Support for Ukraine and Countering Threats from Russia
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey)
The House stands united today in our support for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. We showed that in the way we rose to support the Ukrainian ambassador before Prime Minister’s questions, and, for all the necessary challenge over policy that goes on in this place, we will show it again this afternoon, because fundamentally we in this House are agreed that President Putin’s ill-conceived enterprise in Ukraine must not and will not succeed.
But how we achieve that is not just through the sanctions we impose, the military aid we provide or the breadth of the cultural and diplomatic isolation we secure, as important as all those things are; it is through the beacon of hope we provide, and not only for the Ukrainian people but for the Russian people too. How they would love to have a day where the opposition choose the topics for debate, immediately after a session in which the legislature, without fear, can challenge the Head of Government. Indeed—perhaps no Government Minister has ever said this from the Dispatch Box before—how lucky we are to have an Opposition altogether.
We have grown complacent over that freedom. We do not value it as we should. It is no cliché to remind the House that freedom is not free and that no matter how much we complain about the imperfections of our own politics, people have fought and died so that we can argue in this place and in our national media over whatever we wish. Today in Ukraine, people are fearful that those days may soon be over for them. They know only too well that freedom is not free. In the lifetime of their most senior citizens, they have lost their freedom and recovered it twice already. It is no wonder that so many thousands of Ukrainian men and women are rallying to the flag to ensure they do not lose it again.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I put on record my thanks to the Defence Secretary and the Minister for their actions over the past few weeks. They have shown proper leadership on this. Will the Minister support comments from Gerry Connolly, who is the president of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly? He is arguing within NATO for a centre for democracy, to make exactly the arguments that the Minister is making, to reinforce among our populations why we have NATO and what it is defending.
James Heappey
I think I instinctively support the proposition. It is extraordinary—forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker; I know you were keen on brevity, but this is a tangent too interesting to miss, frankly—but when we came together after the second world war to bring NATO into being, it went without saying that the freedom, liberty and democracy we all enjoy was something we should collectively stand for, but in the 70 years or so that have passed since, we have forgotten what a luxury that is. We have forgotten how to speak proudly about freedom without being criticised as somehow trying to shut down the other side. There absolutely is a market for the west to relearn that we can disagree with each other ferociously and we can have polarised societies in which one side simply cannot abide the very existence of the argument of the other, yet we can still see the good in that and communicate it strongly to those who do not have that luxury.
In this debate today, we must also be clear on who our quarrel is with. When we talk of aggression, deceit and contempt for the international system, we must not talk about “Russia”; we must talk of Putin and the kleptocrats that surround him. When we talk of who must pay the price for this grotesque violation of international law, we must blame Putin, the Russian elites and the hubris of the Kremlin’s military leaders, but again, not the Russian people.
We want the Russian people to enjoy the freedom, democracy and security that we have been taking for granted. We want them to know that NATO and the west mean them no harm. We are a defensive alliance, and we were recasting ourselves for an altogether different future until President Putin annexed Crimea and challenged the sovereignty of so many other countries in eastern Europe and the Caucasus. When President Putin fails—and he eventually will—we look forward to a Euro-Atlantic where Russia and the rest of Europe exist as friends and neighbours. In the meantime, we stand our ground not to intimidate the Russian people, but to deter their President, who is a bully and has caused too many in our alliance to think that they could be next.
I would like to provide the House with a brief update on the situation in Ukraine. Russian forces have met strong resistance and are behind schedule on their intended plans. We recognise, unfortunately, that the cities of Melitopol and Kherson in the south of the country have fallen, but that brave resistance remains in both. Colleagues, those were both day one objectives for the Russian armed forces, and both only fell in recent days after fierce opposition. Everywhere else in the country, no other city or major town has fallen to the advancing invaders. As much as that should be a cause for celebration and hope, it is important we remain realistic about what is still to come. The harder the Ukrainians fight back, the harder Putin will order his military to push. Already, we have seen a horrific artillery and missile barrage on Kharkiv among other places. I am fearful for what is to come in Kyiv. As the Prime Minister has said today, and as the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) rightly noted, there is already clear evidence that in applying indiscriminate force in the way that he has, President Putin and his military leadership have already committed war crimes.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for the update. It is an absolutely tragic situation and we all stand in support of people in Ukraine. More than half a million residents have already left the country in a short time, and the UN estimates that the number could go up to 4 million, which would create the largest refugee crisis that Europe has witnessed in decades. Will the Government offer the UK as a place of sanctuary for people regardless of whether they have family here?
