration and asylum system then they will become increasingly intolerant of protecting people whom I believe should be protected. You command wide public support for people genuinely fleeing persecution, for whom we should provide refuge, by being clear that we have the ability to stop those who are not entitled to that protection coming to our country and making a mockery of our system. Organisations in favour of our looking after genuine asylum seekers and people who would meet the test of being a refugee should sometimes reflect that being uncritical, as I am afraid many of them are, about those people attempting to come to the United Kingdom damages the public’s view and our ability to have a system that genuinely helps those who need it, as everyone then gets swept up because the system is not working.

Finally, I may have misunderstood the noble Baroness—I am very happy to take an intervention if I have it wrong—but, on her amendments probing the removal of the defence, she said that she wanted the prosecution to have to make the argument. She said that the current drafting means that people would have to prove their defence beyond a reasonable doubt. That is not my understanding of how this works. It is for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody is guilty of an offence and the legislation, as drafted, provides that there are defences that people can offer as to why they may have conducted themselves in a certain way. Unless I have misunderstood something very badly, that does not require the person to prove their defence beyond a reasonable doubt—all they have to do is, in setting out the defence, raise at least a reasonable doubt with the court that they were not guilty of the offence. That seems the right place to have the test in our criminal justice system. As currently drafted, the legislation does not have the effect that she thinks it does.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord German (LD)]

I did not use the example of a knife. I can refer the Member to the Hansard of the previous day in Committee, which I have already apologised for not being at it because I was working with colleagues on immigration matters in another parliament at which this Parliament is represented. It would be unwise to try and deal with arguments that we had last week, of which I was not a part, but I simply say that the relationship between the offence in this case and the threshold which is being put before it is not significant. I suspect that we will treat and think about this throughout the course of the debate on the whole Bill today when we relate ourselves to the fact that this is meant to be aimed at the smugglers.

One of the things in common to all the people on the north coast of France, who represent so many different parts of the structure that is trying to stop the people taking these dangerous routes, was that they were concentrating on the smugglers. Everything was determined in terms of how they could get at the smugglers, and protecting human life and being humane in what they do as well.

The challenge in the Bill as we go through, and to the Minister, who I hope will give me a hopeful reply on what the man in the next room is saying, is the fact that this is a distinction between making very powerful offences for challenging those who are guilty of this horrible crime of taking people in terrible conditions on what are very dangerous routes indeed.

I have just one final point about the messages which smugglers send to the people who are going to be smuggled. I am sure they will not be saying, “You’d better be careful: the British are changing their laws in these directions”. As we were told by those who intercept their telephones in France, it is much more about where they should go and what they should avoid going to, what they should avoid doing and what they should do in terms of getting their journey. That is really the whole challenge from the smugglers. I welcome the response from the JCHR on the reason why, unanimously, it posed and passed these resolutions.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I am grateful that he ended on that note, because I just want, for the sake of the record, to say that although paragraphs 1 to 52 were agreed unanimously, the entire report was not—two members voted against and one abstained—but it was a very thorough report, conducted, I might say, on all sides with a great deal of diligence and thoroughness. All my colleagues participated in that in a robust way, as the noble Lord might imagine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, would expect me to defend the Bill. We have taken judgments on the legislation and taken legal advice internally in the Home Office, and we think that that is a reasonable legislative framework for the operations that we are discussing. We will discuss in later clauses the scrapping of the Rwanda Act and that preventive deterrent, but the whole purpose of the Bill is to provide some measures of deterrence and of punishment for offences that aid and assist the dangerous illegal crossings for individuals who, in being trafficked, face very serious injury or potential death.

I want to be clear that these powers are not designed for indiscriminate use. Investigations under these provisions will be intelligence-led and focused on enforcement activity on serious organised crime gangs and their enablers, not on the migrants fleeing persecution or those acting with humanitarian motives. I am not giving the Committee theoretical reassurances: these are reflected in how this will operate. The forces trying to stop the criminal gangs will use any legislation that this House passes to ensure that we act as a deterrent but also, therefore, target those individuals who have committed offences under this legislation. They will have the potential to put forward a defence; the prosecution will therefore have the potential to chop that defence to bits and prove that the actions were malicious, as under the legislation before us.

In summary, these clauses contain strong safeguards, including a list of non-exhaustive reasonable excuses, to protect those acting legitimately and in good faith. These safeguards combine with the investigatory discretion that is at the heart of the police’s focus on the real potential criminals in this process, and with the prosecutions that are taken through the CPS and the prosecutions test for charging decisions to be made. Therefore, in my view, the enforcement is targeted, fair and proportionate.

I hope noble Lords will reflect on those points as we continue our scrutiny of the Bill. I urge the noble Lord and the noble Baroness to reflect on what I have said and to consider whether I have convinced them. That is a matter for them to consider in due course, but at the moment I cannot accept their amendments. I assure the noble Lord that the report he has produced will be examined and we will give a full response in due course. I urge him to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has dealt with this group of amendments and for the thorough response he has given to your Lordships in Committee this afternoon. For the avoidance of doubt, I reiterate that the Joint Committee on Human Rights welcomes the overall aims of the Bill—to deter organised crime and prevent the loss of life at sea. It is right that the Government do all they can to ensure there is a legislative framework in place to help eradicate this dangerous criminality. All of us who have spoken in the debate today are agreed about that.

The issue comes down to one of judgment about whether it is preventive, whether it is a deterrent and whether it will really make any difference to those who will anyway try to break these laws. Are we doing the right things to combat this criminality? I do not know all the answers to that any more than the Joint Committee on Human Rights does, but I am grateful for what the Minister said about the importance of the report the committee produced and many of the questions we have rightly raised.

In parentheses, I am glad that organisations such as Liberty take these issues as seriously as they do. They gave very valuable evidence to the committee during its inquiry. You do not have to always agree with the positions of NGOs or groups to know that they are part of the civic response to issues of this kind. We are very fortunate to have such organisations in our country.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, if the noble Lord would give way on a point of agreement, I would be grateful to him. To be clear, I am also grateful that organisations such as Liberty exist and that they have views on things—I just do not agree with them. I too am very grateful that we live in a country where such organisations exist and have contrary views. On that point, we are in complete agreement.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I was about to say that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harper, for the other points he made but, yes, we are agreed about that too. I thank his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and, on the Front Bench, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, for the way in which they put their arguments this afternoon. I was not surprised by those arguments, which were put quite eloquently in our committee, incidentally, as some here will almost certainly remember, by the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, who was of course a Minister in the last Government. We can disagree about these things without having to fall out over it.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Green. We do not agree about many of these questions, but we know there is a public conviction that wants something done about illegality. That is why I argue for safe and legal routes, which my noble friend and I disagree on. We have to find other ways forward of tackling the root cause. I can sound like a broken record about this, but there are 122 million displaced people in the world today and that has doubled in the last decade. If we do not deal with the root causes, we will go on introducing Bills such as this indefinitely, ad nauseam, and will still not get to the root of dealing with the problem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, presented the arguments perfectly as she always does. I strongly agree with her remark that we are taking these actions on slight or no evidence. She said that it does not require much for a prosecution. We must not emasculate our laws or commitments to things such as the refugee convention to try to tackle something we all know needs to be tackled; it is a question of striking the right balance.

