Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Tom Brake Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso]

May I start by saying what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship and eagle eye, Mr Hoyle? Having regard to the point of order I shall keep my remarks as brief as I can.

Amendment 47 stands in my name and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and is linked to amendment 46. I will also speak to new clause 4 although I do not intend to speak to any other amendments. Briefly, let me explain the context behind why I tabled these amendments. Part 2 of the Bill sets out limits and rules relating to non-party political campaigning. As I understand it, the Government’s intention is to draw a clear distinction between the activities of those such as charities and interest groups that seek particular policy outcomes that they promote to all candidates and parties in an election, against those third parties that seek to influence the outcome of an election by support or opposition to particular parties or candidates.

Our electoral system is based on a principle enshrined for many years that all political activity at elections, whether by established party or non-party groups, is regulated as to the amount of expenditure they may use. That is a long-held view. Our electoral system has held that unlimited funding on the US model is not how we wish to do our politics or elections, and that we should have expenditure limits. I wholly concur with that principle.

It is therefore right that non-party political campaigns should be subject to that principle just as much as parties—a point that was clearly accepted in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Indeed, if one were to reverse the argument, it would be very odd if non-partisan groups, or even charities, were to argue that they alone should be free to have an unfettered right to spend money with regard to who wins or loses an election, either in the country or an individual seat. Notwithstanding that principle, there are justifiable concerns about some aspects of the drafting of this Bill, and the amendments seek to address one such concern.

Clause 26, as drafted, amends section 85 of the 2000 Act. Amendment 47 paves way for the meat of the issue, which is amendment 46. It simply puts forward the proposition that we should leave the status quo in place. By deleting subsections (3) and (4), the amendment seeks to state that the Government wish to proceed on the basis that nothing has changed in that definition, so that is what we should have. My proposition is straightforward: let us stick with the status quo.

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)]

I thought it might be useful to my hon. Friend and other hon. Members if I intervened at an early stage to say that the Government have listened to the concerns expressed by charities. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House met the National Council for Voluntary Organisations on Friday. We intend to introduce amendments on Report that will address many of the concerns that my hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) and other hon. Members have expressed. I assure my hon. Friend that the concerns he is expressing will be addressed on Report.

[John Thurso]

I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend. I was about to say that I hope the proposals find favour in the eyes of the Government and that they accept them. If he is saying that the Government accept the principle behind the proposals and would like to introduce on Report an amendment that does the same thing, it would be extremely churlish of me not to accept it.

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[John Thurso]

I am unlikely to get inspiration from anywhere, so my short answer is that I do not know. However, to my mind, nothing in the Bill should do that. I would be extraordinarily opposed to anything that sought to curb the press in that way.

[Tom Brake]

To be helpful to my hon. Friend, there is a specific exemption for newspapers in the 2000 Act.

[John Thurso]

I am most grateful to the Minister.

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[Andrew George]

I would like to correct the intervention by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). The NCVO indicated to me that it was to an extent reassured, and Stuart Etherington said the change in the Government’s position was tantamount to a significant step in the right direction. That does not mean, and I did not say, that the NCVO and the charitable sector are now completely happy with part 2 of the Bill—they most certainly are not.

[Tom Brake]

rose—

[Wayne David]

I will refer specifically to the NCVO position and what has happened in the past few days, but I want to make this point first. There has been a groundswell of concern over the summer. Just a few days ago, before the NCVO meeting, the Leader of the House responded to concerns by saying, “Don’t worry, you’ve all got it wrong. We are absolutely certain that we are right and you are all wrong. This won’t affect charities and voluntary organisations at all.” That was the Government’s line. On Friday, as has been said, he changed his tune and indicated to the NCVO that there would be a concession. I would like to know what precisely the concession will be. The Deputy Leader of the House wanted to intervene a moment ago. Perhaps he can say precisely what the concession will be.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I thought it would be useful if he had on record what Stuart Etherington from the NCVO said in relation to clause 26—and it relates to clause 26 only, not to other clauses:

“I am pleased that the Government has listened to and significantly met the concerns of charities and community groups. I understand the Government’s intention was not to make their normal work subject to this regulation. We will work closely with the Government and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in order to deliver this intention.”

I am a little afraid that that might mean that the hon. Gentleman has to rewrite his speech. There is a clear undertaking from the Government to work with the NCVO to ensure that it, and indeed my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), are happy about clause 26.

[Wayne David]

I read the press release issued on Friday and I had discussions with the NCVO only this morning. It has issued a brief that updates its position, saying clearly—as I do—that it welcomes this movement, but that the Government have a heck of a long way to go. There is nothing to stop the Government today putting forward, on the Floor of the House, a written commitment to give us an outline of what they want to do. All we have had is a nod and a wink and a promise.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on an important point that highlights the lack of clarity and the confusion at the heart of the Bill. We have heard the fine words of the Deputy Leader of the House on what the Government intend to do, but will he give us this commitment: will he put in writing, by means of a draft amendment that he can amend if necessary, what he has said to the Committee today? Will he provide that substantive material? Please reply.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that offer. I am sure he would prefer that the Government’s legal counsel ensured that they work to build up the amendment—on which we have already given an undertaking to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and, as Stuart Etherington has indicated, the NCVO—to ensure that, on Report, the fundamental concern of charities over the confusion that they say the Government have introduced into the definition of election materials and election purposes will be addressed.

