East Coast Main Line

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Bone, to serve under your chairmanship. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for securing and leading the debate today.

This is not the first Westminster Hall debate on the east coast main line and, unless the Government change their position, it will probably not be the last. The Government might not like to have such repeated debates, but the Opposition make no apologies for bringing the issue back for discussion time and again. We will do so until the Government change their policy, because there is an overwhelming case against forcing East Coast trains back into the private sector without even giving the public sector a chance to offer an alternative.

My hon. Friend reminded us of the positive financial record of East Coast trains and that the public are clearly against the return of the east coast service to the private sector. The staff on the line, and the cities up and down the line, do not want the service to return to the private sector, and public opinion is overwhelmingly against the proposals that the Government seem determined to push forward.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I give way to my hon. Friend, whose constituency neighbours mine.

[Sheila Gilmore]

My hon. Friend and I have spent a considerable time campaigning on this issue in Edinburgh. Does he agree that the overwhelming response of the people we have spoken to while we were gathering signatures has been that they do not want the line to be re-privatised?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on securing the debate. It is important that we continue to raise and debate the issues on the east coast main line, with a view to persuading the Government, I hope, that they have gone down the wrong track. It is not too late to go into reverse. I am a regular railway traveller, but this is one time when I will be more than happy for the train to stop and go backwards.

It was not such a joy to arrive at Newcastle station a couple of weeks ago and be told that the best advice was to get off the train and go home. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) and I were so determined to get here that we ignored that advice and soldiered on to Peterborough. That delay was due not to the train operator, but to the stormy weather; the line was certainly not the only one affected on that date. Some might suggest that East Coast let us down, but we were clear that that was not the case. Indeed, when we tried to take other lines to get from Peterborough to London, we discovered that they were all affected, whether they were privatised or not.

Things like that will happen in any travel system, but the service has—many regular travellers will say this—improved over recent years. People enjoy their journeys. I have said this before and I will say it again, because it is important from a Scottish perspective and an environmental perspective: the improvements are making inroads into getting those important business travellers, who otherwise might always travel by air, to use rail. If we are serious about creating a modal shift in transport, we have to make rail both attractive and reliable to get that kind of traveller. That is one thing the service has done extremely well.

I have taken part in at least four of the several debates that we have had on the east coast main line. As well as the Westminster Hall debate referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West, we had a Backbench Business Committee debate in the Chamber in which many colleagues spoke. We have had many opportunities to ask oral questions, and we have all taken them up. At this stage, one might think that we should find something new to say and look at the matter from some new angle, but the problem is that our questions have never been answered. It is important that we go back over those questions. Perhaps on this occasion we will get responses to some key points.

[Ian Mearns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ministers might ask why the public have so little confidence in the re-privatisation of the east coast main line, and the answer is simple: for the bulk of the time since the railways were privatised, the franchise has been in the hands of the private sector. The orders for new rolling stock on the line have only been secured since the franchise has been in the public sector. Much of the existing rolling stock is 35 or 40 years old. For the bulk of that time, it has been in private hands with little investment, apart from a lick of paint.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for making an important point on East Coast that speaks to how we run the railways. A lot of the public assumed that privatisation would mean that investment would be brought in and that everything would be brought up to scratch. That was the selling point.

The track investments are necessary and we need to see considerable improvement in the infrastructure on the east coast main line, particularly with the overhead lines, which have caused a lot of the recent problems. We need to see that crucial investment and we need to see the rolling stock upgraded, but none of the onus will be put on those who are being asked to tender for the service. Whatever investment there is will come from all of us as taxpayers.

The notion that we have to privatise to get investment was the selling point at the beginning, which people perhaps swallowed. They probably thought, “Yes, if that is a way of improving things, we will at least give it a try,” but that investment is not happening and will not happen in this case either. All the things that desperately need to be done will not get done through this privatisation process, which is, in many ways, a distraction from the measures that could lead to a real step change. We have talked about improvements and we are not complacent. We do not think that everything is perfect. We want to see a step change in the line, but it will not come through this process.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Lady, but would she care to speculate on whether the very investment that she and her colleagues are looking for in the east coast main line could be diminished once the Government get their way on HS2? Does she share the fear that such vast amounts will go into this bright, shiny new railway that, as in France, the existing lines might fail to get the investment that she and her colleagues desperately want?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I think the right hon. Lady knows that I do not share her views on this matter. We should not cast one railway line against another, because one of the advantages of HS2 is that it provides an opportunity to improve some of the other services, not least by dealing with the capacity question.

One issue is the opportunity cost of prioritising East Coast over some of the other long-distance franchises. Under the original franchising timetable from August 2011, a new contract for the west coast main line was due to start in October 2012, with Great Western starting in April 2013 and the east coast main line thereafter. However, following the debacle of the west coast main line bidding process, a new timetable was announced in March this year. The east coast main line, which was previously the last in the trio of inter-city franchises to be let, was brought forward to be the first. That was only made possible by the current operator of the west coast main line, Virgin, being given a franchise extension of four and a half years to April 2017. At the same time, the Great Western operator, First, has been given an extension of two and a half years to September 2015. In total, that is 77 months’ worth of extensions.

The Government justify prioritising East Coast by referring to the Brown review, which was carried out after the problems with the west coast main line. They are restating their belief that competition in the bidding process should drive down the subsidy required or drive up the premium payments offered. They say that that will push operators to be more efficient and innovative, and prompt investment in new services. One can argue that franchise competitions might achieve these goals, but the one thing that certainly will not achieve those goals is franchise extensions. That is because the Government, by setting up this arrangement, have no option but to negotiate with the existing operators on other lines. The only bargaining chip that Ministers can use is to threaten to call in East Coast’s parent company, Directly Operated Railways, but they are reluctant to do so, as is highlighted by their desperation to extract DOR from the east coast main line. How are the other franchisees threatened by Ministers saying, “If you don’t agree reasonable terms, we’ll take you into the fold of Directly Operated Railways,” when Ministers are running as fast as possible in the opposite direction with the east coast main line?

[Mark Lazarowicz]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. When there were problems with East Coast trains, as there were with Southern some years ago, Directly Operated Railways was able to step in and provide an alternative when the private sector failed. If Directly Operated Railways is taken off East Coast trains—I do not know what will happen to the organisation, but I presume that there might still be a shell company—the nucleus that allows it to operate an alternative may disappear, so there might not be an alternative even if a future private sector operator fails.

