National DNA Database Ethics Group

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Friday 19th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

My hon. and noble Friend the Minister of State for Criminal Information (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) has today made the following written ministerial statement:

I am pleased to announce the reappointment of Mr Christopher Hughes, OBE, as chair of the National DNA Database Ethics Group. Mr Hughes was originally appointed in July 2009 for a three-year term. The ethics group provides Ministers with independent ethical advice on the operation and practice of the national DNA database (NDNAD).

Intercept Evidence

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), as other Members have done, on securing the debate. As it is a Back-Bench debate, I am conscious of the need to allow him some time to respond at the end, so I will try to keep my comments to the point and respond as succinctly as I am able to a number of points that have been raised.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman also on the manner and tone that he has brought to this afternoon’s discourse. I certainly recognise his desire to represent his constituents and obtain answers on behalf of his community. I know from discussions that we had around the time of the riots that he has stood up for his community in doing so, and that has been reflected in the manner in which the debate has been conducted.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman understands that because of ongoing legal and other issues, I cannot really comment on the specifics of individual cases. I am aware that the pre-inquest hearing in the case that he mentioned is due to be held next Tuesday, and there is an ongoing IPCC investigation. I certainly recognise the sensitivity of the issues that he has brought before the House this afternoon.

I pay tribute also to my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), whom I had the privilege to work alongside in opposition. I know how keenly he feels about these issues and the amount of work that he continues to put into answering the challenging question of how we can use intercept evidence.

We had an important contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). I certainly do not see the justice system as an impediment to fighting crime, and justice and security need to go hand in hand. I do not see them as somehow mutually inconsistent. The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), with his experience as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and in his role with the Intelligence and Security Committee, highlighted some of the genuine challenges that exist, which I shall discuss. We also heard contributions from the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), and a balanced and helpful contribution from the Opposition Front Bencher, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson).

I underline that the Government are committed to maximising the amount of sensitive material, including intercept evidence, that can be handled in legal proceedings. That is why we set out in the coalition agreement our intention to

“seek to find a practical way to allow the use of intercept evidence in court.”

We have also proposed measures in the Justice and Security Bill to permit intercepted material to be adduced in closed material procedures and certain civil proceedings. In doing that, we remain acutely aware that lawful interception already plays a critical role in tackling serious crime and protecting the British public. It is used in almost all the highest priority counter-terrorist operations and many other serious crime investigations. It is no exaggeration to say that interception constitutes one of the most important and effective capabilities in tackling serious crime and threats to our national security, so it is crucial that we get it right.

We have heard about the Privy Council review and the differing legal and operational circumstances that apply in that regard and it is worth highlighting the considerable burdens on some of the intercepting agencies. Inter-agency co-operation, such as the sharing of sensitive techniques, is less well developed in other countries than it is in the UK, but the comparable examples in other jurisdictions suggest that fewer investigations could be supported and the value of intercept evidence as an intelligence tool might be reduced. It is right, however, that we should continue to examine the examples highlighted in a number of speeches and find our way through this important question.

I should make it clear that when there is relevant and sensitive material, the Government wish to find a mechanism that will enable it to be used in evidence. Finding a means of using intercept as evidence is challenging, however. There can be no clearer demonstration of that than the seven previous attempts that have been made to find a way forward. Any proposal to remove the prohibition on intercept evidence for inquests, for example, runs into a number of difficulties, and we and previous Governments have grappled with them as they relate to the general question of intercept evidence.

One option proposed by the right hon. Member for Tottenham is the disclosure of intercept product to a jury and properly interested persons, such as a family member. This Government considered that, as did our predecessor, and we do not believe that there is a practical way of preserving national security and the basic tenets of the make-up of juries. Crucially, intercept products shared with either a jury or properly interested party takes us back to the more general challenges presented by intercept as evidence, including preventing sensitive capabilities, techniques and approaches from becoming widely known. As things stand, we do not see that there is a viable way forward on that specific point.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether it would be possible for a coroner with the status of a judge to view sensitive material, including intercept evidence. We already have a mechanism through which a coroner may request the appointment of a serving judge as an assistant deputy. That enables the judge coroner to order the disclosure of intercept evidence to him or herself alone when a case’s exceptional circumstances make that disclosure essential in the interests of justice.

The judge coroner would have access to all sensitive material and could consequently be satisfied that the material provided in open court was all that was necessary to hold a proper thorough investigation. That independent assessment would give assurance to the jury and comfort to the family that all the relevant material had been placed before them. Of course, in a small number of cases that sensitive material would be centrally relevant and the article 2 investigative obligation would be engaged. In those circumstances, a statutory inquiry would be needed so that the inquiry panel, as the finders of facts, could see all relevant material. The independent examination of the material, however, together with the appointment of counsel to the inquiry, should ensure that proper account is taken of all the available material and that the interests of the family are properly protected, even if the material cannot be shared publicly.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

I apologise that I was not in the Chamber to hear some of the earlier speeches. I have listened carefully to the Minister. Given what he has just said, will the Government think again about their decision not to provide for a closed material procedure for inquests—something they are prepared to provide in a small number of civil cases?

[James Brokenshire]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that matter was considered during discussions on the Justice and Security Bill currently in the other place, but the Government have determined that at this time it is not appropriate to bring those procedures forward. I hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman heard me say that there is an existing mechanism to assess sensitive material, either through the appointment of a judge coroner to assess the relevancy and centrality of the evidence, or through the inquiry process I have highlighted.

