UK Submarine Fleet

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Westminster Hall

16:29

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the UK submarine fleet.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. The UK submarine fleet has a long and distinguished record, always at the heart of this nation’s deterrence and defence policy. It began in 1900 when the Royal Navy ordered its first five submarines—the Holland class. In 1901, six officers were recruited for the submarine service under the leadership of Reginald Bacon, the inspecting captain of submarines.

Since the early days of the submarine service, Scotland has been at its heart. In 1909, Dundee became home to the 7th Submarine Flotilla. By 1914, the submarine service consisted of 168 officers, 1,250 ratings and 62 submarines, and the fleet was moved to Rosyth in my constituency. Without offending any hon. Members from the great city of Dundee, Rosyth was obviously a much better choice, and it retains a strong role in the submarine story to this day.

The role of the submarine service in world war one should never be forgotten, with five of the 14 Victoria Crosses awarded to the Royal Navy during the conflict being awarded to submariners. Although the focus of naval warfare in world war two is often thought to be the battle of Atlantic, I was fascinated to learn from the excellent podcast “We Have Ways of Making You Talk” with Al Murray and James Holland of the vital role of British submarines in the Mediterranean. For example, HMS Upholder sank around 119,000 tons of enemy shipping. It was commanded for its entire life by Lieutenant Commander Malcolm Wanklyn, one of the most successful submarine commanders of the conflict, who received the Victoria Cross for attacking a well-defended convoy in May 1941.

The cold war saw the submarine fleet play a key part in deterrence and intelligence-gathering capability. HMS Swiftsure, a ship I will come back to later, became famous for her mission to acquire the acoustic signature of the Soviet aircraft carrier Kiev, with her periscope raised just 10 feet underneath the carrier’s hull. In the Falklands, HMS Conqueror became the first and, to this day, only British nuclear-powered submarine to engage an enemy ship with torpedoes. After the attacks on the US on 11 September, HMS Trafalgar and HMS Triumph played a vital role in hitting al-Qaeda targets in Afghanistan. Throughout, submarines have had extensive capability and roles assisting UK special forces in their vital missions.

Today, the Royal Navy operates a fleet of nine submarines, with a little over 1,100 submariners. Four are ballistic missile submarines of the Vanguard class that comprise the UK’s submarine-based independent nuclear deterrent, along with five nuclear-powered Astute class with the capability of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles at land-based targets and Spearfish torpedoes at maritime targets. The submarine fleet is spread across the UK. Faslane in Scotland is now the home base for the fleet; Devonport undertakes major refit, maintenance and decommissioning; and Barrow-in-Furness is the manufacturing location of both Astute and the next Dreadnought class of submarines.

At Rosyth, Babcock is undertaking work on the submarine dismantling programme—more on that later, as well—and is also a manufacturer of missile tubes for the Royal Navy and the US navy. QinetiQ, also in my constituency, houses world-class scientists, engineers and technicians, who support our men and women on the frontline by ensuring that Royal Navy ships and submarines remain at the cutting age of technology.

As I have outlined, the role of submarines in history has been varied. Indeed, the flexibility of the fleet is one of its strengths. The role of submarines is necessarily secret, but it is clear that the need for subsurface protection is both critical and increasing. In 2022, the Chief of the Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, said:

“There’s been a phenomenal increase in Russian submarine and underwater activity over the last 20 years.”

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

I commend my hon. Friend for raising this issue. He talks about the increase in Russian and foreign-state activity in the waters. The role of the Royal Navy and submarine fleet in protecting us from that is vast. I welcome the announcement by the Secretary of State for Defence last week that the joint expeditionary force will now monitor Russia’s shadow fleet in the Baltic. I hope that work extends to the north Atlantic, where there is a massive gap. Our frontline lies in our backyard, just beyond my constituency and my hon. Friend’s.

[Graeme Downie]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In doing research for this debate, I was fascinated to learn about the maritime range that exists off the west coast of Scotland, which is very close to his constituency. He is absolutely right that we need to ensure that our forces are defending our entire coastline, and places such as his constituency are vital to that, as are the whole of the west and north coasts of Scotland.

More recently, we have been aware of the ongoing undersea threat from Russia, most recently in the sabotaging of undersea cables in the Baltic sea. Submarines will clearly play a vital role in combating those efforts by our opponents. That is not to mention the critical role of the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent and maintaining the capability of the submarine force to support both maritime forces and those on land.

With that in mind, I turn to some of the issues faced by our submarine fleet and submariners, and the actions needed to ensure that they remain at the forefront of our armed forces now and in the future, while continuing to make a vital contribution to our economy and skills development.

I have relatives who have served in the Royal Navy, and I know from speaking to them how difficult the life of a submariner can be. Like other parts of the armed forces, the Royal Navy and the submarine service have struggled with both recruitment and retention. The basic salary for a submariner is £25,000, although it can rise to more than £37,000 with bonuses. None the less, the First Sea Lord has warned:

“We are effectively in a war for talent in this country”.

He also said that

“the submarine service…go through significant periods of real social isolation from the people they love…we must ensure the pressures that are inevitably felt by them are mitigated or eased or supported as best we can.”

Will the Minister say what is being done to support submariners and their families, and what more can be done, to ensure that we have an adequate force for the future?