[Wayne David]

I respectfully remind the Minister that the Bill was literally drafted on the back of an envelope in a couple of days. All we are asking is that the Government give us a draft amendment, subject to all the caveats that they want to put in about legal advice and so on, so that we have, in writing, the Government’s commitment. Otherwise many people will think that these are simply hollow words from the Government.

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[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I am grateful to him for reminding me of paragraph 59, because I, too, had underlined it. That makes the situation almost completely unpredictable for voluntary sector organisations.

[Tom Brake]

Is the hon. Lady saying these voluntary organisations are campaigning in support of a political party or for the election of a party candidate, because, of course, if they are not doing that, they are not covered by the controlled expenditure provision?

[Helen Goodman]

Yes, but that is the whole problem. They may not say, “Vote Liberal Democrat”, but if they say, “Don’t vote for candidates who voted for an increase in tuition fees,” everybody will be pretty clear what that means. The right hon. Gentleman’s party would be perfectly well able to go to court and say, “The effect of the expenditure must also be considered and it is clearly discriminatory against Liberal Democrat candidates.” That is the problem.

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[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes a constructive intervention, and no doubt the Minister will want to respond. Political engagement at whatever level in almost every form is greatly to be encouraged. I hope that the Government listen to the real concerns expressed today, and that that level of engagement is not suppressed.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the Chair of the Procedure Committee for his contribution to the debate, and I acknowledge the excellent work he does on behalf of mental health charities. I assure him that mental health charities that campaign on policy issues will not be affected by what we are debating today. I hope he will agree, however, that if during a general election campaign one of the charities he has referred to advocated support for a party or a number of candidates, that would, in effect, constitute electioneering and have to be accounted for.

[Mr Walker]

I hear what the Minister says, but I think it is acceptable for a mental health charity to advise its members to consider carefully the responses it has received from the candidates it has quizzed when it comes to deciding how to cast their vote.

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[Wayne David]

It is unusual for the Opposition spokesman to make a second speech in such a debate, but it is important to hone in on a few points that have been made on both sides of the Committee. There is a high degree of consensus, and very few, if any, hon. Members have made partisan contributions. All recognise the value of civil society and of it engaging fully in our democratic process.

The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) spoke of how the nature of society is changing, and of how civil society is becoming more important in our democracy. We should recognise that and enhance such involvement. We have also heard how public policy is extremely important, particularly with regard to the devolved institutions, for campaigning organisations and the voluntary sector. Hon. Members have heard how charities do not simply raise money, but have a great deal of input into the development of policy in their respective areas, so public policy formation and charity work come together.

In my view, all those points have produced a unanimous view in the Committee. It is important that the Minister acknowledges the relatively uniformity of view in the Committee, and recognises the need for more discussion among hon. Members, and perhaps more importantly among those outside the Chamber who will be directly affected, including the Electoral Commission, charities and campaigning organisations.

Hon. Members have honed in on clause 26. I heard what the Deputy Leader of the House said at the beginning of the debate about amending the clause and schedule 3, so I ask him, in the next few minutes, to give the Committee a commitment that he will have a dialogue with the Opposition, the Electoral Commission and all the organisations that are concerned about the implementation of the measures.

This positive debate has shown that the Committee is not against change. All hon. Members recognise that change must take place, but we also recognise that, in a democracy, if change is to enhance our democratic process, it must take place on the basis of consensus and agreement.

[Tom Brake]

I apologise for the fact that I will take some time to respond. We have been debating the matter for two or two and half hours, and it is appropriate for me to respond to many of the points that have been made. If I am unable to respond in the debate to the points hon. Members have made, or if I do not respond, they can take them up with me later and I will respond in writing.

The debate on Second Reading raised a number of important issues relating to clause 26, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) and the hon. Members for Caerphilly (Wayne David), for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for the amendments they have tabled.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly criticised the Government by saying that the Bill was rushed, but then invited me to draft the amendment we had been discussing here and now, thereby short-circuiting any discussion with interested parties on that particular issue. In response to the specific request he and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made on when an amendment will be tabled and whether there will be a process for engaging with the Opposition, the Electoral Commission and the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, I can provide them with reassurance that that process will happen. I am happy to meet the hon. Member for Caerphilly to discuss proposed Government amendments. Discussions will take place with the Electoral Commission and the NCVO prior to them being finalised. Although the House will be in conference recess, the Government hope to table amendments at least a week before to give Members time to consider them.