[Sheila Gilmore]

My hon. Friend gives a helpful example of where, instead of increasing competition and providing opportunities for the Government to exercise some control over the rail companies, that possibility might be being reduced.

The contract extensions, which were made necessary by the Government’s determination to pull East Coast forward, will cost the taxpayer a lot of money. In 2011-12, Virgin paid the Department for Transport a premium of £165 million, and First Great Western paid £110 million. Will the Minister confirm that there will not be payments of anywhere near those sums during the extension period? Will he also confirm that, apart from the roll-out of wi-fi on First Great Western, which all train operators are beginning to offer, the two extensions offer no improvements for passengers? There is less money coming in and no improvements; the extensions need not have been given had the Government stuck to their original timetable.

If the east coast main line had not been prioritised, the extensions simply would not have been necessary. There could have been fresh competitions, if that was the Government’s will, for the west coast main line and the Great Western main line. If East Coast had been performing badly in the public sector, there might have been some justification for what has happened—the imperative of turning East Coast around would have trumped other disadvantages of negotiating extensions on the west coast main line and the great western main line—but East Coast is performing well, so that reason simply does not apply.

The Government clearly hope that they can get to the next election with all the main line routes back in the private sector. The Government could take credit for that in the hope that it would be extremely difficult for any incoming Government to do anything about it. If that is not the motive, the Government have to say what is their real motive for proceeding in that way.

Public opinion has changed. People have seen the reality. Some people, although not necessarily all of us—there are always some critics—warned that privatisation of rail might be a step too far. Members of the public who were prepared to give privatisation a chance now see Directly Operated Railways as an opportunity to have a rail service in public ownership that brings money back to the Treasury. As I said earlier, when we talk to people, they enthusiastically support our campaign. The Government sometimes say that they listen to public opinion, and on this occasion I suggest that they do indeed listen to public opinion and stop the process before it goes any further.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I call Graeme Morrice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

Does the Minister accept that the original plan was for the east coast main line to be the last of the three lines to be refranchised, so the only reason that it now seems to be in line with the original date is that the whole thing was put on hold due to the complete debacle of the west coast main line?

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Lady cannot argue that we are rushing it through when she has just said that we are keeping to the original timetable. The then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) announced a timetable and we had already started the consultation prior to the west coast refranchising process being stopped, so it is nonsense to argue that this is rushed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s welcome for our planned investment. I will write to him about the more detailed question of the timetable so that he will be well aware of it.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I want to take the railways Minister back to his earlier statement about the east coast franchise. Could he be precise about the innovations that I and my fellow travellers will see if the process goes ahead?

[Mr McLoughlin]

We will see, when we make the invitations to tender, exactly what proposals come back from rail companies, but the simple fact is that this Government—and the previous Government, for that matter—have seen huge growth in our railways as a result of the innovation of the train operating companies. This is not new; it was well established under the previous Government and continues to be under this one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. He may be aware that the Procedure Committee’s report states that it is not its intention to facilitate the passage of Bills into law through the private Members’ Bill route, and that it should not be easy to do so. Its position is that it does not want a simple process that allows private Members’ Bills to be rushed through.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Unusually, I was here last Friday for the consideration of private Members’ Bills—I had the joy of having secured the Adjournment debate. I have to say that it reminded me just how dreadful the process is. Any member of the public would be appalled at the behaviour of the House in these matters and the way that Bills are talked out. Last Friday, I actually saw a Minister participating in that process to ensure that a later Bill did not receive proper consideration. Surely we need urgent reform.

[Tom Brake]

All I can say is that there are cases where private Members’ Bills do not make the progress that Members who promote and sponsor them would like. However, there are examples of Members—they include the Leader of the House and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young)—who have, when in opposition, successfully passed private Members’ Bills. It is possible for Members to make progress.

Cycling

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Indeed. I saw that with my own eyes, and I took part on a more conventional bike in that Pedal on Parliament. The point that my hon. Friend makes is a good one. One reason we have seen an increase in Edinburgh in the percentage of journeys undertaken by bike has been the political commitment over many years—political commitment in which, I am pleased to say, the Labour party over the decades has taken the lead, and which, to be fair, is now widely shared across the political parties in Edinburgh, just as it is in the Chamber today.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) pointed out—and I should mention that we were joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) in Pedal on Parliament this year—we have also had a very effective grass-roots campaign, first in the form of Spokes, the Lothian cycle campaign, of which I have been a member for many years. That campaign has consistently and in a well-informed way put pressure on local government and central Government to deliver both cycle spending and the integration of policies in wider planning and transport activity, to give cycling a higher profile. We have also seen the very successful Pedal on Parliament initiative, which started in 2012 with a couple of thousand people lobbying the Scottish Parliament at the end of a cycle ride, and which in May this year ended up with 4,000 people in a very impressive lobby of the Scottish Parliament.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the significant things at that event was the reaction of those who were there to a spokesperson from the Scottish Government who gave only warm words—compared to the local council, which has committed 5% of its transport budget, to rise by 1% each year to 9%—because cyclists know that words are not good enough?

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend points to the commitment of Edinburgh council not just to maintain a 5% level of all transport spend, both revenue and capital, on cycling but to increase it year on year by 1%, which is a major commitment. In a briefing to some of us earlier, Chris Boardman said that it was the first city in the UK to make that commitment. That contrasts with the poor record of the SNP Scottish Government in supporting cycling. It is interesting that the success of the Pedal on Parliament campaign in Edinburgh has had the effect of shaming the Scottish Government into putting more money into cycling. That is a tribute to such campaigning work, which is so important at the grass roots.

I do not want to make jibes at other political parties in what has otherwise been a non-partisan debate, even if those parties are not represented in the Chamber today. In Edinburgh we have now seen a cross-party consensus on cycling policies. Although it is true that our Labour colleagues on the council made a commitment to increase the spending on cycling year on year, it is being done now with the support of the minority party in the Edinburgh council coalition, the Scottish National party. So let us hope that the SNP at Scottish Government level will follow the example of its colleagues on Edinburgh council.

As has been mentioned a few times in the debate, some of those who organised the Pedal on Parliament campaign to lobby the Scottish Parliament had personal experience of death and serious injury to cyclists on our roads. The increase in deaths and serious injuries to cyclists in England over the past five years has been replicated in Scotland. We have seen a similar increase over the past five years. Let us not forget that as well as being in every case a personal tragedy for the families and friends of those involved, every cycling death or serious injury has the effect of discouraging people who might otherwise come back to cycling, because they do not realise the wider relative or absolute safety of cycling compared with most forms of transport.