The intercept as evidence review is obviously key to this discussion. It is an extensive and detailed review to assess the benefits, costs, and risks of introducing intercept as evidence in criminal proceedings, compared with the present intelligence-only approach under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. It has a broader remit than previous reviews, thereby avoiding wasted effort on approaches that prove to be non-viable, or being artificially constrained by existing intercept practice. Instead, it will ensure a fair and comprehensive assessment of the pros and cons of intercept as evidence.

The issues are complex and difficult, and as we have heard, there have been seven previous attempts since 1993 to find a way forward. The work is being overseen by the independent cross-party Privy Council group, chaired by Sir John Chilcot, which was reappointed by the Government. As the review is still ongoing, I am not in a position to provide the House with an update on its likely findings, but we will consider issues raised in this debate carefully and return to the House on the matter in due course. We do not want some form of open-ended process, and we recognise the desire to find solutions and a way forward. This is a current review, and work is ongoing to consider whether there is a way to proceed in the face of the challenges we have heard about.

The current intercept as evidence review seeks to build on the findings of previous reviews and the potential impact of a need for terrorist prevention and investigation measures. One clear conclusion of that previous work is that intercept evidence is not a silver bullet that will negate the need for alternative ways to manage risk. We have heard some examples of that this afternoon, and I highlight recent evidence from David Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, who reiterated that intercept as evidence would not be

“a silver bullet that makes terrorism prevention and investigation measures unnecessary”.

A number of issues have been highlighted this afternoon, but I fear that time will not allow me to go through them all in the detail I would have wished. Many overseas countries, both EU and Commonwealth, operate effective intercept as evidence regimes within their legal context. Their experience indicates, however, that the burdens on the intercepting agencies are considerable. The issues of disclosure and how to secure a fair trial are obviously central, and that has been highlighted this afternoon in relation to article 6 provisions. Disclosure, and the practical impact of that on agencies and their overall capabilities, is relevant and something that is being examined closely in the cost-benefit, overarching analysis on capabilities.

I will conclude by reassuring you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Government are committed to finding ways for intercept evidence of sensitive material to be heard in legal proceedings. I am grateful to the House and all right hon. and hon. Members for helping to inform the debate this afternoon, and for assisting in this important work.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)]

3. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the security operation at the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I am delighted by the success of the London 2012 games security operation. We delivered what we promised: reassuringly visible and proportionate security which protected games visitors, competitors and the wider public. I am particularly grateful to the many thousands of police and armed forces personnel who did such a great job, and in such a great spirit.

[Mr Wilson]

Will my hon. Friend join me in praising the hard work and dedication of those in the UK Border Force and all the other agencies whose professionalism made the security and immigration operation at the Olympics not only a great success, but a great advertisement for the UK?

[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the work of the UK Border Force in ensuring that the border was run efficiently and effectively during the games. I think that it is also worth highlighting the work of the Security Service, and that of the volunteers who contributed so much to the games.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The Home Affairs Committee report makes it clear that had it not been for the actions of the Home Office, the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games and the Army, Olympic security would have been a fiasco because of the failure of G4S. Has the Minister seen the Committee’s final recommendation that a register should be established listing the private sector companies that failed to deliver, and will he look into the COMPASS contract which has just been awarded and about which concern has already been expressed?

[James Brokenshire]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for recognising the work that was put in, both many years in advance of the Olympics and during the games themselves. He will doubtless be aware of the work that the Cabinet Office is doing in assessing each major contractor to government. Performance will form part of that analysis.

[John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)]

Further to the earlier question from my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), one of the biggest concerns before the games was the prospect of long queues at ports of entry such as Heathrow. May I therefore congratulate the Minister and the UK Border Force on a job well done in extending a warm and trouble-free welcome, without compromising border security, as the rest of the world arrived on our shores? Will he confirm that he does not view security and welcome as alternative choices to be traded off against each other, and that we can and should expect to deliver both?

[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend has rightly, again, praised the sterling work of the UK Border Force in ensuring that Heathrow and all other ports operated efficiently and effectively, and that not only were people able to pass through the border speedily, but national security was maintained.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that the Minister has paid tribute to the Metropolitan police’s contribution to the success of the Olympic games—a point that was surprisingly omitted from the Prime Minister’s speech in Birmingham, presumably reflecting the poor relationship between Government Members and the Metropolitan police following the altercation with the Chief Whip. Will the Minister spell out more fully his tribute to the very important contribution that the police made to the great success of the games?

[James Brokenshire]

The Prime Minister has said that we have the greatest police force in the world, and I wholeheartedly endorse that. We saw some tremendous efforts by the police—the mutual aid from police forces up and down the country—to ensure that security was maintained during the Olympics and that we had a games of which we were all proud.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

4. What steps her Department is taking to tackle metal theft.

Police Officer Reductions

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Turner, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) on securing the debate, even though I do not agree with a great deal of the assumptions and analysis he has presented this afternoon.

Perhaps we can start on a point of agreement, however, by recognising the work of the police service. As the Minister with responsibility for security during the Olympic and Paralympic games, it has been a privilege for me to work alongside the police. I pay tribute to their incredible work over the 105 days of the policing plan for the events, which ensured that safety and security were provided. We all recognise the job that the police do and the big contribution that they make to keeping our communities safe. In the context of Merseyside police, I also pay tribute to the work of Chief Constable Jon Murphy, which is providing a sense of assurance, and I want to recognise the work that individual police forces and police authorities are doing to respond to the challenge of dealing with budget settlements over the comprehensive spending review.

