Steel Industry

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The House of Commons Library has produced a paper on European state aid. It states clearly that Germany, for example, gives more than twice the amount of state aid that is provided in this country. Moreover, a raft of indirect state aids are given in Germany, but this Government have decided not to do that in this country.

[Ms Eagle]

My hon. Friend’s comments speak for themselves.

Employment in Wales

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

The hon. Gentleman totally misrepresents me. I am not talking about those small business people who want to go into business or about entrepreneurs, whom I applaud; I am talking about people who were in secure employment but were told, “We’re sacking you now—you can go and get a job in the private sector, which will take away all your rights.” They have been forced into self-employment. Those are the self-employed whom I am talking about. I pay tribute to the Federation of Small Businesses, especially the FSB in north Wales, and I will come on to the CBI in a moment.

The net effect of all that uncertainty, low pay and zero-hours contracts in my constituency is that, according to the citizens advice bureaux, the Vale of Clwyd has the highest level of insolvencies in the whole UK and the highest percentage of people seeking debt advice through the CAB. That is the legacy of five years of Tory rule.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has referred to parts of his constituency that are desperately poor; as he knows, parts of my constituency are also very poor. Does he agree that what has really made the difference in pushing down living standards for many people has been the extremely harsh and unfair so-called welfare reforms?

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[Chris Ruane]

No, the hon. Gentleman has had one bite of the cherry.

The cuts that English local authorities have experienced are more than decimation. The same research says that the Welsh Government have largely protected Welsh local authorities from those cuts over the past five years. According to that research, in my own county of Denbighshire there has been an increase in funding of 3% from the Labour Welsh Government. That protection has now ceased, however, as the Welsh Government feel the full impact of a £1.7 billion loss to their budget because of the Tories here in Westminster.

[Wayne David]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation is bad now, but if, God forbid, the Conservative party should win a majority at the next election, things will be a lot worse? We will be back to 1930s levels of public expenditure.

[Chris Ruane]

My hon. Friend predicts the next part of my speech.

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[Simon Hart]

I am glad that I took that intervention because the hon. Gentleman completely misrepresents my view. No Conservative Member and no colleague in Plaid Cymru or in the Liberal Democrat party—indeed, no politician, candidate or Government—has a monopoly on brilliant ideas, wisdom or compassion. It is crazy to suggest otherwise. I am well aware that there are significant difficulties in my own constituency, which is why I have organised five jobs fairs since I have been a Member. That is why I spend most of my working day trying to resolve such hardships and to point people in the right direction on future job prospects. That is why I deal every day, as we all do, with difficulties when things go wrong.

It is wrong to suggest that we live in a bubble of complacency and that the future is gloomy. The distinction that I am trying to make is that there are plenty of success stories in Wales of which we should be proud. Plenty of indicators suggest that we are pointing in the right direction. I absolutely accept that we are halfway along the road to success. Nobody is suggesting that we have got there and nobody is suggesting that it will not be a hard crawl from here to our destination. What we are suggesting is that to alter the course now would damage the prospects of not only people who are working their way back into employment, but those who already have a secure job.

[Wayne David]

Is the hon. Gentleman happy that so many of his constituents who have recently found employment are on extremely low wages?

[Simon Hart]

I find that question extraordinary. It is like asking whether I am happy with an outbreak of incurable disease. Of course I am not.

[Wayne David]

So what is the hon. Gentleman going to do about it?

[Simon Hart]

What I am trying to do is to be part of an economic policy that creates greater opportunity, higher wages and better long-term prospects for families and individuals in my area. That is what I am driving towards. It is wrong to suggest that I could sit back and feel content if even a single person in my constituency was unemployed for avoidable reasons. I would be upset and disappointed, and I would strive to help them back into employment. The same is true of anybody on an unsustainable wage. The point I am trying to make is that the direction of travel—I hate that expression, so please forgive me for using it—is correct.

I could point the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd to numerous people in my constituency who have been able to make the transition from the gloomy position that he describes into a more prosperous world with better pay, better conditions and a better job. That is a consequence of confidence among UK, European and global companies, which are investing in our area, and it might not have happened under a different form of economic leadership. That is the point that I am trying to make. Of course we are not there yet—we are some years away—but I think we are on the right path to that kind of success story, which was lacking from the hon. Gentleman’s speech.

Government Policies (Wales)

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

I will make a little more progress and then give way.

However, devolution does not show that, of itself, even with a Labour Government in Wales, it can fully inoculate Wales against the virus of Tory economics. Unfortunately, the “trickle-down” belief of Tory economics that wealth will be spread by favouring the people who already have the most and punishing those with the least is demonstrably leading to lower living standards in Wales. In a moment, I will enumerate some of the symptoms of that virus that we can see right across Wales.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend knows that today the Welsh Government have published their latest index of multiple deprivation, which shows that Lansbury Park estate in Caerphilly is now the most deprived community in Wales. Does he share my anger at that fact? Does he agree that nothing shows more clearly the real impact of central Government policies on poor communities in the south Wales valleys?

[Owen Smith]

I do share my hon. Friend’s anger, and I will express it here today. I also express my anger that Government Front Benchers laugh when we hear of the scale of the poverty that is still being visited on people right across the country.

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[Stephen Crabb]

Absolutely, I welcome the fall in unemployment in my hon. Friend’s constituency. During the shadow Secretary of State’s speech, I was looking through Labour Members’ constituencies. Many of them saw increases of 60%, 70% and 80% in unemployment under the last Labour Government, whereas unemployment in those constituencies is now falling.

[Wayne David]

What would the Secretary of State say to my constituents in Lansbury Park, who, because of the policies of his Government, now find themselves living in the poorest ward in Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

I have been to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency: I had a fruitful set of meetings with people working at the coal face in terms of supporting people in long-term unemployment and helping them back into work. I realise that there are challenges in the Welsh economy and that sections of Welsh society are still not seeing the full benefits of economic recovery, which is why there is no complacency on the Government Benches, but I must point out that his local authority is working very well with the Department for Work and Pensions, in preparing for the roll-out of universal credit, which will make a difference to the lives of people in his constituency.

[Jonathan Evans]

Is not the answer to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) that the Lansbury Park estate did not become poor in the last four years, and that throughout all the years he has represented the area, it has been one of the poorest in Wales? It is only since the coalition came to office that unemployment has started falling, whereas when Labour was in office, it went upwards.

[Wayne David]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Today, the Welsh Government have published figures showing that for the first time Lansbury Park is now the poorest ward in Wales. I ask the hon. Gentleman to retract his remark.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

That was not a point of order, but I am certain that the hon. Gentleman has clarified his position.

Welfare Reform (Welsh Valleys)

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner.