[Wayne David]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his positive comment. If he is giving a commitment to effectively redrafting clause 26, he will have no problem if the Committee votes against it tonight.

[Tom Brake]

It will be up to the hon. Gentleman to make his decision. I have given an undertaking, and am about to give a more detailed undertaking, of what we intend to do with clause 26. It will be up to him to decide whether he feels that that is appropriate.

The main purpose of clause 26 is to align the activities that count as controlled expenditure for political parties and third parties. Many Members have referred to the Electoral Commission’s objections to aspects of the Bill. As far as I am aware, no one has referred to what it had to say on the alignment of the definition of controlled expenditure for political parties and third parties, and I would like to put that on the record. Recommendation 29 of its June 2013 report states:

“The rules on PPERA non-party campaigning that is intended to influence voters should be changed so that they more closely reflect the scope of rules for political parties by covering events, media work and polling, as well as election material.”

That is what the Electoral Commission has to say about the importance of ensuring that the two measures mesh carefully.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Mr Allen]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I will give way to the Opposition Front Bench spokesman and then the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Wayne David]

What the right hon. Gentleman says is of course correct. Why, if he believes there should be greater alignment between the two areas of expenditure, does he want to introduce a staff cost to the voluntary sector that does not apply to political parties? He cannot have it both ways.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to underline that under the current definition of controlled expenditure, staff costs for non-party organisations have to be accounted for. This is not a departure; we are extending the requirement on them to account for staff costs to the new areas of controlled expenditure that we think should be covered, such as research.

[Mr Allen]

The Deputy Leader of the House is absolutely right that the Electoral Commission says those words. My Select Committee read a little further than the right hon. Gentleman, and it is in our report for any Member to read. It says:

“However, crucially, they”—

the Electoral Commission—

“added: ‘this would need careful consideration’. This careful consideration appears to have been lacking.”

[Tom Brake]

I thank the Select Committee Chair for that further clarification of the Electoral Commission’s quote. What we are doing to bring these two measures of controlled expenditure in line is careful and considered. We may, if we have time, come to clause 27. I suspect that we may debate other aspects later.

[Dr Francis]

The Minister talks about careful consideration. Will he produce a human rights memorandum on the Bill and will he allow my Committee, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, to produce a report? We only began to deal with this report today and we hope to report sometime in October. Will he allow us the opportunity to present that report to the House and for him to consider it?

[Tom Brake]

On the human rights aspects, some Members have questioned whether the Bill is compliant. The Government’s assessment is that we consider all the spending limits in the Bill to be compatible with article 10 and have taken into account the amount that the third parties are permitted to spend under the reduced limits and the amount that they spend now. Clearly this has been given active consideration by the Government, as the hon. Gentleman would expect.

The main purpose of clause 26 is to align the activities that count as controlled expenditure for political parties and third parties. At present, the activities that count as controlled expenditure depend on whether we are referring to a political party or a third party. This means that spending by recognised third parties to assist a political party with the cost of an event would be captured as political party spending. However, if the recognised third party were independently to organise such an event itself—perhaps supporting that same party—such spending would not be caught. That highlights why we are trying to ensure that these two definitions—for third parties and for political parties—are brought into line.

We agree with the Electoral Commission that the current variation in what constitutes controlled expenditure for a political party and for a recognised third party is a potential gap in the regulation of spending in the UK elections, hence the intention behind clause 26. I believe that aligning the definition of controlled expenditure is a reasonable and sensible measure. However, to achieve this, the current definition of election materials needs to be revised. [Interruption.] I hope Members will let me finish what I am saying before trying to intervene. At present, recognised third parties incur controlled expenditure in connection with the production or publication of election material that is made available to the public. As a result, the Bill proposes to replace “election materials” with “for election purposes”; as we are aligning the activities with those of parties, we are also aligning the language of the test.

As we have said, the Government do not believe that we are significantly changing or widening the present test. Controlled expenditure would be incurred only where an organisation is promoting or procuring the electoral success of a party or candidate. However, I am conscious, as are the Government, of the concerns raised by right hon. and hon. Members that charities and voluntary organisations will be caught by the proposals in clause 26 and that the new language leaves room for ambiguity. This is not the Government’s intention.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that what he and the Government are proposing is that if a charity puts out a leaflet saying “Vote for people in favour of animal welfare”—I have voted recently in favour of animal welfare—and if, as happened at the last election in Bassetlaw, the Conservative party unwisely and unsuccessfully spends £250,000 sending direct mails to my electorate with pictures of some southern politician, the Conservative party will be able to do that but the charity will not?