Turning to the hon. Gentleman’s central argument, the Government have no choice but to deal with the deficit that was caused by the actions of the previous Government, meaning that all public services must constrain their spending. As a service spending £14 billion a year, there is a broad consensus that the police can and must make their fair share of the required savings. The Government are clear that savings need to be made while ensuring that the quality of service that the public receive is maintained and, where possible, improved. This is not about salami-slicing policing resources; it is about transformation and long-term change in the way that services are delivered.

Furthermore, there is a great deal of talk about the reduction in central Government funding for the police, but we must be clear that that is only part of the picture. The police service, nationally, receives around a quarter of its income from the police precept element of council tax. The exact proportion varies from force to force, and I should stress, the level at which it is set is a matter for individual police authorities —or, from November, the police and crime commissioners—to decide.

Nationally, about £2 billion of savings needs to be made by the police service by 2015. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has challenged forces to drive through efficiencies, and it has shown that over half the savings required nationally—some £1.15 billion—could be achieved by forces raising their performance to that of the average of comparator forces.

Action to date in support of and among local forces includes our having extended the public sector pay freeze to police officers and staff, which will save at least £350 million by the end of the spending review period. Savings arising from the implementation of part 1 of Tom Winsor’s “Independent Review of Police Officers’ and Staff Remuneration and Conditions” will support chief officers in keeping posts and maintaining and improving services for the public. The police can, and are, making further savings by adopting an increasingly national approach to buying equipment and services, and forces can also make substantial savings in their IT spending.

On procurement, we are seeing the service operating with increasing commercial intelligence and using its collective buying power to buy more smartly and at a reduced cost. We have supported the service in doing that by mandating the use by all forces of specified framework agreements for purchases in key categories of goods and services, identified through the collaborative police procurement programme.

There is already evidence of the service’s success in delivering even better value from national frameworks by working together to purchase equipment through them. The service can go further in making procurement savings through reducing the volume of spend, as well as through price savings. The Government have consulted on extending the range of mandated categories and are considering the consultation responses. They have also identified the scope for the service to save at least £200 million a year by joining up procurement of non-IT goods and services.

Forces are also making substantial savings in IT. We have seen police spend fall by £73 million last year compared with 2009-10, and we are clear that there are real opportunities for further savings to be made. The new police information communications technology company will play a key role in helping forces make the most of such opportunities. In total, forces are planning to make about 24% of their savings through reducing non-pay costs. As just under 20% of forces’ budgets are spent on non-pay areas, that shows that forces are prioritising finding savings from non-pay budgets.

[Bill Esterson]

The Minister touched on a point that I did not raise, which was about using private companies to run police services. As he will know, that is of great concern to the Police Federation and many others. Perhaps he can help me understand how a private company, where it needs to make a profit, can run services more cheaply to the taxpayer than if the efficiencies were sorted out in-house.

[James Brokenshire]

I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that that has been the experience; a number of private companies, in specific roles and with specific functions, have carried out those services, and many police forces around the country are utilising private companies to deliver some specialist services.

I should apologise for the absence today of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, who is at the police superintendents conference and is therefore unable to respond to the debate. I know that he would want me to send his apologies. He has made the point, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central may know—my right hon. Friend’s comments were reported in this morning’s newspapers—that the private sector can and does have a role in the delivery of certain services. We are clear, however, that the fundamental principle of warranted officers conducting police services is always to be the bedrock of policing. Although the hon. Member for Sefton Central may find it strange to think that private services can deliver, and assist in the delivery of efficient and effective services, we believe that there is a role for the private sector in such a context.

The hon. Gentleman asked about officer numbers. The Government are clear that what matters is how officers are used and deployed. For instance, when the last Government left office, about 25,000 officers and PCSOs were working in non-front-line roles. In some cases, there may be understandable reasons for that, but by and large that is not where the public expect to see them. It is not where their skills, experience and professional judgment are best used and, frankly, it is not where they will deliver best value for money for the taxpayer.

The Select Committee on Home Affairs said in February 2011:

“We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime.”

That point was reiterated in the report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, “Policing in austerity: One year on”, published in July 2012. It is borne out by the evidence from the majority of forces, which, despite also experiencing reductions in budgets and officer numbers, are successfully managing also to reduce crime in their areas. I pay tribute to their work and therefore disagree fundamentally with the analysis that the hon. Member for Sefton Central sought to make.

The Government have a clear vision, which focuses on restoring professional discretion and reducing bureaucracy in the police service. We are committed to taking central Government out of local policing and concentrating instead on the national issues on which the Government should focus. To increase local discretion, we have cut police red tape, saving 4.5 million police hours, the equivalent of 2,100 officer posts. Additionally, the Government are replacing bureaucratic accountability with local democratic accountability through directly elected police and crime commissioners. On national issues, we are introducing the new National Crime Agency, which will lead the UK’s fight against serious and organised crime, strengthen policing at the border and ensure that local police are linked up to work nationally and overseas.

What matters is how effective the police are at fighting crime, and the effectiveness of a police force depends not on overall numbers but, ultimately, on how well it deploys its resources. That is why although total officer numbers across England and Wales fell between March 2011 and March 2012 by 3.6%, recorded crime also fell by 4.2%. I believe that that national picture is reflected in Merseyside.

Merseyside has seen its central Government funding reduced by 6.7% in 2012-13. This year, Merseyside is receiving £264 million of Government revenue funding. The local authority also agreed to increase council tax by 3%—it was one of 22 to do so—meaning that the authority is receiving an additional £64 million of funding through precept for 2012-13. Plans show that Merseyside is planning to increase by 2015 the proportion of officers on the front line from 85% to 91%, which is higher than most other forces. The force has also planned to have 76% of its total work force on the front line—again, a higher proportion than most other forces.

