Employment Law: Devolution to Scotland

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Westminster Hall

[Angela Crawley]

The hon. Lady makes a number of points. Given her ardent belief in the Union, she would argue that this is the best place in the world for the protection of workers’ rights, yet we on the SNP Benches have repeatedly—in every facet, in every forum, in every piece of legislation—attempted to encourage the Government to reform employment law and they have failed to do so.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend, like me, find it rather bizarre that the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) seems to have overlooked the fact that the predecessor of my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) was an employment Minister in a Lib Dem coalition? If there was such a need to reform employment law, why did the Lib Dems not do that?

[Angela Crawley]

Absolutely. There was ample opportunity when the Lib Dems were in the coalition to transform employment law, and that did not happen.

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[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for securing and opening the debate.

It is fitting that we should be having this debate today of all days, when the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) has just been appointed Prime Minister, not least because, if the rumours are to be believed, the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) will be her Chancellor. Even more worryingly, the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) is set to be Secretary of State for Business—if it was 1 April, most of us probably would not take that seriously.

Part of the reason I think it is appropriate to have this debate today is that our new Prime Minister and our new Chancellor authored a book in 2012 called “Britannia Unchained”. I do not know if the Minister has read the book; unfortunately I have read all of it, and it is pretty grim reading. It asserts that the UK has a

“bloated state, high taxes and excessive regulation”.

It then says:

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

That is the view of our current Prime Minister and our soon-to-be Chancellor, in writing about employment legislation and regulations. That highlights why it is so important that employment legislation is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The idea that we would have Conservatives continuing to be in control of employment legislation really is akin to leaving a lion in charge of an abattoir.

Let us look at the Conservative party’s record on employment legislation. Take, for example, the Trade Union Act 2016—the anti-trade union Act. The irony will not have been lost on most of us that that Act requires a certain threshold to be met in order for workers to withdraw their labour, yet the Prime Minister did not achieve that very threshold yesterday as she was elected leader of the Conservative party. There is a case here that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

My hon. Friends the Members for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) and for Lanark and Hamilton East have already touched on the fact that there has been no employment Bill. The reason that we were promised an employment Bill was that, after the Brexit referendum, we were told that Brexit was about improving workers’ rights and environmental standards. The only thing that has happened in connection to any of that is that we are now pumping raw sewage out to sea. That gives us a fairly clear indication of where the Government plan to go if they bring forward an employment Bill: it will not be to strengthen workers’ rights.

My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) has done a ton of campaigning on fire and rehire legislation; shamefully, the Government talked out the private Member’s Bill that was introduced. We have seen little action on P&O Ferries and the shocking treatment of its staff, including one of my own constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East has been doggedly pursuing the Government in her campaign for paid miscarriage leave, something that anybody with an ounce of compassion in their hearts—and the Conservative party like to talk about being compassionate conservatives—should support. That has not been legislated for. I would love to know the Government’s objection to paid miscarriage leave, which my hon. Friend has fought so valiantly to get on the statute book.

All of that stands in contrast to the efforts of the Scottish Government, even though they are very limited in what they can do in terms of employment. For example, the Scottish Government see trade unions very much as partners, not opponents. We see them as rightly there to stand up for workers’ rights. I myself am very proud to be a member of the Unite trade union. The Scottish Government have the view that trade unions should not be seen as the enemy, but the UK Government constantly see trade unions as some sort of opportunity to play political football. The right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) was revelling in every single moment of his dispute with the RMT just recently. He saw it as an opportunity to advance his career—by all accounts, that will probably not do him much good today.

The Scottish Government already have policies that give a clear indication of the direction of travel on supporting workers. We have a clear opposition to zero-hours contracts, which I would call exploitative zero-hours contracts. We have the Scottish Government’s business pledge, which has been refreshed. We have a commitment to the living wage—not the pretend living wage that the UK Government talk about, but the living wage that is actually in line with the Living Wage Foundation and the real cost of living. We fund the Scottish Trades Union Congress with Scottish Union Learning cash.

The devolution of employment law is supported by the Scottish Trades Union Congress. I will wait with great interest to hear from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) about why the Scottish Labour party opposes the Scottish Trades Union Congress in its call for the devolution of employment law. The Labour party, I understand, considers itself to be the party of devolution, so why on earth does it oppose both the people of Scotland and the Scottish Trades Union Congress on the devolution of employment law?

There is a lot more that I would like to see done if we could devolve employment law. It is quite clear that the UK Government will not bring forward an employment Bill that will adequately improve workers’ rights, but there are a couple of things that I would like us to look at. For example, we must have a very honest conversation, particularly in this place, about the use of unpaid internships. They are absolutely rife in this place: far too many people, presumably even some in my own party, exploit young people from working-class communities by asking them to come down here and do unpaid internships. All of us collectively have to grapple with that. I would like to see a complete ban on unpaid internships and unpaid trial shifts.

I would like us to look at things such as the four-day week. We have just gone through a global pandemic in which the whole nature and world of work have changed enormously. There are a number of things that we could do by learning from the pandemic, and a four-day week is just one. I also want us to deliver proper enforcement of national minimum wage legislation. We have had national minimum wage legislation in statute since 1997, but there have been some years since when the number of prosecutions has been in single figures—if there have been any at all.

There is so much more that we could do with the devolution of employment powers, but in rounding off my speech, I want to go back to the theme I started with, which is the book that our current Prime Minister’s entire political philosophy is based on: “Britannia Unchained”. The reality is that for so long as Scotland remains chained to this failing Union, and this disgusting Conservative Government, I am afraid that we will see more policies like this. By all means, we can call for the devolution of employment law, but we could do something much better: unchain ourselves from this place with the powers of independence.

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[Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for bringing the debate forward. When we think of the potential merits of devolving employment law to Scotland, the main one is that the Tories would be nowhere near it. That is the selling point for me and a lot of other people. As we leave the pandemic only to enter a cost of living crisis, it cannot be any clearer how little interest this Government have in the lives of ordinary people. The last 12 years of Tory Government have been nothing more than a project of erosion. Not only is poverty on the rise and has been for years, but in-work poverty is rising, too. People who are working all the hours that God sends still cannot afford to live. Wages have not risen. The UK has the lowest level of sick pay in the OECD, and yet we kid ourselves that we are this great nation—this great United Kingdom—and a beacon for the rest of the world. Well, the stats just do not add up.

If we compare Scotland in the UK to what is happening in similar sized independent nations, we see that it does not have to be like this. Just one example: out of all the workers in the Netherlands, only 6.4% of them are low-wage earners. Of all the workers in Iceland, 7.6% are low-wage earners. Finland has 8.6% low earners and Denmark has 8.7%. In the UK, nearly 20% of all workers are low-wage earners. The countries I just mentioned have fewer people at risk of poverty and in-work poverty. They have fewer employees working extra hours and very long hours. They have a lower gender pay gap. They have sickness benefits that actually cover their wage if they are sick—something unheard of here. They are integrating flexible working patterns and learning from the pandemic, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) said earlier. They are figuring out fairer working practices to move with the 21st century.

[David Linden]

I wonder if my hon. Friend could say whether those countries have “Wheel of Fortune”-style things in the morning where people have to phone in and try to win money for their energy bills? In those countries, do they have former Conservative Cabinet Ministers picking the tinfoil off their head and telling them to put it down the back of their radiators to heat their houses?

[Mhairi Black]

Fortunately, they are spared that horror but, here in the UK, that is where we are at: “This Morning” paying bills. Instead of learning from everything that has happened in the pandemic, and trying to integrate fairer work practices, we have a Government running around leaving passive-aggressive notes on desks, telling people to hurry up and get back, when the Prime Minister—sorry, the last Prime Minister—was nowhere to be seen for weeks. They have shown time and again that they cannot be trusted with workers’ rights. All the way from 1830 right through to now, they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) mentioned, we had the Taylor review of modern working practices. That was five years ago, and we have heard nothing, because this Government are all about show not substance. The UK has reneged on its promise to protect EU-derived workers’ protections. During the Tory leadership race, the now Prime Minister promised to scrap all remaining EU regulations by the end of 2023. That means that hundreds of laws covering employment and environmental protections will disappear.

Despite the Government’s commitment to an employment Bill on at least 20 occasions, as we have heard from numerous people, it is still nowhere to be seen. I am not talking about little add-ons because we are nice to our workers. I am talking about fundamental rights: how long we need to work, holiday entitlement and sick pay. Those are all fundamental. The UK is being mismanaged into the ground, and has been for a long time.

We heard earlier from the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who is no longer in her place. She asked whether these arguments meant that changes to rights should apply across the whole of the UK. That is rubbish, because Northern Ireland has devolution of employment law, so why can Scotland not have that? Secondly, there is the idea that we have to wait for reform across the whole of UK. We have been trying. In just the seven years that I have been in this place, my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), who was here earlier, had the fire and rehire Bill talked out by the Government. Colleagues have tried to get rid of unpaid work trials, yet nothing has come from that.

It goes even bigger than that. Scotland has always played its part. We have not voted Tory since 1955. Yet all we get is Tory Prime Minister after Tory Prime Minister making empty promises, delivering nothing. Scotland has played its part and, frankly, I am tired of trying to tell people in Scotland who are being pushed into poverty, “Sorry, you just need to wait for the rest of the UK to get its act together.” No, not any more. If there is one thing we can see, it is that countries of a similar size to Scotland are successful and fairer. The only difference is that they are not governed by Westminster.

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[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

It is great to have you in the Chair for this debate, Sir Edward. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for securing the debate. At the start of her contribution, she said she wanted the devolution of employment law, to get it away from the Tories. That has been the thrust of the debate.