I have listened to what the Minister has said in Committee this afternoon. He is right that we should all reflect on this. I look forward to seeing what he has to say to the Joint Committee when he publishes his response. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 31 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

33: Clause 13, page 7, line 12, at end insert “, and
(c) P derives a financial or material benefit, directly or indirectly, from the supply or offer to supply a relevant article.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment gives effect to the JCHR’s recommendation that the scope of the offence in clause 13 should only apply to persons involved in the smuggling of persons for direct or indirect financial or material gain.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I hope that the Committee will bear with me as I now bring Joint Committee on Human Rights Amendments 33, 35, 38, 44, 57 and 203 for consideration. Amendment 33 appears as amendment 1 in the Joint Committee report and would give effect to the JCHR’s recommendation that the scope of the offence in Clause 13 should apply only to persons involved in the smuggling of persons for direct or indirect financial or material gain.

I described in the debate on the earlier group how Clauses 13 to 17 create three new precursor offences to target the activities of facilitators and organised criminal gangs who look to profit from organised immigration crime. Paragraphs 38 and 50 of the JCHR report conclude that the breadth of the precursor offences captured in those clauses risks

“unintended harms to those who are most vulnerable”

and

“inadvertently criminalising persons who ought to be protected from criminal penalty”.

Ultimately, the scope of the offences is therefore broad, and we should at least consider that.

Paragraph 51 of the JCHR report recommends:

“The Government should give consideration to amending the scope of the offences to ensure that they only apply to persons involved in the smuggling of persons for direct or indirect financial or material gain”.


That is what this amendment seeks to achieve.

I refer again to the examples from Liberty and the ILPA on how the scope of these offences might apply to those who are not smugglers. Amendment 35 would insert, at Clause 13, page 7, line 15:

“For the purpose of subsection (2), a defence of reasonable excuse must be interpreted in accordance with Article 31 of the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees 1951, Article 5 of the Protocol against Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air 2000, and section 26 of the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings 2005”,


all of which this country is committed to. The amendment would give effect to the JCHR recommendation that the defence of reasonable excuse in Clause 13 must be interpreted compatibly with the UK’s international legal obligations not to penalise refugees, smuggled persons and the victims of trafficking in certain circumstances.

Clauses 13 and 14 provide for non-exhaustive reasonable excuses to the aforementioned precursor offences. They include actions to rescue a person from danger or serious harm and actions taken on behalf of an organisation that aims to assist asylum seekers for free, not making money out of the exercise. The rationale for strengthening that provision is explained in the recommendations in paragraph 51 of the report:

“The defence of ‘reasonable excuse’ ought to explicitly provide that it must be interpreted compatibly with Article 31 of the Refugee Convention, Article 5 of the Smuggling Protocol, and section 26 of the Council of Europe Convention Against Trafficking”—


hence Amendment 35.

Recall that Article 31 prohibits the general imposition of penalties on refugees on account of their unlawful entry or presence in the country where they claim asylum. This protection applies to refugees who come directly from the state where they first faced persecution. In September 2024 the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees published legal guidance on international protection relating to non-penalisation of refugees on account of irregular entry. It acknowledges that in seeking asylum, many are compelled to arrive, enter or stay in a territory without authorisation or documentation, or

“with documentation which is insufficient, false or obtained by fraudulent means, or by using clandestine modes of entry”.

Article 5 of the Protocol against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Sea and Air, of 2000, provides that:

“Migrants shall not become liable to criminal prosecution”


for the fact of having been smuggled with intent by persons

“in order to obtain, directly or indirectly, a financial or other material benefit”.

Article 26 of ECAT provides for a “Non-punishment provision” for victims of human trafficking who have been engaged in illegal activities provided that

“they have been compelled to do so”.

As the noble Lord, Lord Harper, mentioned during his remarks earlier, we will hear later from the noble Baroness, Lady May, on the subject of human trafficking. In circumstances where victims of trafficking have committed an offence of supplying or handling relevant articles or collecting information likely to be useful in immigration crime, they must not be prosecuted if the commission of these offences was as a result of trafficking. Any prosecution of victims in such circumstances would be in breach of Article 26 of ECAT.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I support almost all the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I said to him yesterday that I thought that the committee’s work had been—I thought carefully about this word—painstaking.

My name and that of my noble friend Lord German are not to a couple of the amendments because he and I had already tabled amendments on the same point when the noble Lord’s were tabled. My noble friend will pursue the point of a defence of not doing action if one was not doing so for financial gain—the same point, in effect, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has made. As my noble friend has said, and we are going to go on saying, the clauses in the Bill should not sweep up asylum seekers, whom one could also describe as victims of smugglers.

I have Amendment 51A, which I picked up from the JCHR report, to add to the list of excepted articles in Clause 15. One of the things that people in this situation, and I am thinking of the asylum seekers now, must feel that they are losing is their dignity. The JCHR suggested adding—“At a minimum”, to use its words—hygiene products. If one is without hygiene products, that adds to one’s sense of a loss of dignity, a loss of looking after oneself as a real person with a proper place in the world, and so on. It is a matter of proportionality.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

The noble Baroness is quite right. This issue was specifically raised by Mr Alex Sobel, Member of Parliament for Leeds, who encouraged us to include those words about hygiene. It was based on exactly what the noble Baroness has just said about our concern for human dignity. We talk a lot during these debates about human rights, but let us also remember human dignity.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

I think one has a right to human dignity, actually. That is probably a point at which I could stop and commend the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I am aware of that. I am merely drawing to your Lordships’ attention the fact that there will be real-world consequences from the interpretation of the legislation when it finally gets Royal Assent and becomes an Act.

As has been said by my noble friend Lord Harper, there are other individual groups who have a vested interest—perhaps for the right reasons—to not consider the security and safety of our border. They are perfectly entitled to believe in there being no borders and in a very loose and liberal interpretation of immigration policy. However, we must be careful when we legislate that we do not allow those people—who are massively out of step with the views of most of the public—to put in the Bill, through advocacy, something that will not be in the long-term best interest.