Service delivery continues to be protected. In the past year, recorded crime has remained flat in Sefton Central and has fallen in each of the other Merseyside police boroughs. Between March 2011 and March 2012, total recorded crime across Merseyside fell by 3.5%. The force currently retains more than 200 points at which the public can access police services. I also point out that victim satisfaction for Merseyside is, at 88%, greater than the level for England and Wales as a whole. I pay tribute to the work that is conducted in Merseyside.

Although we may disagree on a number of fundamental issues, I trust that the hon. Member for Sefton Central will agree with me that the vast majority of police forces are rising to the challenge posed by the funding and work force reductions made necessary by the budget deficit, which, I say again, was caused by the actions of his Government.

Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

May I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) on his second place in the ballot and on introducing this Bill on a subject that rightly interests all hon. Members? Hon. Members from across the House vividly described the impact of metal theft on communities, so it is right that we had the opportunity to debate these issues this morning. There is a great deal of consensus on the nature of the problem, the scale of its impact and the need to examine solutions to deal with this crime, which is adversely affecting many of our communities, and that has been reflected in debates in this House over a number of months.

Some issues do deserve further scrutiny, as my hon. Friends the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Shipley (Philip Davies) have identified, but I believe that they can be dealt with in Committee and that the Bill addresses a number of significant issues and concerns that have been raised. Although I take on board the effect that initiatives such as Operation Tornado have had—it is important that we recognise that—they can take us only so far. In order to get a universal approach—universal buy-in—legislation is required. I believe that there is broad recognition of the fact that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is no longer fit for purpose, which is why it is appropriate that we are considering these matters in detail and why my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South is right to introduce his Bill today. It deserves fair consideration and a fair hearing, and the support that I hope there will be from hon. Members from all parts of the House.

The Bill is not a silver bullet, as my hon. Friend rightly said. We need to take a balanced approach between enforcement, prevention and disruption, but the legislation contemplated in the Bill is important in addressing a number of those elements. This is about being balanced within a broader framework of enforcement. The investment that the Government have provided through the metal theft taskforce is a significant step forward in seeking to deal with the intelligence and to build partnerships together. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) highlighted the issue of exports, and he was fair and right in putting the matter in that broader context, too. However, his comments showed why intelligence is also being co-ordinated. I hope that what we are doing will telegraph some further support for the National Crime Agency, as that proceeds, in harnessing intelligence and ensuring a cohesive, co-ordinated approach to dealing with serious and organised crime.

The 1964 Act is widely seen as being outdated and in need of reform, and as not reflective of the current £5.6 billion industry. It is important to recognise the wide support that the Bill has already attracted. We have heard clearly about the impact that metal theft has had on churches, cathedrals and other places of worship. Notably, the Archbishops Council of the Church of England has given its support, recognising the steps the Government have taken and saying that

“now is the time to support the introduction of new legislation for the scrap metal trade.”

The Local Government Association highlights the fact that nine in 10 councils are affected by such crime and says that further steps are required, that there is a need to introduce further regulation and that it supports the proposals for local authorities to have that stronger say in and control over the licensing of scrap metal dealerships.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley highlighted the importance of contributions made by the British Metals Recycling Association, and it is important to note that Ian Hetherington, the director general, has said:

“The Private Member’s Bill will help close the numerous loopholes present in the current regulatory framework that will enable stolen metal to continue to be sold for cash and bolster unlicensed operators at the expense of compliant businesses.

BMRA hopes the Bill makes swift progress through the legislative system in order that the full range of regulatory measures can be implemented in a single process to avoid confusion for the industry and for the police, Local Authorities and other enforcement agencies.”

There is broad consensus across a number of different parts of the industry as well as law enforcement and other agencies, and that is reflected in the Bill. It is therefore important to recognise the impact of metal theft.

The incidence of metal theft has increased rapidly in recent years and the Home Office estimates that there were between 80,000 and 100,000 reported metal theft offences in 2010-11, costing the UK economy some £220 million to £260 million a year. That is one estimate, but I also recognise that there are higher estimates. The Association of Chief Police Officers provided an estimate of as much as £777 million when the costs of the direct result of infrastructure disruption are also factored in.

We see the impact on so much of our infrastructure, on power companies and on our rail infrastructure, as we try to get around when signalling has been disrupted as a consequence of metal theft. Only this week, we saw 89 homes without power in Stockport following an attack at a local substation. We simply cannot put a price on the costs incurred by members of the public and businesses as a result of the disruption. It is not just about infrastructure, however. Our churches and our community monuments feel the impact of this appalling crime. In London, 16 brass plaques from different monuments and cemeteries have been stolen over the past two years, including from my own constituency in Sidcup. The plaques remembered more than 15,000 war dead. We also saw the shameful theft of the river of life memorial plaque to Johnathan Ball and Tim Parry in Warrington and the destruction and theft of Barbara Hepworth’s bronze sculpture from a south London park over the new year. That sculpture was insured for £500,000.

Such crimes are wanton, selfish and callous and show no respect for our communities. Frankly, those who are responsible deserve our contempt. I point out to those watching our debate this afternoon the personal impact of the crimes. I do not think that anyone present in the House today could have been anything other than moved by the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) about the personal and emotional impact of these crimes. That is why it is important to take action to deal with such incidents.