There are many reasons why it is vital to have targets to bring down the toll of death and serious injury to cyclists on our roads, and I have no doubt that if the measures proposed in the “Get Britain Cycling” report were implemented, they would dramatically reduce the number of cyclists killed and injured on our roads.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Some of my constituents who urged me to take part in the debate may have been surprised when I wrote back to say that, although I would put in for it, I could not guarantee that I would be able to speak, or able to speak for long. I think that, in general, the British public underestimate the extent and seriousness of the House’s interest in cycling. Debates on the subject have been greatly over-subscribed, at least during the time for which I have been a Member of Parliament, and I think that that is a huge step forward.

It is a pity that a debate which has been so well supported will not receive much publicity. It will not, I suspect, feature on the front pages of many newspapers, despite our best endeavours. That is probably because it is too consensual. The British public, or perhaps the media, are sometimes a bit odd in that respect. We are always being urged to be more consensual, but when we are more consensual, we tend to be ignored, and what we say is not considered very important. I hope that at least some attention will be paid to this debate, because—as was pointed out by the hon. Members for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and for Gloucester (Richard Graham)—it is important for us to mention not just the problems but the fun and enjoyment of cycling.

It is also important for people to realise that Members of Parliament are human beings who “get” cycling. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) said that we might not look like MPs if we turned up sweating from cycling, but MPs are people as well. When I was first a councillor and cycled around my ward all the time, my constituents initially thought that I was a touch eccentric, but as they got to know me, they realised that that was actually a very sensible thing to do. Cycling gets us to where we want to be very quickly and efficiently, especially in cities. Sadly, in rural areas cycle use is falling rather than rising, and that is clearly an issue that we should think about.

When I was a young trainee solicitor, I was asked to deliver an offer. Housing offers had to be delivered by a deadline of noon, and this was before the days of fax and e-mail: they had to be delivered physically. When my boss said that the offer must be delivered by 12 o’clock, I said “I will just go and get my bike”, but he threw me the car keys and insisted that I take the car. Of course, taking the bike would have been much more efficient. Once you get the car to the destination, assuming that was in time, there would be nowhere to park it, and in parking it five minutes’ walk away, absolutely nothing has been gained. People have to understand that.

Even in a city such as mine, where generally, as I indicated in an intervention, a lot of money is being spent on cycling and there is a lot of support for it, the proposal for how to deal with Princes street once the trams arrive and start working was, disappointingly, to have an only one-way cycle route, along that prime street of the city. One argument for that was that the alternative route, which would have had a two-way cycle route, was on one of the big national cycle routes and people would want to go through it. I greatly admire people who do long-distance cycling, but I am not one of them; for many of us we are talking about a daily event, and people want to go from A to B easily. Perhaps Edinburgh council is listening, along with other councils, because they have to make it easy for us to get to where we want to be, as that will encourage a lot of people to get cycling.

Rail 2020

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Iain Stewart]

I am too young to have been able to enjoy the east coast main line in those years, so I cannot comment, but from what I remember of the old British Rail Scottish region, the catering offer was not—

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Iain Stewart]

Edinburgh is about to intervene.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Has the hon. Gentleman sampled the catering offer and customer comfort on ScotRail, because I rather suspect it is not much better?

[Iain Stewart]

I have been on a number of trains in Scotland and had a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I do not know which services the hon. Lady has been on, but the last time I took a ScotRail train it was rather good.

If the Minister will forgive me, I want to touch on two local issues. First, I mentioned earlier the welcome investment that Virgin and London Midland are making in their rolling stock, which when all is delivered will achieve a considerable increase in capacity for my constituents. Until we get that, we have a problem with overcrowding, particularly during the evening peak. I have written to him about that before and so am just giving a gentle nudge to see whether we can reach a temporary arrangement between London Midland and Virgin to allow some London Midland passengers to use Virgin trains in the evening peak in order to spread demand.

Secondly—I made this point this last week—when we look at the second phase of high-speed rail and where the east-west line will intersect the proposed high-speed line in Buckinghamshire, perhaps it would be sensible to look at an intermediate station to allow people in Milton Keynes and the rest of Buckinghamshire to access the line.

In conclusion, the railways are in a good place. The problems and challenges we face are the product of success and increased patronage. The investment that is being made is welcome. I heartily endorse the different investments the Government are making and look forward to our achieving another golden age for the railway network.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

In recent months, I have been spending a lot of time working on issues relating to the east coast main line and the proposal to re-privatise it. The Backbench Business Committee was good enough to grant a debate on that some two weeks ago, which gave many of us an opportunity to explain why we had severe concerns about what was happening. In a lot of these debates it is interesting to see how we reprise a lot of our own prejudices—we are probably all a bit guilty of that—and we heard repeated the old mantra about British Rail’s soggy sandwiches and drinks that were like coffee or tea. However, some of us can also recall some pretty good things about British Rail. As a student, I was able to send my luggage in advance, door to door. None of the privatised rail companies has, at least as yet, repeated that. When my children were going to university, it was difficult to send their luggage. No doubt a lot of people now drive their children there and back, but we did not do that. There are good and bad things here. If we, on both sides of this argument, constantly raise those issues without having a proper debate, we will not progress things much further.

One advantage of the east coast line having been operated by Directly Operated Railways in the past few years is that we have been given something of a comparator. The Minister is fond of saying, “There is nothing really to compare. Every area and every franchise is different, so it is not a fair comparison.” Nevertheless, this arrangement has given us something that is perhaps as close as we are ever going to get to an ability to try out a comparison. It is a pity that the Government do not seem to want to allow it to continue so that we can see what is happening over a longer period.

Obviously, today’s debate is about looking more widely at railway issues and where they are going to be in the next few years. The things that have exercised the Government and the Transport Committee are the McNulty report, the cost of Britain’s railways and McNulty’s stark conclusion that our railways cost 40% more to run than comparable networks in Europe, many of which are state-run. If we had still had a nationalised railway at the time of McNulty and it had been found to be 40% more expensive, there would have been a huge outcry from many people about how dreadful it was and how we must do something about it. In some ways, one could start to construct the argument that it is a sign of the failure of the entire process of franchising and privatisation over nearly 20 years that we are in this position. We were promised that the system would be innovative and cheaper but that just does not seem to have happened. We should be having some serious discussions about why.