James Heappey
If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will come to the humanitarian aspect towards the end of my remarks.
Many hon. Members and our friends in the media have been increasingly concerned about the advancing column to the north of Kyiv. They are right to be—it is an enormous concentration of military firepower and it contains the stores needed for a battle in the capital. Let us be clear, however: no Russian military planner wanted to see that column move at such a glacial pace.
There have been cries for the column to be disrupted or destroyed, which is not something that NATO could ever do without entering the conflict, but the reason it is inching forwards so slowly is that it is being held up by blown bridges, obstacles, artillery fire and fierce attacks from the Ukrainians. That column may yet reach Kyiv—it will reach Kyiv—but it will be vastly depleted when it does and we have already given the Ukrainians the tools with which to attrit it further.
The real scandal is not that the column exists—we have known all along that Russia would need to encircle and take Kyiv—but for the Russian people. How on earth could their military leaders think that such a large concentration of military hardware on a single road, backed up in a traffic jam for tens of miles, could lead to anything other than an awful loss of Russian life? Like so many of President Putin’s plans, I am afraid that there is hubris, tactical naivety and a total disregard for the brave young Russian soldiers who he has sent into battle. We should take no satisfaction in their slaughter. The Ukrainians are doing what they must to defend their country and its capital city, but there will be an awful number of casualties because of such dire Russian military planning.
The UK stands with Ukraine in providing further defensive military, humanitarian and other assistance to the country. As I have told the House already, we have trained 22,000 members of the Ukrainian armed forces under Operation Orbital since 2015 and we were among the first European nations to send defensive weapons to the country with an initial tranche of 2,000 anti-tank defensive missiles.
It is an odd feeling, because those missiles are deadly weapons and I am afraid that, every time they succeed, they take young lives. We should reflect, however, that the UK has sent forward a weapon that has become almost a symbol of the defiance of the Ukrainian armed forces, so as brutal as the effect of that weapons system is, it is something for which the Ukrainian people will regard us favourably and be grateful for a very long time.
In the next hours and days, we will provide a further package of military support to Ukraine, including lethal aid in the form of defensive weapons and non-lethal aid such as body armour, medical supplies and other key equipment as requested by the Ukrainian Government. It is not possible to share with the House more of the detail at this sensitive point in operations, but we will do our best to share it with hon. Members after the event as much as we can.
Meanwhile, in response to the growing humanitarian crisis, we are putting more than 1,000 more British troops at readiness, some of whom have started to flow forwards into neighbouring countries. That complements the hundreds of millions of pounds already committed to building Ukrainian resilience and providing vital medical supplies. Last Friday night, the Defence Secretary organised a virtual donor conference on military aid for Ukraine, during which all 27 nations present agreed to provide the country with much-needed lethal aid and medical supplies.
In the midst of this catastrophe, it is important to recognise the importance of the unity that the international community has shown against Russian state aggression. The United Nations General Assembly has been holding an emergency special session, just the 11th in its history, with nation after nation speaking up in condemnation of President Putin and in favour of peace.
We have also seen an extraordinary change in the defence posture of several nations. Germany has increased its defence spending to more than 2% per cent of its GDP, and changed a decades-long policy of not providing lethal aid. Sweden and Finland—nations proud of their respective neutrality and non-alignment—have agreed to donate arms to Ukraine. Even Switzerland has been party to sanctions against Russia. This is a seismic shift in the Euro-Atlantic security situation. If Putin hoped for fracture, he has achieved consensus. Countries such as South Korea and Singapore have also in recent days unveiled sanctions on Russia, despite south-east Asia having largely avoided taking sides in the previous conflicts.