I know that the police have undertaken considerable work to identify where stolen metal is being sold and where it is going to. The UK is a major exporter of scrap metal, with more than 9 million tonnes of metal leaving the UK legally last year. Although we must be aware of the risk of stolen metal being directly exported, we believe that the vast majority of stolen metal is still being laundered through the scrap metal industry. It is therefore right that our attention should be focused on that industry and it has become clear that the regulation is woefully outdated and in desperate need of reform.

However, I put it clearly on record that the industry does vital, good work, and clearly benefits our economy. We should recognise that there are many reputable scrap metal dealerships, but the industry itself acknowledges that to protect the legal part of the industry and raise the bar, legislation and further regulation are required.

The Government have already taken action, both operationally and by making some initial legislative changes. As Members will know, in the previous Session the Government made initial legislative approaches in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which received Royal Assent in May. It prohibits cash payment for scrap metal, amends police powers of entry to unregistered scrap metal sites, and increases the financial penalties for offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. We anticipate that those measures will be brought into force in the autumn.

However, we did say that that was a first step, and we always considered the 1964 Act to be outdated and in need of reform. That is why the Bill is important. Through the private Member’s Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South, we have an opportunity better to regulate the industry. The Act is ineffective and needs change. It does not reflect the 21st-century scrap metal industry, and the materials that dealers now purchase. It does little to ensure that dealers maintain accurate records of transactions, or verify a seller’s identity. The Act merely requires records of transactions to be made. It does not enable a local authority to refuse to register a dealer, or to remove a dealer from the register, if that dealer is not suitable to operate as a scrap metal dealer. Nor does it provide any powers to close unregistered businesses. Scrap metal dealers can register at no cost, so local authorities cannot cover their costs. There is also the issue of itinerant collectors, which is largely an issue of enforcement. Many of the people who go round with vans have not registered with local authorities or been recorded by the police, as is required under the legislation. That needs to be addressed as part of broader reforms, and to be covered by a broad legislative framework.

In effect, the Act does little to stop the purchase of stolen metal or encourage higher trading standards across the industry. The Bill before us will change that, by putting in place a more robust, local authority administered, licensing regime for the scrap metal industry. It is right to allow only those individuals and businesses that are considered suitable to operate as scrap metal dealers. The test for suitability should mirror the one used by the Environment Agency in relation to its environmental regulations, and should include a consideration of all relevant unspent convictions. That will support law-abiding scrap metal dealers, while ensuring that elements in the industry that are only too happy to purchase stolen metal can be effectively tackled and closed. The Home Office agrees that the licensing authority should be the local authority, rather than the police, the Environment Agency or some other local body.

It is right to introduce a fee, so that local authorities can recover the cost of administering and seeking compliance with the regime. That should ensure that the regime is effectively managed, and that illegal operators can be tackled. The Home Office has been working with the Local Government Association to cost that licensing fee. We believe that it will be a reasonable fee that will not be disproportionate. It will cover local authority costs relating to the administration of, and compliance with, the regime. It is right and proper that details of that should be provided clearly in Committee, so that the industry is cognisant of how a proper balance will be achieved.

It is important to note the requirement for verification—a point that the right hon. Member for Delyn highlighted. I point to the reference in the explanatory notes to how identity could be verified; it could be done through documentation including passports, driving licences, and bank and utility documents, but not identity cards, which this Government did not consider an appropriate measure. That is why it was one of the first things we scrapped. If the right hon. Gentleman is interested in issues that have not hung around for very long, I challenge him back on that topic.

It is important to note that the Bill will provide powers to close unlicensed scrap metal dealers. The regime will provide for the courts to close premises that should not be operating—the ultimate sanction.

The Bill has been widely called for by Government Departments aware of the need to regulate the industry, by parliamentarians, not least through the Commons motion passed in February, by law enforcement organisations, by victims of metal theft, by public and private industry and those who represent the third sector, and most notably by the scrap metal industry itself. The Government believe that action will be limited without necessary reform to regulate the scrap metal industry. The private Member’s Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South provides us with the opportunity to make the necessary changes. We must seize the opportunity, and I hope that all Members of the House will support this much-needed reform.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63.)

Oral Answers to Questions

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

4. What progress she has made on the draft Communications Data Bill; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

We published the draft Communications Data Bill on 14 June. The draft Bill will now be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee of both Houses and a parallel inquiry by the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Joint Committee has begun its work and is due to report in November.

[Simon Hughes]

I am grateful to the Minister for his answer. He will know that the draft Bill, particularly in clause 1, gives very wide powers to the Secretary of State by order. Will he tell us whether the Secretary of State has yet written those orders? In any event, will he give the undertaking that they will be published at the earliest available date?

[James Brokenshire]

It is worth underlining that communications data are an essential tool in solving and prosecuting crime. It is important that that is not eroded by changing technologies, which is why we need the flexibility to respond to change. We are working closely with the Joint Committee. We are absolutely committed to the pre-legislative scrutiny and to ensuring that the Committee can conduct robust scrutiny of the Bill.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

The Minister said that he was working with the Joint Committee on which I serve. He will be aware that the Joint Committee has not been given sight of the order. Will he promise that we will have a chance to see it while we are carrying out the pre-legislative scrutiny?