I cannot add anything more to the excellent points on Amendment 33 made by my noble friend. I oppose Amendments 35 and 44. Although it looks on the face of it beguilingly attractive that we should not be in breach of international treaty obligations which we have signed, my concern is that this is a moveable feast. To put in the Bill quite a prescriptive, tight and draconian interpretation of an international regime which may well change over the next few years is not appropriate. I have no doubt that the 1951 refugee convention will evolve—for the better, I hope—and that certainly the ECHR will be reviewed, as it is not only people in the UK who are concerned about it. The amendments are well meant and make a strong argument, but they would tie the hands of our own judiciary and Ministers.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I do not wish to detain the Committee now, but will the noble Lord, at some point between now and Report, at least have a conversation with me about what he thinks is draconian in these international conventions to which we are already a signatory, and which these amendments will simply ensure that we act upon in the way that is suggested in things that we are already signed up to?

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I am always more than happy to have a conversation with my friend the noble Lord. However, as the Minister himself said not that long ago, the Bill in its entirety is compliant with the current legislation in respect of the Human Rights Act and the European Court of Human Rights. It would be otiose, and at the same time restrictive, to put this stand-alone amendment in the Bill. It would encourage what I have previously described as judicial activism, which we have seen in the immigration tribunal and has been featured in the Daily Telegraph quite regularly. I do not think that is helpful; it would undermine the faith and trust that people have in the criminal justice system. For that reason, I do not think the Bill should be amended in the way that the noble Lord proposes, but I am always happy to be persuaded by him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, for his comments. I do not think there will be very much difference between us on this, and he has made some very strong points which I may echo in my remarks to the Committee.

I just want to re-emphasise three points which are important to the consideration of these amendments. First, the gangs are the targets of the Government’s action, not the people who are seeking asylum or refugee status, or even the people being trafficked without either of those two issues being the reason. The gangs are the targets.

Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, made much reference to the Joint Committee report on the Bill, a copy of which I have for ease of understanding. I just reaffirm to him that it is the Government’s intention to respond to that report prior to Report. Some of the issues that he is bringing forward as amendments to the Bill are recommendations from the report, but we want to examine the report and give a full response to it before Report. So he will have the opportunity to examine the Government’s response prior to tabling any amendments on Report.

I noted, just out of interest, that there were, I think, 12 Divisions among members of the committee during its consideration of the report on Wednesday 18 June, so there was never unanimity even within the committee on what it should say. Therefore, it is even more important that the Government examine all those concerns and reflect on the 12 Divisions that took place, as well as the unanimity in the report that was finally produced after that. It is important that I say that.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I recall that I was keen to tell the noble Lord, Lord German, that in fact paragraphs 1 to 52 had been agreed unanimously. There were Divisions in the report—I mentioned that—but the Minister will be pleased to know that the Labour members of the committee voted in favour of it to a man and woman.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am always pleased to know what my comrades in arms in both Houses have done, and it is important that the Government reflect on all points of view. I simply make the point that there will be a response to the committee’s report prior to Report, and those nuances will be examined as part of the discussion.

The third point that the Government want to put on record—I have said this in earlier discussions—is that the United Kingdom is unequivocally committed to the European Convention on Human Rights, and the measures in the Bill support that aim and are compatible with UK human rights obligations. That leads directly to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lords, Lord Harper and Lord German. Those are the three important principles: gangs are the target; we will respond to the report; and we believe we are compliant.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I remind the Committee that this offence criminalises not specific articles but those who supply. I do not see a realistic scenario in which items mentioned in Amendment 51A, when used for their intended purposes, could be used in connection with an offence under Sections 24 and 25 of the Immigration Act and therefore fall within scope of this offence. However, I understand the intent of the noble Baroness’s amendment. There are legal safe- guards, and we can reflect on this and have a discussion around it. I hope she recognises that the points I have made are equally valid, and that she does not move her amendment. We can examine this issue outside of the Committee.

I hope that noble Lords feel able to withdraw or not move their amendments. Once we have responded to the report, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, can return to any of these issues on Report.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to this long list of amendments. I apologised earlier to the Committee that, inevitably, it was going to take time to get through them all.

We are agreed about one thing. The Bill is there to target those who are profiting from organised crime. There is no disagreement in the House about this. It is not a binary choice between the victims or the profiteers. The people they are exploiting need to be protected, but at present, there is a risk that the most vulnerable are caught by some of these offences. Again, we are agreed about that; how we do it is what matters. It is the role of committees such as the Joint Committee on Human Rights to scrutinise these things in detail—even issues such as hygiene kits. That came up as an amendment in the committee from one of its members, who said that the Government should at least examine this. It is on page 67 of the report, which details amendment 8, which inserts “hygiene kits” in Clause 15, thereby extending the list of included items.

I am grateful to the Minister for his responses to the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Chakrabarti. This issue can be looked at outside of our proceedings. I will take away the points he has made, and those of all noble Lords who have participated in this excellent debate. I will make a couple of brief remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, talked a lot about the international agreements that have been entered into. Our duty is to comply with those. They are living documents, open to challenge and amendment. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, in pressing the Government, as I have done previously, to let us know as soon as possible, before Report, what their thinking is on Article 8 of the ECHR.

It was not just the ECHR that I referred to in these amendments. We also referred to the protocol against smuggling and Article 26 of the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings, published in 2005, to which we are a signatory. These are important questions that we must always benchmark our actions here against. It is not that we are caught in a trap of international agreements; we, as a nation, have entered into them, and they are obligations we must live up to.

As far as the interpretation of the courts is concerned, my noble friend Lord Faulks made a very good point. Just as there needs to be further training—for instance, in lower-tier tribunals, a point we have discussed previously—it is not beyond the ability of our judges to give direction on many of these international conventions, which all of us are very familiar with anyway. Regarding Article 8, the Danish Government and others would not normally be regarded as hostile to international action. Donald Tusk was one of the signatories of the email that the noble Lord, Lord German, referred to earlier—it had no destination but caused quite a lot of controversy inside the Council of Europe and the European Court. It has provoked a debate, which was overdue, on whether that interpretation of Article 8 is correct. We all welcome that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said that we should go after the people who are monetarising this issue. She is right. She is also right that we have had a fine tradition in this country. She said that it was the world’s apology for the Holocaust to introduce the European Convention. A lot of other factors were involved there, but we all know that British lawyers, British politicians and the Conservative Party leadership at that time were deeply committed to the creation of European scaffold to govern some of these questions. Times have changed, and some of the challenges are different. That is not a reason for walking away from our obligations. It is a reason for standing together with others who want to make sense of these things, so that we protect those who are at risk and ensure that we go after those who are acting in a criminal manner.