If we look at the context of where we are since 2010—a long 12 years ago—we can see that in-work poverty, low pay and financial insecurity are up for workers across the country. Incomes have stagnated for over a decade and real-terms pay today is equal to, if not lower than, 2008 levels. Wages have suffered a decade of stagnation, and will continue to do so. It is the worst it has been in over a century. The latest figures show that the level of taxation for working people in this country is at its highest in 70 years, which will result in the largest fall in living standards since records began in the 1950s—who knows when that goes back to? The Living Wage Foundation, one of the great organisations of this country, estimates that over 1 key million workers are in insecure work, lacking basic rights and protections, and that across the whole of the economy, one in nine workers is in insecure work and lacking basic rights.

This is a great debate in which to pay tribute to our trade union colleagues, particularly the Trades Union Congress general secretary Frances O’Grady, for driving a lot of the issues forward. One thing the Government tend to forget is that the most successful companies in this country are those that have good relations with the trade unions and with their employees, where Government, the trade unions, employees and employers work together as partners to create an environment that provides high-quality jobs and pay. It can be done; I say it can be done because the Labour Government that came in in 1997 transformed workers’ rights in this country. I was not in this place at the time, but many of my colleagues who were tell stories of sitting through the night, overnight—maybe you did this yourself, Sir Edward—two, three or four nights in a row, trying to get national minimum wage legislation on to the statute book. That legislation took security guards in this country, who were on the equivalent of 30p an hour, up to a national minimum wage. Of course, now, the difficulty with the national minimum wage is that for too many, it has become a national maximum wage. That is why we need to move on to something much more progressive, and we have committed to do so in the next Labour Government.

All that, alongside the cost of living squeeze—the cost of living crisis—means that things are only getting worse for working people and for the vast majority of the population. Inequality is rising, not just for the individual but across the nations and regions of the UK. When the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), spoke in Downing Street this morning, he did not even mention levelling up; maybe that was because it was always a slogan, and levelling up does not actually exist. The new Prime Minister, as we have heard already in many of today’s contributions, has promised to outlaw the ability to strike and to break strikes by bringing in agency workers. She has called workers lazy and said that they need to graft more. A new Prime Minister is supposed to come in with a fresh broom to resolve some of the problems in our economy, but it looks like she will make them considerably worse for working people everywhere in the UK, wherever they live.

Some of today’s contributions have been absolutely correct about the consequences of those problems for working people. Everybody in the Government—including, I am sure, the Minister—said with consternation that the P&O fire and rehire was a total disgrace. They were calling in chief executives; they were in the House of Commons at the Dispatch Box. The Secretary of State for Transport derided P&O for what it was doing, yet nothing has happened on the back of that. It is correct that the private Member’s Bill on banning fire and rehire was talked out by this Government. Any reasonable Government would have done what always happens with private Members’ Bills: talk it out because they do not want it to be anyone else’s idea, and then take it on themselves and bring forward something that they could live with. However, there has been nothing on fire and rehire.

As we come out of the covid pandemic, if we set aside all the big issues around the cost of living and insecure work and look at employees and workers themselves, we see something really stark in our economy. I will not give away any confidences, but I know a lot of the British Airways staff quite well because we Members from Scotland travel up and down to London regularly. BA treated its staff abysmally—not just over covid, but for the decade before, whether it be on pension rights, pay and conditions, moving their centres of employment from Edinburgh and Glasgow to London, or consolidating all that by banning them from flying home on commercial flights.

When covid came and BA got rid of a lot of those staff, they went and got other jobs. Some have been re-employed in the industry, and when I speak to them, they tell me that they are now having a much better time working for a different employer. When covid finished and BA was desperate for staff, it went back to ask those people if they would like to be re-employed, and every single one of them said no, as we would expect. Those loyal BA staff had made that company the great British product that it is—employees always drive great products, services and businesses—but they were treated so abysmally that when the company came calling and said, “The proverbial has hit the fan. Will you come and help us?”, they said that they would not. That is partly why our airline industry is in such a bad state at the moment.

British Gas did the same with fire and rehire, so there is a litany of issues for the Government to consider.

[David Linden]

It is absolutely right that we give BA and British Gas an absolute bashing, but one organisation that started using fire and rehire quite early on was Asda, a number of years ago. In considering that litany of employers who have indulged in fire and rehire, it would be remiss of us not to call Asda out on that shameful practice, too.

[Ian Murray]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned Asda. We could probably spend the rest of the debate coming up with other companies that have done it. There is an argument to be had about whether we should criticise the companies directly, but they are operating within the legislation. If we do not want employers to use fire and rehire—they are looking after a different set of circumstances—we need to change the legislation to stop them doing so. That is why fire and rehire should have been banned.

This a similar debate to one we had maybe five or 10 years ago about zero-hours contracts. I remember when I was in the shadow team for Business, Innovation and Skills back in 2012, we commissioned Norman Pickavance, who had been the HR director at Morrisons—the supermarkets—to write a report on zero-hours contracts. His report said quite clearly that there were ways to ban zero-hours contracts in their entirety without affecting all the issues that the Government hid behind as excuses for not doing so. Ten years later, zero-hours contracts, the gig economy and forced self-employment are rampant, and there is no employment Bill to deal with them.

Will the Minister address the Government’s objection to the Taylor review? What is their objection? Why is there no Bill to enact its recommendations, and why is the new Prime Minister not introducing one? During a cost of living crisis, workers should not be sacked; they should be made more secure, because people should have confidence that a wage will come in so that they can at least partially pay their energy bills and other bills. We will see what happens on Thursday with the cost of living crisis and energy bills, but I suspect that the responsibility for paying energy bill debt will be passed from the Government to the consumer, which is certainly not something that we support.

I agree with the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), who said that there are inconsistencies in devolution. Nobody ever said that devolution was perfect; it was never going to be perfect. Asymmetric devolution is, by its very nature, imperfect, but we have to find mechanisms to run through some of those issues. Devolution has always been a journey, as the hon. Gentleman himself admitted in mentioning Calman, Smith and others, and it will continue to be a journey, particularly for those who are committed to devolution—I am not sure that many in this Chamber are committed to it, with the exception perhaps of myself.

[David Linden]

And your colleague.

[Ian Murray]

Maybe. Well, I am not so sure if the Minister is—maybe she will tell us.

I do not want to get into the issue of bin strikes and so on—the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) mentioned the strikes—but they go to the heart of something that is infecting our politics at the moment. Our refuse collectors worked all through covid and did a marvellous job, but decided—quite rightly—to strike on the basis that they had been offered a 2% pay rise. People need fair pay rises, particularly the lowest paid. In all our councils across Scotland—it might be the same across England—we have probably the lowest-paid public sector workers out there. They are striking on the basis of pay rates.

We then had an unholy argument in Scotland about who was responsible for the strikes. Then, a few weeks later—one might reflect on adding one and one and getting maybe four, five or two—the First Minister put a funded deal on the table and the strikes were lifted. How can that not be the responsibility of the Scottish Government rather than of the Labour party in Edinburgh? That is beyond my comprehension. That is the kind of debate that we have had, rather than a sensible debate about whether employment law should be devolved to Scotland.

I know that the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) has been back a while, but I have not had the opportunity to welcome her back. I wish her well in her continued recovery. Her speech showed that less is more, because she hit the nail on the head with regard to what we should be doing in employment law and getting it away from the Tories. My contention is that the best way to get it away from the Tories is to vote for a UK Labour Government, because it would be better to have a Labour Minister sitting on that side of the Chamber and putting forward Labour policies for workers’ rights.

Can I directly address the hon. Member for Glasgow East? I may misquote him here, but he said that the Scottish Labour party will have to explain why they oppose the devolution of employment law. We do not. The Scottish Labour party’s policy is to devolve employment law. I am not sure if the hon. Member for East Lothian was on the Smith Commission or whether it was his former colleague John Swinney, however, the reason employment law was not devolved was because the UK trade unions did not want that. They were concerned about devolving it without thinking through—

[David Linden]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Ian Murray]

If the hon. Member will let me finish the point. This is the fact of the Smith Commission. They did not think through the consequences of cross-border employment and cross-border companies and whether it would make at that particular time a much more difficult framework to operate on.

[David Linden]

Can I confirm on the record that the manifesto from the British Labour party for the next general election will have a clear, cast-iron commitment to devolve employment law to the Scottish Parliament?

[Ian Murray]

It will have a clear commitment to implement what we are currently doing in terms of the Labour party’s commission. I am not going to discuss what is in the commission in a Westminster Hall debate because it is being finalised and will be launched in the early part of November. However, the hon. Gentleman will not be disappointed with some of the outcomes of that detailed work.

The commission is not about Scotland as such; it is about all the nations and regions that come under the umbrella of the UK. I know the hon. Gentleman does not believe in the UK, but we do and some of that is in there on devolution. That is the reason the Scottish Labour party, of which I am a member, is entitled to have a different set of policy perspectives from the UK party on a whole host of issues. Gordon Brown’s commission, which will be launched in November, will do some of that.

[Ian Murray]

I cannot recall who was and who was not, but the conversations that went on through the conduit of the TUC, which was responsible for taking those conversations forward, had come to the conclusion by speaking to their members that the UK trade unions would not want to devolve. Those positions may have moved since; in fact, I think the GMB’s position has moved since, which is hardly unsurprising given the state we have.

I am sorry the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) is not here after that rather difficult and strange intervention. In the time that I was the shadow Minister responsible for employment law, I sat across from the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Jo Swinson, who was a predecessor, successor and then predecessor again to the Scottish National party in East Dunbartonshire. She was the Minister at the time and took that Bill through the House of Commons, which not only did a whole host of anti-trade union things but extended the qualifying period for employment rights from one to two years. The Liberal Democrats are not sitting on the fence; they are quite clearly on the other side and trying desperately to climb back across the right side. I am disappointed that the hon. Lady came out with that because it undermines her arguments about what she needs to do.