I turn to future capabilities and the question of whether the submarine service has the right equipment to carry out its role. In its excellent January 2024 report “Ready for War”, the Defence Committee included evidence from Dr Rowan Allport of the Human Security Centre, who expressed this concern:

“Even once all seven Astutes are in service, it is questionable whether the force will be able to sustain their current tasks and the additional deployments to Australia and wider region from 2026 onwards.”

What assessment has the Minister made of that? Does she believe that the Astute fleet is able to carry out the role we intend it to have?

The independent deterrent is a vital service for the security of our country, and we must ensure that it is effective now and in the future. The last Conservative Government left a total deficit of £16.9 billion in the equipment plan for 2023 to 2033, of which the defence nuclear enterprise makes up nearly half, at £7.9 billion. In its report on the Ministry of Defence for the new Parliament, published in October last year, the National Audit Office found key risks in the defence nuclear enterprise relating to costs, skills, commercial relationships and delivery to schedule, and it said that those need to be

“carefully managed as DNE activity and spending increase.”

What steps is the Minister taking in the light of the NAO’s findings to ensure that the DNE is delivering effectively and efficiently?

Finally, as the Minister might have predicted—I have raised this in the House many times—I will talk about what progress the MOD is making on submarines that have been retired from service. Since 2023, the Babcock team at Rosyth in my constituency has been undertaking a demonstrator project to dismantle HMS Swiftsure—the ship I mentioned earlier that played such a vital role in the cold war—in a safe and secure way that protects the environment. That will lead to 90% of HMS Swiftsure being reused or recycled and the remainder being safely disposed of. That kind of work is not being done anywhere else in the world, and it currently employs more than 200 people in my constituency.

There are a total of 23 retired submarines—including HMS Swiftsure—currently being stored between Rosyth and Devonport that could be dismantled in a similar way. Given the knowledge and experience needed, along with the highly skilled nature of the roles, there is an opportunity to use the demonstrator project to establish Rosyth as a centre of excellence for submarine dismantling. From answers to written questions, we know two things regarding those 23 submarines: it costs £8.8 million a year to maintain the submarines at Rosyth and Devonport in their current condition, and the whole-life cost of the submarine dismantling project is £298 million.

I have two specific questions for the Minister about those figures. Can she assure me that the cost of almost £9 million a year to maintain those submarines where they are is not slowly reducing the £298 million budget? Will she work with me, Babcock, Fife council, Fife college and other local partners to help to turn Rosyth into the worldwide centre of excellence for submarine dismantling? When will she be in a position to announce the next stages of the submarine dismantling project? That announcement could be vital for the ongoing success of the defence industry in my constituency and its ability to drive local economic growth and provide secure, well-paying jobs for local people.

In closing, I put on record my thanks to the members of the submarine service, the Royal Navy and all our armed forces for the work they do every day to keep us safe. We are living in an increasingly volatile and unstable world and, sadly, it feels like our armed forces will be required to play an increased role in deterring our opponents and supporting our allies around the world in coming years. This House must be united in supporting our armed forces now and in the years to come.

16:40

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship for the second time this afternoon, Dr Murrison. There are slightly fewer people at this debate than the last one, but it is equally important. I commend the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) for his contribution. He is making a habit of picking subjects that all of us are interested in. I am particularly interested in this one.

Our submarine fleet is of major importance to the Royal Navy. It massively supports our defence role and is critically important for the future. Other countries are building up their fleets of ships, boats and submarines, and, in the interest of our national security, we in the United Kingdom should make sure that we match the demands set by others. It is a pleasure to discuss how we can further protect our security.

The cost of submarines in today’s age could be prohibitive to us in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland doing that as one country, but we could do it with other countries in NATO or with Australia, New Zealand, Japan and that alliance across Asia, which is important to have in place because China is incredibly ambitious. Dr Murrison, as your contributions in the Chamber confirm, you know better than most that China is a country with imperial ambitions and a lust for all the things in the world. It is almost like a sponge—whatever it can get, it wants, and it is trying to make that happen across the world.

Back home in Northern Ireland, we do not have our own dedicated submarine fleet, but we do have many people who serve in the UK fleet. We play a fantastic and important role in supporting the central UK fleet in its wider logistical, training and operational functions. I am particularly pleased to see the Minister in her place; I look forward to her response. We will hear shortly from the shadow Minister, who will bring to this debate knowledge from his former role.

Belfast, in particular, has a long history of shipbuilding and of supporting the Royal Navy. In my constituency of Strangford—I am going back a few years to when I was a wee boy in the ’60s and ’70s in Ballywalter, where we moved in 1959—the tradition was not necessarily the Army, but the Royal Navy. I remember that when I was a young boy, almost everybody who left Ballywalter to go into service went to the Royal Navy. That has changed greatly—fortunately or unfortunately, depending how one looks at it. Today, the tradition is the Army and, to a lesser degree, the Royal Air Force. Very rarely do we have anybody who joins the Royal Navy.

I found an exception when I went to one of my constituents’ houses on a Sunday two weeks ago. There was a wake on—we in Northern Ireland have a tradition of going to wakes when someone we know very well has passed away. The young fellow in the house was 19 years old and going into Royal Navy officer training at Dartmouth. He renewed my interest in this subject. He is a really special young boy from the village of Ballywalter who is going to be an officer in the Royal Navy. He has committed his life to service.