[James Brokenshire]

As my hon. Friend will know, scrutiny of the draft legislation is only just starting. I understand that the first sitting of the Joint Committee is due to take place this week. Officials from the Department will consider this matter and give evidence to the Committee. I will commit to keeping the issue under review as the legislative process develops, because we recognise the need to ensure that the Bill and the scrutiny that we will respond to are effective. We need to recognise that this is an important matter in ensuring that crimes continue to be prosecuted.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

5. What steps she is taking to help the police prevent crime in rural areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

12. What assessment she has made of the likely key areas of expenditure in implementing the proposals contained in the draft Communications Data Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

As I told the House some moments ago, the Government published the draft Communications Data Bill on 14 June. It was accompanied by an impact assessment, which estimated overall cost for the likely areas of expenditure.

[Duncan Hames]

That estimate of overall costs was £1.8 billion. When the last Government first introduced plans for identity cards, the Home Office estimated costs at between £1.3 billion and £3 billion. By the time the coalition Government wisely cancelled ID cards, that estimate had passed £5 billion. How can we have confidence that these proposals will not also prove to be a burden on industry and the taxpayer alike?

[James Brokenshire]

I agree with my hon. Friend that the ID card scheme was disproportionate and intrusive, and a waste of public expenditure. Our proposals for communications data are critical to support for essential day-to-day police operations. The alternatives—covert human intelligence sources, directed surveillance and undercover officers—are more expensive, more intrusive and less effective.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

What assessment has the Minister made of the potential ability of terrorists to find their way around the provisions of the Bill?

[James Brokenshire]

The whole point of the Bill is that it provides flexibility. The key aspect of it is that it allows co-operation and collaboration with internet service providers to ensure that we respond to the changing nature of criminal operations. Criminals are changing their tactics, and the legislation needs to move with them.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

13. What progress she has made on the matter of deportations and article 8 of the European convention on human rights; and if she will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

T10. The recent conviction of rioters from Nottingham was secured in part by forensic evidence recovered from the wicks of smashed petrol bombs, but the Forensic Science Service has been abolished, staff numbers have been slashed and local forensic services still face multi-million pound cuts. What assurance can the Secretary of State give my constituents that front-line forensic services will not be harmed by her Government’s cuts?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

We had to address the problems with the Forensic Science Service, which was, sadly, making unsustainable losses. New arrangements have been put in place with private contractors and we are confident in the robustness of those measures.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

The median income in my constituency of Bradford East is £16,200, more than £2,000 below the income threshold to bring a spouse to the UK. How on earth does it help integration to deny people the right to a family life?

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 2 July, be approved.

The Government are determined to do all we can to minimise the threat from terrorism to the UK and our interests abroad. Proscription of terrorist organisations is an important part of the Government’s strategy to tackle terrorist activities. We would therefore like to add the organisation Indian Mujahideen—the IM—to the list of 47 international terrorist organisations, amending schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the 10th proscription under the 2000 Act.

Section 3 of the 2000 Act provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she believes it is currently concerned in terrorism. The Act specifies that an organisation is concerned in terrorism if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism; prepares for terrorism; promotes or encourages terrorism, including through the unlawful glorification of terrorism; or is otherwise concerned in terrorism. The Home Secretary may proscribe an organisation only if she believes it is concerned in terrorism. If the test is met, she may then exercise her discretion to proscribe the organisation.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way so early in what will probably be a short contribution. What reviews have been conducted of all the other organisations on the list? Every time these orders come up, we seem to add to the list, rather than subtract from it.

[James Brokenshire]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to tell the House that an annual review is undertaken in respect of all the proscribed organisations. I also note the recommendation from David Anderson, the independent reviewer on terrorism, in respect of a mechanism for de-proscription. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are examining that recommendation carefully, and that we will respond to David Anderson’s report in due course.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The Select Committee’s report on the roots of radicalism supported what the Government were doing, but suggested that the matter needed to be looked at. It is six months since the publication of the report. Given that the Minister is now bringing another organisation before the House, will he tell us when we can expect a definitive answer from the Government on what form that mechanism will take?

[James Brokenshire]

I acknowledge the Select Committee’s interest. Indeed, I gave evidence to the Committee, and I remember the questions that the right hon. Gentleman asked me during the evidence sessions. The matter is being considered, in relation to the Select Committee’s report and in the context of the recommendation made by the independent reviewer. All I can say is that we will make a further announcement in due course. Unfortunately, I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman a more specific answer now, but I acknowledge the point that he is making, and we will respond to the points made by the Select Committee and by the independent reviewer shortly.

We recognise that proscription is a tough but necessary power. Its effect is that the proscribed organisation is outlawed and unable to operate in the United Kingdom. Proscription makes it a criminal offence for a person to belong to, or invite support for, the proscribed organisation. It is also a criminal offence to arrange a meeting in support of the organisation, or to wear clothing or carry articles in public that could arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual was a member or supporter of the relevant organisation.

Given the wide-ranging impact of proscription, the Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe an organisation only after thoroughly reviewing all the available relevant information and evidence on that organisation. Having carefully considered all the evidence, she firmly believes that IM is involved in terrorism. Hon. Members will appreciate that I am unable to go into much detail, but I am able to give them the following information. IM is a terrorist organisation based in India. It emerged in 2007. It uses violence in its attempts to achieve its stated objectives of creating an Islamic state in India and of implementing sharia law there.

The organisation has frequently perpetrated attacks on civilian targets, such as markets, with the intention of maximising casualties. In May 2008, for example, a spate of bomb detonations in the city of Jaipur killed 63, and in September last year an explosion outside the high court in Delhi reportedly killed 12 and injured 65. IM has sought to incite sectarian hatred in India by deliberately targeting Hindu places of worship. An example of that was an attack on a prayer ceremony in Varanasi, which killed a child, in December 2010.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I understand and wholeheartedly support the reason for proscribing the organisation here, but is it proscribed in India as well?

