Immigration System

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, immigration—this is not about asylum, which is a separate matter—involves a sort of contract between the immigrant and the host country. Each has a part to play, and each should be positive.

We used to talk more than we seem to now, often in the context of the benefits of overseas students in our universities, about the contribution to soft power played by welcoming people to our country, as well as what immigrants—who included my grandparents—contributed to the UK. I am glad that this was acknowledged by the Home Secretary in the Statement, though I am not convinced that the White Paper entirely reflects that, but I have to say I am shocked by some of the language used by the Prime Minister. Both words and tone are important.

I did not follow the logic of the White Paper. Supporting growth, housing and other construction and hospitality and tourism, for instance, require skills that are not at the highest level and work that can be hard but not skilled. Employers who recruit from overseas would not recognise this as the easy option, given the paperwork involved, and certainly not cheap, with high visa fees and the skills charge. Can the Minister tell us how much is expected to be raised by the increase in that charge and invested in training?

I do not accept that carers are unskilled; rather, their skills are not ones that we have traditionally valued. Better payment—the Minister will be aware of the Liberal Democrat policy of a higher minimum wage for carers—and our respect are due. Although the White Paper acknowledges that, the conclusion that overseas recruitment should end is perverse and damaging to carers and to clients. There is abuse by some employers in this and other sectors, but the response reads too much like victim blaming. Can the Minister tell us the timeframes for the fair pay agreements mentioned? I would also be interested in how the Government respond to concern that more and more pensioners will be exhausting their savings on care.

I look forward to migrant workers being given more control over who they work for, reducing opportunities for exploitation. We hope to explore that through amendments to the forthcoming borders Bill, as well as issues around family reunion, about which we have significant concerns. What consultation will there be regarding changes to family migration? What does proper integration support—to use the terminology—look like? Can the Minister clarify at what point in the immigration process, as distinct from citizenship, English language will be tested?

There is to be a new temporary shortage occupation list, including jobs critical to the industrial strategy, which the Minister may say addresses my earlier point, and to an extent perhaps it does. Does temporary mean a temporary list or temporary for the worker? Is it the list that will apply for asylum seekers when they are allowed to work, which should be much sooner than currently while waiting for a decision?

Indefinite leave to remain will “take account” of the applicant’s contribution. How is that to be measured? Five years is apparently not enough. Is it a matter of salary? How much discretion will there be? What data will the Home Office publish in the interests of transparency?

I return to some of the rhetoric. One gentleman has emailed me about how difficult it is for him and his partner—who he tells me arrived in the UK legally, paid visa fees, paid the NHS surcharge and has no recourse to public funds—to read that she is regarded as causing “incalculable damage”. Regardless of the detail, he says,

“it makes us feel unwelcome in the UK”.

These policies affect UK citizens too.

The White Paper refers to many further policies to come. There is a lot to follow up, with a lot of people uncertain, anxious and feeling threatened about their future, and many having thought that their future was clear. I hope there is a lot of consultation to come before policy is set in stone.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to both the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for their contributions, and I will try to answer them. I hope I do not surprise the noble Lord by saying that I am not going to go over the previous Government’s record; I will let that speak for itself. We can all make judgments on that. Government is a difficult place, but there are decisions that the previous Government took in all their forms from 2010 that we disagreed with, though there were things that we supported too, and we are where we are now.

We are trying to put a framework around some key decisions that the UK has to take in relation to the points before us in the White Paper. The key principles in the White Paper are that we need to reduce net migration substantially. We are potentially looking the number of visas issued to fall by up to 100,000 a year by the end of this Parliament as a result of the changes.

We need to link immigration to the UK skills strategy. We need to ensure that we create fair, effective and strictly enforced rules, and that includes what I would term good labour values to ensure that we do not have exploitative workforce practices, we do not have foreign-national criminals who continue to commit crime in our country and we do not have people working undercover because of their illegal entry to the UK. They are good values to ensure that we support work and the workforce as a whole.