The Harland and Wolff shipyard can also play an important part. Lots of things have happened in the last few days in relation to Harland and Wolff; hopefully Navantia, which will take over the shipyard, will promote shipbuilding and submarine work. The shipyard was formerly key to the construction of naval vessels, and in the present day it is an important hub for maritime-related activities, alongside Belfast port.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar is rightly a keen supporter of the submarine dismantling programme, given the benefits it could bring to his constituents. I would expect any MP to do that for their constituents, and he does it well. The Minister has made it clear that, despite the fact that we have had nuclear submarines since the ’80s, we have never dismantled one. If she does not mind my saying so, if we are going to look at this matter constructively and seriously, we in Northern Ireland wish to play a part in that work, and I believe that we could. I am not suggesting that we should take the work away from the constituency of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar; I am just saying that there is a way of bringing us all together, and I think it is important that we do that.

The UK submarine programme faces some challenges with funding, construction delays and technological advancements. Our nuclear-powered submarine fleet is heavily dependent on nuclear propulsion technology, which requires high levels of maintenance and safety oversight. It is important that we are up to speed on that, but it is also important that we look forward to the future. Our defence mechanisms are extremely important, and in continuing to modernise our fleet, we will ensure that we have one of the most capable submarine forces across the world. That is the ambition of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar, and it is a good one to have. It is an ambition that this Government should have, and it is one that I fully support.

In conclusion, there are ways and means by which every nation in this United Kingdom can play its part in the advancement of our submarine fleet. I look to the Minister for reassurance that that will be taken into consideration in discussions of our fleet, and I look forward to hearing further updates on the dismantlement programme.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Andrew Murrison (in the Chair)]

I intend to call the Opposition spokesman at 5.8 pm. There are several Members seeking to catch my eye, so brevity is a virtue.

16:46

[Mr Paul Foster (South Ribble) (Lab)]

I will be brief, Dr Murrison. I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) on securing this important debate on what is without doubt one of the most—if not the most—critical elements of our nation’s defence. After all, our submarines carry our ballistic nuclear weapons, which are our continual at-sea deterrent.

I have a long-standing passionate interest in the submarine fleet, as they are built by my friends and family in my hometown of Barrow-in-Furness, albeit that is not my constituency. It is true that I could well have entered into a career in building them myself had I not decided to join the British Army instead in 1988. I wish to publicly commend the continued outstanding work of all the personnel within BAE Systems in Barrow in building what are quite possibly the most technically advanced submarines in service. Additionally, I commend our submariners who do a job that I never could—for extended periods, they keep us all safe from those who wish to cause us harm. I am also fully supportive of retaining our nuclear deterrent, as well as the replacement Dreadnought programme.

Looking at the current UK submarine fleet, I have some concerns on a number of issues, but I am aware that it would not be appropriate to raise them all, given the classified nature of operations. As I mentioned, I commend our submariners serving the Royal Navy in an exemplary manner, and I hope that the current recruitment and retention issues being experienced within the service can be addressed quickly. The time that those individuals spend continually at sea is certainly an issue that requires some focus, which I hope it is receiving. The substandard defence accommodation for our serving submariners and their families is also clearly an ongoing issue. The Secretary of State is dealing with that as a priority, and I would appreciate updates as to the progress that has been made.

The UK’s next-generation attack submarine, AUKUS, in collaboration with Australia and the United States, is a huge opportunity for not just the shipyard in Barrow but the entire nation. It is pleasing to see that global collaboration with two of our strongest allies, but it also provides a long-term strategic path, along with the Dreadnought programme, for the submarine service to grow from strength to strength and for the United Kingdom to continue to be a leading power in the sector.

[Catherine Atkinson (Derby North) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to grow the skills necessary to build the service and maintain our submarine fleet? Rolls-Royce Submarines in Derby is doubling the size of its site in preparation for AUKUS, and it has its own nuclear skills academy with 200 apprentices every year. Does my hon. Friend agree that investing in apprenticeships is essential to providing the skills that we need?

[Mr Foster]

I wholeheartedly agree. One of the challenges that we have faced in Barrow over a number of years is losing all the trades and the young people, because previous Governments did not invest in the submarine fleet. Barrow is a small town, but my hon. Friend is right that this is a massive opportunity not only for Derby and Barrow, but for the entire country. I am sure that no one present would disagree that the British Astute-class attack submarine is quite possibly the best there is globally.

I did say that I would be brief, so I will finish soon, but one area that requires much attention—I am aware that the Government are looking at it closely—is submarine decommissioning and dismantling. My understanding is that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar mentioned, 23 submarines await dismantlement at the Rosyth or Devonport dockyards, with no final solution yet agreed. Furthermore, four Vanguard-class submarines will leave service in the 2030s. I trust that the ongoing strategic defence review is looking closely at the issue.

To conclude, the UK submarine fleet delivers the cornerstone of our nation’s defence. Our Royal Navy submarine service should be commended for the unwavering, continued and extremely challenging service that it provides to this country.

16:50

[Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison.