The Transport Committee has considered the problem and tried to analyse some of the reasons behind it. We have heard a number of suggestions about how we could achieve the efficiencies identified by McNulty. He considered staffing, closing ticket offices and cutting the number of train guards, but as the Transport Committee rightly said, safety issues must be considered, including people feeling safe when they travel. We do not want to compromise safety and we must ask what savings can be realised in such circumstances, particularly as McNulty was looking for substantial savings of £3.5 billion.

McNulty also suggested closer working between Network Rail and individual train operating companies—what is now called alliancing in the language of transport. A key driver of increased cost since privatisation has been the fragmentation of the industry to try to create competition when it is inherently difficult to do so with the split between track and stations and the operation of trains. The difficulty with alliancing is that it will not—or probably cannot—be rolled out on routes with multiple operators. Network Rail therefore said that from that point of view it does not expect to save much money, so, on that basis, we must ask how it would actually work.

McNulty also mentioned raising income from retail and we discussed that today. There have been changes in places such as the new King’s Cross station and the new St Pancras station. Sometimes, one walks into a station nowadays and wonders whether one is in a station or a shopping centre. It can even be quite difficult to find out where the platforms are, and people get quite disoriented. Whether such an approach is feasible anywhere other than in the big mainline stations must be considered with some degree of caution. Much of people’s travelling life is spent in relatively small stations in small places and people want to get there, get on their train and go, rather than have a shopping experience. One reason it works for the airlines is that people are required to arrive at airports very early and have a lot of time on their hands. In my view, one of the advantages of rail travel is that passengers are not required to spend a lot of time waiting. That is not to say that the idea is not a good one, to some extent, but the notion that we can achieve huge income and therefore efficiencies through such an approach is doubtful.

The Transport Committee states that if the efficiencies are not achieved, we must go back and consider the whole way in which the industry is structured to see whether that is the best way to make the railways work for us. If the McNulty proposals that the Government are working through do not achieve those savings, we will still have a serious problem ahead.

It is good that we are here. Our predecessors 40 years ago would have been surprised to find that we are in the Chamber discussing the railways with such enthusiasm, as they thought they were becoming a rather niche interest. However, there is a question about whether we are in this position because of privatisation, as some speakers have suggested, or whether we have seen a change all over Europe in how people travel. The initial attractions of car transport have diminished, particularly in a crowded island such as Britain. It must be said that much of the investment that has gone in since privatisation and that is still going in is from the public sector. It is not coming from the private operators, regardless of what was promised, so we as taxpayers are subsidising the railways. Perhaps that is the right thing to do, but whether it is the right thing to do through privatisation, so that we are, in effect, subsidising the profits made—where they are made—is a completely different question. As my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) said, we must not confuse correlation with causation.

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[Mr Burns]

I must make progress, because it is almost time for me to finish.

The Rail Delivery Group is showing how collaborative working across the rail industry can secure improvements in asset programme and supply chain management. We are working through our franchise programme to facilitate regional partnership working arrangements and alliances between train operators and Network Rail, as has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No, because I am running out of time.

Those arrangements could involve joint working to improve performance and planning for engineering works or to reducing delays and disruption for passengers. Integrated control centres can deliver smoother and more efficient network operations.

The Rail Delivery Group brings together Network Rail, freight operators and passenger train operators. It provides leadership for the industry, and offers a coherent and focused response to the investment and operational challenges laid down by the Government. Network Rail is enhancing its accountability with a new transparency scheme to publish more information and data that are of interest to the public.

Oral Answers to Questions

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I welcome Hitachi’s investment at the Newton Aycliffe site, following a £4.9 billion contract that it has already won for refurbishment of IEP trains. The Department is currently considering other proposals. Huge investment is being made in all our railways, partly as a result of the huge increase in the number of people who use them.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Q12. During a debate in the House last Thursday, the Minister of State acknowledged that investment in infrastructure and rolling stock for East Coast would be financed by the taxpayer, but that there would also be some private investment. Perhaps—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We do not need these constant sedentary interventions from the Minister of State. The message is clear and simple: be quiet, man.

[Sheila Gilmore]

What additional investment does the Secretary of State see privatisation bringing?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I simply say to the hon. Lady: look at what has happened since privatisation—and, indeed, all the current franchises in operation were let by the last Government.

East Coast Main Line Franchise

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the east coast main line franchise.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving us this debate. When I spoke to the Committee in support of the debate, I acknowledged that we had a 90-minute Westminster Hall debate on the subject on 5 June which was led by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), but on that occasion there was great demand to speak. Many Members were limited to interventions. More importantly, there were many issues which the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) did not address in his response. I intend to make that the focus of my speech today.

I declare a family interest in the railways. My grandfather was a railwayman and I am sure he would be delighted to see me here today speaking up for the railways. Of course, he was a railwayman in the pre-British Rail days, let alone the post-British Rail days. In fact—this will probably give away my age—he was working on the railways in the first world war in what was then a reserved occupation. He recalled being approached occasionally by people with white feathers because he was not fighting. He worked in the railways after the war when it became British Rail, and as a long-term railwayman he would have been proud to see British Rail and to see that the railways are still such an important element in our transport system. At various times in the past 50 or 60 years there have been suggestions that railways were the past and we would move beyond railways, but here in the 21st century it is true to say that railways are back as a hugely important part of our future, not just of our nostalgic past. It is therefore particularly important that we get it right for the next 50 years.

The other interest that I have to declare is as a frequent traveller on the east coast main line, spending nearly 10 hours a week travelling on that line when Parliament is sitting. Since I started that regular commute, I have been extremely impressed with the service provided by the current operator. That is not to say that it is perfect. I do not think any provider would have been able to tackle, for instance, the day that the line was completely flooded north of Newcastle, when I ended up having to spend the night in Newcastle. I do not believe that even a private operator could have held back the waves of water that fell on the Newcastle area that night, and I know that several Members present experienced that personally.