It is also a good value that we extend the hand of friendship to those who have lived here, come here and worked here, but also we need to support integration and community cohesion. We need to ensure particularly that we empower Parliament to give a clear definition of family life and that the Immigration Rules are clear for all.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, has mentioned three particular areas, which I will try to respond to. First, should we place a cap on migration and put that figure in there for the Government to be held to? We have taken the decision that we are not going to put a figure on that cap, but we are going to try to keep reviewing all the time the impact of the policies in this White Paper with the objective of reducing net migration over a period of time. Caps have proved a challenge in the past as an area where Governments have failed to hit targets so, while we can debate it and argue about it, that is the decision that we have taken.

Secondly, should we disapply legislation such as the ECHR and other legislation? The Government will abide by our international obligations. We do not intend to withdraw from those obligations, but we will look at, and will consult on, how we apply those obligations in a UK context. There may be room for us to look at that in detail, but there is no indication whatever that we are going to withdraw from those, nor would we wish to, because those are our international obligations and they should be met.

The noble Lord mentioned the visa changes. There will be consultations. A number of the measures in the White Paper will require legislation in this House, either at SI level, at rules level or in primary legislation, and there will be an opportunity for consultation, discussion and contributions from both Houses of Parliament accordingly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, began by talking about the contribution of people who are immigrants to this country. I put on record how much I value those people who have come to this country to make their lives and to contribute. There are a range of services, public and private, where the contribution of people who have come to this country is central to public service, economic growth and business as a whole, and we need to recognise that.

However, we still need to have a system whereby we put some boundaries around migration and around supporting the development of UK society and its needs. There are 9 million people currently economically inactive in this country. What is the skills programme for those individuals? Can we get those people to do some of the work currently being done by people being brought into the country? That is an important issue.

I value very much the contribution of students and universities. We are not stopping students coming to the country, and we are not stopping universities having individuals come to the country. What we are doing is saying, “When you’ve finished your university course, we’re going to review the amount of time you can stay here before you need to make further applications along the lines of the immigration regime that we are putting in place in those areas”.

I know for a fact that we can probably count the number of Presidents, Prime Ministers and business leaders who have been to universities in this country and who value that experience and look back on this country as being the first step on their long road to success. That is important; we are not stopping that. We are simply putting in place an 18-month period after graduation which says that you have to then start look at reapplying, as opposed to being automatically able to stay.

The skills agenda is really important. As I have mentioned, there are a lot of unskilled people who can be brought into the market. Adult social care is important. We will be bringing forward rules to this House about changes in that sphere. However, it is important because a lot of people have abused the adult social care route and we are trying to put some rigour and order into it.

The noble Baroness mentioned exploitation. I am pleased to see the former Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady May. It is important that modern slavery issues, which the noble Baroness, Lady May, championed in the other House in government both as Home Secretary and as Prime Minister, are put into measures that ensure we strengthen that route to avoid exploitation. We need to examine the issues of people coming here illegally, working illegally and being exploited by domestic employment orders, because that undercuts people who are doing legitimate work and legitimate businesses. That is a key issue for the Government.

We will be consulting on the measures the noble Baroness outlined and we will certainly examine in full any representations made. But the Government have to set out a direction of travel. One of the key things we have to do is set out a direction of travel and put some order into the system. Not everybody is going to agree with the direction of travel or the order we put in. But it is important that we have stronger control of our borders and stronger employment and training opportunities for all, that we still attract high level of talent and that we are still open for students to come and for businesses to invest. However, there has to be a framework around that, and the White Paper intends to provide that framework.

Finally, those who have indefinite leave to remain can currently apply for naturalisation after five years, but we have a 10-year proposed ceiling in the White Paper. We are going to look at transition arrangements and make sure we try to give opportunities for further consultation on points to do with naturalisation that we know are important to this House, the House of Commons and, most of all, to people who are here already. That will be subject to further consultation at an appropriate time.

I hope I have answered the questions the noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised, and I await further questions.