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) on securing this debate. In his time in the House, he has been a real champion for our submarine fleet. It is an incredibly important subject, and I thank him for his work on it. I am pleased to support him in the debate today.

Some time ago, Admiral Lord West warned that the underfunding of our forces over a number of years has caused them to be “hollowed out”. General Lord Houghton made a similar comment to the Defence Committee in 2023, when he also referred to the “hollowing out” of our armed forces. That has been recognised, but I will also refer to the hollowing out of some of the industrial supply chains on which our armed forces and submarine fleet depend.

We approach the replacement of Vanguard with Dreadnought and, eventually, of Astute—we hope through the AUKUS programme—with a new SSN-AUKUS submarine, for which much of the work will be done in the UK. The design work has already been started by BAE Systems and, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson), by Rolls-Royce. This will be a colossal feat of British engineering.

As well as the design work, manufacturing and construction, however, we need to think about the supply chain. Filling the critical supply-chain gaps will be required to ensure that the economic benefit of our new submarine design is achieved. Steve Timms, managing director of BAE Systems Submarines, described this as “a once-in-a-generation opportunity” to boost education, infrastructure and technology. In his words:

“It will sustain thousands of jobs and generate billions of pounds of investment into the middle of the next decade, benefiting every region of the UK.”

We have heard about some of that today.

I will highlight one specific example of how our defence industrial strategy, which we anticipate in the spring, and our industrial strategy must come together to support that: the hull. That is the part of the submarine that keeps our submariners safe, and it is manufactured from steel plate. Currently, that steel plate will be made of slab steel in Scunthorpe, rolled at the Dalzell rolling mill in Motherwell and possibly sent to Clydebridge as well.

Those facilities have suffered some issues in recent years, such as the ongoing issue with the Jingye steel plant in Scunthorpe and whether it will continue, and that of the Liberty steelworks in Scotland. Securing those capabilities is important, because although the chemistry of the steel is available, the properties that keep the submariners safe—the strength, the toughness and the ballistic performance of the steel—is all down to the processing of the steel, including the heating and cooling, the chemistry and so on. That is down to the expertise of our steelworkers.

Today, I thank not only our submariners and the communities that support them, but our steelworkers, whose expertise keeps the submariners safe and, as a result, keeps our country safe. As we consider our defence and industrial capabilities, my call is to broaden the scope of our thinking to understand that our sovereign capability runs beyond our immediate defence needs. We must build the capacity, the economy of scale and the skills in our industrial base so that we continue to be a nation that proudly has not only a submarine deterrent, but the skills and capabilities to build and grow that over time.

16:54

[Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Murrison. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) for securing this debate and allowing the House to consider the UK submarine fleet. It also allows me to recognise the importance of the submarine fleet to the UK’s defence in the uncertain global circumstances that we face, and the fact that the Royal Navy’s entire submarine fleet is based at His Majesty’s naval base commonly referred to as Faslane.

Although Faslane is just beyond the boundary of my West Dunbartonshire constituency, it is a major source of employment to my constituents. HMNB Clyde is one of Scotland’s largest employers, employing over 6,000 military and civilian personnel directly. Indirectly, some estimates suggest that it supports over 10,000 jobs. It is therefore impossible to overestimate the importance of Faslane to the economy of my constituency, or its strategic importance to the UK submarine fleet.

The fleet currently has nine submarines, with a further two Astute-class attack submarines due to enter service by the end of 2026. Those nine are a combination of five conventionally armed nuclear-powered attack submarines and four ballistic missile submarines of the Vanguard class. In 2009, the previous Labour Government took the welcome decision to base the entire submarine fleet at HMNB Clyde, designating Faslane as their home and developing it as a submarine centre of excellence. I encourage this Government to recommit to investing the funding required to accommodate the evolving submarine fleet as the UK prepares for the Dreadnought class to enter service in the early 2030s. That would continue to safeguard our nation’s defences and secure the future of the Faslane base and thousands of jobs for my constituents for a generation.

It was my great privilege and honour to visit Faslane in November with the Scottish Affairs Committee. Our visit included the unforgettable experience of having tea inside an Astute-class submarine with the captain and crew members. We discussed the obvious challenges and concerns about manpower and the potential future skills shortages in the submarine service, which I encourage the Government to focus on. However, my lasting memory will be of the conditions and how confined it is inside a submarine, with six men to a tiny cabin who are often out at sea for anything up to six months, completely detached from family and loved ones. We ask so much of our vital service personnel and they sacrifice so much to keep us all safe. I thank them for everything they do to keep our country safe in these challenging and worrying times.

In conclusion, I commend the Government for their commitment to maintaining the UK’s deterrent beyond 2030, which recognises the benefit to employment and the economy of not only Faslane, but BAE Systems in Glasgow and Rolls-Royce. They are our main industrial partners in the submarine project, supporting tens of thousands of highly skilled jobs in West Dunbartonshire, Scotland and across the UK. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar again on securing this debate.

16:57

[Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Murrison. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) on securing this important debate.