As a Member of Parliament representing a seat in the south Wales valleys, I am only too aware of the impact on my constituents of the Government’s changes to welfare over the past few years. I have constituents who have had to wait nine months for their personal independence payment applications to be processed or who have had zero points allocated by Atos in their work capability assessments, only to win their cases on appeal and so achieve more than 15 points. I have had numerous cases of people who have experienced unfairness because of the bedroom tax. Many constituents who have come to my surgery are genuinely struggling to make ends meet. Such individuals are close to the point of despair because of the Government’s welfare changes.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and thank him for his generosity in giving way. May I draw his attention to a report that came out earlier this year, commissioned by the Government themselves, on the rise in food aid and food banks in the UK? Three causal factors were identified, two of which were the cumulative effect of benefit changes and the delays in the payment of those benefits, putting working people in the food banks.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes his point extremely well and reinforces my points about the everyday hardship experienced by so many of our people—our poor people, in particular. All of us who represent valley seats are well aware of such examples, and many others.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing an important debate on a piece of work that focuses on the valleys, but is also important for constituencies such as mine. Does he agree that the impacts that the report talks about are keenly felt by women in particular? Some reports estimate that 74% of savings from benefit changes come directly from women’s pockets.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes her point well. I am aware of an excellent paper prepared by Chwarae Teg that highlights how women are all too often at the sharp end of benefit changes in Wales and elsewhere.

I have been aware of all the changes on an individual basis, as they have affected my constituents, but until recently I was not fully aware of the impact that the reforms are having on the south Wales valleys as a whole.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not simply the individuals who feel the effect, but the small businesses in the area and in our town centres, such as in Llanelli? More and more money is being sucked out of the community. It would be far better to tax the rich, rather than to penalise the poor, because the money of the poor goes straight back into the community.

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[Wayne David]

Yes. My hon. Friend touches on the central point of my speech. The welfare changes are having a detrimental effect not simply on individuals, but on the community as a whole, in a variety of different ways.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

On that theme, Sheffield Hallam university has just produced an important report on the welfare changes of the previous Labour Government and the coalition Government, indicating that more than £1 billion has been taken out of the Welsh economy as a result. The biggest single hit was the changes to incapacity benefit, which was a reform of his previous Labour Government.

[Wayne David]

The hon. Gentleman has led me on neatly to my next point and the central part of my contribution this afternoon. That is to talk not about the work of the previous Labour Government—yes, we began the process of welfare change, but we did it fairly—but about what we have seen since: a completely unfair introduction of welfare reform, or so-called welfare reform, that, more accurately, has been a way of making crude cuts affecting some of the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

As the hon. Gentleman said, however, an excellent report was published by the Industrial Communities Alliance in Wales. It was written by Christina Beatty and Steve Fothergill of the Centre For Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield Hallam university. The report sets out in well researched detail the scale of the Government’s cuts on one of the most deprived areas of the United Kingdom and quantifies in great detail the impact that those cuts are having on the economy of the south Wales valleys.

It is important to remember that not all the cuts have yet been implemented but, when they are, the valleys will lose around £430 million a year. That is an average of £650 per adult of working age. Those are massive figures, especially when we realise that the impact on the valleys is far greater than it is on virtually any other part of the United Kingdom. Without taking into account the household benefit cap and the bedroom tax, the overall financial loss for the United Kingdom as a whole is £475 per working-age adult—for the south-east of England, £370.

The contrast with the valleys is sharpest in parts of southern England outside London. In parts of Surrey, Berkshire, Hampshire, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire, the financial loss per adult of working age is estimated to be little more than a third of the loss for the people living in the south Wales valleys. The Government’s welfare cuts are therefore accentuating the already huge differences between well off and poor areas, and are having a hugely negative impact on the local economy across the old south Wales coalfields from Torfaen to Ammanford.

If that were not bad enough, Beatty and Fothergill have dug down to ward level and shown that the financial loss per adult in the poorest parts of the valleys is truly horrific. By looking at official Government data, they have shown that in Maerdy in the Rhondda the overall financial loss per adult is £1,050 per year and in Pen-y-waun, near Aberdare, it is £1,040 per year. In my own constituency, the loss is £820 in Bargoed and £790 in St James. In St James, for example, which includes some relatively well off areas, the loss is greatest at sub-ward level, among some of the poorest people in Caerphilly. If that is true in my constituency, I am sure that it is also true elsewhere.

The huge loss of income has not only a hugely negative effect on the individuals and families concerned, but a massive effect on the local economy—a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). Over time, Beatty and Fothergill estimate that some 3,000 jobs in consumer services can be expected to be lost as a result of the Government’s welfare policies. The Government’s argument, of course, is that reforming welfare in such a way is increasing the incentive for people to take up employment—I am sure we will hear that from the Minister—but the trouble is that in many parts of the valleys the local economy is incredibly weak and there is little sign of significant growth in quality job opportunities. What growth we do see tends to be in jobs that are part time, have zero-hour contracts attached to them and are very low paid.

There is another factor. Beatty and Fothergill have pointed out that the valleys have an archetypal “weak local economy” with a large pool of people who are unemployed. The consequence is that bringing into the labour market more people who have been on long-term disablement benefits does not necessarily lead to those people getting jobs. Men and women with health problems or disabilities, with few formal qualifications and little if any skilled work experience, and often in the latter phase of their working lives, are rarely employers’ first choice.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I am sure my hon. Friend will agree with me that the situation of disabled people in the valleys is particularly bad. We have the highest proportion of disabled people compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. Those people will be especially badly hit by the continuing cuts in welfare. Disability attendance allowance and housing benefit form part of a list of things that impact on them. Does he believe that particular attention needs to be paid to the needs of the disabled in the south Wales valleys?

[Wayne David]

Yes, indeed, that is absolutely correct. My right hon. Friend makes her point well. To begin with, we have a larger proportion of people who suffer from disabilities than many other parts of the United Kingdom, because of the industrial past of the south Wales valleys. Such people are being especially hard hit by the Government’s policies.

Many of the people who are losing benefits are not securing employment—certainly not of the reasonably well paid variety. They are suffering a huge cut in their income levels and their standard of living. The report by Beatty and Fothergill points to the resources coming to the valleys from the European Union and compares those to the financial loss from welfare reform. We all know that as west Wales and the valleys were originally designated an objective 1 area, and then a convergence area, they received significant European regional development fund and European social fund moneys. From 2014 to 2020, we will see additional EU aid amounting to £1.6 billion. That funding will be worth around £120 million per year to the valleys, but, as I said earlier, the valleys’ loss through welfare reform is estimated at £430 million a year. In other words, the welfare cuts will remove almost four times as much money as the valleys receive in EU regional aid.

Let us not forget that the ongoing welfare cuts will be running in parallel with the harshest cuts in local government services that we have ever seen. Having been shielded by the Welsh Government until now, local government in the valleys is being forced to introduce unprecedented cuts in expenditure, which will inevitably hit hard those who rely most on local authority services: the sick, the disabled, women, the old, the young and the disadvantaged. Not only will services be hit, but we are likely to see jobs being lost and local economies suffering through the knock-on effects of the contraction of local government. Although the Beatty-Fothergill report does not examine what those cuts will mean, there is absolutely no doubt that they can only make a bad situation very much worse.

The Beatty-Fothergill report demonstrates that Wales is being hit harder by welfare reform than almost any other part of the United Kingdom, and that the valleys are being hit “exceptionally hard”. It concludes:

“The South Wales Valleys, long afflicted by the loss of jobs in coal, steel and manufacturing, have been the target of many regeneration efforts, some more successful than others. Welfare reform unequivocally works in the opposite direction: the poor will become poorer, and the poorest areas will fall further behind.”

