Lord Grayling
Main Page: Lord Grayling (Conservative - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Grayling's debates with the Ministry of Justice
(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
4. What progress he has made in developing an evidence-based policy to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The Prime Minister has restated our determination to apply an intelligent approach to reducing reoffending. By 2015, I intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community. In addition, the National Offender Management Service published its commissioning intentions for the coming financial year on 1 November, clearly stating our commitment to evidence-informed commissioning.
Roberta Blackman-Woods
As the House heard earlier, the Ministry of Justice’s own survey has revealed that restorative justice can reduce reoffending by as much as 14%. These methods are being effectively used by probation and prison services in Durham, which has one of the lowest reoffending rates in the north-east. What further steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that this evidence-based approach is supported and has the necessary resources to be effective?
Chris Grayling
We are looking to allow for the greater use of restorative justice in the criminal justice system—for example, by allowing an element of restorative justice between a verdict and the sentence in court, to establish whether that can have an impact on the sentence that would otherwise be passed and the likelihood of the offender to reoffend. I would commend all those who are using restorative justice. It is a common-sense early intervention in the criminal justice system and there is no doubt that it is having an impact on offending rates.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
When the Secretary of State is developing his evidence-based policy, will he look at the Ministry of Justice’s own figures, which show that the longer people spend in prison, the less likely they are to reoffend, and that the lowest reoffending rate for any sentence handed down by the courts is for indeterminate sentences for public protection?
Chris Grayling
May I say clearly to my hon. Friend that I share his view? I think prison is a very important part of the criminal justice system, I believe that offenders should serve a prison sentence appropriate for the crime they have committed and I have given a clear commitment that there will be no strategy under my leadership of the Ministry of Justice to reduce the number of prison places artificially. I want to see the right people going to prison in the first place.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) spookily teed that up rather nicely for me. We all want to see policies based on evidence. The evidence tells us that the most effective means of protecting the public from convicted sex offenders is to keep them behind bars for as long as it takes to stop them being a threat. The Government took away so-called indeterminate sentences. It was a dangerous mistake and we said so at the time. When will the Secretary of State put that right and protect our citizens?
Chris Grayling
We have introduced longer determinate sentences to deal with the most serious offenders and, unlike the previous Government, we have introduced a “two strikes and you’re out rule” for the worst sex offenders, to ensure that if they offend for a second time, they will go to jail for the rest of their lives.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
5. What progress he has made on reform of the criminal injuries compensation scheme.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
7. What plans he has to review prisoners’ entitlement to privileges.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
It is really important that we ensure that the public have confidence in the prison system, and it is crucial that they are assured that any privileges earned in prison are gained through hard work and appropriate behaviour. In the light of this, the Prisons Minister and I have immediately moved to start a review of the policy around the incentives scheme for prisoners. We need to be confident that the system of incentives has credibility with the public. There are important operational reasons for the original policy, but we need to be clear that the incentives are pitched at the right level.
Mr Jones
Many of my constituents feel that some of the privileges provided in our prisons are far too soft on the inmates. How is my right hon. Friend preparing to reverse the tradition whereby many of our prison inmates have been left to pass their time in an enforced situation in which they are completely idle most of the day, with little or no meaningful activity?
Chris Grayling
First, I am quite prepared to make changes to the incentive regime in our prisons if it proves necessary to do so. I am absolutely clear that prisons should be places that rehabilitate, not places to which people have any desire to go back. It is equally important, however, that we have within our prisons proper processes to ensure that prisoners are trained and given work experience. One of the achievements of the current Government over the last few months is that we have seen a steady increase, under the stewardship of the previous Secretary of State, which the current ministerial team is now taking on, in the number of hours worked by prisoners in our prisons. That has got to be right.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
8. What plans he has to introduce a payment by results scheme to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
By 2015, I intend to apply payment by results to the majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders in the community. Providers will be commissioned to rehabilitate offenders, and those who are successful at reducing reoffending will be rewarded. I will announce detailed proposals shortly.
Amber Rudd
Studies such as the recent report from the Prison Reform Trust show that women have higher rates of reoffending. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on plans to divert women from custody in the first place, particularly those with short sentences?