[Tom Brake]

On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the political parties have sought to get an agreement on party political funding and that that was not possible. He can speculate on where the blockage for that was. On the question of the charity, I can assure him that if his charity campaigned in the run-up to the 2010 general election, we will ensure that it has the same level of clarity about what and how it can campaign as it did then. I hope that he will acknowledge that some of the concerns expressed today about the uncertainties for charities about what they can and cannot do exist under the present legislation. Those charities already have discussions with the Charity Commission and the Electoral Commission, under the present legislation, about what they can and cannot do

[John Mann]

So to confirm, the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the Conservative party could spend that money, which was wasted in Bassetlaw—or, indeed, it could spend it against him, very personally and directly—but that if a charity campaigned on how he or I voted, and if it persuaded us in the year running up to an election and then used its resources to e-mail its supporters or members, who then e-mailed us to congratulate us on how we voted, it could be caught out by the law.

[Tom Brake]

We could continue this rather unfruitful dialogue, or I can restate that, whatever the charity to which the hon. Gentleman refers did in the run-up to the 2010 general election, we will ensure the same clarity about what it can do in the run-up to the 2015 general election, and there would be no difference.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

rose—

[Tracey Crouch]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I am going to make a bit more progress. It may help the Committee—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh)]

Order. The Minister is not giving way at this point. Hon. Members must let him continue.

[Tom Brake]

I will give way shortly.

It might help the Committee if I set out in a little detail why the amendments in this group would not work effectively, along with some of the points we will need to address before Report. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for his amendments, which in substance try to achieve what the Government want to do. However, in practice, there are some deficiencies in their wording, which means that we cannot simply adopt them now.

[Tracey Crouch]

It is quite clear from today’s discussions that there is still some confusion among charities and third sector organisations about some of the wording in the Bill. I am pleased to hear that the Minister is willing to reconsider the precise wording, but when he does, will he bear in mind the fact that other organisations are also concerned about the impact of the Bill? They include the excellent Liberal Democrat Voice, LabourList and ConservativeHome, which are equally unclear about whether part 2 applies to what they do.

[Tom Brake]

When the amendment is made public—we have made a commitment to do that—I am sure that those organisations will be effective at lobbying us, and no doubt 38 Degrees will also want to communicate its views. We will be informed about whether the different organisations consider our amendment to be sufficient to achieve what they are requesting.

[Mr Anderson]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I am going to make some more progress.

The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross would alter clause 26, so that a third party would incur controlled expenditure only when it undertook activities that fall within part 1 of proposed schedule 8A to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, as set out in schedule 3 to the Bill, and are incurred “for election purposes”. It would also remove the definition of “for election purposes”, which means that “for election purposes” would be undefined in the legislation. I can see that the objective of the amendments is to maintain the expanded list of activities that would count as controlled expenditure, but to revert to the existing definition, as used for “election materials”.

The amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Caerphilly seek to reinstate the current legislative arrangements. Recognised third parties would incur controlled expenditure only for “election materials” and only for certain activities, such as advertising and unsolicited materials addressed to electors. The Government believe that aligning the activities for which political parties and recognised third parties incur controlled expenditure is a sensible and reasonable objective. As I have said, this measure is advocated and supported by the Electoral Commission.

The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) referred to Hope not Hate. I agree with him that many of the things that people have said today will result from the Bill will simply not happen. However, given that Hope not Hate spent above the cap proposed by the Government, its spending would be constrained, so he touched on a genuine point. I will be meeting Hope not Hate to see whether we can address the concerns it might have. With organisations such as 38 Degrees and Hope not Hate increasingly switching to online campaigning activity, the costs of campaigning could go down, as it is much cheaper to campaign online via e-mail than by using postal mailshots. I will meet that organisation to discuss the matter in any case.

There is a potential gap in the regulatory regime when a recognised third party that undertakes public rallies and media events would only incur spending on election material made available to the public, whereas if that were done on behalf of a political party, the cost of the full range of activities would be captured. This objective should not be lost in the wider discussion relating to charities and voluntary organisations.

A further amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Caerphilly seeks to amend the definition of “election purposes” so that controlled expenditure would be incurred only by a recognised third party when it was its direct purpose. It is useful to highlight to the Committee that, under the currently regulatory regime, the test for “electoral materials” has a subjective and an objective element.

[John Mann]

Given what the Minister has just said, will he confirm that if a church or a synagogue were to organise an election hustings but chose explicitly to exclude a fascist candidate, that would be deemed to constitute electioneering against that candidate and would fall entirely within the remit of the Bill?

[Tom Brake]

That is the kind of issue that can be taken up with the Charity Commission and the Electoral Commission under existing legislation to establish whether that particular activity constituted electioneering. Nothing that we are proposing would affect that.

The amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Nottingham North seek, as previous amendments have done, to strike a balance between the reasonable intent of expanding the range of activities that incur controlled expenditure, and addressing concerns over the activities of charities and voluntary organisations being caught. Amendment 131 seeks to revise the definition of “for election purposes” as activity that can reasonably be regarded as promoting or procuring the success of a party or candidate. As the Government have indicated, we support the principle of that aim, and we will table amendments on Report which I hope will address that concern to the hon. Gentleman’s satisfaction.