I was perplexed when, following the fiasco of the west coast main line refranchising, the Government’s new schedule of competitions prioritised getting East Coast out of the door by February 2015, three months before the next general election. Some cynics have suggested that what motivated that proposal and the timing of it was the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), our shadow spokesperson on transport, had been raising the issue and challenging the Government on the proposals, given what had happened with the west coast main line. The next thing we heard was that the Government were to refranchise East Coast within a very short time scale. That was to be done at the expense of giving extensions to two other long-distance operators—Virgin on the west coast and First on Great Western—because the investigation into the franchising fiasco suggested that not more than one main line franchise should be dealt with at one time. Even on that basis, though, why the east coast line and not one of the other lines? It makes no sense to reprivatise a successful public sector operator while neglecting the other services.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I am following the hon. Lady’s speech with great interest, but I always think it better to focus on cock-up in politics, rather than conspiracy. In that respect, would she like to explain why, on 21 January 2010, under a Labour Government, the Department for Transport consultation on franchising made a commitment from her party to reprivatise the east coast main line?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am glad the hon. Gentleman made that intervention, because it enables me to say that one of the most important things for all of us in politics is to experience, to look at the evidence, to learn and to come to a view based on that evidence. No doubt he would be interested to read an article published in The Northern Echo today in which Lord Adonis is reported as saying that, on the basis of that experience, his view is that the line should not be refranchised. If we could not learn from our experience and change our politics, it would be a sad thing indeed. I hope that, having heard that people who previously held that view have changed their mind, the present Government will be prepared to follow suit.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

As I happen to have the article from The Northern Echo in my hand, it might help if I read out what Lord Adonis says:

“In the last four years, East Coast has established itself as one of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally and commercially.

This has fundamentally changed the situation and it is right and proper that East Coast should be allowed to continue as a public sector comparator to the existing private franchises.”

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying the position. Perhaps for the rest of this debate, unlike the one in Westminster Hall, we will concentrate on the main issues before us and the reasons why the Government made the decision they have.

In the Westminster Hall debate, a number of hon. Members questioned the Minister’s claim that East Coast’s performance had plateaued, noting the remarks the right hon. Gentleman made to the Select Committee on Transport on 24 April:

“If you look at the latest monthly figures for reliability and punctuality, it is the worst of the 19 franchises.”

That struck me as odd, because in my experience East Coast trains are, more often than not, on time. That was borne out in the debate, in which many speakers pointed out that the Minister was quoting figures from a narrow four-week period in which bad weather had caused flooding and brought down overhead wires. East Coast is powerless to prevent such incidents, and responsibility for subsequent delays lies with the infrastructure manager, Network Rail. In fact, according to the moving annual average punctuality figures, which offer a more balanced picture, East Coast is in the top three of the seven long-distance franchises.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour and those who signed the motion on securing the debate. Is it not worth pointing out that, over the decades, a consistent cause of delays has been problems with the overhead wires? Is she aware that one of the main reasons those problems have arisen is that, back in the ’80s when the line was electrified under the previous Conservative Government, the overhead wires system was installed on the cheap? Ever since, we have suffered problems precisely because they did not do the good job they ought to have done.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Indeed. I am not saying, and I do not think any Opposition Member would say, that there is nothing that needs to be improved. Track and rolling stock can always be improved, and the current state of the track and overhead cables is a problem, but I would argue that it would be a problem for any operator. That is not what lies behind the Government’s proposal.

There is also the question of the premium payments. Again, I quote the Minister, this time at Transport questions on 25 April, when he said that

“the premium that the east coast main line pays to the Treasury is less than that paid by the west coast main line.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 995.]

In fact, a recent report from the Office of Rail Regulation suggests that, in 2011-12, the Government received £156 million in net franchise payments from the operator of the west coast main line and £177 million from East Coast—the opposite of what the Minister asserted.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

The hon. Lady is making a typically eloquent speech, but does she not agree that it is apposite to mention, in the spirit of fairness and transparency, that the track access charges for National Express were significantly higher—£210 million, I understand, rather than the £92 million now charged to the operator?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I think the important thing to bear in mind is that the service is not failing in the ways the Minister said it was. If a Government propose a policy, it has to be based on the right evidence and not on an inaccurate interpretation of the situation.

Let me now talk about what East Coast does with its profits. In the previous debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough pointed out that whereas private operators are obliged to pay dividends, public operators can reinvest all their profits back into the service, which in East Coast’s case has amounted to more than £40 million since 2009. One of the criticisms that has been made in the past and might still be levelled now at a public operator is that, because the dead hand of bureaucracy lies on it, such an operator cannot be as efficient and as fleet of foot as a private sector operator, but it is true to say that East Coast is organisationally distinct from the Department for Transport. It is staffed by railway professionals and is therefore able to take the best of a private sector company in terms of efficiency, innovation and entrepreneurialism, but because it is in the public sector, any profits it makes are available to the Treasury and all of us as citizens of this country and taxpayers.

I am concerned that talking down East Coast to justify the proposed refranchising will damage morale at the company. That is most unfair, because staff and management have worked extremely hard and achieved good results, with 1 million extra passengers carried in 2012 compared with 2009 and record passenger satisfaction. I hope that, when he responds to the debate, the Minister will correct his remarks on punctuality and premium payments; acknowledge that East Coast reinvests all its profits and can emulate private sector efficiency; and congratulate staff and management on East Coast’s success. I think that that will be an important message to send back to the work force.

Given East Coast’s success, it makes no sense to prioritise its reprivatisation while other long-distance operators are being offered long extensions. Under the Government’s initial franchising timetable, the new west coast main line contract was due to start in October 2012. Under the new timetable, and as a result of prioritising East Coast, the current operator of the west coast main line, Virgin, will be offered a total of four and half years of extensions up to April 2017. Similarly, for the new Great Western contract, which was meant to start in April this year, the operator, First Group, is being offered three years of extensions up to July 2016.

Let us look again at another reason the Minister gave for prioritising the east coast main line over others. He said that the line

“connects industries in the north with commerce in the south, provides cross-border services to Scotland and helps to drive the development of tourism and the success of Edinburgh and Leeds as key financial centres outside London. That is why it is at the forefront of our new rail franchising programme”.—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 252WH.]

I accept all those things, although many of them can be said about other rail lines.

It is important for business that we have a good, strong railway service on the east coast main line. I am regularly accompanied on my weekly commute by an increasing number of business travellers, many of whom work in my city’s sizeable banking sector. Those people have often been attracted away from short-haul flights by East Coast’s excellent new first class offer, which in the long term could benefit our environment. Business travellers are also attracted by the new services that have been introduced, including a later evening service and an earlier morning service, which enable people who want, or have, to travel to London for business meetings to do so by rail in a way that was not possible before.