Nothing highlights more clearly the need for a Labour Government in Westminster after next year’s general election. That Government need to pursue—I believe they will—policies that have at their heart the need to regenerate the economy of the south Wales valleys. We need policies that will provide well paid jobs, build on the excellent work of the Welsh Government’s jobs growth fund and harness creativity and drive so that entrepreneurship becomes the hallmark of the valleys.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I voted against the Welfare Reform Bill on Second Reading, and was proud to do so—reading the report, I feel vindicated. Will the hon. Gentleman outline which measures introduced by the current Government will be repealed by the next Labour Government, if there is one?

[Wayne David]

I am happy to say that top of our list will be the bedroom tax. We have made an unequivocal commitment to getting rid of that. Of course there will be welfare reform, but it will be genuine reform. The system needs to be modernised, but we will not place an undue burden on the poor and those who are least able to suffer cuts. Frankly, we will turn on its head a Government policy that is designed to make the poor poorer and the rich richer. We will have a Labour Government who will stand four-square behind ordinary people. Such a Government, armed with the policies that I outlined, will work in genuine partnership with the Welsh Government. I am confident that will happen and that a new and positive chapter will begin for the south Wales valleys.

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[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Alun Cairns]

In a moment—with the greatest of respect, I would like to make an element of progress, certainly at the outset.

We have taken steps to deal with the legacy of a welfare system that encouraged dependency and penalised those who wanted to work. The benefits system was clearly broken. It did not work for claimants, for the economy or the people of those communities or for the nation’s finances. According to the Work and Pensions Committee, a parent who increased their hours from 16 to 30 hours of work a week would gain less than £1 for every extra hour they worked. It was hardly a system that incentivised people to do the right thing. That sort of example underlines absolutely the need for reform.

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[Alun Cairns]

I hope to come to universal credit if I make progress in my speech.

Welfare reform is part of the long-term economic plan to stabilise the nation’s economy, to deal with the years of financial mismanagement under the last Government, and to get the people of Britain, including Wales, back to work. The Government want to move people from dependence to independence. We must enable them to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their ambitions.

The previous Government, to their credit, recognised the need for changes to the welfare system. Various Governments attempted to address the issues, but only tweaked an already failed system. Another tweak was not an option. An overhaul was required, so we are creating a new welfare system in Wales and throughout the UK based on flexibility, simplicity and fairness. We want a system that can respond to the modern and flexible labour market, while ensuring that no individual is worse off by accepting a job. We want a system that is easy for people to use.

[Wayne David]

The Minister says he does not want people to be worse off by accepting employment, but part of the Government’s strategy is to reduce the value of benefits so that there is more incentive for people to take low-wage jobs because they are receiving hardly anything, and sometimes nothing, on welfare.

[Alun Cairns]

I am trying to get on to universal credit, but I will highlight how the poorest will be better off financially. We cannot take one policy in isolation and we must consider the reduction in unemployment—I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises and welcomes it—as well as other economic changes.

We want a system that is easy for people to use but ensures that customers receive all the benefits to which they are entitled. We want a fair system that reflects the heart of our nation—a nation that looks after those who need it but ensures fairness for hard-working individuals and families.

Worklessness needed addressing and is being addressed. Surely we must all be concerned that 200,000 people in Wales have never worked. That is wholly unsustainable. As Welsh MPs, we should want the Government to do all they can to move people from dependence to independence. I am sure the hon. Member for Caerphilly supports that and that we can continue to enable people to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their goals.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point that I will try to cover when I come to universal credit. The introduction of universal credit will always make people better off while they are in work. I have highlighted one example and could cite many more of people who were trapped in the benefits system. All parties have recognised the need for reform and the universal credit will bring about the change to move people from dependence to independence. Clearly, it is not good for individuals, their families or their communities to be out of work and it is certainly not good for the rest of the nation.

Successive Governments have failed to tackle the problem, but we have tackled it head-on. We are working to improve the incentive to work because it remains the best route out of poverty. Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that the latest statistics show that the number of workless households in Wales has fallen by 19,000. Across the south Wales valleys, 17,000 more people are in work since the election and almost 12,000 have come off benefits. I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly will recognise that.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister accept that in-work poverty is now greater than ever before?

[Alun Cairns]

That is one thing that universal credit will put right because people will always be better off. I will come to that in a moment. Our reforms are already reaping benefits. People are moving from dependency on benefits and into work. That is a positive step for Wales, for communities and for the individuals who, for far too long, have been locked in the benefits system.

The welfare system we inherited was built for 1940s society and is no longer able to deliver the support that people need in a modern flexible labour market: the sort of market that communities are already adapting to. Our benefits system needs to reflect that and to support people who need it.

A flexible labour market will be supported by universal credit because households in Wales will be entitled to £163 more a month on average and 75% of those who will gain will be in the bottom 40% of the income distribution curve.

Wales Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has put it on record that in his view the Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life. What progress have the Government made in reforming it?

[Mr Jones]

We have made it very clear that we need to rebalance the finances of this country before we will consider that. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman, however, that in October 2012 there was a specific agreement between the Welsh Government and the Treasury that on the occasion of each spending review there would be an assessment of the issue of convergence, and that is indeed what happened on the last occasion.

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[Mr Jones]

My right hon. Friend is entirely right. The indexation proposals would amount to a damp, which would effectively smooth out any peaks and troughs in relation to overall UK income and act as a strong reassurance to the Assembly Government. While I am on my feet, I would like to thank my right hon. Friend for her part in commissioning the work of the Silk commission in the first place.

[Wayne David]

Has the Secretary of State resolved his differences with the leader of the Conservative group in the Welsh Assembly on income tax devolution?

[Mr Jones]

The leader of the Conservative group in the Welsh Assembly, and indeed the group as a whole, fully support the legislation before us.

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[Owen Smith]

No, I was not saying that for a moment. I was saying that I thought that the people of Wales looked askance at losers standing on two separate tickets— first past the post and on the list—to get themselves elected. We have seen why the Opposition oppose that; we believe in democracy and we believe in democracy being seen to be done. We also know why the Government want to reintroduce it in Wales and to allow people to stand both under first past the post and on the list. That reason is captured clearly in the explanatory notes to the Bill, which say explicitly that the measure will benefit smaller parties with a smaller pool of candidates—that is, the Tory party in Wales.

[Wayne David]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the proposed change is in danger of giving the impression that there is somehow a political elite whose members are nevertheless elected even when they lose elections?

[Owen Smith]

That is precisely the impression that it gives. The rationale, as I say, is very clear. The policy only benefits the minority parties in Wales—the Tory party, of course, is a minority party in Wales. It specifically benefits Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru in Wales, who intends to stand under first past the post and on the list. I put it to the Secretary of State that the people of Wales will not look well on his gerrymandering elections in Wales in this fashion.

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[David T. C. Davies]

There is a solution. It is one that we all need to think about, and I hate to say this, but it comes from the Liberal Democrats. It takes the form of a fully federal system. The only way to stop this march towards ever greater powers going to the Welsh Assembly and to Scotland is to draw a line in the sand and say, “Okay, we’re going to give certain powers to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and maybe to London and other regions of England, but we will not go beyond that line. There will be a federal Parliament in London with fully laid-out powers and a constitutional court to deal with any issues over who has what.” That is the only way of stopping this process. If we do not stop it, I can guarantee that we will wake up in 20 or 30 years’ time to find that the whole of the United Kingdom will have fallen apart. At least Scotland is getting a vote on this. It is having a fully fledged debate on the pros and cons of independence. We are not having that in Wales. Instead, the Welsh Assembly is being given a little bit more power every couple of years, and there is no way of getting any of that power back.