Yesterday, new financial legislation was laid in the House that will prevent the Russian state from raising debt in the UK and that will isolate all Russian companies, of which there are over 3 million, from accessing UK capital markets. Alongside the measures taken by other nations, these crippling economic sanctions are already having an effect. Russia’s central bank has more than doubled its key interest rate to 20%, while Moscow’s stock market remains closed for the third consecutive day in a bid to avoid major slumps. Ultimately, it will not be Putin who pays the price of the economic constrictions, but the Russian people, with soldiers dying, inflation rising and the country cut off from the outside world. As I said at the start of my remarks, we need to show the Russian people some hope for the way that things could be when President Putin eventually fails, as he surely will.
Dr Murrison
I am following the Minister’s remarks with a great deal of interest. In his very fine speech, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who spoke for the Opposition, mentioned China in his sixth point. I hope my hon. Friend will do so also, because there is one country that could turn this off tomorrow if it wished to, and that is China. What position have the UK Government taken on China? Although my enemy’s enemy is my friend, will he be wary and cautious about his dealings with China, given that China of course continues to commit human rights abuses in Xinjiang, potentially in Taiwan and in Hong Kong? While it is commendable that it abstained at the United Nations, we need to be very careful about how we position ourselves with respect to China in the weeks and months ahead.
James Heappey
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Asia and the Middle East will want to talk about China in her concluding remarks. Right now there is an opportunity to work with Beijing to bring about an outcome that is right for Euro-Atlantic security in the short term, but I do not think that that automatically means we close our eyes to our wider concerns about China and our competition with that country over the decades ahead.
Finally, I want to update the House on NATO defence and security activities. In addition to HMS Trent, HMS Diamond has now sailed for the eastern Mediterranean. We are doubling the number of UK troops in Estonia, with the Royal Tank Regiment and the Royal Welsh battlegroups now complete in Tapa. We have increased our fast air presence from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus, from where those jets are now engaged in NATO air policing activity over Poland and Romania.
In his excellent speech, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne asked two questions of the MOD about capability. The first was on cyber-resilience, and he will not be surprised to know, I hope, that there has been a series of Cobra meetings on homeland resilience and that the cyber-threat to the homeland has been an important part of those discussions. It is a capability that the UK has invested in through the National Cyber Security Centre. I would never go so far as to say we are well prepared because, frankly, we cannot know fully what is thrown at us, but the right discussions have been had and the right investments have been made, and I think what we have as a defensive cyber-capability is one of the best in the world.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked me a question about the shape and size of the Army, and he knows from his many clashes over the Dispatch Boxes with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that it is subject to some debate, but the Secretary of State, to his credit, has always said he is a threat-based policy maker. It may well be that we learn something new from what is going on in Ukraine at the moment, but my reflections in the immediate term, from the operational analysis I am seeing, is that precision deep fires and armed drones are doing exactly what we saw in Nagorno-Karabakh and Syria, on which we based the integrated review. For those in massed armour in a modern battlespace, that is a pretty dangerous and difficult place to be. We may yet see something different when we get into the close fight that will cause us to reconsider. Right now, however, the lessons we are learning from what is going on are exactly the same as those from Nagorno-Karabakh and northern Syria, and the IR was based on that operational analysis, with the Army rightly observing what it would call a deprioritisation of the close fight.
Chi Onwurah
I thank the Minister for giving way and for his update. He is right to emphasise the unanimity of the international consensus on the invasion of Ukraine and on sanctions. He may be aware of reports that Russian oil producers are not able to find purchasers for some of their oil production; however, there are purchasers and movements of oil shipments in the gulf of Finland. What is our position and the international position on Russian oil shipments and starving Russia of the foreign currency that delivers?