[Baroness May of Maidenhead (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his remarks about modern slavery. One way to bring down net migration is to ensure there is no abuse in the visa system. The White Paper touches on this, particularly in relation to student visas. A key way to ensure there is no abuse is to move away from a strict points-based system and give greater discretion to immigration officers. Are the Government doing that? If not, why not?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government want to try to operate a points-based system, but also to put some more rigour into the student post-graduation approach and to look at the fees around coming to the United Kingdom in the first place. The White Paper includes a shortening of the period after graduation. It includes a points-based system examining what skills are required. It gives a commission to the Migration Advisory Committee to look at what the skills shortages are. At the same, we are putting £625 million into skills and training in England to try to raise levels of skills so that graduates—with due respect to graduates—do graduate-level jobs and do not do jobs that can currently be filled by upskilling those who are currently economically inactive in the United Kingdom.

[The Lord Bishop of Lichfield]

My Lords, the White Paper rightly recognises the role that successful integration plays in enabling people to realise their full potential and increasing community cohesion. It particularly highlights the importance of language learning. Yet this, though important, is not the sole factor that influences the extent to which someone is successfully integrated in society. Successful integration is multifaceted. It requires, for example, the provision of adequate housing, employment opportunities, social networks and the ability to navigate services. A more holistic approach to integration is needed—one that extends beyond the development of language skills. What consideration are the Government giving to introducing more expansive measures to facilitate successful integration?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. Integration is about communities reaching out and understanding each other’s differences, but looking at the areas they share and making sure that the pressures on any area of migration do not destabilise the community that those people who have come to this country are part of. That means that we need to make assessments of housing and public services, as well as employment. That is key to the details of the White Paper as a whole.

There will be further examination of the structural needs the right reverend Prelate has outlined and the need for, in our view, better performance on English language for people who are here. By better performance on English language, I am not downplaying the native language of anybody who comes here, but the ability to converse with fellow citizens is critical to integration. That is why we are putting emphasis on that in the White Paper. The points the right reverend Prelate mentioned are also equally important.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the measured tone my noble friend used in answering the question a few minutes ago. However, there are things about the White Paper which cause concern. Do we still have to include students in our net immigration figures? I know we have debated this before, but it seems that, if we could exclude students, the figures would be a bit more honest. I welcome the emphasis on the English language, but I am concerned about the way in which we have used expressions to describe what is going on. Integration in our local communities is surely helped if we have moderate language—the Minister himself used moderate language—to describe the whole immigration situation. In the last few days things have been said which, frankly, have not helped with the process of integration.

May I make two further quick comments? First, I am concerned about social care. I understand the arguments, but it may well be that our social care system, which is already in a state of collapse, will collapse even further. We need some sensitivity on that issue. Finally, on Article 8 and asylum seekers, I hope the Minister can give us more assurance on how this will work. It is mentioned in the White Paper and I hope he will give us further assurance that there will be no inadvertent knock-on from the White Paper into our policy on asylum seekers and refugees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As I have said—I hope I can say this again for the benefit of the House—students contribute to the cultural, economic and soft power of the United Kingdom. We have welcomed students and we will continue to welcome students. But we also have to look at the impact of students on the migration system. At the moment, many students stay in the United Kingdom beyond graduation. What we are trying to do in the White Paper is reduce the time they can automatically stay on and put in place a number of caveats so people will then have to go through the normal migration system and being a student is not seen as a back-door way of coming to the United Kingdom in the longer term. That is a reasonable proposal, which does not stop our soft power or investment in universities but looks at what students do in the long term.

I take the point that my noble friend made about language, which is important. It is really important that we focus on what the Government are trying to do. The five key principles that I have set out are the direction of travel. We want to see better integration. I am pleased that my noble friend mentioned that language is important to that, but integration is also, to go back to the point made by the right reverend Prelate, about churches and other faiths talking to each other. It is about neighbourhoods being mixed neighbourhoods, and about understanding and respecting differences in our culture. At the same time—and this is where the Government are coming from—it is about trying to put a framework around all that to ensure that there is some level of management and control over how immigration is used and how our skills base is raised. I hope that that reassures my noble friend. I shall look at all the points that he has mentioned and continue to have a dialogue with him, because I know that it is a matter of some importance to him.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

I should like to declare an interest as president of Migration Watch UK. Indeed, I have spent 24 years on this subject, but I promise to be extremely brief today.

Much of what the Minister said has addressed the issues that we now face. What this discussion has not faced is the sheer scale of the problems that have emerged in recent years. We had net migration of nearly 1 million in one year, and 700,000 in the subsequent year. These are immense changes, and I welcome the remarks that the Prime Minister made that show some understanding of public opinion on this, which is now becoming very strong.