I conclude with a canter through the question of what the Labour party would do. Our deputy leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), launched our fair work policies at conference last year for a new deal for working people. Launching that, she said it was an attempt to make Britain the best place in the world to work. I think it is an attempt to do that. We did not develop those policies in a vacuum of ideology, which is essentially what the previous Government have operated on—I hope the new Government will be slightly better—but by working with our trade union colleagues and employers, and working together to come up with something that can be implemented for the benefit of the economy and workers.

We would strengthen workers’ rights from day one. We would take away that two-year qualifying period and take it down to day one. That is the right thing to do and it gives people security. It cannot be right to be able to sack someone without a reason at one year and 364 days. In fact, the argument I have always made on that is that if we wait until one year and 364 days to find out if someone is good enough, the manager should be sacked for not doing their job properly. They could find out much earlier in the process if someone is good enough for the job they have been employed to do.

We would ban fire and rehire; that is a fairly straightforward thing to do, which would protect workers in this country and create good businesses. I went on holiday by ferry this year, but I just could not travel on P&O; I used another ferry company. When I saw that big P&O sign as I approached Dover, I just felt disgusted that a firm would do what P&O did to its employees at a time when they require their jobs and their wages more than at any time in the past.

Banning fire and rehire would also make work more family-friendly by helping to balance home, community and family life. We have done that before, through the maternity and paternity pay brought in during the last Labour Government. We would extend statutory maternity and paternity pay now that we are out of the European Union. Shared parental leave is a big issue. In fact, I agree with the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) regarding the uptake of shared parental leave, but I do not think it is a legal thing. I think it is a cultural thing and also about equal pay, because all the analysis shows that there is such a low uptake of shared parental leave because it is still the father who is the main or highest earner in a family, and sharing parental leave may be a cultural thing in terms of employers and employees asking for it. Those are some of the cultural barriers that we have to break down.

We would ban zero-hours contracts. All workers have the right to regular contracts and predictable hours, reasonable notice of changes in shifts, and wages paid in full for cancelled shifts. We would strengthen trade union rights, raising pay and conditions, and—crucially—we would use fair pay agreements to drive up the pay and conditions of all workers.

I did not want to be political in this debate, but some of my colleagues from the Scottish National party could not resist being political earlier, so I cannot resist now. One of the key things that a Government can use to drive up standards is procurement, and one of the biggest levers that the Scottish Government could pull, given the powers of the Scottish Parliament, is procurement, using it to drive up standards.

However, we have just seen £700 million of licences for ScotWind being issued to companies with no procurement specifications on wages, local employment, apprenticeships and all those kinds of workers’ rights. So, yes, devolving these matters might be the right thing to do, but my challenge to the SNP is not about the principle of devolution but to tell us what it would with it.

[David Linden]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman missed the point made in a number of our speeches when we talked precisely about the Scottish Government’s business pledge, which has baked within it various levers regarding how we use procurement. Which parts of the Scottish business pledge does he object to that the Scottish Government have already got in place?

[Ian Murray]

The main thing that I object to about the Scottish Government’s pledges and strategies and documents is that they tend to be launched with huge fanfare, including big front pages in the newspapers and pictures of the First Minister plastered all over the television, and then those pledges and documents go on to some shelf somewhere and sit there until they are relaunched again, about one or two years later. The proof is always in the pudding, but I am not sure that the Scottish Government even attempt to make the pudding; they just bring the recipe out now and again. That is my biggest criticism, because it happens on climate, on procurement and in other areas. If the hon. Gentleman wants me to answer the question directly, that is my objection.

There is no objection from Labour to the principle of the devolution of employment law. However, there are lots of issues to work through regarding what it would be like in practice. I want to hear what the Minister has to say about the employment practices of this country, her objection to the Taylor review and bringing its recommendations forward in a piece of legislation, and what the Government—the new Government—will do. Who knows? The Minister might be in the new Government. I see she has her phone on the table; perhaps it will ring shortly and she will have to excuse herself to run away and take a call.

Whatever the Minister’s answer to such a call is, the Government really have to look at what is happening now in the country—with the low growth, high inflation, high tax and stagnation that we have—and find a way to break out of that real problem in the economy. The best way to do that is to have a highly skilled, highly productive, highly stable workforce with career progression. Otherwise, we will end up in 20 years’ time still having the same arguments about why we have a problem in this country with productivity and why we also have a problem in this country with low pay and insecure work.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Jane Hunt)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) on securing this important debate on the potential merits of devolving employment law to Scotland. As Members can well imagine, there is an awful lot for me to respond to, so I probably will not take interventions at this stage, because I do not think there will be time for me to do so.

As the hon. Member is aware, employment matters are reserved to the UK Parliament under the Scotland Act 1998, with a few exceptions, such as the subject matter of the Agricultural Wages (Scotland) Act 1949. The Government have no intention of devolving legislative competence for employment rights matters to the Scottish Government.

The Scotland Acts of 1998, 2012 and 2016 have created one of the most powerful devolved Governments in the world. The Scottish devolution settlement gives the Scottish Parliament power over numerous aspects of its governance and strikes a good balance. The current settlement was agreed between the Scottish Government and the UK Government after extensive cross-party consultation and discussion by the Smith Commission.

We strongly believe that in order for the labour market to work most effectively across Great Britain, the underlying legislative framework concerning rights and responsibilities in the workplace needs to be consistent and must not be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Employers and employees benefit hugely from a single, simple system where employment rights are the same across Great Britain, whether someone is working in Dunstable or Dundee. Devolving employment rights to Scotland could create a two-tier employment rights framework, with Scotland adopting different policy and legislation to England and Wales. This would create a significant burden for businesses. It would be costly for employers who operate on both sides of the border, as they would need to understand the differences between the systems and potentially implement different sets of policies and procedures.

[David Linden]

In the 25 minutes left, will the Minister give way?

[Jane Hunt]

I have an awful lot to get through, but I will allow one intervention.

[David Linden]

The Minister makes a point about companies operating over borders and having different employment practices to adhere to. She is, of course, fully aware that employment law is devolved in Northern Ireland. She mentions Dunstable and Dundee. Notwith-standing the lovely big sea border that her Government have just put down in the Irish sea, which I know some in her party are vexed about, why is it good enough for people in Larne but not people in Livingston?

Energy Update

David Linden Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and for his concern for his constituency-based business. As I said in answer to the previous question from the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), we are all keenly aware of the difficulties that many businesses are in. On the other engagement that we have had with the sector, the Secretary of State has been meeting energy suppliers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has heard loud and clear from the Confederation of British Industry, the Federation of Small Businesses, Make UK and others. The Government are of course keenly aware of the situation, and I do not think the hon. Gentleman will have long to wait to hear the response.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

About three hours ago I spoke to Deborah Linton, who is the operations director of Dentec Hillington, which is a body repair shop just off London Road in my constituency. Its energy bills alone will rise by £54,000 this year, and the message that she wanted me to bring to the Minister is that businesses need action and need it now. I have a simple question for the Minister: will the Government have announced action when I visit the company on Friday?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Gentleman is inviting me to speculate on the date of future Government announcements, which I am not able to do, but I will say that I do not think he will have long to wait.

Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Bill

David Linden Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 15th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald). When I told him that he had come top of the private Member’s Bills ballot, he thought that I was just someone who was interested, notwithstanding what happened earlier. It was actually because I was so keen to see this Bill come forward. This is a Bill that I sought to introduce in 2018 via the ten-minute rule. It is a testament to how generous and warm my hon. Friend is that he has been presented with this opportunity by winning the parliamentary lottery. Many of us would like to see the private Member’s Bill process reformed, but I am incredibly grateful to him and will be forever in his debt that he has taken the Bill on.

Like my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully). He and I have been discussing and meeting about this issue. I have questioned him on the Floor of the House for a very long time about it. It became clear that, in the absence of an employment Bill, the most sensible way of dealing with it, particularly given the cross-party support we have, was to decouple it and take this as a stand-alone Bill. I am glad we are going down that route.

I would like to pay tribute to and recognise a few other people, particularly Catriona Ogilvy from The Smallest Things, and Josie Anderson and Beth McCleverty from Bliss. I have been working with them for years on this, and the fact that we are finally seeing the Bill go through the House is a point of enormous pride. It is the culmination of many years of work by not just MPs, which I will come to in a moment, but, most importantly, parents whose children are born premature or sick.

This is actually politics at its best. It is no secret that I am not a fan of this place, and I do everything every single day to try to get out of here, but if the House will indulge me for one moment, this is probably one of the best moments we have had here, because we are seeing politicians coming together, putting party politics aside and using their personal experience.

One of the reasons the all-party parliamentary group on premature and sick babies works so well is that the officers of that group all have one thing in common. It is not the fact that they are Members of Parliament; it is that they are the parents of premature and sick-born babies. I want to thank the hon. Members for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) and for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), and the hon. Members for Broxtowe (Darren Henry) and for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones), who have come together to put party politics and indeed constitutional politics aside to ensure that we do deliver for those families.

This Bill is not particularly controversial. It is a relatively short Bill and the budget line only commits to about £15 million, as the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate said, in the 2023 Budget, but it will have a massive impact on the families of those 90,000 to 100,000 babies who every year are born in the UK and spend time in neonatal care.

As the House will recall, both of my children—Isaac and Jessica—were born premature. In Isaac’s case, we only had about 14 weeks from finding out that he was going to arrive to his coming into the world. I still remember that moment when it moved to an emergency caesarean and being whipped away to a neonatal intensive care unit, and the real worry going through that time. In both cases—for both my children—my parental leave was well up by the time we got out of hospital. In the case of my daughter Jessica, who is now three years old, she spent roughly the first year of her life on oxygen and many weeks and months in the neonatal intensive care unit.

The hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate hit the nail on the head when he talked about the mental health impact that this has on parents. I still remember vividly, and will until my dying day, watching my daughter turn blue in the incubator, with noises, alarms and lights all going off and neonatal nurses rushing in to resuscitate her. The idea that we as legislators would expect our constituents to be at work when that is happening or, worse still, to do a shift after that is something we are putting right today, because that is a historical wrong.

There is also the point that employers will not get the best out of their employees when they are sitting at work and staring into space, worrying whether or not their child is going to make it through the day. They are also not going to be in a good space when they realise that mum is back in the neonatal intensive care ward and doctors are coming round to talk about the massive consequential decisions that families have to take, while the dad, or another parent perhaps, is sitting in front of a computer in the office. That is why this is so important.

There are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East has said, good employers out there already: Sony Music, Waltham Forest Council, South Ayrshire Council all have innovative policies in place. Interestingly, we have a big debate in this House about proxy voting. As far as I understand it, proxy voting still does not have provision for neonatal care leave. Although there will be a period before we can get Royal Assent, this House could get its own house in order by ensuring that we have some form of neonatal leave immediately with proxy voting.

[Hannah Bardell]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent work he has done over many years on this issue. My own chief of staff, Stephanie, had her twin girls—Abi and Jessica—during the deepest, darkest lockdown of the winter of 2020. She had the pressure of having two premature babies, being quite ill and having to go in and out of the neonatal unit. So much of what he says rings true, and I hope I did what I could as an employer, but I felt that my hands were tied by the rules of this place. I remember trying to give her all the support I could, but her partner worked offshore and had to go back offshore; he could not even be in the same place as her after that. Does my hon. Friend agree that everything he says and everything this Bill brings forward will be so important to our constituents, our staff and staff the length and breadth of the country? It should not be left up to individual businesses to make policies; this needs to be in legislation.

[David Linden]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. As well as reforming some of the issues around proxy voting in this place, which I accept impacts only a small amount of us, the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which is responsible for setting many of the policies and conditions on how Members of the House employ staff, could do a lot more not just on guidance but to reform the rules.

There are a number of good employers out there—I have mentioned them already—but one thing we saw as a result of the P&O scandal is that, sadly, far too many employers are too tempted to gild the lily, cut corners and undercut their staff. I am conscious that there is cross-party consensus this morning, but I will not depart from the belief that the sooner we have an employment Bill before the House, the better so we could try to deal with some of the other issues, such as the excellent proposition on miscarriage leave made by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley). It is important that the Minister considers how we could bring forward an employment Bill. However, ultimately, this Bill will end the lottery that far too many employees across these islands have to deal with. I agree with the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate about the need to expedite the Bill. I still have a concern that, although the Bill will be read a Second time today, we should get it into Committee as soon as possible, and to the Lords. My preference would be to do all stages on the Floor of the House. There is precedent for that. Given the immense cross-party agreement on this, we could get the Bill through in a couple of hours.

I put a direct challenge to whoever the two final candidates are for Prime Minister. I understand that whoever becomes Prime Minister will be enormously tempted to call a snap election. The danger with doing that is that the House would prorogue and the Bill would not receive Royal Assent. I would like a commitment from both candidates that they will not play fast and loose with that.

There are many more things that we can do to try to support families who have had premature or sick babies. We need to look at the neonatal workforce. That is a ticking time bomb that will go off in about 10 years’ time. We need to look at the school admissions code, certainly in England, and look across the UK at the poor hospital accommodation for parents. Far too many parents have to stay in hotels well off site. That is particularly challenging for mothers who are breastfeeding and there are all sorts of other issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East referred to the neonatal expenses fund that we have in Scotland. We are incredibly lucky to have that, but it is not available to our friends in other parts of these islands.

Finally, we will have to look at the postcode lottery and the desert of counselling that exists across health boards and NHS trusts. It has been well rehearsed this morning that having a baby who is born premature or sick can have a serious detrimental impact on the mental health of parents and frankly it is just luck whether they get that support at that time. I very much look forward to the Bill going to Committee, ensuring that it passes through the House speedily and can receive Royal Assent. I commend it to the House.

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[Jane Hunt]

Absolutely, and he is now a Minister of State at the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. I think hon. Members will agree that he is a committed and compassionate Minister, and I am pleased to be following him and moving this agenda forward—I will have to work very hard indeed to do so. I also thank the all-party parliamentary group on premature and sick babies, and in particular its chair, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden).

Neonatal care leave and pay will enable thousands of parents to care for and be with their children in neonatal care without worrying about whether their job is at risk. I am pleased to see that the Bill has support across the House, as has been reflected in the debate—I thank everybody very much. I will take time to address some of the points raised by hon. Members, but first let me put on the record why the Government support the Bill.

As the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East explained, every year in the UK, an estimated 100,000 babies are admitted to neonatal care following their birth, for a range of medical reasons. The United Kingdom has a range of generous entitlements and protections designed to support parents to balance their family and work commitments and maintain their place in the labour market while raising their children. However, for parents in the worrying position of having their newborn admitted to neonatal care, it is clear that the current leave and pay entitlements do not provide adequate support.

In an Adjournment debate on 9 February, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) said:

“The current system is also a massive barrier for fathers and non-childbearing parents in particular. Earlier this week, 75% of parents who responded to a survey from Bliss, the incredible charity, said that they or their partner went back to work before their baby was home from hospital. Some of those children will still have been on ventilation and receiving critical care. Previous research suggests that the most common reason for that is they simply cannot afford to take more time off work. That is happening every single day, right around the country, to families of premature and sick children.”—[Official Report, 9 February 2022; Vol. 708, c. 1054.]

That is why we are here today and have been able to come to an agreement. The Government have previously consulted on the issue. In March 2020, we committed to introducing a new entitlement to neonatal leave and pay. We are pleased to support the Bill, which will bring that policy into effect.

I will address some of the specific points that hon. Members have made. First, I thank the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East for bringing forward the Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate for bringing his personal experience so emotionally and compassionately to the Chamber. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Jill Mortimer) talked particularly about fathers. I absolutely support what she said about giving extra time to both parents to be there for their child. I will refer to some of the points raised by the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans) later.

The hon. Member for Glasgow East also talked movingly about his personal experience. The hon. Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) mentioned a specific case. My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Dean Russell) volunteered in his own Watford hospital—a legacy for all here today, hopefully, we will provide. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) referred to his personal experience and his children, who are clearly taking after their father. On his behalf, I also thank Thomas and Steve, the employers who helped him and his wife and did all they could to support them as members of staff.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Felicity Buchan) said that the Bill is the right thing to do and talked about bonding time; we must agree that that is a vital relationship for parents at that time. She also said that good employers are already doing the right thing and helping with newborn children. This Bill is a floor, not a ceiling. I want to ensure that everybody gets a good level of care, and other businesses may be able to put something on top of that, as she said.

I will refer to the point made by the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) later. Madam Deputy Speaker, who is no longer in her place, talked about what happened to her and the stressful time that she had in more ways than one. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) pointed out that the child is often not the only child in the family, which must be considered. There were also many helpful and supportive interventions from hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate raised concerns about the length of time that it would take for the Bill to be implemented. There is clearly cross-party support for the Bill and we hope that it will complete its parliamentary passage and receive Royal Assent as swiftly as possible. Setting up a new leave and pay entitlement takes time. It requires secondary legislation and changes to Government systems that administer statutory payments, and businesses need good notice in order to prepare. HMRC and commercial payroll providers require at least 18 months’ lead time to implement such changes following Royal Assent. I spoke with my officials this week, however, and we are looking at what we can do to speed that up. I note that the hon. Member for Glasgow East, my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), the hon. Member for Newport West all requested that.

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the Minister for her discussions with officials in her Department, but will she undertake to have a conversation with the Leader of the House and business managers to see whether it might be possible to expedite the Bill as we try to get it through the House?

[Jane Hunt]

That is a good idea, and I will take that up.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate also raised concerns about why seven full days of neonatal are required before the entitlement is triggered. In response, I flag that the policy is primarily intended to support parents of babies facing longer stays in hospital and that the needs of parents in that position must be balanced against those of their employer. When developing the approach, the responses from parents, parent representative groups and business representatives to the 2019 consultation on neonatal leave and pay were considered.

Fire and Rehire Tactics

David Linden Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

Thank you very much indeed, Ms McVey; it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on securing the debate and on opening it so well.

I have had quite a lot to do with the Minister recently. Although I have specific views on the lack of an employment Bill, I pay tribute to him for the constructive way in which he is working with me and my colleagues to ensure that we get neonatal leave and pay in statute—we have been pushing on that matter for a while. I thank my own trade union, Unite, for its helpful briefing in advance of the debate, and I will come back to a number of points on that.

I will not press this point too much given that you are in the Chair, Ms McVey—I know that you are quite an influential member of the Blue Collar Conservatives—but as the hon. Member for Slough was speaking, I was reflecting on the fact that workers’ rights are something that Blue Collar Conservatives should think about. There is no doubt that the British political landscape has changed significantly on workers’ rights. People on this side of the Chamber, and indeed people in Scotland, may not be happy about it, but there is no doubt that the Conservative-voting demographic has changed significantly, and it would be rather foolhardy of Conservative Members—particularly those who represent red wall seats—to overlook blue collar workers who have sadly been subjected to fire and rehire practices. I would not be so bold as to indicate, for the purposes of Hansard, whether the Chair is nodding.

It was interesting that during the Brexit referendum, people were regularly told that Brexit was about taking back control. I happen to believe that Brexit was a bad idea—I still believe that it was largely about deregulation and a bonfire of workers’ rights—but I reserved a degree of judgment post-2016, and the jury is still out on whether the Government take workers’ rights seriously.