James Heappey
I do not feel entirely qualified to answer in the detail I would want, but my analysis of the geostrategic situation in eastern and southern Europe is that we certainly need to have our eyes wide open to who else beyond the obvious western European countries are customers for Russian oil and gas. We need to be having a discussion within the international community about how some very vulnerable countries, perversely including Ukraine, but also Serbia and others in the Balkans, are still drawing on Russian gas, and how we get them off that without causing a situation that completely cripples their economies. But I am somewhat out of lane and dare say the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy would be concerned to have heard me offer even those thoughts.
Chris Bryant
If I may take the Minister down another lane, I think Ministers accept that everybody in the House wants the Government to be able to move as fast as possible on sanctions. I just note for instance that Abramovich is now trying to sell his football club, and clearly lots of oligarchs are rapidly divesting themselves of things, including through auction houses, and I hope that Sotheby’s, Christie’s and others are taking action on that today. Can the Minister update the House on the measures the Government will take—perhaps this will be done later by the Minister winding up the debate—to speed up those sanctions? We are a long way short of what the US and the European Union have done; there may be legitimate reasons for that, but we do worry about it.
James Heappey
I do my best to inform myself as widely as I can. I suspect the Minister for Asia and the Middle East will be able to give a fuller reply to the hon. Gentleman later. I think there is a requirement to launch the widest and quickest set of sanctions we can in a way that is legally acceptable, but neither should we diminish the effect of the sanctions that have already been put in place thus far. I share the hon. Gentleman’s sentiment that we could and should do more, but let us not forget just how punitive what has been done is and the effect it is having.
I want to finish by talking about the humanitarian situation, which I am afraid risks becoming a catastrophe. Ukraine will keep fighting; so it should. Russia must stop. Europe—the world—must be ready to support that situation as it evolves because the fighting is going to get worse. We should explore, and we are exploring, what humanitarian corridors could look like, but they will not be easy and will need the support of both sides.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Minister is making an impassioned speech. The scenes in Ukraine are heartbreaking and it is my strong view that we should do everything we can to allow refugees to come here. The Prime Minister said in today’s Prime Minister’s questions that European Union countries were able to move more quickly and waive visa requirements because they were part of Schengen, but that is simply not the case. The Irish Government and Ireland are not part of Schengen—as we should all know by now after the long discussions around Brexit, they are part of the common travel area—but Ireland was able to do it; why are this Government not waiving visa requirements for refugees fleeing Ukraine?
James Heappey
Again, the right of family members to come here has already been offered, and it is for 100,000 people, as I understand it, which is extraordinarily generous. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point and his concern, and I know that many hon. Members see this as an increasingly totemic issue.
James Heappey
I will take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but I do want to conclude.
Mr Carmichael
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but is this not a moment to reflect that if the Nationality and Borders Bill, which is currently in the other place, were to pass with clause 11 as part of it, any Ukrainian coming here to seek refuge who passed through another country to get here would be criminalised and treated as a second-rate refugee? Does that not make him feel a little uneasy? Is this not a moment for the Government to reconsider that proposal?
James Heappey
The right hon. Gentleman, who is a skilled parliamentarian, asks his question in a way that makes it uncomfortable to hear. However, the reality is that the criminalisation of those illegal routes—as they will be—is an important deterrent against the illegal criminal gangs who so viciously and exploitatively bring people across the channel at huge expense and in huge danger. Actually, legislation that might change that situation, provided that it is accompanied with safe and legal routes, and I have every confidence that it will be—[Interruption.] Well, I beg to differ. I do not share his analysis of the Bill or its effect and the need for it.
James Heappey
I really want to make progress. Madam Deputy Speaker has already been generous with Front-Bench speakers, and many Back-Bench colleagues want to speak.
This is an important point, because the humanitarian crisis will get worse.
James Heappey
I am sorry; I will not give way any further. The international community needs to consider what the options could be for humanitarian corridors and, potentially, safe havens. However, that will be challenging.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. Let us make this perfectly clear. If the Minister gives way now, some of the hon. Lady’s colleagues will not get to speak in the debate at all. Actions have consequences everywhere.
James Heappey
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
That will not be easy, and we should not get our hopes up, because both sides in the conflict will need to agree. However, we should want to explore that urgently.