I make just one point to the Minister, which is that he is going to need a target. I understand very much the breadth of what he has covered and his reluctance to set a target, because it makes life very difficult in future years, but if he wants to persuade the public that he is serious about this, he had better have a target and get very close to it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government have made a judgment, and in the White Paper we are trying to make a judgment about a number of issues. There is legal migration and the issues of who comes, how they come and under what circumstances. We are trying to put a framework around that, which also tries to raise the level of skills of English and British-based citizens who are currently economically inactive to try to meet some of our skills shortage. We are trying to put a target around the impact of universities, both on soft power issues and on longer-term investment in skills and what people do in graduate-level jobs afterwards.

We are trying to look at a range of issues around integration and community coherence, which I think resonates with what the noble Lord has said. But I do not think that setting a target would be a good thing. For us, it is the wrong issue; we are trying to ensure that we put a framework in place to manage those pressures, and to look at what the UK economy needs, at how we build those skills and at how we build integration. Outside of that legal migration route, there is the real challenge, which I know the noble Lord is also concerned about, of illegal migration. A whole range of measures will come before this House very shortly, on 2 June, in the immigration and borders Bill around what we need to do to stop illegal migration and put it to one side.

There are immense challenges, but I hope that noble Lords and noble Baronesses can not only look at the White Paper and be critical of it in parts but look at it in terms of how we are trying to develop a framework and contribute positively to it, rather than look at what is not in it.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, two years ago, during the passage of the Illegal Migration Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I raised the issue that Home Office assessors were muddling up the Hong Kong BNO passport holders with being asylum seekers. I am very grateful to the then Government for correcting that and ensuring that guidance was issued. Yesterday’s White Paper, in simplifying the routes to citizenship, appears to have put the BNO passport holders back in the same group again, as if they were economic migrants and asylum seekers. Given that the status of BNO passports is completely different from that of asylum seekers, will the Minister agree to meet me, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and Hong Kong Watch as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I shall certainly meet the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Dare I say I have had some correspondence over the past 24 hours on this matter. We will reflect on it and, without any commitment, I shall certainly listen to the noble Baroness’s representations.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK’s world-class creative industries require a globally diverse workforce. Will the Minister give the industry and the general public the reassurance that the qualifications required under any future visa regime will take into account the specific nature of the creative industries—because you do not need a degree to be a great dancer or a great violinist? I declare my interest as a member of the boards of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and the Ballet Rambert.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I take on board what my noble friend said. I am very interested in culture as a whole—you do not need a degree to be a great footballer either. I understand that, but again, we are looking at these issues and trying to put some framework around it. I have heard what my noble friend said. Again, this will form part of an opportunity to consult on how this develops in due course, but he has made a point that is worthy of examination.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, the White Paper is about controlling immigration. Will the Government have the ability to control the number of visas in each category, and will they exercise that control—and, if not, why not?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The answer is yes.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

My Lords, there is an acute shortage in the social care sector. Will the Minister recognise that the policies in the White Paper will actually make that shortage even worse? We hear some talk about making the social care sector more attractive. Can he give us any kind of indication of when changes will take place to make the wages in social care attractive enough to bring people away from the retail sector, and to provide it with a proper career structure and the proper dignity and respect that it ought to have?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We will make changes to the Immigration Rules relating to the social care sector during the course of this year, but we are also putting in place a transitional period. There is a need to ensure that we try to meet any shortfall in social care requirements from within the existing UK workforce—that is the objective of government policy. I am happy to discuss with my colleagues and the social care sector how we improve recruitment and other issues, and we will do that through other government departments. The key thing is that we cannot rely completely on overseas labour to fill the UK social care sector.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement and the White Paper both refer to illegal and irregular migration, which is better than what we have heard recently—lumping them both into illegal. Can the Minister confirm that it is legal to enter a country to seek asylum—although, obviously, if it is refused then the person must leave? Can he also clarify the Government’s understanding of the difference between illegal and irregular migration?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness again presses me on that issue, which is absolutely her right. We are trying to ensure that people who have an asylum claim or seek refugee status can have that claim assessed within the United Kingdom or with our partners in the European Union. We are having great discussions as well with the French, Belgians, Dutch and Germans about irregular and illegal migration.