Chris Grayling
I do agree. One of the first prisons I visited was Holloway. I saw at first hand the very different challenge we face with women offenders. One of the earliest steps I took was to separate ministerial responsibility for men and women in our prisons, asking the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) to take on the role of Minister with responsibility for women in prisons, and to look at whether we are getting the regime right and how we should adapt it to reflect the very different challenges we face with women in our prisons.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
9. What consideration the Government has given to the UK opting out en masse from EU Justice and Home Affairs directives.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced to this House on 15 October, the Government are currently minded to opt out of the measures included in the 2014 decision en bloc, and to consider which measures it is in our national interest to rejoin. This is a complex issue, and we are considering carefully the individual merits of each measure, continuing to work with law enforcement and criminal justice partners to do so. We are committed to a vote in both Houses before we finalise our decision.
Andrea Leadsom
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Will he tell me whether he is considering undertaking international co-operation on EU justice and home affairs rather than simply looking at the option of opting back in to specific EU directives?
Chris Grayling
I give my hon. Friend that assurance. It is absolutely clear that we can work with international partners effectively in fighting crime, as we do with non-EU allies around the world, without necessarily handing over sovereignty over these measures to the European Court of Justice. We are looking very carefully at where there is good reason to opt back in and it is in the national interest to do so, but we will not take those decisions lightly.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Yes. [Interruption.] I am fully awake, thank you.
The Members behind the Secretary of State are determined to break with so much to do with European law and Europe as a whole. Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the European convention on human rights, the European Court of Human Rights and all the advantages that have been given to people who would otherwise be denied human rights across Europe are very important, and that we should dedicate ourselves to supporting that principle even though at times a European court, just like a UK court, can make decisions that are inconvenient and are seen to be unhelpful to national Governments? That is the whole principle of the independence of the judicial system.
Chris Grayling
The European convention on human rights was written in the 1950s by Conservatives at a time when Stalin was in power in Russia and people were being sent to the gulags without trial. What has happened over 40 or 50 years is that the judgments around the human rights framework have moved a long way from the original intentions of the authors of the convention. That is why it is my strong belief that change has to happen.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
10. What progress he has made in encouraging tribunal judges to supply feedback to Department for Work and Pensions decision-makers on the reasons for successful employment and support allowance appeals.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
11. How many foreign national prisoners were repatriated to their home country to serve their custodial sentence in 2011.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The simple answer is “Not nearly enough.” In 2011, 32 foreign national prisoners and one British national were sent to other countries to serve their sentences. The number of prisoners being repatriated is still unacceptably small, as it has been for a number of years under both Governments. I am not satisfied with that, and I am determined to push the numbers up, but the House should be aware that this is a difficult issue. We need the collaboration of other countries, and we are working hard to secure it.
Nick Smith
What a dismal record. Back in November 2010, the Prime Minister said that he would “personally” lead a new drive to remove foreign prisoners. Given that the number repatriated in 2011 was just a third of the number in Labour’s last year in government, is this not yet another illustration of a Prime Minister who over-promises but under-delivers?
Chris Grayling
I will not take any lectures from a party that was responsible for the levels of immigration to this country that we have seen over the past decade. There are now fewer foreign nationals in our prisons than was the case under Labour. I intend to continue the drive both to deport people when they have finished their sentences, and to deport them through prisoner transfer agreements as soon as we possibly can.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend make it a departmental priority to negotiate compulsory prisoner transfer agreements with Commonwealth member countries, especially Nigeria and Jamaica, which seem to be the source of most of the foreign national offenders in our prisons?
Chris Grayling
I can give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance to that effect. The prisons Minister—my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright)—and I have met our Jamaican counterparts during the last few weeks. We are focusing our efforts to negotiate compulsory transfer agreements on the countries where the problem is greatest. Of course, what we inherited from the previous Government were voluntary agreements, which, as we all know, have a limited effect.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
15. What plans he has to use training and education to reduce reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
We fully recognise the importance of training and education in improving an offender’s chances of employment and thereby reducing reoffending. That is central to the reforms set out in the joint Ministry of Justice and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills strategy “Making Prisons Work”. My officials are also working with the Department for Work and Pensions to provide enhanced employment support via the Work programme.