A further amendment tabled by the hon. Gentleman proposes that donations by a third party to a third party coalition group should count towards the donor third party’s spending limits. That seems to suggest that such a grouping would register as a separate, new third party and be subject to the wider controls of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. The intention appears to be to repeal section 94(6) of PPERA. That provision stipulates that when two or more third parties work together as a group or coalition in pursuance of a common plan, the whole of the expenditure they incur as part of that coalition must count against each third party’s spending limit separately. However, the drafting of the amendment would not explicitly repeal section 94(6). The amendment also fails to consider that removing the existing provisions on acting in concert would remove a key anti-avoidance measure from PPERA. If total spending by a group of third parties acting as part of a common plan was not counted in full against each individual third party’s limits, it would allow third parties to form many coalitions on single issues in order to evade their spending limits. That would remove a vital safeguard from the integrity of the rules.

[Angela Smith]

Has the Minister considered the position of the Wildlife Trust in this context? It is not a single organisation but a coalition of trusts working up and down the country; it is a coalition of organisations working as a single body.

[Tom Brake]

Clearly we have. This comes down to the issue of whether the Wildlife Trust, which I suspect has members drawn from all parties and none, would as part of that coalition campaign in support of a political party or of a number of party candidates. If it did not intend to do so, it would not be covered by the legislation.

[Mr Allen]

In respect of the amendment I tabled in line with the sentiment of my Select Committee—very much along the lines of the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso)—I am receiving reassurances from what the Minister said, so I am happy not press it to a Division. We all look forward to seeing the actual words that will give life to both those amendments.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. I shall move on to other amendments, but I want to take the opportunity to reassure him that we would seek to engage with him on the amendment we propose to table on Report.

[Paul Flynn]

Is it the message of the right hon. Gentleman’s speech that all the organisations and charities that are campaigning against the Bill should now intensify their campaigns until October in order to get something sensible from the Government on Report?

[Tom Brake]

Far be it from me to encourage or advise charities. I am sure they will continue to campaign if they feel there is a need, but my hope and expectation is that, once the NCVO and other organisations have seen the amendment that we intend to publish to address their concerns about a lack of clarity on the definitions, they will be satisfied. They might not be satisfied on other elements, but we will wait and see how they respond.

The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire would exclude the part 2 provisions from applying to elections to the Scottish Parliament without the assent of the Scottish Parliament. A number of Members have commented on the Bill’s impact on the different Administrations, so perhaps I need to clarify the issue. For the most part, the Bill is focused on UK parliamentary elections, and many of the provisions will have no effect on elections to the Scottish Parliament. Spending controls operate by regulated period, rather than by election, so seeking to exclude Scottish Parliament election spending in those areas where there are common rules would create an unworkable situation. For those reasons and others, these matters are reserved.

The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan would exclude charities registered in the Scottish charity register. The Electoral Commission has highlighted in its amendment briefing that, as a general point, it does not see a case for charities to be exempt from the rules regulating third parties, and the Government agree.

[Dr Whiteford]

Will the Minister outline exactly what discussions he has had with the devolved Administrations about this Bill in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? What discussions has he had with the charity commissions that regulate charities in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Tom Brake]

I am afraid I will have to write to the hon. Lady. She will be able to judge for herself whether she feels that the response is suitable.

The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) intervened on the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan and referred to future elections “imminent or otherwise”. I would like to clarify that that is an existing definition under PPERA, not something new that the Bill would introduce.

[Lady Hermon]

The Minister mentioned me, so I appreciate his giving me the opportunity to say that the Bill amends existing legislation, specifically the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. That is what we are discussing. The fact that a term already exists in legislation does not make it good. I would like him to explain what is meant by a future election being “(imminent or otherwise)”. It is in that Act. What does it actually mean?

[Tom Brake]

I can assure the hon. Lady that, given that this term has been in legislation since 2000, it must be completely clear. I am going to move on.

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I have met representatives of the voluntary sector to hear their concerns first hand. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and the hon. Members for Caerphilly, for Nottingham North, for Perth and North Perthshire and for Banff and Buchan that we will look closely at the drafting of the clause so that it is absolutely clear that we are not changing the current test. I apologise for repeating that. It must be the third, fourth or fifth time I have said it today, but I think it is important to make it clear to everybody what we are seeking to do. We believe that that would most simply be achieved, and the greatest reassurance would be given to campaigners and to the Electoral Commission, by a reversion to the situation set out by existing legislation, which defines controlled expenditure as expenditure

“which can reasonably be regarded as intended to promote or procure electoral success”.

[Interruption.] I hear one of the Opposition spokesmen say that this is a shambles. I hoped to hear from him that it was, in fact, a case of the Government’s listening to the concerns expressed by charities and by Members on both sides of the House, and responding to them.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I will give way to the Opposition spokesman, but I will not take any more interventions after that.