There is a real difference. If somebody claims asylum, that needs to be considered and processed—and, if processed, that needs to be given, if approved. If it is not approved, that person needs to be removed. That is a reasonable and fair thing for Governments to do. Irregular migration, as the noble Baroness will know, is also an issue that the Government will examine, because a whole range of people are seeking refugee status or other things—and there are people trying to enter illegally across the channel. We are having to try to address all those issues.

The Government are putting more rigour into that formal border control at the channel to stop small boats, and we are putting those measures in the Bill that will be before the House very shortly. We are also trying to speed up asylum claims so that they are processed much more quickly to remove people from hotels. At the same time, we are trying to make sure that we continue to meet our international obligations. No one has said that that is easy, but I hope that the White Paper gives some new direction and routes to how we can do it more effectively.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

When the Minister comes to report to the House in a couple of years’ time, what will success for this package of measures look like? With the present policies, the current projection from the ONS is that we will have net migration annually of 340,000 going forward. What number will we hear from the Minister when he says, “We have already pulled it off; this has been really worth while”? If he is not prepared to say that number—and I strongly suspect that he is not—why should anybody in the country, in red-wall, blue-wall or any other seats, believe that this is not just another attempt to kick the can down the road?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord tries very well and very effectively to tempt me to talk about a cap or a figure that we are putting on success. Success for me is that we have a properly ordered, understood, managed system where people who wish to come to this country to work can understand clearly what the rules are; that we have rules that encourage the development of UK-based skills; that we have rules that do not deter people from enjoying the benefits of UK university education but at the same time put some strictures on when and how they should be employed afterwards or leave; and that we begin to tackle the issue of illegal migration in a fair and effective way, but allow people to seek asylum and have that asylum processed. That way, in three years’ time, I will stand here and be able to say to the noble Lord that, while he may not like the framework, there is a clear framework in place that tries to determine how we control our borders rather than just using rhetoric to try to control our borders.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, yesterday the Joint Committee on Human Rights began its legislative scrutiny of the borders Bill. Among the issues raised is, inevitably, Article 8, which the noble Lord has referred to. Given that this is not about directives from the European court but about differences of opinion between lower and upper-tier tribunals within the United Kingdom, we would all welcome greater clarity about what the Government’s interpretation of Article 8 duties actually is. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore agree that, as part of his consultations, he and his department will engage with the Joint Committee and also clarify for us what will be laid before Parliament that is not in the Bill and what is in the White Paper that will affect our considerations when the Bill comes forward? Do those things not need to be woven together?

May I also endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said? I declare an interest as a patron of Hong Kong Watch. The Minister will have seen the letters and emails sent to him, not least from myself and the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, deeply concerned about the reports of the backdating to 2020 of the situation of BNO holders in this country. No one could have integrated better. I salute what the previous Government did about the position of people escaping the tyranny of the Hong Kong dictatorship imposed by the CCP. I hope that the present Government will honour the commitments that were given to the BNO holders who arrived in this country legitimately and legally and will not in any way renege on the promises that were made.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope that I can again reassure the noble Lord that we will continue to operate the resettlement and community sponsorship schemes, such as Homes for Ukraine and the Hong Kong BNO scheme. We will set out how we do that later on. I will agree to meet, as I have said with the Minister, to hear those concerns, but we will set those things out in due course.

On the Article 8 provisions, we want to try to ensure that it is the Home Office that, according to rules agreed by Parliament, determines how we deal with the European Convention on Human Rights while maintaining our membership of it. Therefore, rather than each individual case being subject to a fresh interpretation of Article 8, we will try and set down some general guidance on that as a whole, which I hope helps the noble Lord with his question.

I add one final thing, which is an important thing for our office. Mya Eastwood, who has been my principal private secretary since 4 July, is leaving tomorrow. I just want to pay my tribute to her, because a lot of work that goes on front of House is supported by officials back of House. Mya has done an excellent job, and I want to put that on the record today before I sit down.