I will take back to the Joint Committee the points the Minister has made. I am grateful that he will respond before Report. That will give us a chance to decide on amendments of a similar nature, or others which work in the eyes of the Government. We can continue to discuss this outside Committee, and whether it is possible to bring them back. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 33 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have put my name to these two amendments, and I declare that I am co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking and Modern Slavery and vice-chair of the Human Trafficking Foundation. I agree with every word that the noble Baroness, Lady May, said. We need to remember that in these two amendments we are talking about not people traffickers but human traffickers, those who are bringing people from other countries to this country to be enslaved. As the noble Baroness said, many millions of people across the world—men, women and children, including babies—are in that very sad situation.

The idea of this amendment is to recognise that the Modern Slavery Act 2015, brought into Parliament by the noble Baroness, Lady May, does not specifically deal with this. It provides a partial defence under Section 45 for those who are genuine victims of modern slavery, but that does not deal with Clause 14 of the Bill.

Whatever the Minister may have thought, I would ask him to rethink whether in this modern time, when that relatively small number of people coming through either on boats or in lorries or in any other way who are pushed into this country by those who are exploiting them, it is not crucial that it is clear to anyone dealing with them that, if there is a possibility that the person may have been exploited or is coming into this country to be exploited, then the articles that they have need to be looked at in a completely different way. Indeed, under Amendment 49, the articles need specifically to be retained as potentially of value for the first part of the national referral mechanism when the person is going through that rather prolonged process. I strongly support the two amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady May.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I too am a signatory to Amendment 49. It is a great pleasure to support both amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady May. In parenthesis, I should say that, in 2015, along with my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, it was a great pleasure to support what was then ground-breaking legislation. It was a classic, textbook example of how to make good law: first, we had robust pre-legislative scrutiny; the noble Baroness, in her role as the Home Secretary of the day, along with Dame Karen Bradley, was magnificent in steering the legislation through; and we had bicameral agreement across both Houses, with amendments being made and accepted as the Bill went through both Houses.

I might add that the Joint Committee on Human Rights is currently conducting a new inquiry—the Minister will be pleased to hear—into supply chain transparency and modern-day slavery, and the noble Baroness, Lady May, has been extraordinarily generous with her time and in making a wonderful written submission to the committee. I know that this will be taken into account when we come to write our report and its recommendations; 2015 is a decade ago and, as the noble Baroness has recognised, issues like Section 54 need to be looked at again. The way we use the Proceeds of Crime Act needs to be looked at in relation to modern-day slavery and human trafficking. It is another living document, something that, from time to time, we have to go back to. I believe that the whole House would want to pay tribute to the noble Baroness for the commitment that she has given to people who are victims of modern-day slavery.

I referred to Dame Karen Bradley. For some time, I was a trustee of the Arise Foundation charity; I see that my noble friend Lord Hogan-Howe, who was also a trustee of Arise, is here. We became intimately involved in some of the personal cases that were raised by victims of modern slavery. With the noble Lord, Lord German, at an event that he kindly hosted a couple of weeks ago for Kalayaan—another wonderful charity that works with victims of modern slavery—we heard some heart-rending cases of people who had been trafficked but who had come through the national referral mechanism. It would be helpful for later stages of the Bill if the Minister were able to give us some updated information about the numbers of people who are in the national referral mechanism at present, and the average time that people spend in the NRM. At the event in the Attlee Room, hosted by the noble Lord, Lord German, we heard, for instance, from one woman who had been four years in the national referral mechanism.

There is always work to be done, but the noble Baroness’s amendments, especially Amendment 49, are incredibly important. People who go into the NRM have to prove their justification and right to be able to stay in the United Kingdom. If they do not have access to the evidence—if it has been taken away —then it will be impossible for them to prove their case; it will undermine the victim seeking determination by the NRM.

At pages 21 and 22 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report, which I referred to at some length earlier today, the committee warns of the danger of breaching the European Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings, and points to our obligations to victims of modern slavery and human trafficking. We should never forget that victims of modern slavery and human trafficking did not come here willingly and were not migrants; they are victims of a heinous crime. The noble Baroness is right to remind us of the distinctions that we should make.

On 16 April, the Minister replied to my Written Question HL6468, asking for the Government’s response to the manifesto entitled Putting Victims First: Renewing the UK Commitment to Victims of Trafficking and Modern Slavery, which was published in July last year by a coalition of modern slavery organisations. In his helpful Answer, the Minister said:

“The Government continues to engage with the coalition … keeping all aspects of asylum and immigration systems under regular review including in relation to trafficking and modern slavery”.


I would be grateful if the Minister could say whether they have discussed with the coalition the protection of belongings of people likely to have been trafficked and, if so, what response they received. If not, I hope that they will do so between now and Report. I hope that the Government, and the Minister, will accept the excellent amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady May.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that, with those assurances, the noble Baroness—

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, he will remember that I asked him some questions about the national referral mechanism. I do not expect an answer now, but will he agree to write to me about that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I was just coming to the noble Lord’s question in my denouement. As I was saying to the noble Baroness, I hope she can reflect on the assurances I have given and withdraw her amendment. If she is not happy, she can return to these issues, but I hope she will reflect upon them. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, that I do not have the figures he requested to hand. I can undoubtedly find a person who does have them and get them to him in short order. I will do it before we finish Committee.

With that, I hope the noble Baroness, Lady May, will withdraw her amendment.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 26th June 2025 Lords Chamber

I very much hope that the Opposition will be able to find it in their hearts to support this suggestion, because wherever you stand on co-operation with the EU, the fact is that we are talking about trying to nab the criminals, so it makes absolute sense. Of course, the TCA was negotiated by a Conservative Government, so I hope that trying to get good co-operation with Europol can be supported from all sides. As I said, I hope that the Minister will give a positive reaction to suggestions of making the border commander regularly meet the boss of Europol.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, has given us a foretaste of the consideration we will give to Amendment 206, tabled by her noble friend Lady Hamwee and to which I have added my name, which is about Europol. I agree with what she said. I also agree with the interventions made by other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who spoke on behalf of his noble friend Lord Browne, about the importance of consultation. Of course, I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said. She has no reason to fear; no one will ever accuse her of being pompous. She was right to remind us about the importance of the use of words, drawing our attention to “irregular” and “illegal”.

I will speak to Amendment 7, moved very ably by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, on his behalf and that of his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, which spells out what the duties of the commander should be in

“reducing the number of illegal migrant crossings, and … increasing the prosecutions of criminal organisations who facilitate illegal migrant crossings”.