[Wayne David]

I thought that the Minister was in listening mode, but there we are. May I ask him one simple question? Does he intend to revise schedule 3?

[Tom Brake]

I think that we shall have to wait and see—[Interruption.] As I have said to the hon. Gentleman, what we are seeking to do is to address the concerns expressed by charities about the lack of clarity in the definitions. We have indicated that we will revert to terms very similar to those used in the original legislation. I am sure that if he genuinely wants to address the concerns that charities have expressed, he will welcome that. As I said, we will return to the issue on Report.

In new clause 9, the hon. Member for Caerphilly calls on the Government to undertake a post-legislative assessment. New clause 10 also calls for such an assessment. We conducted an impact assessment, which we consider to be adequate, but the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Nottingham North, may well wish to undertake a post-legislative assessment. The Leader of the House and I are both keen for post-legislative scrutiny to take place, and, in fact, would encourage Select Committees to carry out more of it than they do at present.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly referred to the amendment which would alter schedule 3 by appearing to narrow slightly the types of manifesto or documents that are included, omitting those which set out a party’s policies, but not the third party’s view of them. It would also remove the detail of the type of expenses that should be included in calculation of the amount of controlled expenditure associated with any manifesto or other document setting out the third party’s view on the policies of a party or candidate.

At present, recognised third parties incur controlled expenditure in connection with the production or publication of election material which is made available to the public. That will normally cover activities such as advertising, unsolicited material addressed to electors, and any manifesto or document setting out the policies, or the recognised third party’s view on the policies, of one or more parties or candidates.

While schedule 3 expands the range of activities that may constitute controlled expenditure, manifestos or policy documents—being election material—are already covered by existing law, and will remain so. They are simply described here in a different way. I therefore urge that the amendment is not pressed to a vote.

References have been made to press conferences and rallies. I know that the TUC has expressed fears that it will not be allowed to hold its rally. Our view is that the TUC would not promote parties or political candidates at the rally—especially given what is happening at the TUC conference today, where it could almost be argued that the TUC is supporting anything but the Labour party. [Interruption.]

[The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh)]

Order. There are too many private conversations and sedentary interventions. May we have a bit of peace and quiet so that we can hear the Minister?

[Tom Brake]

I suspect that the Committee is becoming restless, Sir Edward, and that I need to move on very, very promptly. Members will be pleased to learn that I have reached the penultimate page of my notes.

I have explained to the hon. Member for Caerphilly that staff costs are covered by the controlled expenditure rules that apply now to non-party organisations. Therefore, by extending the definition of controlled expenditure, we are requiring them to account for staff costs in the areas that are now also covered by controlled expenditure.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I am not going to give way. I have made that point clear. I do not think the hon. Gentleman understood it, but I hope he does now.

The hon. Gentleman asked why staff costs are accounted for for non-party organisations but not for political parties. The role of political parties is entirely to campaign politically and therefore all the staff costs of any political party would have to be accounted for as part of controlled expenditure. I do not think he is advocating that.

I have come to the end of my notes. Having heard the firm undertakings the Government have given to engage with the NCVO, the Electoral Commission, the Opposition and a number of organisations that are going to respond to the amendment when it has been published in advance of Parliament returning, I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross will think that we have done enough for him to withdraw his amendment.

[John Thurso]

This has been a substantial debate both in time and in content, and I am very grateful to all Members on both sides of the Committee who have contributed to it, and also for the widespread support—albeit some of it, I suspect, slightly unintended. The debate has raised an important question. I shall not refer to all the speeches, but I will make one point. I intervened on the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) to reiterate a point made by the Chair of the Select Committee: that so much of this is about perception. My amendments are, by returning to the status quo, designed to get rid of one of the perceptions. I am therefore very grateful for the undertaking the Minister has given, which is that the substance of my amendment will be included in the amendment he will bring forward on Report, that he will consult with the Opposition and the voluntary organisations, and that the amendment will be published sufficiently far ahead of our proceedings on Report to be properly considered by everybody.

I have never managed to get any concession out of a Minister before in my life and it is a lovely way to celebrate my 60th birthday, so I will accept. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

Which are the organisations that are going to go wacky? They are the Royal College of Midwives—yes, probably—Action for Children, the Howard League for Penal Reform, the Royal British Legion and Oxfam; those organisations gave evidence to my Select Committee about their concerns. They are not fringe; they are not just within the bounds of legitimacy. They are mainstream bodies, many of which have been going for 100 years or more. The National Trust is another—it is almost a newcomer, having been going only since the 1920s, I believe. I could also mention Christian Aid, the Stroke Association, Girlguiding, the Woodland Trust, the Royal Mencap Society, the RSPB, Friends of the Earth and the Salvation Army. They are big and can look after themselves. They can get a brief and some legal advice. More chilling is what might happen to others who gave evidence. What about the Foyle Women’s Information Network and the Newcastle Council for Voluntary Service? They cannot take a risk of being interpreted, under the definitions in this Bill, as being even marginally in an area of transgression.