Our national defence is made possible by the dedication of our people and the strength of our bases across the country, working together to keep the UK secure and our residents safe. The UK’s submarine fleet is a cornerstone of that strategy, ensuring national security. Historically, it has played a critical role in defending our nation. In these uncertain times, its importance cannot be overstated. I pay tribute to those brave serving personnel, veterans and their families across our armed forces whose sacrifices make our security possible. Their dedication deserves our utmost ongoing support and respect.

My constituency of South East Cornwall plays a crucial role in our nation’s defence. We have a proud military history, with active veterans associations across the area, including in towns such as Saltash, Liskeard and Looe. Torpoint, a wonderful town in my constituency, is home to HMS Raleigh. It has the third highest number of veterans of any community in the country, with over 14% of people having served. HMS Raleigh, as the largest Royal Navy training base in the south-west, equips recruits with the skills and knowledge needed to thrive throughout their careers in the Royal Navy.

Beyond Torpoint, many constituents work across the River Tamar in Plymouth at HMNB Devonport, which is the largest naval base in western Europe. For over 300 years, it has provided vital support for the Royal Navy and continues to play a critical role today. When the Minister gets to her feet, I would welcome her support and recognition of the importance of HMNB Devonport, and of the hard-working and skilled people who make its operations possible.

The armed forces are not only crucial for our national defence, but an essential link to local communities such as those in my area, providing high-quality jobs and a sense of community. The close social and economic ties between South East Cornwall and Plymouth mean that the success and sustainability of HMNB Devonport have a profound impact on the people I represent. I look forward to working with the Minister on this important topic and to hearing more details about the support for those whose contributions are invaluable to our national defence.

17:00

[Luke Akehurst (North Durham) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) for ensuring that this important debate takes place. I especially wanted to put on the record my support for the Government’s nuclear triple lock, which demonstrates our commitment to the strategic nuclear deterrent and the industries that support it. It is really important that countries that might threaten us understand the strong support there is in Parliament for the strategic nuclear deterrent and the role it plays in protecting our country.

The nuclear triple lock commits us to the construction of the four new Dreadnought submarines in Barrow-in-Furness, which supports a huge number of high-quality, high-status apprenticeships and jobs—42,000 in, I believe, 2,500 suppliers across the UK directly and indirectly. The supply chain benefits are felt in every corner of the country. Dreadnought will enable Britain to maintain the continuous at-sea deterrent 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, securing protection for the UK and for our NATO allies, and ensuring that countries that might strategically threaten us understand that, ultimately, we have the protection of the nuclear deterrent. The triple lock also commits us to the delivery of all future upgrades needed for the submarines to patrol the waters and keep our country safe.

The submarine fleet as a whole is a fundamental part of UK defence both militarily and industrially, and is about the integration between those two parts. We have to keep the line of production going in Barrow to produce successive generations of submarines to carry the nuclear deterrent, and in the interim there is the much-needed attack submarines—each generation of SSNs—that we produce in the same facility. The two are dovetailed together, which means that the UK stays at the leading edge of submarine design and manufacturing. I reiterate that this provides extremely high-quality and highly skilled jobs and ensures the economic viability of a corner of the country that would otherwise be economically isolated, quite apart from jobs that extend into other parts of the country, such as in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson).

I welcome the commitment to AUKUS and the opportunities it will bring. AUKUS will create new contract opportunities for hundreds of small and medium-sized firms and 7,000 new jobs in UK shipyards and across the UK supply chain, as well as reinforce our international partnerships with two extremely important allies. I repeat my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar. The debate has been a really important opportunity for a range of Members to reiterate their support for the UK’s submarine fleet.

17:03

[Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second time today, Dr Murrison. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) on securing this debate. I am disappointed that we did not somehow co-ordinate so that today the music that so often blares out on a Wednesday afternoon was “Yellow Submarine”. That song tells of the adventures of a submariner and reminds us to thank all those who serve as submariners in such confined conditions. It is so important that we recognise them, because the UK submarine fleet is critical to national security, economic development and defence of the rules-based international order.

As we have heard, the Royal Navy’s submarine fleet comprises nine vessels: five Astute-class nuclear-powered attack submarines and four Vanguard-class ballistic missile submarines. The fleet plays a central role in the UK’s defence strategy, providing a continuous at-sea deterrent and contributing to global security through intelligence, surveillance and undersea warfare capabilities, but the submarine fleet faces significant challenges. Issues such as manpower shortages, delays in maintenance and ageing infrastructure risk undermining the fleet’s operational readiness, and extended maintenance periods have raised concern about the Royal Navy’s ability to meet its current commitments as well as new obligations, such as deployments to Australia under the AUKUS agreement.

The UK submarine industry is critical not only for national defence but as a significant driver of economic growth and skills development. His Majesty’s Naval Base, Clyde, known as Faslane and home to the UK’s entire submarine fleet, has received over £1.8 billion in infrastructure investments since 2015, supporting over 6,000 military and civilian jobs, and making it one of Scotland’s largest employers. In addition, the construction of next-generation Dreadnought-class sub-surface ballistic nuclear submarines and the AUKUS submarine programme is projected to create more than 20,000 jobs across the UK, including, as has been mentioned, 17,000 new roles at Rolls-Royce in Derby. These projects foster expertise in engineering, nuclear propulsion and advanced manufacturing, ensuring that the UK remains at the forefront of global submarine technology. It is essential that we continue to invest in training and apprenticeships to attract young people to this critical sector. Our young people need to develop the skills necessary to carry out these critical projects.

Maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrent is a cornerstone of our national security policy. For over 50 years, the continuous at-sea deterrent has been an unbroken line of defence against nuclear threats. Although I believe that the end goal should be multilateral disarmament, the reality is that the global security environment, which includes threats from state and non-state actors, makes it imperative to retain a robust deterrent.

The AUKUS trilateral security agreement with Australia and the United States marks a significant step forward in international defence co-operation. As part of this partnership, the UK will provide Australia with nuclear-powered conventionally armed submarines based on our next-generation SSN-AUKUS design.

[Luke Akehurst]

Can the hon. Lady confirm something for me? Her remarks suggest that the Liberal Democrats now support the continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent, but I remember a review when Nick Clegg was the leader of the Liberal Democrats that suggested scrapping the continuous at-sea deterrent and using coastal-launched cruise missiles, or aircraft operating from aircraft carriers, which I thought was most dangerous. I would be very reassured if it is now the case that the Liberal Democrats support the continuous at-sea deterrent.

[Helen Maguire]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which gives me the opportunity to clarify that we do indeed support the at-sea deterrent, as was confirmed by a motion at conference recently; I cannot remember which conference it was, but it was a few conferences ago.

As I was saying, as part of the AUKUS partnership, the UK will provide Australia with nuclear-powered conventionally armed submarines based on our next-generation SSN-AUKUS design. This not only strengthens our shared security interests in the Indo-Pacific but reaffirms the UK’s role as a leading global defence partner. We must ensure that we continue to show our strong support for the AUKUS programme, particularly given potential policy shifts in the United States. Reports suggest that the Trump Administration might renegotiate the AUKUS agreement or deprioritise the commitments that are part of it.

In addition to their role in deterrence and warfare, submarines are critical for safeguarding undersea infrastructure, including the data cables that underpin global communications and commerce. The rise of seabed warfare, particularly by hostile states such as Russia and China, poses a serious threat to these assets, and a robust submarine fleet is essential to protect the UK’s interests in this domain.

Finally, we must tackle the long-standing issues in defence procurement. Delays and cost overruns in major programmes have hindered progress in building and maintaining our submarine fleet. A comprehensive industrial strategy is needed to provide a reliable pipeline of equipment procurement. Such a strategy would not only ensure the readiness of the Royal Navy but support the growth of the UK’s defence industry.

The UK submarine fleet is a vital component of our national security, our economy and our international partnerships. Although challenges remain, the benefits of continued investment in the sector are evident, and I urge the Government to prioritise the manpower, infrastructure and procurement reforms necessary to ensure that this critical capability is preserved and indeed enhanced for generations to come.

17:08

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure, to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. It is very appropriate that we do so for this debate, given that you are both a former ministerial colleague in the Ministry of Defence and a former surgeon commander in the Royal Navy and the Royal Naval Reserve.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) on securing this debate; it is important and timely, as well as incredibly interesting. Having been the Minister responsible for the nuclear portfolio and the chair of the Defence Nuclear Board, which is a great privilege in the Ministry of Defence, I know that one of the issues with the nuclear enterprise is that there are very few opportunities to talk about it publicly. I see this debate as an opportunity to join others—the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Douglas McAllister) put it very well—in thanking all those who serve on our submarines, particularly those who have maintained our continuous at-sea deterrent 24/7 since 1969. Theirs is an incredible achievement.

It is also an opportunity to thank all those involved in the whole defence nuclear enterprise, from the First Sea Lord, down to the apprentices who work in maintenance in Devonport and manufacturing in Barrow, along with contractors in Faslane and elsewhere. It is a huge national endeavour, which I am pleased all parties here now support.

As I said in the previous debate on missile defence, led by the hon. Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), there is a key point about the deterrent. In the strategic defence review, we must never underestimate the role of the nuclear deterrent. I do not think anyone here does, but there is perhaps a tendency to take it for granted and therefore talk about all the other incredibly important areas, such as missile defence, the Army, the Navy and so on. To me, nuclear is the most important part of our defence, because no matter what missile defence we have, that is not the reason the Russians will not launch at us. The reason is our ability to retaliate. That is the fundamental fact of our defence. I hope it never comes to it, but it is an extraordinary weapon which we must maintain, especially with the threats that we face today, so it is brilliant to hear so many colleagues showing their support for the nuclear enterprise.

Of course, it does have its challenges. Colleagues have mentioned people and personnel, but I think it is not just about those who serve in the Navy. When I was a Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), who was the civil nuclear Minister, and I set up the nuclear skills task force to really inculcate growth in skills in the whole supply chain, whether at AWE or Rolls-Royce, the manufacturer of the nuclear turbines.

There is also the issue of infrastructure. Speaking for the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) made a very good point: £1.8 billion has been invested in Faslane since 2015, so there has been significant investment in infrastructure, but when it comes to the nuclear enterprise, the need to invest in infrastructure is huge. It has been a significant factor in some of the issues we have experienced in terms of maintenance and so on. It is vital that the Government bring forward their promise to spend 2.5% of GDP on defence. The Minister and I both agree on that; we both had it in our manifestos. The Daily Mail splashed that the target will not be reached well into the 2030s. It would be interesting to hear what the Minister thinks about that speculation. I hope she will refute it 100%, and if not, perhaps she will tell us when we will reach 2.5% or when exactly we will be told the timeline for that.