In some ways it seems almost otiose to include this in the Bill, as those are clearly the main reasons why the Government brought it forward in the first place, but I understand the need sometimes to use Bills as a form of semaphore to send out signals and why the Opposition Front Bench might wish to do that.

As the Minister knows, I apologised for being unable to speak at Second Reading because a group of us from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I chair, were in Strasbourg to talk about, among other things, interpretations of Article 8 of the ECHR, prosecutions, the number of illegal crossings—as referred to in this amendment—and the criminal gangs manipulating and profiteering on the backs of often desperate people. During that visit, we met, among others, Tim Eicke KC, who has been the British judge in the European court for the past nine years. As noble Lords will know, the Government have put forward the names of three others who will take his place. I am glad to say that he has told me that he is willing to come to your Lordships’ House when he returns in September to share with us many of the experiences that he has had over these past nine years.

The European court and the Council of Europe are not our enemies; some of your Lordships were able to participate in the debate that I moved on behalf of the Cross Benches a few weeks ago on the European Convention on Human Rights—its origins, which we have been celebrating as it is its 75th anniversary, and its importance in this day and age. The Council of Europe and the European convention are inextricably linked. I wanted members of our committee to evaluate and understand that, because if one were to leave the convention it would mean also leaving the Council of Europe and disentangling ourselves from many of the things that I believe will help us ensure that the number of illegal crossings will be reduced and the number of prosecutions increased, because we have to do these things across borders and with our neighbours. If we do not, we will certainly not stem the staggering numbers of people leaving their homelands to make these dangerous crossings.

The Council of Europe and the court shared our concerns in all the discussions that we had. These are not our enemies. We discussed the exploitation and displacement of a staggering 122 million people—a number that has nearly doubled in the past decade. The number of refugees and persons in need of international protection reached over 42 million, while the number of internally displaced people rose to around 74 million. More than two-thirds of refugees originated from just six countries: Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine, South Sudan, Sudan and Venezuela. A rough but telling extrapolation from these figures suggests that around one in every 67 people on earth has been forcibly displaced. These people are the shadow which hangs over our debate on this amendment and others today.

On 20 June, the Joint Committee on Human Rights published its report on this Bill. It runs to over 80 pages and I commend it to your Lordships. It is available in the Printed Paper Office. At paragraph 13, we remarked:

“It was not within the scope of this inquiry to look at wider issues such as the root causes of the refugee crisis or proposals for offering safe and legal routes to those in need of protection. Whilst this Bill focuses exclusively on tackling organised immigration crime, we encourage the Government to seek to address the underlying root causes which are fuelling the global refugee crisis”.


We cannot dodge that challenge. I strongly agree with the UNHCR, which, in its recent analysis of global trends, was emphatic that, for meaningful progress to be made,

“we must address the root causes”.

It is a point that I have repeatedly—perhaps some would say tediously—made in your Lordships’ House. Simply blaming international humanitarian law will not be part of the solution.

To be clear, the Joint Committee welcomes the Bill’s overall aims to deter organised crime and prevent loss of life at sea. Of course, we would therefore agree with the terms of this amendment as it is drafted. It is right that the Government do all they can to ensure that a legislative framework is in place to help eradicate this terrible and dangerous criminality, but we will not do that by diminishing our obligations to uphold international conventions and commitments.

The noble Lord, Lord Hanson, does an admirable job in his role at the Home Office and I join others in paying tribute to him. I have been deeply impressed by the work he does and it is good to have got to know him over the distance. The Minister knows as well as I do that, if offences are applied too broadly, refugees, victims of people smuggling and modern slavery are being put at risk of being criminalised rather than the smugglers. We have to help the victims as well as tackle the smugglers; it is not a question of one or the other. The Bill needs to target those who are profiting from organised immigration crime. The people they are exploiting need to be protected, but at present there is a risk that the most vulnerable are caught by some of the new offences. We are united in wishing to reduce the number of illegal crossings, but we are wary of enacting laws which could have unforeseeable consequences.

I will return to some of these points in later groups. I will try not to be repetitive—we have to make progress on this Bill. I welcome the debate we have had so far on this group and the spirit in which it has been conducted. It is admirable, and far better than some of the exchanges that we had in the previous Parliament, both in the Joint Committee on Human Rights and on the Floor of the House. I hope, as we proceed, that we will keep these two objectives in our sights: first, to tackle the illegality of those who are putting lives at risk on a daily basis and, secondly, the importance of protecting those who are so vulnerable.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I apologise for not speaking at Second Reading, but I did attend the pre-brief that the Minister kindly gave to Peers.

On Amendment 71, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, I would be surprised if such meetings were not on the agenda of anybody holding the position. I have no difficulty with the concept of putting it in the Bill, but I assume it would be a routine level of co-operation that you would expect. However, if she feels it necessary to insist that it is in the Bill, I personally have no objection to it.

As I said to the Minister, my concern is not with the Bill itself but with what is not in it; that is my biggest worry. We have just heard figures about the international situation and, of course, we require an international negotiation to try to solve an international problem. That is why I am surprised that the Government are refusing even to talk to our allies about the 1951 refugee convention. I asked the Government last August and again a few weeks ago, and they refuse to enter into discussions with our allies on that. I would have thought it was a relatively sensible place to start, because the convention was created after World War Two and the world has changed. The problem is highlighted by what we have just been discussing. International aid is obviously another component and, of course, for economic reasons, we are moving in the opposite direction. There is a contradiction at the core of it all.

--- Later in debate ---

We can dance on the head of a pin on the difference between irregular and illegal, but the general public out there do not get that. They are not interested, because the outcome is the same, as far as they are concerned. We know that there are differences, and we know we have international obligations, but we have to look at those obligations with the people we negotiated them with, because that is the only way you can change. If it is felt that change is necessary, you have to discuss with your interlocutors what those changes might be to bring things forward from post-World War II to the present circumstances we face.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, who makes a really important point about the importance of looking again at the things we committed ourselves to in the circumstances in which those were signed. I reassure him that the Joint Committee takes that view too. While we were in Strasbourg, we discussed a letter which had just been sent by nine different Governments, led by Denmark and Donald Tusk’s Poland—which could hardly be regarded as being anti-international law or on the far right of politics—urging the Council of Europe and the European court to look again at the interpretation of things such as Article 8. I know that is the position of the Government, too. I hope that, as the Bill proceeds, we will hear more from the Government about what it actually is that they would like to see reformed.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. The Minister will be aware that, of course, the ECHR has particular connotations for me and Northern Ireland and how we negotiated the Good Friday agreement. Equally, how its terms are being interpreted, within the United Kingdom internally in particular, gives me cause for great concern. No agreement should be unable to be reviewed or looked at with life experience and the passage and flux of time. All I am saying is that the Government need to do both. The refugee convention of 1951 is another component part of it.