As the hon. Gentleman said, the Government have promised time and again that an employment Bill would be introduced. It is quite telling that there is still no employment Bill three years into this Parliament, particularly when the world of work is changing. Ministers have to confront the reality: actions speak louder than words, so if Brexit was about taking back control and improving workers’ rights, an employment Bill should be forthcoming.

In some respects, I actually feel quite sorry for British Airways. It quite rightly got a lot of flak for its deployment of fire and rehire tactics, but it was not the first company to use them. Asda was doing it long ago, and as we have seen with the likes of P&O, people—bosses, frankly—are pursuing something that is completely immoral but not currently illegal. Without an employment Bill that properly enshrines workers’ rights post-Brexit, the likes of P&O, British Airways, Asda and so many other organisations will go down that path.

One reason why I am concerned that an employment Bill has not been introduced is because it is no secret that the current Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) authored—with the right hon. Members for Witham (Priti Patel) and for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) and others—a book called “Britannia Unchained”. In essence, the book is about changing ways of work. Bear in mind that the authors are serving Ministers, one of whom heads up the Department that is responsible for workers’ right. I would not normally promote this book, but let me share a key quote from it:

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

I hope the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has changed his mind since he and his colleagues authored that book. The fact that in 2022, companies such as P&O, British Airways, Asda and many others can still get away with practices such as fire and rehire, suggests that the Government’s doctrine has not changed from “Britannia Unchained”. Many of us, particularly in a Scottish context, think that leaving Conservatives in charge of workers’ rights is akin to leaving a lion in charge of an abattoir.

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[Jim Shannon]

I thank my colleague the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I agree with that, sincerely in my heart. As I said earlier, the Government have said that fire and rehire should not be used as a negotiation technique, but that it should also not be make illegal. Well, that is a legislative change that the hon. Member for Bury South wants to see, as well as everyone who has spoken and everyone who will speak afterwards. I want to see that legislative change in place as soon possible.

It is essential that an environment is created whereby people enjoy their work. I am very privileged to do a job that I always wished to do, but never for one second did I think that I, a wee boy from Ballywalter, would actually be here, so I am fortunate. People need to enjoy their work if they are to work hard and make a contribution to how their firm progresses. If staff are unsettled and unhappy in their work, for whatever reason, there is an onus on the employer to work harder to make them happy.

Moreover, employers rely on workers to fulfil goals and create successes, hence the need to prioritise their needs and not be dictated to. If someone wants their firm to be successful and do well, they need a happy workforce, and vice versa. I have six girls who work with me in my two offices, and I can say in all honestly that they seem fairly happy, so maybe this employer is treating them the right way. I understand how important it is to motivate staff and keep them happy.

[David Linden]

Although there are things that the hon. Gentleman and I disagree on politically, I had the great pleasure of visiting him in his constituency and meeting the staff in his constituency office. Would he reflect—as I hope will the Minister—that many of the staff who work for us would be appalled and would not stand for it if we turned around to them and said, “Do you know what? We are going to fire you from your job, but then you can come back and work for less pay, less holiday time and more uncertain hours”? Does he think that parliamentary staff, including the staff of the Minister and the Secretary of State, would sign up for that?

[Jim Shannon]

The answer, as we all know, is that they would not. This House protects the workers here by setting bands of pay, giving them the right conditions for their holidays and if they are sick. It does it here, so I think it should do the same for other workers, which is what I would like to see.

Employers must follow a set minimum dismissal procedure and a collective redundancy process is involved. The depth of this issue has to be met with scrutiny and we must hold business owners to the highest level of account to ensure that our workers are protected.

There definitely needs to be greater communication within Government. I say that with great respect, because the Minister knows that I hold him in the highest respect because of the way he does his job. When we ask him questions, he comes back with the answers—he really tries when giving us answers. I say that for no other reason than that it is the truth; I mean it and I want to put it on the record. There also needs to be greater communication in the devolved Administrations, where legislation may be the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly.

We need to take action and protect our workers. Hire and refire is an unfair and unjust practice, and the Minister and the Government must take responsibility for the one in four workers who have experienced a downgrade in employment terms, whether financially or with other conditions, such as for sick pay. In this day and age, that is disgraceful. The aim is to tackle exploitative employment practices, increase clarity in the law and make employees aware of their rights.

This debate makes employees aware of their rights, but we need legislative change to protect them. I gently but firmly ask, on behalf of my constituents and all of those across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, that the Government provide clarity on their stance on fire and rehire tactics. I want to see legislative protection, because the ultimate goal is to protect the workers.

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[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on his excellent exposé and on all the work that he has done on this extremely serious topic, which affects the whole of society.

Security at work is absolutely fundamental to workforce productivity, but it is also fundamental to stable communities. It enables people to plan ahead and work out what they can afford, and it offers the necessary security to take on the tenancy of a home, or to take out a loan to buy a car that they might need to get to work. It is absolutely vital for people’s mental health, because wondering every single second whether they will have a job next week does nothing at all to ease stress or help someone’s mental health. There are enough difficulties in life, particularly at the moment, without having to worry constantly about work insecurity.

The growth of fire and rehire is absolutely terrifying, especially when we see what were considered to be respectable and “safe” companies, such as British Airways and British Gas, go down the route of using such tactics. People now rightly feel that no job is safe anymore. Of course, there have always been exceptional circumstances in which, sadly, jobs were lost, but that is very different from the current situation in which companies are seemingly using fire and rehire tactics with very little pretext other than as a cost-cutting exercise, with employees suddenly faced with having to accept much worse pay and conditions with very little warning. Having pay and conditions cut is bad enough, but it can also affect someone’s security of tenure. A permanent contract can be replaced with a short-term contract, with no guarantee that the fire and rehire process will not be repeated a year or two later. Sadly, this situation is not confined to the private sector; it is now affecting workers in many parts of the public sector.

I remind Members of the effect of the casualisation of the workplace. A young man in my constituency worked from the age of 18 in factory after factory, job after job. He did not have a permanent job before he was 25. He was a good worker, but he could only get agency work—last in, first out. Companies and employers are getting a higher and higher percentage of their workforce as agency workers. The workers are paid less, but it costs the companies more because the agency takes a considerable cut.

That has an impact on a young person who is setting out in life. I am sure most of us in this room were able, when we first started working, to go into a job with a stable environment in which we hoped to stay for a number of years. That young man eventually set up as a landscape gardener on his own because it had become intolerable to be pushed from pillar to post. This is in an area where there are many manufacturing opportunities, but the culture has become increasingly difficult.

[David Linden]

Is that not precisely the problem? Because an employee has such poor rights, they might become self-employed, where they will probably not have the security of a pension, sick pay and holiday pay, and they will be pushed further into insecurity. We therefore need an employment Bill, and we need to ban fire and rehire. We all know that the world of work is changing, so there needs to be a comprehensive package from the Government that includes banning fire and rehire. We need legislation that reflects what is happening in 2022, because time has moved on.

[Dame Nia Griffith]

Absolutely. As the hon. Member says, there are so many other costs—massive costs to society, the economy and the public purse—wrapped up in the culture of fire and rehire.

This causes constant worry, mental health concerns and disruption. It is okay when someone starts out as a single individual, but it becomes more complicated if they have a partner or children. It is complicated by how far they can travel to work and where the agency sends them. Deciding whether they can accept the gaps between work becomes even more of a nightmare, and of course they have responsibilities. It must be depressing for them to look at someone up the road who they thought had a very good job with British Airways, only to see that he, too, has been subject to fire and rehire and is being asked to sign a new contract. They may have thought that one day they would have a permanent job and security, and now they see older workers having to sign on the dotted line to take worse pay and conditions. That is nothing to look forward to, and it does nothing for the cohesion of society.

As the TUC has documented, 3 million workers in this country have been told to reapply for their jobs. We already have 3 million workers on zero-hours contracts or casual contracts and 5 million self-employed, some of whom are pseudo self-employed. As we know, that is a way for employers to get out of paying the full costs of employing them.

Not only is allowing employers to use fire and rehire bad for the workers, but it undermines good companies that want to play fair by their employees. The willy-nilly use of fire and rehire by unscrupulous employers to cut costs can catch decent employers unawares, undermine them and risk putting them out of work. That can spiral out of control and become a real race to the bottom—who can pay less and therefore cut costs and make more profit with less pay to the workers? This race to the bottom with lower wages leads to much greater reliance on benefits, at huge cost to the public purse.

We are also clocking up a pensions time bomb. The Minister may say that we have auto-enrolment, but there are thresholds for that and part-time workers, in particular, are likely to miss out. When we—the generation coming through now—get to pension age, what will we find? We will find that a far higher percentage have to rely on some form of state help because they have not been able to put money by. Why is that? Because it has gone into the pockets of companies that have not been playing fair.

I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford) on the private Member’s Bill brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and his careful explanation of how it would work. Of course, we must not accept covid as an excuse—and it is nothing but an excuse. We all know that this is about increasing profit. There is also no truth in the statement “We cannot afford the current contracts.” We have labour shortages at the moment, so we have to afford it.

It is not just about fire and rehire, although that is the subject of today’s debate and is very important. We want much greater security from day one at work. I will not set out all of Labour’s manifesto commitments on this, but it is fundamental to our belief in a secure, cohesive and stable society that we should have security at work from day one.

The only solution to fire and rehire is an outright ban. That is not revolutionary; it is simply about respecting existing contracts and sticking to the law. A ban would be good for workers, productivity, community cohesion and the public purse. I therefore implore the Minister to take the issue seriously and introduce the necessary legislation without further delay.