Gordon Henderson
I have three prisons in my constituency—[Hon. Members: “Well done!”] Yes! They work very closely together, and have an excellent record of effective education and training. Will my right hon. Friend agree to visit Sheppey to see for himself the good work that is being done to reduce reoffending?
Chris Grayling
I pay tribute to all the staff who work in the three prisons in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I should be delighted to visit Sheppey in the next few months and see, with him, the work that is being done. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s constituents—not just those who work in the Prison Service, but those who provide it with support services. What Sheppey is doing for the criminal justice system is enormously important.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
Training for work and cutting back on drug use are two proven ways of reducing reoffending. Will the Secretary of State therefore comment on the independent monitoring board report on HMP Risley, showing that, because of Government cuts, training is being cut back and illegal drug use is increasing, thereby undermining officers’ past good work? That is likely to impose a further cost on the community if offending goes up as a result.
Chris Grayling
It is simply not the case that we are seeing the kind of problems the hon. Lady mentions across the prison system. The reality is that we have no choice but to deal with the financial challenges left behind by the previous Government. The trick is delivering a more effective system for less money, and that is what we are doing.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
16. What steps he plans to take to reduce the number of offenders serving repeated short sentences.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would just like to say a few words about the Abu Qatada case. I strongly support the comments that the Home Secretary made yesterday, and would indicate to the House that my Department will do everything it can to support the Home Office in its efforts to get Abu Qatada deported. All of us believe that the law should not operate in this way, and this case underlines my view that there is a real need for major changes to the way in which the European human rights framework operates.
Grahame M. Morris
May I refer the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) back to the answer she gave a few moments ago in response to the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat)? Given the importance of this to victims of workplace accidents and industrial diseases, will the Minister meet a small delegation of Labour MPs to receive representations on the implications of the proposal to amend the ceiling on small claims compensation?
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
T3. Is it not rather counter-intuitive, given the Secretary of State’s excellent views, to be closing rather than opening prisons? Why then are the Government consulting on closing Lincoln prison, which, as far as I know, has caused no trouble to the community since Eamon de Valera escaped from it during the first world war, and which provides 400 jobs, and humanely and safely locks our local villains away?
Chris Grayling
First, let me explain the context to my hon. Friend. We are in the middle of a programme of new for old in the Prison Service; we are bringing on stream new capacity as well as closing down old capacity, as part of a drive to bring down the overall cost of running the Prison Service by making the unit cost of each place cheaper. We are looking at a number of options, and no decisions have been taken on Lincoln prison. There is no proposal to close it, and I can assure him that I will personally be looking carefully at this issue, as I am well aware of the geographical circumstances of Lincoln, particularly the lack of good transport to other locations in the prison system.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Justice Secretary referred to the Abu Qatada case. We have also recently heard the ruling of Reading county court, which held that a same-sex couple had been discriminated against by a bed and breakfast owner who refused to let them stay in her B and B. Will the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice join me in welcoming that ruling?
Chris Grayling
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I never comment on individual cases, but I voted for the law behind that case and stand by the decision I took at the time to vote for it.
Sadiq Khan
Three minutes ago, the Justice Secretary commented on a case from yesterday. Three minutes later, he is unwilling to comment on a case from three weeks ago. He looks uncomfortable—does he think that he was wrong when, as shadow Home Secretary, he said:
“B and Bs should be able to turn away gay couples”?
Will he now apologise for those comments and commend the Equality Act 2010, which is doing so much to tackle discrimination in this country?
Chris Grayling
I was not aware that I was accountable to the House for Opposition roles, but I will say again to the right hon. Gentleman that I voted for the law as it stands and I stand by that decision.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
T4. Does my right hon. Friend have plans to use the opportunities provided by new technology in tracking offenders?
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
T2. The Association of Child Abuse Lawyers has expressed great concern about drastic changes to the rules on legal costs that are due in April next year. They believe that those changes could have serious implications for the victims of childhood abuse. Is the Secretary of State aware of those concerns and what does he propose to do about them, especially in view of recent events?