[James Brokenshire]

Yes, the organisation is proscribed in India and in several other countries, including the United States and New Zealand. The proscription here will align the UK with the emerging international consensus.

It is important, in the context of this order, to state that the group is also known to target areas popular with tourists. A shooting incident in Old Delhi wounded two Taiwanese tourists in September 2010, and there was an unsuccessful attempt to detonate an explosive device at the scene. The organisation has also publicly threatened to attack British tourists, so it clearly poses a threat to British nationals in India.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has mentioned the fact that the United States and other countries have also condemned these terrorist organisations. What international co-ordination is there to ensure that if such an organisation is proscribed in one country, it is proscribed in other countries that we see as our allies?

[James Brokenshire]

I understand my hon. Friend’s particular interest in this subject. Clearly, we need to be satisfied that a particular organisation meets the statutory requirements for proscription, which I outlined at the start of my contribution. We seek to draw on information wherever it is available so that we can determine that the relevant steps are met in respect of the statutory tests, thus giving the Home Secretary the discretion to exercise a determination to proscribe an organisation.

We believe there is ample evidence to suggest that IM is concerned in terrorism, and I believe it is right to add the organisation to the list of proscribed organisations under schedule 2 to the 2000 Act. I commend the order to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Brokenshire]

With the leave of the House, I shall be brief. Important points have been made, and I will reflect on de-proscription and the other things that have been raised this evening. I shall certainly write to the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who chairs the Select Committee, about relevant matters. I welcome support across the House for the measure. Unfortunately, there are a number of things on which I cannot comment because of intelligence and security matters, and I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will understand.

A number of issues were highlighted with regard to specific organisations. The Home Secretary has to be satisfied through the tests that I outlined that an organisation is connected with terrorism, so this is not a step that is taken lightly—it is a serious issue. I hope that the House understands that the Home Secretary has considered the issue carefully and that the IM has been engaged in indiscriminate mass-casualty attacks in India. I commend the order to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order, which was laid before this House on 2 July, be approved.

Late Night Drinking

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

My noble Friend Lord Henley, the Minister of State for Crime Prevention and Antisocial Behaviour Reduction, has today made the following written ministerial statement:

The response to the consultation on the secondary legislation for the late night levy and early morning alcohol restriction orders has been published today.

The late night levy and early morning alcohol restriction orders (EMROs) are two alcohol measures in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. The extension of EMROs will allow local councils to restrict the sale of alcohol in their local area flexibly between 12am and 6am. This is a tool that licensing authorities can use to prevent problems in the night-time economy in either a part or the whole of their area. The late night levy will fulfil our commitment to allow councils to levy a charge from those selling alcohol late at night in their area to help contribute towards high policing costs in the late-night economy. Again, it can be applied flexibly between 12am and 6am. These measures will empower local communities to act to achieve a more viable night-time economy and contribute to the Government’s alcohol strategy to turn the tide against irresponsible drinking.

The response to the “Dealing with the Problems of Late Night Drinking” consultation considers the various comments received from a wide range of respondents. Their views have contributed to the development of the regulations that detail how these policies will be implemented. The first of these regulations have been laid today.

Copies of the response to the consultation will be placed in the House Library and it is also available on the Home Office website at www.homeoffice.gov.uk

National Fraud Authority (Annual Report and Accounts)

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

The National Fraud Authority (NFA) annual report and accounts 2011-12 has been laid before the House today and copies will be available in the Vote Office. They will be published shortly on the NFA’s pages of the Home Office website.

Scrap Metal Theft

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) on securing the debate. I think that the number of hon. Members who have stayed at this hour to hear his comments and intervene to make their own contribution underlines yet again the significance that many of us attach to this important issue, one that I know we will return to in the fullness of time when we might be able to debate some of the very important issues he has rightly brought before the House this evening.

The real problem, of course, is that the metal that is stolen is not scrap at all, as he has rightly identified. The metal being stolen has a very real purpose: it powers our train lines, supplies electricity to our towns and cities and commemorates loved ones. In London, 16 brass plaques from different monuments and cemeteries, including in Carshalton and Croydon and in Sidcup in my own constituency, have been stolen over the past two years. Those plaques commemorate more than 15,000 war dead. We have also seen the shameful theft of the River of Life memorial plaque to Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry in Warrington and the destruction and theft of Barbara Hepworth’s bronze sculpture “Two Forms (Divided Circle)” from a south London park over new year. The sculpture was insured for over £500,000. Only last week it was reported that 50 metres of lead roofing had been stolen from a funeral directors in Glenrothes in Scotland. I know that hon. Members on both sides of the House have their own sad and appalling examples of such theft and the impact it has on their communities.

[Graham Jones]

When looking at the list of crimes, will the Minister take into consideration the several kilometres of overhead power cable stolen in east Lancashire by organised criminals in the past seven days? They are quite thick cables, as I am sure the Minister is aware, so cutting them down and transporting them requires a high degree of skill, professional expertise and equipment.

[James Brokenshire]

I certainly will, and I commend the hon. Gentleman for his continued interest in and focus on the issue. I well appreciate his attachment to this policy issue, which I am sure he will continue in the months ahead. He is right to highlight the fact that the damage, destruction and vandalism to our local communities, businesses and transport infrastructure are what cause us such concern and, in many cases, rightful outrage and anger when we are confronted by this particular crime. As the hon. Member for Nottingham North highlighted, these crimes can result in the needless deaths of the perpetrators—eight individuals were killed in 2011 while trying to steal metal.