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[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Ms McVey. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on securing today’s debate and giving us an opportunity once again to highlight why the abuse of fire and rehire really needs a legislative response from this Government—not warm words and future promises but real, concrete action to tackle this national disgrace.

My hon. Friend made a number of very important points and he was right: this Government seem to have shown more interest in saving the Prime Minister’s job than in saving those of their own constituents. As has been mentioned, the fact that there is not one Tory Back Bencher here today shows people everything they need to know about where employment rights sit in this Government’s list of priorities. My hon. Friend was exactly right when he said that the Government’s pledged action will still mean that workers can be dismissed for failing to agree to worse terms and conditions. That is really the nub of it—that is what we need to put an end to.

All the Back Benchers who spoke today put the case very well, but I want to draw attention to some of the contributions—in particular, that from my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford). He was right when he said that everyone, even the Prime Minister, knows that fire and rehire is wrong. My hon. Friend said that it was levelling down; I agree. He was also right when he said that it does not make sense economically, either. I am pleased that he spoke about our party’s green paper on employment rights, because that fantastic document will transform the lives of working people. It contrasts sharply with the lack of ambition that we have seen time and again from this Government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols) said that this tactic causes misery for many people and the majority of our constituents want to see an end to fire and rehire, so the Government would be doing something that was popular with the public if they listened to what we are saying. My hon. Friend rightly said that it is not enough to expect employers to do the right thing, because they do not all play by the rules. I pay tribute to her work as a trade union officer fighting against this practice. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in that regard. We should think for a minute how much worse the situation would be if we did not have trade unions willing to defend workers’ rights. Sadly, all we hear from this Government are negative stories about trade unions and how they want to reduce their power, rather than any support for their defence of working people. I agree with my hon. Friend that tackling this practice is about what kind of country and society we want to see.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) spoke of his decades of industrial experience as a trade unionist. I thank him on behalf of my constituents, whom he has represented on many occasions, for the work that he has done to support them. He has shown time and again how a good trade union can really make a difference and work constructively with employers, to the benefit of everyone. I commend him for the direct challenge that he made to the Minister about where we are going to end up. I suspect that my hon. Friend will be disappointed, but we all live in hope.

My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) made some excellent points about some of the wider issues in the workplace, and said that the fundamentals were about job security and people making financial commitments. We do not talk enough about the impact on people’s mental health of the uncertainty hanging over them. She was right that fire and rehire is often used as a pretext for cost cutting. If employers get away with it, they will try it again. She rightly highlighted the expansion of insecure work. Many young people, like the constituents she referred to, do not have any experience of a secure job.

As we have heard, fire and rehire is not a new development. It has been around for as long as people have had jobs. Just because something has happened for a long time does not make it right or acceptable. Even the Prime Minister seems to agree with that, although, as we have heard today, there is little evidence of him wanting to do anything.

Why, if this power has always been there, is it coming to the public’s attention much more now? Sadly, in the last few years we have seen a proliferation of companies, including many household names, adopting fire and rehire tactics as a first port of call rather than the last. British Airways, Sainsbury’s and Weetabix are just three household names that have used the tactics, and there are many more less public-facing companies that are doing exactly the same. Wabtec and Valeo in Yorkshire are two more recent examples.

Of course, P&O is the most high profile and possibly the most egregious example of how the scales of justice are tilted too heavily against the ordinary men and women in this country who just want to do a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay. They do not want to have the arrangement just for a while, until their employer decides it wants to move the goalposts and takes away their existing terms and conditions, presenting it as a fait accompli.

The reason we need action along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) in his private Member’s Bill, which the Government blocked, is that such cases have highlighted how employers price in the cost of riding roughshod over existing laws and conclude that it is a price that they are prepared to pay. They see their legal and moral obligations in the same light as they do the people who work for them—numbers to be counted, risks to be assessed and, in essence, just a barrier to making more money.

The Transport Committee said about British Airways that its use of fire and rehire was “calculated”. For too many employers, that is the case. Consultations are simply tick-box exercises, not that P&O even pretended one was necessary. Could the Minister update us on the progress in the P&O criminal investigation promised by the Prime Minister, or will that, like so many other Government promises, never come to fruition?

The genesis of fire and rehire is in the current workplace settlement, which places too much power in the hands of the employer and too little in the hands of the employees. This imbalance does not just manifest itself in this situation, but in a whole range of issues in the employment relationship. We could look at zero-hours contracts and the gig economy, or agency workers, as we have heard. Insecurity is baked into so many workplaces. It is little wonder that many people feel a sense of helplessness.

[David Linden]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman; he is outlining so many of the issues that we see in terms of workplace insecurity. It is quite clear, given the lack of an employment Bill, that this is not an area that the Government are interested in. Does he, as the Labour Front-Bench spokesman, agree with the Scottish TUC that it is important that we devolve employment law to the Scottish Parliament if Westminster will not act?

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Scully]

I will develop that in a second.

As I was saying, the chief executive of P&O Ferries admitted to breaking employment law. He demonstrated—not only in his actions on that weekend, but in the Select Committee hearing—absolute contempt for workers who had given years of service to his company. That was not just a case of fire and rehire, which is the subject of the debate; in the main, it was just fire, because the vast majority of those workers had no prospect of re- engagement. We have urged P&O to reconsider, but those calls have fallen on deaf ears.

[David Linden]

The Minister has probably made this point better than the rest of us: P&O’s acceptance that it was breaking the law very much makes the case for an employment Bill to strengthen workers’ rights. Anecdotally, the number of cases of fire and rehire is on the increase, partly because companies see others getting away with it. Do the Government hold any data on how often fire and rehire is happening, and if so, will they publish it? If they do not have that data, why not?

[Paul Scully]

I will talk a little about that in answering the question from the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), about what the Insolvency Service is doing in relation to P&O Ferries.

We engaged ACAS to better understand exactly what fire and rehire actually is. A lot of the reports in various media are not strictly about fire and rehire, because it is never quite as binary as it appears. However, there are some egregious examples, and I think we can all agree that we want to eliminate them, or at least push the bar so high that it is just not viable for employers to take that sort of action. As a result of the inability of P&O Ferries to hear not just what this House was saying but what the country was saying, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport set out the nine steps that we are taking to force it to rethink its decision and to prevent such cases from happening again in the maritime industry.

To come to the shadow Minister’s point, the Insolvency Service is now pursuing its own inquiries. It has commenced formal criminal and civil investigations into the circumstances around the redundancies. Those investigations are ongoing, so I am not in a position to comment any further on them for the time being, but I wish the Insolvency Service every speed in its efforts, as we all want a result that holds P&O Ferries to the highest account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Scully]

As I say, our manifesto commitments remain. The hon. Gentleman will see employment measures come forward both in this Session and before the end of the Parliament, because we want to act. We have pledged to do many things, and we absolutely want to stick to those pledges.

The hon. Member for Glasgow East talked about productivity. I will not comment on individual workers, but there is no doubt that companies in the UK are less productive than companies elsewhere in the G7, so we need to work on our productivity as a nation, and as businesses. That involves a whole raft of things, including working practices, the relationship between employers and employees, and infrastructure. If we raised our productivity to German levels, it is estimated that we could add £100 billion to our economy. Those are pretty substantial gains, if we can get there.

[David Linden]

I caution the Minister against making too many comparisons with Germany, which has much higher statutory sick pay. If he wants to make international like-for-like comparisons, let us look at the whole package, and the wider picture.

[Paul Scully]

I am going wider than workers’ rights and productivity. That is why we are rolling out the Help to Grow management scheme for smaller businesses, and other things. This is huge. We need better transport connections. That is part of the levelling-up agenda. There are lots of things within that, and I do not underestimate what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Our employment landscape is very different from that in Germany. In Germany, they tend to ask permission—it is courts first there, whereas we tend to be tribunal led. There are big differences.

One of the key things I want to raise about productivity relates to what the hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) said. She was absolutely right to say that job security leads to a better, more productive, happier and more loyal workforce. That allows workers and employees to plan and it results in better mental wellbeing. That is why, by setting statutory minimums in legislation, guidance and codes, we want employers to go further. Frankly, it makes business sense for employers to go further, rather than follow the egregious example of P&O. What is the point of taking people on and training them, which involves costs, time and resources, only to then cast them aside and have to do the same thing again?

Oral Answers to Questions

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley]

As a fellow midlands MP, I very much welcome the report from Midlands Connect about the opportunities that our region can take together for the long term. I know how hard my hon. Friend and her colleagues in Staffordshire work on this, and I would be happy to meet her to discuss the matter further.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

14. What plans his Department has to bring forward legislative proposals on neonatal leave and pay.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

We recognise that parents of babies receiving neonatal care need extra support during some of the most difficult days of their lives. We are committed to introducing neonatal leave and pay to meet this need as soon as parliamentary time allows.

[David Linden]

We are all disappointed that there is no employment Bill, but there is cross-party agreement in the House on neonatal leave and pay. Leaving to one side the more controversial aspects of the employment Bill, what would stop the Government supporting a stand-alone Bill to enact policies on neonatal leave and pay?

[Paul Scully]

We absolutely welcome and recognise the interest in this issue, especially from the hon. Gentleman, who has personal experience of the subject and has raised it a number of times in the House. I remain committed to the legislation. We can work on it in different ways. I believe that we have a meeting scheduled, and I am looking forward to discussing how we can deliver these policies in good time.

Energy Security Strategy

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 19th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

My right hon. Friend will appreciate that tax issues specifically are not in my portfolio, but I speak to the Chancellor of the Exchequer all the time about how we can incentivise investment in new, exciting green technologies. That is something that we are very pleased to do.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

I think that all of us in this House, when we think of the energy crisis, would want to encourage our constituents to take forward energy efficiency measures, but in one particular type of property—the tenement properties that we have right across Glasgow’s east end—energy efficiency is even more problematic. Will the Secretary of State meet me to look at the specific energy efficiency challenges that Glaswegians face?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I would be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman, as I meet many of his Scottish colleagues, to discuss really critical energy issues.