[Wayne David]

The hon. Gentleman has been called early in the debate, so would he be kind enough to clarify whether he is speaking as an individual Back Bencher or as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee?

[David T. C. Davies]

Obviously, I am speaking as an individual Back Bencher; it was hard to get any agreement on certain of these issues from the Welsh Affairs Committee. Let me make it clear that I am not speaking for anyone in the Conservative party either—I am entirely on my own on this one, and probably always will be.

I would like to see one improvement that can be made to this Bill. If we consider the powers the Welsh Assembly has already been given, we can see that it has not done terribly well. We have had the sight of the Welsh Minister for Education and Skills apologising, on Boxing day, I believe it was, for the lamentable state of education. As someone who has been through the state school system there, and who has three children in that system, I feel that very strongly. Nor have we seen a good performance from our national health service. Large numbers of people in cross-border areas such as Monmouthshire are desperate to be treated by the coalition Government-run NHS in England. We have even had the spectacle of a Labour Member of Parliament being banned from going before the Health and Social Care Committee in the Welsh Assembly because she was likely to tell a few home truths that members of that Committee did not want to hear. There has thus been a failure even to carry out the proper scrutiny role.

What I would like to see from this Bill is the opportunity not to take powers away from the Welsh Assembly, but to recognise that where there are problems, individuals ought to be given the choice. Somebody in Wales who is ill and wishes to be treated in England should have the right to access the NHS in England, with the cost of treatment being deducted from the block grant. Similarly, if someone in England was happy to wait twice as long as they needed to and be treated in Wales, they could be treated in Wales, with the cost of their treatment being added to the block grant. That would be an excellent way for us to maintain the commitment to devolution while allowing everyone to enjoy the benefits of a national health service.

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[Mr Hain]

Wait a minute, Madam Deputy Speaker. Far be it from me to question whether the right hon. Lady was in order with that point, but the questions about numbers of Assembly Members and a proportional representation system are not within this Bill. They have nothing to do with this Bill. What is in this Bill is restoring the ban on the abuse of dual candidature which was in the 2006 Act, and it is that point that I am addressing.

[Wayne David]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a telling comment tucked away in the impact assessment produced by the Government? It says that the smaller parties want to change to a dual candidacy rule because they

“may have a smaller pool of high quality candidates”.

[Mr Hain]

I could not possibly comment, but since the Government say that, perhaps it is true on this occasion.

I have quoted a Labour figure, Lord Richard, in support of my case, so I shall now quote a Liberal Democrat. Lord Carlile, the former Welsh Liberal Democrat leader, said in June 2005 that

“many in Wales will welcome...the removal of the absurd dual candidacy opportunity.”

In the same debate in the Lords, the former Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, Lord Crickhowell, said:

“The present arrangements are really pretty indefensible“.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 June 2005; Vol. 672, c. 1216-1217.]

A Liberal Democrat, a former Labour Member and a Conservative former Secretary of State all agree with me. I think that that helps my case.

I recall, as Secretary of State for Wales, receiving on 9 January 2006 a press release from Helen Mary Jones, in which she described herself as a Llanelli-based Assembly Member, although she was on the list. In it, she complained about money being spent on a hospital in Carmarthen instead of one in Llanelli. However, as the list Assembly Member for Mid and West Wales, she represented both towns and should really have been supporting both hospitals. Had she been discharging her list Member’s duties properly, she would not have discriminated between the two towns or their hospitals.

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[Mr Hain]

That is not a matter for me, but I take my hon. Friend’s point with acclamation.

[Wayne David]

Is not my right hon. Friend’s case substantially weakened by the fact that nobody seriously believes that Leanne Wood can be party leader for much longer?

[Mr Hain]

I think I shall move on from that point, despite the great respect I have for my hon. Friend.

All the arguments and evidence I have cited demonstrate conclusively that the ban was not partisan but enhanced democratic standards among Welsh Assembly Members. Indeed, I reminded the House that six Labour Assembly Members, including three Ministers, could have been defeated in the 2007 Assembly elections by a swing of 3% against them—a very small swing. They would no longer enjoy the safety net of the regional list and two subsequently lost. The reform affected Labour candidates, just as it applied to candidates from other parties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I will support this Bill, although I have to say that it is very disappointing because it is, I am afraid, a bit of a shoddy compromise. Everyone realises that the Secretary of State for Wales is no enthusiast for devolution—indeed, some people might go further than that—and we know that the Liberal Democrats are quite enthusiastic, so we have a cobbling together of two different opinions, and the Bill suffers as a consequence. Its main proposals, which are modest and relate to the tax-raising capacity of the Welsh Assembly, are very limited. It also has strangely attached to it some new arrangements with regard to the electoral politics of the Welsh Assembly.

Although the first part of the Silk report has been quoted in support of the Bill, there is a great deal of difference between what Silk proposed and what the Government have put before us. For example, Silk states very clearly and boldly that

“for the financial accountability and empowerment of the National Assembly for Wales to be improved sufficiently, it should be responsible for raising a more substantial proportion of its spending.”

That is the core of its proposal. What the Government have given us on income tax-raising powers is a long way from the aspiration articulated by Silk. It is important to recognise, too, that a genuine and fundamental concern has been expressed by many people, including those in the Welsh Assembly, that there is no significant movement on Barnett. This proposal is a real runner only if there is a cast-iron commitment to, and a firm set of proposals on, modifying the Barnett formula as it applies to Wales. Under Barnett, as we all know, Wales is short-changed to the tune of £300 million per year, and that situation will not be addressed by this Bill.

[Alun Cairns]

I am interested in the sum of £300 million because it was presumably derived from the Holtham report, which is now some years old. Gerry Holtham also pointed out that as public spending contracts proportionately, the Barnett formula will protect Wales and the £300 million will decrease. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[Wayne David]

The £300 million figure, which is quoted widely and not just by me, is the most accurate figure that we have to go on at the moment. It is widely used by a number of academics as the main basis for the calculation.

[Alun Cairns]

My point is that the figure is several years old. There has been a change in the scale of public expenditure since then, and it is therefore nowhere near £300 million any more. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, given that Holtham said it in the report?

[Wayne David]

Not necessarily, because an added scenario that Gerry Holtham did not take into account is the austerity package that has been put together by this Government, which has led to huge cuts in the Welsh Assembly Government’s budget. To begin with, those cuts have not kept up with inflation, but all the indications are that they will be significantly deeper. That is an important backdrop to the whole matter that we are tackling.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I totally disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I do not believe that there is a link between the Barnett formula and devolving financial powers, but that is the position that the Labour party has taken, and it is a roadblock. Will he confirm that at the next Westminster election Labour’s manifesto will include a commitment to review the Barnett formula, because last week his colleagues in Scotland were saying that they would rather die in the ditch before Barnett was reformed?

[Wayne David]

The Labour party had in its previous general election manifesto a commitment on modifying the Barnett formula, with the introduction of fair funding and a floor. That is currently Labour’s policy, and I have every confidence that it will be taken forward.