[Tom Brake]

In the hon. Gentleman’s last sentence he moved off the main point he was referring to, which was the cap. Did any of the organisations he just cited as having given evidence to his Committee say that they intended to spend more than £390,000 on supporting a political party in the 12 months before the general election?

[Mr Allen]

Give me the time to undertake accurate pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill and I will give the right hon. Gentleman his answer.

What we should be doing in this place is adding to the rich tapestry of our democracy, not emaciating, frightening, chilling or putting a shadow over it. We should not be having people who fear engaging with their politicians and fear being part of our electoral process. We should have people who say, “We are welcome. Parliament is passing something that says, ‘Come in, we want to hear you. You are the big society. We want to listen to what you have to say.’” Are we saying that today? No, we are not, as we can see when we look at clause 27. This House should be sending out a much more positive message to those organisations, and to everybody else who wants to support and develop our democracy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for giving me the last few minutes in the debate. I concur with the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen)—he described exactly my feelings.

Charities and the Christian organisations tell me that the Bill will reduce the financial threshold at which a third-party campaigner must register with the Electoral Commission. Under the newly broadened range of activities, if a third party plans to spend £2,000 or more in the year leading up to the general election, it must register with the Electoral Commission. The Christian Institute and the Royal British Legion are concerned about that—the hon. Gentleman mentioned a number of charities that have the same concerns.

That is a unique problem for charities, many of which hold events at the Long Gallery in Stormont in the Northern Ireland Assembly for, for example, children in care, cancer awareness-raising or women’s rights, to name three of dozens of important issues. The events are costly to hold—it is highly possible that a charity will spend £2,000 or more in the year before an election without purposely seeking to enhance one candidate over the other. The charities set out to achieve a goal, but the Bill will disadvantage them greatly. I do not believe that the Government have acknowledged or understood the key issues Opposition Members have described.

Registering with the Electoral Commission at the low threshold will create disproportionate administrative burdens on charities and regulatory bodies. One point that has not been made in the Chamber is that the limit will apply to partnership working. For example, if two charities work together on a single-issue campaign and spend £2,500 each, they must both report expenditure of £5,000, which is nearly half of the limit of £11,000 in Northern Ireland.

The awful part of the measure is that, significantly, it will become a criminal offence to exceed the spending limit. The charities will not only be stopped from campaigning; they will be criminalised, which must be wrong. I cannot understand how the Government can say that that is not the case.

Other hon. Members have indicated that there will be changes to the Bill in the House of Lords. Let us pray for those changes. If those changes are made before we debate the Bill again in the House, we will have got what we wanted, but it is a pity that the Government cannot acknowledge that point.

Under the Bill, there is a significant possibility that the legitimate campaigning efforts of community and voluntary organisations will be unduly curtailed, and perhaps even criminalised, which undermines the efforts of charitable organisations to advocate for the most disadvantaged in our society. It could also prevent politicians from hearing those voices. Would it not be a terrible tragedy if we the politicians did not hear the voice of the charitable organisations that want us to campaign on their behalf to make life better for our constituents?

The Bill must not unduly impact the vital work of the community and the voluntary circle. I support hon. Members who are trying to do away with clause 27. I ask the Government to realise they are heading the wrong way.

[Tom Brake]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Before I call the Minister, I thank hon. Members for assisting in ensuring that we can hear the Minister reply to the debate before the votes.

[Tom Brake]

Thank you for assisting with that, Ms Primarolo.

I suspect that the plaudits—admittedly some were lukewarm—the Government Front Benchers received for shifting the ground on clause 26 will not be repeated in relation to clause 27. This is perhaps not the occasion to ask the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) to explain how it is that someone who went campaigning with his nanny has become such a fervent critic of the nanny state. We may have to delay that clarification.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My amendment would not prohibit them from campaigning; it would merely mean that they could not be registered third parties. They would still be able to campaign.

[Tom Brake]

The fact remains that, from a Government perspective, we do not want to be in a position where organisations currently assisting the Government are not able to campaign in election campaigns.

Amendment 66 would amend clause 27 so that it no longer lowers the expenditure threshold that third parties may exceed only after they register with the Electoral Commission. Clause 27 proposes that those registration thresholds be set at £5,000 in England and £2,000 in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Government are seeking to do that because we believe in greater transparency. We believe it is important that people understand who is campaigning in the course of election campaigns. It has been said, possibly by the Chair of the Select Committee, that that will have a huge impact on a very large number of charities. The Government’s assessment of how many extra charities will be included as a result of dropping the threshold is 30—just 30 charities would be affected. I accept that potentially 30 charities may be affected, but in practice the overwhelming majority of charities will not be affected.