I assure all hon. Members in the Chamber that the Government take our responsibility for tackling and reducing this crime very seriously. Therefore, I very much value the opportunity we have had tonight to put some of these points on the record. I found the hon. Gentleman’s contribution to the debate helpful and interesting, and I am convinced that this is an area where continued co-operation and collaboration by all agencies involved will certainly go some way towards tackling this criminality, as he rightly highlighted.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the legislative action that we have taken through the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which provided an early opportunity to take some initial legislative steps in support of the fight against metal theft, reflecting our belief that legislation, backed up with enforcement activity, is the only sustainable, long-term solution. Within the Act, we included measures to prohibit cash payments for scrap metal, to amend police powers of entry into unregistered scrap metal sites and to increase the financial penalties for offences under the current Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. The 2012 Act received Royal Assent last month, and we expect each measure to be enacted in the autumn.

The banning of cash payments is a UK first, although the legislation will apply only in England and Wales and the Government have not taken the measure lightly. We certainly recognise, however, that more needs to be done, and the hon. Gentleman highlighted the action that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) has very constructively taken forward. My hon. Friend is in discussions with hon. Members from all parts of the House to introduce a private Member’s Bill to revise the regulation of the scrap metal industry, and we recognise that the 1964 Act is outdated and in need of reform.

However, rather than being cast in the role of dark assassin, as I think the hon. Gentleman said, the Government intend to work closely with my hon. Friend and, we hope, to help to ensure through collaboration that his Bill delivers a stronger and more effective licensing regime for the scrap metal industry, thereby replacing the outdated 1964 Act.

Without wishing to pre-empt my hon. Friend’s Bill, I note that there is certainly a need to remove existing exemptions from which some itinerant collectors benefit, and to ensure that the Bill fully reflects the 21st century industry. I hope that it receives support from all parts of the House, but legislation needs to be supported by effective enforcement, and I am pleased to see the considerable efforts that the police service—in particular the British Transport police and their Deputy Chief Constable Paul Crowther, through his leadership on metal theft on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers—and other law enforcement agencies continue to make to tackle metal theft.

In November, the Government announced an additional £5 million of funding to establish the national metal theft taskforce. We wanted it to support and to enhance existing law enforcement activity throughout the United Kingdom, building upon the good work already being done by many, and, although the taskforce is referred to as one and is co-ordinated centrally by the British Transport police, it is actually made up of various regional hubs, involving officers and partners undertaking additional proactive reduction and enforcement activities—all aligned to overall strategic objectives.

The objectives of the taskforce include to reduce metal theft and to disrupt the active organised criminal networks. As the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) said in his intervention, organised groups are involved in metal theft, and we are also looking to expand intelligence on the stolen metal market, including by visiting every scrap metal dealer. The taskforce went operational in January and it has already achieved notable results, including the arrest of almost 400 individuals and the recovery of hundreds of thousands of pounds in cash and significant volumes of stolen metals.

[Graham Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Brokenshire]

I have just a few moments left. I will try to make a bit more progress, but if I can come back to the hon. Gentleman at the end, I will try to. I hope that he understands.

It is important to highlight that through the taskforce we have seen the development of Operation Tornado, a voluntary scheme supported by the British Metals Recycling Association, the trade association of the scrap metal industry. The operation encourages scrap metal dealers to require and record the identification of those who sell metal. It was launched in the north-east of England in January and is now being rolled out across England and Wales. I was pleased to hear that it has been rolled out in Nottingham, and I know that it is moving further across the country. Initial results have been exceptionally positive, with metal-related police-recorded crime reducing by half in the first three months of 2012 across the three north-eastern police force areas of Northumbria, Cleveland and Durham.

I am aware of the interest of the hon. Member for Nottingham North in the use of forensic property markers. The Home Office certainly welcomes their use and we consider that such products can be an important tool in the fight against crime. Although I am unable to endorse any particular commercial products, I am aware of the considerable progress that continues to be made in this area of innovation and would welcome their use when it is proportionate and reasonable. We have seen some notable successes when such products have been used, including their application on national infrastructure. Such products can equip police forces with information to identify the origins of particular metals, as well as providing essential evidence potentially to bring a conviction.

The hon. Gentleman also highlighted the role of the Environment Agency. Although Treasury rules mean that the Environment Agency cannot use income from the regulated sector to pay for its enforcement work against the unregulated sector, the agency does use DEFRA grant in aid for this purpose; it currently allocates a little over £17 million a year of its core budget to tackling waste crime, which includes identifying, investigating and taking action against illegal waste sites.

I also highlight the fact that the Environment Agency has been allocated additional funding over an 18-month period to create a taskforce that it hopes will bring about a lasting reduction in the number of illegal waste sites of all types. In the 12 months to the end of March 2012, using its resources the agency stopped 759 illegal waste sites from operating, 190 of which were scrap metal yards. The hon. Gentleman made an important point about co-ordination and how we can ensure that the enforcement agencies, the police, the local authorities and the Environment Agency work together effectively. I am sure that we will return to that issue in our consideration of the Bill be to presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South.

I hope my comments today go some way to answering the issues raised this evening and provide some reassurance that the Government are committed to preventing and tackling scrap metal theft. Time is short tonight, but I look forward to a longer and further debate to allow more contributions on this important issue. There is more to be done and I am certain that the Bill being introduced by my hon. Friend will go even further in tackling these damaging crimes.

Question put and agreed to.