However, the west coast main line and the Great Western line are also important for business. The west coast main line connects five of the seven largest conurbations in Britain, and Great Western serves Bristol, Cardiff and the prosperous Thames valley, so the claim that the Government have decided to prioritise the east coast main line because of its importance to business does not really stack up—at least, it is not a reason for prioritising the east coast main line over the other services that were previously due for refranchising.

By deferring proper franchise competition on these other lines in favour of extensions, the damage done to business on those routes could well outweigh any benefit accrued by prioritising the reprivatisation of the east coast main line, because extending those franchises involves little or no competition. It is likely to cost franchises a lot while failing to deliver any improvements in service.

It also leaves the Government in a weak bargaining position with the franchise operators by offering them those franchises without competition. After all, one of the reasons the Government would no doubt give for wanting to franchise is to have competition that would drive innovation and improvement. However, as far as the other lines are concerned, it is more or less a case of giving the operators an extension.

The only bargaining chip that the Government appear to have is to call in East Coast’s parent company, Directly Operated Railways, presumably as some kind of threat to the franchise operator, so that if it does not settle for a reasonable sum the line might be given over to Directly Operated Railways. That seems rather odd, from a Government who are telling us that they do not want rail lines to be operated in that way.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s argument, but I am afraid that I have lost the thread a bit. Will she clarify whether she is opposed to the refranchising of the east coast main line in principle, or does she simply want it to be held back for a certain length of time so that other franchises can be retendered, which is what she seems to be arguing for?

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We did say that the hon. Lady would speak for 10 to 15 minutes, but she has now been going for 19, and it looks like she still has a ream of paper to get through. I feel sure that she will be coming to the end shortly.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I would certainly argue for keeping East Coast in public ownership. The point I am trying to make is that even in terms of the Government’s justification for what they are doing and their timetable, it does not make financial sense. Therefore, it will not make financial sense for the effectiveness of this country’s railways, or indeed for our financial position. That is an important point. It raises the question of why the east coast main line is being refranchised at this point.

If the Government’s decision had been based purely on a view that East Coast had been performing badly in the public sector, which I know has been said—I hope I have show that it is not the case—it might have been an imperative for turning East Coast around, but that is not the point. I think that we have to ask, yet again, why this is happening. Why should we take a service that is performing well and put it out to franchise, with all the disruption that will cause, and potentially for no gain?

I hope that the Minister will address some of the key points that I have already raised but that were not fully addressed the last time we debated it—punctuality, premium payment and the success of East Coast—because I am sure that he would not want to be accused of putting ideology ahead of the interests of passengers and taxpayers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

The east coast main line is vital in providing connections between Scotland, north-east England, Yorkshire, eastern England and London. Liberal Democrats in government are delivering a massive investment in rail infrastructure and are determined to put passengers at the heart of the railway system. That is why, as part of this coalition Government, we are investing £240 million in the east coast main line between 2014 and 2019.

On 25 March, the coalition Government announced that the franchise for the east coast main line is due to be returned to the private sector in February 2015. Officials from the Department are meeting interested parties, including Transport Scotland, to ensure that future changes to the east coast main line are co-ordinated successfully. Part of the programme will be the establishment of new vehicles for the inter-city east coast franchise, which will replace the existing set of diesel-powered high-speed trains from 2018 onwards.

It is true that under the nationalised operating company, there has been an extended period of successful operation, but—

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the new rolling stock is not linked to the refranchise?

[Mr Reid]

The Government are providing the money for the new rolling stock. Yes, it is perfectly possible that if the railway was to continue under the directly operated company that new rolling stock could still be provided.

Before the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) interrupted me, I said the word “but”, and I want to draw the House’s attention to one of the conclusions of the Brown review. It highlighted that any significant delay in the resumption of the franchising process could have a negative effect on investments involving rolling stock, upgrades and expansion and could result in some international suppliers deciding to make alternative investments outside the UK.

In a supporting letter from Mr Brown to the Transport Secretary, dated 31 December 2012, he wrote:

“I have come to the conclusion that the franchising system is not broken, but, on the contrary, it has made a major contribution to Britain’s increasingly successful rail network. There is no credible case for major structural change.”

That demonstrates that the operation of train services indefinitely by the directly operated company is not an alternative to our system. Direct operation is a key part of the private franchising model, but it was only ever meant to be a short-term mechanism as a measure of last resort.

We heard Labour Members arguing for the continuation of the directly operated model, but the Labour party is divided. By my count, we have two votes for nationalisation for ever, one for nationalisation for an indefinite period and, from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, one for “Don’t know”. I do not think I received an answer to my intervention, but if she wishes to clarify that I am perfectly happy to give way to her a second time. The resumption of the franchise process should take place at a speed and pace that works for the Department and allows it to make necessary improvements. That was one of the key proposals of the Brown review and is why the Department will now ensure that no more than three to four franchise competitions are delivered per year in total.

Let me conclude by reiterating the commitment from the Liberal Democrats, as part of the coalition Government, to the improvement of our railways. We and our coalition partners are determined to place the passenger at the heart of the rail system and deliver better value for money in the system following years of extreme inefficiency under Labour. That is why we are delivering the biggest investment in our railways since the Victorian era. The east coast franchise and the new vehicles that are coming with it are an important part of that investment package.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank all Members who have contributed to this debate, especially the Government Back Benchers, who made it a proper debate. We may not agree, but this is an important issue and we all need to be challenged and to have that discussion. However, I am disappointed that they seem determined to paint this debate as a strictly binary dispute—everything should be private, or everything should be public—hence the insistence on trying to push Labour Members to “come out”, as it were, as renationalisers. I am sure that some of my colleagues are unabashed renationalisers. Our dinosaur Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), demonstrated that he might be in good company, in that 70% of the British public might also be dinosaurs on this issue.

We do not need to approach this subject in a highly ideological way. There is a powerful pragmatic argument, whatever we think of the wider issues, in favour of retaining East Coast in public hands. That case was made powerfully by many Members. I do not want to ignore the contributions of others, but I would single out the powerful contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who asked some important practical questions and pointed out that to rush this process—even in the face of what the investigation into the west coast fiasco told the Government—is to put ideology above common sense. Unfortunately, the Minister was so determined to talk about our policies then and now that he still has not answered a number of the crucial questions. He has not said why the east coast route should be prioritised over other long-distance routes. He did not say why the evidence presented in previous debates was not—

East Coast Main Line

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Andy McDonald]

I wish I could put my finger on it. My hon. Friend highlights a key issue, but it is useful to note that the way East Coast operates is a good comparator for the other services operating in this country.