Given the possibility of a referendum on the income tax powers—although that is not very likely—it is rather disappointing that the Government have not learned lessons from previous experience of referendums across the UK, especially in Wales. The Electoral Commission has made the valid point that we need to learn one lesson, in particular, from the previous referendum on whether the Assembly should have law-making powers, when there was no coherent, registered no campaign and therefore there could not be a registered yes campaign. As a result, we did not have the kind of debate on the Assembly’s powers that we should have had, and that is partly why we had such a relatively low turnout. I am slightly concerned that the Government have not learned that lesson and have not reflected it in their legislative proposals.

[Hywel Williams]

I rather agree with the hon. Gentleman. I was very disappointed that the no campaign did not organise sufficiently last time. The question about the referendum that I have asked a number of times is how on earth we formulate a question about lockstep, because given that, with all due respect, many hon. Members, and even right hon. Members, might not quite understand it, I do not know how we are going to present it to the Welsh public.

[Wayne David]

That is a fair point that is worthy of debate.

Another significant constitutional measure is the electoral mechanism by which Assembly Members are elected. A number of Members have already referred to that.

[Glyn Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Wayne David]

I have not made a point yet. Hang on a second—I will make a few points and then I will give way.

[Glyn Davies]

It is on the Barnett formula.

[Wayne David]

I have moved on from that. The hon. Gentleman has to learn to pay attention. But, I will be generous.

[Glyn Davies]

I was waiting until the hon. Gentleman finished his point before intervening. It was only when he moved on to the next point that I realised he had finished. Is he telling us today that a Labour Government would actually reform the Barnett formula and would then support putting the proposition for income tax powers for the Assembly to a referendum?

[Wayne David]

I do not think I said that. The hon. Gentleman has put forward an interesting hypothesis and I am sure we will consider it at the appropriate time, but it is not relevant to the discussion we are having here.

As I was saying before I was interrupted, one of the most significant constitutional changes in the Bill is the proposition that we should change the method of election for the Welsh Assembly—that there should be a revision of what was agreed in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Like other Members, I have been travelling around Wales listening to what members of the public have to say. Reference has been made to a report from the Bevan Foundation. I remember that report well, as I was one of the Members who commissioned it. It came to the objective conclusion on the basis of a representative cross-section that, as the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) said, most people in Wales did not understand the system. They also thought it was intrinsically unfair that individuals who put their names forward for election but lose the election should suddenly appear in the Welsh Assembly—most people would assume that, as those people had lost, they would not be elected.

It is fundamentally impossible to explain the rationale behind that or to argue that it is fair. Whatever special pleading we make for small parties because of how difficult it is for them to get together a sufficient number of candidates, it is an unfair proposition.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Wayne David]

Yes—do your best to explain it.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House why he thinks that either his anecdotal evidence or his summary of the Bevan Foundation’s reasons for its recommendations are more independent or fair than the work of the Electoral Commission, which was challenged legally to come up with a full consultation, based on evidence, and ultimately to give the Secretary of State a recommendation? The commission did so, and found in favour of the measures in the Bill.

[Wayne David]

It is basic common sense. If someone loses an election, they do not get elected—it is as simple as that. I challenge the hon. Gentleman to explain to anybody in the street why that is not fair. I guarantee that he will fail. Go on—have a go.

[Alun Cairns]

I do not want to labour the point too much, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the 2003 election every Labour Assembly Member topped the regional list. That suggests that there is yet another inconsistency. Even the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, who I suspect was highly unlikely to lose, topped the list. The Opposition used the system in their interests, in spite of what has been stated now.

[Wayne David]

I am at a loss to understand the rationale behind that. We live in a democracy and have to accept the system that Parliament agrees. That does not mean that we think it is right, because it is not—it is fundamentally wrong. What is being suggested in the Bill amounts to gerrymandering.

I will give a couple of examples of how the regional list system as it stands at the moment is being abused in an immoral way. There is the case of Mohammed Asghar. He was elected to the Welsh Assembly as one of Plaid Cymru’s regional list Assembly Members, but having been elected as such, then decided to cross the House and join the Conservatives. Why did he join them? Was it a great matter of political principle? No. It is said that there was a disagreement about the employment of his daughter, so he decided to cross the House and use the system.

Another, more relevant and contemporary example is that of an Assembly Member called Lindsay Whittle. Lindsay Whittle was elected to the Welsh Assembly as a Plaid Cymru list Member for South Wales East. However, Mr Whittle is also a member of Caerphilly county borough council. He lives in Caerphilly and appears to spend a disproportionately large amount of time in Caerphilly. [Hon. Members: “He lives there.”] He does live there, but he works there as well, irrespective of the rest of his constituency. I put this to the House: can it be that Mr Lindsay Whittle is so interested in the council and in his own particular locality because he wants to stand in the Caerphilly constituency at the next Welsh Assembly elections in 2016? I think that is quite likely. The point I am making is that democracy in this country is based on representation. If someone does not represent people properly, but instead represents their constituents selectively and picks out who they are going to focus on, it is undemocratic and unfair. It is reprehensible for the individual to behave in that way, but it is also reprehensible that they are able to do that under the political system.

If Mr Whittle does indeed stand for re-election in 2016, his calculation will be, “Yes, I’ll have a go at Caerphilly but I don’t need to worry if I lose because I still have the old regional list system to fall back on.” That is a practical example of this unfairness. I challenge any Member to explain to the people of south-east Wales how that can be justified and how it is an example of democracy as we understand it—it clearly is not.

[Hywel Williams]

I am slightly curious. The hon. Gentleman seems to be complaining about Lindsay Whittle doing his job effectively, given that, from what I understand, he is a councillor and he lives in Caerphilly. It reminds me of Lord Foulkes’s remarks about how the Scottish National party is going around deliberately improving services in Scotland in order to be popular.

[Wayne David]

The essential point is that this individual is a councillor representing his small ward on Caerphilly county borough council, but what about the other wards and local authorities in the region that he is also supposed to be representing? What about the other parts of south-east Wales that he is supposed to be representing? The fact is that he has chosen to represent only some people and to pursue their interests for his political advantage. That is not fulfilling a democratic mandate properly.

[Hywel Williams]

There is a well-established principle in American politics that if someone does not do their job right, they are kicked out—it is the “kick the bums out” principle. If Lindsay Whittle is not doing his job representing people as a list Member, surely the electorate will kick him out.

[Wayne David]

The whole point is that people cannot pick and choose who they want on the list. The list is drawn up by the party machines—a closed list. That in itself is undemocratic in my view. People cannot pick and choose. If people are not satisfied with the way that somebody on the list is doing their job, they cannot get rid of that person because the system works to ensure that the vested interests of elites are maintained. Most of those are in the smaller political parties.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be voting against this part of the Bill, but does he think that there could be an amendment so that we do not have closed lists but open ones? Would that be an improvement?

[Wayne David]

There is a lot to be said for that, yes. I would take it further. The elections for the European Parliament have closed lists, and there has been a debate about whether those lists should be open. Speaking personally, I think there is a lot to be said for that. Democracy is about fairness, openness and transparency. Those qualities are sadly lacking in the proposals in the Bill.