Paid Miscarriage Leave

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Westminster Hall

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for securing today’s debate, and congratulate her on the power of work that she has done on this issue. Like many others, I support the private Member’s Bill that she is trying to pilot through the House.

I had a difficult situation only last week when I met a constituent, Gillian McLellan. She and her husband, Christopher, unfortunately experienced the loss of their baby Daisy. Thursday past would have been Daisy’s due date.

I have three brief points to make while I have the floor and we can discuss the wider issue of miscarriage and bereavement leave. First, there are many great charities out there. Baby Loss Retreat is one that has been doing stellar work to support Gillian and Christopher. I sometimes question why it falls to charities so often to provide support to people. That follows neatly to the issue of counselling.

I have looked at the issue across the UK. Not just in Scotland, but right across these islands there is clearly a postcode lottery when it comes to counselling for parents. I accept that during the pandemic some things were done by Zoom, but the lack of support for Gillian and many other families, particularly over the last couple of years, is something we will have to look at.

There is a wider and perhaps more sensitive issue around certification. I understand that we can get into a very difficult debate when it comes to issuing birth certificates. In Daisy’s case that would have been at 17 weeks. That then leads, for example, to details not being recorded in NHS notes, which is particularly problematic if there is a follow-up pregnancy, so Ministers across these islands have to reflect on that.

The final point I want to make relates to the Employment Bill. I have always found the Minister to be incredibly thoughtful. He and I have had a lot of dialogue, particularly on neonatal leave and pay, but I really want to see the Employment Bill enacted as quickly as possible. This will be one of the biggest issues that our generation of MPs will legislate on. It strikes me that elements of the Employment Bill, no doubt as a result of Brexit, will be controversial, but I again issue a plea to the Minister that bereavement leave and neonatal leave and pay be decoupled from the Employment Bill. Some of the issues have such a high level of cross-party support in the House that we could pilot them through in a day, as we did last night with certain legislation.

So let us decouple some of the less controversial aspects of the Employment Bill and make sure that commendable as my hon. Friend’s Bill is, she does not have to take it forward. We need the Government to come forward with a decoupled Bill that would tackle this and so many other issues on which there is vast cross-party agreement in this House.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. I congratulate the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) on securing today’s important debate. This is a really important and sensitive issue, and I want to express my deep sympathy for anybody who has experienced the loss of a baby. Sometimes the most poignant debates in this place are when we talk about baby loss at any stage of pregnancy, or indeed after birth.

The hon. Member has spoken with candour and passion, and I am grateful to her not just for today’s debate, but for our exchanges and the rest of the work that she has done, and for raising awareness of the significant impact of baby loss at any stage on parents. I also want to thank others who have contributed to this debate for their thoughtful and insightful comments, especially, as the hon. Lady rightly notes, on International Women’s Day when we come together to showcase the issues that are so important not just for women, but for families and couples across this country and the world.

As a Government we understand that there is plenty more that needs to be done to support women’s health. I will begin by first setting out the wider work that the Government are taking forward in relation to women’s health, including in the workplace. In March 2021, we announced the establishment of England’s first women’s health strategy, which is being led by the Department of Health and Social Care. Health in the workplace and fertility, pregnancy, pregnancy loss and postnatal support will be priority areas within the women’s health strategy.

We know that damaging taboos and stigmas remain around many areas of women’s health. They can prevent women from starting conversations about their health or seeking support for a health issue. When women do speak about their health, all too often they are not listened to, but the Government are determined to tackle those issues. We want to ensure that women feel supported in the workplace, that taboos are broken down through open conversation, and that employers feel well equipped to support women in managing their health within the workplace. “Our Vision for the Women’s Health Strategy for England”, published on 23 December 2021, sets out an ambitious and positive new agenda to improve the health and wellbeing of women across England. We will publish the full strategy later this year, but in the meantime I reiterate that the levelling up of women’s health is an imperative for us all.

The Government have an active agenda on work and health more widely. One example is the Government’s response to the “Health is everyone’s business” consultation. The response sets out measures that will protect and maintain progress made in reducing ill health-related job loss, and will see 1 million more disabled people in work from 2017 to 2027. The measures include a national digital information and advice service to provide greater clarity around employer and employee rights and responsibilities, working with the Health and Safety Executive to develop a set of clear and simple principles for employers, and increasing access to occupational health. Those measures are key steps in our effort to change the workplace culture around health and sickness absence, which will benefit those who have lost a pregnancy.

The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East is specifically interested in a leave entitlement for miscarriage. In April 2020, we introduced parental bereavement leave and pay for employed parents who lose a child under the age of 18, or who suffer a stillbirth from 24 weeks of pregnancy. That new entitlement recognises that the death of a child or the stillbirth of a baby is particularly tragic. Although parental bereavement leave does not apply when a baby is lost before 24 completed weeks of pregnancy, there is support available. Women who are not able to return to work because of ill health following a miscarriage may be entitled, for example, to statutory sick pay or annual leave, and their entitlements need to be looked at in the round with the wider benefits system.

Parental bereavement leave and pay is a statutory minimum, and in introducing that entitlement the Government sent an important message to employers that staff members who have suffered a bereavement should be supported. Indeed, I am pleased to say that there are many good examples of businesses that offer compassionate leave for their employees following a miscarriage. The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East talked about ASOS as one of those examples. I have spoken to ASOS. What it offers is not miscarriage leave per se; as she rightly described, it covers “life events”. ASOS is particularly forward looking in understanding that miscarriage is one of a series of really important life events that affect people in different ways. ASOS has that wrap-around care because it understands that investing in the workforce is the right thing to do—to keep people in the workforce, keep them happy and keep them content.

Flexible working may not be an alternative, in the view of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake), but different people have different responses to a life event such as miscarriage. It is a really personal experience. Some of those affected may want to stay at home; others may prefer to continue to work, or alternatively may need time off later. That is where flexible working can make a difference for many people, but not all people—as I say, it is a very personalised experience. Individuals are best placed to understand their own specific needs, and good employers will respond to requests made by their employees in a sensitive way. It is right that we showcase those employers doing well, and that we also explain that it is the right thing to do not only morally—from a humanity point of view—but from a business point of view. It makes no sense to take a different view from that of those far-sighted companies that are making a wider, longer-term investment in their workforces. However, we are in a difficult economic climate, and that cannot be ignored. We are mindful of placing additional burdens on business, but, as I have mentioned, we strongly encourage employers to go beyond the statutory minimum wherever they can.

The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East noted that miscarriage and the associated grief are not illness. However, when an event negatively affects someone’s mental or physical health, they may have the option of taking sick leave, and may also be eligible for statutory sick pay. Employees who are able to claim sick pay can self-certify as sick for the first seven days that they are off work; after that time a fit note is required, and their employer can request medical evidence if they wish. In addition, there are protections in place for those who need to take sick leave following a miscarriage, which mean that any sick leave taken during the two-week period after pregnancy ends should not count towards a total sickness record or be used as a reason for redundancy or disciplinary action. Individuals who are not eligible for statutory sick pay and those who require additional support may be eligible for universal credit and the new-style employment and support allowance.

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. It would be remiss to allow the debate to pass without putting on record that statutory sick pay on these islands is among the lowest rates in Europe. It is fine to talk about statutory sick pay, but not at the pitiful levels that the UK pays at the moment.

[Paul Scully]

I understand the hon. Member’s point of view. I ask him to look at it in the round, alongside universal credit and other means of welfare. We have said we would always look at statutory sick pay, but we do not believe that now is the time to do it, as we are coming out of a pandemic. That is certainly something that we are keeping under review, as part of that wider holistic approach to welfare, benefits and workplace support.

All employees are also entitled to take 5.6 weeks a year of annual leave, in some cases more if their contract of employment allows. Normally, employees need to give notice of leave dates, but employers may agree to waive the notice period.

Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Bill

David Linden Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 7th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Liam Byrne]

I am grateful for your guidance, Dame Eleanor, because I think I have made my point: the Government need to take on more power to seize and freeze these assets.

The final point I wish to make is about strategic lawsuits against public participation. We recently had a good debate on lawfare, sponsored by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden and myself. In amendments 37 and 38, we make proposals that the Government could adopt. I do not wish to press them to a vote tonight, but I would like the Minister to confirm what the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary said in the media on Friday. The Justice Secretary told “BBC Breakfast” that SLAPPs were an

“abuse of our system and I’m going to be putting forward proposals to deal with that and to prevent that”.

The Foreign Secretary later told The Guardian that she had asked Government lawyers to “find literally any way” to crack down on SLAPPs. I would like this Minister’s confirmation that that is indeed going to happen, not in some consultation response to the Human Rights Act, but as a stand-alone piece of legislation, so that we can live in truth in this country. It is outrageous that English courts are being used as a means to silence journalists such as Tom Burgis, Carole Cadwalladr and Catherine Belton. I want great books such as “Butler to the World” by Oliver Bullough to be written with the freedom to tell the truth, and at the moment the oligarchs are denying us that freedom. They are launching a war on free speech in English courts, of all places. That scandal has surely got to stop.

I will conclude by saying that it is now clear that what our country needs Russia is a recontainment strategy towards Russia. That will entail a refortification of the NATO frontline to the east; resupplying the Ukrainian forces; and suppressing and repressing the Russian economy. Sanctions do not produce instant results—Presidents Mugabe and Maduro presided over economies in ruin for many years—but this would give us progress.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

I rise to speak to amendment 63, which stands in my name and those of my colleagues. I am grateful to you, Dame Eleanor, for selecting it as a manuscript amendment, particularly at such short notice. I am not normally a fan of ramming a Bill through in such short order, but I understand the need for speed in this case.