The improvements are reflected in two key metrics. First, under public ownership East Coast achieved a record-breaking 92% overall customer satisfaction rating in the autumn 2012 national passenger survey conducted by the independent transport watchdog, Passenger Focus. That is the highest score on the franchise since the survey was launched in autumn 1999. It is 5% ahead of the score achieved in 2011 and three percentage points higher than the 89% average for all long-distance train operators. Indeed, in 2012, East Coast received the highest customer satisfaction score of any long-distance franchise operator.

Secondly, complaints stand at a rate of 150 per 100,000 journeys according to the Office of Rail Regulation’s latest available figures—down considerably on the previous quarter and back to the level prior to the disruption from the end of last year. Although that figure is relatively high compared with those of other train operating companies, it is just one third of where it stood when the east coast main line was in private ownership in 2007-08. A higher-than-average complainant rate might be due, in part, to the nature of the line regardless of its ownership, but since it is the publicly owned and publicly operated London Overground that has the lowest rate, at just two complaints per 100,000 journeys, it is difficult to claim a direct relationship between public ownership and complaints.

In addition, perhaps because of the unprecedented investment in staff that I have mentioned, there has been a 78% reduction in threats to staff in the past year. The apparent contradiction between a rise in customer satisfaction and a relatively high complaint rate dissolves entirely when we look at the Office of Rail Regulation’s breakdown of the reasons behind the grievances. Complaints about train service performance are down, year on year, from 38% to 29%, but what are on the increase and make up more than a fifth of all complaints are criticisms of the quality of the trains themselves. That comes directly from the fact that the rolling stock, which East Coast inherited from National Express, is eight years older than the industry average, at 27 years as opposed to 19.

That East Coast has achieved better customer satisfaction than any of its long-distance rivals, while running the oldest rolling stock of any franchise bar Merseyrail Electrics, is a testament to the workers and the management, and that the trains are still running at all after 30 years or more of continuous use is a testament to the brilliance of the engineers of British Rail Engineering Ltd who designed them and the factory workers of the north of England who built them.

Some elements of on-train comfort have also seen a marked increase. Of particular interest to certain hon. Members will be the new first-class complimentary at-seat food and drinks service, which has reversed historical losses of £20 million per annum and which contributed to a 21% rise in the number of first-class journeys in 2011-12, compared with the preceding 12 months. East Coast now serves a million meals per annum, which is a tenfold increase on the previous service, and its first class has certainly looked very nice on the occasions when I have walked through it.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I am very pleased that my hon. Friend succeeded in securing this debate. The first-class service, which, as MPs, we do not of course use, is important because of the environment. For many business travellers, it can make a considerable difference to their choice between flying—certainly from Scotland—and travelling by train. If we want to make the modal shift that we need for our environment, we need a service that will attract that kind of business traveller.

[Andy McDonald]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The carbon footprint that we all imprint upon this planet is a vital issue, and she makes that point eloquently.

Ministers have admitted in the House of Commons that new investment in both rail infrastructure and new rolling stock on the east coast will come through taxpayer-funded support and not from franchisees. Funding for the 2014-19 upgrade of the east coast main line will be delivered through the Office of Rail Regulation approving a £240 million increase in the value of Network Rail’s regulatory access base. Regardless of whether the refranchising of the east coast main line goes ahead, the public, through Network Rail, will still be paying for the track. We will still be paying for the rolling stock, and we will still be paying for any upgrades, extensions or electrification that might ensue. None of the upgrades is dependent on whether the trains going along the track are painted Virgin red or Stagecoach orange. There is no deadline by which the franchise must take place, except, of course, the next election.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The ideology in this debate is clearly not on the Labour side, as is shown by the speeches we have heard. What is puzzling many of my constituents is why it is somehow so urgent to put the east coast line out to franchise now, when East Coast is working well and when the franchise process for the west coast main line was such a disaster so recently. It sounds like the answer is ideology.

A couple of misconceptions have arisen in the debate so far. One of the previous speakers suggested that refranchising would fund improvements such as electrification, but during the past few years Network Rail has made infrastructure investment from public money. It is clear that refranchising will not bring about that kind of investment. I also say to the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) that, instead of perpetuating the notion that somehow East Coast is uniquely expensive, if he took his Government’s advice to benefit claimants and became “digital by default” he could considerably reduce fares by booking in advance. That is no different from the situation with any of the other rail operators.

There is now a good argument for looking at the situation. I am sure the Minister will say, as some Government Members have already said, “Oh, but the Labour Government were going to refranchise.” We learn from experience, and we have learned that there is no inherent reason why a publicly operated railway company cannot make a success of things. One reason for that is that such a company will be operated not by some anonymous Department, but by rail professionals; it will not be run from the Department for Transport. Those rail professionals are clearly motivated to make things work, which is why we are seeing the improvements that we feel are happening on the east coast line.

The time has now come for us to look again at some of the assumptions that were made at the time of privatisation.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am sorry; I do not think I have time to give way.

There was a view that the track should be separated from the trains and that the network should all be split up. However, we know from the McNulty report that the unit cost of railways in this country is 40% higher than in countries in Europe where there are publicly owned, integrated rail services. The time has come not to be ideological about this issue, nor even defensive about what anybody’s Government did in the past, but to look at what is actually happening out there.

In the first instance, we should say of the east coast line, “No, we will not put this out to franchise again at this stage. There is no need to do so.” Secondly, we should look at the whole process and analyse what is happening. Thirdly, we should perhaps look again at having an integrated rail system—

[Dr William McCrea (in the Chair)]

Order.

Oral Answers to Questions

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It would be premature at this stage to give the sort of assurances he wants, because it is part and parcel of the whole issue of capacity in the south-east and so is a matter for the Davies commission as part of its wider inquiry into the future of airports and capacity.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

In answer to an earlier question from my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), the Secretary of State said that he made decisions based on evidence. Why is that not being applied in relation to the east coast franchising, given that we have had two failures of the private sector and now experience of a good service?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The evidence was supported by the fact that we have seen huge growth in the railways since privatisation 20 years ago. Since then, there have been 13 years of Labour Government, and they did not reverse it—in fact, they enhanced and pushed forward the franchising. The last Labour Secretary of State said that franchising was a good thing. I believe he was right and that passengers benefit from it.