In an intervention on my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) I referred to the fact that in the impact assessment the Government have said that they want to change the 2006 Act because smaller parties say that they have difficulty in coming forward with a sufficiently large pool of

“high quality candidates to represent them in elections.”

That is what it says. [Interruption.] That is what the Government say. In other words, they are saying that, because Plaid Cymru and Conservative party candidates are not sufficiently attractive to the population, the electoral system must be changed to allow those inadequate people to get elected. That is absurd. It is not a definition of democracy. It is an indictment of the paucity of the Government’s arguments.

As I said earlier, I will support the Bill but, as Members will have gathered, I will not do so with any conviction or determination and certainly not with any enthusiasm. Frankly, it is better than nothing, but not much better. I assure the House that we will argue strongly in Committee about many of the issues that I and others have raised, and I hope to goodness that Members will have the common sense and decency to think again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

I am criticising Opposition Members on two counts. One is the amount of time that they took talking about a relatively minor issue, when they could have used their time to better effect by talking about the real, everyday concerns of the people of Wales who will be affected by the measures in the Bill. I also criticise Opposition Members on this issue because they are wrong. They are in the minority. All other parties support the measure. Wales is the only country with such a ban on dual candidacy.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Stephen Crabb]

I have been very generous with my time, and I am not giving way again.

The Bill provides the Welsh Government with the means to take active steps to improve the lives of hard-working people in Wales. It will allow the Welsh Government to tailor devolved taxes to best fit the specific needs of Wales; it will make them accountable for some of the money they raise, not just the money they spend; and it will give them the tools to grow the Welsh economy. It also provides them with the means to make much needed investment in critical infrastructure in Wales and, if they choose, to call a referendum to devolve a portion of income tax. It is a Bill I am pleased to commend to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Wales Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Wales Bill:

Committal

The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee

(2) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be completed in two days.

(3) The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order so shown.

(4) The Proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

That is very unlikely.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Wales is currently underfunded to the tune of £300 million. Why does the Secretary of State for Wales not come forward with a fair funding formula?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman will know that in October 2012 the Welsh Finance Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I announced new arrangements in Cardiff, which ensured that if there were any issue of convergence, there would be further negotiations between the Welsh Finance Department and the Treasury. [Interruption.] We believe that Barnett certainly is coming to the end of its life. The issue is to rebalance the economy, which was left in such an appalling condition by the Government of whom he was a member.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I am sorry to say that the right hon. Gentleman shows the arrogance of Labour. The Labour party did not create the Assembly. The people of Wales created the Assembly. I accept the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans); the decision of the people of Wales to say yes to the Assembly was based on the offer made. It was not a gift from the Labour party. It was a decision taken by the Welsh people, and the Welsh people are not the same as Welsh Labour. Some Opposition Members should remember that.

To return to the key issue, we are discussing a Green Paper. What surprises me is the fact that the Opposition do not seem to understand the word “consultation”. They do not accept that the document is for consultation. The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), for example, highlights the possible difference of opinion between the Assembly Member for Clwyd West and the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). I have not heard the Minister state his opinion on the issue, but I have seen him present the Green Paper.

I am proud to stand here on behalf of the party that has democratic debate among its members. We are willing to debate the issue and contribute to the Green Paper and consultation, because the issue is of concern to the people of Wales. We are asking whether we want a system similar to that in Scotland, with boundaries for the Scottish Parliament that are not the same as the Westminster boundaries. That question is worthy of discussion. I am the MP for Aberconwy, a constituency that, under the proposals for changes to the Westminster boundaries, will probably disappear into a seat called “North Wales Coast.” We shall see whether that is the ultimate resolution.

There is no doubt but that there was a manifesto commitment to change the Westminster boundaries, and as a result of that commitment, there is an issue as to whether constituency boundaries need to be coterminous. I need to be persuaded that the change is needed, but I am not running away from the debate, because there is a debate to be had. What is disappointing about the discussion so far today is that there seems to be unwillingness even to grasp the need to have that debate.

A key problem is the growing disconnect between the people who elect us and the democratic process. We need to think about that issue carefully. Do people want to elect a Member for Anglesey and Bangor for Westminster and for Anglesey alone for the Assembly? That discussion is worthy of this House and the wider polity in Wales.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

How does the hon. Gentleman explain the fact that the Government have already brought forward a standing order for the delegated legislation procedure that has been agreed by the House, allowing the next Assembly elections to be fought on the existing boundaries?

[Guto Bebb]

I am happy for that issue to be clarified by the Minister in due course.

The key thing, in my view, is that there is a debate to be had. There are disagreements within the parties. I believe that some members of the Labour party would be fairly happy with a change. We have heard a lot from the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Torfaen, about the need for two Members to be elected from a single constituency. That view has been talked about this morning. I find it incredible that the Labour party can talk about political advantage and put forward a plan for two Members for one constituency, which would also be a partisan change.

The other thing that I am surprised by this morning is the fact that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the fact that there were two options in the Green Paper: the status quo and the change to 30:30. In my reading of the Green Paper the status quo is not an option, because option No. 1 is to keep 40 constituencies but to have them equalised. I have some concern about that proposal: one of my key concerns about any changes to the Welsh Assembly is the need to ensure a buy-in to the concept of the Welsh Assembly in all parts of Wales. I represent a constituency in north Wales, including parts of the north Wales coast, and there is often a feeling that Cardiff does not concern itself, or take as much interest in, the affairs of north Wales as those of south Wales and Cardiff in particular. That may or may not be fair. Some past Assembly proposals have led to that perception. However, it is important to point out that equalisation, for example, would probably result in fewer Members from north Wales and west Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for calling me to speak. I will keep my comments brief. I just want to make one essential point: that the whole consultation on this issue is partisan. It is skewed to the benefit of the Conservative party, and the sooner the Liberal Democrats wake up to that reality, the better. I will quote a few passages from the Green Paper to support that contention. The first relates to preventing an individual from standing for the list and for a constituency. The Green Paper says that the proposal to end that prohibition

“should help smaller parties in particular”.

It goes on to say:

“It may also have a positive effect on representation in the Assembly; currently high quality candidates who stand as a constituency candidate…are lost to the Assembly”.

Well, that is democracy. People lose elections; that is not something that we should be against, although the Green Paper is against it. We should say, “Fair enough, that’s the democratic process.” Why on earth do we want to prevent that from happening by having this skewed approach towards democracy?

My second point is on the all-important issue of the Assembly boundaries. We all know that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 was a partisan document. It reduced the number of MPs across the UK by 50, but the largest reduction was in Wales; it was a reduction of 25%. It is likely that the Labour party will suffer most from that reduction. According to that Act, geography is now a minor consideration in determining parliamentary boundaries, as are topography, history, community and sense of identity; it is all down to a rough equality of numbers.

If anyone has any doubt at all about whether that Act is a partisan piece of legislation, they should compare the Isle of Wight and the Isle of Anglesey. Under the Act, the Isle of Wight is to have two MPs. Why? To keep Conservative English Back Benchers happy. Yet Anglesey will not even have one. That is crudely partisan. The Government are even distorting their own legislation to keep the Conservative party happy, and that is no way to enhance democracy or introduce constitutional change. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) says, change must be on the basis of consensus. That is how it always has been done, and how it should be done.