Chris Grayling
It is nice to get a serious question from the Opposition. These are sensitive issues and we have had to take difficult decisions about the legal aid system. We have the most expensive legal aid system in Europe and, given the financial challenges we inherited, no change was not an option. We will, of course, continue to review the impact of the changes we have made to ensure that there are no unintended consequences. I will not be afraid to reconsider some of those issues if it proves that what we have done has created a major problem.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
T5. Will the Secretary of State urgently review the proposed changes to the Bail Act 1976 contained in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012? In some cases, magistrates will be forced to free defendants who they know will fail to surrender, will commit further offences while on bail and, in some cases, will go on to intimidate witnesses? To make matters worse, as the 2012 Act stands, if those offenders breach their bail conditions, the magistrates’ hands will be tied and they will have no choice but to rebail them. Is this not a ridiculous state of affairs?
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
In his response to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) on the question of payment by results and reoffending, the Secretary of State talked about the importance of evidence. Will he share with the House his assessment of the reasons behind the failure of the Mayor of London’s Project Heron at Feltham?
Chris Grayling
Of course I am not responsible for the Mayor of London’s projects. On the question of our whole approach to the rehabilitation of offenders and the introduction of payment by results, the nature of payment by results means that we provide incentives to providers to deliver what works best. There is constant pressure in a payment- by-results system to find best practice and apply it in a way that delivers best results for offenders and for the taxpayer.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T6. The social impact bond from Peterborough prison to reduce reoffending was launched just over a year ago. Full results will only be available after year four. What assessment has the Secretary of State made so far of the effects of the work done? Has it reduced reoffending?
Chris Grayling
We have not yet done the assessment—the detailed work—but I think there are good grounds for believing that good work has been done, and I will provide more information in due course.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The lessons from the Qatada case are that it is quite difficult to deport people to jurisdictions that do not adhere to, as a basis, the UN convention on torture, for example. What is the Department doing to encourage jurisdictions outside Europe to sign up to a higher standard of international law, so that there is a greater sense of parallel of the rights of justice in this country, in Europe and in other parts of the world?
Chris Grayling
Of course, it is the role of Britain and other democratic nations to encourage non-democratic countries around the world to adopt democratic principles, the rule of law and a proper fair, independent judiciary. But I have to say that I do not believe it was ever the intention of those who created the human rights framework to which we are currently subject that people who have an avowed intent to do damage to this country should be able to use human rights laws to prevent their deportation back to their country of origin.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
T7. Does the Secretary of State believe that the election of police and crime commissioners on Thursday will help restore public confidence in the way that offences are dealt with in local communities?
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
T8. I wonder whether the Secretary of State might update the House on discussions he has had with the Home Office about deporting foreign national prisoners straight away when they complete their sentence in the UK.
Chris Grayling
We have regular contacts at both ministerial and official level and, of course, we now have the benefit of the presence of the former Immigration Minister, who brings knowledge of both sides of that challenge to our team. We intend to continue to work as hard as we can to secure the deportation of offenders after their sentences, as well as to transfer prisoners when we can during their sentences.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Has the Secretary of State any concerns that the provisions in the criminal injuries compensation scheme voted on by the House last night in terms of sex abuse victims aged between 13 and 15 are a dangerous and dubious legislative signal to be sent by this Parliament as its first legislative signal in the wake of the scandal concerning Jimmy Savile?
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
When innocent people can be framed on social media sites will the Government consider, with some urgency, looking at a certain part of the libel laws? Innocent people do not deserve to be named; they certainly do not deserve to be put through the grilling that certain people have faced. Would the Secretary of State and the Government look at that as a matter of urgency?
Chris Grayling
I am as concerned as anybody about what has taken place over the last two weeks. It is utterly wrong that anybody should have their name blackened inappropriately and falsely on any form of social media. Of course, the laws of libel apply equally to what is published on a Facebook or Twitter page as they do to what appears in printed form, so those who are damaged in that way have full legal redress to try and get proper justice done.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
What discussions are taking place between Ministers and officials in the Ministry of Justice and those in the Department for Work and Pensions in anticipation of the further burden that will be put on the tribunals service when the new personal independence payment comes in next year, because experience shows that the level of appeals resulting from benefit changes is very high?