Railways

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I am trying to answer my hon. Friend’s question. His second point is also absolutely right. As he knows—and as Labour desperately tries to forget—since privatisation the number of passengers using our rail network has doubled, the number of journeys on our rail network has doubled, the standards have improved noticeably—but there is still some way to go to get even better quality and standards for passengers—and the investment in the infrastructure to improve the quality of the journeys has increased. It is incredible that, although the Labour party pays lip service to a good, efficient rail system, in 13 years of the last Labour Government there were just 10 extra miles of electrification on the network, yet in the first three years of this coalition Government there have been 850 extra miles of electrification.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Gentleman has had his turn, so I suggest he sits down. I will now give way to the hon. Lady, and then I will make progress.

[Sheila Gilmore]

If our system is so much better than the European systems that have more state control, why is it that Members, including on the Government Benches, have been saying that the costs here are too great? Is there, perhaps, some relationship between the costs under a privatised system as opposed to the costs under a state-run system?

[Mr Burns]

I think I am in a better position than the hon. Lady to know what my hon. Friends say, as I probably mix with them more frequently than she does. They are impressed that since privatisation the number of passengers using the rail network has doubled, the number of rail journeys has doubled and the amount of freight on rail, and off our congested roads, has increased by 60%. They want continued investment in infrastructure to improve the quality of journeys and to improve rolling stock and track electrification so that people can travel around this country by rail far better than under British Rail. As someone who, sadly, is old enough to remember British Rail, I find it incredible that so many—almost dinosaurs—on the Opposition Benches seem to have a rose-tinted view of how fabulous it was. It was not.

I turn to the safety aspects of the package, which are important and are of major interest to the various sectors in the UK rail transport chain. In consultation with stakeholders, we are giving full consideration to their implications. The proposal to move from a two-part safety certificate to a single-part certificate is welcome as a simplification of the existing process. We expect it to lead to a significant reduction in the costs and regulatory burdens for railway undertakings. It will especially benefit those who operate cross-border services.

However, we need to look carefully at the justification for the extension of powers for the European rail agency to issue the single safety certificate, and we need to understand how it supports market opening objectives. Enhancement of the agency’s powers for audit and inspection of national safety authorities will change its current role. It is a fundamental shift away from a partnership role to a policing function. We are not convinced that those powers are necessary given the high level of co-operation already achieved between the majority of national safety authorities. We will ask the European Commission for further clarity about how any issues exposed will be resolved.

The communication includes proposals for a recast of the interoperability directive for railways. The Commission believes that there are problems with the authorisation process for rail vehicles, especially when the vehicle is intended for use in more than one member state. It refers to delays and costs reported by operators to the Commission owing to vehicles sitting idle in sidings awaiting authorisation from national safety authorities. To solve the problem, the Commission proposes a recast of the directive and changes to the authorisation process. A key change would be that the applicant applied to the European rail agency instead of the national safety authorities for authorisation of their vehicle.

Removal of powers from national safety authorities to the agency will change their role. The three safety authorities in the UK—the Office of Rail Regulation, the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission and the Department for Regional Development in Northern Ireland—will no longer be able to issue those authorisations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

There is actually something slightly surreal about this debate. So often in this Chamber we hear diatribes from Government Members about how Europe is trying to tell us what to do and interfering in how we do things. We now seem to have a situation in which the Government and many—although not quite all—Back Benchers who have spoken, seem to be happy for us to impose on countries in Europe our view of how railways should be run.

I raised this issue earlier today and perhaps the Minister will answer this time. It seems slightly odd that the McNulty report—which has been mentioned particularly by Conservative Back-Benchers—said that the cost of running the railways seems to be much higher in Britain than in European countries that have a higher degree of state rail operations. If that is the case, why do we suggest that our system is so much better?

In any event, why does Europe have to impose a one-size-fits-all proposal? Why not allow national Governments to have the choice? We are not necessarily arguing that countries must choose to run all their railways publicly. Apart from anything else, a comparator is extremely useful. In politics, we do not often get a chance to see different ways of doing things at the same time, in similar economic circumstances. A comparator allows us to say that one thing works and that another does not.

The five years since East Coast was set up by Directly Operated Railways to run the service have been helpful in that regard. We have learned a considerable amount. The Minister is fond of telling us, as he has today, what Lord Adonis and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said five years ago, but we must learn from what happens. The Secretary of State said earlier today that we must base our decisions on evidence. We now have evidence. In the light of the evidence, it is right to say that we perhaps want to do things in a different way. That is not unreasonable, especially for a Government who have turned semi-circles and circles and done U-turns in a shorter time than five years—they turned on the pasty tax and the caravan tax within months. It is reasonable, after five years, to say that any EU country should be able to choose to have directly operated services. They might want both directly operated services as well as franchises. Why not have both?

East Coast is making an important contribution to our environmental ambitions by making the service more attractive, particularly to people in Scotland, who have the alternative of flying—they are not a captive market. East Coast has made the service more attractive by extending services. It has an early morning service—a fast runner—and an evening service that enables people to get back after a late meeting. It offers a service to business customers and those who are able to take advantage of the first class service. Because of that, they might say, “I’m going to take the train rather than fly.” That is very important environmentally.

Rising Cost of Transport

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am coming on to say something about bus companies, but I will not comment on individual contracts that are being negotiated, as it would be wholly wrong of me to do so.

I want passengers to get the best deal from a ticket system that is easy to understand, and that is why we have set up the fare and ticketing review. This is not about higher fares; it is about simpler fares. It is not about catching out passengers who have to travel when trains are busiest, but getting good deals for people when there are seats to spare. Taxpayers, whether they use trains or not, all contribute to the cost of running the railway. I know that when people face big bills and tough times they really feel the pressure of higher fares. That is why we are looking at ideas such as smart ticketing and more flexible season tickets, so that they only have to pay when they actually need to travel. The way we work is changing and it is right that tickets change too.

This Government are on the side of passengers, whether they use trains or buses. That is why we have protected free bus travel for pensioners and are putting in place a level playing field so that operators can compete to bring fares down. The basic truth, however, is that the cost of bus travel has risen, including during the decade to 2010 under the Labour Government, and that is mainly due to higher operator costs, such as fuel.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am sorry, but I must make some progress.

From the first day of the coalition Government, our priority has been to tackle the deficit that we inherited, to rebalance our economy, to get people back to work and to boost growth. Transport plays a key part in that process. This Government have capped fare rises. We are getting the investment in, tackling overcrowding, increasing seats and services, and delivering High Speed 2. It is the right deal for passengers and the right deal for Britain’s future.