I believe passionately that Ukrainians do not want to leave their country. As the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) said in his speech, they do not want to be refugees. Therefore, once they have reached the west of their country—or, in extremis, crossed the border immediately from it—our mission should be about making them as comfortable as possible there so that they can go home as quickly as they want to, because they are patriots who want to be Ukrainians living in Ukraine.
I am afraid that this will get much worse before it gets any better—that is what keeps me awake at night. We must work out how we can alleviate the humanitarian challenge and the sheer misery of the millions of people who find themselves living in cities that are under siege without risking escalation that could make this world war three.
There is cause for optimism as the Ukrainians are fighting heroically, but we must brace ourselves, as the Ukrainian people are, for something much worse. Putin could stop this now if he wanted to. We must all continue to insist that he does and that Ukrainian territorial sovereignty is restored completely.
The Minister for Asia and the Middle East (Amanda Milling)
Let me start by thanking colleagues from across the House for this debate and the Opposition for tabling it, because one thing it has demonstrated is our united support together, and with other people around the world, for the people of Ukraine. I will make a few points about that in a moment.
We are united in our horror and condemnation of the attacks in Ukraine. During Prime Minister’s questions, the House, a full House, applauded the Ukrainian ambassador. I know that there are no party lines on this in terms of how united we are in our support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and in our condemnation of Putin’s unprovoked attack. I thank Members from across the House for their contributions and passionate speeches. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces for his opening remarks. I join him in paying tribute to the courage and resilience of Ukraine’s armed forces. As we speak, Russia continues with its illegal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary outlined to the Human Rights Council yesterday:
“The consequences of Vladimir Putin’s unjustified aggression are horrific…Putin is responsible for civilian casualties and over 500,000 people fleeing—with the numbers still rising fast…He is violating international law, including the UN Charter and multiple commitments to peace and security…The UK stands united in condemning Russia’s reprehensible behaviour.”
Last week, we joined more than 40 countries at the OSCE in condemning Putin’s aggression. The Council of Europe also voted to suspend Russia. May I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) for everything that he did to see Russia suspended and for how he spoke so passionately and strongly on this matter?
At the UN, we joined more than 80 members to back a resolution condemning Russian aggression. Meanwhile, Russia stood alone in opposing it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) mentioned during the debate, the UN General Assembly has just passed a resolution condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine by an overwhelming majority. That demonstrates the international strength of feeling on condemning this invasion.
I also want to pick up on a point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) on China. We recognise that Russia and China are neighbours and have an important relationship, but Russia is not the same as China, and China claims a policy of non-interference. As fellow permanent members of the Security Council, the UK and China have important diplomatic roles to play in the coming days and weeks. The world will be looking at what China chooses to say and do. China needs to be clear that it does not support Russia’s action in any way.
We have joined forces with the US, the G7, the EU and other partners to take decisive steps through hard-hitting sanctions. These consequences will only increase in breadth and severity as the conflict goes on. I am proud to represent a nation that is so strongly and publicly supporting the people of Ukraine and standing up to the barbaric behaviour of Russia. With our allies and partners, the UK is supporting Ukraine and our partners in the Western Balkans, and we are already providing a range of economic, humanitarian and defensive military assistance.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) and other Members mentioned, today the Disasters Emergency Committee launched its Ukrainian humanitarian appeal. We are matching the first £20 million donated to this appeal—our largest ever aid-match contribution. We have pledged £220 million of aid, which includes £120 million of humanitarian assistance, providing Ukrainians with access to the basic necessities and vital medical supplies.
We call on Russia for unhindered humanitarian access into Ukraine and safe passage out for civilians. This funding will help agencies respond to the deteriorating humanitarian situation, creating a lifeline for Ukrainians with access to basic necessities. We have deployed humanitarian experts to the region to bolster our support to countries receiving those who are fleeing from violence. We are ramping up support for trade in priority industries, such as technology and green energy, to £3.5 billion, including £1.7 billion to boost Ukraine’s naval capability.