Finally, on the point of the economic benefit, of course the nuclear deterrent is expensive, but as a percentage of Government spending it is tiny given the ultimate insurance it provides, and it brings a huge economic return. Some have spoken about the importance of AUKUS in terms of jobs and investment. It is going to be one of our biggest ever defence exports. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar mentioned Rosyth, which I believe is in his constituency, and the manufacture there by Babcock of the missile tubes. I had the privilege to visit that manufacturing operation. It is one of the best UK examples of extraordinarily skilful manufacturing. The ability to manufacture nuclear submarines, with all their technology, is quite extraordinary and we should be very proud of it. Militarily and economically, it is vital to our country. It is good to see that we are maintaining a consensus today in support of the nuclear enterprise and our submarine fleet.

17:13

[The Minister for Border Security and Asylum (Dame Angela Eagle)]

I echo the many comments that you have already heard about what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. I hope we are providing one of the most interesting of the debates that you have chaired, although having not heard the others, I cannot really have a view on it.

The Government is 100% committed to the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent, which keeps both the UK and our NATO allies safe from the most extreme threats. As the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) said, and as my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst) made a big point of setting out in his speech, we were elected with a commitment to deliver our triple lock guarantee of maintaining our continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent, constructing four new Dreadnought-class submarines at Barrow-in-Furness, and delivering all future upgrades needed for that programme. I am glad to hear the widespread consensus between all parties represented this Chamber today on that being the right way to go.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie), whose ears must be ringing at the moment with the gratitude from those around him for initiating the debate, which, as the hon. Member for South Suffolk said, is timely and important.

I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar for his ongoing interest in our submarine fleet and the disposal of decommissioned submarines—I am not surprised by that, given his constituency interests, but it still good to hear that he is so passionate about it. I am also grateful to those of his constituents who are among the skilled workers involved in that work at the Rosyth royal dockyard. I would like to echo comments by Members here today who have thanked both our submariners and our industrial workers, who contribute across the nations to this tremendously important enterprise. I am grateful to all of them, whether they serve on board a submarine, serve in our armed forces, or help to build or maintain the submarines, and for all the support work that goes into them.

I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Douglas McAllister), who talked about Faslane, my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Anna Gelderd) who talked about Devonport, and my hon. Friend the Member for Derby South—

[Catherine Atkinson]

Derby North.

[Maria Eagle]

I knew I would get it wrong. My hon. Friend also mentioned the efforts of her constituents in contributing to this national endeavour.

The backlog of 23 decommissioned submarines that have yet to be dismantled and recycled, which has built up over many years—seven are stored in Rosyth and 16 in Devonport—is a longstanding and ongoing issue that needs to be resolved. The previous Government set out on a path to resolve it, and we intend to continue and make sure that that work is done.

While hon. Members should be in no doubt that our submarine capabilities are the envy of the vast majority of countries in the world, the disposal backlog is one of the challenges across the portfolio of the Submarine Delivery Agency that it identified in its most recent annual report, resulting from historic underinvestment in capability and infrastructure over many years. As a Government, we are committed to defueling, dismantling and disposal of those submarines, and to meeting our responsibilities at every stage of the life-cycle of our fleet. Defueling and disposal are complex tasks, and Ministers, our Submarine Delivery Agency, and our entire defence nuclear enterprise take their responsibilities extremely seriously.

HMS Swiftsure was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar, and workers at Rosyth yard, as he knows very well, are in the process of entirely dismantling it, which is on track to be completed by the end of 2026. That will make HMS Swiftsure the first decommissioned Royal Navy nuclear submarine to be fully dismantled, with around 90% of its structure and components being reused or recycled. This is a demonstrator programme, designed to identify methods of dealing with the backlog of decommissioned submarines swiftly and safely—and, I might say, “surely”, given the name of the submarine, but that is a very corny joke. We intend to do that in a way that provides the best value for money for the taxpayer.

The responsible and innovative approach we are taking has a strong focus on sustainability. By extracting the reactor rather than storing the whole reactor compartment, we are recycling a greater proportion of each submarine and dramatically reducing the volume of radioactive material being placed in long-term storage. We are also ensuring that steel from decommissioned hulls will be able to be reused to support the manufacture of future UK-built submarines.

Workers at the Rosyth yard have also successfully and safely completed the initial stage of the dismantling process on four decommissioned submarines—which should give my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar some reassurance about future work that is going on. That will pave the way to accelerate the programme, having learned, from HMS Swiftsure, the best way of going about it, and should sustain high-skilled jobs in Rosyth as we deal with this legacy.

In parallel, we are evaluating our long-term options for future submarine disposal capability in the UK, using the lessons being learned from HMS Swiftsure, to enable us to dispose of future classes of submarine as they leave service, rather than having to park them at Devonport again and then wonder what to do with them thereafter. The submarine disposal capability project was established in 2022, as I am sure the hon. Member for South Suffolk and you, Dr Murrison, recall, to identify an enduring disposal capability for future submarines. The project is still in its concept phase, assessing all options for a future submarine disposal capability within the UK. An initial study has shown that there were various potential sites for disposal, including Rosyth. That work was investigative.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive response. I am very keen to see that we all realise the potential from the dismantling of the submarines, and I know the Minister is very keen on that, too. Is there any possibility that we in Northern Ireland could be part of that, perhaps through Harland & Wolff and others?