Coming back to the point about the powers of the commander, I believe it has to be the Government that set the strategic objectives. If we are not careful, we are also in danger of having too many cooks here. We have Border Force, this new organisation, the Government themselves, the police and all sorts of people involved, indeed including Interpol operating internationally. My anxiety about all of this is that successive Governments and Parliaments—we are all responsible—were all part of the business model of ruthless people who exploit and take money from unfortunate individuals who find themselves in difficult circumstances.

On the other hand, there are our own failings internally about our record-keeping. I do not believe that we really know who is in this country. We do not know how many Governments are putting potential sleeper cells into our country, and we do not really know who leaves and when. Boats are not the only method of irregularly or illegally getting into this country; the old-fashioned back of the lorry and other means are still there and have to be taken into account.

We have a huge task ahead of us, but I say to the Minister that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and others have substance. I do not see anything wrong with the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Browne; it seems a reasonably sensible thing to do, and I would have no issues with it at all. However, I remind the Minister that, at the end of the day, the buck stops with the Government in setting goals, and it is within that that we should look at how a commander operates, because that person cannot simply exist in splendid isolation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

I appreciate that this group looks rather indigestible, so let me put it in a different way. I will give the amendment numbers so that they are there in the Official Report and it is understood that they have to be read as packages, each relating to a different clause but on the same point. To Clause 13, as well as Amendment 29, I have Amendments 34, 36 and 37. To Clause 14, I have Amendments 40, 43, 45 and 48, and to Clause 16, I have Amendments 52, 54, 58, and 61.

Chapter 2 of this part of the Bill creates various new offences, and these amendments are addressed to what is an offence and what is a defence, and in brief, who has to prove what. As the clauses are constructed, there is an offence if, to take Clause 13, P supplies a relevant article, and P will have a defence if he/she/they show that they had a reasonable excuse. The explanatory statement puts it more elegantly than I could—I credit the Public Bill Office with this; the drafting defeated me, and it was extremely helpful. That is not saying that I do not take responsibility—of course I do. As the explanatory statement says, the amendment

“makes the lack of a reasonable excuse a component part of the offence of supplying articles for use in immigration crime, thus placing the burden of proof upon the prosecution”,

which, of course, is normally the way we do things in this country. If the supply is without reasonable excuse—the prosecution has to show this—P would not be prosecuted if he has a reasonable excuse. One would not start on that journey.

I am very uneasy that the burden is on P. Innocent till proved guilty should be the position, not the equivalent of guilty until proved innocent. I beg to move.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am very happy to support this string of amendments, which has been introduced very digestibly by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and deals with the reverse burden of proof and reasonable excuse.

Earlier in our proceedings, I referred to the publication of the report by the Joint Committee on Human Rights last Friday. It deals at some length with these issues that the noble Baroness has laid before your Lordships. These amendments seek to strengthen the safeguards in these new offences. Paragraphs 20 and 25 to 28 of our report—to which I particularly draw to the attention of the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Hanson—deal specifically with defences and the potentially reasonable excuses referred to in this group of amendments.

Clause 16 provides two defences, the first requiring the person to show that the

“action or possession was for the purposes of a journey to be made only by them”.

If it applies simply to the individual—and not, for instance, to couples travelling with children—it would be helpful if the Minister could tell us the estimates, and I accept that they can only be estimates, of how many channel crossings in small boats are made by one person travelling alone, how many by couples and how many by family groups. I understand that we might not be able to have that information in Committee, but if we could have it between now and Report, I would be very grateful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to this group of amendments and, with the exception of the amendments in the name of my noble friends on the Front Bench, to oppose them. It is always a pleasure, of course, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who brings great expertise to our proceedings.

I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for whom I have great respect, but I have to say that I slightly disagree with him. I have read the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and I feel that the committee’s report in respect of precursor offences is less than compelling, if I am quite honest. I know that the Government will be, to a certain extent, circumscribed because they are not required to respond to the report until August; I am sure we would have benefited in this debate had we had the Government’s response. Nevertheless, the Government have made their position clear—and I support them in this respect—that Clauses 13 to 16 will strengthen the ability of law enforcement agencies to tackle the supply chains for the people-smuggling networks, which I think is what we are all interested in doing.

Although the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, come from the right place and are well-meaning, the real-world impact of them is that they weaken the ability of the Government and the appropriate authorities to tackle people smuggling, because they significantly change the burden of proof in respect of evidence for criminal liability and culpability. That de facto reversal of proof is not in the public interest. So in some respects the result of these amendments being agreed would be pernicious and not in the public interest, and would militate against the strategic priorities of the Government that we support: smashing the gangs and reducing illegal migration.

I do not want to detain the House at this hour with a long discussion on what mens rea means, but it does mean “guilty mind”. There are different aspects—

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

We will come to those arguments on mens rea. They are in later amendments. Perhaps the noble Lord would not want to jump ahead, because the groups of amendments dealing with that come in the next day in Committee on this Bill.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

The noble Lord admonishes me for perhaps jumping slightly ahead, so I will revert to Clause 13 and put a question to the Minister. The honourable Member for the Weald of Kent in the other place, when considering the Bill in Committee, mentioned a potential loophole arising from the draft wording in Clause 13. I accept that, in terms of reasonable excuse, the Bill is caveated in that it is not a definitive position that you have no excuse whatever. It is right that, when you are dealing with individuals, even when they are involved in something as appalling as people trafficking and illegal migration, there should always be some discretion for the criminal justice system to exercise in adjudicating on their alleged offences.

However, there is a question to be asked about Clause 13(3) and the “reasonable excuse” caveat in terms of a loophole. Do the Government see that as problematic in terms of future litigation? I would not use the term “two-tier justice”, but certainly there is an element that speaks to the fact that, if you do not charge for services and you are seeking to rescue a person, that absolves you of criminal responsibility. There is an argument that that sends out a message.

My problem with this group of amendments is that they reduce the push factor and increase the pull factor. Those will be the real-world consequences of making it easier for people to argue that they have a reasonable excuse and did not possess an intent to commit these new offences. So, on this occasion, I will probably agree with the Minister that the House should resist the amendments.

I also pray in aid the example that the Immigration Minister, Angela Eagle, used in the other place. She prayed in aid the case in November 2024 of Amanj Hasan Zada, who organised cross-channel boat crossings from his home in Lancashire. He was jailed for 17 years after being found guilty on people-smuggling charges. It was very much the view of the National Crime Agency and others that, had the proposals contained in the Bill been in place, he would have been brought to justice much earlier, and that it was only because the authorities, particularly the NCA, did not have the ability to use the full force of law in respect of the legislation obtaining at the time that he was not stopped from his abhorrent activities at an earlier juncture.