As others said on Second Reading, the Bill is to be broadly welcomed, but it does not go far and fast enough. A much bigger and more wide-ranging debate stems from the Elections Bill, which is currently in the other place, and the eligibility of overseas voters and donors to influence our politics, but I do not think we want to go too far down that rabbit warren this evening. However, clause 38 makes provision for financial penalties to be applied in respect of overseas entities, and I support that.

My amendment seeks to close off a loophole: we could apply significant financial penalties to an individual, yet said individual, even if they lived overseas, would still be able to vote and, more concerningly, donate significant sums to UK political parties and influence our elections. I am the first to accept that our focus right now should be on applying the maximum economic sanctions on Russia to alleviate and end the military bombardment that it is subjecting the poor people of Ukraine to. It strikes me as a little bizarre that we can have a debate—and indeed legislate tonight—on the issue of dirty Russian money in these islands, but miss a trick by not also cleaning up our politics of said dirty Russian money. Countless warnings have been sounded on this issue, most notably in the Intelligence and Security Committee’s Russia report, which flagged up the vulnerability of our politics to Putin’s influence in cyber and in funnelling money into some political parties and referendum campaigns.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

The point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) was that so much of this Bill has been so slow in being forthcoming. There were huge delays in publishing the Russia report. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concerns that, given the report’s findings of Russian influence in British politics, that was another act by a Government who were perhaps benefiting from that?

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that. Even the Minister who is piloting the Elections Bill through in the Commons admitted that she had not read the Russia report, so it is no surprise that the Government are so ignorant towards it. It is an indisputable, though regrettable, fact that the Conservative party has previously accepted donations from people who have ties to the Kremlin. Such gifts to the party are legally, if not ethically, legitimate, in so far as they are within current electoral law when properly declared. However, lines have been drawn between senior Conservatives and some pretty unsavoury characters.

[Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[David Linden]

If I may, I will continue.

The genesis of my amendment comes from the fact that the Bill, as drafted, would make provision for an individual to be found to have committed an offence under part 1 of the Bill. The registrar would be able to impose significant penalties which I—indeed, I assume all of us—would support, but without the inclusion of my amendment 63 in the Bill, that individual would still be permitted to participate in UK democracy and, crucially, to donate money—dirty money—to influence our elections. If we leave this loophole open and unchecked, we will be in a perverse position in which Putin’s cronies are still polluting our politics with dirty money, even after they have been sanctioned through the use of the very legislation that we are discussing this evening.

One of the problems of rushing legislation is that we miss many issues that would be found during a proper process of scrutiny by both Houses. As I have said, there is much more than we can do in this regard. I should be interested to hear from the Minister, when he winds up the debate—probably just about now—why the Government would think that this small but important amendment, intended to tie up a loophole, should be rejected tonight. I look forward to his response.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he does in Ashfield and for his incredible voice in this regard. He is right to highlight how technology will take much of the weight of the transition over the next 30 years, and the importance therefore of companies supporting such technology development. We are engaging with businesses, and we will continue to do so, through programmes such as boosting access for SMEs on energy efficiency. I am happy to talk to my hon. Friend about that if it helps.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

T3. Last month, I met Ed Burns, the managing director of H. Grossman Ltd, a toy company based in Glasgow East. Alongside the British Toy & Hobby Association, it is concerned about the growing number of unsafe toys being sold to UK customers by third-party sellers via online marketplaces. Will the Minister meet us to discuss the campaign to tighten up safety on children’s toys?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. The Office for Product Safety and Standards, over the period since the campaign was launched in April, has taken 10,000 unsafe products off the market, and it continues to work to identify products available online that pose a serious risk. We are reviewing the UK’s product safety framework in this area, but I will happily meet the hon. Gentleman.

Post Office Closures

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

It is, as always, a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, although I must say that I miss seeing my friend Sir David Amess sitting in that chair, here in Westminster Hall. If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is a season ticket holder for Westminster Hall, then I am an aspiring season ticket holder. Of course, another Member who was in here very often—if not in the chair, then on the Benches opposite—was Sir David.

As this is the first opportunity I have had, I place on record my sincerest condolences to Sir David’s wife Julia, to his children, and to his staff—particularly Gill, who worked for him and has been such a support to the all-party parliamentary group on fairs and showgrounds, which David led superbly. I know that we will all miss him enormously.

I also want to acknowledge and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for initiating this morning’s debate. She is a tireless campaigner for post offices, whose work has shown their importance to our local communities right across these islands.

[Marion Fellows]

I crave everyone’s indulgence; I lost the last five pages of my speech, but I really must use this opportunity to raise a couple of issues. A moratorium on the closure of Crown post offices, which was negotiated by the Communication Workers Union, is due to end next year. Will the Minister please confirm that it will continue? Will he also speak to other Departments within Government to find out what other services they can put into post offices, with charges that will help sub-postmasters’ remuneration?

[David Linden]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on being so versatile as to ask questions to the Minister through me. I feel like the Cilla Black of Westminster Hall here in pulling people together, but she is right to place on record those questions to the Minister. I join her in paying tribute to the Communication Workers Union, which has campaigned tirelessly on Crown post offices. We very much reaffirm to the Minister the need to see more progress.

Over the course of this debate, we have had 11 contributions from Members in all four constituent parts of the UK. That in itself shows that this is not an issue that affects only Scottish MPs, but that there are wider issues around the sustainability of the post office network right across these islands. In my own consistency of Glasgow East, even in my short time as an MP we have seen the closure, both temporary and permanent, of post offices in Cranhill, Garthamlock, Tollcross and Parkhead. That is four post offices in the four years I have been here.

The closures have had far-reaching consequences for my constituents, and many have felt the absence of the postal services in their local area. Post offices provide essential services for local communities across these islands, from mailing and posting to accessing pensions and benefits. On the subject of benefits, the decision by the Department for Work and Pensions to move away from the Post Office card account is particularly damaging for the sustainability of post offices. As I have said many times before in the House, we must ensure that vulnerable people and particularly our older constituents still have access to cash. I will return to that point later.

Despite all the vital services they provide, post offices are routinely being shut down across these islands. In 2001, there were just over 1,900 post offices in Scotland; pre-pandemic, their number had dipped to 1,300, and we know there have been further casualties in the network since then. In August alone, my small urban constituency saw the closure of not one, but two post offices, in Garthamlock and Parkhead. Though there may be light at the end of the tunnel for residents in Parkhead, the broader picture suggests that local services in the east end are being decimated, with communities being abandoned as the post office network collapses like a pack of cards. Put simply, it leaves my constituents and I continually worrying about which post office will be the next to close. I have a lot of time for Mark Gibson at the Post Office, but every time I see his name in my inbox it spells out that yet another closure is coming.

As part of the campaign to save Garthamlock post office, I and a hard-working local councillor, Ruairi Kelly, met with CJ Lang & Son Ltd to better understand how the situation came about and continues to crop up. I also met with Calum Greenhow from the National Federation of SubPostmasters. I have raised this issue in the House before, but through my meetings it has become clear that Post Office Ltd struggles desperately to get sub-postmasters to take on branches and indeed keep them on. For many, it is an inescapable fact and a financial reality that branches are not economically viable, forcing them into the difficult decision of closing down. For operators such as CJ Lang, which at the end of the day is a private enterprise, that is a black and white commercial decision, which I understand from a very crude profit/loss perspective.

I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw who mentioned that in many cases, it is more profitable for CJ Lang to have a Subway store or a Costa machine. That highlights some of the major problems. Clearly, there are problems with the fundamental business model for post offices, which needs addressing. That is something that I and many other Members have raised with the British Government, but it appears thus far to have fallen on deaf ears. As we see post offices being closed, we risk inflicting huge and long-lasting damage on local communities, which rely heavily on post offices and the services they provide, particularly after banks have long taken flight.

The importance of post offices in providing access to cash is a particularly prevalent issue in my constituency in the east end of Glasgow. The consumer group Which? has recently undertaken research that identifies 259 communities from across the UK with poor cashpoint provision or no ATMs at all. The Federation of Small Businesses has reminded us that when an area loses cashpoints, it has real impacts on surrounding small businesses: sales fall as customers who want to pay with notes and coins are left in the lurch, and footfall drops as shoppers head to other areas with greater access to cash. The recent decision by Barclays to continue allowing customers to freely access cash at post offices was the right one.

We need to see continued support from banks for the post office network, not least because we know that banks, when—I was going to say when consulting, but actually more often when giving us notification of closures in our constituencies—often say to us, “Oh well, the Post Office can step in and backfill,” only for the post office network to be eroded further after that.

In the 2020 spending review, the Treasury announced £227 million worth of investment in the Post Office, including a subsidy of £50 million to protect customers’ access to essential services in commercially challenging locations. I question whether £227 million of funding is enough, but it is a step in the right direction. I hope the Minister can provide an update today—specifically on which locations have been deemed to be commercially challenging, how the money will be allocated and what the timescale will be. Given that I lost not one but two post offices in the space of the month this summer, I suggest the east end of Glasgow ticks the commercially challenging box without a doubt.

Thus far, the British Government are failing way short of meeting their responsibility to provide and uphold postal services in our communities. As a constituency MP, I am clear that the continued threat to post offices puts vulnerable and older constituents in Glasgow at grave risk of losing yet more vital services in an area that has already been hit extremely hard. To be blunt, Ministers in Whitehall must stop viewing post offices through a narrow commercial prism; instead, they must see them as pieces of vital community infrastructure that need protection and investment. I say to the Government very clearly that they cannot level up communities when shutters are being pulled down.