Regarding the boundaries, the Green Paper states:

“These developments mean that we need to change the present arrangements for Assembly constituencies”,

because of the 2011 Act. That is wrong. They do not need to be changed. In fact, the 2011 legislation contained a decoupling clause, which made it absolutely clear that the Assembly boundaries would not depend on parliamentary boundaries, so the Government want to revise their own legislation. To complicate things even more, bizarrely, the Government introduced a statutory instrument confirming the existing Assembly boundaries for the 2016 elections. They intend to rescind their own statutory instrument and contradict their 2011 legislation, and that is extremely confused, to say the least.

Option 1 of the two options outlined states that continuing with 40 Assembly constituencies

“would require a new system of boundary reviews”,

but a boundary review system is already in place, and the Government have confirmed the boundaries for the next Assembly elections. That statement might be referring to a system for the future but, on the basis of what we have had already, the changes are likely to be minor if we stick with the status quo. The Government’s arguments are false and superficial, and what is really behind the changes is a partisan approach to constitutional change.

The Government believe that this is about consultation, but I suggest that it is all about gerrymandering. To take up a point made by a number of Members, the approach taken shows an unbelievable—I will be kind—misunderstanding between the Secretary of State for Wales and the First Minister of Wales. That is no way in which to approach an issue as important as representation and democracy, and I urge the Government to recognise that they have been ham-fisted. They need to recognise that there are fundamental flaws in the Green Paper, say that it is a mistake, and recognise that the way forward is on the existing boundaries.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I did get the thrust of that, Mr Speaker, and there might be some force in the hon. Gentleman’s argument were it not for the fact that the rail network in Wales is not a devolved issue. As such, there is no force in his argument whatever.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on crime levels in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with Home Office Ministers on a range of issues relating to crime in Wales.

[Mr David]

We have already lost 40 police officers in Gwent. Does the Minister believe that this cut in police numbers will help or hinder the fight against crime?

[Mr Jones]

I visited Gwent police last week, and I was delighted to see that the most recent crime figures show an 11% reduction in crime in that force area. One might have thought that, rather than talking Gwent police down, the hon. Gentleman would offer the force some support.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I hear what my hon. Friend says. He can be assured that the Wales Office always does what it can to improve transport links within Wales.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

On the issue of railways, we have a great deal of sympathy with the Secretary of State on why she felt the need to sell her constituency home. Will she now take the opportunity to buy a home in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

My right hon. Friend’s living arrangements are entirely a matter for her, and that has of course been positively vindicated by the letter my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister recently sent to the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett).

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that my door is always open. We have already spoken to other Departments from my office and we will continue to deal with these matters on a cross-party and non-political basis, as is the proper and right way to deal with them.

I am pleased that we have been able to give the House an opportunity to debate in Government time the work of the Silk Commission, the commission that I announced on 11 October would examine devolution for Wales.

The coalition agreement contained three specific items on Wales. First, we promised to take forward the housing legislative competence order that had been held up by the previous Government, and I am pleased to say that we delivered on that. Secondly, we promised a referendum on granting primary legislative powers in devolved areas to the Welsh Assembly Government, and we delivered on that, although on taking office I found that preparations were—how shall I put it?—behind the curve.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Before the right hon. Lady moves on from the subject of the coalition agreement, may I point out that her party, in opposition, blocked the housing LCO during the wash-up period before the general election?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman, who was serving in the Wales Office at the time, arranged the timetabling so that the LCO would fall in that period; he could have delivered it much earlier.

Thirdly, we promised that following the referendum we would establish a process for Wales, in the vein of the Calman commission, and I am pleased to inform the House that we have delivered on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hain]

My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point that I hope the Silk commission will take account of.

It is simply no answer to offload tax-raising powers to Wales that will at best have a marginal impact and at worst—because of the compensating cuts in the Welsh budget—worsen the prospects for jobs, business and infrastructure investment in Wales. Meanwhile, in the real world, unemployment in Wales is rocketing. Six people are chasing every vacancy—many more in some areas of Wales—and the Government have no plan to deal with the problem. Unless they change course, it will get worse and worse.

[Mr David]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that a huge problem in Wales is that the private sector is dependent on the public sector, which means that cuts in the public sector affect the private sector as well?

[Mr Hain]

Absolutely. I have had many discussions with businesses in Wales that have been severely damaged—some have even been threatened with extinction and bankruptcy—as a result of public spending cuts, because they depend for their activities, whether they be providing services, procurement or whatever, on the public purse.

By all means consider the Silk commission agenda, but unless the Government change course, things will get worse and worse for Wales. It is the most vicious of circles: fewer working means fewer people paying taxes, which means less money to pay off the deficit. As Wales gets poorer, how can it be expected to raise its own money through taxes, as the Secretary of State would like, if the revenue coming in is being cut? There are serious questions for the Silk commission to consider, because the Government’s cuts are choking off growth, and tax revenue in Wales is diminishing substantially. I do not want the Welsh budget to be cut because of what might be deemed to be the gap in the revenue going to the Treasury arising from devolving taxes—which might happen as a result of the Silk commission—only to find that those taxes do not make up that gap.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

I suspect that there may be something in what the right hon. Gentleman says. The referendum on powers in the north-east took place quite early in the process, and there is now a much wider understanding of the implications of devolution throughout the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, there is still a problem.

We devolved powers to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland on the basis of their historical roles as nations within the United Kingdom. I do not see how we can just come along and artificially create nations within England where nations have not previously existed. I also suspect that this is not a debate that any of us here should be having. It must ultimately be for English MPs to decide for themselves whether they are content to remain representatives in England or would prefer to be representatives in the regions thereof. Let us not forget that there are 6 million people in Scotland, 3 million in Wales and 1.5 million in Northern Ireland. We have not so far devolved powers on the basis of the numbers of people in the countries concerned, and we therefore have no real right to say that because there are 50 million or 55 million people in England, they do not have the right to have a Parliament based on their own historic nation.

[Mr David]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that until now the primary motivation for devolution has been not a recognition of nationhood, but the need to enhance democracy? That is what devolution is ultimately all about. It is not about placating nationalism; it is about enhancing democracy.

[David T. C. Davies]

There have been several motives for devolution. Nationalists saw it as a stepping stone towards independence—I imagine that they would be fairly honest about that—while others, some of whom are now on the Opposition Benches, were afraid of nationalism, and saw devolution as a way of preventing the nationalist genie from getting out of the bottle. I think that they were mistaken. I fear that some may have taken the narrow political view that Wales would always be dominated by Labour whereas Britain would not necessarily be, and that therefore it would not be a bad idea to carve out little corners of the United Kingdom where Labour could always have an inbuilt majority and a left-wing Government could rule. I dread to think that that is the case, but, being a bit cynical, I suspect that there may be some grounds for believing that it is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I am long-standing supporter of devolution. I believe that it is fundamentally correct for decision making to be as close to the people as is practicable. I consider myself to be a proud Welshman, and British, and I am also an internationalist and a European. I see no contradiction between those various identities.

In practical terms, I strongly supported the work conducted by Gerry Holtham, whose report is seminal. In particular, I strongly endorse his recommendation of the introduction of a Barnett formula, and I am pleased that that was in the Labour party’s manifesto at the last election. It would have been appropriate and sensible for it to be part of the wider consideration of fiscal issues. Nevertheless, that does not alter the fact that it is an important statement, and I look forward to its being acted on.