I finish by saying that we all wish to see fair play and due process. We all want a legal system that does not discriminate on the basis of race, background, ethnicity, religion, and so on, but, equally, we have to be realistic, practical and pragmatic. In the real world, we need to reduce the pull factor and increase the push factor. I think these amendments would do exactly the opposite and, for those reasons, I hope the Committee is not minded to support them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I had asked the Minister about compliance with Article 31.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord’s report has been very helpful. We need to look at that issue, and we will respond to his report in short order. I cannot give him those details today, but I will ensure that they are dealt with in due course.

Immigration System

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord tries very well and very effectively to tempt me to talk about a cap or a figure that we are putting on success. Success for me is that we have a properly ordered, understood, managed system where people who wish to come to this country to work can understand clearly what the rules are; that we have rules that encourage the development of UK-based skills; that we have rules that do not deter people from enjoying the benefits of UK university education but at the same time put some strictures on when and how they should be employed afterwards or leave; and that we begin to tackle the issue of illegal migration in a fair and effective way, but allow people to seek asylum and have that asylum processed. That way, in three years’ time, I will stand here and be able to say to the noble Lord that, while he may not like the framework, there is a clear framework in place that tries to determine how we control our borders rather than just using rhetoric to try to control our borders.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, yesterday the Joint Committee on Human Rights began its legislative scrutiny of the borders Bill. Among the issues raised is, inevitably, Article 8, which the noble Lord has referred to. Given that this is not about directives from the European court but about differences of opinion between lower and upper-tier tribunals within the United Kingdom, we would all welcome greater clarity about what the Government’s interpretation of Article 8 duties actually is. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore agree that, as part of his consultations, he and his department will engage with the Joint Committee and also clarify for us what will be laid before Parliament that is not in the Bill and what is in the White Paper that will affect our considerations when the Bill comes forward? Do those things not need to be woven together?

May I also endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said? I declare an interest as a patron of Hong Kong Watch. The Minister will have seen the letters and emails sent to him, not least from myself and the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, deeply concerned about the reports of the backdating to 2020 of the situation of BNO holders in this country. No one could have integrated better. I salute what the previous Government did about the position of people escaping the tyranny of the Hong Kong dictatorship imposed by the CCP. I hope that the present Government will honour the commitments that were given to the BNO holders who arrived in this country legitimately and legally and will not in any way renege on the promises that were made.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope that I can again reassure the noble Lord that we will continue to operate the resettlement and community sponsorship schemes, such as Homes for Ukraine and the Hong Kong BNO scheme. We will set out how we do that later on. I will agree to meet, as I have said with the Minister, to hear those concerns, but we will set those things out in due course.

On the Article 8 provisions, we want to try to ensure that it is the Home Office that, according to rules agreed by Parliament, determines how we deal with the European Convention on Human Rights while maintaining our membership of it. Therefore, rather than each individual case being subject to a fresh interpretation of Article 8, we will try and set down some general guidance on that as a whole, which I hope helps the noble Lord with his question.

I add one final thing, which is an important thing for our office. Mya Eastwood, who has been my principal private secretary since 4 July, is leaving tomorrow. I just want to pay my tribute to her, because a lot of work that goes on front of House is supported by officials back of House. Mya has done an excellent job, and I want to put that on the record today before I sit down.

Migrants: Indefinite Leave to Remain

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

It should be the noble Lord, Lord Alton, next.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

The Minister will have seen the letter that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has sent to his right honourable friend the Home Secretary about the plight and fate of those children who went missing from asylum accommodation, overseen by the Home Office at the time. What can he tell us about the numbers still involved, their plight or fate, and what more is being done to identify their whereabouts?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. It is a priority for the Government to track down and provide safeguarding measures for those children who went missing under the regime of the previous Government. There are approximately 80 to 90 for whom we do not have records of where they are now. It is priority to understand where they are. The responsibility for that lies not just with the Home Office but with local authorities, such as Kent, which had initial responsibility and now has responsibility for safeguarding issues. It is a priority to find them, and I shall update the noble Lord in due course.

Hong Kong Democracy Activists

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s comments. He will know that the UK Government will challenge the Chinese authorities where we think there are transgressions; this is one of those occasions. We will also co-operate with the Chinese authorities when we believe that we can work together and trade with them when we believe it is appropriate. However, his points are valid.

On the embassy, a planning application is in and will be determined under planning laws like any other planning application. It will be with my colleagues in the department for local government. The Home Office have already submitted a security note on it, as part of the planning application, and that will be considered in due course. I reassure the noble Lord that we take this matter extremely seriously and representations have been made, and will continue, at the highest level.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am patron of Hong Kong Watch and an officer of the All-Party Group on Hong Kong. The inconveniences and irritations experienced by the seven sanctioned parliamentarians, including the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of the Shaws, and me, are nothing in comparison with the bounties placed on the heads of pro-democracy advocates such as the young woman Chloe Cheung. Letters delivered to their neighbours offer £100,000 for information on the pro-democracy activists or their delivery to the PRC embassy.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights is currently conducting an inquiry into transnational repression. We are interested to know from the Minister what laws will have been broken if a dissident, or someone sanctioned or targeted by the CCP, is dragged into a PRC embassy or consulate. That has already happened in Manchester so this is not simply academic. What action, if any, would be taken? Would it be illegal? Would the diplomats be immune? What powers would be used to recover those who were seized?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I reiterate what I said to the Liberal Democrat and Opposition Front Bench: we condemn this action. We have also seen the reports of letters being delivered to neighbours. We are trying to verify the source of those reports and of that information, but the police are certainly looking into this matter and are liaising with those who are in receipt of the letters. The police will assess, independently of government, whether action needs to be taken under any legislation we have to date.

I hope to reassure the noble Lord that, in the event of the circumstances he has described, the police and the Home Office would investigate whether illegal acts have been undertaken. It would be for the police, not the Home Office, to investigate independently in that event. I hope that our representations have been made very forcefully, and that the Chinese authorities will recognise them. We will monitor that situation accordingly.