Chris Grayling
We will continue to do everything we can to improve the process in both Departments. I am absolutely clear that we want to get the appeals process right, both in the tribunals service and in Jobcentre Plus, where we have introduced a mandatory reconsideration process. Ultimately, the reason we are doing all that is that there are large numbers of people out there who can return to work and make a better lot of their lives, which we want to help them to do, but unless we have a reassessment process, we will never find those people to deliver that help to.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does the prisons Minister realise that staff at HM Prison Northumberland, who have successfully merged two prisons and earned a positive report from the inspector, are sickened and infuriated that the public sector bid will not go through to the final market testing round because of promises from private sector providers that the Department might lack the capacity to verify?
Chris Grayling
I have a huge amount of sympathy for a family in that appalling situation. I have sat down and talked with many families who have lost loved ones as a result of violent crime and absolutely accept that our criminal justice system often does not seem responsive enough to their needs, does not explain enough to them what is happening and does not give them details of the process, even to the extent that an offender who has been convicted of a violent crime can be back on the streets without the victims knowing about it. That is why one of the first things I did as Secretary of State was appoint the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), as victims Minister so that there is someone in Government who is a champion for that cause and who will work with the next victims’ commissioner to ensure that we have a system that is as responsive as we can possibly make it.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
My understanding is that the Law Society and the Family Law Bar Association have come out in opposition to the fixing of a time limit for courts to conclude care cases, so will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to remind family lawyers, and indeed judges, that the implementation of a 26-week time limit remains a core policy objective and that lawyers should be preparing now to meet those targets?
Chris Grayling
I can assure my hon. Friend that we have made no changes to the plans. We always listen carefully to outside bodies, but no changes have been made and we are not considering making any.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
In view of the Qatada decision, has the Secretary of State considered requiring courts to take into account the likely cost to the public purse of their bail decisions, particularly in serious and high-risk cases?
Chris Grayling
I am happy to consider that matter further and write to the hon. Gentleman.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In view of what the Secretary of State has rightly said about the case of Abu Qatada, a prominent supporter of al-Qaeda, will he say a word or two about an opponent of al-Qaeda, namely the special forces sergeant who has been sentenced to an 18-month term of military detention for having kept a pistol that was presented to him in gratitude for his services by the Iraqi special forces? I realise that court martial procedures might be outside my right hon. Friend’s immediate area of responsibility, but will he reflect public concern over that very serious matter?
Chris Grayling
I am aware of the public concern. My hon. Friend will understand that I cannot comment about an individual case, and of course courts-martial fall under the remit of the Ministry of Defence. However, I would always hope that common sense will lie at the heart of every judicial decision in this country.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
Will the Minister give an indication of the cut-off date for claims under the criminal injuries compensation scheme? Victims of crime and their representatives need to know that date. Will it be Friday 23 November? Will it be Monday 26 November?
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Does the Lord Chancellor recall that in the reign of Henry VIII it was made high treason to take an appeal outside this kingdom? Has not the time come for this Parliament once more to legislate to prohibit appeals to foreign courts and to prohibit the judgments of foreign courts leading our judiciary?
Chris Grayling
I know that my hon. Friend has strong views on these matters. While I may not agree with every word he says, he will know that I have some sympathy with his frustration about international courts and the rulings that they make. That is why I am very clear that, in relation to the European Court of Human Rights, further reform is necessary.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
My constituent Jermaine Sheerin and his family are suffering a cycle of despair since he was convicted and received an indeterminate public protection sentence in 2007. He remains in prison, and sometimes in hospital, at risk of suicide. The Government have said that IPP sentences are wrong, so why are people who are currently serving them left in limbo?
Chris Grayling
It is difficult for me to comment on the individual case, because that is a matter for the probation authorities. We have put in place a package of longer sentences for more serious offenders. In relation to those who are still in prison on an indeterminate sentence, they will of course have to submit to the procedures that were law at the time. It is particularly important for us to know that they are safe to be released before they are released.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Stafford prison was built in 1794 and is one of the cheapest prisons in the country to run. Will my hon. Friend visit Stafford with builders of new prisons to see how it is done?