Danny Kruger
May I endorse the point that my hon. Friend made about the contribution of the British Government to the Disasters Emergency Committee? It is an absolutely tremendous and unprecedented thing that is being done, but, of course, it will only work if it is matched by the generosity of the British public. Will she make that appeal on behalf of the House and urge people to support the Ukrainian refugees financially rather than by sending goods?
Amanda Milling
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and he is absolutely right. Hon. Members have talked about their constituents who are desperate to be able to support Ukrainians, and this appeal is the way to do so. I urge people to look at the DEC’s website to see how they can offer support by donating to the appeal.
The UK and our international partners stand united in condemning the Russian Government. Russia’s assault on Ukraine is an unprovoked, premeditated and barbaric attack on a sovereign democratic state.
Alicia Kearns
I know my right hon. Friend is trying to make progress, but before she moves on from humanitarian aid I want to press her on the point I made in my speech. Our sanctions regime is so important, but at the moment it is preventing humanitarian organisations from doing the deals they need to do, even with sanctioned entities, to get the aid to those who need it. Will she kindly commit to taking that issue away and look at whether we need to introduce the same legislation as the Americans have and that the UK backed at the UN Security Council in December for Afghanistan, to overcome this exact problem?
Amanda Milling
I will come on to sanctions, but we must ensure that the humanitarian assistance gets to those who need it, and I will happily follow up with my hon. Friend afterwards.
Putin has chosen a path of wanton bloodshed and destruction, and he must pay a price for the innocent lives lost. The events of the past few days have shown the world that the Kremlin was never serious about engaging in diplomacy; it was focused on deceit and blinded by territorial ambitions. A number of hon. Members from all parts of the House have asked about the role of the International Criminal Court. We agree that it is vital that perpetrators of war crimes are held to account, and we welcome the statement by the ICC prosecutor that he intends to open an investigation into the situation in Ukraine.
Duncan Baker
In my speech, I mentioned the enormous outpouring around the community in all our constituencies of people who want to help with the refugee crisis. Can the Minister just say that we will accelerate every single plan we have to ensure that we can sponsor, support and help refugees who are trying to flee the crisis?
Amanda Milling
As I noted earlier, in terms of humanitarian assistance there was an announcement today on the campaign that the Disasters Emergency Committee is running. I must make progress, because we are going to run out of time.
A number of colleagues mentioned sanctions. We have been at the forefront of the international response, and I reassure colleagues that we have been acting in concert with our allies. Our measures will deliver a devastating blow, as we have already seen, to Russia’s economy and military for years to come. Our sanctions combine our partners’ strongest measures and have already had an impact on the Russian state.
Over the past week, we have announced punishing new sanctions that will strike at the heart of Putin’s inner circle and the financial institutions and military-industrial machine that prop up his regime. I could go into detail on the number of designations and how many businesses and individuals will be affected, and the statutory instruments that were announced and have entered into force through an affirmative motion. The two motions approved on Tuesday 1 March brought into force new financial measures covering sovereign debt, sterling clearing and securities, as well as new trade measures.
I could list a number of other measures in this space, but they are only the beginning. We have a rolling programme that will continue to ratchet up the pressure on Russia. We will designate additional companies and members of the elite over the coming weeks and months. The sanctions will strike at the members of Putin’s inner circle, wherever in the world they are based.
In conclusion, the Russian Government have lied to the world and to their own people. It is vital for the safety of every nation that Putin’s venture should ultimately fail and be seen to fail.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House condemns Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine; stands in solidarity with Ukrainians in their resistance to Russia’s invasion of their sovereign state; supports the UK providing further defensive military, humanitarian and other assistance to Ukraine; recognises the importance of international unity against Russian state aggression; and calls on the Government to ensure that the United Kingdom’s NATO defence and security obligations are fulfilled to counter the threats from Russia.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
This excellent debate and, at the start of our proceedings, the outpouring of love and solidarity for the Ukrainian ambassador, who was present, with that long standing ovation that the Minister mentioned—unprecedented in my 30 years as an MP—clearly demonstrate in a graphic way the 100% support that this House of Commons has for the brave people of Ukraine. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]