[Maria Eagle]

I am going to have to go back to my officials and interrogate them about what the possibilities are in Belfast. It is not a place where submarine work or nuclear work has previously been done. There will be criteria that any potential place would have to meet in order to do that, but I will certainly go back and challenge my officials about the extent to which Belfast—

[James Cartlidge]

The Minister makes an important point, because, as she knows, there is essentially a blockage in the infrastructure caused by having all these submarines awaiting dismantling. Will she confirm that she will be looking all over the country for potential places to add capacity? I am sure she agrees it could be immensely valuable economically to those areas that get involved.

[Maria Eagle]

I can, of course, confirm that. We are more than willing to look at any suggestions that any hon. Member might have.

I would like now to try to answer some of the specific questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar—it is his debate. He asked specifically about the well-being of submariners, and about what is being done and what more can be done to support them and their families. We are aware of the pressure put on submariners and their families during their long periods of absence. They are given extensive training prior to deployment to try and help to them prepare for life underwater and for life away from their families for such a long time. They have access while at sea to a weekly short message from their nominated loved one, which should help, although it is, of course, not quite like being in the same place at the same time.

When returning from deployment, submariners have access to the Royal Navy family and people support services, which can offer a range of specialist, tailored welfare services if they are needed. Recognising the impact on families, the Royal Navy has also worked to enhance support for families of those deployed, backed by service charities, so there is work there. We are conscious of the extra pressure that exists, and we take steps to try to make sure that there is support and help.

My hon. Friend also asked what assessment I can make of the Astute fleet, and whether it is able to carry out its intended role. The fleet is perfectly capable of carrying out all of the roles that are required of it. As my hon. Friend knows, there are two more Astutes that are not currently commissioned yet—HMS Agamemnon and Astute Boat 7. We will continue to build those, and we expect that the new class to replace Vanguard will also be fully built—certainly, the first boat is currently on target in terms of timing—so we are confident that the fleet can do what it is intended to do.

My hon. Friend also asked what steps have been taken in regards to the NAO findings to ensure that the defence nuclear enterprise is delivering effectively and efficiently. The organisations that make up the defence nuclear enterprise are working more closely than ever before, operating effectively as an integrated team to ensure the maintenance of the continuous at-sea deterrent posture. We are harnessing expertise and experience of multidisciplinary teams to deliver this mission and are committed to sustainment and renewal of the nuclear capabilities for as long as is required. The NAO’s work is tremendously valuable to us. It shines a very positive light and focuses minds in the Department and the defence nuclear enterprise on making sure that we do the best we can to get value for money and deliver on time and to budget.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar asked me about the budgets. He discerned from a parliamentary question the £9 million per year cost of maintaining submarines that are awaiting disposal, and he asks whether that reduces the £298 million budget for the major project portfolio data, which he got from a parliamentary answer. Obviously we do not release particular spending profiles for individual programmes, but I can tell him that the latest whole-life cost for the submarine dismantling project is £298 million, and that figure includes costs associated with dismantling work in Rosyth and maintenance costs for decommissioned submarines in Devonport.

My hon. Friend asks if I will work with Babcock, Fife council, Fife College and other local partners to help to turn Rosyth into a world-leading centre for submarine dismantling. He wants a quick announcement on the next stage of the programme. We are currently learning lessons from the dismantling of Swiftsure, which he already knows is on target to be completed by the end of next year. It will pave the way for future dismantling—my hon. Friend knows that there are already four submarines there and that the first stages of the process have already been undertaken for them. Once that work is done and we have finished with Swiftsure, we will look to accelerate the programme in Rosyth, drawing on the lessons we will have learned. That will sustain high-skilled jobs and support sustainability. My hon. Friend will see that we will have made more progress by then on the future of submarine disposal capability.

I am happy to work with my hon. Friend and his local council and other organisations—indeed, we already do. There is a partnership between the MOD, the Royal Navy, and local authorities and nearby universities and colleges called the Arrol Gibb Innovation Campus. Three projects that relate to Rosyth are currently earmarked there for funding. We are more than happy to try to assist in making sure that the local area and his constituents get best value for the money being spent in Rosyth. I hope that answers some of my hon. Friend’s questions.

17:28

[Graeme Downie]

I thank everyone who has participated in this debate, from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friends the Members for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson), for South Ribble (Mr Foster), for Stockton North (Chris McDonald), for West Dunbartonshire (Douglas McAllister), for South East Cornwall (Anna Gelderd) and for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) and the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge).

It has been welcome to hear a consensus. We talked about the need to ensure that we are supporting our submariners and forces across the Royal Navy and elsewhere. We must continue to ensure that the independent nuclear deterrent is maintained properly, while always recognising the value it has to our local economy. Thank you, Dr Murrison, for your efforts today.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the UK submarine fleet.

17:29

Sitting adjourned.