I welcome the establishment of the Silk commission. Like other hon. Members, I have enormous respect for Paul Silk, who has worked in the Assembly as well as in this institution. He is a long-standing occupant of the Welsh Room here in Westminster, and therefore, in some ways, follows in the footsteps of David Lloyd George. I also welcome the appointment of Sue Essex, whom I know personally and who has a profound understanding of finance and devolution. However, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and others, I have reservations about what might be the motivation behind some aspects of the establishment of this commission.

I think that the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), has been very unfair on the Secretary of State for Wales.

[Paul Murphy]

Unfair?

[Mr David]

Yes, very unfair indeed. He asked how a Member from the south-east of England can have a proper understanding of the situation in Wales—but of course, as we all know, Chesham and Amersham is not in the south-east of England; it is in Buckinghamshire, which is a lot closer to Wales. However, I doubt whether that fundamentally alters the lack of understanding, let alone empathy, for the people of Wales on the part of our current Secretary of State. That is clearly shown in the way that the boundary changes that we are soon to see enacted were pushed through the House of Commons against the interests of democracy and without proper discussion in this House. Unfortunately, therefore, when the word “consensus” is used regarding constitutional matters, a question mark has to be put over whether that involves a genuine statement of intent.

I am concerned that the terms of reference are written in such a way that the work of the commission will be conducted within the parameters of the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives. We all know what those central Government objectives are—to make cuts, cuts, cuts, and nothing but austerity, austerity, austerity. It is important to realise that when we are talking about fiscal matters regarding Wales, we are talking about not increased resources but fewer resources. The question is how that reduction in resources will be introduced.

We all know that Wales is very dependent upon the block grant, which has been cut by 1.3% since the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition came to power. The big danger is that there will be bigger cuts before too long, which is why the context of the commission is very important.

Another of the commission’s terms of reference is worth noting—the need to ensure consistency of fiscal powers within the UK. The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) made the point that devolution, by definition, is asymmetrical, so why does consistency have to be a bedrock principle of the commission? We ought to recognise that whatever is proposed for Wales will be different from what happens in other parts of the UK, and so it should be.

My third and final reservation about the commission is the fact that Wales has historically been, and currently is, very dependent upon public expenditure. We all know that the Barnett formula and the block grant are important, but let us also recognise that there are other elements of public expenditure in Wales, which are often not recognised but are nevertheless crucial to its well-being.

One of the strengths of the United Kingdom is that, contrary to the nationalist interpretation of British history, Wales is not a subjected nation, under the heel of England. The reality is that there have been transfers of resources from the richer parts of the United Kingdom, particularly the south-east of England, to the poorer parts, and that is how it should be. That is the strength of the UK, and I would not like to see any measures adopted that placed a question mark over the integrity of the UK. Anything that did that would be not just a retrograde step for the concept of the United Kingdom, but potentially damaging to the people of Wales.

I mentioned Gerry Holtham, and we must recognise the importance of his in-depth analysis of the possibilities and options for the development of fiscal powers for Wales. In his introduction to that report, he stated:

“To be sure, economic reality and the integrity of the UK impose constraints on what it is practical or advisable to devolve.”

It is extremely important to bear that in mind, not least because he is an eminent economist but also because he is passionately committed to the principle of devolution. He is saying, in other words, that there is no point having devolution for devolution’s sake. We have to take a pragmatic approach of bringing power closer to the people, but we also need measures that enhance the material well-being of the people of Wales.

[Nick Smith]

I, too, support the principle of devolution, but what people in the towns of Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Abertillery and Brynmawr are interested in at the moment is jobs. With long-term youth unemployment having risen by 60%, they want a Government who deliver real jobs to boost our economy in Wales.

[Mr David]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. It is essential that we do not consider this as an abstract constitutional debate, because it has a direct bearing on the well-being of the people of Wales, their economic prosperity and the levels of employment that they enjoy.

I have sought to emphasise the importance of public expenditure to Wales. It remains important and will continue to be so well into the future. We are in the process of changing the nature of the Welsh economy, but by definition that process will take a long time to work through. It is important to recognise that. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) is correct, therefore, about the need to ensure that this is not an abstract debate, because it impinges on the lives and realities of the people of Wales.

I hope that this will be the start of the ongoing debate that unquestionably we need to have. I also genuinely hope that if we are to have change, there will be a political consensus, not only in the House, but among our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly and many people in Wales, too. That is a desirable outcome to work for, and I hope that it will be achieved, but at the end of the day, whatever course of action is decided upon, our acid test must be: what is best for Wales and its people?

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful for that intervention; it is an issue that I shall touch on later, but yes, I welcome the fact that the intention is to ensure significant public engagement. However, we have experience in Wales of public consultation in relation to the Assembly that resulted in a pint and a curry and very few people turning up. It is important, therefore, that we have proper consultation on the commission.

Some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) need clarifying. We hear a lot from Opposition Members about the cuts being imposed upon the Welsh Assembly by the Westminster coalition Government, but often those cuts are not placed in any context—no recognition that we face a financial crisis or recognition of the £150 billion deficit this financial year. I do not blame all those things on the previous Labour Government, but to make those comments about the cuts to the Welsh Assembly budget without any recognition of the context is irresponsible.

[Mr David]

My point is simple. Where there is demonstrable need, as in much of Wales, it is morally wrong for this Government, up here in London, to introduce cuts that will impinge upon the lives of ordinary, decent, hard-working people.

[Guto Bebb]

It is interesting to note that the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay were planning for 3% cuts per year for four years, yet, as we saw from the settlement granted by the coalition Government, the actual cut is in the region of 2% per year. That would be manageable in any small or medium-sized business in Wales, so I see no reason why it should not be manageable for the Welsh Assembly Government.

Some Members will have noticed that when the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) was commenting on the boundary changes, indicating, once again, that Wales was being extremely harshly treated, he refused more than once to allow me to intervene. The reason I wanted to intervene was that I was of the opinion that the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) had been promoted to the Opposition Front Bench as a result of his superb understanding of financial matters, because it transpires that he has written in a pamphlet that there is a need to reduce the number of Welsh MPs. However, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales argues otherwise, so now we understand why there has been a change on the Opposition Front Bench. The reason is simply because of disagreements between the two spokespersons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed; we should not be surprised by any of the actions taken by the Labour Administration.

[Mr David]

The principle that brought about that change was quite simple. It was that an individual should not stand for two types of seat. Why should they have two bites of the cherry? That would be undemocratic.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the system was changed specifically as a result of pressure within Labour party. There was no call for such change from the Welsh public. It has been argued that change should be made as a result of demand from the Welsh people, and I recollect no such demand.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting clarification, which is contradicted somewhat by an article by one of the Plaid Cymru leadership contenders that appeared in the Daily Post last week, and in which it was stated that the constitutional aspiration of the party of Wales was clear. It was not a very clear statement, I thought.

[Mr David]

In case the hon. Gentleman is thinking of joining the Labour party, may I just tell him that it is full?

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful for that intervention, but the Labour party has no hope of having me as a member.