[Mr Allen]

The Electoral Commission has dismissed the numbers the Deputy Leader of the House is being forced to read out, and says that they are a gross underestimate, or words to that effect.

[Tom Brake]

We shall wait and see. The Government have assessed it and that is our assessment. I am not being forced to say it is 30. I am comfortable with saying that it is 30. That is what the Government believe to be the case.

[Wayne David]

If the objective is transparency, what is the logic in having a reduction to £5,000? Why not £4,000?

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Brake]

The Government’s view is that we are including a wider range of organisations, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to advocate reducing the threshold to £500 he is welcome to do that, with the additional burdens it would impose on a much larger number of charities.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

In the 10 minutes that remain, I need to complete my remarks.

On amendment No. 66, upon registration with the Electoral Commission, third parties become entitled to incur controlled expenditure up to a higher limit and will have to comply with other regulatory requirements. The Bill lowers the thresholds in order to identify greater numbers of third parties that campaign in the political process. It is right to distinguish which organisations incur expenditure campaigning at elections and to ensure that their funds are fully accounted for. Reducing the registration thresholds, as proposed by the Bill, does not preclude third parties from campaigning. This is a point that, I am afraid, a number of Members have made: that a requirement simply to register will stop organisations campaigning. That is not so. The requirement to register will mean that the expenditure that they can incur is controlled. In the light of that, I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 165 proposes that until the Electoral Commission has undertaken an assessment of the impact of clause 27 on political parties and on third parties and that report is laid before Parliament, the provisions of clause 27 may not come into effect. I have been asked why we have settled on the cap. Clause 27 amends the third party limits for controlled expenditure. These limits would be the equivalent of 2% of the maximum campaign expenditure limit for political parties. For third party campaigning across the UK, this would be £390,000. As hon. Members will be aware, currently the level at which it is set does not cover or catch any of the third party organisations.

Setting a cap at £390,000 would, as I stated earlier, capture two organisations that currently spend slightly above that cap. We think that that would, first, provide equality of arms in relation to the examples to which the Chair of the Select committee referred—the League Against Cruel Sports and the Countryside Alliance. It would ensure that one organisation campaigning in favour of something could not be heavily outgunned financially by another campaigning on the opposite side of the argument.

If at the next general election, the threshold were set where it is currently and the 30 organisations that registered all spent at their current limit—the £1 million, or just under, that they are allowed to spend nationally—they would have been able to outspend, very heavily, each of the political parties. Our view is that election campaigns are about political parties fighting and setting out their stalls, with, of course, third party organisations campaigning as well, but it should in principle be a battle between political parties.

Clause 27 also lowers the expenditure thresholds at which the third parties must register with the Electoral Commission: the thresholds are set at £5,000 in England and £2,000 in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As I stated, the Government’s assessment is that that would affect a total of 30 additional non-party organisations, not charities, as I stated earlier. Thirty additional non-party organisations might be caught by the lower threshold. The Government have already published an impact assessment on the provisions of the Bill, which considers the impact of the lowered registration threshold. It assessed that only a small number of third parties would be required to register and become subject to the regulatory framework. This will not create new administrative burdens for already registered third parties but, as I stated, may affect 30 additional non-party organisations.

The impact assessment also considered the impact of the lower spending limits. At the last general election, the largest 10% of third parties spent more than the remaining 90% put together. As I stated, only two organisations spent more than the new lowered limits that the Bill proposes. That demonstrates that the current spending limit is so high as to be ineffectual.

The Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee listed a range of organisations that he said gave evidence to his Committee. I asked him whether any of them had told him in their evidence that the Government’s proposed cap of £390,000 would affect their ability to campaign politically during the next general election, and he did not respond. I suspect that he did not respond because none of them intended to spend that much. [Interruption.] I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman if he is about to tell me which of those organisations said they would spend above £390,000.

[Mr Allen]

I am surprised that the Deputy Leader of the House wants to abdicate the role that Her Majesty’s Government have given to him, but I will make it clear again. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee will pick up his remit, if he cannot do it himself. If the Government give us the time to do our pre-legislative scrutiny—time that we asked for—instead of putting a Bill before the House one day before the recess and taking Second Reading one day after, we will do that job and many others.

[Tom Brake]

Having given the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee a second opportunity to state which organisations would be affected, I am afraid to say that he is unable to do so. I regret that. The impact assessment has been carefully prepared. Requiring the Electoral Commission to undertake another assessment is unnecessary, particularly if it would prevent a key provision of the Bill from being enacted before then. I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman not to press his amendment.

Concerns have been expressed about the cap in the Bill. We have set out why we think a national cap of £390,000 is appropriate. It would have affected only two organisations in the last general election. We have also set out why we believe that lowering the registration threshold to £5,000 would lead to greater transparency. People would be able to get more information about which organisations were campaigning in a general election. I therefore hope that the amendments in this grouping will not be pressed to a vote.