Iranian State Threats

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

What I was trying to say to my noble friend—which I repeat now to the noble Lord—is that proscription is continually under review. It is possible to proscribe any organisation, and Governments have done that. If we do seek to proscribe, we bring orders before both Houses of Parliament to confirm that. The matter is under continual review. What I do not want to do is to give an indication to this House on whether or not the Government would take that step. However, with this Statement the Government have, for the very first time, sent a very strong signal to the Iranian regime that we will not tolerate its behaviour, by including it in the new FIRS scheme—the very first country to be included. When this scheme goes operational towards the end of the summer, there will be severe penalties for individuals who should register but do not. That is the general thrust, which, as with everything else, is still kept under review, and which I hope sends a very strong signal about the behaviour of the Iranian regime in the United Kingdom and internationally.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister said about the possible proscription of the IRGC, but can he give us any idea how long it will be before Jonathan Hall’s report reaches the Home Office—is there a timeline for that? On transnational repression, the Minister knows that the Joint Committee on Human Rights is working with the Home Office on examining examples of Iranian transnational repression, and we have received evidence from BBC journalists and others who have been personally affected, including pro-democracy advocates. Last week, the Iranian regime’s court rejected the appeal of Behrouz Ehsani and Mehdi Hassani, who were both at risk of imminent execution. Hassani is a father of three; he was arrested in 2022 and taken to Evin Prison ward 209, where he was subjected to severe torture. Following his death sentence, he sent a message to the people of Iran:

“This execution-driven regime knows nothing else. I will not bargain over my life. I am prepared to give my humble life for the freedom of the Iranian people”.


In combating this terrorist state, will the Minister liaise with his FCDO colleagues to ensure that we co-ordinate our efforts to raise those cases with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Human Rights Council and the UN special rapporteur, in order to challenge the grossly wrong, unfair verdicts that have been delivered?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will draw his comments to the attention of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. I am not aware of whether representations have been made in the specific cases he mentioned, but it is a matter I will look into after today. I will write to him with a response from the Foreign Office on those matters; I understand that they are of an urgent nature, so I will do that for him today.

On transnational repression, let me be clear, as I have said already, that it will not be tolerated and it will not be supported. We will take action on these issues. If anyone is concerned for their safety in the United Kingdom, in the first instance they should contact the police, who have had training to ensure that they are aware of the potential threats and dangers. As I have already said, the police are raising both the awareness and capability of front-line officers and staff across the United Kingdom to include an understanding of how threats from foreign powers are presented and how to respond to reports made by members of the public to police forces about potential areas of local concern. The National Security Act, which had cross-party support, strengthened UK legal powers to counter foreign interference, including actions on what would amount to transnational repression. I assure the noble Lord that it is a matter of concern for the Government that we keep citizens safe in this United Kingdom, whatever their nationality.

Asylum Seekers: Accommodation

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I think I recall answering that it was a policy submission that we would reflect on. The important point for the Government is to do three things: first, speed up agreement on asylum claims to ensure that people with genuine asylum claims have a right to live here, and, presumably, will subsequently wish to work here; secondly, put in place Border Force control to stop illegal migration and gangmasters subverting the asylum system; and, thirdly, ensure that we reduce the asylum accommodation that we have, for the reasons mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Young—cost and efficiency—and look at dispersed accommodation in the meantime. I will keep the policy suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord German, on the table as part of the contributions to discussions on how we achieve those three objectives.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall that a few months ago University College London and ECPAT issued a report on the position of asylum-seeking children in these hotels. They found that dozens of children had been kidnapped by criminal gangs from hotels run by the Home Office; 440 children had gone missing, 144 had not been found and 118 were still unaccounted for. Is the noble Lord engaging with ECPAT and University College London about their report and can he update us on the figures—and, if not, can he write to us? Is he aware that the Joint Committee on Human Rights is engaging with the Home Office on this issue? I know him well enough to know that he will take a personal interest, but I hope he will commit today to doing so.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will update the noble Lord in due course. As a rough estimate from memory, around 90 children are still unaccounted for. The importance of safeguarding in asylum accommodation is critical. It is ultimately the responsibility of the local authority where those children are placed. However, I take on board his suggestions and concerns; I will look into them and write to him. It is key to ensure that the safeguarding of unaccompanied children and accompanied children who are at risk is paramount.

Immigration: Human Rights

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an extremely important point. It is not the Government’s intention to drag out the appeals procedure, or indeed the claims procedure. We have been trying since July to speed up the consideration of asylum claims. We have put additional staff in to do that. We want to get the decisions right first time, obviously, and that is an important part of the Government’s proposals to reduce both the asylum backlog and the dependency on hotels, which reached record levels under the previous Government.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in developing the helpful answer he just gave, can the Minister tell us what is the backlog of the outstanding number of cases? How long does it take to clear them on average? Rather than expecting people to subsist on around £7 a day, should we not look again at the opportunity to work while those claims are being considered?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The total number of asylum claims waiting for an initial decision has fallen by 22%, from 125,173 at the end of September 2023 to 97,170 at the end of September last year. That figure of 97,170 cases, which relate to approximately 133,000 people waiting for an initial decision, is down 22% on the previous year but is 13% higher than in the previous quarter. We are trying to get the number down for the very reason mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord German: that a large number of those cases will potentially go to appeal. That number includes individuals in hotels. The problem is that the previous Government put a moratorium on dealing with those issues. We are now trying to clear that backlog and give people a decision. Whether it is to stay or go, a decision is needed.

United Front Work Department

Lord Alton of Liverpool Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I assure the right reverend Prelate that the UK Government take human rights seriously and will, when necessary, make representations and consider action against a regime, be it China or otherwise, that abuses those rights as a matter of course. That is part of domestic foreign policy, and it will be taken into account in all our dealings. The question raised was predominately around the security interests of the United Kingdom, which we keep under consistent review, and we will take action if information is brought to our attention. I go back to my noble friend Lord Beamish; the security services are across this in every way, shape and form. They have warned about this publicly and are providing information constantly to Ministers about performance on these issues. We will take their advice about when the UK faces a specific threat and take into account human rights issues at the same time.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the work he did on the Intelligence and Security Committee. Will he reiterate to your Lordships’ House the findings of that committee that 40,000 members of the United Front Work Department had penetrated

“every sector of the United Kingdom economy”,

including our universities? Why then does the Prime Minister still refuse to officially declare China a threat, while Ken McCallum as head of MI5 says that infiltration is on an “epic scale”?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Prime Minister is taking an approach that is in the interests of the United Kingdom. That approach is about challenging where necessary and referring strongly when we have security information, as we have done this week, but looking at where there are areas of potential co-operation, because we cannot avoid the fact that China is a major player in a number of areas of influence and we have to look at how we can co-operate with it on areas where we have mutual interests. However, I take the point. The noble Lord knows, because it is in the report that I was party to with my noble friend Lord Beamish, that a significant number of states have offensive opportunities towards the United Kingdom. We need to take cognisance of that. That is what the security services are doing each and every day. When information comes to light, we will take action. In the next few months, we will complete the first scheme and bring proposals to both Houses to meet those threats.